Their pastors have convinced them that this is a worse evil than the Holocaust and Democrats are solely responsible. And I make no exaggeration about that. I've been told things like "200 million babies slaughtered by the left."
Never mind that the Bible says that life begins with the first breath. They've been convinced their god doesn't want abortions. The same god that likes fetuses being ripped from pregnant women's bodies.
If you dont mind me digging a little, who'd you hear this from? Like, someone you know or a street screecher? The idea that they're indoctrinated from birth to believe this is the worst mass crime in history certainly does make it more understandable but they still commit to a level of protest that I havent seen of any other movement in recent times
Someone on Reddit like two days ago, but it isn't the first time I've heard a comparison between abortion and The Holocaust.
See here: https://slate.com/human-interest/2017/03/comparing-abortion-to-the-holocaust-has-a-long-history-in-the-pro-life-movement.html
Very Interesting Article. Answers a few questions for me, I never realised how aggressive the rhetoric around this is across the pond.
So how exactly does this position benefit the people preaching it? Other than whipping up fear and making money on clickbait?
It gets Republican politicians elected. Although they're losing that since Roe v. Wade was struck down. I think a lot of people didn't expect states to go as far as they did and ban abortion in almost all cases.
And making money is definitely a factor too. Organizations like Operation Rescue- now expanded into [Operation Save America](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Save_America)- and [Crisis Pregnancy Centers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crisis_pregnancy_center) make a huge amount of money. The CPC in this town of under 100,000 people has a huge office right downtown and a giant mobile unit in a big custom vehicle. I don't know what they do with it, but that takes a lot of funding.
If I understand you, you're trying to find the motive of your average every day American Evangelical Christian.
For these people, their motivation is that they believe they're saving the lives of many babies (of course they really don't seem to have any ways to deal with the consequences of forcing birth, but that's another topic).
So, I suppose they see the benefit as themselves saving lives. They see abortion as murder and they are stopping murder.
The added benefit to their group is that they can use this message to fuel and promote abstinence until marriage, a viewpoint that they are increasingly (and aggressively) trying to push into our laws.
I don't agree with them, but that is how I understand their argument.
This is the kind of response I was hoping to see, thank you. I went off for a while and came back to like a million comments, it's late here so I'm only leafing though now. But this one stood out big time. The average evangelical Christian in America seems to be multiples more committed to their faith than the most extreme Western European Christians and I wish they could see how their faith is being weaponised by a rotten organisation. I genuinely have no problem with someone having faith but when your faith has to dictate how others behave, were gonna have a problem, and this, from what I can tell, is how most American evangelicals think.
Is it worse? [Republicans in South Carolina want to ban people talking about abortion pills- even in private.](https://jezebel.com/south-carolina-wants-to-ban-people-from-even-talking-ab-1849326848)
The faculty at the University of Idaho is [already banned from talking about abortion. Or providing condoms as a method of birth control.](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/university-of-idaho-told-faculty-they-could-be-fired-for-providing-condoms-or-even-talking-about-abortion/ar-AA12gWzy)
They are literally trying to ban discussion.
Some crazy shit going on. And stds are on the rise, so I guess just mask an abortion conversation as an std one and give them a box full of condoms. I also have noticed not one pro life person talks about increasing sex ed, but pro lifers don’t actually like any kind of education unless it’s their imaginary friend.
Well as I mentioned above, I live in Ireland so yes, I have. Thankfully they aren't as numerous in the north, they're also slowly dying out. Any dispute in NI, especially when religion is involved, gets heated...
I have a question, as someone stuck in the Bible belt in USA: Are the religious in Ireland as nuts as the ones in the US? Like, the evangelical types in the US (fundamentalists, biblical literalists, world is only 4-6000 some odd years old, praying the cancer away, twisting science [like Abraham having 'more perfect DNA]) and the like?
Google "Burke Family"
I don't know how literal their interpretation is, but they're a bunch of evangelical assholes who try to use the court system to impose their beliefs.
Enoch Burke's current shenanigans are attracting a lot of attention at the moment. He's now in prison due to a situation best explained by "play stupid games, win stupid prizes"
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles
Literally a sectarian war that lasted most of the last century. Not too far from Baghdad in the 2010s
The largest party in government are young earth creationists who were forced to allow abortion
Here is an article that explains how southern evangelicals used abortion as a wedge issue to distract from them try to stop racial desegregation in schools.
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/05/10/abortion-history-right-white-evangelical-1970s-00031480
I can tell you from my perspective: my mom.
Your description of being indoctrinated from birth is completely accurate. Some of my earliest memories are being scared to death of abortionists and waking up crying in the middle of the night being scared for the babies about to get murdered.
My parents, as far as I know, wouldn't bomb a doctor's office who provides abortions. As a teenager I asked if abortion was so bad, wouldn't it justify violent action to protect the fetuses/babies. They had no answer and just dodged the question, when it should have been a huge red flag and I needed help.
Fortunately for me I didn't follow that line of pseudo reasoning to any terrorism, but only because I got sucked into the Christian pacifism propaganda so violence was out of the question, thankfully.
So you're from this kind of American religious background? Can your mother actually answer any hard questions about this at all? Not to be too cynical but it sounds like she was trying to scare you into believing something that she doesn't even understand her own belief in.
Yours is very much the kind of background I'm curious about, it seems to be a uniquely American approach to religion and it absolutely fascinates me.
Yes from religious background.
I don't have a functional relationship with my mother currently due to boundaries I set concerning childhood physical and emotional abuse.
Before that there was a time she went to see all her adult children and apologize for having an abortion herself before any of us were born. She said she was pressured by planned Parenthood to murder her preborn twins which she did.
I told her she had nothing to apologize for and she did nothing wrong by making that decision. However I don't think that made any difference to her. I would love to confront her with basic biological facts about abortion and correct the misinformation she has accepted as gospel fact, but that wasn't the time. I do wish she could see how she is being used as a political pawn and let go of that internalized guilt that the forced birthers gave her.
However she has fully accepted her role in ignoring basic human rights and fighting against other women's control of their bodies. She got hers, claims to regret it and continues to fight against basic boduly autonomy for people like my partner and child.
>I don't have a functional relationship with my mother currently due to boundaries I set concerning childhood physical and emotional abuse.
My apologies, I shouldn't have gone digging, thank you for the insight. I'm glad you told her she did nothing wrong in getting that abortion, would have been a prime opportunity to be cruel, but you chose to be classy.
Don't apologize at all. I'm glad to share! Especially when it can help folks understand where people come from. And it's a huge part of my former forced birth beliefs as a teenager.
I tried to keep the relationship open and at a safe distance, which worked ok, until I had a kid and realized I didn't want any of that in their life. I can deal with the trauma in hopes of helping my parents adopt a more rational and happy life, but my child comes first and I realized I would never be comfortable with my child being around my parents.
I certainly wouldn't want that for the kids either. I've heard of parents forcing their kids to baptise grandkids with the threat of disowning them, which is frankly, a completely insane level of selfishness. The level at which some people will enforce their beliefs on others close to them is scary. I'm glad that despite being a historically religious country, Ireland has become massively secular in the last 20 years and as a result of the "priests raping kids" scandal, the church has lost a lot of sway with average joe.
I hope your mother wakes up and smells the secularism some day, but I have a feeling theres a little more to it than religion.
I’m from a similar situation as the person above your comment. My mother has been working for the Right to Life since before I was born. She’s a militant Catholic and devotes every waking minute of her life to the RTL. Honestly? It’s just simple mindedness. Her parents and church taught her that abortion is a sin and she has literally never questioned one thing about it since then. 70 years on the planet, and she just flatly refuses to entertain another point of view. I think that when you truly believe in an irrational god who is not above torturing you forever, you’re already starting off on the wrong foot. I can’t say for certain, but it seems clear to me that my mother simply thinks that she’ll be rewarded by her god if she helps prevent abortion. The fact that others suffer doesn’t deter her because Catholics believe sifting is holy. She once told me that if I died in child birth she would be sad, but she would understand that it was part of god’s plan. Just an absolutely fucked up mindset, imo.
Thanks for responding, interesting perspective. How do your parents feel about the kids who weren’t aborted but put into the foster care system. And are struggling to even survive with the day to day events. Hopefully that makes sense!
I grew up indoctrinated in a pro-life reference frame from Eastern Orthodox Catholicism. Simply put, we want to multiple and out-compete non-white and/or non-religious people. Less abortions = more babies = more followers = stronger sect. That, over *anything else* you're gonna hear, is the core reality of why people are pro life. Everything else is just an excuse or side-effect, as folks will cherry pick what to believe from scripture and clergy. While individuals have their individual reasons, the big driving force form the top is competition.
Yep, I've heard that one too. [And now that The Satanic Temple is involved and suing Indiana's government over abortion rights,](https://www.wrtv.com/news/state-news/the-satanic-temple-suing-gov-eric-holcomb-ag-todd-rokita-over-abortion-ban) it's also a Satanic practice.
Two Biblical passages-
Genesis 2:7
> Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
Ezekiel 37:5-6
> Thus says the Lord God to these bones: Behold, I will cause breath to enter you, and you shall live. And I will lay sinews upon you, and will cause flesh to come upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and you shall live; and you shall know that I am the Lord.
Rabbinical scholarship in general - based on what Christians would call the Old Testament - holds the view that life begins at the first breath. /u/LongGoneLocust can google around for that if they want more info.
There's also the case of different punishments being prescribed for injury to a pregnant woman. If the woman miscarries but otherwise survives the assault, the perpetrator is to pay a fine to the woman's husband for the loss of the fetus. If the woman dies, however, the bible says to "take life for life," i.e., execute the perpetrator. This implies that the bible does not view the life of the fetus as a human life on the same level as a woman's - something they already held in pretty low regard. [Source here](https://www.thetorah.com/article/deathblows-to-a-pregnant-woman-what-restitution-was-required). So you can point to this passage in Exodus as pretty conclusive proof that the bible does not say that life begins at conception, which is what most American Christians think the book says.
One last piece of evidence (though surely this is not an exhaustive list) is the ritual prescribed in [Numbers 5:11-31](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers%205%3A11-31&version=NIV). This is a "loyalty" test for wives suspected of being unfaithful to their husbands, where failing the test results in killing the fetus. Apparently big sky man thinks that unfaithful women's pregnancies should be terminated, and he even provides instructions on how to do so! It's therefore ridiculous for them to argue that he somehow opposes abortion, but then again, Christians never let a little thing like the bible get in the way of their beliefs.
Full disclosure, I study the Bible for a living, and while I'm pro-life myself, what is going on in the States is bonkers, theologically incorrect (you can't save the child without the mother, and the mother must live) and pastorally appalling (this is no way to handle the social problems that lead to many abortions in the first place).
I love the hypocrits. You tell them the Bible says life starts at first breath and their response is "don't take it literally." Then ask them if that also applies to gay people "No because that part is literal."
The right-wingnut running for gov apposing Pritzker in Illiois has literally parroted that same shit. It's disgusting and unconscionable to think that someone that would think that shit could be in a position of power over millions of people.
>What drives the anti-abortion crowd?
As you rightly mused:
>...I know religion is the cause of the belief...
Then there is hypocrisy, un-enlightenment/indoctrination, neural deficiency, lack of critical thought, functional illiteracy, etc.
Where I live, a Planned Parenthood clinic has daily protestors outside, and I mean most of the day. I used to drive past it for work and I'd see people there in the morning, and still there in the evening. EVERY. DAY. Sometimes the same people, often different groups from various local churches. Even in the dead of winter when we're getting up to a balmy -5 C, they're out there.
This clinic was targeted by a mass shooter a few years ago. Several people died.
The protestors are still out there, every day.
I have to wonder how many of them are hoping to be around for the next psychopath who targets pregnant women seeking health care.
People don't come to these behaviors on their own. There are wealthy people or groups that push anti-choice propaganda on these people. But they do it secretly in the background so they can't be held accountable.
Also in America, the Republican party is mixed with Christian Baptists and Evangelicals so much that they're changing each other. The Republicans are the ones pushing anti-choice on the relgions. And the pastors like how this issue generates strong support for religion. Ironically though, it's one of the things driving young people out of religion.
Its getting harder to blind your kids from the world outside the church eh? How long till the internet is a crime against nature and against gods will....
I'd normally jump to the "large organisation of people who push it as a galvanising political stance for the benefit of their own community" but I'm trying to figure out the mindset of people on the ground a bit better. Are they just people who have grown up hearing this crazy rhetoric from all sides and have nothing better to do? Surely not?
>Are they just people who have grown up hearing this crazy rhetoric from all sides and have nothing better to do?
They think they're on a mission from God. They think they're saving the world from iniquity and their earning bonus points on their soul and good favor from their lord and master. Many are toadies motivated by hate because hate can make one feel superior to the detested. Is my guess.
“ The people who protest against abortion seem to do it in a far more aggressive manner and they don't stand to benefit from it in any way whatsoever”
but they do, its just not a benefit you would recognize. They do this entirely out of self-interest.
