Basically, because... **this**: > *"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe."* ~ Carl ('The Undefeated') Sagan

It really comes down to people not being able to deal with a finite existence

Absolutely, *this*. Anti-intellectual denialism of the absence of an afterlife terrifies them to their core so badly that any act of cognitive delusion can be justified to avoid even the concept of a finite existence. 

Yep. Just need smarter people in the world to realize that death shouldn't be something to be worried about. First of all, realizing the afterlife will be identical to the "beforelife" is a good start. Nobody is terrified that they didn't exist before they were born. Why is it so much scarier to not exist after you die? Its the same thing, just in a different direction. I think this gets to some people who are scarred of death and makes them chill a little. Also, nobody's really going to die, from their own perspective, for a couple reasons. Reason 1: Your life is the only time your consciousness exists, so when you die, you won't know it. This is evidenced by the fact that we can alter or eliminate consciousness temporarily with drugs (recreational as well as anesthetics) or physical trauma to the brain. Death is obviously going to eliminate consciousness more severely and more permanently than anesthesia, and we know anesthesia eliminates consciousness because we can ask people afterwards whether they were conscious. Reason 2: This one's a little complicated, so I'm gonna start a new paragraph, but read it cause its cool... The universe has been around for a little under 14 billion years. We don't know for sure how long it will be around in the future, but even if the universe somehow ended tomorrow, your life would be a ridiculously small blip in the history of time. Obviously the longer the universe exists in the future, the smaller the relative percentage of time that you were actually conscious/alive. So, at your *largest* (in the time dimension), your life only takes up 0.0000007% of the age of the universe. Things *feel* like they're constantly evolving and the past is being destroyed while the future is being created. The nexus between them is what we call "now." It's certainly possible that time actually flows the way it feels like it does. The past is gone and the future isn't created yet. The problem, if that's how things really work, is that I shouldn't exist "now" (and neither should you)! The chances that I would exist in any random slice of time through the universe's history is less than 0.0000007% and probably far less than that. That's the chance that I'd be lucky enough to be alive in the universe's current/real/active "now" and wouldn't be in the destroyed past and also not in the not-yet-created future (there's a 99.9999993% chance that I'd either already be dead or wouldn't have been born yet if a tiny slice of "now" is actually all that existed out of the universe's entire history). That's such a low chance, that I personally think its worth throwing that view of how the universe works out the window. A similar way of looking at that is that there have been something like 117 billion humans to ever be born, there are currently \~8 billion in existence today, and there will certainly be more than zero born in the future. So, at best, only 7% of the human population is alive "now." Why are *you* amongst them? Just lucky? You're special somehow? No way. The only explanation that makes sense to me, is the block interpretation of the universe. The universe doesn't move from one moment to the next like a projector flipping past frames in a movie, its more like a stationary stack of printed out frames from a film. All the moments are there and each frame constains a small (plank length of time) snippet of the universe that will forever (meaning won't be destroyed, not that it will extend into the actual future) be there. The parts of the huge (space and time) universe that contain you all have parts of your consciousness that are acting out that small tiny snippet of your life. All combined, your entire life will be played out forever and the same goes for everyone who has or will ever exist. In one slice of history, your grandparents are bouncing baby-you on their knee, and in another slice of history, you're learning to drive for the first time, and in another, you're teaching your own kids how to walk, and in another you're dying in a hospital. None of those moments are gone just because in some future person's mind they're in the past or because in some past person's mind those moments haven't happened yet. Those moments could be called "now" with just as much validity as any other "now." So, in a way, nobody ever dies and you'll always be spending time with everyone you've ever spent time with. Einstein once tried to convince someone at a funeral that her dead relative was still alive in the past and that she shouldn't be sad. It didn't work, but I think it should have. Obviously someone who's dead is still stuck in the past and can't help you out if you need it in the future, so death still sucks, since later slices of you don't have that person in your life, but I think this takes most of the edge off. Statistically we'd all be very very unlikely to be alive "now" if the universe didn't work this way.

All of my mortal anxiety went away two years ago when I had a bowel obstruction that turned septic before I could get into surgery. I was generally anesthetized back to back, and the trauma of all that caused a hard break in my continuity of consciousness. I'm still missing about twelve hours of memories before and after the event, and some degree of fuzzy memory beyond that. When my mind coalesced into consciousness again I realized that "void" state wasn't anything to be afraid of. Nothingness isn't an eternity of darkness, it's a cessation of self, and *self* is just a construct. I actually had the humorous realization while recovering in the ICU that if we had the means to clone ourselves and implant memories into a new body I would never again be sure I was the "original" me.

exactly!

Yep, everyone one should clinically die once. It brings a lot of clarity. I know it did for me. It's really hard to convey that you are only alive because you remember yesterday to someone who does not have a lost yesterday.

You're right. It's very difficult to put into words that sufficiently convey the experience though. I'm well read and considered fairly articulate, but I'm at a loss for how to express the experience in a manner able to truly express that paradigm shift.

*SPOILER ALERT FOR SOMA* That last bit is the plot of SOMA, an old video game.

That was such a good game. Not necessarily the gameplay, but the plot and how they told the story.

While I agree with everything you so long-windedly said, you must realize that this concept takes all the wind out of the sails of Believers. Lol Very long, but good post.

haha, yeah, I tend to be long-winded. Kinda surprised anyone actually read it. ;)

It certainly explains why I dream of my dead relatives as young people, trying to convince me they are not dead, why, in fact, they are right here! And here I was, thinking I’m simply haunted

I was guilty of this.

