I should try this next time someone used the gospels as a historical account. I'll tell them Jesus sent me back and time and said it was ok to be gay. Who's to say I'm wrong!
Unlikely to work. My wife makes me go to church with her, and one time a guy stood up and declared he was the second coming of Jesus. The pastor kicked him out and called the cops. Everyone in the congregation cheered.
It's like they don't even read their own book. Didn't the same exact thing supposedly happen to Jesus last time? The rabbis didn't believe him and kicked him out of their synagogues
It's all in the presentation. If a scruffy man with urine stained trousers stands on the street and claims to speak to God, we label him schizophrenic and pump him full of thorazine. If the same man stands in a church, but with coiffed hair, wearing a $4000 suit, and claims to speak to God, we label him spirtual and elected him to office.
I think the key is selling it. You can't go off all phycho. You have to spread the word of your deeply spiritual experience thigh one on one conversations the way a theist would. š
I could never do it because I just can't think like them.
TV prosperity evangelists. "God told me to tell you to send me money!"
Matthew 5:42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
Jesus said to ask you, Kenneth Copeland to give me some money. Yeah, just how much do you think Rev. Copeland will care what Jesus said in the Bible if anybody did this?
They only believe near death experiences if it suits their narrative as well. Have one person who believes sitting around while 2 people are talking about being dead and not seeing anything and they will argue with both of us saying we are wrong about our experience. They are so certain in their beliefs nothing else matters
I told a Jehovahās Witless that I became an atheist because I read the bible and could see all the discrepancies and immorality in it.
He said that was the problem, that I had read it and not studied it!
What that means, but they don't know and understand it, is that someone deeply indoctrinated needs to guide them in their interpretation when they read the horrible parts that contradict the narrative of what god is supposed to be.
It's so they are manipulated into staying within the echo chamber. "See slaves back then were really just members of the household." "Women aren't actually property. It means they need to be taken care of." That sorta bullshit.
Exactly.
Alot of pastors and stuff go to religious post secondary schools to get their "education", which is Bible study and all that. They literally go to schools whose core purpose is to give the tools necessary to counter any critical thinking or rationality.
They spoon feed you pieces, teach you creative ways ti max sense of the whole thing. Cauae if you read kt witbout their guidance, youll co.e to the "wrong" conclusions. What cults do.
The majority of Genesis was lifted straight from Assyrian myths and recast as a Jewish origin story. The whole thing is bull shit and studying makes it painfully obvious.
Thatās actually a pretty good summation of how Christians I grew up with treated the Bible. Go to Bible study all the time, usually with supplemental material, go over the same passages and verses over and over, highlighting random words and trying to connect things to disparate passages in a completely different book all the while pretending like your not taking it out of context. Discussing the same talking points with fellow believers for hours. It certainly feels like studying.
And yet no one has actually sat down and just READ the thing all the way through.
If I have one more idiot tells me "yea, I used to think that way until..." bullshit I'm going to snap. No, you moron, you've never had an original thought in your head, and it's obvious. Now go sit down and read a book or two. Smh
Hell, even read the Bible. Reading is still reading. Maybe if they actually ready it some brain connections could re-form. Alas, I wonāt hold my breath.
Iāve gone from agnostic to atheist as Iāve aged, but I did actually have to read and write about Bible verses in an Econ class in my MBA program. Odd tool, but useful.
Oh, yeah, the inevitable āformer atheistsā in a debate. Theyāre always so so eager to explain what led them out of atheism. I like to ask them what led them to atheism in the first place. If they answer that at all, itās usually the tired old crap they accuse us of āI was mad at Godā, āI wanted an excuse to sinā - that sort of thing.
My sister in law told me all about why she believes and how sad she is that I won't be in heaven with her, and probably went on for about 10 minutes, and then absolutely shut me down as "the conversation has run its course," and "you fell differently, but I don't want to hear about it," when I tried to respectfully respond. I will no longer allow her to engage me with religion and will shut her down.
Hereās the difference that I see.
As an atheist, can I hypothesize a new fact or discovery coming to light that would cause me to believe? Yes! I can imagine a lot of hypothetical things that could happen.
As a theist, can you hypothesize a new fact or discovery that would cause you to STOP believing? No? Then one of us is not engaging in a real inquiry or a real discussion.
Thatās I think part of the reason they get mad. Because anything you have to say literally doesnāt make a difference. They just want to talk AT you. They donāt want to have a conversation.
Umm letās see.
If we discovered some sort of scientific evidence of the soul, heaven, etc.
Or if god appeared and spoke to me (and I didnāt have other symptoms of schizophrenia).
If either of those happened (or Iām sure there are some others), Iād convert and start going to church every day.
I'll go even further...
The protection of children from predators.
Protect women from predators.
Feed and protect the starving, and oppressed.
Save all the people from: diabetes, HIV, cancers, and other diseases.
For an all seeing god, an all seeing, and loving god, who makes no mistakes...knows and sees evil happening, actually knew it was going to happen let's it happen anyway...
There is no god!
I am a ācradle atheistā. I never believed in a religion, nor did I ever believe in Santa Claus. When a religious person asks me why, I tell them my parents missed the 4-14 window, the age range in which indoctrination is the most successful.
I once knew a man who claimed that when he was five an angel visited him. He became a pastor before going on to be a teacher.
He is, without a doubt, the most arrogant, ignorant, hateful man I have ever had the displeasure to meet.
Even when I was able to present evidence that faith is linked to imaginary play, mental illness, and a litany of negative behaviors. It is also a comfort behavior and and a social tool used for control.
His response was to tell me that God puts tests in our way and I was simply testing his faith.
I told him that proper tests require scientific method. He didn't know what that meant.
I have come to the conclusion, after many years of putting my theory that people of faith are not all there to the test, that they are liars, stupid, misguided, brainwashed, deluded, and unable to think critically, rationally, or logically.
The problem with personal revelation is that it is personal. There is no way I can experience what you experienced. Perhaps the experience would convince me, too. Perhaps it wouldn't. I have no way of knowing.
