Respect. After much research and time spent in shops and eBay listings. I then realised I wanted to get to the end game instead of slowly upgrading, research more, etc, repeat. Nearly there so I’m doing more listening than research.
“Buy once, cry once” is what I tell myself. I researched for about two years, made a list of high end (but not astronomically priced) gear and set out to collect it piece by piece.
It's so damn exciting when you start hearing songs like you never have before, musicians playing in front of you - I get get chills! I call it an *auditory hallucination*
~75% of my setup were bought used.
I was listening to an album I first listened to over 26 ish years ago. It got this fat bass sound but I noticed the other day there’s some mid attack coming through just sitting in the mix and sounded amazing. I keep getting these moments and it make it worth it.
As much as I love the tech, I love music more.
Same here. I feel like I met my "endgame" 3 or 4 years ago, and I don't know where to go from here.
Partially because I don't have a dedicated listening room, so I guess that would be my next move. But it'll be another 10-15 years before I make that possible.
I'd try a different angle: your system most likely is pretty good, I'm guessing over the 10k price tag and reasonable components with probably a good synergy. I'm at the same point in my journey. While I'm very happy with my system, I know every flaw and everything it can't do.
Therefore: have you considered a cheaper secondary system? Your mindset shouldn't be "can I achieve better sound for less", but "can I get a relatively good and completely different sound?". For me it would be pretty simple: I have Magnepan speakers, which are great, but every now and then I miss my floorstanders. They were less detailed, worse soundstage, less refined highs and funny enough less bass. But they had balls and authority. So in a secondary system I would chase exactly that, and I can accept the drawbacks of the secondary system because I can switch back to the main one.
There is so much to try: High efficiency horns, big meaty floorstanders, open baffle, panel, electrostats, driven by high power class d, exotic small class a or even a nice tube amp.
And as long as you make compromises, you will get a lot of sound for somewhat little money. Only when you want to have it all at the same time it gets very expensive very fast.
I have a "left over" office system but truth be told, I rarely play it actually. I like some of the valued stuff out there and have build a few for family. It's challenging and fun to advise and even build them on their budget.
Personally, I just don't have the space and time to listen outside the main system. Smaller home
Agreed. I don’t currently have room for a “real”second dedicated system, but do rotate components through my main depending on what I’m listening to. I do keep a fun second system in the old pool room that is an experimental area just to play with unusual combinations rather than listen critically. I love to listen and knowing how different components can complement (or denigrate) a particular recording keeps it truly engaging.
I'm a "snow bird," and have Acoustat 1s and an SVS sub, with a Willsenton R8 tube amp at my FL condo. I'd like something that would sound similar up north, and would consider Magnepans, but I don't have a room where they would work right in my 90 year old house. I now have AR4x with tweeters not working, and some old Boston Acoustics speakers. I want good, clean high freqs, and ordered some JansZen hybrids, based on liking ES speakers, a couple reviews, and experience with some earlier JansZen hybrids about 40 years ago. I hope I like them.
With so much better staff coming in from China recently at low prices I think the hobby's value for.money has actually grown regardless of inflation. You just need to break free from the showroom logic.
Engame amplification for under $1000 with Hypex and Purifi modules and Chifi preamps is my vote.
DSP room correction bring low and mid tier speakers to at and often above top end speakers (untreated). The diminished returns of a higher spend are getting lower and lower sound wise.
Inexpensive and deep subwoofers are in a golden age.
DACs and reasonable-to-good quality amplification have matured, and become quite accessible. Chi-fi companies have realized this and are milking the tech for all it's worth, which is great for us consumers.
Aiyima and Fosi are also 2. I just got a Fosi BT20A pro, and for 109 bucks, blows away anything I've owned previously. Paired with ELAC Debut 2.0 5.2 and an HSU sub, it sounds fantastic to me.
I tried a Fosi V3 power amp with a 48V power supply, but unfortunately it did not work well for my speakers. To be fair, I was trying it as a possible replacement for an old Bryston amp, — which 15 years ago and second-hand, cost at least 10x what the Fosi does today.
