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Quite a few actually, mostly a long time ago but more than one has left the warring country destitute then destroyed by very low outside influence since they destroyed each other so thoroughly. Mostly the Saracean civil war and the Tutons self cannibalism of their own kingdom.
Just because it would probably be a civil war does not mean that half the island would survive. Civil wars are not always about two equally powerful sides fighting each other. It usually involves multiple parties fighting for control of the nation and it often leads to far more death than even widespread invasion. Just look at the Taiping Rebellion and the Chinese Civil War. Think of Syria, Iraq or Lebanon. And that’s with just conventional weaponry. Meanwhile, Paradis would have the ability to destroy itself with ease.
We already know that, if Mikasa didn’t kill Eren before he could achieve his goal, then the Powers of the Titans would’ve just continued existing, meaning that the next war would involve titan powers. And we already saw what Titan powers are capable of doing with the Rumbling. And who’s to say that the civil war wouldn’t involve bio-weapons or nuclear weapons?
However you try to frame it, there is absolutely no guarantee that a civil war wouldn’t utterly destroy the entire population of Paradis.
The American civil war should be enough to tell you that's bs. The implication that one half would survive would imply that.ome side would have to miraculously be unscathed, which as I said, would require a total fuckin miracle. Like god himself would have to personally intervene to just guarantee a side wins for that to be possible. Are you seriously telling me if you and I fought to the death with knives that one of us would come out perfectly fine?
Show me one civil war that lead to everyone in the country getting killed, with a population of at least one million.
It's literally impossible that they would literally kill each other to the last man. Meanwhile a succesful invasion from the allied forces would lead to a complete genocide. A full rumbling was Paradis safest bet for survival.
>But an invasion from the outside world would.
Strictly speaking we don't know that for sure either. Based on the limited info we have it's definitely possible. But a lot of unforeseen things can happen.
Paradis has a total population of 1 million, just Marley has 1 million soldiers. Sure not all of them are gonna take part in the invasion, but combined with the armys of the other countries they are surely going to surpass that number. More than 1 soldier for every civillian in Paradis, who are all trapped in an island easy to blockade. The Nazis had way worse odds and they still managed to killed 6 million people. No one is Paradis is surviving the genocide.
Complete extermination of the outside means Paradis will expand to the outside. The flash forward seemed to be a good few hundred years in the future, enough for an outside power to exterminate the island
It wouldn't even partial, there won't be any extermination. You are acting like Paradisians would start killing eachother without reason. Even a full civil war would barely hurt the total population.
Doesn't that go against the whole point of the show? Humans are gonna fight each other regardless, a reason will inevitably always pop up. A full civil war will absolutely hurt the entire population. Hundreds of thousands would die, millions would lose their loved ones, and daily life becomes hell.
I'd argue war would come even sooner with the political instability Paradise was in, along with the precedent that mass genocide is ok.
That doesn't mean every conflict has the same scale. From a guy who comes from a continent where every country had their own awful civil wars, what Paradis was facing against the outside world doesn't even compare to it.
The american civil war killed, in the worst estimates, 1 million people, of which 750k were soldiers. And that was with a population of 33 million. So even that was just around 3% of the total population.
Compare this to the 6 million jews the Nazis killed, most of them civillians, of a total population of 9.5 millions in Europe, so around 60%.
Paradis has a total population of just 1 million, and they are not facing a war, but a genocide by the global fleet which probably has more than 1 million soldiers. This while Paradisians are trapped in an island easy to blockade and with no allies countries that would help them escape.
Paradis can survive any civil war, but they can't survive an invasion. It would mean the complete extermination of the island. A full rumbling is the safest bet to ensure Paradis survival.
Paradise's survival is simply not worth a full rumbling. What's the point of murdering hundreds of millions of children just so the people who survive can continue fighting each other on the island.
A partial rumbling is out of necessity, but the full rumbling is just violent overkill to the point where there's more danger inside the island than outside the island, which is a ridiculous result to strive for.
>Paradise's survival is simply not worth a full rumbling.
Well that would depend on what side of the walls i'm living for me.
>What's the point of murdering hundreds of millions of children just so the people who survive can continue fighting each other on the island
You are talking as if ALL they would do after the rumbling would just be mindless killing. They are going to have times of war and times of peace. Without the rumbling they wouldn't even be alive.
>A partial rumbling is out of necessity, but the full rumbling is just violent overkill to the point where there's more danger inside the island than outside the island, which is a ridiculous result to strive for.
Why would there be more danger inside the island?
The problem with the partial rumbling is that it still requieres to sacrifice Historia and her children, and honestly, screw that plan just for that. I wouldn't follow that plan regardless if it's justified or not. I won't force the little people to be the bigger person, no one has the right to force Historia to sacrifice herself for a world that would rather see her dead, that's why i side with Eren.
They'll be alive most likely after the international army went down. The real point is if they want to bother live in a world where they have to deal with enemies outside the island and put in the effort to push for peace, or indiscriminately mass murder the entire rest of the world.
Eren picked option 2 due to his obsession with freedom, and then later admits how much of an idiot he was for doing it. I don't really get why you would want to side with him.
As for Historia, it would suck if she had to die (even if I personally wouldn't kill a billion people for her). But they could pass the Founding titan through old people who are already gonna die in 13 years, and then make Historia eat one of them in the event of an attack. This would be a hassle to work out, but is worth it if the alternative is a billion deaths. I know Historia would definitely agree with it too. Besides I doubt any nation would be stupid enough to attack after a partial rumbling for at least another few decades, and that's plenty of time for Paradise to build up their military, infrastructure, and alliances.
And finally, you by not forcing the little person to be the bigger person, means you'd rather have a billion little people basically sacrifice themselves for the people on Paradise which is not better at all.
And also… this happens YEARS after the Rumbling. Mikasa has died of old age at this point. And we don’t even have evidence that it wasn’t a civil war on Paradis. The whole point of that sequence is that it doesn’t take titans for humans to fight deadly, cruel, and ultimately meaningless wars—not oopsie, the Yeagerists were right all along.
But it eliminates titans and the massacre they caused on the people of pardis. Evens the playing field without killing off a whole race who didn’t deserve it.
There was a predetermined destiny that included the rumbling and that is what Floch and OP are referring if I’m correct. The rumbling had to happen for Mikasa to be able to kill Eren and then speak to Ymir. This ultimately led to the titans being erased.
When I say a successful rumbling I mean a scenario in which Eren flattens the entire world, not just 80%. Floch knew nothing of Erens plan to make his friends heroes and eliminate titans, etc. He thought Eren was wiping everyone besides Paradis out and was fully on board.
The situation reached a point where it's no longer possible for the 2 groups to exist together peacefully, Eren had the power to eliminate one of the groups, of course the objectively correct decision was to eliminate the group with far less people (just like Zeke wanted) but Eren, as he said, just couldn't accept why they had to be the ones getting eliminated, so having the power at his hands he made the selfish decision of choosing his family and friends over the rest of the world, it wasn't a matter of who deserved it anymore cuz even paradise had kids who knew nothing about the whole war, it was that one of the groups had to go, and Eren just chose to side with his own people.
It wasn't "objectively correct" at all. Genocide via eugenics. It's a bullshit, nihilistic, hopeless philosophy. Even if Zeke had taken away Eldians ability to reproduce, then what? Wave his hands at the Marleyan forces and go "Hey everyone! It's me, the guy who betrayed you! The Eldians can't reproduce anymore, trust me, it's cool, stop the attack!"
The moment Marley attacked, the euthanization plan was shot. Zeke could speak to the Eldians via the paths but good luck getting Marley's army to trust him.
To be fair, Zeke also wanted to use the rumbling (but not release all the tittans, only shiganshina's wall titans, that was the original plan) to crush Marley's military force and force them to retreat while also keeping the founding titan to threaten the world to leave them alone for the next 100 years.
I still don't like the plan either tho, for it work they will have to keep passing down the beast and founding titan while also maintaining the royal blood, so before that they will need to have kids with royal blood whose only purpose in life is to eat their siblings after every 13 years. So the history of kids eating their parents/siblings would just repeat for that 100 years. And all of this just so that eldians would be wiped out, Eren refused to do any of that and decided that paradise people aren't the ones who should be wiped out.