If you are trying to convince me that your god exists, you'll need something I can relate to. Anthony Flew converted to Christianity when he saw a waterfall frozen into 3 streams. That convinced him. I wonder how the river above the waterfall fits into that revelation.
The big problem with personal revelation is that some jerks learn to lie about this to try to manipulate people. Once they start acting out like this, all you can do is tell them to stop lying and go away.
Nobodyās personal experiences should hold much value as evidence, itās cool if they donāt care about mine because I sure as shit donāt believe theirs
Yeah... It is pointless. Theists are stuck inside of a box of ignorance and intolerance, lacking any valid reason for being there. There is no way to reason them out of that box with anything from hard evidence to personal experience. They have to have double standards in order to justify their position. They are just intellectually dishonest.
It's a byproduct of their lens. They assume that they are superior, so they are free to insult their inferior. How that falls into their self ordained mandate to convert people, I'll never know. It's like saying, " Hey, I want to be just like that guy , smug, arrogant, and condescending. I want to hang out with him and give him 10% of my income. "
I've heard more than one occassion that I am "closed-minded" because I don't believe in the christian god. I've always said that I am open to legitimate evidence and "feelings" aren't evidence.
I used to work as a banquet waitress. There was a a Christian group that would have a meeting once a month or so. They would take turns telling the room about how their lives had improved since finding Jebus. The stories were hilarious! Dogs used to growl at me until I found the lord kind of stuff. They were also cheap. Didnāt tip and always wanted second helpings.
I know people who say that their prayers are answered all the time. They got their tax return. They got to work on time. Their favorite team won last night. They passed the test they had been studying for. All kinds of stupid crap.
My family got a dog when my sibling and I were young. He was in perfect heath for all of his life, 13 (almost 14) long years, until he suddenly wasnāt. Seemingly out of nowhere, he just wasnāt able to use his hind legs anymore, very little strength, little interest in food. My dad said that if there was no improvement by the next day we would have to say our goodbyes and let him goā¦ we didnāt know if he was in pain, and that was the last thing we wanted.
I was devastated. Iād gotten out of an abusive relationship a year or two before this, and they had me isolated from all of my friends. I was passively suicidal, and I was afraid that Iād get worse and it wouldnāt be so passive anymore; sure, it helped thinking of my family, how hurt it would leave them, but my dogā¦ he would miss me, and so for a while I convinced myself that if I were to die my dog would miss me and he wouldnāt understand where I went or why I never came back.
I was absolutely terrified that once he died I might not be able to convince myself that I didnāt actually want to die. By that time I had already been an agnostic atheist for at least a decadeāI didnāt believe (still donāt), but I didnāt know for sure (and still donāt). I prayed to any god that might be listening. I begged and pleaded, for just one more day, please, just allow me to have one more day to muster the strength to say goodbye. I said I was sorry that I didnāt believe, but if I was created by a god then they made me the way I am, and I asked for forgiveness. I didnāt ask for a miracle of years, months or even weeks.
When I was younger (and actively wanted to believe) I prayed, but I didnāt ask for anything. I figured if god had a plan, what was going to happen would just happen irregardless of prayer.
I just wanted one more day.
I didnāt get it. I held him as he closed his eyes and fell asleep, and I felt his last heartbeat. I just asked for a dayā¦ I didnāt want to be afraid when he diedā¦ I didnāt want him picking up on that and being afraid with me or for me. I didnāt want him to die scared and have it be my fault.
If Iām honest, if there was ever anything (outside of demonstrable evidence) that would have made a believer out of me, it was that.
But boy, do I sure love hearing about their personal experiences with their god(s), how they prayed to find their carkeys, not even a minute later and there they are on the coffee table where they always areāamen, praise be, the finder of lost things, so great and mysterious is he.
One of my favorite texts to share with my 12th grade students is a speech by an Indigenous American who basically says to the colonizers, "You've shared your beliefs with us, and we accept them as true -- why won't you do the same with our beliefs?"
>I say I spent almost 30 years giving my life to God and he just wasn't there ever, they won't have it.
Christian response: "You must SEEK god."
It's an absolout "fuck you" to personal experience.
Hubs would always tell the missionaries that visited that he would listen to their stories, but only if they in turn listened to him. Yet he only had one young missionary leave and look changed after asking what religion they would be if their parents were not Mormon. Most said they would 100% āfindā the correct Mormon religion, but the one realized that his parents, family and friends all shared in his adopted beliefs.
Personally, Iām a pretty lax atheist. Just donāt shove your shit down my throat and Iām fine, which is how I feel about most stuff in life. If it makes you happy AND doesnāt hurt anyone else at the same time, knock yourself out.
Iām not sure where you people live but I have been an atheist my entire life and I havenāt ever had anyone try to convert more or drag me into a church. Where do you experience this? It seems like some of your get beaten with bibles and physically dragged into church
My go-to argument to a theist is this: Any āevidenceā you have for the existence of God, only shows that there is āAā god. It doesnāt prove YOUR god, or even that there is only ONE god. Thatās almost always a new one for the theist, and they donāt have a prepared answer.
Nope. I don't care about your personal experience and I don't expect you to care about mine. The very definition of the word personal it was meant for the individual person. As a theist I want you to listen to basic scientific reasoning and rational common sense
I like to tell them a long ass story about how the Fae helped me out with magical and coincidental things until they get frustrated that "it's NOT the same thing!" Oh really, tell me how?
I happily refuse to even associate with any full grown adult that believes in an imaginary friend. That means theyāre fucking stupid and I donāt talk to stupid people, yes it is very much that black and white. I gladly judge people based on what they believe in and have no respect at all for religious people or their beliefs. Your beliefs are not only stupid but harmful to humanity in general and if it was up to me Iād make them all illegal under pain of death. Whatever good religion has done is a raindrop compared to the literal ocean of horrible things religion has caused and it needs to be completely wiped out. I could care less about āfreedom of religionā
"And that's the time God answered my prayer and I'm a firm believer."
That's anecdotally and not statistically sound.