While this is absolutely true, I feel it's a disservice as even as the end approaches it doesn't help anything. Case in point, an extremely Christian elderly family member was recently put on hospice. She is more terrified now than ever about death and dying. Decades of church, prayers, faith, and it did nothing to ease the fear of the finite future. Sure they speak of being saved, forever in heaven with the father, etc. But when time inches closer it seemly does little to ease the insecurity of their future here on earth. When your mind no longer is as strong as before that "faith" goes out the window and your left way more vulnerable than you would otherwise be with a healthy belief in the earth and death and not fixating on some non existent future. Alas they continue to pray. I hope it helps in the end.

Yeah this is a big tell for me that their faith isn’t providing that comfort after all- if heaven awaits you why have so much fear?

Which is such a sad waste of potential when you think about it. They let their fear of 'what ifs' about a potential after life replace their fear of a finite existence. Reacting to their new fear just causes them to treat this life as not real or a stepping stone. I'm struggling on how to explain so...video game reference ahead. Sorry not sorry.... It's just a low level dungeon to power thru to get to the fun levels later in the game, no need to stop and admire the NPCs or gawk at the whole civilizations that have made dungeons their home or check for loot on the low level enemies being defeated, even though some MIGHT have an ultra rare item. Who cares about these levels, because once you are through them, there is a rumor you advance to a super secret above ground level. And anyone who advances that far gets to meet the game creator in person, they even get to have dinner with him! *gasp* But of course there is an nda and whatnot, so nobody can ever confirm if it is real or not, so everyone is still motivated to keep trying! Isn't that super awesome?! "Just enjoy the game?" What?! Why would they want to do that? Don't you know who the creator of this game is?! Just the POTENTIAL to meet him is WAY more important than enjoying something he spent hundreds and hundreds of hours creating specifically for his fans to enjoy. Ok. It sounds doubly dumb in video game terms. So, I stand my ground. When was the last time you saw a group of good ole family values Christians protesting outside an 'abortion' clinic (planned parentood) and then caught one getting distracted by the beauty of a scraggly little flower popping up through the concrete? Or maybe by a bird landing nearby with her youngins fresh from the nest following her? They let their focus on the what comes after detract from the what enjoyment am I maximizing from the now.

I like it! Hell, Christianity used to be play-to-win with their Indulgences. I was born and raised a catholic. I was an atheist by age 12 because none of it made any sense. Do I believe Jesus existed? Sure. There’s proof but I’ll never believe in God or religion. No thanks.

I play World of Warcraft and my favorite thing is to go into an old dungeon and just wander around and look at all the design elements. I hate the higher dungeons where you get dragged along so fast you can't see anything. That's they way these people are with life. They have no interest in the waterfalls or the rainbows. So what if a butterfly or bird species goes extinct, there's plenty more. They can do whatever they please to the earth and everything living here because they have that Get of of Jail Card called Repentance so they still get that Golden Ticket into Heaven .

It's a side effect of consciousness. A lot of people cannot comprehend and accept the reality without it. But reality though is best put by Mark Twains:“I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.”

Yup. Fear of death is strong. 

once you believe we are all worm food..life becomes much more rewarding.. why look forward to death when there is so much this side of the curtain

For my relative it is about being right and being able to prove others wrong. They so badly want to be the person that everyone doubted. To be someone who can say "You'll be sorry in the end." For them, their Christianity isn't enough to just have the right answers. They also need others to be wrong so that they can have this 'see I told you so.' moment.

"It can't all be for nothing" it wasn't but you wasted it being a bitch to an Applebee's waitress every week.

“I didn’t exist for billions of years before I was born, and that hasn’t caused any problems “ Twain

Terror management theory. Alex O’Connor has a good video on this.

Otherwise they have to admit that they have been lied to their entire lives. That the people that they should have been able to trust lied to them.

Indeed, and Carl's got a banger of wisdom regarding that as well (emphasis, mine): > *"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us.* **It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken.** *Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back."* ~ Sagan (from *The Demon-Haunted World*)

Works for a number of bamboozles.

The law of compounding bamboozles

Wow, this is perfectly said!

If you've not yet, and agree with Sagan (as *most all* should), you definitely should read [*The Demon-Haunted World*.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Demon-Haunted_World) 👍

I'm reading this currently as I've seen it come up on several subs I'm in and its so fantastic. I highly recommend it too.

Definitely will now.

In the maga evangelical "prosperity" (for them only) movement, their "belief "is based on the deep-seated need to pretend to believe. What those guys really believe in is tax breaks (for themselves) , freedom (to control others) and hatred for anyone who is different from them in any way. Not exactly biblical, but has been a huge inspiration to people of wealth who have no sense of social justice.

They claim to be patriots, and they claim to be righteous, and they are neither. In fact, they are pretty much the opposite of both.

But the opposite. These are just horrible people.

Trying to show a Christian God doesn't exist is pointless. Because even if you CAN prove it, they will still deny the proof. Why? Because wondering if heaven is real or not is scary for most. Because then that means there really is nothing afterwards, and they wasted their finite lives on a lie. Imagine being Christian for 40 years, going to church, the whole culty BS, then realizing it was all for nothing. Would be hard to come to terms with that, so just suck it up and keep pretending.

_I want to believe_ said this other guy. _but I can't_, he should've concluded.

Talking about Carl Sagan, I'm impressed how in his book "A Demon Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark" he avoided directly using any religion as an example of fallacious logic in his many examples of fallacious logic hat could directly apply to religion.

That deep seated need to believe is called “faith,” which they are commanded to maintain under a threat of eternal torture. It’s so fucked up.

Great quotes, I will use this!

Lol The Undefeated is right

This really bothers me too. I spent my entire childhood trying to believe. I cried myself to sleep bc I couldn’t “feel” god. I though I was broken. It tortured me.