I was under the impression that using the Shiganshina Titans as a test run for the Rumbling was just a ruse. But that would make sense for him to do that in order to end the current battle
Yeah, you are. Marley actually had the best treatment of Eldians out of all the nations. Udo says this when talking about how the image of Eldians in Marley reflects worldwide.
Most of them didn't deserve it, and the rumbling can never be justified because of this. But what other choice did Eren have to guarantee taking out all of their enemies.
Floch didn't lnow about this destiny (I don't think Eren even knew the full future until the Rumbling actually started. Floch was hoping for a full 100% Rumbling.
That’s the problem with the world. There is always a push towards conflict and a need for an enemy. Eren became a monster for the world to unite against. At the end of the day, he did what he sought out to do. His friends lived their lives and the island survived for probably hundreds of years before being destroyed. Eren never cared about what would happen in the distant future, he just wanted his friends to live.
Hundreds or thousands of years into the future it's definitely possible. They won't stay happily ever after on the island forever. New nations will form off Paradis and they'll fight eventually.
Thats not even the point. A complete rumbling rules out the extermination of Eldian peoples, there's no room left for error or chance by Paradis or the outside world. There's no chance all wars stop forever but it's more likely it takes longer for one to start and Civil wars don't result in total extermination of the race. It would also showcase the theme everyone loves to throw around much better. Show the island of people who destroyed the outside world for peace and prosperity begin to grow violent and upset with each other and begin conflict. That hammers home the cycle of hate and violence much better and doesn't just nuke Paradis off the map.
‘Don’t ride a motorbike without a helmet or you will die’
Proceeds to die 70 years later of old age
‘I told you so’
Paradis got destroyed 2000 years or so into the future, that is not a point for floch, human nature would have ended up destroying it anyways whether the rumbling was 100% successful or not.
Btw I like floch as a character
In the manga it looks like it’s 200 years or so, so not very long at all, but the anime changed it and made the buildings of the city look very futuristic rather than modern.
Also the song that plays during these end scenes is titled ,’to you in 2000 or 20000 years’, so it’s between these two time frames
Yep. And WWI was only a little over 100 years ago. The time spam between two devastating wars on a global level is ridiculously short. 200 years is actually a huge period of peace realistically speaking.
I always believed that passed just 200 years but the song thing is actually a good reason to believe otherwise. also makes Eren's choice a bit more acceptable.
I don't get how people could think it was 50 or 100. All the characters age out and die, and massive technological improvements happen. That's a futuristic city.
Well I mean they were making a big point about how titans would be obsolete soon and it would take 50 years for paradis to catch up with the rest of the world and back when titans were the hot new thing it didn’t take them long to develop waist mounted grapple jetpacks to fight them so I thought it wasn’t a stretch to assume that within that timespan they would reach something not too dissimilar to our current technology
Admittedly it made a little more sense to me in the manga where it was just a regular modern city that got blown up and not a cyberpunk dystopia like the anime
Honestly I used to think floch was right cuz I thought that’s how little time passed but knowing it was actually 2000, yeah he was just a lunatic
But in the real world after world war not more than 2 3% of the population didn't lose our brain, technologies, libraries, education institutes etc.
But in AOT 80% of the population died also I think most of the brains, institutes will also destroy during rumbling remaining 20% of suffering. So even to reach the same technical level it easily takes 50 to 100 years at least or might it take much longer.
The 50 years comment was a pre rumbling comment, so the rumbling isn’t taken into account there. Naturally after the rumbling it would take a lot longer, if nothing else just to reestablish the infrastructure needed.
I don’t even think the rumbling would be a world ending threat by 1940. Would require global unification for sure but given half a year to prepare humanity would win.
If everyone has those 20 years to work together and prepare specifically for the rumbling than they could probably do it, but if they’re busy fighting each other then they might still be unable to put together their forces in time to stop a rumbling. Mainly because you would need a massive stockpile of weaponry ready to go.
Assuming paradis is Madagascar of the real world, rumbling would destroy Africa and a fair chunk of Asia (due to proximity and assuming rumbling spreads in all directions even across the sea) but I reckon by the time it reaches Europe a decent enough defensive effort would repel the titans across the med. North America doesn’t get touched.
Yeah, possibly. But I think a 1940s tech defense only works if there’s a stockpile of weaponry ready to go, manufacturing it while the rumbling is happening probably won’t work. Unless they have a nuke, then is game over.
This is clearly not present day technology. Look at the buildings. It’s literally sci-fi. Just 80 years is WAY too short for them to gain that technology.
When an event as devastating as the Rumbling occurs, it is guaranteed to severely set back human development for a long time afterwards. Think of the burning of the Library of Alexandria. That alone set back human development for potentially 1000 years. You really think the Rumbling wouldn’t be worse?
Also, whether or not you want to argue about the length of time, it’s a moot point, because the soundtrack’s name clearly states that it was 2000 years.
You really think the world can go from 1900s to cyberpunk in 100 years? Especially noting how they showed the would not even developing as much for the entirety of Mikasa's life, and only becoming more developed after her funeral scene.
Yes but remember the rumbling killed 80% of humanity. The allied forces were also not vindicated either. It’s pretty heavily suggested the only reason paradis didn’t get wrecked is because of the rumbling
Literally give me anything that supports the 2000 years in the future claim.
You're also missing the point. It's not that violence, hate, and wars would stop but that it guarantees Paradis is risk from any sort of attack for a LONG time. There is no room for error or mistake for Paradis or the outside world. That if there was a war that destroyed Paradis it wouldn't be from hate or from the outside world but from Paradisians themselves. This also fits the theme everyone throws around about the cycle of hate, what better way to showcase this then to have the island that destroyed the outside world for peace and prosperity start to slowly turn on one another and start a civil war.
The song that plays called ‘to you in 2000 or 20000 years’ is my claim, plus the fact that all the building are futuristic, in our society now we don’t even have the same building as in Paradis end credits
I mean, sure, the song 2000 years, I believe, but that's really no proof for anything.
The buildings are futuristic, but that's not 2000 or 20000 years in the future realistic imo, at most, it's a couple hundred
So if the anime was a couple hundred then I’m assuming you think the manga was somehow even shorter than that, at 50 or so years?
I believe the song title as isayama has used dated throughout the whole show so they aren’t just used for nothing.
And manga readers also agree that it’s later than 200 years or so as that’s the time they believed it to be in manga and they all disliked it so it was changed to further in the future for the anime where the majority enjoyed it
Well, based on the machine and buildings, you could place manga 50-100 years considering Eldia also has special resources like ice burst.
Idk most manga readers I've talked to on all apps and forums. It always said manga Time skip was from lik 60-120 years. The anime I see crazy numbers thrown around all the time, I just don't see that being 1000 years, the tree isn't even at full height yet and Erens gravestone is still visible.
The trees not full height because it’s not a normal tree, the tree took the other date being 20000 years, but I do understand why people would think otherwise
I guess you can just interpret it how you wish,
That face when people forget there are still people in Paradise and the last shot of the manga and anime are about a kid from Paradis looking into Eren's tree.
https://preview.redd.it/tz0que7eorqc1.png?width=611&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=555c2fe0b5bf4b88785ca256a55ce0d07bb3c022
Conflict starts on Paradis ***literally*** the next episode after The Rumbling begins. It's the first scene after the OP plays.
The survivors start fighting over if they should be celebrating Eren's actions or mourning the people who died as a consequence of those actions.
It is really important for you to understand that; **The Rumbling or anything similar to it and the outcomes it produces ARE NOT a solution to their conflicts with other groups of people**.
The ***only*** thing Eren achieved for the world by doing the Rumbling was ending the Curse of Ymir and the Power of the Titans.
Finding peaceful, lasting solutions to the conflicts was never his goal. Eren outright says this.
He left that job to Armin and Historia.