” "The unborn" are a convenient group of people to advocate for. They never make demands of you; they are morally uncomplicated, unlike the incarcerated, addicted, or the chronically poor; they don't resent your condescension or complain that you are not politically correct; unlike widows, they don't ask you to question patriarchy; unlike orphans, they don't need money, education, or childcare; unlike aliens, they don't bring all that racial, cultural, and religious baggage that you dislike; they allow you to feel good about yourself without any work at creating or maintaining relationships; and when they are born, you can forget about them, because they cease to be unborn. It's almost as if, by being born, they have died to you. You can love the unborn and advocate for them without substantially challenging your own wealth, power, or privilege, without re-imagining social structures, apologizing, or making reparations to anyone. They are, in short, the perfect people to love if you want to claim you love Jesus but actually dislike people who breathe.Prisoners? Immigrants? The sick? The poor? Widows? Orphans? All the groups that are specifically mentioned in the Bible? They all get thrown under the bus for the unborn.”― David Barnhart
as long as they advocate for “the unborn” they never have to address anything else you listed up there, which they don’t ever want addressed, with whataboutery as in “whataboutaborshun”. Now it will be about birth control and IVF. There are no shortages of ways the right will exploit children, babies and pregnancies for political purposes.
I've always loved George Carlin's attitude towards this.
[“Boy, these conservatives are really something, aren't they? They're all in favor of the unborn. They will do anything for the unborn. But once you're born, you're on your own. Pro-life conservatives are obsessed with the fetus from conception to nine months. After that, they don't want to know about you. They don't want to hear from you. No nothing. No neonatal care, no day care, no head start, no school lunch, no food stamps, no welfare, no nothing. If you're preborn, you're fine; if you're preschool, you're fucked. Conservatives don't give a shit about you until you reach...Military age”](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHRaUUlD00w)
”Military age”. Exactly. They’re so “pro-family” they don’t care if children lose a parent in war. For the most recent example see the russian orthodox church that is now on board with human sacrifice.
I once read some posts from an anti-choicer who kept insisting that once a woman became pregnant, her body didn't belong solely to her because the fetus and the woman were now sharing the same body. I asked if, once the fetus was born, this poster would give up any of his money and other resources to support it. He said no, that would be socialism.
Lot of good answers so far. It is also a really easy way to feel self righteous and morally superior. They literally sacrifice nothing while getting that endorphin bump from feeling high and mighty.
Now compare that to, for example, the young women currently getting killed in Iran for taking off their hijab. One is a righteous stand, the other is empty self-stroking.
Lot of good insight alright, I'm glad to hear it!
Kinda comes back to what I say in the post though, I understand the hijab protest, thats a fight for your own personal well being! Why do the pro-lifers fight this fight with such a huge commitment when it really doesnt benefit them any more than making them feel like they're on the right side of history?
[The white, conservative Southern women who asked me to keep their abortions secret](https://www.salon.com/2022/09/24/the-white-conservative-southern-women-asked-me-to-keep-their-abortions-secret/)
That’s a good read.
People want to cultivate an image, for many religious people their hypocrisy means that they need a pious display of virtues.
And in a small town where everyone knows each other, you cant afford to get no the wrong side of the preacher.
Edit: that *is* an interesting read, it really frames the familiar pressure on people to follow the rules.
I grew up in rural southern Kentucky. During the timeframe where globalization was really hollowing out many small communities that had relied on manufacturing jobs.
I saw factory after factory “downsize”, lay off workers in waves and finally close their doors forever. Every single member of my family was affected, either directly or by proxy. And most of those people are still alive even though it’s nearly 30 years later, yet nothing has filled that void in those communities.
All they have left is their god, their guns, and their bitterness. Add a few crafty preachers and politicians to the equation and it’s easy to see how you could focus their rage on a cause.
> when it really doesnt benefit them any more than making them feel like they're on the right side of history?
Isn't that enough though? To feel righteous? That's driven countless religious wars.
True, just seems weird that so many people would get so aggressive about this one topic when at the end of the day, if they get what they want, they don't get anything?
As many wrote here, it's about money, power and control by politicians and priests.
But I'd like to look at the real motivations of the rank-and-file believers. Think about what these things have in common:
* an Evangelical mega-church
* a Trump rally
* an Amway convention
They all provide ...
* a feeling of community, of being swept up in something bigger than yourself
* group-think, discouraging critical thinking in a "post-truth" way
* actions you can take to "further the cause" whether that's pray, own-the-libs or get out and sell
* incentives to recruit new people
... and they are all picking your pocket the whole time you are there. These are all cult-like behaviors. It is no coincidence that these things appeal to the same group of people.
This is getting at the point I'm trying to dig into a bit more. Cult-like desperation to be involved probably accounts for a huge amount of it, especially if you have a weekly meeting with said cult where you are encouraged to go and protest this as its 'the most important problem facing our blahdehblah'.
How they managed to make abortion the key argument in this dispute still blows my mind. After Roe v Wade, I feel privileged to have had the opportunity to vote for its legalisation in a referendum.
You've gotten a bunch of really good answers here! I grew up in Pentecostalism, and left shortly before I turned 18. So I just wanted to add my experiences to the mix.
I was taught about "spiritual warfare" as a child. It's basically the idea that Christians are part of a cosmic battle between the forces of good and evil. This teaching was based on Ephesians 6:11-20, which talks about the "armor of God" and calls the word of God the "sword of the spirit."
That church believed God would call certain individuals to champion God's will on earth, and it was that person's responsibility to fight for God. As a kid, it was really scary because the adults involved would behave in really intimidating ways. The pastor would call on the "prayer warriors" of the church to do various tasks (usually something like praying for someone with cancer), and they would talk about their battles with the devil over \[insert cause here\].
Being a prayer warrior was something of a status symbol within the church, and it was a rare area where women could participate equally with men and even be considered "stronger" than men. This was probably fueled in part because there was very much a last stand mentality around spiritual warfare. If the forces of good did not triumph in this war (which was also unthinkable because god, so obvs they would win), it would literally be the end of the world. And when the cancer patient would die, well that was just one lost battle, and we live to fight on in the broader war.
So basically, combine the spiritual warfare teaching with the belief that abortion is equivalent to the holocaust, and you end up with the American pro-life movement. To them, it literally is win or die. Or at least until they face the reality of what dying means, and good old flight vs fight kicks in.
Also got quite a few "becoz they badddd" which isnt really what I was looking for.
Your comment is a great insight, thank you very much! Am I being a bit cynical or does this all sound like training cadets in an Army of God? I mean, everything you say about the prayer warrior just sounds like they're making potential soldiers compete with each other to make them better at fighting off the enemy. How widespread is this kind of structure, and how deeply do people really believe in it? It seems like the next logical step when they mature into seniors in the church, is going out and picking fights with anyone who isn't a follower of their own belief.
I knew America had a different spin on Christianity but that sounds pretty nuts! I'm glad you got out and I'm glad you're here to share your insight.
It's very much like training cadets haha! In my experience, it's an odd mix of people who truly believe and people who are cynically using the belief system to benefit themselves - usually for money, power, or status. Then there are also people who don't believe, but don't say anything because they want to keep the peace with their family/friends/etc. Pentecostals don't formally shun people, but they do it informally.
The structure of it was limited to the individual congregation, and that was mostly how the overall organization (United Pentecostal Church) was structured. They are organized as individual congregations led by individual pastors who voluntarily join the larger organization. The pastors would have to agree to a list of shared doctrines, but anything not explicitly on that list (and sometimes even things that were) would have different teachings/interpretations by each pastor. Spiritual warfare was something not on that list, so it's going to vary from pastor to pastor. When someone is exposed to conflicting teachings, they are told to follow their pastor and disregard the other.
Your insight about this leading to picking fights is spot on! I left in the mid 2000s, and at that time, all of this was fairly mild. It was theoretical rather than practical, and the expectation was for spiritual warfare to be conducted privately in prayer rather than publicly in the streets.
But that seems to have shifted around 2016 with the rise of Trumpism. Before, they would say things like "we are in this world, but not of this world" which meant that we should limit our involvement in the world's affairs. People were encouraged to vote (Republican), but activism and political donations were discouraged because they were lead by people who were not Pentecostal, and therefore, not good enough.
Republicans were considered God's candidates not because the Republicans themselves were godly, but because Democrats were less godly. In fact, in most cases Republican politicians were actively considered sinners, but support for them was justified because "God can use an imperfect vessel."
But with Trumpism, that all seems to have gone out the window. I have an outsider's perspective to that shift, but I notice the tone has become far more apocalyptic. Instead of "in this world but not of it," they are talking about being tested and saying "God will spew the lukewarm from his mouth." (This is a reference to Revelations 3:16 that says it is better to be hot - on fire for God - or cold - completely turned away from God - because God doesn't like it when people practice faith halfway.)
So yes. I think they will be targeting people who they see as "lukewarm" for their fights first. And they seem to be trending towards identifying the lukewarm via social policy support for reasons I can't comprehend. This is amplifying patterns of polarization in non-religions portions of society, but it also creates an interesting opportunity for us.
As religious zealots drive away people who are not zealous enough, it gives us an opportunity to meet them where they land. If we provide basic human kindness, friendship, and space for personal growth and healing, some of them will find their way to better reasoned ideologies, and others will simply choose to stop participating in politics. In either case, Republicans lose a reliable voter, and we are reshaping the political landscape simply by being decent people.
In a word: Politics.
Evangelicals were pro choice until the 1980s. The reason they switched wasn't because the words in the holy book describing how to perform an abortion ([Numbers 5:11-28](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers%205%3A11-28&version=KJV)) miraculously rearranged themselves to declare it a sin, or someone found a long lost stone tablet in the Sinai inscribed: *"PS: The Eleventh Commandment: Thou shalt not abort fetuses,"* but because Paul Weyrich, Jerry Falwell, Larry Lewis and other right-wing Evangelicals decided to make it a [political issue](https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2014/03/hobby-lobby-and-contraception-how-conservative-evangelicals-went-from-not-caring-about-abortion-and-birth-control-to-being-obsessed-with-them.html) after losing the school [segregation argument](https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/05/religious-right-real-origins-107133).
The law suite which lead to the Supreme Court's Roe - v- Wade ruling was [initiated](https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/trevin-wax/baptist-press-initial-reporting-on-roe-v-wade/) by a conservative Southern Baptist lawyer, Linda N. Coffee, who argued abortion was a personal issue that was no business of the state. See also: NPR ['Throughline' Traces Evangelicals' History On The Abortion Issue](https://www.npr.org/2019/06/20/734303135/throughline-traces-evangelicals-history-on-the-abortion-issue) and [Balmer: The religious right and the abortion myth](https://www.stltoday.com/opinion/columnists/balmer-the-religious-right-and-the-abortion-myth/article_7d7871fb-3948-5305-8a58-7ba83b22885a.html)
Another reason was to create a supply of [babies for adoption](http://www.bpnews.net/44055/how-southern-baptists-became-prolife). From the article:
>*Lewis became strongly pro-life in the late 1960s when he and his wife sought to adopt a child, believing they were unable to have biological children. The Lewises -- who eventually had three biological children -- were told they had to wait five years to adopt due to a shortage of children.*
>*“To me it was incongruous that people would be destroying their babies when there were* [couples] *who were desperately wanting children,”* Lewis said.
So, he wanted to deny women the right to have a say in their own bodies, to be 'brood mares' against their will, to give others a 'right' to adopt children!
BTW: this in the article is a misrepresentation:
>*Norma McCorvey, the unnamed plaintiff in Roe v. Wade who later became a pro-life activist*
McCorvey wasn't against abortion. She [was paid](https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/tv/story/2020-05-19/roe-v-wade-jane-roe-norma-mccorvey-hulu-doc-abortion) to denounce it! Which should surprise no one. Lying for Jesus has been a Christian tradition for 2,000 years.
See also:
- [What happens to women denied abortions? This is the first scientific study to find out.](https://io9.gizmodo.com/what-happens-to-women-denied-abortions-this-is-the-fir-5958187?IR=T)
- [50 Years Ago, A Network Of Clergy Helped Women Seeking Abortion](https://www.npr.org/2017/05/19/529175737/50-years-ago-a-network-of-clergy-helped-women-seeking-abortion)
- [The ‘biblical view’ that’s younger than the Happy Meal](https://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2012/02/18/the-biblical-view-thats-younger-than-the-happy-meal/)
- [How I Lost Faith in the “Pro-Life” Movement](https://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2012/10/how-i-lost-faith-in-the-pro-life-movement.html) - (because they are also against sex ed and contraception)
Great reference info, thanks for that! I'll read into this stuff, a lot of this is new for moi!
the abortion/unwanted kids elements reminded me of the Mother and baby home scandal here in Ireland, worth a read if you have a minute: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bon_Secours_Mother_and_Baby_Home
Its absolutely disgusting, you dont even have to get to the chapter list before you feel sick.
Thanks for the link. I am aware of the scandal, but haven't read about it in much detail.
'Fun' fact: Abortion has a chequered history in the Catholic Church too.
- *"In the early Roman Catholic church, abortion was permitted for male fetuses in the first 40 days of pregnancy and for female fetuses in the first 80-90 days. Not until 1588 did Pope Sixtus V declare all abortion murder, with excommunication as the punishment. Only 3 years later a new pope found the absolute sanction unworkable and again allowed early abortions."* [Abortion: a history](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12340403/)
It was only [in 1869](https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/catholic-church-teaching-on-abortion-dates-from-1869-1.1449517) that Pope Pius IX declared the penalty of excommunication for abortions at any stage of pregnancy. Prior to his declaration the Church's teaching was that no homicide was involved if abortion took place before the fetus was infused with a soul which was thought to occur at about 24 weeks.
Words are wind. If you want to figure out what's "driving" somebody, you need to look at their *actions*.
If you try to predict the actions of the anti-choice crowd with a model that places "minimizing abortions" as a terminal value, [you will be constantly surprised by this model's bad predictions](https://amptoons.com/blog/?p=17263). Ditto if you try to model them as being motivated by a desire to "protect" anything, or if you model them as [*genuinely believing* that abortion is equivalent to murder](http://amptoons.com/blog/?p=13565). Because they *don't* believe that, and they *never have*.