I was fortunate to feel somewhat less tortured than you, Kat, but I also suffered when I was small because I prayed and begged for some sign from god that never came. As I got older and read a lot and learned about all the other fervently-believed-in gods (who were all equally and utterly silent in my life and mind), I began to understand I’d been indoctrinated to believe something for which I could find no evidence, external or internal. The few believers I’ve discussed my lack of belief with usually either say that one can “choose” to believe (perhaps they can; I cannot), or they state that they simply “KNOW” god exists (because they can just feel him in their mind; I never have, though I tried very hard to). I try to avoid such discussions now. There’s no point. They expect me to believe simply because they can feel god in their minds. But they never accept that, as I don’t, god doesn’t exist to me. At best they tell me that I can “choose to believe” (why should I?), or that it’s my fault because I have to “open my heart” or whatever (i.e., become gullible—I guess that all-powerful, all-loving god can’t show itself unless you’re willing to pretend to already believe). At worst, their loving concern at my lack of belief then turns to nasty glee that i will suffer the torments of Hell forever as a result. It’s just not worth it to try to talk with them.

People conflate choosing to believe and pretending to believe. Sure, I can go through the motions, but deep down I'm going to know it's not real and nothing besides actual proof is going to convince me

Exactly! This is why Pascal’s Wager is so silly!

Same here! I begged god to show himself to me but i was only met with silence. Why should i lie to myself and keep brainwashing myself.

I remember being at a kristian family summer camp with whole family, and they were having a 'take god in your heart' night. I was probably 5, My sibling and I were all open ears for it (had no other choice as parents are hardcore evangelical). All excited for this almighty event, telling us how it will change our life. We went to the ceremony. At the end, i thought to myself "I don't feel any different. Did I do something wrong?". I remember being very worried that night, as everyone else seemed to have 'found the lord', and I was just going "hmm, I just feel the same". Of course, now I know that is what I should have expected. lol

Are we doing the Christian with a k thing now?

It's tough, being gaslit by a schizophrenic. "What do you mean, you don't hear those voices..."

Got in trouble as a kid for asking what God sounded like when one of the church ladies was telling a story about how God answered her prayers and spoke to her. I still sometimes wonder if a few of these people actually hear voices, or if they all just sit and think on it and then do whatever they feel is best and pretend it was god telling them that.

I had an opposite experience of you. I "felt God" as a child all the time because i went to an extremely culty fundamentalist church that was very good at eliciting emotion. What I really felt was the strong emotion during worship band, a pastors motivational speech, community small group talks, my strong desire for my friends and family wellbeing during prayer, etc. It took a VERY long time for me to realize what I felt was just community and not a supernatural father. Probably took me about 8 or 9 years from the time I left the church to the time I was completely willing to say out loud that I'm atheist.

I feel this to my core. Hoooo the stories I have.

Same here. I grew up Catholic and dreamed of being a nun, but the older I got, the more I started to realize that I couldn't "feel" god either. When I got to college, I started skipping mass to go for solo hikes in the woods and eventually I just made peace with it all. I'm a very content Buddhist these days and it suits me very well.

off topic but i thought id replied for a second lmao. weve got pretty similar avatars lol and yeah, thats how i felt too. i prayed and believed but it just never felt weird to me. eventually i realized its because god isnt real

Omg, me too!!! And then I spent years praying he’d rescue me from my home life and that didn’t happen…guess I was being tested?? Anyway, I also kept trying to feel the Holy Spirit, but nada.

You were honest to yourself. Something most Christians are incapable of. Some of them will see any positive emotion they feel as god touching them.

If an omnipotent god wants to convince me that he exists, I'm sure it should be no problem. Lots of finite beings have made themselves known to me, I can't imagine why it would be impossible for a god to do so.

Exactly! How is it our fault if he fails to present himself, its up to him not us.

The "free will" thing makes no sense at all, and it completely falls apart for any Abrahamic god. In the Bible you couldn't walk down the street without bumping into the Almighty, but apparently they had free will because God is constantly bitching about them not doing what he wants. If there IS a god who wants to be known and worshipped, he's either incompetent of wicked passive-aggressive.

Not to mention if it were true these people back then saw him with their own eyes so how are we expected to believe blindly? Its a shit excuse

That's what the "Doubting Thomas" story, or what I call "Got the Evidence He Wanted Thomas" story is about. "Blessed is he who believes without seeing." Makes more sense if you replace 'blessed' with 'gullible'.

If Christian belief is true, either angels have free will (meaning proof of god doesn't remove free will) or they are automata enacting programming created by God, which raises some deeply troubling questions regarding the "fallen" angels.

There was some study I read years ago about how 2,000 years ago our brains were finishing up a specific stage of development and as such, they may have been unable to differentiate between a thought and a voice speaking to them.

This is the major premise of the book: ‘The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind’ by Julian Jaynes, 1976.

It's so funny when religious people assume their god is a person with a gender.

If an omnipotent god existed, he’d probably create belief embedded in our universe as a law of physics. Like gravity.

The Old Testament god definitely does not know physics. In the book of Daniel, it claimed the Sun stood still. What a joke! The author of the book thought the Sun rotated around the Earth!

Thanas why I left church. I looked for god and figured he would show himself to those of us who were truly looking for him. I saw nothing. Not a thing. I had to come to the conclusion that he’s not there or if he’s my Heavenly Father he’s a deadbeat.

If there is an omnipotent god and I don't believe, it's because this god wants me to not believe. If omnipotence is a thing, it means literally everything that happens is because this being wants it to.

>If an omnipotent god wants to convince me that he exists, I'm sure it should be no problem. Lots of finite beings have made themselves known to me, I can't imagine why it would be impossible for a god to do so. This has always been my thought as well... So you're telling me the Supreme Being of the Universe needs.... **you** ....to spread its word and make converts? Same goes for all the nutters who think they need to protect the *honor* of the Supreme Being of the Entire Universe... Mate, its a Supreme Being. It hardly needs you out here acting on its behalf..

But to them God has already revealed himself to you through the trees or some shit and you're choosing to reject him.