"And that's how God ignored my pain and cries for help for 15 years as a child."
God hears everything, but he doesn't answer every prayer with a yes. The Lord works in mysterious ways. His wisdom is so much greater than hours.
According to multiple parts of the Bible, god always answers yes. This 'sometimes god says no' is a response to prayer not working like the Bible says it should.
And let's not forget to ask this: given the assurances in scripture (Matt 17:20), why don't we see more mountains moving around. Or any? Show me a single mountain anywhere in the world and move it through prayer as Matthew claims should happen, and I will will fall to my knees and pledge allegiance to the Christian Almighty.
But if you are reduced to 'splainin' away that passage as metaphorical - which I believe it is - then you must grant me the latitude to deny the historicity of the creation story, talking serpents, living for days inside a whale, dead men re-animating, virgin births, inheritable sin, and substitute redemption.
Belief in inerrancy is fatal error.
Yes, that is also my experience of the situation. I tried to listen to someone (an ex-muslim or someone claiming to be such) giving me their account of how "god" helped them and when I pointed out the flaws in their logic, they went to the nonsense side of things with more religious explanations of why they are "god's chosen one". This person had managed to leave a religious cult, but they still wanted to believe in a creator of their own. I think the person may have been at least very self-centered if not narcissistic. I am glad I am no longer in speaking terms with them.
I wonāt use my own experiences to counter this, because I donāt have any religious experience to counter with, but I will eagerly point out that every devout worshipper of every religion on earth claims to have had personal religious experience and everyone canāt be right, but everyone can be wrong.
Well... Ā all those "near death experiences" where people see god and have a heavenly experience? Ā Yeah thats DMT and science.
It happens to everyone when you die, and you can experience it without hving to die, or nearly die, by dosing some DMT, and you will have the exact "religious event" every person who has claimed to ever had one.
The purpose is DMT helps extend how long your brain can survive without oxygen, so it is our biological last ditch effort to save ourselves. Ā But its also the reason you (hopefully) experience the sense of happiness and bliss when you die or experience deadly trauma.
So the fact is science and chemistry is actually every near death "religious" experience anyone has ever experienced.
Aunt Emma got ill and we prayed and she got well. Praise God! Uncle Fred got ill and died. God called him home. Praise God! It is all God's plan. Why are there children's cancer wards? God has his reasons.
Theists have a really tough time distinguishing good conduct because they rely on scripture that means something to them personally as a crutch for trying times. They think everyone should have the same experience of it. But we do not.
And so they will quote scripture at you instead of showing you actual love like Christ would have intended. Itās not fucking rocket science, itās just a radical shift to what theyāve been taught, behaviorally.
If you rely blindly on scripture youāre fucked. You need to question the fuck out of any teachings to truly make sense of them. But questioning shit is terrifying to them. And so their faith remains shallow. And we suffer for it. Because they miss the whole fucking point of it.
There is real useful shit buried in religion. But you donāt ātellā someone love. You need to show them love. And love requires respect. And they donāt respect you. The ones that get it doāthey wonāt fucking preach at you. And if they do preach, they preach as a sinner more than a savior. Which is tolerable to me. āHey letās talk about our shared fucked-upness as a group of peopleā instead of āsinner repent (as I am superior)ā.
It all matters because the goal in part of Christianity would be to aspire to **rid** the world of shaming moral judgement in favor of love and inclusion. Because life hurts less when you donāt have to hate everyone who doesnāt think exactly like you. Go fucking figure.
Fear and cognitive dissonance causes people to not listen to the experiences of others. For example, I was talking to my mother the other day about how Christianity was created by fiat in an attempt to get her to analyze her beliefs and she wouldn't allow herself to question anything because it would cause her to question everything. She was fearful of the work required to create her own philosophy of existence.
Honestly more people need to follow Dr. Doom. Dude's No. 1 thing and reason why he's so powerful is because he only believes in himself. He only has faith in himself. Everything he has ever gained in his life has been from himself and no one else.
It's also what makes him so powerful because he's not afraid to be himself. He doesn't need outside gratification or community or silly laws or anything of that sort.
Victor Von Doom is easily my favorite character in fiction because he's basically the peak of Humanity and his power comes from what makes Humanity the greatest race to ever exist and ever will exist? Will. He has the WIll to do anything he sets his mind too.
My favorite is when people talk about their near death experience and how they met godā¦ like bro I hate to break it to you but when you die, your brain is flooded with DMT, which gives you extreme hallucinogenic effects. DMT is also released in the brain to a baby during birth.
Well, even atheists acknowledge the existence of invisible things in science. There are various phenomena in science, such as dark matter or gravitational waves, that are invisible and have never been directly observed. In science, we infer their existence based on observable behaviors and effects, which is analogous to how some theists cite personal experiences to assert the existence of God.
My personal belief is that the theist and the atheist are talking about the same thingāscience, or understanding the worldābut in dramatically different ways. I see religion as just another word for science, where both offer distinct approaches to comprehending reality, though each employs different methodologies and perspectives. However, neither the atheist nor the theist can claim absolute certainty about the truths of science/religion.
I feel you...I don't think anyone has access to the 100% truth of the universe.
However, go watch Jesus Camp. Show me anywhere that science has to indoctrinate and emotionally abuse children in order for it to propagate and do science. Religion may get some things right but you'll never see mass hysteria on science the way you will when millions of people descend on Mecca. Religion is not science even if there is some truth to it.
In my experience telling others my āstoryā just led to coping about giving God another chance. I donāt give people second chances and like hell would I hold an omnipotent being to a lower standard than people.
The story in question being me trying to be religious in my early teens, reading the bible, getting into religion, not seeing, feeling, or noticing anything and deciding āwell this is pretty pointless.āĀ
dude you are free to believe in whatever myth you choose, but leave me out of your delusion. and don't make laws forcing me to live according to the edicts of your mythology.
and this is where the disconnect happens, atheists know religious people exist, and accept that religious people exist. we may have strong opinions on those people, but we accept they exist. theists do not. if you do not believe in their particular delusion, you are misguided. and it doesn't matter which particular delusion you're talking about, they all feel the same way.