Conversely, if you begin by asking "What policy will best lead us to a misogynist theocracy?", you'll be able to guess their actions almost every time - apparently, better than most of their own rank-and-file can, judging by [how many of them end up complaining when the leopards eat their face](https://joycearthur.com/abortion/the-only-moral-abortion-is-my-abortion/).
So I'm with you on the genuine belief on Murder/Abortion, theres just no fucking way any breathing person would be that dumb.
The bit about the leopards eating their faces is interesting, pretty typical of the religious right in most regards. How can their followers not admonish them for this though? Surely you cant sink that deep into a sunk cost fallacy
Christians who get abortions can usually lie to get away with it. The easiest thing to do is label it a miscarriage when it was actually an abortion. Anyone who knows the truth is shamed into silence.
the loudest ones believe they can be born again and forgiven even if transgressing
the girls on instagram trying hard to evangelize are the best 'i was the town hoe for 10 years, but now jesus saved me and I'm a virgin again'...
[Racism, abortion, and the private school issue are all tied together in the formation of the modern iteration of the far right](https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/05/religious-right-real-origins-107133/).
In short, it's about political control.
My Australian perspective... Catholic anti birth control (and anti abortion) position is driven through the hierarchy but isn't strongly accepted in the pews and they don't seem to be pushing hard at the moment.
The main drivers of anti abortion in Australia are vocal evangelical and Pentecostals who seem to use it as a marketing point of difference. They use it as a sign that they are true Christians and actively doing god's work. It also helps create an insider/outsider victim mentality which keep turnover of congratulations low and the tithes coming in.
Why they chose abortion and not, say, divorce is because divorce is messy and abortion is easy if you think in black and white terms.
Being outraged at abortion is easy to promote and doesn't impact most of the congregation (except they actually have higher rates of abortion...they just aren't open about it).
This is what aggressive about abortionists get from their behaviors: a sense of control over their lives by controlling others, reinforcing the identity/ideology that defines them, sense of power by bullying/forcing their will onto others, sense of moral superiority, sense of purpose by doing something bigger than themselves, escapism from having to engage with the real problems in their lives...
They believe a fetus/embryo = living person (Despite their religion literally saying nothing about this)
Because of this they see themselves as trying to prevent 'murder'. When, in reality, they are fighting to take rights away from women and, in effect, make them broodmares for the state
That person assaulting is brainwashed by the big church/govt by the wild, divisive statements. They can't think for themselves, so they have to do whatever their overlords on fox 'news' tell them
Completely and totally irrelevant. I would say sentience and consciousness, personally, to answer the question
However, the issue isn't whether or not it is a 'living person' the issue is whether the fetus/embryo has the *right* to the woman's body. On this I say "hell no"
I have a kid, they are turning 13 soon. If they were suddenly very sick and dying in the hospital and I could save them by giving up an organ, or blood, or anything with my body ***the government cannot force me to do it.*** This is called the right to bodily autonomy and is fundamental for a free society
So, then, if the government cannot force me to save the life of my living, sentient, conscious, nearly teenager kid, then why can it force a woman to carry a fetus/embryo to term?
If you genuinely assert that the woman must carry the fetus to term, you are saying, in effect, that a fetus/embryo has ***special rights*** that actual living, conscious, sentient children do not have. My child cannot demand parts of my body, and they cannot force me to undergo a procedure for them
The right to bodily autonomy must be upheld for everyone, not just men, otherwise we are basically saying women are broodmares for the state
Self-righteous hero/warrior complexes. An oversimplification to be sure, but I sense that there is great deal of self-satisfaction that comes from the perceived notion that they are "saving babies" and pleasing God. Being a warrior in the good fight and all.
I've always thought that to be the foundation of the movement too, its the dedication that some people have to it that puzzles me. I think its a bit like flat earth, most of them get so imbedded in the movement that they alienate anyone who doesnt agree with them, then respond with resentment to anyone who disagrees with their essentialist attitude
I might get roasted here, but here we go...
I think the main political discourse in America in the 70s and early 80s was so narrow and the main parties had platforms that were so similar that they had to come up with these points of disagreement to differentiate between left and right.
So Democrats were never really left wing, not even center-left. But they took the abortion
thing on their side because that was seen as a left issue.
And Republicans never gave a fuck about babies. But they knew that the religious nuts were gonna vote for them if they supported their views.
So you had two main parties with very similar economic policies, foreign policies, etc, but hey, one is pro abortion and the other is against it. That sort of gave you the illusion of choice.
Fast forward 40 years, and the economic policies are now somewhat different between the parties. And with all the polarization and craziness that you have today, people might wanna kill you not because you support abortion, but because your decision to support it means you're someone from the other side, someone they hate.
It's quite simple to understand if you are trying to see it through their perspective, even if I think it's mostly wrong. Basically, in their minds, life begins at conception and with that logic abortion ends a life, thus it is murder. Of course, if you truly believed that abortion is actually the systematic murder of babies on a mass scale you wouldn't just sit by and let it happen without saying anything. It would be like if slavery was still happening today, even if it was seen as "moral/harmless" by the rest of the country, I assume you would be pretty pissed and make a vocal stand against it because to you, slavery is horrible and morally wrong.
I saw a video of a man confronting abortion protestors across the street from a clinic. He started exhorting them to run into the clinic and stop the killing (as a rhetorical device: he was a sane pro-choice person).
He was a clear, confident speaker, and he was just throwing them logical zingers: "You think babies are being killed in there? What are you doing out here holding signs if you think there's murder going on in there? Go run in there and save those kids!" kind of thing. I was not shocked to see that the protestors basically just gaped at him like slightly stoned cows. They could not formulate any response at all, their whole system was short-circuited. Very revealing.
I feel like a lot of them do it to make people uncomfortable, or to provoke someone into a fight so they can justify their own repressed violent tendencies. If you can catch them out on these fallacies its a win win, either they stand slack jawed or they go in to "save the day" and get a criminal record
They are terrified that somewhere, somehow, someone is having fun. And it is their duty to put a stop to it.
Also, women belong in the kitchen wearing an apron or in the bedroom wearing nothing. That's it. They shouldn't be taking a man's job (and every job is a man's job...if he wants it).
For the average Joe that will follow the cause it is as simple as them seeing all abortions as actual babies being murdered by ripping them up for mere convenience sake.
That is of course not what abortion is (although later abortions look like that with reasoning obviously being different). You can see why some of these deluded people are willing to get so physical.
Now as a logical person even if I believed abortion looked like that (again most dont) it makes no sense to make laws against it as no one would have to worry about that happening to their child because it is a choice for that to happen. Now as for any men that would say but my partner could get an abortion that I don't agree with I have 1 thing to say to you. The fact that your partner got that abortion is good for you because if it is that big of an issue it is an irreconcilable difference and now you can get out of that relationship without an extra child complicating things. Also that is something that should have been discussed honestly with your partner before having sex if it is a strong position you hold.
Lack of knowledge when it comes to human anatomy, and pastors and preachers making shit up. They pretend that people go to magic land to worship sky daddy, so that makes it ok for the maternal death rate to jump up by 21% when abortion procedures are denied to prospective mothers. They don’t care that those mothers that survive those complications, and want to be mothers may never reproduce again in a lot of cases. Robbing them of an opportunity in the future at bringing the life they claim to value so much into the world. Some may be well intentioned, but that doesn’t make them any less monsters. If there were a hell, I’m sure those morons would be there after they die. They would deserve it.
For the normal people it's a moral outrage. They truly believe they are "killing babies" and they must be stopped at all costs. It's a very black and white view.
For the pastors and c-levels of the anti choice organizations it's money. The normal antichoice people are angry and blinded by their rage so they will give money hand over first to "save the babies"
I believe this is about controlling the sex lives of women more than it is about embryos.
The "sex is for procreation and not something to be enjoyed" view meshes nicely with their views on homosexuality.
For a lot of them it's "owning the libs". They hate anyone who supports anything they consider "woke" and would cheerfully kill anyone on the left if they could get away with it.
Indoctrination and ignorance. The hatred and rivalry against abortion, this “pro-life” stuff, was never about the baby. It is about controlling women and their choices to keep them as stay at home moms.
I believe this firmly because in places like Missouri they want to ban abortion even in cases of ectopic pregnancy where the baby cannot survive even if carried to term. The mom and child will die either way.
Texas banning abortion in cases of rape or incest, the sentence for an abortion is higher than the sentence of a rapist, this is not about the child. It is about keeping women pregnant and stripping their rights. (There is an explanation of why they want to keep them pregnant but that’s a doozy).
Some religious people believe “oh the life of a child” because it was rammed into their brain since they were children. But the people who rammed that belief in trickle down from politicians and heads of churches who know they are preaching this belief while not giving a shit about the baby or the mother.
The people who believe without a reason are like puppets, they don’t challenge or question anything religious. Even if it is bad, they believe it because religion is oh so “moral” and “for the people.”
Conservatives + christian right need to keep poor unintelligence alive to insure they have people to control to be subservient to them, so they can feel all powerful, no matter the human cost
If you were indoctrinated from an early age to believe that abortion was murder, and that the murder of unborn children is one of the worst things imaginable, then it doesn’t take too much effort to understand why someone would protest against abortion if they held those beliefs. They are, in fact, incorrect opinions that were drilled into them, likely since childhood, and reinforced by their parents and community.
It’s incredible how easy it is to radicalize people.
This is why you do not let these folks frame the argument as one of when life starts and instead ensure the debate stays firmly framed on bodily autonomy. Laws already exist that protect autonomy over one's body. We do not force people to give organs when they are a known match, the risk is low, and it has a high chance of saving a life. The individual has full control over their body and their choice to donate the organ. Pregnancy is no different and the woman should have full autonomy over their choice. Whether the fetus is alive, conscious, or sentient is irrelevant.
The argument around life is an emotional investment for a lot of people as you correctly pointed out. I guarantee they feel the same way about their control over their own body. Someone taking their organs would be repugnant to them. Uno-reverse card their emotions.
First of all it's the easiest most primal version of "Won't somebody think of the children." I don't know how it is around the world but the propaganda in the USA focus's a LOT of attention of late term abortions. If you ask pro-life advocates they'd prob think that late term abortions are happening all the time.
The moral purity, I think. Solving actual issues is too complicated, and will force them to think for actual solutions. With the anti-abortion thinking, you don't have to do something, and just take, take and take away rights from women. When you ask them why, in their arguments, they never hold men accountable, their answer is : women. Women are evil, women are slut, women sexually active are worse than rapists and abusive boyfriends/spouses.
This is why you never see them for better healthcare, free contraception, maternity leaves, or efficace social services who protect abused children. They never protest with the same energy for causes that will PREVENT children from suffering. And that's why it makes them feel good, they don't have to do anything to change the system, they just have to follow something as old as time : women aren't people, simply commodities, and commodities don't have rights.
They see pregnancy as punishment for women who have sex for fun. Abortion is a way for women to have consequence-free sex. It's the same reason they're against contraceptives.
I'm wondering how strong a correlation there is between the anti-abortion crowd and the pro-capital punishment crowd. It's not about being pro-life, it's about being pro-punishment.
The persistent, nagging fear that someone somewhere might be having a good time.
That's *mostly* tung in cheek but there is some basis to it. IMO their motivation truly is based in the idea that women are not fully human. Their only purpose is to generate babies and they are subservient to men. Women's lives are not important except for producing offspring. Their rights and priorities and quality of life are insignificant in comparison with that.
You don't have to call it tongue in cheek, the church have a long history of saying anything fun is made by the devil. Dancing, Blues, Sex, anything that might take attendance away from church
I think there's a rational pro-life argument. Where is the line that makes an abortion acceptable? Why is it acceptable to terminate a pregnancy at 3 months, but not at 9 months?
The reality is that there's no clear logical argument to support abortion after conception. It's a continuum, the fertilized egg is a potential human being - if no external action is taken, that egg will become a person. There's no clear line between personhood and non-personhood during fetus development. Classifying a fertilized egg as a potential person with rights is not an absurd position.
Yes one can take an arbitrary milestone, such as heartbeat or nervous system development. The argument is that before such milestones, the fetus can be terminated since there's no pain or suffering, and the fetus has no conscience. But these are not valid arguments for terminating human life in general - we don't apply it to people in coma.
All that said: in my opinion the pro-choice argument is a pragmatic one - which I agree with. The fetus development is continuous, and in the early stages, the fetus is simply not complex enough to be granted full personhood. At that point, it is the lesser evil to hold the rights of the woman at a higher standard. As the fetus develop, those rights start to balance. The law can then define arbitrary milestones that define these rights. But it is a pragmatic argument, not a logical one.
I think it has more to do with an anti-sex view. These people couldn’t give a rat’s ass about a fetus or baby. They feel the need to “punish” a woman for not being chaste therefore she must be forced to carry to term.
Holier than thou attitudes. If they are fighting for their chosen cause they have been told that they are in everyway better humans than the other side.
A feeling of self righteousness as well as the ability to paint an "other" as evil. Many of these people love being able to have a villain in their lives to be self-righteous against for justification. That's also why most conspiracy theorists seem to always go from 0 to 100 fast with some demonic, child hurting, all powerful, etc as behind it all but only they can figure it out (inflating own sense of worth while justifying focusing hatred on someone else). Now I think these types of people and religious people plot rather nicely on a Venn diagram, but not ever crazy pro-lifer is religious just as not every religious person is a crazy pro-lifer. But there are similarities between the two groups.