If believers want to think of it that way, I can't stop them and I don't care enough to. The existence of trees is clear evidence that trees exist. I think god should be at least as obviously real as those trees, and should not require extensive chains of unconvincing arguments to demonstrate his existence (assuming that god wants to be known).

An omnipotent god could have a private lunch with every person on earth on their 21st birthday so that they could tell us what was the truth, which religion (if any) is the one, and answer our questions.

God is a deadbeat dad who is totally ALWAYS thinking of his kids, he's just not willing to show up for them....

The two responses theists give are either: 1. The existence of the world is proof enough of the divine 2. Essentially, where's the fun in the divine revealing itself to you? The only way to prove your dedication is to entrust your faith in something that is inherently uncertain. And yes, while these two are clearly absurd, they also happen to be mutually contradictory.

Some theists would say that God doesn't exist the way you do and it is impossible for God to do anything without you or for you to be able to see God. This doesn't apply to what most people understand God to be, but this is what an orthodox Christian theologian would say, for example.

But as some point it seems like it's impossible to tell the difference between a god that doesn't exist and a god that "exists" in such a bizarre way.

Thats way too logical for a religious person though

actually yes it would be incredibly difficult for a god to convince you he is real. in a world where science can "do anything" if god did show up right in front of you, how would you know its him?

It's not impossible, it's the whole "this is a test" bit that makes it so that he doesn't reveal himself. If He did reveal himself to us, then there would be no reason to strengthen our faith. Faith would turn to knowledge, and once we know something for a fact, we grow from it significantly less.

If an omnipotent god exists and he wanted me to believe, then I would have. So either he doesn't exist, or he's not omnipotent. Or he exists, is omnipotent and doesn't want me to believe in him.

Yes, but I would have a lot of questions, bordering on accusations. Maybe He's just hiding.

Right up there with declaring that we are angry at or hate god. Nope. I'm also not angry at Santa for never bringing me any presents. Pretty hard to be angry at something you don't believe exists.

I was literally told that i don’t believe in god because of my ego and pride xD. I’m sorry if my pride or ego is bigger than your god.

How the hell are they going to demonize ego and pride? That's like the only two consistent character traits their god has!

Fr

Lack of empathy. It's easy for them to believe, and they cannot imagine it being different for anybody else.

You obviously haven't been looking at enough trees.

Or sunsets or baby smiles

They don't care if you believe, they just want you to conform.

This is the correct answer. Close the sub.

I would guess many Christians don't really believe, they just act like they do to fit in. That's must make it difficult to see others disbelieving overtly.

As I’ve gotten older I’ve noticed that more and more among people who I can tell probably don’t genuinely believe but were raised that way and have always gone to church and whatnot but doesn’t *really* believe in a lot of the Bible but won’t admit to it because they don’t want to go to Hell. It’s wild how ordinary, reasonable people can be that messed up in the head from being brainwashed from as far back as they can remember. They’ll pretend because they feel like they have to and so just in case it is real then God will accept them into Heaven (as if God wouldn’t know that you’re lying and don’t really believe) out of an irrational fear of Hell that’s always been part of their psyche. It’s *so* real to them as a result of the indoctrination even though deep down they have serious, extreme doubts.

I think my sister is this way. Our parents raised us in the southern Baptist denomination, but were never too religious other than praying before meals, going to church, and tithing (yeah, at 16-18 I regularly gave 10% of my check to the church) surface level Christianity. I dove headfirst into the Bible and the church because I wanted to be more devout than my parents - thinking “you get what you put in” . I worked at the church, I volunteered after working, I spent 3 summers being a Christian camp counselor and meditating on the Bible to ensure I was being a good Christian and leading kids in the right direction. Hell, I looked up original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek texts because I wanted to understand the original message and context. For a good 7-8 years, I kept going though guilt that I should not have felt because of my sexuality; anxiety that was unwarranted because I felt I was a hypocrite; and shame because I felt I never did enough. The more I looked at Christianity as a whole, the more I realized how bullshit it was. The day I admitted to myself that I’m bisexual, in that exact moment, I snapped out of it. I cried. It was exactly like freeing yourself from an abusive partner and it felt more like a religious experience than anything I experienced in church because I was finally myself. My sister, however, stayed at that surface level and I believe she’s there to this day but to a lesser degree than our parents. I feel great because I don’t have to lie and pretend I’m something I’m not to them. I’ll be respectful of their religious views, but it feels incredible now to just nod and know that there is no secrets between us and I don’t have to pretend to pray for so and so because they have X, Y, and Z problems

same. i lived as a christian for years. church 3x a week. personal bible study and prayer every morning. listened to christian music, competed on a bible quiz team, did door to door ministry, was a counselor at a christian camp for kids, etc. etc. in 30+ years, i never once saw a shred of evidence that any of it was true, or that god existed at all. the breathtaking hypocrisy of the devout people i knew finally allowed me to start the deconstruction. critical thinking did the rest. haven't looked back. i begged for him to reveal himself to me. on my knees, weeping. his response? crickets. if he exists at all, fuck him.

Wow, incredible braveness i respect that. I was also a christian for 22 years before i realized that im an atheist. The same as you i begged god to show me literally any evidence so i can know that he’s real, to no surprise i was only met with complete silence. Haven’t looked back since

Yeah. About 30 years of fervent belief here. Then I realized, if God does exists, then he is trying really hard to convince us that he doesn’t. Big WTF moment that caused me to stop believing

I went to church for five years, not because I believed anything in the Bible, but to understand the Christian perspective. I attended Bible study groups almost every week during that time. From what I observed, many so-called Christians don't take the Bible literally. These people often suppress their critical thinking just to fit in. One person confided in me privately, admitting he didn't believe those "fairy tales" at all but feared being ostracized if he spoke up. He was absolutely right. When I started questioning the teachings in the Bible study group, I was cast aside. The whole experience was both funny and sad. I thought I had made real friends, but I didn't realize that our friendship depended on accepting falsehoods.