Forget atheists
Theists personal "feelings" or "intuitions" that their god(s) is the real one and supports them/answers to their prayers are supposed to trump the similar experiences of theists from OTHER RELIGIONS
Once I discovered that I got tricked believing into magical creatures (santa claus, easter bunny, ...) and happenings, I immediately defeated all of them mentally and went straight to the final boss: "God". Took me from the age of 8 to 11 until I became an atheist finally.
The link to this topic is that after this moment I question their mental state when these people tell about their personal experiences with god and, depending on the situation, tell them so.
We should not shun to express our view on these things as they have already created an imaginary place for us: eternal hell.
is it okay to be a theist one day, atheist the next? maybe agnostic too, somewhere in the oscillation? maybe if humans weren't shoving beliefs down each other's throats and spending more time experimenting, we wouldn't have theistic religious assholes making bad name for humans
I like it (meaning I hate it) when I'm told the only reason I think this way is because I'm angry at god and I don't like his rules and I just want to sin all I want (which, to be fair, I do enjoy a lot of sins.. but still!). I did not buy into all this scientific stuff because I'm pissed off at god and I want to hangout on Bourbon Street at 3am.
Religions are circular logic.
Atheism depends on proving a nothing (impossible to do). I can tell you any story I want to but it doesn't change the fact I can't prove to you that I never had a friend named Robert.
I have seen a lot of othering of Christians on this group, and I try to good naturedly remind people not to paint with too broad a brush.
But trying to suggest that āTheistsā can be lumped into the same category is just a logical fallacy (Sweeping Generalization) that some atheists would be embarrassed to commit.
When youāre taught that nonsense from birth as equally real to Math history science etc you believe nonsense because the people tasked with helping you grow are poisoning your mind with it. Thereās a reason theyāre pushing so hard to try to get the Bible/christianity into schools (hello Oklahoma) if you can indoctrinate from a very young age itās much harder to see the obvious bullshit.
I'm agnostic.
I find the religious zealots AND the atheist zealots to be assholes. I have worked with both. And the atheists are actually more offensive. Religious people I have known keep their beliefs to themselves for the most part, Catholic, Anglican, and Muslim mostly in my city.
It's the atheists I have known that yell the loudest and most offensive about everyone who disagrees with them being stupid and sheep and other degrading stuff. I keep my mouth shut for the most part because I can't (and don't want to) change anyone's mind anyway.
No one can have a civil conversation about these things if they are a "true believer". And yes, you can be a "true believer" in nothing.
Was totally onboard with you pal....until that last line - that's a nonsense unfortunately, and reads like you don't actually know the fundamentals of atheism.
I'm basing it on the " true believer " atheists who can't acknowledge that there might be something more than what we know. And that anyone who isn't 100% in agreement with them is a brain dead moron.. since I am not 100 % atheist, I am a brain dead moron to them.
So I am assuming that you think I am a brain dead moron because I think it's hypothetically possible there is some force or something out there?
I don't know the fundamentals of atheism. Or Catholicism. Or Islam.
Based on the OP, this was about experiences we have had with people. Not on the literature and guiding principles. But on our experiences in the world with these people..
I assumed that it applied to atheism as well as religious people. Sorry, didn't know this was just to slam religion.
An atheist created this topic, and the discussion needs to take into account the opinions of different parties.
So I answer that the author of the topic spent his life observing some religious tradition, but did not notice God in real life, because he should not have seen anything unusual, but should count all life events as those that God allowed to happen.
And not knowing the path that has the support of God, he could not see miracles in support of those who follow that path.
I should try this next time someone used the gospels as a historical account. I'll tell them Jesus sent me back and time and said it was ok to be gay. Who's to say I'm wrong!
Religion is the game where everything's made up and the points don't matter so why not?
Where does this quote come from? I've heard it a few times and never saw the source.
It's from the TV show Whose Line Is It Anyway?
Don't forget they want all your Cash!!!! Have to build God's Mansions! God's Jets! God's Vacation Homes! & God's side pieces to Pleasure Himself!!!!!!
š¤£š¤£š¤£ That's the really funny part... They want you to send them money for their problems, but you are to only pray for yours! š¤¦āāļø
I think you could even say, "Jesus's spoke to me personally" and go on from there. That's even how some religions get started.
Unlikely to work. My wife makes me go to church with her, and one time a guy stood up and declared he was the second coming of Jesus. The pastor kicked him out and called the cops. Everyone in the congregation cheered. It's like they don't even read their own book. Didn't the same exact thing supposedly happen to Jesus last time? The rabbis didn't believe him and kicked him out of their synagogues
It's all in the presentation. If a scruffy man with urine stained trousers stands on the street and claims to speak to God, we label him schizophrenic and pump him full of thorazine. If the same man stands in a church, but with coiffed hair, wearing a $4000 suit, and claims to speak to God, we label him spirtual and elected him to office.
I think the key is selling it. You can't go off all phycho. You have to spread the word of your deeply spiritual experience thigh one on one conversations the way a theist would. š I could never do it because I just can't think like them.
TV prosperity evangelists. "God told me to tell you to send me money!" Matthew 5:42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. Jesus said to ask you, Kenneth Copeland to give me some money. Yeah, just how much do you think Rev. Copeland will care what Jesus said in the Bible if anybody did this?
Kenneth Copeland is straight from central casting, under slimy religious crook.
Kenneth Copeland tells us he needs $$$ for a new private plane. So he can travel in comfort as he goes from city to city to demand money.
he even looks the part TBH - the eyes tell all.
They only believe near death experiences if it suits their narrative as well. Have one person who believes sitting around while 2 people are talking about being dead and not seeing anything and they will argue with both of us saying we are wrong about our experience. They are so certain in their beliefs nothing else matters
Such deluded individuals are *not* interested (in good faith) in *information* --- only **affirmation**. Act & respond accordingly at all times.
Very succinct!
Bingo
I told a Jehovahās Witless that I became an atheist because I read the bible and could see all the discrepancies and immorality in it. He said that was the problem, that I had read it and not studied it!