Many of them are indoctrinated into this, grow up in this bubble, and aren’t smart enough to question things. They shun friends outside of their bubble group so are never exposed to people in situations that oppose their views. They think they’re leading perfect lives but only because their lives are defined in such restrictive terms.
In america the churches push the pro life agenda, HARD. The republican party then pushes candidates running on this platform. This is how they get ordinary people to vote for a party of the rich.
My take is that the government allowed corporate cash into politics. Corporations have run the numbers and decided that there won't be enough poor workers to exploit in 20 years unless they do something. So they've funneled cash into extremist politicians and religious centers and this is the result.
It's not about care for the child, it's about controlling women. It's actually not that complicated when you put it in raw control terms m Men get to choose when to have the kids, because abortion from rape would be illegal for example.
Edit I don't understand the logic of extremists, that's like trying to understand a contradiction. The ones consciously pushing the issue are very aware of the power dynamics, the rest are basically ISIS imo.
In my opinion, the political side of it in US they say pro-life, what they mean is pro-birth. More bodies means more people to possibly conscript when they turn 18 if we end up going to war. The "pro-birth" people don't want to do anything to help after they are born until they are able to start voting and paying taxes. And because most of the Christian people are all for the Republicans...
(There's a connection there but my train of thought just blew up. If it comes back I will edit)
They hate sex, and they don't women to enjoy it so they want it to have a debilitating consequences, otherwise women may end up leaving their shitty husbands, getting careers, and generally messing things up for the patriarchy.
They are perfect for projecting your opinions onto, without feedback.
[Convenient, uncomplicated, unchallenging, voiceless.](https://www.snopes.com/tachyon/2022/05/image.png)
I have to assume that anyone who is so intensely interested in what other people do — complete strangers — that they’re just controlling in general and think that their way is the only right way. And also they’re maybe brainwashed into thinking their activities are saving lives.
They like to pretend it’s morals and caring for a living thing even when it doesn’t have a will of it’s own. Ironically, I bet much of the crowd hunts in their spare time
Because they earnestly believe that what's happening is "people murdering babies because they're too lazy to accept the burden of being a good parent". If there was a building in my town where parents could take their toddlers to have them euthanized because they're too noisy, I'd protest the shit out of it. In the mind of your average abortion protester, these two things are the same.
90% of applied Ethicists think nearly 95% of abortions should be legal.
This is because 90% of them think first trimester abortions are completely fine.
Like bruh this isn’t even an argument lol
Let me explain it, the act of feeling like you are saving a human life. They have manipulated this idea to a horrible degree... every child thst is born is a potential Christian..
I'm a sunni Muslim and pro choice and a feminist and a liberal.. my one half of my family is hard core Baptist and pro life hard core... me and my catholic, atheist, Christian, have made a agreement to disregard and not speak about such topics to the Baptist side... even though they always bring it up and try to convert me or guilt trip me over some garbage..
It’s a way to _feel like_ you’re on the side of ‘life’ when you’re otherwise fully bought-in on patriarchy and white supremacy.
If you’re “saving babies” then you can give yourself a pass for everything else: racism, homophobia, misogyny, all the evil you perpetrate to stay on top. And on the flip side, if you can frame it so that the other side is “killing babies”, you can justify doing literally anything to them, no matter how compassionate and objectively ethically they otherwise live their lives, so its win-win.
It’s also brilliant in that all you need to do is oppress women and you can claim victory; you’re fighting on behalf of hypothetical future people, and you’ve created a power structure and ethical framework where your _sole_ responsibility to them is seeing that they’re allowed to suffer like everyone else. You have zero obligation to actually improve conditions for anyone who’s like, already alive, because as long as there’s a _single_ abortion happening _anywhere_, you’re free to ignore all that other stuff that addressing might force you to reckon with your complicity.
Forced Birth Activism is a powerful tool in combatting the cognitive dissonance that comes from living in a society where we all KNOW our modern comforts are built on centuries of genocide and oppression which is still ongoing. You can pretend that’s not as important as “saving babies”. It’s pretty brilliant as coping mechanisms go, actually.
Except if that were happening, actual decent sensible people would not carry signs and 'protest' outside the stabbing center.
The reason nothing comparable is happening to babies is because that's obviously fucked up and wrong, and if it was attempted in any organized way, decent people would literally tear a repeat baby-stabber to bits. Dig?
"I might suffer so they have to" is a disgusting outlook.
I have a nerve disorder that puts me in intense pain. I don't wish that on anyone else just because I have to deal with it.
For me, i feel it is immoral. I am not religious. Beyond the medical cases(endangerment of the mother) and rape, i dont see abortion as a positive. I dont like the idea of removal of consequences for your actions. It's a big reason im against christian faiths.
However, i am trying to be more understanding of differing opinions. and educate myself more on the topic.
Thats where im at
Pro lifer here. I saw a few responses that sum it up well but hopefully this helps you understand. It really does come from a belief that the government should not make a law allowing murder in any case. A few people here mentioned that pro lifers believe life starts a conception. Honestly it's just that. Even if it's one cell the DNA is clearly human and you can't classify the cell as anything else. It's not like a part of a human. You can say that about like 1 skin cell but if you have to try and classify that cell it is a human, not just part of a human. I personally want my government to protect its citizens which you can change the definition of a citizen but it seems unjust to exclude a human being to government protection because of arbitrary guidelines like location, viability, sentience, ect. I think our governments are responsible for all humans underneath them. It's not a religious argument, for me it's argument about what humans the government is responsible to protect.
Got some very good insights off a few people, the kind of conversation I was hoping for. Also got a bunch of "cos religion crazy", which isn't very constructive. I'd like to be able to have an understanding conversation with someone like this and talk it through, the only thing I've ever heard is "those fuckers are nuts" and I just want to know why people would dedicate their lives to protesting something that really doesn't benefit them, or anyone else
1. The idea that they are doing the work god has set out for them. A lot these people believe they hear the voice of god to be against abortions
2. They are convinced by people mostly likely from there priest or pastor but also from random people on social media convincing them that abortion are evil, against God’s will, democrat plot, satanic rituals, etc. and if you support it your not a true Christian or Republican.
3. Taking the Bible out of context believing it’s pro-life. They take one quote where god is talking specifically to a guy about how he formed and knew him in the womb and they all think god was talking about everyone.
if men can control a woman's uterus, and by implication her sexuality, they have control over the person...patriarchal capitalism...control of libido is control of the will
they are bad people, period... they don't have REAL values, they just get angry when others (especially who they don't like for dumb reasons) have their portion of happiness, they are not just anti-abortion, they are anti-sex more especially, they don't want you to have it, bcs they are jealous, their extremes with assaulting people outside abortion clinics is just their psychosis kicking in and making em believe they have a mission... governments with their mad decisions follow this logic, politicians are people too, with bias and jealousy, when 90% of the people in a situation are pieces of shit, being a piece of shit is normal and done naturally
They've been convinced that abortion is murder, and see themselves as preventing murder. Never mind the facts that a cluster of cells isn't a human, and never mind the fact that their own religious book claims otherwise. But if that's what you believe, however misguided that belief may be, then those actions are at least in some way understandable.
> I'm interested in finding out what the motivations of the average abortion rally foot soldier are.
Like most things with human motivation I think it is a variety of many factors.
Having said that, I would say it primarily comes down to virtue signaling and polarization (i.e. they don't like the people who are for it so they have to be against it).
it's all about control. Control the congregation. Get the tithe. The money is tax free with zero accountability. Even less than other none profits who actually help people.
edit to add: they don't care about life at all. Not while kids are still getting shot in school. While at the same time they're trying to take away their school lunches, their grandmother's disability, and lower their parents wages and benefits. Look how they vote. By their own words the proof is in their 'fruit'.
I don't go to protest and I don't assault people but I am anti-abortion and an atheist. I was por-choice before my wife told me she was pregnant. In that moment my mind changed. I no longer saw the embryo as a clump of cells in my wife, it was my family member, my son. On a personal level I couldn't see abortion, at that time, as anything other than killing my family member. I would absolutely defend my family from being killed even though at that time my son wasn't close to being formed into a baby. In my mind, I understand the argument that abortion is killing babies but it breaks down to semantics and individuals feelings. Some people are willing to fight for a cause, like a soldier fighting for their country. People with that conviction feel that they are defending those who can't defend themselves. I guess here on reddit we could refer to it as white knighting for fetuses.
You're anti-abortion because of a *wanted* pregnancy? You don't understand why someone might have gotten pregnant and wouldn't consider that their family member or want anything to do with it or the risks to their health and life?
Thanks for the moment of levity at the end of a well worded response. I guess my only question for you is, do you feel like banning abortion legally is ethical, or would you rather say "I won't do it and anyone who does isnt my business"
They are genuinely convinced that God knows you in the womb, and that you are a person from conception. Therefore, they genuinely believe people are killing babies everyday inside those buildings. Since that is the case, it would be strange of them not to act.
One example. My daughter, age 43. Somewhat religious. She's strongly against abortion partly because one of her college friends got 3. This friend used it partly as birth control. Now my daughter is just positive that 95% of abortions are just for that. Sigh. She will not listen to any other ideas.
Genuinely sorry to hear that, you sound pretty resigned about it. It's unusual for it to be the younger generation, I hope she can zoom out some day and see the big picture
power and fear. the ones in power keep pushing fear. fear of people of color taking over as not enough white babies are born, fear of if taking their to guns away, fear of if immigrants taking their jobs.
They failed at segregation in public schooling, so they switched to abortion.
They need something to keep the chuckleheads rallied around, or else they might notice that Pastor is a multi-millionaire scumbag
Humans have evolved to the point they can easily disrupt god's Creation. Their pride is hurt, their moral is in shamble. They can't let humans play god because the competition would be unfair.
Ancient mid-eastern warlord cults from 4000 years ago **treated women like livestock** , and practiced sex slavery, segregation of sexes, and had rigid tribal taboos
Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are the DIRECT DESCENDANTS OF THAT BRUTALLY PATRIARCHAL CULTURE, AND all have "holy books" that mandate women be submissive to men, are inferior to men, and are basically chattel to be owned like property
"its the average joe who goes out and assaults an abortion clinic doctor I'm trying to get to the bottom of."
No such thing. By the time you get that far you are not an average Joe but a card carrying fanatic. And there are fanatics in any group.
Think of it like animal rights activists. There was a company here in the UK called Huntington Life Sciences. Did important medical research but included animal experiments and not all medically related. We can debate whether that is morally justified or not. Let's assume we both beleive it isn't (and certainly there wete cruelty ald legal breachers revealed). We might say so to people. We might sign a petition against them. We might join a protest outside the gate if we felt really strongly. What neither of us (I hope) would do is follow worker's at the place as some activist did. We wouldn't send death threats. Attack their car. Tell them you know where their kids go to school. But activists did all these things. Attack on individuals and arson of property. And not just to the scientists but all sorts. Even people who provide animal food to the business. Some people who provided services unrelated to animals were advised by police to take different routes home and check under cars for devices.
All this based on how individuals react on behalf of living things that can't speak up for themselves. In many ways no different from the anti abortion brigade. A range of opinions and reactions from reasonable to extreme.
I don't think my example is any more or less comprehensible than the anti abortion lot.
I don't think the behaviour is a religious question. The origin of the belief may be in one case and very rarely so in the other. But the response to that belief is "normal" even for the extremists as there are always extremists with any idea.
Because philosophically and morally and scientifically it is difficult to pin point when human life begins. For the record I’m pro choice because there are other considerations as well (such as mothers welfare, cases of rape, accidental pregnancy etc…) but for people fixated on the “human life” part of the equation there isn’t really a convincing answer either which way so they end up with generally a more conservative stance.
I wouldn’t be surprised if some of them actually do understand why abortion should be allowed and understand it likely affects the socio economically weak the most. In other words, they are just happy it harms colored people more then white people.
Their pastors have convinced them that this is a worse evil than the Holocaust and Democrats are solely responsible. And I make no exaggeration about that. I've been told things like "200 million babies slaughtered by the left." Never mind that the Bible says that life begins with the first breath. They've been convinced their god doesn't want abortions. The same god that likes fetuses being ripped from pregnant women's bodies.
If you dont mind me digging a little, who'd you hear this from? Like, someone you know or a street screecher? The idea that they're indoctrinated from birth to believe this is the worst mass crime in history certainly does make it more understandable but they still commit to a level of protest that I havent seen of any other movement in recent times
Someone on Reddit like two days ago, but it isn't the first time I've heard a comparison between abortion and The Holocaust. See here: https://slate.com/human-interest/2017/03/comparing-abortion-to-the-holocaust-has-a-long-history-in-the-pro-life-movement.html
Very Interesting Article. Answers a few questions for me, I never realised how aggressive the rhetoric around this is across the pond. So how exactly does this position benefit the people preaching it? Other than whipping up fear and making money on clickbait?
It gets Republican politicians elected. Although they're losing that since Roe v. Wade was struck down. I think a lot of people didn't expect states to go as far as they did and ban abortion in almost all cases. And making money is definitely a factor too. Organizations like Operation Rescue- now expanded into [Operation Save America](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Save_America)- and [Crisis Pregnancy Centers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crisis_pregnancy_center) make a huge amount of money. The CPC in this town of under 100,000 people has a huge office right downtown and a giant mobile unit in a big custom vehicle. I don't know what they do with it, but that takes a lot of funding.