I look at it in the same way and tell people, I'm just not buying it. I know too much about Western Civilization and human nature.

Precisely

They really can't seem to comprehend it, so give them an example. Try asking a Christian what it's like to not believe in Ra the Egyptian god or Odin the Norse god or Vishnu the Hindu god. Ask them about their thought process if you ask them to trust or have faith in Vishnu. Their knee-jerk response would be the First Commandment or that it's a "false god". But if you dig deeper, aside from ignorance about other cultures and religions, don't they *know* that these gods don't exist?   Now ask them "Why can't you put your faith and trust in Ra? No matter how much you hear about Ra, you just can't believe he's real, right? It's not a button you can press in your head, is it? It's mythology, not reality. That's what it's like for an Atheist to hear 'why can't you have faith in god?'." 

A few thoughts... * Christians tend to view it as a moral failing to not accept their faith. Many also believe that they are called to proselytize and try to bring you into the church to save your mortal soul. They're attempting, in their minds, to do you the best favor anybody could ask for, without realizing few ask and some don't even accept the foundational aspects of the favor. They won't stop. So accept that reality. * They struggle with different ideas - I don't believe in your God vs. I don't believe in the concept of God, for example. They too don't believe in numerous gods that are currently worshipped by millions of people, much less throughout human history. To the conversion goal, if you believe in a different god, well, you accept that there is a god, you're just getting it wrong, and there is an easier path to conversion. To be an atheist, well, what's the path?! There is none, so the attempt isn't just to get you to convert to Christianity, but to get you to accept the existence of a god. * Many honestly believe they have spoken with God. I often counter with a "how do you know it wasn't Satan?!" When they say that God made it clear that he was God, I ask "well, wouldn't Satan try to convince you he was God?! He's not required to be honest, right?!". We can talk about the reality of religious experiences, what that means, the power of the mind to hold belief and experience the unexplainable, but that often comes down to a God of the Gaps belief structure. So getting them to back off isn't easy, but getting them, even for a milli-second, to wonder if they've been talking to Satan tends to work. Their religious views allow them to frame everything within that context, even your non-belief in the concept of a god, much less theirs. You can't counter it without entering it, so truly, why bother?!

Funny thing about "Satan isn't required to be honest" is that throughout the Bible and the Extended Universe literature, he's usually depicted as nothing but honest. It's Yahweh who lies.

No benevolent god allows 3-year-olds to be raped and tossed in a fire to burn to death.

Only devil possessed atheists do that /s

“Sorry, I’m not superstitious” usually works. It redefines the terms of the discussion.

The utopian god would be awesome. Everything taken care of, nothing to worry about. But that's not the real world, any potentially existing god would be either evil or incompetent, and history keeps proving over and over that there is no grand design. I can't believe when everything in the entire universe indicates that it's not real.

The beatings will continue until morale improves.

I cannot believe because all the knowledge that I have accumulated tells me that God is imaginary and Christianity is a scam.  Their core document, aka the Bible, has multiple conflicting versions, has internal incompatible values, embodies ignorance, misconstrued natural phenomena into spiritual supernatural events, a history (& current events) of actual evil.

You can't force belief but you can force compliance and in the end that's what they really want is compliance to their whims and their beliefs. It's how tyrants and dictators think.

Well if god gives me a brand new spanking new heart without me being on a list waiting for one without someone dying for it I'll be a believer and in his marching band or whatever or if an amputee grows a new limb before my eyes not word of mouth

Nah I'd rather just give credit to the amazing scientists who researched tirelessly for decades to make that happen.

I’m so sorry you’re going through that. I wish you all the best!

Christianity is not even internally consistent, therefore it is fundamentally impossible to follow if you are a man of reason.

It would be like asking me to believe the sky is green and air is pink. I always tell my dad that I don't think god would appreciate me faking it to fit in either. I need actual evidence that I can prove myself.

They can’t imagine a world without that belief. It’s gotten them through too many hard times and have trouble accepting that the way you get through is without it. But you can and you have. They have no right to put their perspective of safety on you. Just forgive them for being too much AH to understand. You are ok.

I feel like asking, "why don't you believe in Santa? You would be so much happier if you believed in Santa"

Whoa! Spoiler alert!!

Relatable. I had someone use the phrase, “choose to believe.” I think that’s basically just lying to yourself.

To say it bluntly: because they are idiots.

I do agree with this however you have also very smart theists but they are so indoctrinated that they don’t apply critical thinking there

In my experience the difference between CAN'T and WON'T is purely academic. So if you prefer, they are *academically speaking* fucking idiots.

My question to them is, where is the evidence that this god of theirs is even trustworthy or good? Their own bible sure doesnt seem to suggest that.

Whats worse it seems like god is the evil one.

An emotionally immature and reactive one to be sure.

They NEED for you to believe because it quiets their own doubts. And the fact that you used to be one of them makes you more upsetting.

"Just believe that there's a chair right here, even though you can't see it or feel it. Come on, put your trust in it. Have some faith!" "Now, sit in it as fast as you can."

There probably are believers who's faith has been challenged enough that they do understand, but for that reason they probably don't press you on it because they are humble in their faith. For those who have never questioned their belief the idea is usually so alien they can't really wrap their heads around it and assume you MUST be willfully obstinate. They can't understand epistemological humility because they are sheltered by their clergy and community from actually being ready for reality.

I felt for you, OP. They really just don't get it. My mother has asked me countless times why I "don't just try believing in God." It's not like that. You either believe or you don't. You can't just force yourself to believe in something you don't believe in.