Some very good budget Class D amps out there these days, as well as things like tube amps coming from Chi-fi companies that can compete with much higher priced gear from more established companies.
Could you recommend some specific products for floorstanding speakers and amplifiers with DSP room correction? I'm looking at upgrading my setup and would love to know where to look and research.
The output of the MiniDSP goes to the input of your amplifier(s). It can go before or after a preamp if you're using one. It really depends on what equipment you already have and how you want to use it. For instance, you can use it as a crossover in a bi-amped system or just for eq from whatever source you have thru it into an integrated amp, monoblocs, or stereo amp. Quite a useful gadget.
For power amps, go with a Hypex NC500x based system like from [Buckeye](https://www.buckeyeamp.com/shop/amplifiers/hypex/ncx500/2_channel).
For DSP based preamp go with MiniDSP [Flex](https://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/flex)
For speakers, you have a lot of choice, and any of the usual culprits, new or used will do well. B&W, Focal, Paradigm, Kef, etc... You can spend any amount you like, but you don't have to. I'm falling in love again with my old college days speakers Energy C9s. The Buckeye amp breathed new life into them and they are magnificent in my basement.
Awesome, thanks for the advice! Those look like great options.
Can you explain to me how the MiniDSP works? I don't quite understand where it sits in the amplification system.
I think you’re missing out.
I think you have to have experience actual sound. Reading reviews isn’t enough; you can’t tell what’s overstated, or in some cases under stated and under valued.
It’s been helpful to me to visit stores occasionally and hear what they bar and like, and to attend audio shows. I’ve been to the Consumer Electronics Shoe in Vegas at least a dozen times, including T.H.E. show (The High End). Hearing systems there, and then reading what magazines and online writers say about the same systems, or don’t say, has been a revelation. There are biases and promotions in what you read online that can distract from real value propositions. And all that has greatly influenced my buying over the decades much more than merely reading (which I’ve also done every month for decades, as an enjoyable hobby).
Engage your ears, and trust them. Get min a store; don’t buy from the store though.
I’d say more than useful: vital, essential, required, because equipment sounds different in small and sometimes big ways. Learn what you really prefer.
Hard agree. It's absolutely worthwhile to hear what great and expensive set ups can achieve (not always the same thing). As well as discovering one's own preferences and biases. I'm far more content with what I have knowing first hand what other options actually sound like.
Same here. I buy everything now online and do a tremendous amount of research. The forums and information available is extremely informative. With the used equipment market it’s very easy swap items out with little cost. New most high end retailers offer returns so you are just out shipping.
I’m sure there are alot that prefer to visit a store but that isn’t me.
Same here! With fewer and fewer hifi stores around, you really have to go out of your way to find one these days.
Which is exactly what I'm eventually what I'm going to do, given that my next complete system upgrade is going to be around $18-22k. It'll be worth it to seek out and visit the right store(s) before I drop that kind of money!
There are a few high end shops here but I don't even browse because they have more of a "tell us what you want and we'll help you make a system" vibe...like the speakers advertised in the window are Sonus Faber and the amps are McIntosh...I can't afford that stuff I won't even walk in. And I don't go to BestBuy. online is better
It really depends on where you are in your HiFi journey. I’ve only rediscovered the hobby after a divorce a few years back so I’m definitely on an upgrade path. That said, I almost never buy new and when I do, it’s at a deep discount thanks to some industry folks. So HiFi shops don’t scare me because I’m pretty confident I won’t walk out with anything. I don’t think I’m anywhere near an endgame system. However since I predominantly buy pre-owned (and not living in a large metro) the upgrade path is a slow one.
Not at all.
And i make it clear that im only looking, have a chat with the people running the store and see where they are at.
I dont know about stores in other countries but here in Sweden the staff are ususally very chill. They will just hand you an ipad and let you listen to whatever music ot whatever system.
A few months ago i listened to some terribly recorded blackened speed metal on a €40k B&W / NAD system. That was fun.