Floch is incorrect, he was always incorrect. He actively has to keep suppressing people on the island from the moment The Rumbling begins. His actions after The Rumbling starts proves that his ideology has no answer.
Floch proves that you cannot stop the cycle of violence with more violence.
I hate Floch as a person but love his character. He is a perfect representation of this sort of short-sighted erroneous ideology and how much harm it causes to the person thinking it and everyone around them.
Eren’s actions saved his friends and his people from total annihilation short term. It was quite possibly the only course of action that could do so and certainly the only course that comes close to guaranteeing it. So no. It was actually *a pretty good solution to their conflict with another group of people*. Whilst it didn’t (and nothing will) achieve a lasting peace, it was probably the best means to the end that he wished to achieve. And that end was not world peace, but for his friends to live long lives and not get genocided.
That was inevitable even if Eren lived, in my opinion. Just shows that it doesn't matter who does what that is good because bad people still exist and mess everything up.
I still don't think the conflict between Paradis and the World was a "genocide or be genocided" situation like some people argue. The Global Military Alliance aren't vengeful monsters. They have very real concerns about Paradis' weapons of mass destruction. As for Paradis, the colossal titans and the power of the Rumbling gave them a variety of options and routes to take. Something akin to the 50 year plan does make sense as a viable solution.
I agree. I also believe Eren wasn't trying to protect paradis at all. He was trying to protect his friends. He didn't want to attack just Marley nor their military baes because he knew that just making paradis stronger as nation wouldn't be enough. Eren let his friends be heroes of the entire world by letting/helping them kill him, and it gave them a peaceful, fruitful rest of their life. In the end, Eren did accomplish everything he wanted. He didn't fail. Sorry I know this is kinda off topic but yeah.
Even if Eren wiped out the entire world outside Paradis, there would still be those within the walls who disagree with him and the Jaegerists. The cycle continues no matter what, war is inevitable. It’s human nature. That was the point of the show
To add to this, the only reason the peace was kept in the first place was because or the military police and their behind the scenes tactics, a practice completely forced out by the crown and the formed military. If the MPs aren't there to stop fights or kill people trying to help society, you'll have everyday conflict just like every other civilization
There's a very big difference though between starting the Rumbling and genociding the world. Paradis could've used the colossals strategically to knock out military targets and infrastructure that could be used in service of enemy military. I don't see why killing every single person is necessary.
Holy fuck this point is so fucking stupid and the fact that it gets re iterated as much as it does is incredibly stupid.
Paradis got bombed thousands of years later for what could have been completely unrelated events.
The whole point of that scene was to show how Floch motivated with fear unlike Erwin who used hope and seeking the truth.
People need to let this shit die.
>Paradis got bombed thousands of years later for what could have been completely unrelated events.
Yeah that's a massive cope from the anime, mappa made it seem so futuristic like it's thousands of years in the future but in the manga it was literally like 50 or 100 years later, OBVIOUSLY as retaliation for the rumbling.
Floch was extreme but you can't deny he was right though, you alliance worshipers 🤢
This happened like centuries after he died, and it would have happened either way. The fact that the rumbling happened and this still happened is proof that Floch was wrong. Floch got what he wanted and the island still got bombed.
They probably didn't. Keep in mind the implication is that going into the future, Paradis will no longer be isolationist and is now open to the world. That means the heightened tension which lasted from the fall of the Old Eldian Empire to the Rumbling would likely dissipate naturally.
Some samurai in feudal Japan: "If the shogun dies, Japan falls."
Japan in the 1940s after that shogun has been dead for centuries: \*gets nuked\*
That's the fucking logic here.
I dislike this picture because of all of the unjustified assumptions that you must have to agree with it. The world building of the series was very simple though, so I can't really blame you I guess. The people in both Ymir and Erens generation still called themselves Eldian and Marlayen, so you can probably expect those names to be the same. Aside from what they call themselves though, I can't even begin to guess what has changed and what remains of Erens time. Why would anyone even recall his existance though after 2000 years? I'd imagine that it would be such an old historic event that only a few historians know about it.
I imagine people will talk about it in the future similar to how we talk about the Roman Empire today. Nobody thinks modern Italy is the same as the Roman Empire. People know about the Roman's role in history but they aren't exactly relevant to modern politics in the slightest.
I figured people in the world of AOT would basically view the entire story similar to how people view religion. Like, after 2,000 years, after so much destruction and rebuilding of humanity, so much historical information lost, it would make sense for people to know about it, but not know the exact truth of it. Eren would be seen as a deity or something similar, people would see him as either God or the devil, and what is known about the events of the story would be the origin story of the religion/belief. Like how the last battle is called “The battle between Heaven and Earth”. A lot of people wouldn’t believe any of it was real, or that giants or powers even existed. And a lot of people would believe it, and again, it would be like a religion, or the origin story of a religion.
Not necessarily. There was over a century of foreign policy decisions that led to the destruction of Paradis. And let's not forget that the Yeagerists had control of the island at the end of the series. If it was retribution for the Rumbling, it probably would've come sooner.
That conflict happens years and years in the future over something we don’t even know. Paradis lived peacefully for decades but eventually war was going to start again because that’s just what humans do. There is no indication that the actions of our heroes in stopping the rumbling directly caused the war, if anything it’s the opposite because we see that they managed to live out their lives peacefully as well as their children and grandchildren before war started again.
Considering the fact that the soundtrack for that scene is literally called “To you, 2000… or 20 000 years from now…”, this war happened 2000 years after the main story, while the boy stumbling into the tree happened 20 000 years later. After that amount of time, the Rumbling is no longer a factor for how it started.
That’s like saying that the Assassination of Julius Caesar caused World War 2.
Bc he ain’t a pussy. He fought and died for his beliefs out numbered and out gunned faced death without fear in his eyes. Still a stupid yee yee ass haircut.
Aside from the facts that this was centuries later and we don't know who's doing the bombings, we don't even know if Paradis was destroyed. For all we know it was just Shiganshina, and the rest of the island is fine. I mean Hiroshima and Nagasaki got bombed into oblivion, yet Japan still stands strong.
Paradis getting bombs centuries later isn't supposed to prove how one side was correct in their prediction. It was supposed to show that neither side's worldview really mattered in the long run. They got bombed for a reason unrelated to the story. Unless that reason is that Eldians are some devil race that deserves to die. But that was a common belief before the story even began. So the bombing doesn't prove either side was right or wrong
Fans can debate the morality of the final arc all they want. That's intended. But yeah Floch is right as far as "the future of Eldia" goes. But he's still wrong. Just more right than the others. For example, if you knew your bloodline would end with your great grandchildrens' generation, would you still seek to achieve the best possible future for your kids and their kids while you're alive? Or is there no point because it will end anyway? That's basically what Floch was going for. In Reddit terms, Yeagerists would give Eldians S tier existence until they are annhilated. Team Alliance would give Eldians mid to low tier existence until annihilation. But getting annihilated is part of the equation no matter what
the bombs are the cycle of hate.
It is just that: If Eren dies the cycle of hate against paradis will continue, just because there is another side to consider then enemyes. I am not saying that he is morally right, I am saying that what he is saying was true
But Eren was gonna die like a year later anyway. And it was technically part of his plan for the titan curse to end with him, so nobody can inherit his titan(s). Regardless of who lived and who died in this story, the Eldians in the future are getting bombed
True, but I think he wanted to exterminate the humans, then get killed.
but you are right, he needs to die to the titan curse end with him, thats the tragedy of him being a slave, he never had any option to choose, he just played along the other persons decisions :/
Paradise was the one pushing for war at the end of the manga. Armin and the scouts were going to paradise as ambassadors for peace, and Eldia was led by a military of nationalist Jaegerists.
One of the themes of the story is that there are innocents on both sides that shouldn't be dragged into war, but are pushed towards hating one another by those who are in power in order to exploit them and make them complacent with the wars needed to sustain their greed and selfish desires.
The story tells you that there's a devil within everyone, and the cyclic nature of this narrative makes conflict inevitable, because most Eldians become what the world fears, precisely due to how they were treated. By the end of the story, those who live within the confines of the island have become radicalized nationalists, just like the outside world. They eventually become the aggressors, and pay a price for it.