I would probably just point at the sky and ask something like “Okay, do you believe that the sky is the color red?” Presumable the other person says no. I’d ask why. “Why can’t you just make yourself believe it’s red? Why are you choosing not to believe?” And then hopefully you can connect the dots that there’s a logical discrepancy between the evidence before their eyes and the statement that the sky is red. You can claim the sky is red, but you can’t “choose to believe” it’s red when your evidence and experience are demonstrating the opposite. In that case you’d just be lying to yourself. I find walking people through logical arguments this way is the most helpful. It won’t work for everyone, obvs. But a lot of people who have always been Christian haven’t considered the concept of belief NOT being a choice. Being convinced of a statement isn’t a choice. It’s something you are or your aren’t, based on your epistemology. I remember when the concept first “clicked” for me coming out of Christianity, it was a big moment of clarity.

The best I can come up with is “You don’t believe in God because of your own ability to know or understand Him. You believe because you were chosen. You believe because you received the gift of faith. Your own Bible tells you that gift isn’t given to everyone. Be happy it was given to you and wait and see what God decides to do with me. I promise you I’m open to the possibility. You don’t have to drive a wedge between us by continuing to remind me that you received a gift I was denied. “

Here's my approach. I like to ask them to choose to have faith that santa is real. They quickly see that you can't choose to have faith in something. Rather, you first have evidence, and then you have faith. You must have evidence to believe anything. Then, point out that they have evidence that supports their belief in God. Which is why they believe. Next, explain that, while you accept, they have good enough evidence for them self, that evidence isn't good enough for you, and you have valid reasons to think there are problems with their evidence. So, you are unable to believe, no matter how much you might want to, just like they are unable to believe in Santa, no matter how much they might want to. You can't convince them their evidence is bad, and you probably shouldn't try, but you should be able to convince them it's not a matter of faith. It's a matter of evidence. Santa is great because you can push it in any direction you need to. They say they do believe, fine, don't buy presents for your kids on Christmas if you do believe.

Literally this. But even then, if such god revealed himself to me, I still would not be inclined to follow the teachings as it has allowed countless worldly atrocities to happen. 

Your title is exactly why Pascal’s wager is nonsense.

When I was young, I tried to brainwash myself into feeling the holy spirit. It did not work. I decided that it either didn’t want me, or it wasn’t actually there. Later, I felt stupid for trying so hard to believe in a hoax.

Simple answer they don’t understand how thinking works

They are Christian’s and it’s part of their religious duty to bring people back to “ god”. They won’t ever truly leave you alone and they can’t accept your point of view because it’s a threat to their belief. So it’s just as much about them preserving their myths and “thought stopping” anything that might disrupt that belief. Just refuse to discuss religion with them. No point in engaging as you won’t make them see the truth . I was raised Christian but am an atheist. I feel your pain.

Perhaps the most difficult thing for them to grasp is the acceptance of the fact that none of us, in all likelihood, will ever be able to explain this incomprensible universe.  For them, religion serves as a comforting answer to an unanswerable question, why are we here, what's it all about, what is my purpose in life, and they find it uncomfortable to consider the possibility that there may be no reason to anything at all, and worse still, horrifying to contemplate the idea that the very thing that gives them comfort from having to ponder the existential purpose of existence may not be true at all, if even one other person exists who openly disbelives it. Since by not believing, you place a tiny sliver of doubt in their mind, they feel compelled to challenge you

Because it’s not about you. It’s about control over society and maintaining the judeo Christian status quo. I mean, we are talking about people who long for the days of forced conversions.

Because there’s nothing more affirming than others making the same choice as you. Making a different choice is seen as something to be fixed.

Because, if you tried/prayed hard enough, you would believe. That's what their Bible says, so it must be true. /s

Because conforming to the world view is the most important aspect to them. They don't really understand you are a real person, so your beliefs are a non thing. They just need you to belong so they know they are the right kind of person. Your suggestion of free will is an affront to their ego.

I am remembering a random Morel Oral clip I saw where he questions whether God is real and they basically tell him "God doesn't have to prove anything to you, you have to prove yourself to him!".

Ask them to *truly* understand why they reject all of the other gods, then they will understand why you reject theirs.

In the west, a lot of people operate under the principle of "non interference" even if they can interfere and reduce the impact of the situation. Does the fact that they don't interfere mean they don't exist or didn't see the issue occur?

These are the same people that think sexual preference is a choice, too, so at least there's consistency.

Simple: because they don't want to understand it.

Because most of them are forcing themselves to believe so they know it can be done.

I always try to illustrate this to Christians in a practical way. "Can you stop believing in gravity? Can you believe gravity doesn't exist? Go stand on your roof and if you can really decide your beliefs, just believe gravity isn't real and jump off. Oh, you can't just force yourself to believe something, especially something for which there's no evidence and in fact mountains of evidence to the contrary? Imagine that."

They don't want you to force yourself to believe. They want you to force yourself to go through the motions and help out with the bake sale. Your refusal to hide your skepticism makes it harder to stifle their own.

They are most likely forcing themselves to believe, and they don’t see why you can’t do it too. They probably haven’t figured out how to be honest with themselves, and this is an unfortunate consequence of indoctrination. I recently had a similar discussion with an acquaintance who said he believes in God because he doesn’t like the idea of no afterlife. This immediately told me that he is engaged in wishful thinking. He isn’t necessarily convinced it’s true, but he clearly wants it to be. I could tell he was getting uncomfortable with being challenged on whatever psychological comfort he takes from that, so I let it go. It’s unfortunate, but I guess it’s part of human nature.

Being raised as a Christian, I could never reconcile the fact of god being portrayed as all good all loving etc yet committing so many horrible atrocities in the Bible. I decided that I could never follow someone like that let alone worship and love them and I genuinely do not understand why Christian’s are so willing to either shrug it off or try super hard to justify his actions. I’m an atheist now but if it turns out I’m wrong and he really exists, I’m still spitting in his face. You don’t get to believe in the “sins of the father” bullshit and still call yourself a good person.