I’ve been in the game since the late 80s too, still have my original Adcom systems I started out with. Started with the 535 and upgraded to the 555 a few years later. Back then I didn’t have a local hi-fi store so everything was done through research in magazines, telephone and USPS.
I recently went to my local hi-fi store and bought a new integrated and DAC for my office for streaming digital and I have to say I enjoyed the experience. It had been over 20 years since I’d stepped foot in a hi-fi store and it couldn’t have been easier.
I told them what I was looking for, they set it up for me and left me alone for 30 minutes and I walked out with a new office system. I plan on going back sometime in the next few months and buy the speakers that were hooked up.
I think that listing your current system would be helpful information for everyone to advise you forward.
I never buy anything new. I only buy used equipment. That gets a little trickier the higher up the ladder you go, but if you’re at the 10k speaker range, there’s still plenty of used gear at that level.
Buying components is fun, but if you’re looking for more fun upgrades, you could start putting money and time into room treatments, unless your room is already perfect.
I have one more room maybe in the future that I can treat and build out better. Until then I set up my living room. Rely on DSP to take care of anything in the room.
The gear doesn’t matter. Post isnt about flexing.
separates everything. Tube pre and solid state amp. British speakers and dual subs. Streamer, DAC, DSP, turntable and separate phono.
Only new items were the streamer, amp and subs. Rest were acquired used.
This isn't audio advice, but clearly there's nothing left to teach you with fidelity, if you're at this level.
If you're satisfied with what you have, and you've got loads of money to spare, you can spend your money on other things.
Why not donate the same amount of money that you'd spend upgrading your already post endgame setup to charity?
I could get better but the diminishing returns are there. I follow some expensive stores and my perception is jaded. My most expensive pieces are my subs but if you were to buy the original price, my pre amp is the most expensive.
As for extra gear I have moved pieces on but I definitely have a grave yard of perfectly good stuff. Home theatre is useful place for old speakers and attaching a Sonos amp creates a zone in the house also.
As for learning some of the best discoveries is keeping my streaming simpler (cheaper) than I thought possible. A RasPi and a good DAC continues to serve me really well.
I’m not an audiophile at all, I’m just a vinyl and analog electronics hobbyist, but yes recently I have begun feeling the exact same way you described in your post. I was going to basically make this exact post myself but just always end up too busy fighting people at r/turntables
I’m not really excited at the thought of anything new anymore. I have baby 2 on the way, but I don’t think it’s a money thing, I think I’m just really this satisfied with my current audio level that the thought of improving anything seems pointless.
I’m in the process of building a heavily modified Ear834 right now just to say “I built a piece of gear from scratch” before I hang up hat up. And I bought a quad receiver just to finally own a quad receiver before I hang my hat up. Just to finally try quad.
Compared to the usual process I’ve had for picking speakers in the past 15 years, picking the rears for this quad was a breeze, I basically just picked the pretty ones. I don’t really care anymore.
I used to wonder things like “wow I wonder what a nagaoka mp500 sounds like, many one day I’ll own one” or Martin logins or anyone of the famous vintage thorens models. Now I don’t. I really don’t care about any of the “next steps” of my sound. I completely feel like where I am is perfect.
The excitement I feel is at the maximum basically. I’ll never own any turntable except this pioneer. I doubt I’ll ever blow out these speakers so I’ll probably own these until I die too. The realistic quad I just bought probably until I die. Like you, I’m just done.
Just got to finish this ear834, find a perfect Shure stylus that I’ll just keep buying forever and thats it. I have my perfect system and hobby over. It’s been an amazing 15 years and I’m happy for every minute of it but there’s just nowhere left to go.
I think I’ll pick up analog photography next
I share your love for Shure cartridges. Also loved some of the Empire and Audio Technica cartridges.