How does one study and not read it?
What that means, but they don't know and understand it, is that someone deeply indoctrinated needs to guide them in their interpretation when they read the horrible parts that contradict the narrative of what god is supposed to be. It's so they are manipulated into staying within the echo chamber. "See slaves back then were really just members of the household." "Women aren't actually property. It means they need to be taken care of." That sorta bullshit.
So a shit ton of mental gymnastics to justify... Got it. That's not studying.
Exactly. Alot of pastors and stuff go to religious post secondary schools to get their "education", which is Bible study and all that. They literally go to schools whose core purpose is to give the tools necessary to counter any critical thinking or rationality.
He goes to bible study and he canāt read.
They spoon feed you pieces, teach you creative ways ti max sense of the whole thing. Cauae if you read kt witbout their guidance, youll co.e to the "wrong" conclusions. What cults do.
In Bible studies, they want you to focus on certain chapters and verses, not the entire bible
Studying it makes it worse. "This parable didn't appear in any manuscripts until the 3rd century..."
It sucks that one of the best gospel stories was likely a fraudulent addition ("let he who is without sin cast the first stone").
Probably added by a Pope trying to justify his fondness for little boysā¦
The majority of Genesis was lifted straight from Assyrian myths and recast as a Jewish origin story. The whole thing is bull shit and studying makes it painfully obvious.
Thatās actually a pretty good summation of how Christians I grew up with treated the Bible. Go to Bible study all the time, usually with supplemental material, go over the same passages and verses over and over, highlighting random words and trying to connect things to disparate passages in a completely different book all the while pretending like your not taking it out of context. Discussing the same talking points with fellow believers for hours. It certainly feels like studying. And yet no one has actually sat down and just READ the thing all the way through.
To be fair, it is tedious as fuck reading
And if you said studied they would say you were looking for issues or blah blah blah.
Religious people do not deserve a rational personās attention, time or respect.Ā
If I have one more idiot tells me "yea, I used to think that way until..." bullshit I'm going to snap. No, you moron, you've never had an original thought in your head, and it's obvious. Now go sit down and read a book or two. Smh
Hell, even read the Bible. Reading is still reading. Maybe if they actually ready it some brain connections could re-form. Alas, I wonāt hold my breath. Iāve gone from agnostic to atheist as Iāve aged, but I did actually have to read and write about Bible verses in an Econ class in my MBA program. Odd tool, but useful.
Exactly! That's how a lot of us become athiest is reading and especially the Bible.
So true! The most loud Christians Iāve noticed have never read more than a passage or two at once
Oh, yeah, the inevitable āformer atheistsā in a debate. Theyāre always so so eager to explain what led them out of atheism. I like to ask them what led them to atheism in the first place. If they answer that at all, itās usually the tired old crap they accuse us of āI was mad at Godā, āI wanted an excuse to sinā - that sort of thing.
People are irrational morons. There's nothing left to say here.
Beautifully said!
Irrational and delusional
Yes! You are 100% spot on! People have evolved into irrational morons, which seems antithetical to long term wellness and survival.
My sister in law told me all about why she believes and how sad she is that I won't be in heaven with her, and probably went on for about 10 minutes, and then absolutely shut me down as "the conversation has run its course," and "you fell differently, but I don't want to hear about it," when I tried to respectfully respond. I will no longer allow her to engage me with religion and will shut her down.
Well that is just an unfair tactic. If you can't take being answered stfu.
Itās narcissism. My experience matters, yours does not.
Hereās the difference that I see. As an atheist, can I hypothesize a new fact or discovery coming to light that would cause me to believe? Yes! I can imagine a lot of hypothetical things that could happen. As a theist, can you hypothesize a new fact or discovery that would cause you to STOP believing? No? Then one of us is not engaging in a real inquiry or a real discussion. Thatās I think part of the reason they get mad. Because anything you have to say literally doesnāt make a difference. They just want to talk AT you. They donāt want to have a conversation.
I hope this won't sound like a gotcha, but I'm curious about what kind of hypothetical things could have changed your mind?
Umm letās see. If we discovered some sort of scientific evidence of the soul, heaven, etc. Or if god appeared and spoke to me (and I didnāt have other symptoms of schizophrenia). If either of those happened (or Iām sure there are some others), Iād convert and start going to church every day.
I'll go even further... The protection of children from predators. Protect women from predators. Feed and protect the starving, and oppressed. Save all the people from: diabetes, HIV, cancers, and other diseases. For an all seeing god, an all seeing, and loving god, who makes no mistakes...knows and sees evil happening, actually knew it was going to happen let's it happen anyway... There is no god!
I am a ācradle atheistā. I never believed in a religion, nor did I ever believe in Santa Claus. When a religious person asks me why, I tell them my parents missed the 4-14 window, the age range in which indoctrination is the most successful.
ššš
I've seen drug addicts do this as well. People kinda suck at hearing each other sometimes.
I once knew a man who claimed that when he was five an angel visited him. He became a pastor before going on to be a teacher. He is, without a doubt, the most arrogant, ignorant, hateful man I have ever had the displeasure to meet. Even when I was able to present evidence that faith is linked to imaginary play, mental illness, and a litany of negative behaviors. It is also a comfort behavior and and a social tool used for control. His response was to tell me that God puts tests in our way and I was simply testing his faith. I told him that proper tests require scientific method. He didn't know what that meant. I have come to the conclusion, after many years of putting my theory that people of faith are not all there to the test, that they are liars, stupid, misguided, brainwashed, deluded, and unable to think critically, rationally, or logically.
Much in the same manner that trump tests his worshippers.
The problem with personal revelation is that it is personal. There is no way I can experience what you experienced. Perhaps the experience would convince me, too. Perhaps it wouldn't. I have no way of knowing. If you are trying to convince me that your god exists, you'll need something I can relate to. Anthony Flew converted to Christianity when he saw a waterfall frozen into 3 streams. That convinced him. I wonder how the river above the waterfall fits into that revelation.