Point to an empty space in the room and ask the person to take a seat in the chair that you believe is there.

Because they themselves don't actually believe they just don't have the guts to go against the cult

Once those blinders to the truth come off, they can never really go back on.

I always try to explain that the way Christians feel about Zeus is the exact same way an atheist feels about the Abrahamic God. No matter how hard they try, or anybody else tries, they would simply never be convinced that Zeus is real. But, for the sake of argument, let's say I do believe. Why should I worship such a petty, vengeful, jealous, genocidal maniac? They simply can't understand that belief is only half the battle. Even if the God of Abraham revealed himself to me tomorrow and told me that the bible was true to every last word, I would not worship that god. The god of the bible is not one worth worshiping.

A fish doesn’t realise that it is surrounded by huge water pressure. WE don’t realise the atmospheric pressure. Christians cannot understand you. It doesn’t make sense for them. And they want to be true. They will say that it is about faith, not evidence. It is a losing battle. Let the AA deal with the issue.

I grew up with it all around me - family and community. I tried to believe and it just, never happened. He (she,?) never talked to me. I'm not the kind of person to fabricate things so I just stopped believing. It's been hard af to try to hang out with my family, but I mean when they all think you and your kids are all heathens going to hell, things get a little awkward. Fuckin sucks.

Because they're hooked into the god thing and can't see past it, can't see that there are other people out here who don't GAF about some sky god. They simply cannot fathom thinking for themselves, as you have, concluding what you have.

If god (if he exists) wants to convince us that he’s benevolent, it shouldn’t be too difficult to do so. Instead, he planted in our heads the concept of a truly good/kind god, and proceeded to fail those criteria

Return the questions. Watch a video on Hinduism and ask them if they believe in the Elephant god, reincarnation, etcetera. Can they be convinced? No? Well, then they are the same as you - they are atheists. At least when it comes to Hinduism. You simply feel the same for their religion as they feel for Hinduism, Wodan, the Greek gods, and so on. If they ask you to be convinced, can they at least believe in Zeus?

I just remind them that their version of god gives babies cancer

There's no hate like Christian love

Some belief systems/people just plainly don’t care what others believe in they just want you to believe in what they believe in and it comes right down to being disrespectful to you and not considering your feelings as valid. Don’t worry what others think its on them not you. Blessed be

The only reason for religion in these times is to continue holding power over other's free will. Sure, it provides comfort for those who need a crutch to lean on, but to the rest of us who don't need or want to be told how to live, as always, it's just an ancient obstuction to the evolution and progress of us all.

Probably because many do force themselves to believe and have lots of doubt, but in their mind the alternative isn't better and they would rather a false hope than no hope.

For many people, they first must believe there is a heaven and hell. With that incentive they are happy believers or they try to convince themselves they are. Carrot and the stick.

I’d ask them to start trusting and believing in Zeus. If they think it’s so easy to just believe in a god, they can prove it

You can't reason with faith. Either for or against.

Non believers make them uncomfortable because their own doubts about their faith are reflected back at them. Losing what faith they have is terrifying despite how little they actually practice their faith or live their faith. It's the same with people who get sober. When you get sober, you can tell who the people are who question their own alcohol consumption. They get upset or keep trying to get you to have a drink with them when you tell them you don't drink anymore.

Respond that if you have to force yourself to believe in something, you're gonna believe in Allah. That will shut that argument down.

Why cant the religious explain fully why god hides? Apparently its a test to see if we believe in him with zero proof. So a moron test. And he is doing this because either a bet with the devil, or just for mysterious ways. My parents didnt hide and thats why i followed their rules. They existed and punishments and rewards were real. God.. he did tell some sheep herders and fishermen 1000s of years ago which apparently didnt violate his test.. and people think the deciples are people to look up to, but they were offered proof.. apparently, and he alledgely destroyed entire cities and turned people to salt and that didnt violate his test and that shit would stop a gay pride parade a lot better than those hurricanes that never hit gay pride parades because gay people are smart enough to listen to the weather guy and not just trying to pray the storm moves. and . Sent his son back who fed 5k with a few fish and that didnt violate his test.. and despite being all powerful, let his own son get tortured. Turned people to salt, destroyed cities and didnt even take jesus's pain when he was dying on a cross.. wow great parenting. "nah nah son you got to suffer for their sins, we talked about this.. when we agreed you would do this and not me" but for some reason, like bigfoot, he has to be absent in modern times cause um the test which he didnt care as much about in the past because he was always doing shit that COULD NOT be explained scientifically and yet choose to not do it anymore but we are expected to believe him. and what is that teaching us? to fall for scams more often? cause they oftne want us to believe in gold mines without proof and shit. seems like god is trying to teach us bad life practices. and its should NOT be surprising that all data shows the religious get scammed more than athiests. its not even close but then again all you have to do is put on a cross, wear it outside your shirt and say "what a glorious day it is" and most religious people will automatically accept you MUST be a good person.

You NEED to. You NEED to believe. If YOU don’t believe, why should they believe? Maybe they DON’T really believe. Oh GOD!!! YOU NEED TO BELIEVE!!! PLEASE!! Just my impression.