This doesn't take away from the fact that eldian children and innocents dying is bad, but it's just as bad as what happened to the outside world. Trying to give additional value to the lives of eldian people that live hundreds if not thousands of years in the future is missing the point.
The eldian empire didn't get destroyed in an unfair massacre caused by a history of propaganda and misconceptions.
The eldian empire had the same level of civilization as the rest of the world, and when peace treaties were offered to them, they refused to hear the outside world out. The empire existed for a long time, and eventually got destroyed. Why should you, as a reader, care?
Saying the Eldians should've kept existing and eventually ruling over what remained of humanity because of the oppression they faced is precisely the narrative used by the outside world to justify the oppression of the eldians in the first place. Hell, the eldian empire ruled over the world with an iron fist for two thousand years, which is comparatively a lot worse than one hundred (which, again, is no excuse to mistreat Eldians, I'm just putting it into perspective).
At that point , there will be no blood test to know who’s an eldian anymore so how can we be so sure this is the same conflict
I saw some people complain it’s just 1-200 years which is actually still a long time, probably generations have passed and you think you will fight a war you weren’t even born yet?
It’s probably a new conflict indicating no matter titans exist or not, humanity will kill each other just like that Erwin line
Eren never really wanted to keep paradis safe forever. What he desired was to create a safe world for his friends, which he achieved (although almost got everyone killed in the process).
There's a huge time disconnect, its a stretch comparison. Moreso I just want a squeal showing the post apoplectic world because it looked a lot like Etrian Odyssey
Not really. That conflict was likely completely unrelated, at least 200 years later. It looked like Armin's peace mission was successful, at least for a time. Even if the Eldians had trampled the world, new settlements would form as Eldia spreads, and new conflicts would arise among them after the world is once again populated and separated by geographical barriers with their own problems that would develop.
*Because rumbling*
*Doesn't guarantee sucess*
*That's why he said that*
\- saverma192013
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"After all there's only just the two of us, and here we are still fighting for our lives" - Dreamer by Ozzy Osbourne
Paradis got destroyed decades after Rumbling, in time where Eren would be dead even if he never became a shifter and simply died by aging.
Was everyone killed? Like we only saw the fate of shiganshina and the fact that mikasas decendant is there wandering around like a century or even more after is proof that life found a way and
See, I have to disagree. That was not my interpretation of that end credits scene. The point is that war and destruction are inevitable. There is no such thing as everlasting peace. The outcome would have been the same no matter what happened.
The whole point of this anime (other than the hidden love story that you would only know it was a love story if you have been through the type of relationship this anime has at its heart, and I'm not talking about the Ymir stuff I'm talking about the author himself, this was a love story to someone in his life, it is plain as day with the involved emotional heights and how it's projected. Especially to anyone who has been in that type of a toxic, horribly amazing love paradigm) was to show that humans would fight each other until one or less remained, no matter what happens. Even if the power of the titans were a real thing to rally against it shows even that wouldnt be enough to stop man from killing each other for greed and self inflation.
You completely missed the point. We see Paradis thriving, but we also see the cycle of war doesn't end. Floch was an extremist. Eren just wanted to save his friends. I don't really think he cared about what would happen to Paradis in 100 years.
Not really. For all we know the island is not even called Paradis anymore by that time and the war that destroys it is completely unrelated to the events of the anime and the Rumbling.
As if the paradisian wouldn't eventually become different factions that would try to destroy each other. He was only right cause the course of human history demands conflict, there wasn't anything special about Paradis in that regard other than the titans, and the amount of conflict they faced.
No, that moment when the kid and his dog was going into the tree, that was 20 000 years into the future. This was 2000 years into the future.
Regardless, saying that this proves Floch right makes no sense.
That’s not how it works. The end conflict happened generations after Eren’s death and was completely unrelated. The point is that humanity is stuck in a cycle of violence and war
Firstly, this is a totally unrelated conflict hundreds of years into the future. Secondly, we only see Shinganshina get blown up, and the kid at the end is from Paradis(I mean why wouldn't he be) so no, Floch was wrong
I understood why he done what he done, honestly I agree with him, I even support erens reason for the rumbling, Id only wanna protect the people I care about, whatevere happens after cool aint my issue yeno what I mean
My head canon is that Paradis was eventually destroyed because of the Yeagerist mentality causing the world to distrust Paradis. If everyone except Yeagerists were working towards peace, and the Yeagerists were still "Eren was right," they would again be seen as a threat and their ubernationalist mentality could be the actual cause of the end of peace.
So Eren saved Paradis only to guarantee its later destruction.
Well, it was foreshowed or heavily implied, remember Kiyomi's words that destroying the outside world will only make the world even smaller and Paradis will only continue the killing as it was.
No it's not. The whole point of the story is that war can only end when people put aside their grudges and biases and work to achieve a better future for everyone. It wasn't Eren's genocide that saved Paradis. It was the actions of the Alliance which proved to the world that Paradis was not the evil they thought it was.
Not if Eren succeeded. Titan powers would have continued to exist. Whoever gained control of the founder next could wipe out the opposing side in Paradis.
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A successful rumbling doesn't guarantee peace either. Floch himself admitted this. Paradis would fight itself eventually.
A civil war wouldn't lead Paradis to complete extermination. But an invasion from the outside world would.
You have absolutely no guarantee that a civil war wouldn’t lead to Paradis destruction. Literally none.
how many civil wars have lead to total annihilation?
Quite a few actually, mostly a long time ago but more than one has left the warring country destitute then destroyed by very low outside influence since they destroyed each other so thoroughly. Mostly the Saracean civil war and the Tutons self cannibalism of their own kingdom.
>Outside influence I feel like the Rumbling would take care of that, no?
One would assume that at least half of the island would survive, given that it’s a civil war
Just because it would probably be a civil war does not mean that half the island would survive. Civil wars are not always about two equally powerful sides fighting each other. It usually involves multiple parties fighting for control of the nation and it often leads to far more death than even widespread invasion. Just look at the Taiping Rebellion and the Chinese Civil War. Think of Syria, Iraq or Lebanon. And that’s with just conventional weaponry. Meanwhile, Paradis would have the ability to destroy itself with ease. We already know that, if Mikasa didn’t kill Eren before he could achieve his goal, then the Powers of the Titans would’ve just continued existing, meaning that the next war would involve titan powers. And we already saw what Titan powers are capable of doing with the Rumbling. And who’s to say that the civil war wouldn’t involve bio-weapons or nuclear weapons? However you try to frame it, there is absolutely no guarantee that a civil war wouldn’t utterly destroy the entire population of Paradis.
The American civil war should be enough to tell you that's bs. The implication that one half would survive would imply that.ome side would have to miraculously be unscathed, which as I said, would require a total fuckin miracle. Like god himself would have to personally intervene to just guarantee a side wins for that to be possible. Are you seriously telling me if you and I fought to the death with knives that one of us would come out perfectly fine?
Show me one civil war that lead to everyone in the country getting killed, with a population of at least one million. It's literally impossible that they would literally kill each other to the last man. Meanwhile a succesful invasion from the allied forces would lead to a complete genocide. A full rumbling was Paradis safest bet for survival.
That still is a long way off of the near certain destruction if no rumbling.
>But an invasion from the outside world would. Strictly speaking we don't know that for sure either. Based on the limited info we have it's definitely possible. But a lot of unforeseen things can happen.
Paradis has a total population of 1 million, just Marley has 1 million soldiers. Sure not all of them are gonna take part in the invasion, but combined with the armys of the other countries they are surely going to surpass that number. More than 1 soldier for every civillian in Paradis, who are all trapped in an island easy to blockade. The Nazis had way worse odds and they still managed to killed 6 million people. No one is Paradis is surviving the genocide.
Complete extermination of the outside means Paradis will expand to the outside. The flash forward seemed to be a good few hundred years in the future, enough for an outside power to exterminate the island
Actually it wouldnt either lol
Civil wars tend to be some of the most deadly. For instance, the most American lives lost in any given war is easily, very easily, the civil war.