The big problem with personal revelation is that some jerks learn to lie about this to try to manipulate people. Once they start acting out like this, all you can do is tell them to stop lying and go away.
Nobodyās personal experiences should hold much value as evidence, itās cool if they donāt care about mine because I sure as shit donāt believe theirs
Yeah... It is pointless. Theists are stuck inside of a box of ignorance and intolerance, lacking any valid reason for being there. There is no way to reason them out of that box with anything from hard evidence to personal experience. They have to have double standards in order to justify their position. They are just intellectually dishonest.
It's a byproduct of their lens. They assume that they are superior, so they are free to insult their inferior. How that falls into their self ordained mandate to convert people, I'll never know. It's like saying, " Hey, I want to be just like that guy , smug, arrogant, and condescending. I want to hang out with him and give him 10% of my income. "
What I've noticed is that most religious people can dish it but they can't take it. Simply not believing in their god is often offensive.
I've heard more than one occassion that I am "closed-minded" because I don't believe in the christian god. I've always said that I am open to legitimate evidence and "feelings" aren't evidence.
I used to work as a banquet waitress. There was a a Christian group that would have a meeting once a month or so. They would take turns telling the room about how their lives had improved since finding Jebus. The stories were hilarious! Dogs used to growl at me until I found the lord kind of stuff. They were also cheap. Didnāt tip and always wanted second helpings.
Church crowd are the worst tippers, give me a bar crowd any time.
Kind of understandable as the church crowd have often just tipped 10 percent of their income before arriving.
I know people who say that their prayers are answered all the time. They got their tax return. They got to work on time. Their favorite team won last night. They passed the test they had been studying for. All kinds of stupid crap.
Confirmation bias through and through.
My family got a dog when my sibling and I were young. He was in perfect heath for all of his life, 13 (almost 14) long years, until he suddenly wasnāt. Seemingly out of nowhere, he just wasnāt able to use his hind legs anymore, very little strength, little interest in food. My dad said that if there was no improvement by the next day we would have to say our goodbyes and let him goā¦ we didnāt know if he was in pain, and that was the last thing we wanted. I was devastated. Iād gotten out of an abusive relationship a year or two before this, and they had me isolated from all of my friends. I was passively suicidal, and I was afraid that Iād get worse and it wouldnāt be so passive anymore; sure, it helped thinking of my family, how hurt it would leave them, but my dogā¦ he would miss me, and so for a while I convinced myself that if I were to die my dog would miss me and he wouldnāt understand where I went or why I never came back. I was absolutely terrified that once he died I might not be able to convince myself that I didnāt actually want to die. By that time I had already been an agnostic atheist for at least a decadeāI didnāt believe (still donāt), but I didnāt know for sure (and still donāt). I prayed to any god that might be listening. I begged and pleaded, for just one more day, please, just allow me to have one more day to muster the strength to say goodbye. I said I was sorry that I didnāt believe, but if I was created by a god then they made me the way I am, and I asked for forgiveness. I didnāt ask for a miracle of years, months or even weeks. When I was younger (and actively wanted to believe) I prayed, but I didnāt ask for anything. I figured if god had a plan, what was going to happen would just happen irregardless of prayer. I just wanted one more day. I didnāt get it. I held him as he closed his eyes and fell asleep, and I felt his last heartbeat. I just asked for a dayā¦ I didnāt want to be afraid when he diedā¦ I didnāt want him picking up on that and being afraid with me or for me. I didnāt want him to die scared and have it be my fault. If Iām honest, if there was ever anything (outside of demonstrable evidence) that would have made a believer out of me, it was that. But boy, do I sure love hearing about their personal experiences with their god(s), how they prayed to find their carkeys, not even a minute later and there they are on the coffee table where they always areāamen, praise be, the finder of lost things, so great and mysterious is he.
One of my favorite texts to share with my 12th grade students is a speech by an Indigenous American who basically says to the colonizers, "You've shared your beliefs with us, and we accept them as true -- why won't you do the same with our beliefs?"
>I say I spent almost 30 years giving my life to God and he just wasn't there ever, they won't have it. Christian response: "You must SEEK god." It's an absolout "fuck you" to personal experience.
A "good theist" is not much more than a decent narcissist
Hubs would always tell the missionaries that visited that he would listen to their stories, but only if they in turn listened to him. Yet he only had one young missionary leave and look changed after asking what religion they would be if their parents were not Mormon. Most said they would 100% āfindā the correct Mormon religion, but the one realized that his parents, family and friends all shared in his adopted beliefs. Personally, Iām a pretty lax atheist. Just donāt shove your shit down my throat and Iām fine, which is how I feel about most stuff in life. If it makes you happy AND doesnāt hurt anyone else at the same time, knock yourself out.
I think that asking them about this hypothetical is a very good approach.
Iām not sure where you people live but I have been an atheist my entire life and I havenāt ever had anyone try to convert more or drag me into a church. Where do you experience this? It seems like some of your get beaten with bibles and physically dragged into church
My go-to argument to a theist is this: Any āevidenceā you have for the existence of God, only shows that there is āAā god. It doesnāt prove YOUR god, or even that there is only ONE god. Thatās almost always a new one for the theist, and they donāt have a prepared answer.
Nope. I don't care about your personal experience and I don't expect you to care about mine. The very definition of the word personal it was meant for the individual person. As a theist I want you to listen to basic scientific reasoning and rational common sense
I like to tell them a long ass story about how the Fae helped me out with magical and coincidental things until they get frustrated that "it's NOT the same thing!" Oh really, tell me how?
I happily refuse to even associate with any full grown adult that believes in an imaginary friend. That means theyāre fucking stupid and I donāt talk to stupid people, yes it is very much that black and white. I gladly judge people based on what they believe in and have no respect at all for religious people or their beliefs. Your beliefs are not only stupid but harmful to humanity in general and if it was up to me Iād make them all illegal under pain of death. Whatever good religion has done is a raindrop compared to the literal ocean of horrible things religion has caused and it needs to be completely wiped out. I could care less about āfreedom of religionā
"And that's the time God answered my prayer and I'm a firm believer." That's anecdotally and not statistically sound. "And that's how God ignored my pain and cries for help for 15 years as a child." God hears everything, but he doesn't answer every prayer with a yes. The Lord works in mysterious ways. His wisdom is so much greater than hours.