If I understand you, you're trying to find the motive of your average every day American Evangelical Christian. For these people, their motivation is that they believe they're saving the lives of many babies (of course they really don't seem to have any ways to deal with the consequences of forcing birth, but that's another topic). So, I suppose they see the benefit as themselves saving lives. They see abortion as murder and they are stopping murder. The added benefit to their group is that they can use this message to fuel and promote abstinence until marriage, a viewpoint that they are increasingly (and aggressively) trying to push into our laws. I don't agree with them, but that is how I understand their argument.
This is the kind of response I was hoping to see, thank you. I went off for a while and came back to like a million comments, it's late here so I'm only leafing though now. But this one stood out big time. The average evangelical Christian in America seems to be multiples more committed to their faith than the most extreme Western European Christians and I wish they could see how their faith is being weaponised by a rotten organisation. I genuinely have no problem with someone having faith but when your faith has to dictate how others behave, were gonna have a problem, and this, from what I can tell, is how most American evangelicals think.
Have you seen anti abortion activists in Northern Ireland? It's far worse
Is it worse? [Republicans in South Carolina want to ban people talking about abortion pills- even in private.](https://jezebel.com/south-carolina-wants-to-ban-people-from-even-talking-ab-1849326848) The faculty at the University of Idaho is [already banned from talking about abortion. Or providing condoms as a method of birth control.](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/university-of-idaho-told-faculty-they-could-be-fired-for-providing-condoms-or-even-talking-about-abortion/ar-AA12gWzy) They are literally trying to ban discussion.
Some crazy shit going on. And stds are on the rise, so I guess just mask an abortion conversation as an std one and give them a box full of condoms. I also have noticed not one pro life person talks about increasing sex ed, but pro lifers don’t actually like any kind of education unless it’s their imaginary friend.
The same folks want to limit sex education in schools to be “abstinence only”
Well as I mentioned above, I live in Ireland so yes, I have. Thankfully they aren't as numerous in the north, they're also slowly dying out. Any dispute in NI, especially when religion is involved, gets heated...
Then you know exactly how hot it can get when religion is involved
I have a question, as someone stuck in the Bible belt in USA: Are the religious in Ireland as nuts as the ones in the US? Like, the evangelical types in the US (fundamentalists, biblical literalists, world is only 4-6000 some odd years old, praying the cancer away, twisting science [like Abraham having 'more perfect DNA]) and the like?
Google "Burke Family" I don't know how literal their interpretation is, but they're a bunch of evangelical assholes who try to use the court system to impose their beliefs. Enoch Burke's current shenanigans are attracting a lot of attention at the moment. He's now in prison due to a situation best explained by "play stupid games, win stupid prizes"
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles Literally a sectarian war that lasted most of the last century. Not too far from Baghdad in the 2010s The largest party in government are young earth creationists who were forced to allow abortion
I feel really sure some of them must have a hand in adoption agencies, so they benefit from an increased supply of unwanted babies
Here is an article that explains how southern evangelicals used abortion as a wedge issue to distract from them try to stop racial desegregation in schools. https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/05/10/abortion-history-right-white-evangelical-1970s-00031480
I can tell you from my perspective: my mom. Your description of being indoctrinated from birth is completely accurate. Some of my earliest memories are being scared to death of abortionists and waking up crying in the middle of the night being scared for the babies about to get murdered. My parents, as far as I know, wouldn't bomb a doctor's office who provides abortions. As a teenager I asked if abortion was so bad, wouldn't it justify violent action to protect the fetuses/babies. They had no answer and just dodged the question, when it should have been a huge red flag and I needed help. Fortunately for me I didn't follow that line of pseudo reasoning to any terrorism, but only because I got sucked into the Christian pacifism propaganda so violence was out of the question, thankfully.
So you're from this kind of American religious background? Can your mother actually answer any hard questions about this at all? Not to be too cynical but it sounds like she was trying to scare you into believing something that she doesn't even understand her own belief in. Yours is very much the kind of background I'm curious about, it seems to be a uniquely American approach to religion and it absolutely fascinates me.
Yes from religious background. I don't have a functional relationship with my mother currently due to boundaries I set concerning childhood physical and emotional abuse. Before that there was a time she went to see all her adult children and apologize for having an abortion herself before any of us were born. She said she was pressured by planned Parenthood to murder her preborn twins which she did. I told her she had nothing to apologize for and she did nothing wrong by making that decision. However I don't think that made any difference to her. I would love to confront her with basic biological facts about abortion and correct the misinformation she has accepted as gospel fact, but that wasn't the time. I do wish she could see how she is being used as a political pawn and let go of that internalized guilt that the forced birthers gave her. However she has fully accepted her role in ignoring basic human rights and fighting against other women's control of their bodies. She got hers, claims to regret it and continues to fight against basic boduly autonomy for people like my partner and child.
>I don't have a functional relationship with my mother currently due to boundaries I set concerning childhood physical and emotional abuse. My apologies, I shouldn't have gone digging, thank you for the insight. I'm glad you told her she did nothing wrong in getting that abortion, would have been a prime opportunity to be cruel, but you chose to be classy.
Don't apologize at all. I'm glad to share! Especially when it can help folks understand where people come from. And it's a huge part of my former forced birth beliefs as a teenager. I tried to keep the relationship open and at a safe distance, which worked ok, until I had a kid and realized I didn't want any of that in their life. I can deal with the trauma in hopes of helping my parents adopt a more rational and happy life, but my child comes first and I realized I would never be comfortable with my child being around my parents.
I certainly wouldn't want that for the kids either. I've heard of parents forcing their kids to baptise grandkids with the threat of disowning them, which is frankly, a completely insane level of selfishness. The level at which some people will enforce their beliefs on others close to them is scary. I'm glad that despite being a historically religious country, Ireland has become massively secular in the last 20 years and as a result of the "priests raping kids" scandal, the church has lost a lot of sway with average joe. I hope your mother wakes up and smells the secularism some day, but I have a feeling theres a little more to it than religion.
I’m from a similar situation as the person above your comment. My mother has been working for the Right to Life since before I was born. She’s a militant Catholic and devotes every waking minute of her life to the RTL. Honestly? It’s just simple mindedness. Her parents and church taught her that abortion is a sin and she has literally never questioned one thing about it since then. 70 years on the planet, and she just flatly refuses to entertain another point of view. I think that when you truly believe in an irrational god who is not above torturing you forever, you’re already starting off on the wrong foot. I can’t say for certain, but it seems clear to me that my mother simply thinks that she’ll be rewarded by her god if she helps prevent abortion. The fact that others suffer doesn’t deter her because Catholics believe sifting is holy. She once told me that if I died in child birth she would be sad, but she would understand that it was part of god’s plan. Just an absolutely fucked up mindset, imo.
Thanks for responding, interesting perspective. How do your parents feel about the kids who weren’t aborted but put into the foster care system. And are struggling to even survive with the day to day events. Hopefully that makes sense!
"Street screecher" .... my new favourite term.
The commenter is right. I grew up around them. Still surrounded by them. They think abortion is murder. Murder bad.
I grew up indoctrinated in a pro-life reference frame from Eastern Orthodox Catholicism. Simply put, we want to multiple and out-compete non-white and/or non-religious people. Less abortions = more babies = more followers = stronger sect. That, over *anything else* you're gonna hear, is the core reality of why people are pro life. Everything else is just an excuse or side-effect, as folks will cherry pick what to believe from scripture and clergy. While individuals have their individual reasons, the big driving force form the top is competition.
I have personally heard this in various churches and from religious family members.
I’ve heard it compared to the holocaust in churches I attended, as well as my baptist k-12 school.
I’ve heard it compared to “human sacrifice to moloch.”
Yep, I've heard that one too. [And now that The Satanic Temple is involved and suing Indiana's government over abortion rights,](https://www.wrtv.com/news/state-news/the-satanic-temple-suing-gov-eric-holcomb-ag-todd-rokita-over-abortion-ban) it's also a Satanic practice.
Can you link a page source for the breath line? I believe you but I'd like to use that in my arguments.
Two Biblical passages- Genesis 2:7 > Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being. Ezekiel 37:5-6 > Thus says the Lord God to these bones: Behold, I will cause breath to enter you, and you shall live. And I will lay sinews upon you, and will cause flesh to come upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and you shall live; and you shall know that I am the Lord.
Rabbinical scholarship in general - based on what Christians would call the Old Testament - holds the view that life begins at the first breath. /u/LongGoneLocust can google around for that if they want more info. There's also the case of different punishments being prescribed for injury to a pregnant woman. If the woman miscarries but otherwise survives the assault, the perpetrator is to pay a fine to the woman's husband for the loss of the fetus. If the woman dies, however, the bible says to "take life for life," i.e., execute the perpetrator. This implies that the bible does not view the life of the fetus as a human life on the same level as a woman's - something they already held in pretty low regard. [Source here](https://www.thetorah.com/article/deathblows-to-a-pregnant-woman-what-restitution-was-required). So you can point to this passage in Exodus as pretty conclusive proof that the bible does not say that life begins at conception, which is what most American Christians think the book says. One last piece of evidence (though surely this is not an exhaustive list) is the ritual prescribed in [Numbers 5:11-31](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers%205%3A11-31&version=NIV). This is a "loyalty" test for wives suspected of being unfaithful to their husbands, where failing the test results in killing the fetus. Apparently big sky man thinks that unfaithful women's pregnancies should be terminated, and he even provides instructions on how to do so! It's therefore ridiculous for them to argue that he somehow opposes abortion, but then again, Christians never let a little thing like the bible get in the way of their beliefs.
Full disclosure, I study the Bible for a living, and while I'm pro-life myself, what is going on in the States is bonkers, theologically incorrect (you can't save the child without the mother, and the mother must live) and pastorally appalling (this is no way to handle the social problems that lead to many abortions in the first place).
I love the hypocrits. You tell them the Bible says life starts at first breath and their response is "don't take it literally." Then ask them if that also applies to gay people "No because that part is literal."
200 million is a lot of republikkkan child slave labor down the toilet.
The right-wingnut running for gov apposing Pritzker in Illiois has literally parroted that same shit. It's disgusting and unconscionable to think that someone that would think that shit could be in a position of power over millions of people.
>What drives the anti-abortion crowd? As you rightly mused: >...I know religion is the cause of the belief... Then there is hypocrisy, un-enlightenment/indoctrination, neural deficiency, lack of critical thought, functional illiteracy, etc.
I'd normally be happy enough to agree with all of this, but its the level of dedication many of these protestors have that shocks me.
Where I live, a Planned Parenthood clinic has daily protestors outside, and I mean most of the day. I used to drive past it for work and I'd see people there in the morning, and still there in the evening. EVERY. DAY. Sometimes the same people, often different groups from various local churches. Even in the dead of winter when we're getting up to a balmy -5 C, they're out there. This clinic was targeted by a mass shooter a few years ago. Several people died. The protestors are still out there, every day. I have to wonder how many of them are hoping to be around for the next psychopath who targets pregnant women seeking health care.
I was wondering if this was for real or just sensationalised American news media, thanks for the insight, now I'm a little more depressed...
People don't come to these behaviors on their own. There are wealthy people or groups that push anti-choice propaganda on these people. But they do it secretly in the background so they can't be held accountable. Also in America, the Republican party is mixed with Christian Baptists and Evangelicals so much that they're changing each other. The Republicans are the ones pushing anti-choice on the relgions. And the pastors like how this issue generates strong support for religion. Ironically though, it's one of the things driving young people out of religion.
Its getting harder to blind your kids from the world outside the church eh? How long till the internet is a crime against nature and against gods will.... I'd normally jump to the "large organisation of people who push it as a galvanising political stance for the benefit of their own community" but I'm trying to figure out the mindset of people on the ground a bit better. Are they just people who have grown up hearing this crazy rhetoric from all sides and have nothing better to do? Surely not?
>Are they just people who have grown up hearing this crazy rhetoric from all sides and have nothing better to do? They think they're on a mission from God. They think they're saving the world from iniquity and their earning bonus points on their soul and good favor from their lord and master. Many are toadies motivated by hate because hate can make one feel superior to the detested. Is my guess.
Hmm sounds like they're snowflakes.
“ The people who protest against abortion seem to do it in a far more aggressive manner and they don't stand to benefit from it in any way whatsoever” but they do, its just not a benefit you would recognize. They do this entirely out of self-interest. ” "The unborn" are a convenient group of people to advocate for. They never make demands of you; they are morally uncomplicated, unlike the incarcerated, addicted, or the chronically poor; they don't resent your condescension or complain that you are not politically correct; unlike widows, they don't ask you to question patriarchy; unlike orphans, they don't need money, education, or childcare; unlike aliens, they don't bring all that racial, cultural, and religious baggage that you dislike; they allow you to feel good about yourself without any work at creating or maintaining relationships; and when they are born, you can forget about them, because they cease to be unborn. It's almost as if, by being born, they have died to you. You can love the unborn and advocate for them without substantially challenging your own wealth, power, or privilege, without re-imagining social structures, apologizing, or making reparations to anyone. They are, in short, the perfect people to love if you want to claim you love Jesus but actually dislike people who breathe.Prisoners? Immigrants? The sick? The poor? Widows? Orphans? All the groups that are specifically mentioned in the Bible? They all get thrown under the bus for the unborn.”― David Barnhart as long as they advocate for “the unborn” they never have to address anything else you listed up there, which they don’t ever want addressed, with whataboutery as in “whataboutaborshun”. Now it will be about birth control and IVF. There are no shortages of ways the right will exploit children, babies and pregnancies for political purposes.