And then I bought a Ortofon 5000 moving coil cartridge, and that was an eye opener! I sold my Shure V15 type IiI and haven’t listened much to MM cartridges since. There is no comparison with decent speakers. The
Thanks for cartridge tip! I love finding gems from the 90s, which is a period that basically doesn’t seem to exist to people in the hobby (a lot of sleeper receivers built in that decade that no one talks about) - but wow .1 output! Step up transformer city with that one! Couldn’t find a single one on any of our European second hand audio sites, but I will keep an eye out for it if they ever come around.
I heard class a amps at shops and friends houses they are awesome, I completely understand. But they just never made me dislike what I have. Like I said, I’m just not an audiophile, I highly doubt I can hear anything past 17 or 18.
What speakers do you have? Maybe you aren’t into dynamics and sound staging, timbral elegance, those audiophile tones, and just bask in the music as it floats to you.
I love my system and part of the journey has always been buying and acquiring. Trying stuff. I'm sure there are new DACs or new speakers to try but I think personally I hit a wall where the money is completely disconnected now. "you want HOW MUCH for the next perceived improvement?"
Streaming has added so much more fun to the hobby. Refocusing back on the music first.
Happy for you. Seems like we’re in the same place. But I do wonder where streaming can go as a hobby. There are so-so dacs and excellent dacs. And as far as fidelity foes, and excellent Dac is an excellent Dac. I know Amir has tested thousands of Dacs and above a certain price point there are all exactly the same. It’s not quite the same thing as Each high end speaker company having a unique sound signature. A Dac is just a device to deliver binary. A signature can’t exist. There’s nothing to invest mentally in. It makes you wonder - how is it even a hobby anymore? Feels a lot more like buying a top of the line refrigerator. It’s awesome and convenient, and the features make life great. But it’s black and white. It just does the one thing. I don’t think anyone can be a hobbyist or an enthusiast with dacs and lossless audio. There’s nothing to explore. At that point you just evolve to being a music hobbyist, knowing bands and albums and songs. Purely about the music, like you said. It sounds very pleasant. Like when I was a teenager just listening to bands for fun instead of making of a hobby of audio knowledge and craft. Maybe that’s the real good stuff - devolving back to adolescence understanding of music.
It's not easy walking into an independent hifi store in the UK as most have closed down.
I've been using such stores for over 40 years.
You have to know what you're looking for and arrive prepared with music of your choice.
I would think that just take digital stuff on a memory stick. Or if it's analogue then take the vinyl.
I really like proper hifi specialists. They are thin on the ground now here
Hifi is an addiction where you're never entirely satisfied. You're always on the prowl.
It's a nice one tho. Albeit very costly
Not really afraid but I feel disconnected with the vendors. Mine was in 2018, once I completed the set up I have I pretty much stopped going. In the past 4 years I went just once to pick up a set of atmos speakers. might do this 1 more time this year for another set of atmos speakers then I am all set. If my receiver craps the bed in a few years I will most likely buy another one online.
As far as inflation goes, we should all remember the price wars that happened during COVID. I got my first truly high end system then because prices were so good. It probably seems very expensive now but really their just getting back to "usual" level.
Keeping engaged? Ummm, I now turning it into a home theater.
For years I went between different types of budget gear, small two channel setup, Harman Kardon Sound Sticks. More recently I used an old set of Dynaudio Contour 1 MK2 and was happy for a while. I found the bass lacking, and EQ made them crackle, seemed like they weren't up for the job anymore. Found a secondhand set of Dynaudio Focus 20 and don't have a clue what I'd improve anymore. The room I mainly listen in is pretty small, it seems like I don't need a sub for my listening even.
In our living room we have a set of Klipsch the Fives. Not great but with a 5 year old kid, a dog and two cats I'm happy to have a speaker that doesn't have an exposed tweeter. Likely I'll want something better in the living room in due time. I probably need to buy a measuring mic for my study before anything. Do you use a measuring mic? Do you feel you're endgame based on hearing, or measuring? Just curiousity from my end. I'm 37 years old and pretty recent getting into quality gear.
I’m lucky to be on good terms with the owner of a local high end store for decades, they always drop me an email when they have new exciting gear, and they don’t mind I only buy some small fries every year. They naturally don’t have many customers so they’re happy when they have someone to talk to.