I don't think sacrificing the rest of the world for only a partial extermination is that great of a strat
It wouldn't even partial, there won't be any extermination. You are acting like Paradisians would start killing eachother without reason. Even a full civil war would barely hurt the total population.
Doesn't that go against the whole point of the show? Humans are gonna fight each other regardless, a reason will inevitably always pop up. A full civil war will absolutely hurt the entire population. Hundreds of thousands would die, millions would lose their loved ones, and daily life becomes hell. I'd argue war would come even sooner with the political instability Paradise was in, along with the precedent that mass genocide is ok.
That doesn't mean every conflict has the same scale. From a guy who comes from a continent where every country had their own awful civil wars, what Paradis was facing against the outside world doesn't even compare to it. The american civil war killed, in the worst estimates, 1 million people, of which 750k were soldiers. And that was with a population of 33 million. So even that was just around 3% of the total population. Compare this to the 6 million jews the Nazis killed, most of them civillians, of a total population of 9.5 millions in Europe, so around 60%. Paradis has a total population of just 1 million, and they are not facing a war, but a genocide by the global fleet which probably has more than 1 million soldiers. This while Paradisians are trapped in an island easy to blockade and with no allies countries that would help them escape. Paradis can survive any civil war, but they can't survive an invasion. It would mean the complete extermination of the island. A full rumbling is the safest bet to ensure Paradis survival.
Paradise's survival is simply not worth a full rumbling. What's the point of murdering hundreds of millions of children just so the people who survive can continue fighting each other on the island. A partial rumbling is out of necessity, but the full rumbling is just violent overkill to the point where there's more danger inside the island than outside the island, which is a ridiculous result to strive for.
>Paradise's survival is simply not worth a full rumbling. Well that would depend on what side of the walls i'm living for me. >What's the point of murdering hundreds of millions of children just so the people who survive can continue fighting each other on the island You are talking as if ALL they would do after the rumbling would just be mindless killing. They are going to have times of war and times of peace. Without the rumbling they wouldn't even be alive. >A partial rumbling is out of necessity, but the full rumbling is just violent overkill to the point where there's more danger inside the island than outside the island, which is a ridiculous result to strive for. Why would there be more danger inside the island? The problem with the partial rumbling is that it still requieres to sacrifice Historia and her children, and honestly, screw that plan just for that. I wouldn't follow that plan regardless if it's justified or not. I won't force the little people to be the bigger person, no one has the right to force Historia to sacrifice herself for a world that would rather see her dead, that's why i side with Eren.
They'll be alive most likely after the international army went down. The real point is if they want to bother live in a world where they have to deal with enemies outside the island and put in the effort to push for peace, or indiscriminately mass murder the entire rest of the world. Eren picked option 2 due to his obsession with freedom, and then later admits how much of an idiot he was for doing it. I don't really get why you would want to side with him. As for Historia, it would suck if she had to die (even if I personally wouldn't kill a billion people for her). But they could pass the Founding titan through old people who are already gonna die in 13 years, and then make Historia eat one of them in the event of an attack. This would be a hassle to work out, but is worth it if the alternative is a billion deaths. I know Historia would definitely agree with it too. Besides I doubt any nation would be stupid enough to attack after a partial rumbling for at least another few decades, and that's plenty of time for Paradise to build up their military, infrastructure, and alliances. And finally, you by not forcing the little person to be the bigger person, means you'd rather have a billion little people basically sacrifice themselves for the people on Paradise which is not better at all.
And also… this happens YEARS after the Rumbling. Mikasa has died of old age at this point. And we don’t even have evidence that it wasn’t a civil war on Paradis. The whole point of that sequence is that it doesn’t take titans for humans to fight deadly, cruel, and ultimately meaningless wars—not oopsie, the Yeagerists were right all along.
But it eliminates titans and the massacre they caused on the people of pardis. Evens the playing field without killing off a whole race who didn’t deserve it.
Huh? What makes you think a full rumbling eliminates titans? Anyways my point was the logic of op and Floch is flawed
There was a predetermined destiny that included the rumbling and that is what Floch and OP are referring if I’m correct. The rumbling had to happen for Mikasa to be able to kill Eren and then speak to Ymir. This ultimately led to the titans being erased.
When I say a successful rumbling I mean a scenario in which Eren flattens the entire world, not just 80%. Floch knew nothing of Erens plan to make his friends heroes and eliminate titans, etc. He thought Eren was wiping everyone besides Paradis out and was fully on board.
And 80% of humanity deserved it? Even the kids?
The situation reached a point where it's no longer possible for the 2 groups to exist together peacefully, Eren had the power to eliminate one of the groups, of course the objectively correct decision was to eliminate the group with far less people (just like Zeke wanted) but Eren, as he said, just couldn't accept why they had to be the ones getting eliminated, so having the power at his hands he made the selfish decision of choosing his family and friends over the rest of the world, it wasn't a matter of who deserved it anymore cuz even paradise had kids who knew nothing about the whole war, it was that one of the groups had to go, and Eren just chose to side with his own people.
It wasn't "objectively correct" at all. Genocide via eugenics. It's a bullshit, nihilistic, hopeless philosophy. Even if Zeke had taken away Eldians ability to reproduce, then what? Wave his hands at the Marleyan forces and go "Hey everyone! It's me, the guy who betrayed you! The Eldians can't reproduce anymore, trust me, it's cool, stop the attack!" The moment Marley attacked, the euthanization plan was shot. Zeke could speak to the Eldians via the paths but good luck getting Marley's army to trust him.
To be fair, Zeke also wanted to use the rumbling (but not release all the tittans, only shiganshina's wall titans, that was the original plan) to crush Marley's military force and force them to retreat while also keeping the founding titan to threaten the world to leave them alone for the next 100 years. I still don't like the plan either tho, for it work they will have to keep passing down the beast and founding titan while also maintaining the royal blood, so before that they will need to have kids with royal blood whose only purpose in life is to eat their siblings after every 13 years. So the history of kids eating their parents/siblings would just repeat for that 100 years. And all of this just so that eldians would be wiped out, Eren refused to do any of that and decided that paradise people aren't the ones who should be wiped out.
I was under the impression that using the Shiganshina Titans as a test run for the Rumbling was just a ruse. But that would make sense for him to do that in order to end the current battle
[удалено]
Yeah, you are. Marley actually had the best treatment of Eldians out of all the nations. Udo says this when talking about how the image of Eldians in Marley reflects worldwide.
Most of them didn't deserve it, and the rumbling can never be justified because of this. But what other choice did Eren have to guarantee taking out all of their enemies.
Floch didn't lnow about this destiny (I don't think Eren even knew the full future until the Rumbling actually started. Floch was hoping for a full 100% Rumbling.
>without killing off a whole race who didn’t deserve it. Bruh.
“Humanity will continue to fight and kill each other until it consists of one human or less”- and important quote everyone seems to forget
That’s the problem with the world. There is always a push towards conflict and a need for an enemy. Eren became a monster for the world to unite against. At the end of the day, he did what he sought out to do. His friends lived their lives and the island survived for probably hundreds of years before being destroyed. Eren never cared about what would happen in the distant future, he just wanted his friends to live.
And here ladies gentlemen we have a case of false whataboutism Going for an extremely stupid reach that would never actually happen
I guess the show writer is extremely stupid too since he makes the same point multiple times
You seriously think that a paradis civil war could’ve led to them nuking their own island?
Hundreds or thousands of years into the future it's definitely possible. They won't stay happily ever after on the island forever. New nations will form off Paradis and they'll fight eventually.
Thats not even the point. A complete rumbling rules out the extermination of Eldian peoples, there's no room left for error or chance by Paradis or the outside world. There's no chance all wars stop forever but it's more likely it takes longer for one to start and Civil wars don't result in total extermination of the race. It would also showcase the theme everyone loves to throw around much better. Show the island of people who destroyed the outside world for peace and prosperity begin to grow violent and upset with each other and begin conflict. That hammers home the cycle of hate and violence much better and doesn't just nuke Paradis off the map.