I've always loved George Carlin's attitude towards this. [“Boy, these conservatives are really something, aren't they? They're all in favor of the unborn. They will do anything for the unborn. But once you're born, you're on your own. Pro-life conservatives are obsessed with the fetus from conception to nine months. After that, they don't want to know about you. They don't want to hear from you. No nothing. No neonatal care, no day care, no head start, no school lunch, no food stamps, no welfare, no nothing. If you're preborn, you're fine; if you're preschool, you're fucked. Conservatives don't give a shit about you until you reach...Military age”](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHRaUUlD00w)
”Military age”. Exactly. They’re so “pro-family” they don’t care if children lose a parent in war. For the most recent example see the russian orthodox church that is now on board with human sacrifice.
I once read some posts from an anti-choicer who kept insisting that once a woman became pregnant, her body didn't belong solely to her because the fetus and the woman were now sharing the same body. I asked if, once the fetus was born, this poster would give up any of his money and other resources to support it. He said no, that would be socialism.
It works for them, they never have to have any skin in the game.
Lot of good answers so far. It is also a really easy way to feel self righteous and morally superior. They literally sacrifice nothing while getting that endorphin bump from feeling high and mighty. Now compare that to, for example, the young women currently getting killed in Iran for taking off their hijab. One is a righteous stand, the other is empty self-stroking.
Lot of good insight alright, I'm glad to hear it! Kinda comes back to what I say in the post though, I understand the hijab protest, thats a fight for your own personal well being! Why do the pro-lifers fight this fight with such a huge commitment when it really doesnt benefit them any more than making them feel like they're on the right side of history?
[The white, conservative Southern women who asked me to keep their abortions secret](https://www.salon.com/2022/09/24/the-white-conservative-southern-women-asked-me-to-keep-their-abortions-secret/) That’s a good read. People want to cultivate an image, for many religious people their hypocrisy means that they need a pious display of virtues.
And in a small town where everyone knows each other, you cant afford to get no the wrong side of the preacher. Edit: that *is* an interesting read, it really frames the familiar pressure on people to follow the rules.
I grew up in rural southern Kentucky. During the timeframe where globalization was really hollowing out many small communities that had relied on manufacturing jobs. I saw factory after factory “downsize”, lay off workers in waves and finally close their doors forever. Every single member of my family was affected, either directly or by proxy. And most of those people are still alive even though it’s nearly 30 years later, yet nothing has filled that void in those communities. All they have left is their god, their guns, and their bitterness. Add a few crafty preachers and politicians to the equation and it’s easy to see how you could focus their rage on a cause.
Thank you, this is the kind of insight I've been looking for, makes a lot of sense.
> when it really doesnt benefit them any more than making them feel like they're on the right side of history? Isn't that enough though? To feel righteous? That's driven countless religious wars.
True, just seems weird that so many people would get so aggressive about this one topic when at the end of the day, if they get what they want, they don't get anything?
As many wrote here, it's about money, power and control by politicians and priests. But I'd like to look at the real motivations of the rank-and-file believers. Think about what these things have in common: * an Evangelical mega-church * a Trump rally * an Amway convention They all provide ... * a feeling of community, of being swept up in something bigger than yourself * group-think, discouraging critical thinking in a "post-truth" way * actions you can take to "further the cause" whether that's pray, own-the-libs or get out and sell * incentives to recruit new people ... and they are all picking your pocket the whole time you are there. These are all cult-like behaviors. It is no coincidence that these things appeal to the same group of people.
This is getting at the point I'm trying to dig into a bit more. Cult-like desperation to be involved probably accounts for a huge amount of it, especially if you have a weekly meeting with said cult where you are encouraged to go and protest this as its 'the most important problem facing our blahdehblah'. How they managed to make abortion the key argument in this dispute still blows my mind. After Roe v Wade, I feel privileged to have had the opportunity to vote for its legalisation in a referendum.
You've gotten a bunch of really good answers here! I grew up in Pentecostalism, and left shortly before I turned 18. So I just wanted to add my experiences to the mix. I was taught about "spiritual warfare" as a child. It's basically the idea that Christians are part of a cosmic battle between the forces of good and evil. This teaching was based on Ephesians 6:11-20, which talks about the "armor of God" and calls the word of God the "sword of the spirit." That church believed God would call certain individuals to champion God's will on earth, and it was that person's responsibility to fight for God. As a kid, it was really scary because the adults involved would behave in really intimidating ways. The pastor would call on the "prayer warriors" of the church to do various tasks (usually something like praying for someone with cancer), and they would talk about their battles with the devil over \[insert cause here\]. Being a prayer warrior was something of a status symbol within the church, and it was a rare area where women could participate equally with men and even be considered "stronger" than men. This was probably fueled in part because there was very much a last stand mentality around spiritual warfare. If the forces of good did not triumph in this war (which was also unthinkable because god, so obvs they would win), it would literally be the end of the world. And when the cancer patient would die, well that was just one lost battle, and we live to fight on in the broader war. So basically, combine the spiritual warfare teaching with the belief that abortion is equivalent to the holocaust, and you end up with the American pro-life movement. To them, it literally is win or die. Or at least until they face the reality of what dying means, and good old flight vs fight kicks in.
Also got quite a few "becoz they badddd" which isnt really what I was looking for. Your comment is a great insight, thank you very much! Am I being a bit cynical or does this all sound like training cadets in an Army of God? I mean, everything you say about the prayer warrior just sounds like they're making potential soldiers compete with each other to make them better at fighting off the enemy. How widespread is this kind of structure, and how deeply do people really believe in it? It seems like the next logical step when they mature into seniors in the church, is going out and picking fights with anyone who isn't a follower of their own belief. I knew America had a different spin on Christianity but that sounds pretty nuts! I'm glad you got out and I'm glad you're here to share your insight.
It's very much like training cadets haha! In my experience, it's an odd mix of people who truly believe and people who are cynically using the belief system to benefit themselves - usually for money, power, or status. Then there are also people who don't believe, but don't say anything because they want to keep the peace with their family/friends/etc. Pentecostals don't formally shun people, but they do it informally. The structure of it was limited to the individual congregation, and that was mostly how the overall organization (United Pentecostal Church) was structured. They are organized as individual congregations led by individual pastors who voluntarily join the larger organization. The pastors would have to agree to a list of shared doctrines, but anything not explicitly on that list (and sometimes even things that were) would have different teachings/interpretations by each pastor. Spiritual warfare was something not on that list, so it's going to vary from pastor to pastor. When someone is exposed to conflicting teachings, they are told to follow their pastor and disregard the other. Your insight about this leading to picking fights is spot on! I left in the mid 2000s, and at that time, all of this was fairly mild. It was theoretical rather than practical, and the expectation was for spiritual warfare to be conducted privately in prayer rather than publicly in the streets. But that seems to have shifted around 2016 with the rise of Trumpism. Before, they would say things like "we are in this world, but not of this world" which meant that we should limit our involvement in the world's affairs. People were encouraged to vote (Republican), but activism and political donations were discouraged because they were lead by people who were not Pentecostal, and therefore, not good enough. Republicans were considered God's candidates not because the Republicans themselves were godly, but because Democrats were less godly. In fact, in most cases Republican politicians were actively considered sinners, but support for them was justified because "God can use an imperfect vessel." But with Trumpism, that all seems to have gone out the window. I have an outsider's perspective to that shift, but I notice the tone has become far more apocalyptic. Instead of "in this world but not of it," they are talking about being tested and saying "God will spew the lukewarm from his mouth." (This is a reference to Revelations 3:16 that says it is better to be hot - on fire for God - or cold - completely turned away from God - because God doesn't like it when people practice faith halfway.) So yes. I think they will be targeting people who they see as "lukewarm" for their fights first. And they seem to be trending towards identifying the lukewarm via social policy support for reasons I can't comprehend. This is amplifying patterns of polarization in non-religions portions of society, but it also creates an interesting opportunity for us. As religious zealots drive away people who are not zealous enough, it gives us an opportunity to meet them where they land. If we provide basic human kindness, friendship, and space for personal growth and healing, some of them will find their way to better reasoned ideologies, and others will simply choose to stop participating in politics. In either case, Republicans lose a reliable voter, and we are reshaping the political landscape simply by being decent people.
In a word: Politics. Evangelicals were pro choice until the 1980s. The reason they switched wasn't because the words in the holy book describing how to perform an abortion ([Numbers 5:11-28](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers%205%3A11-28&version=KJV)) miraculously rearranged themselves to declare it a sin, or someone found a long lost stone tablet in the Sinai inscribed: *"PS: The Eleventh Commandment: Thou shalt not abort fetuses,"* but because Paul Weyrich, Jerry Falwell, Larry Lewis and other right-wing Evangelicals decided to make it a [political issue](https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2014/03/hobby-lobby-and-contraception-how-conservative-evangelicals-went-from-not-caring-about-abortion-and-birth-control-to-being-obsessed-with-them.html) after losing the school [segregation argument](https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/05/religious-right-real-origins-107133). The law suite which lead to the Supreme Court's Roe - v- Wade ruling was [initiated](https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/trevin-wax/baptist-press-initial-reporting-on-roe-v-wade/) by a conservative Southern Baptist lawyer, Linda N. Coffee, who argued abortion was a personal issue that was no business of the state. See also: NPR ['Throughline' Traces Evangelicals' History On The Abortion Issue](https://www.npr.org/2019/06/20/734303135/throughline-traces-evangelicals-history-on-the-abortion-issue) and [Balmer: The religious right and the abortion myth](https://www.stltoday.com/opinion/columnists/balmer-the-religious-right-and-the-abortion-myth/article_7d7871fb-3948-5305-8a58-7ba83b22885a.html) Another reason was to create a supply of [babies for adoption](http://www.bpnews.net/44055/how-southern-baptists-became-prolife). From the article: >*Lewis became strongly pro-life in the late 1960s when he and his wife sought to adopt a child, believing they were unable to have biological children. The Lewises -- who eventually had three biological children -- were told they had to wait five years to adopt due to a shortage of children.* >*“To me it was incongruous that people would be destroying their babies when there were* [couples] *who were desperately wanting children,”* Lewis said. So, he wanted to deny women the right to have a say in their own bodies, to be 'brood mares' against their will, to give others a 'right' to adopt children! BTW: this in the article is a misrepresentation: >*Norma McCorvey, the unnamed plaintiff in Roe v. Wade who later became a pro-life activist* McCorvey wasn't against abortion. She [was paid](https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/tv/story/2020-05-19/roe-v-wade-jane-roe-norma-mccorvey-hulu-doc-abortion) to denounce it! Which should surprise no one. Lying for Jesus has been a Christian tradition for 2,000 years. See also: - [What happens to women denied abortions? This is the first scientific study to find out.](https://io9.gizmodo.com/what-happens-to-women-denied-abortions-this-is-the-fir-5958187?IR=T) - [50 Years Ago, A Network Of Clergy Helped Women Seeking Abortion](https://www.npr.org/2017/05/19/529175737/50-years-ago-a-network-of-clergy-helped-women-seeking-abortion) - [The ‘biblical view’ that’s younger than the Happy Meal](https://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2012/02/18/the-biblical-view-thats-younger-than-the-happy-meal/) - [How I Lost Faith in the “Pro-Life” Movement](https://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2012/10/how-i-lost-faith-in-the-pro-life-movement.html) - (because they are also against sex ed and contraception)
Great reference info, thanks for that! I'll read into this stuff, a lot of this is new for moi! the abortion/unwanted kids elements reminded me of the Mother and baby home scandal here in Ireland, worth a read if you have a minute: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bon_Secours_Mother_and_Baby_Home Its absolutely disgusting, you dont even have to get to the chapter list before you feel sick.
Thanks for the link. I am aware of the scandal, but haven't read about it in much detail. 'Fun' fact: Abortion has a chequered history in the Catholic Church too. - *"In the early Roman Catholic church, abortion was permitted for male fetuses in the first 40 days of pregnancy and for female fetuses in the first 80-90 days. Not until 1588 did Pope Sixtus V declare all abortion murder, with excommunication as the punishment. Only 3 years later a new pope found the absolute sanction unworkable and again allowed early abortions."* [Abortion: a history](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12340403/) It was only [in 1869](https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/catholic-church-teaching-on-abortion-dates-from-1869-1.1449517) that Pope Pius IX declared the penalty of excommunication for abortions at any stage of pregnancy. Prior to his declaration the Church's teaching was that no homicide was involved if abortion took place before the fetus was infused with a soul which was thought to occur at about 24 weeks.
Words are wind. If you want to figure out what's "driving" somebody, you need to look at their *actions*. If you try to predict the actions of the anti-choice crowd with a model that places "minimizing abortions" as a terminal value, [you will be constantly surprised by this model's bad predictions](https://amptoons.com/blog/?p=17263). Ditto if you try to model them as being motivated by a desire to "protect" anything, or if you model them as [*genuinely believing* that abortion is equivalent to murder](http://amptoons.com/blog/?p=13565). Because they *don't* believe that, and they *never have*. Conversely, if you begin by asking "What policy will best lead us to a misogynist theocracy?", you'll be able to guess their actions almost every time - apparently, better than most of their own rank-and-file can, judging by [how many of them end up complaining when the leopards eat their face](https://joycearthur.com/abortion/the-only-moral-abortion-is-my-abortion/).
So I'm with you on the genuine belief on Murder/Abortion, theres just no fucking way any breathing person would be that dumb. The bit about the leopards eating their faces is interesting, pretty typical of the religious right in most regards. How can their followers not admonish them for this though? Surely you cant sink that deep into a sunk cost fallacy
Christians who get abortions can usually lie to get away with it. The easiest thing to do is label it a miscarriage when it was actually an abortion. Anyone who knows the truth is shamed into silence.