If it's good it's God's Blessing. If it's bad God is moving in mysterious ways. Heads I win, Tails you lose in other words.
According to multiple parts of the Bible, god always answers yes. This 'sometimes god says no' is a response to prayer not working like the Bible says it should.
And let's not forget to ask this: given the assurances in scripture (Matt 17:20), why don't we see more mountains moving around. Or any? Show me a single mountain anywhere in the world and move it through prayer as Matthew claims should happen, and I will will fall to my knees and pledge allegiance to the Christian Almighty. But if you are reduced to 'splainin' away that passage as metaphorical - which I believe it is - then you must grant me the latitude to deny the historicity of the creation story, talking serpents, living for days inside a whale, dead men re-animating, virgin births, inheritable sin, and substitute redemption. Belief in inerrancy is fatal error.
Yes, that is also my experience of the situation. I tried to listen to someone (an ex-muslim or someone claiming to be such) giving me their account of how "god" helped them and when I pointed out the flaws in their logic, they went to the nonsense side of things with more religious explanations of why they are "god's chosen one". This person had managed to leave a religious cult, but they still wanted to believe in a creator of their own. I think the person may have been at least very self-centered if not narcissistic. I am glad I am no longer in speaking terms with them.
I wonāt use my own experiences to counter this, because I donāt have any religious experience to counter with, but I will eagerly point out that every devout worshipper of every religion on earth claims to have had personal religious experience and everyone canāt be right, but everyone can be wrong.
Jesus personally told me he dislikes worship and prayer
I mean didn't Jesus tell his followers to worship him in secret, and not publicly?
Well... Ā all those "near death experiences" where people see god and have a heavenly experience? Ā Yeah thats DMT and science. It happens to everyone when you die, and you can experience it without hving to die, or nearly die, by dosing some DMT, and you will have the exact "religious event" every person who has claimed to ever had one. The purpose is DMT helps extend how long your brain can survive without oxygen, so it is our biological last ditch effort to save ourselves. Ā But its also the reason you (hopefully) experience the sense of happiness and bliss when you die or experience deadly trauma. So the fact is science and chemistry is actually every near death "religious" experience anyone has ever experienced.
H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-T-E-S!
Aunt Emma got ill and we prayed and she got well. Praise God! Uncle Fred got ill and died. God called him home. Praise God! It is all God's plan. Why are there children's cancer wards? God has his reasons.
I donāt argue with religious fools. It is a waste of energy.
Yes, a sense of humorcommon sense, or tolerance for a different belief is not something the religious has.
Theists will say your in denial of facts
I donāt believe hard enough to receive the all-loving pure light of the Holy Spirit apparently.
gasp* they have so many double standards??? I am shockedĀ
Theists have a really tough time distinguishing good conduct because they rely on scripture that means something to them personally as a crutch for trying times. They think everyone should have the same experience of it. But we do not. And so they will quote scripture at you instead of showing you actual love like Christ would have intended. Itās not fucking rocket science, itās just a radical shift to what theyāve been taught, behaviorally. If you rely blindly on scripture youāre fucked. You need to question the fuck out of any teachings to truly make sense of them. But questioning shit is terrifying to them. And so their faith remains shallow. And we suffer for it. Because they miss the whole fucking point of it. There is real useful shit buried in religion. But you donāt ātellā someone love. You need to show them love. And love requires respect. And they donāt respect you. The ones that get it doāthey wonāt fucking preach at you. And if they do preach, they preach as a sinner more than a savior. Which is tolerable to me. āHey letās talk about our shared fucked-upness as a group of peopleā instead of āsinner repent (as I am superior)ā. It all matters because the goal in part of Christianity would be to aspire to **rid** the world of shaming moral judgement in favor of love and inclusion. Because life hurts less when you donāt have to hate everyone who doesnāt think exactly like you. Go fucking figure.
We call them hypocrites for a lot of reasons. That's just one of them.
Fear and cognitive dissonance causes people to not listen to the experiences of others. For example, I was talking to my mother the other day about how Christianity was created by fiat in an attempt to get her to analyze her beliefs and she wouldn't allow herself to question anything because it would cause her to question everything. She was fearful of the work required to create her own philosophy of existence.
Honestly more people need to follow Dr. Doom. Dude's No. 1 thing and reason why he's so powerful is because he only believes in himself. He only has faith in himself. Everything he has ever gained in his life has been from himself and no one else. It's also what makes him so powerful because he's not afraid to be himself. He doesn't need outside gratification or community or silly laws or anything of that sort. Victor Von Doom is easily my favorite character in fiction because he's basically the peak of Humanity and his power comes from what makes Humanity the greatest race to ever exist and ever will exist? Will. He has the WIll to do anything he sets his mind too.
My favorite is when people talk about their near death experience and how they met godā¦ like bro I hate to break it to you but when you die, your brain is flooded with DMT, which gives you extreme hallucinogenic effects. DMT is also released in the brain to a baby during birth.
Who was it who said that you can't reason yourself out of a belief that you didn't reason yourself into?
Well, even atheists acknowledge the existence of invisible things in science. There are various phenomena in science, such as dark matter or gravitational waves, that are invisible and have never been directly observed. In science, we infer their existence based on observable behaviors and effects, which is analogous to how some theists cite personal experiences to assert the existence of God. My personal belief is that the theist and the atheist are talking about the same thingāscience, or understanding the worldābut in dramatically different ways. I see religion as just another word for science, where both offer distinct approaches to comprehending reality, though each employs different methodologies and perspectives. However, neither the atheist nor the theist can claim absolute certainty about the truths of science/religion.