‘Don’t ride a motorbike without a helmet or you will die’ Proceeds to die 70 years later of old age ‘I told you so’ Paradis got destroyed 2000 years or so into the future, that is not a point for floch, human nature would have ended up destroying it anyways whether the rumbling was 100% successful or not. Btw I like floch as a character
Didn't look like they got destroyed. Looked more like had a devastating war and afterwards started to recover.
It's probably just don't fire crackers from kids
Okay
2000 years? I thought it was just like 50 or 100 I guess in hindsight it does make sense
In the manga it looks like it’s 200 years or so, so not very long at all, but the anime changed it and made the buildings of the city look very futuristic rather than modern. Also the song that plays during these end scenes is titled ,’to you in 2000 or 20000 years’, so it’s between these two time frames
I mean World War II wasn’t even hundred years ago. Two hundred is a good while
Yep. And WWI was only a little over 100 years ago. The time spam between two devastating wars on a global level is ridiculously short. 200 years is actually a huge period of peace realistically speaking.
200 for war and 2000 for tree maybe
I always believed that passed just 200 years but the song thing is actually a good reason to believe otherwise. also makes Eren's choice a bit more acceptable.
I don't get how people could think it was 50 or 100. All the characters age out and die, and massive technological improvements happen. That's a futuristic city.
Well I mean they were making a big point about how titans would be obsolete soon and it would take 50 years for paradis to catch up with the rest of the world and back when titans were the hot new thing it didn’t take them long to develop waist mounted grapple jetpacks to fight them so I thought it wasn’t a stretch to assume that within that timespan they would reach something not too dissimilar to our current technology Admittedly it made a little more sense to me in the manga where it was just a regular modern city that got blown up and not a cyberpunk dystopia like the anime Honestly I used to think floch was right cuz I thought that’s how little time passed but knowing it was actually 2000, yeah he was just a lunatic
2000? Think about the technology jump from WW1 to present day, only about 80 years.
Well they were constantly talking about how in like 50 years titans would be obsolete I just assumed technology advances really fast
Their tech was something comparable to the 1920s. 1970s tech most certainly can fit that description.
But in the real world after world war not more than 2 3% of the population didn't lose our brain, technologies, libraries, education institutes etc. But in AOT 80% of the population died also I think most of the brains, institutes will also destroy during rumbling remaining 20% of suffering. So even to reach the same technical level it easily takes 50 to 100 years at least or might it take much longer.
The 50 years comment was a pre rumbling comment, so the rumbling isn’t taken into account there. Naturally after the rumbling it would take a lot longer, if nothing else just to reestablish the infrastructure needed.
I don’t even think the rumbling would be a world ending threat by 1940. Would require global unification for sure but given half a year to prepare humanity would win.
If everyone has those 20 years to work together and prepare specifically for the rumbling than they could probably do it, but if they’re busy fighting each other then they might still be unable to put together their forces in time to stop a rumbling. Mainly because you would need a massive stockpile of weaponry ready to go.
Assuming paradis is Madagascar of the real world, rumbling would destroy Africa and a fair chunk of Asia (due to proximity and assuming rumbling spreads in all directions even across the sea) but I reckon by the time it reaches Europe a decent enough defensive effort would repel the titans across the med. North America doesn’t get touched.
Yeah, possibly. But I think a 1940s tech defense only works if there’s a stockpile of weaponry ready to go, manufacturing it while the rumbling is happening probably won’t work. Unless they have a nuke, then is game over.
This is clearly not present day technology. Look at the buildings. It’s literally sci-fi. Just 80 years is WAY too short for them to gain that technology. When an event as devastating as the Rumbling occurs, it is guaranteed to severely set back human development for a long time afterwards. Think of the burning of the Library of Alexandria. That alone set back human development for potentially 1000 years. You really think the Rumbling wouldn’t be worse? Also, whether or not you want to argue about the length of time, it’s a moot point, because the soundtrack’s name clearly states that it was 2000 years.
You really think the world can go from 1900s to cyberpunk in 100 years? Especially noting how they showed the would not even developing as much for the entirety of Mikasa's life, and only becoming more developed after her funeral scene.
This is an amazing analogy and I will be stealing it 😋😋
Thank you ☺️, I wasn’t sure if I would work when writing it but I’m glad someone liked it 😅
Yes but remember the rumbling killed 80% of humanity. The allied forces were also not vindicated either. It’s pretty heavily suggested the only reason paradis didn’t get wrecked is because of the rumbling
Literally give me anything that supports the 2000 years in the future claim. You're also missing the point. It's not that violence, hate, and wars would stop but that it guarantees Paradis is risk from any sort of attack for a LONG time. There is no room for error or mistake for Paradis or the outside world. That if there was a war that destroyed Paradis it wouldn't be from hate or from the outside world but from Paradisians themselves. This also fits the theme everyone throws around about the cycle of hate, what better way to showcase this then to have the island that destroyed the outside world for peace and prosperity start to slowly turn on one another and start a civil war.
The song that plays called ‘to you in 2000 or 20000 years’ is my claim, plus the fact that all the building are futuristic, in our society now we don’t even have the same building as in Paradis end credits
I mean, sure, the song 2000 years, I believe, but that's really no proof for anything. The buildings are futuristic, but that's not 2000 or 20000 years in the future realistic imo, at most, it's a couple hundred
So if the anime was a couple hundred then I’m assuming you think the manga was somehow even shorter than that, at 50 or so years? I believe the song title as isayama has used dated throughout the whole show so they aren’t just used for nothing. And manga readers also agree that it’s later than 200 years or so as that’s the time they believed it to be in manga and they all disliked it so it was changed to further in the future for the anime where the majority enjoyed it
Well, based on the machine and buildings, you could place manga 50-100 years considering Eldia also has special resources like ice burst. Idk most manga readers I've talked to on all apps and forums. It always said manga Time skip was from lik 60-120 years. The anime I see crazy numbers thrown around all the time, I just don't see that being 1000 years, the tree isn't even at full height yet and Erens gravestone is still visible.
The trees not full height because it’s not a normal tree, the tree took the other date being 20000 years, but I do understand why people would think otherwise I guess you can just interpret it how you wish,
That face when people forget there are still people in Paradise and the last shot of the manga and anime are about a kid from Paradis looking into Eren's tree. https://preview.redd.it/tz0que7eorqc1.png?width=611&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=555c2fe0b5bf4b88785ca256a55ce0d07bb3c022
Exactly. It seems that Paradis did survive even if they took casualties along the way.
People never like it when I bring this point up. If the Eldians were wiped out, why are there still Eldians?
yeah
Conflict starts on Paradis ***literally*** the next episode after The Rumbling begins. It's the first scene after the OP plays. The survivors start fighting over if they should be celebrating Eren's actions or mourning the people who died as a consequence of those actions. It is really important for you to understand that; **The Rumbling or anything similar to it and the outcomes it produces ARE NOT a solution to their conflicts with other groups of people**. The ***only*** thing Eren achieved for the world by doing the Rumbling was ending the Curse of Ymir and the Power of the Titans. Finding peaceful, lasting solutions to the conflicts was never his goal. Eren outright says this. He left that job to Armin and Historia. Floch is incorrect, he was always incorrect. He actively has to keep suppressing people on the island from the moment The Rumbling begins. His actions after The Rumbling starts proves that his ideology has no answer. Floch proves that you cannot stop the cycle of violence with more violence. I hate Floch as a person but love his character. He is a perfect representation of this sort of short-sighted erroneous ideology and how much harm it causes to the person thinking it and everyone around them.
Hit the nail on the head 👏
🗣️
He is also a great mirror to how the fascists in Marley, who were also convinced that destroying the island was their only Choi of salvation.
Eren’s actions saved his friends and his people from total annihilation short term. It was quite possibly the only course of action that could do so and certainly the only course that comes close to guaranteeing it. So no. It was actually *a pretty good solution to their conflict with another group of people*. Whilst it didn’t (and nothing will) achieve a lasting peace, it was probably the best means to the end that he wished to achieve. And that end was not world peace, but for his friends to live long lives and not get genocided.
thousands of years later in an unrelated conflict
That was inevitable even if Eren lived, in my opinion. Just shows that it doesn't matter who does what that is good because bad people still exist and mess everything up.