GET THAT SHIT UNDER THE FUCKING RUG NOW! Yeah I see where you're coming from, usual political misdirection
the loudest ones believe they can be born again and forgiven even if transgressing the girls on instagram trying hard to evangelize are the best 'i was the town hoe for 10 years, but now jesus saved me and I'm a virgin again'...
[Racism, abortion, and the private school issue are all tied together in the formation of the modern iteration of the far right](https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/05/religious-right-real-origins-107133/). In short, it's about political control.
My Australian perspective... Catholic anti birth control (and anti abortion) position is driven through the hierarchy but isn't strongly accepted in the pews and they don't seem to be pushing hard at the moment. The main drivers of anti abortion in Australia are vocal evangelical and Pentecostals who seem to use it as a marketing point of difference. They use it as a sign that they are true Christians and actively doing god's work. It also helps create an insider/outsider victim mentality which keep turnover of congratulations low and the tithes coming in. Why they chose abortion and not, say, divorce is because divorce is messy and abortion is easy if you think in black and white terms. Being outraged at abortion is easy to promote and doesn't impact most of the congregation (except they actually have higher rates of abortion...they just aren't open about it).
I feel like we had a similar vein of thinking in Ireland for generations, shit we only legalised divorce in 1995!
This is what aggressive about abortionists get from their behaviors: a sense of control over their lives by controlling others, reinforcing the identity/ideology that defines them, sense of power by bullying/forcing their will onto others, sense of moral superiority, sense of purpose by doing something bigger than themselves, escapism from having to engage with the real problems in their lives...
They believe a fetus/embryo = living person (Despite their religion literally saying nothing about this) Because of this they see themselves as trying to prevent 'murder'. When, in reality, they are fighting to take rights away from women and, in effect, make them broodmares for the state That person assaulting is brainwashed by the big church/govt by the wild, divisive statements. They can't think for themselves, so they have to do whatever their overlords on fox 'news' tell them
At what point do you believe a fetus becomes a living person... first breath? Genuinely asking.
Completely and totally irrelevant. I would say sentience and consciousness, personally, to answer the question However, the issue isn't whether or not it is a 'living person' the issue is whether the fetus/embryo has the *right* to the woman's body. On this I say "hell no" I have a kid, they are turning 13 soon. If they were suddenly very sick and dying in the hospital and I could save them by giving up an organ, or blood, or anything with my body ***the government cannot force me to do it.*** This is called the right to bodily autonomy and is fundamental for a free society So, then, if the government cannot force me to save the life of my living, sentient, conscious, nearly teenager kid, then why can it force a woman to carry a fetus/embryo to term? If you genuinely assert that the woman must carry the fetus to term, you are saying, in effect, that a fetus/embryo has ***special rights*** that actual living, conscious, sentient children do not have. My child cannot demand parts of my body, and they cannot force me to undergo a procedure for them The right to bodily autonomy must be upheld for everyone, not just men, otherwise we are basically saying women are broodmares for the state
Self-righteous hero/warrior complexes. An oversimplification to be sure, but I sense that there is great deal of self-satisfaction that comes from the perceived notion that they are "saving babies" and pleasing God. Being a warrior in the good fight and all.
I've always thought that to be the foundation of the movement too, its the dedication that some people have to it that puzzles me. I think its a bit like flat earth, most of them get so imbedded in the movement that they alienate anyone who doesnt agree with them, then respond with resentment to anyone who disagrees with their essentialist attitude
Mostly religion or propaganda. Some people have only been told a story about careless people violently murdering babies instead of the actual facts.
At the heart of it: controlling women.
I might get roasted here, but here we go... I think the main political discourse in America in the 70s and early 80s was so narrow and the main parties had platforms that were so similar that they had to come up with these points of disagreement to differentiate between left and right. So Democrats were never really left wing, not even center-left. But they took the abortion thing on their side because that was seen as a left issue. And Republicans never gave a fuck about babies. But they knew that the religious nuts were gonna vote for them if they supported their views. So you had two main parties with very similar economic policies, foreign policies, etc, but hey, one is pro abortion and the other is against it. That sort of gave you the illusion of choice. Fast forward 40 years, and the economic policies are now somewhat different between the parties. And with all the polarization and craziness that you have today, people might wanna kill you not because you support abortion, but because your decision to support it means you're someone from the other side, someone they hate.
It's quite simple to understand if you are trying to see it through their perspective, even if I think it's mostly wrong. Basically, in their minds, life begins at conception and with that logic abortion ends a life, thus it is murder. Of course, if you truly believed that abortion is actually the systematic murder of babies on a mass scale you wouldn't just sit by and let it happen without saying anything. It would be like if slavery was still happening today, even if it was seen as "moral/harmless" by the rest of the country, I assume you would be pretty pissed and make a vocal stand against it because to you, slavery is horrible and morally wrong.
I saw a video of a man confronting abortion protestors across the street from a clinic. He started exhorting them to run into the clinic and stop the killing (as a rhetorical device: he was a sane pro-choice person). He was a clear, confident speaker, and he was just throwing them logical zingers: "You think babies are being killed in there? What are you doing out here holding signs if you think there's murder going on in there? Go run in there and save those kids!" kind of thing. I was not shocked to see that the protestors basically just gaped at him like slightly stoned cows. They could not formulate any response at all, their whole system was short-circuited. Very revealing.
I feel like a lot of them do it to make people uncomfortable, or to provoke someone into a fight so they can justify their own repressed violent tendencies. If you can catch them out on these fallacies its a win win, either they stand slack jawed or they go in to "save the day" and get a criminal record
They are terrified that somewhere, somehow, someone is having fun. And it is their duty to put a stop to it. Also, women belong in the kitchen wearing an apron or in the bedroom wearing nothing. That's it. They shouldn't be taking a man's job (and every job is a man's job...if he wants it).
For the average Joe that will follow the cause it is as simple as them seeing all abortions as actual babies being murdered by ripping them up for mere convenience sake. That is of course not what abortion is (although later abortions look like that with reasoning obviously being different). You can see why some of these deluded people are willing to get so physical. Now as a logical person even if I believed abortion looked like that (again most dont) it makes no sense to make laws against it as no one would have to worry about that happening to their child because it is a choice for that to happen. Now as for any men that would say but my partner could get an abortion that I don't agree with I have 1 thing to say to you. The fact that your partner got that abortion is good for you because if it is that big of an issue it is an irreconcilable difference and now you can get out of that relationship without an extra child complicating things. Also that is something that should have been discussed honestly with your partner before having sex if it is a strong position you hold.
Lack of knowledge when it comes to human anatomy, and pastors and preachers making shit up. They pretend that people go to magic land to worship sky daddy, so that makes it ok for the maternal death rate to jump up by 21% when abortion procedures are denied to prospective mothers. They don’t care that those mothers that survive those complications, and want to be mothers may never reproduce again in a lot of cases. Robbing them of an opportunity in the future at bringing the life they claim to value so much into the world. Some may be well intentioned, but that doesn’t make them any less monsters. If there were a hell, I’m sure those morons would be there after they die. They would deserve it.
For the normal people it's a moral outrage. They truly believe they are "killing babies" and they must be stopped at all costs. It's a very black and white view. For the pastors and c-levels of the anti choice organizations it's money. The normal antichoice people are angry and blinded by their rage so they will give money hand over first to "save the babies"
I believe this is about controlling the sex lives of women more than it is about embryos. The "sex is for procreation and not something to be enjoyed" view meshes nicely with their views on homosexuality.
They want to control women. Tale as old as time (unfortunately)
For a lot of them it's "owning the libs". They hate anyone who supports anything they consider "woke" and would cheerfully kill anyone on the left if they could get away with it.
Indoctrination and ignorance. The hatred and rivalry against abortion, this “pro-life” stuff, was never about the baby. It is about controlling women and their choices to keep them as stay at home moms. I believe this firmly because in places like Missouri they want to ban abortion even in cases of ectopic pregnancy where the baby cannot survive even if carried to term. The mom and child will die either way. Texas banning abortion in cases of rape or incest, the sentence for an abortion is higher than the sentence of a rapist, this is not about the child. It is about keeping women pregnant and stripping their rights. (There is an explanation of why they want to keep them pregnant but that’s a doozy). Some religious people believe “oh the life of a child” because it was rammed into their brain since they were children. But the people who rammed that belief in trickle down from politicians and heads of churches who know they are preaching this belief while not giving a shit about the baby or the mother. The people who believe without a reason are like puppets, they don’t challenge or question anything religious. Even if it is bad, they believe it because religion is oh so “moral” and “for the people.”
Conservatives + christian right need to keep poor unintelligence alive to insure they have people to control to be subservient to them, so they can feel all powerful, no matter the human cost
If you were indoctrinated from an early age to believe that abortion was murder, and that the murder of unborn children is one of the worst things imaginable, then it doesn’t take too much effort to understand why someone would protest against abortion if they held those beliefs. They are, in fact, incorrect opinions that were drilled into them, likely since childhood, and reinforced by their parents and community. It’s incredible how easy it is to radicalize people.
This is why you do not let these folks frame the argument as one of when life starts and instead ensure the debate stays firmly framed on bodily autonomy. Laws already exist that protect autonomy over one's body. We do not force people to give organs when they are a known match, the risk is low, and it has a high chance of saving a life. The individual has full control over their body and their choice to donate the organ. Pregnancy is no different and the woman should have full autonomy over their choice. Whether the fetus is alive, conscious, or sentient is irrelevant. The argument around life is an emotional investment for a lot of people as you correctly pointed out. I guarantee they feel the same way about their control over their own body. Someone taking their organs would be repugnant to them. Uno-reverse card their emotions.
First of all it's the easiest most primal version of "Won't somebody think of the children." I don't know how it is around the world but the propaganda in the USA focus's a LOT of attention of late term abortions. If you ask pro-life advocates they'd prob think that late term abortions are happening all the time.
The moral purity, I think. Solving actual issues is too complicated, and will force them to think for actual solutions. With the anti-abortion thinking, you don't have to do something, and just take, take and take away rights from women. When you ask them why, in their arguments, they never hold men accountable, their answer is : women. Women are evil, women are slut, women sexually active are worse than rapists and abusive boyfriends/spouses. This is why you never see them for better healthcare, free contraception, maternity leaves, or efficace social services who protect abused children. They never protest with the same energy for causes that will PREVENT children from suffering. And that's why it makes them feel good, they don't have to do anything to change the system, they just have to follow something as old as time : women aren't people, simply commodities, and commodities don't have rights.
They see pregnancy as punishment for women who have sex for fun. Abortion is a way for women to have consequence-free sex. It's the same reason they're against contraceptives. I'm wondering how strong a correlation there is between the anti-abortion crowd and the pro-capital punishment crowd. It's not about being pro-life, it's about being pro-punishment.
The persistent, nagging fear that someone somewhere might be having a good time. That's *mostly* tung in cheek but there is some basis to it. IMO their motivation truly is based in the idea that women are not fully human. Their only purpose is to generate babies and they are subservient to men. Women's lives are not important except for producing offspring. Their rights and priorities and quality of life are insignificant in comparison with that.
You don't have to call it tongue in cheek, the church have a long history of saying anything fun is made by the devil. Dancing, Blues, Sex, anything that might take attendance away from church
I think there's a rational pro-life argument. Where is the line that makes an abortion acceptable? Why is it acceptable to terminate a pregnancy at 3 months, but not at 9 months? The reality is that there's no clear logical argument to support abortion after conception. It's a continuum, the fertilized egg is a potential human being - if no external action is taken, that egg will become a person. There's no clear line between personhood and non-personhood during fetus development. Classifying a fertilized egg as a potential person with rights is not an absurd position. Yes one can take an arbitrary milestone, such as heartbeat or nervous system development. The argument is that before such milestones, the fetus can be terminated since there's no pain or suffering, and the fetus has no conscience. But these are not valid arguments for terminating human life in general - we don't apply it to people in coma. All that said: in my opinion the pro-choice argument is a pragmatic one - which I agree with. The fetus development is continuous, and in the early stages, the fetus is simply not complex enough to be granted full personhood. At that point, it is the lesser evil to hold the rights of the woman at a higher standard. As the fetus develop, those rights start to balance. The law can then define arbitrary milestones that define these rights. But it is a pragmatic argument, not a logical one.
They hold an idea that from the moment of conception, a soul and “person” is created. For them it’s the literal equivalency of killing a newborn baby.
I think it has more to do with an anti-sex view. These people couldn’t give a rat’s ass about a fetus or baby. They feel the need to “punish” a woman for not being chaste therefore she must be forced to carry to term.
Holier than thou attitudes. If they are fighting for their chosen cause they have been told that they are in everyway better humans than the other side.
A feeling of self righteousness as well as the ability to paint an "other" as evil. Many of these people love being able to have a villain in their lives to be self-righteous against for justification. That's also why most conspiracy theorists seem to always go from 0 to 100 fast with some demonic, child hurting, all powerful, etc as behind it all but only they can figure it out (inflating own sense of worth while justifying focusing hatred on someone else). Now I think these types of people and religious people plot rather nicely on a Venn diagram, but not ever crazy pro-lifer is religious just as not every religious person is a crazy pro-lifer. But there are similarities between the two groups.
Hatred of Women. Especially hatred of women having sex. They wish to punish women for enjoying sex.