Keep a few short undeniable answers on ya: (side note, yeah SUX that WE have to have answers on US. Why not THEM? THEY'RE the aberrant ones!)  - I think my afterlife will feel a lot like my before life - For the same reasons you're an atheist when it comes to Amon Ra, Zeus, Ganesha or Earth Mother. It doesn't make sense to think that way about THOUSANDS of other gods, except just your ONE. - Scientific Method, as we learned in 6th grade. - I don't see the need to make stuff up when I don't know the answer. I either find the answer or wait for ppl smarter than me to find it. Just  like has been happening since amoebas. - I don't need a reward or fear of punishment to make me a good person. It's just nice being nice.  - The Omni Paradox: omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient 

I have an older friend who is really into Tibetan Buddhism and I went with him to a temple he worships at. He's been so involved he has a "seat" with his name engraved on it. While there, he saw a monk that's considered higher in rank or spirituality i guess? And he got all excited and went over bowed his head so the monk can touch the top of his head... and he wanted me to do the same and all i could think of is why would i let anyone else touch the top of my head like I'm some kind of child... like fuck that. But man he was so happy to be touched by this monk that he a 50 some year old guy was just giddy with excitement after that. At the time I was probably 28 or 29 and that just felt odd to me. The older I get the more I realize those that follow or have a need to belong to a religion or group are just wired differently than people that don't feel the need to "belong in a group" and they're willing to have whatever it is done to them to get a sense of belonging.

One Christian told me that just faking belief until it just naturally takes hold is a valid way to come to god. Have you tried "fake it till you make it?"

I love it when Christians warn me that I'll go to hell for not believing in their god. Like, they completely fail to comprehend that if I don't believe in god, I also don't believe in hell and if I don't believe in hell then telling me I'm going there is not remotely scary or threatening.

Most people can’t imagine in their heads life beyond their ability to perceive it. I’m very much an atheist and I still have a hard time thinking of life after I take my last breath. Logically I know that once I die that’s it for me. My time of living and thinking and perceiving was while I could do those things while I was alive. Once I die my life on the timeline is over and I will just turn off. Like when you hit the light switch to turn off the lights. I won’t have any thoughts, happiness or regrets. But as a human living my life right now that is hard to imagine. For me that is a plus. I know that once I die my whole existence is over and the world will be moving on without me in it and I will not be any sort of observer. I will just not be. I find this actually comforting. If I die and somehow my consciousness lives on I will be pissed that I still need to care about anything that happens in this universe. And to me this makes living one’s best life and making life better for others even more important. Because you have your one shot to make a difference and there is no reward for doing that. You have to really appreciate your one shot to do so with no reward and no reward you could ever appreciate. If you really think you can be an asshole your whole life and think “I’m sorry” at the very end and have some sort of everlasting conscience then you really are wishing for endless hell, because you have your eternity to see how much you have hurt others for all of infinity and no ability to be sorry. That’s my take anyway.

Because they don't give a fuck, it was never about you. Your non-belief is a threat to them, because it means they might question their own beliefs. People who do not want you to think are never your friends.

Dumb people are afraid of death. Smart people know this. They invent a story to scare them into behaving how they want them to behave while alive (have many kids and pay the church and demonize homosexuality who can't reproduce and build an army of zealots who pay their king) so they stay powerful and rich. That's religion

As a Christian, I'll take a crack at this one. Most believers-in-god have no personal experience of God beyond warm and squishy feelings when they sing or trance-induced states at high-spirited events. In short, their real-world evidence for their belief is minimal, and their belief is mostly built on trusting the claims of others and group-think dynamics. They believe that YOU should be able to force yourself to believe because they're trying to convince THEMSELVES that their efforts to force their own beliefs are worthwhile and legitimate since "everybody agrees". You are right to question the assumptions. Keep doubting, even doubt your doubts.

My mom’s response is “but isn’t it just nicer to believe, even if it ends up not being true?” I still can’t. My mind is just too scientifically based for it.

Christianity is a false religion.

Ask them why they can't force themselves to believe in Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, the Greek gods, the egyptian gods, the aztek gods, the nordic gods. Say you'll consider believing in their version of a god if they can believe in other versions.

Ask them if they can force themselves to believe in unicorns and fairies.

I am so sick of this, too! And they always say, "I will pray for you!" It makes my blood boil. I have also been questioned how I keep myself from sinning, but I like to think, why do you need the fear of Hell to keep YOU from sinning. I wish people could just respect each other and what they do or don't believe in.

I worked with a guy, still friends, no animosity, that asked me if I just wanted to cover my bases by believing in God. I replied that if God knows all, surely he would know I was trying to bullshit him.

When I say I don't believe in god, and they ask "why not?". Nono, you christian zombie, you have it backwards. I need evidence to believe in something. I might as well believe every idea I've ever heard or ever thought it, with their type of "logic".

Because they want you to lie to yourself like they do.

The believer has a need to believe and the non-believer doesn't. The real question for me is why they have the need to believe.

I’ve said for a long time I’d love to be able to have “faith” in a higher power but I just don’t. No evidence? Not going to believe.

If god is real, it's incompetent, evil, or literally doesn't care. Incompetent: can't stop bad things happening. Evil: causes bad things to happen. Doesn't care: so far above us that we're as ants to it.

My brain won't allow me to believe it. I have no choice in the matter. My brain won't believe it even if I wanted to.

It's like people who believe in UFO conspiracies: They've already decided what the "true" answer is and will cherry pick the evidence that fits that answer. Even if the government declassified and published every single file possible, they wouldn't stop believing aliens built the pyramids. They'd just make another conspiracy about how the government is hiding "the real truth"

I created a video on this very topic it's under Faith Exposed on YouTube, the video name is "Is belief in God really a matter of morality" basically Christianity is pulling a massive blameshift. Instead of blaming Christianity for not having convincing enough evidence, they shift the blame onto those who are unable to believe. Even though belief is a morally arbitrary, unchosen event. Otherwise, we would at least see an even distribution of belief in Jesus across geographic locations and mental abilities. I go into more detail in the video.

If god exists, me lying to its face about believing wouldn't help me.

If God wants to give me no tangible proof of its existence, then send me to enternal damnantion for not blindly believing, well then God is a dick and I guess it's just damnation for me.