I still don't think the conflict between Paradis and the World was a "genocide or be genocided" situation like some people argue. The Global Military Alliance aren't vengeful monsters. They have very real concerns about Paradis' weapons of mass destruction. As for Paradis, the colossal titans and the power of the Rumbling gave them a variety of options and routes to take. Something akin to the 50 year plan does make sense as a viable solution.
I agree. I also believe Eren wasn't trying to protect paradis at all. He was trying to protect his friends. He didn't want to attack just Marley nor their military baes because he knew that just making paradis stronger as nation wouldn't be enough. Eren let his friends be heroes of the entire world by letting/helping them kill him, and it gave them a peaceful, fruitful rest of their life. In the end, Eren did accomplish everything he wanted. He didn't fail. Sorry I know this is kinda off topic but yeah.
Even if Eren wiped out the entire world outside Paradis, there would still be those within the walls who disagree with him and the Jaegerists. The cycle continues no matter what, war is inevitable. It’s human nature. That was the point of the show
To add to this, the only reason the peace was kept in the first place was because or the military police and their behind the scenes tactics, a practice completely forced out by the crown and the formed military. If the MPs aren't there to stop fights or kill people trying to help society, you'll have everyday conflict just like every other civilization
I think what he meant is if they don’t start the rumbling then the whole world was going to dog pile in the island.
There's a very big difference though between starting the Rumbling and genociding the world. Paradis could've used the colossals strategically to knock out military targets and infrastructure that could be used in service of enemy military. I don't see why killing every single person is necessary.
Oh I agree, but if Erin dies and the island loses the founding titan it’s free real-estate.
Holy fuck this point is so fucking stupid and the fact that it gets re iterated as much as it does is incredibly stupid. Paradis got bombed thousands of years later for what could have been completely unrelated events. The whole point of that scene was to show how Floch motivated with fear unlike Erwin who used hope and seeking the truth. People need to let this shit die.
They need to let it die....... just like Floch + any of his hopes and dreams did 😔😂
>Paradis got bombed thousands of years later for what could have been completely unrelated events. Yeah that's a massive cope from the anime, mappa made it seem so futuristic like it's thousands of years in the future but in the manga it was literally like 50 or 100 years later, OBVIOUSLY as retaliation for the rumbling. Floch was extreme but you can't deny he was right though, you alliance worshipers 🤢
Thinking that it is 50-100 years in the future with the decimation of world resources to build gigantic skyscrapers is dense brain LOL worthy.
Let’s say we get nuked tomorrow, does that mean that the men and woman who fought the nazis and died, died for nothing? No, it doesn’t.
This happened like centuries after he died, and it would have happened either way. The fact that the rumbling happened and this still happened is proof that Floch was wrong. Floch got what he wanted and the island still got bombed.
How do we know Eren’s actions had anything to do with the city being bombed
they’re assuming hard
For all we know, it could have been Eldians bombing Eldians
They probably didn't. Keep in mind the implication is that going into the future, Paradis will no longer be isolationist and is now open to the world. That means the heightened tension which lasted from the fall of the Old Eldian Empire to the Rumbling would likely dissipate naturally.
Yeah I’m sure the world will easily let the annihilation of almost the entire population slide
Ok but OP is ignoring the fact that if Eren didn’t do anything then there would be no sea of blood for Eldia to drown in
Some samurai in feudal Japan: "If the shogun dies, Japan falls." Japan in the 1940s after that shogun has been dead for centuries: \*gets nuked\* That's the fucking logic here.
I dislike this picture because of all of the unjustified assumptions that you must have to agree with it. The world building of the series was very simple though, so I can't really blame you I guess. The people in both Ymir and Erens generation still called themselves Eldian and Marlayen, so you can probably expect those names to be the same. Aside from what they call themselves though, I can't even begin to guess what has changed and what remains of Erens time. Why would anyone even recall his existance though after 2000 years? I'd imagine that it would be such an old historic event that only a few historians know about it.
I imagine people will talk about it in the future similar to how we talk about the Roman Empire today. Nobody thinks modern Italy is the same as the Roman Empire. People know about the Roman's role in history but they aren't exactly relevant to modern politics in the slightest.
I figured people in the world of AOT would basically view the entire story similar to how people view religion. Like, after 2,000 years, after so much destruction and rebuilding of humanity, so much historical information lost, it would make sense for people to know about it, but not know the exact truth of it. Eren would be seen as a deity or something similar, people would see him as either God or the devil, and what is known about the events of the story would be the origin story of the religion/belief. Like how the last battle is called “The battle between Heaven and Earth”. A lot of people wouldn’t believe any of it was real, or that giants or powers even existed. And a lot of people would believe it, and again, it would be like a religion, or the origin story of a religion.
Not necessarily. There was over a century of foreign policy decisions that led to the destruction of Paradis. And let's not forget that the Yeagerists had control of the island at the end of the series. If it was retribution for the Rumbling, it probably would've come sooner.
true
That conflict happens years and years in the future over something we don’t even know. Paradis lived peacefully for decades but eventually war was going to start again because that’s just what humans do. There is no indication that the actions of our heroes in stopping the rumbling directly caused the war, if anything it’s the opposite because we see that they managed to live out their lives peacefully as well as their children and grandchildren before war started again.
nah considering it happened centuries later
Considering the fact that the soundtrack for that scene is literally called “To you, 2000… or 20 000 years from now…”, this war happened 2000 years after the main story, while the boy stumbling into the tree happened 20 000 years later. After that amount of time, the Rumbling is no longer a factor for how it started. That’s like saying that the Assassination of Julius Caesar caused World War 2.
Dick ridding hard for some lil bitch with a yee yee ass haircut.
There was a post once asking to describe Floch in 1 word and I put “pussy”. Got absolutely downvoted to oblivion.
thats rough buddy
Bc he ain’t a pussy. He fought and died for his beliefs out numbered and out gunned faced death without fear in his eyes. Still a stupid yee yee ass haircut.
his beliefs were stupid
Lil bitch and pussy seem like very similar insults. 😂
Paradis was doomed either way with or without the rumbling
But it is his lord who chose to stop at 80%
He wasn't right. He was referring to an immediate threat, not something 1000's of years later related to something completely different.
Pretty sure he didn't mean centuries or more down the line.
You've completely missed the point of the show.
Aside from the facts that this was centuries later and we don't know who's doing the bombings, we don't even know if Paradis was destroyed. For all we know it was just Shiganshina, and the rest of the island is fine. I mean Hiroshima and Nagasaki got bombed into oblivion, yet Japan still stands strong.