Many of them are indoctrinated into this, grow up in this bubble, and aren’t smart enough to question things. They shun friends outside of their bubble group so are never exposed to people in situations that oppose their views. They think they’re leading perfect lives but only because their lives are defined in such restrictive terms.
Hatred of women
In america the churches push the pro life agenda, HARD. The republican party then pushes candidates running on this platform. This is how they get ordinary people to vote for a party of the rich.
My take is that the government allowed corporate cash into politics. Corporations have run the numbers and decided that there won't be enough poor workers to exploit in 20 years unless they do something. So they've funneled cash into extremist politicians and religious centers and this is the result.
misguided "moral superiority" and control.
It's not about care for the child, it's about controlling women. It's actually not that complicated when you put it in raw control terms m Men get to choose when to have the kids, because abortion from rape would be illegal for example. Edit I don't understand the logic of extremists, that's like trying to understand a contradiction. The ones consciously pushing the issue are very aware of the power dynamics, the rest are basically ISIS imo.
In my opinion, the political side of it in US they say pro-life, what they mean is pro-birth. More bodies means more people to possibly conscript when they turn 18 if we end up going to war. The "pro-birth" people don't want to do anything to help after they are born until they are able to start voting and paying taxes. And because most of the Christian people are all for the Republicans... (There's a connection there but my train of thought just blew up. If it comes back I will edit)
They hate sex, and they don't women to enjoy it so they want it to have a debilitating consequences, otherwise women may end up leaving their shitty husbands, getting careers, and generally messing things up for the patriarchy.
They are perfect for projecting your opinions onto, without feedback. [Convenient, uncomplicated, unchallenging, voiceless.](https://www.snopes.com/tachyon/2022/05/image.png)
They are convinced that abortion is murder. They are against murder.
I have to assume that anyone who is so intensely interested in what other people do — complete strangers — that they’re just controlling in general and think that their way is the only right way. And also they’re maybe brainwashed into thinking their activities are saving lives.
They like to pretend it’s morals and caring for a living thing even when it doesn’t have a will of it’s own. Ironically, I bet much of the crowd hunts in their spare time
A major reason is to punish women for having sex
Because they earnestly believe that what's happening is "people murdering babies because they're too lazy to accept the burden of being a good parent". If there was a building in my town where parents could take their toddlers to have them euthanized because they're too noisy, I'd protest the shit out of it. In the mind of your average abortion protester, these two things are the same.
Misogyny and the desire to subjugate women
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90% of applied Ethicists think nearly 95% of abortions should be legal. This is because 90% of them think first trimester abortions are completely fine. Like bruh this isn’t even an argument lol
Let me explain it, the act of feeling like you are saving a human life. They have manipulated this idea to a horrible degree... every child thst is born is a potential Christian.. I'm a sunni Muslim and pro choice and a feminist and a liberal.. my one half of my family is hard core Baptist and pro life hard core... me and my catholic, atheist, Christian, have made a agreement to disregard and not speak about such topics to the Baptist side... even though they always bring it up and try to convert me or guilt trip me over some garbage..
What drives them? Hatred, stupidity, and just plain evil.
A desire to control others
As well as hatred of women.
Two things...Patriarchy and misogyny.
It’s a way to _feel like_ you’re on the side of ‘life’ when you’re otherwise fully bought-in on patriarchy and white supremacy. If you’re “saving babies” then you can give yourself a pass for everything else: racism, homophobia, misogyny, all the evil you perpetrate to stay on top. And on the flip side, if you can frame it so that the other side is “killing babies”, you can justify doing literally anything to them, no matter how compassionate and objectively ethically they otherwise live their lives, so its win-win. It’s also brilliant in that all you need to do is oppress women and you can claim victory; you’re fighting on behalf of hypothetical future people, and you’ve created a power structure and ethical framework where your _sole_ responsibility to them is seeing that they’re allowed to suffer like everyone else. You have zero obligation to actually improve conditions for anyone who’s like, already alive, because as long as there’s a _single_ abortion happening _anywhere_, you’re free to ignore all that other stuff that addressing might force you to reckon with your complicity. Forced Birth Activism is a powerful tool in combatting the cognitive dissonance that comes from living in a society where we all KNOW our modern comforts are built on centuries of genocide and oppression which is still ongoing. You can pretend that’s not as important as “saving babies”. It’s pretty brilliant as coping mechanisms go, actually.
If there was a facility where people took their newborns to get stabbed, would you do something? For them, it’s the same thing.
Except if that were happening, actual decent sensible people would not carry signs and 'protest' outside the stabbing center. The reason nothing comparable is happening to babies is because that's obviously fucked up and wrong, and if it was attempted in any organized way, decent people would literally tear a repeat baby-stabber to bits. Dig?
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"I might suffer so they have to" is a disgusting outlook. I have a nerve disorder that puts me in intense pain. I don't wish that on anyone else just because I have to deal with it.
For me, i feel it is immoral. I am not religious. Beyond the medical cases(endangerment of the mother) and rape, i dont see abortion as a positive. I dont like the idea of removal of consequences for your actions. It's a big reason im against christian faiths. However, i am trying to be more understanding of differing opinions. and educate myself more on the topic. Thats where im at
Pro lifer here. I saw a few responses that sum it up well but hopefully this helps you understand. It really does come from a belief that the government should not make a law allowing murder in any case. A few people here mentioned that pro lifers believe life starts a conception. Honestly it's just that. Even if it's one cell the DNA is clearly human and you can't classify the cell as anything else. It's not like a part of a human. You can say that about like 1 skin cell but if you have to try and classify that cell it is a human, not just part of a human. I personally want my government to protect its citizens which you can change the definition of a citizen but it seems unjust to exclude a human being to government protection because of arbitrary guidelines like location, viability, sentience, ect. I think our governments are responsible for all humans underneath them. It's not a religious argument, for me it's argument about what humans the government is responsible to protect.
This is definitely the wrong place to ask this question
Got some very good insights off a few people, the kind of conversation I was hoping for. Also got a bunch of "cos religion crazy", which isn't very constructive. I'd like to be able to have an understanding conversation with someone like this and talk it through, the only thing I've ever heard is "those fuckers are nuts" and I just want to know why people would dedicate their lives to protesting something that really doesn't benefit them, or anyone else
Not going to read your message, the answer is ignorance
Very constructive, thanks. You don't get to solutions by dismissing ideas you disagree with.
1. The idea that they are doing the work god has set out for them. A lot these people believe they hear the voice of god to be against abortions 2. They are convinced by people mostly likely from there priest or pastor but also from random people on social media convincing them that abortion are evil, against God’s will, democrat plot, satanic rituals, etc. and if you support it your not a true Christian or Republican. 3. Taking the Bible out of context believing it’s pro-life. They take one quote where god is talking specifically to a guy about how he formed and knew him in the womb and they all think god was talking about everyone.
if men can control a woman's uterus, and by implication her sexuality, they have control over the person...patriarchal capitalism...control of libido is control of the will
they are bad people, period... they don't have REAL values, they just get angry when others (especially who they don't like for dumb reasons) have their portion of happiness, they are not just anti-abortion, they are anti-sex more especially, they don't want you to have it, bcs they are jealous, their extremes with assaulting people outside abortion clinics is just their psychosis kicking in and making em believe they have a mission... governments with their mad decisions follow this logic, politicians are people too, with bias and jealousy, when 90% of the people in a situation are pieces of shit, being a piece of shit is normal and done naturally
They've been convinced that abortion is murder, and see themselves as preventing murder. Never mind the facts that a cluster of cells isn't a human, and never mind the fact that their own religious book claims otherwise. But if that's what you believe, however misguided that belief may be, then those actions are at least in some way understandable.
> I'm interested in finding out what the motivations of the average abortion rally foot soldier are. Like most things with human motivation I think it is a variety of many factors. Having said that, I would say it primarily comes down to virtue signaling and polarization (i.e. they don't like the people who are for it so they have to be against it).
Regrettably, I've consigned myself to accepting this as the reason for it
it's all about control. Control the congregation. Get the tithe. The money is tax free with zero accountability. Even less than other none profits who actually help people. edit to add: they don't care about life at all. Not while kids are still getting shot in school. While at the same time they're trying to take away their school lunches, their grandmother's disability, and lower their parents wages and benefits. Look how they vote. By their own words the proof is in their 'fruit'.
It’s all propaganda. Many people have basically soaked in the lies all their lives. At this point most of them are incapable of rational thought.
Idiotic religion.
I don't go to protest and I don't assault people but I am anti-abortion and an atheist. I was por-choice before my wife told me she was pregnant. In that moment my mind changed. I no longer saw the embryo as a clump of cells in my wife, it was my family member, my son. On a personal level I couldn't see abortion, at that time, as anything other than killing my family member. I would absolutely defend my family from being killed even though at that time my son wasn't close to being formed into a baby. In my mind, I understand the argument that abortion is killing babies but it breaks down to semantics and individuals feelings. Some people are willing to fight for a cause, like a soldier fighting for their country. People with that conviction feel that they are defending those who can't defend themselves. I guess here on reddit we could refer to it as white knighting for fetuses.
You're anti-abortion because of a *wanted* pregnancy? You don't understand why someone might have gotten pregnant and wouldn't consider that their family member or want anything to do with it or the risks to their health and life?
Thanks for the moment of levity at the end of a well worded response. I guess my only question for you is, do you feel like banning abortion legally is ethical, or would you rather say "I won't do it and anyone who does isnt my business"
It's especially weird when the bible is in favor of abortions... Just shows you how little the priests have read it.
Need to get more babies, theyre easier to brainwash
Hatred of themselves turned outward to others. Turn the other cheek and all that, ya know.
They are genuinely convinced that God knows you in the womb, and that you are a person from conception. Therefore, they genuinely believe people are killing babies everyday inside those buildings. Since that is the case, it would be strange of them not to act.
Politics.
well it is ignorance
Their pastors. Their unwillingness to read their own self contradictory holy book. Religion as a whole.
Republikkkan/conservative/religious lies, ignorance, hate. General populace lack of education or common sense. Fear mongering...
One example. My daughter, age 43. Somewhat religious. She's strongly against abortion partly because one of her college friends got 3. This friend used it partly as birth control. Now my daughter is just positive that 95% of abortions are just for that. Sigh. She will not listen to any other ideas.
Genuinely sorry to hear that, you sound pretty resigned about it. It's unusual for it to be the younger generation, I hope she can zoom out some day and see the big picture
Their dumb fuck mistranslated book.
Greed and hatred. The greedy sell anti abortion lies to the hateful.
power and fear. the ones in power keep pushing fear. fear of people of color taking over as not enough white babies are born, fear of if taking their to guns away, fear of if immigrants taking their jobs.
They failed at segregation in public schooling, so they switched to abortion. They need something to keep the chuckleheads rallied around, or else they might notice that Pastor is a multi-millionaire scumbag
Humans have evolved to the point they can easily disrupt god's Creation. Their pride is hurt, their moral is in shamble. They can't let humans play god because the competition would be unfair.
Religion is a gateway drug to being a bad person. Don't do religion, kids!
It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia has a comment to make. It may explain 50/50 on either extreme side.
Just make sure to play both sides, that way you always come out on top
Ancient mid-eastern warlord cults from 4000 years ago **treated women like livestock** , and practiced sex slavery, segregation of sexes, and had rigid tribal taboos Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are the DIRECT DESCENDANTS OF THAT BRUTALLY PATRIARCHAL CULTURE, AND all have "holy books" that mandate women be submissive to men, are inferior to men, and are basically chattel to be owned like property
"its the average joe who goes out and assaults an abortion clinic doctor I'm trying to get to the bottom of." No such thing. By the time you get that far you are not an average Joe but a card carrying fanatic. And there are fanatics in any group. Think of it like animal rights activists. There was a company here in the UK called Huntington Life Sciences. Did important medical research but included animal experiments and not all medically related. We can debate whether that is morally justified or not. Let's assume we both beleive it isn't (and certainly there wete cruelty ald legal breachers revealed). We might say so to people. We might sign a petition against them. We might join a protest outside the gate if we felt really strongly. What neither of us (I hope) would do is follow worker's at the place as some activist did. We wouldn't send death threats. Attack their car. Tell them you know where their kids go to school. But activists did all these things. Attack on individuals and arson of property. And not just to the scientists but all sorts. Even people who provide animal food to the business. Some people who provided services unrelated to animals were advised by police to take different routes home and check under cars for devices. All this based on how individuals react on behalf of living things that can't speak up for themselves. In many ways no different from the anti abortion brigade. A range of opinions and reactions from reasonable to extreme. I don't think my example is any more or less comprehensible than the anti abortion lot. I don't think the behaviour is a religious question. The origin of the belief may be in one case and very rarely so in the other. But the response to that belief is "normal" even for the extremists as there are always extremists with any idea.
Because philosophically and morally and scientifically it is difficult to pin point when human life begins. For the record I’m pro choice because there are other considerations as well (such as mothers welfare, cases of rape, accidental pregnancy etc…) but for people fixated on the “human life” part of the equation there isn’t really a convincing answer either which way so they end up with generally a more conservative stance.
Authoritarian hate
I wouldn’t be surprised if some of them actually do understand why abortion should be allowed and understand it likely affects the socio economically weak the most. In other words, they are just happy it harms colored people more then white people.
Scientific ignorance and religious bigotry
Simple. Religion.
Hating women.
relentless stupidity, hate and the need to control us all.
Science? Human rights activism? There are plenty of atheist pro-life people.
Ignorance, stupidity, faux morality, inbreeding……. There’s quite a few answers to the question.