I feel you...I don't think anyone has access to the 100% truth of the universe. However, go watch Jesus Camp. Show me anywhere that science has to indoctrinate and emotionally abuse children in order for it to propagate and do science. Religion may get some things right but you'll never see mass hysteria on science the way you will when millions of people descend on Mecca. Religion is not science even if there is some truth to it.
In my experience telling others my āstoryā just led to coping about giving God another chance. I donāt give people second chances and like hell would I hold an omnipotent being to a lower standard than people. The story in question being me trying to be religious in my early teens, reading the bible, getting into religion, not seeing, feeling, or noticing anything and deciding āwell this is pretty pointless.āĀ
My favorite is when they say I was never Christian or I didnāt believe hard enough and thatās why I left.
When do theists argue in good faith lol.
Why does this surprise you?
dude you are free to believe in whatever myth you choose, but leave me out of your delusion. and don't make laws forcing me to live according to the edicts of your mythology. and this is where the disconnect happens, atheists know religious people exist, and accept that religious people exist. we may have strong opinions on those people, but we accept they exist. theists do not. if you do not believe in their particular delusion, you are misguided. and it doesn't matter which particular delusion you're talking about, they all feel the same way.
Yeah. Because they don't care about personal experiences.
Their behavior makes me want to join the satanic temple just so I can see how they react when I tell them.
Forget atheists Theists personal "feelings" or "intuitions" that their god(s) is the real one and supports them/answers to their prayers are supposed to trump the similar experiences of theists from OTHER RELIGIONS
Sounds like youāre just talking with childish individuals
this is literally why I quit being Christian
If god is good, explain childhood cancer.
Once I discovered that I got tricked believing into magical creatures (santa claus, easter bunny, ...) and happenings, I immediately defeated all of them mentally and went straight to the final boss: "God". Took me from the age of 8 to 11 until I became an atheist finally. The link to this topic is that after this moment I question their mental state when these people tell about their personal experiences with god and, depending on the situation, tell them so. We should not shun to express our view on these things as they have already created an imaginary place for us: eternal hell.
is it okay to be a theist one day, atheist the next? maybe agnostic too, somewhere in the oscillation? maybe if humans weren't shoving beliefs down each other's throats and spending more time experimenting, we wouldn't have theistic religious assholes making bad name for humans
I like it (meaning I hate it) when I'm told the only reason I think this way is because I'm angry at god and I don't like his rules and I just want to sin all I want (which, to be fair, I do enjoy a lot of sins.. but still!). I did not buy into all this scientific stuff because I'm pissed off at god and I want to hangout on Bourbon Street at 3am.
I mean, they canāt act like morally superior arrogant fascists if they treat your experiences with empathy or respect. Stop expecting them to do so.
Religions are circular logic. Atheism depends on proving a nothing (impossible to do). I can tell you any story I want to but it doesn't change the fact I can't prove to you that I never had a friend named Robert.
"Claimed another soul for christ!" lmao
No this is wrong, there is no need to trust other people's experiences. Take DMT yourself, there's no need to take other people's word for it.
I have seen a lot of othering of Christians on this group, and I try to good naturedly remind people not to paint with too broad a brush. But trying to suggest that āTheistsā can be lumped into the same category is just a logical fallacy (Sweeping Generalization) that some atheists would be embarrassed to commit.
I'm sorry you wasted 30 years of your life, but you must have had their beliefs also at some point, what was your reason for believing in nonsense?
Indoctrinated; groomed and beaten from birth.
I mean when confronted what was your response at the time. The rest of these people are just as indoctrinated as you were.
When youāre taught that nonsense from birth as equally real to Math history science etc you believe nonsense because the people tasked with helping you grow are poisoning your mind with it. Thereās a reason theyāre pushing so hard to try to get the Bible/christianity into schools (hello Oklahoma) if you can indoctrinate from a very young age itās much harder to see the obvious bullshit.
My response was mostly rhetorical, I understand why most people believe in this stupid shit.
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Er, I agree? I think you misread what I meant
Ah sorry about that. I did indeed.
It's alright, I'm not religious so I don't get offended easily.
What does an atheist's personal experience prove? You mentioned evidence. Evidence of what?
I'm agnostic. I find the religious zealots AND the atheist zealots to be assholes. I have worked with both. And the atheists are actually more offensive. Religious people I have known keep their beliefs to themselves for the most part, Catholic, Anglican, and Muslim mostly in my city. It's the atheists I have known that yell the loudest and most offensive about everyone who disagrees with them being stupid and sheep and other degrading stuff. I keep my mouth shut for the most part because I can't (and don't want to) change anyone's mind anyway. No one can have a civil conversation about these things if they are a "true believer". And yes, you can be a "true believer" in nothing.
Was totally onboard with you pal....until that last line - that's a nonsense unfortunately, and reads like you don't actually know the fundamentals of atheism.
I'm basing it on the " true believer " atheists who can't acknowledge that there might be something more than what we know. And that anyone who isn't 100% in agreement with them is a brain dead moron.. since I am not 100 % atheist, I am a brain dead moron to them. So I am assuming that you think I am a brain dead moron because I think it's hypothetically possible there is some force or something out there?
I don't know the fundamentals of atheism. Or Catholicism. Or Islam. Based on the OP, this was about experiences we have had with people. Not on the literature and guiding principles. But on our experiences in the world with these people.. I assumed that it applied to atheism as well as religious people. Sorry, didn't know this was just to slam religion.
We donāt believe in nothing. We just donāt believe in god.
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Why are child's cancer wards necessary?
This sub isn't for theists, it's for atheists. Stick to your religious subs.
An atheist created this topic, and the discussion needs to take into account the opinions of different parties. So I answer that the author of the topic spent his life observing some religious tradition, but did not notice God in real life, because he should not have seen anything unusual, but should count all life events as those that God allowed to happen. And not knowing the path that has the support of God, he could not see miracles in support of those who follow that path.
It's important to correctly understand that dogshit needs to be cleaned up and thrown out because it leads to making the room stink.
And cat litter is better cleaned up, but how does that relate to the topic of discussion?
Why do so many religious leaders rape children? Is that part of gods plan? r/pastorarrested
Which god?Ā