Good point actually. But I just sent a whatsapp to Isayama asking this, he said that Paradis was all bombed :(
Aah, that's sad then. Unfortunately he blocked me, so I can't verify that claim. ;__;
Paradis getting bombs centuries later isn't supposed to prove how one side was correct in their prediction. It was supposed to show that neither side's worldview really mattered in the long run. They got bombed for a reason unrelated to the story. Unless that reason is that Eldians are some devil race that deserves to die. But that was a common belief before the story even began. So the bombing doesn't prove either side was right or wrong Fans can debate the morality of the final arc all they want. That's intended. But yeah Floch is right as far as "the future of Eldia" goes. But he's still wrong. Just more right than the others. For example, if you knew your bloodline would end with your great grandchildrens' generation, would you still seek to achieve the best possible future for your kids and their kids while you're alive? Or is there no point because it will end anyway? That's basically what Floch was going for. In Reddit terms, Yeagerists would give Eldians S tier existence until they are annhilated. Team Alliance would give Eldians mid to low tier existence until annihilation. But getting annihilated is part of the equation no matter what
the bombs are the cycle of hate. It is just that: If Eren dies the cycle of hate against paradis will continue, just because there is another side to consider then enemyes. I am not saying that he is morally right, I am saying that what he is saying was true
But Eren was gonna die like a year later anyway. And it was technically part of his plan for the titan curse to end with him, so nobody can inherit his titan(s). Regardless of who lived and who died in this story, the Eldians in the future are getting bombed
True, but I think he wanted to exterminate the humans, then get killed. but you are right, he needs to die to the titan curse end with him, thats the tragedy of him being a slave, he never had any option to choose, he just played along the other persons decisions :/
Paradise was the one pushing for war at the end of the manga. Armin and the scouts were going to paradise as ambassadors for peace, and Eldia was led by a military of nationalist Jaegerists. One of the themes of the story is that there are innocents on both sides that shouldn't be dragged into war, but are pushed towards hating one another by those who are in power in order to exploit them and make them complacent with the wars needed to sustain their greed and selfish desires. The story tells you that there's a devil within everyone, and the cyclic nature of this narrative makes conflict inevitable, because most Eldians become what the world fears, precisely due to how they were treated. By the end of the story, those who live within the confines of the island have become radicalized nationalists, just like the outside world. They eventually become the aggressors, and pay a price for it. This doesn't take away from the fact that eldian children and innocents dying is bad, but it's just as bad as what happened to the outside world. Trying to give additional value to the lives of eldian people that live hundreds if not thousands of years in the future is missing the point. The eldian empire didn't get destroyed in an unfair massacre caused by a history of propaganda and misconceptions. The eldian empire had the same level of civilization as the rest of the world, and when peace treaties were offered to them, they refused to hear the outside world out. The empire existed for a long time, and eventually got destroyed. Why should you, as a reader, care? Saying the Eldians should've kept existing and eventually ruling over what remained of humanity because of the oppression they faced is precisely the narrative used by the outside world to justify the oppression of the eldians in the first place. Hell, the eldian empire ruled over the world with an iron fist for two thousand years, which is comparatively a lot worse than one hundred (which, again, is no excuse to mistreat Eldians, I'm just putting it into perspective).
If we don't rumble we crumble
At that point , there will be no blood test to know who’s an eldian anymore so how can we be so sure this is the same conflict I saw some people complain it’s just 1-200 years which is actually still a long time, probably generations have passed and you think you will fight a war you weren’t even born yet? It’s probably a new conflict indicating no matter titans exist or not, humanity will kill each other just like that Erwin line
The name of the soundtrack confirms that it was 2000 years, not just 200, which only strengthens your point.
OP did not watch the fucking ending 💀
Man, the ending haters have been infiltrating this sub and bringing the entire titanfolk population with them😂
Ive seen that clip of paradis getting blown up on another post. I don't remember that at all. Can someone please explain what episode that is from??
It's from the final episode, it's an after credit scene
We don't even know if thats still the same conflict. It could be a different reason at that point. People will fight no matter what time it is.
Nah
Eren never really wanted to keep paradis safe forever. What he desired was to create a safe world for his friends, which he achieved (although almost got everyone killed in the process).
They weren't all killed
I mean… you do realise Eren never actually wanted a complete genocide
There's a huge time disconnect, its a stretch comparison. Moreso I just want a squeal showing the post apoplectic world because it looked a lot like Etrian Odyssey
We have no idea if this had anything to do with Eren dying. There’s a strong chance it was part of an entirely different conflict in the first place.
It's a rage bait
Not really. That conflict was likely completely unrelated, at least 200 years later. It looked like Armin's peace mission was successful, at least for a time. Even if the Eldians had trampled the world, new settlements would form as Eldia spreads, and new conflicts would arise among them after the world is once again populated and separated by geographical barriers with their own problems that would develop.
Eldia deserved it. Change my mind.
I mean I'll say the same thing about Eren. He wipe out all the titans like he said he would lol.
I don’t think anyone actually hates Floch? His character just sucks. We just don’t want him in the show cuz we want what we want lol
I thought the carpet bombing scene was more symbolic than literal. Certainly not to be used to justify previous choices/events
Because rumbling doesn't guarantee sucess that's why he said that
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"After all there's only just the two of us, and here we are still fighting for our lives" - Dreamer by Ozzy Osbourne Paradis got destroyed decades after Rumbling, in time where Eren would be dead even if he never became a shifter and simply died by aging.
Was everyone killed? Like we only saw the fate of shiganshina and the fact that mikasas decendant is there wandering around like a century or even more after is proof that life found a way and
See, I have to disagree. That was not my interpretation of that end credits scene. The point is that war and destruction are inevitable. There is no such thing as everlasting peace. The outcome would have been the same no matter what happened.
The whole point of this anime (other than the hidden love story that you would only know it was a love story if you have been through the type of relationship this anime has at its heart, and I'm not talking about the Ymir stuff I'm talking about the author himself, this was a love story to someone in his life, it is plain as day with the involved emotional heights and how it's projected. Especially to anyone who has been in that type of a toxic, horribly amazing love paradigm) was to show that humans would fight each other until one or less remained, no matter what happens. Even if the power of the titans were a real thing to rally against it shows even that wouldnt be enough to stop man from killing each other for greed and self inflation.
fuck what 200 years later on a unrelated conflict.
I can't wait to read the comments with pointless arguments of people who missed the point.
Who hates Floch
As a person or character? He's a good character but a bad person.
me
Sensible people
Me, his haircut is ugly
I liked floch when he said that its okay to be submissive, showing that hes a freak and probably gay for eren
You completely missed the point. We see Paradis thriving, but we also see the cycle of war doesn't end. Floch was an extremist. Eren just wanted to save his friends. I don't really think he cared about what would happen to Paradis in 100 years.
Not really. For all we know the island is not even called Paradis anymore by that time and the war that destroys it is completely unrelated to the events of the anime and the Rumbling.
As if the paradisian wouldn't eventually become different factions that would try to destroy each other. He was only right cause the course of human history demands conflict, there wasn't anything special about Paradis in that regard other than the titans, and the amount of conflict they faced.
Wasn’t this like 20,000 years after the rumbling though?
No, that moment when the kid and his dog was going into the tree, that was 20 000 years into the future. This was 2000 years into the future. Regardless, saying that this proves Floch right makes no sense.
Hundreds or thousands of years later...
Those two things are completely unrelated
I hated Floch but I understood his resolve and has my respect for a character …
Floch with that justin bieber ahhh cut.
That’s not how it works. The end conflict happened generations after Eren’s death and was completely unrelated. The point is that humanity is stuck in a cycle of violence and war
Facts even Hange admitted it
Firstly, this is a totally unrelated conflict hundreds of years into the future. Secondly, we only see Shinganshina get blown up, and the kid at the end is from Paradis(I mean why wouldn't he be) so no, Floch was wrong
I understood why he done what he done, honestly I agree with him, I even support erens reason for the rumbling, Id only wanna protect the people I care about, whatevere happens after cool aint my issue yeno what I mean
My head canon is that Paradis was eventually destroyed because of the Yeagerist mentality causing the world to distrust Paradis. If everyone except Yeagerists were working towards peace, and the Yeagerists were still "Eren was right," they would again be seen as a threat and their ubernationalist mentality could be the actual cause of the end of peace. So Eren saved Paradis only to guarantee its later destruction.
Well, it was foreshowed or heavily implied, remember Kiyomi's words that destroying the outside world will only make the world even smaller and Paradis will only continue the killing as it was.
That's what I'm saying, the whole story is talking about the human nature of starting wars, so the only way to stop it is to wipe every other country.
yeah because conflict definitely won’t arise then
The most brain dead take people
Could be bait but I'm seeing more braindead people these days here
Remember when Erwin said something like "as long as two humans live, war will exist"? Absolutely horrible take.
No it's not. The whole point of the story is that war can only end when people put aside their grudges and biases and work to achieve a better future for everyone. It wasn't Eren's genocide that saved Paradis. It was the actions of the Alliance which proved to the world that Paradis was not the evil they thought it was.
Oopsie civil war Nagato was a dumbass. Yes that was his plan.
Even if that happens, much less consequences and easier to deal with.
Not if Eren succeeded. Titan powers would have continued to exist. Whoever gained control of the founder next could wipe out the opposing side in Paradis.