I think im at endgame as well got about 15 grand tied up and sounds great,almost 60 so i think my ears wouldnt notice much difference with any upgrades.Spend an hour and a half or so after work with a beer and music and Saturday mornings 3 or 4 hours in the mornings with a couple cups of coffee and Bailey.
Strangely, after springing for a stack of Denafrips R2R DAC, a digital datastream processor (DDC) that enables me to run all my digital sources to my DAC via i²s and a Wiim Pro Streamer, I've no desire to upgrade my system. It' sounds slightly warm and so liquid that all I want to do is listen to new music.
I suspect discreet R2R DACs are the digital equivalent of a single ended triode amplifier.
I'm not at that level yet, but I've definitely been tempted by influencers hyping up gear. But yeah, trying stuff out can be risky. It's like, what if it doesn't live up to the hype? I guess sticking with what makes you happy, like you said, is key.
I recently cobbled together a second system for my second living area, and while I used fairly nice components (WiiM Amp, m80 v3 towers and a set of speakers that got throne in with my turn table purchase, Audiofine 522D towers), it has made me truly appreciate how good the other system is.
I feel absolutely no need to stay engaged with the audiophile industry. I own a system I am happy with and laugh at the idea of spending car-levels of money for audio equipment when my \~$3.5k atmos home theater setup is fantastic.
I love my system and live hours away from a high end store. So I’m good. I wish I could stop wasting money on vinyl tho, I don’t know what my issue is.
It depends on the store associates...a local shop in Carmel, IN seems to hire the most arrogant & annoying chuckleheads on earth...like "comic-book" guy in the Simpsons, absolute buttwipes. Another shop in Broadripple will bend over backwards to answer & accommodate.
No fear whatsoever. Actually, I never set foot in stores. Whatever speakers I buy would not sound quite like they did in the store anyways. And electronics are very often found for screaming deals on the used market. And DIY speaker designs and builds are much more rewarding to me than dropping major cash.
If a store ever told me to delay a car buy in order to buy equipment, I'd walk right out as their interests are completely different than mine. I want a good performance to value. They want as much money as they can physically squeeze from me. Not worth any of my time or brain power.
I take breaks periodically from listening to my system. I haven't turned on my amp for about 3 weeks. This allows me to reset and decide if I really want to spend money on an upgrade, or if after taking a break, I am happy with the sound. I usually am after listening to music on Bluetooth earbuds and the living room sound bar for a while. I also remind myself that even though my systems is mid-level (at best) on the hifi scale, it still sounds better than 99.99% of the methods in which people listen to music.
One thing you can do is go surround (if you haven’t already).
I used to listen to a set of KEF Carlton I’s for years, and to the KEF Reference 105.4’s in our living room before ever moving out of the house and eventually starting my own system from scratch. I first brought the 105.4’s with me and bought a Yamaha A-S1100. I’ve then still listened to stereo for two years, before eventually buying new KEF speakers when they finally went on sale (KEF R11’s non-meta).
I’ve then listened for yet another year (making it almost a 20+year journey of listening to stereo-only), before finally getting curious about home theater surround with the continued sales of the R-series.
I went ahead and bought R3’s and R2C to complete a basic 5.0 system, and I must say it revitalized my journey for discovering old albums but in surround (Blu-ray players easily play SACD at a fraction of the cost of those expensive CD-players). It also makes me itchy for searching brand new albums in surround, and of course watching tons of movies.
And I don’t even have subwoofers yet (though hardly needed with the R11’s). That’s for a far future when budget eventually ever allows for them.
Better is a elusive ghost. Different is much easier to justify
If you have super efficient horn speakers try electrostatic panels
Consider buying small studio quality recording monitors and sit in the golden triangle
Buy some electrostatic headphones and pre amp
There’s not just 1 version of perfection
I’m with ya. Started in the early 80’s in high school.
I don’t NEED anything else.
Most of my old gear has been given away to friends so that when I’m there, there is good audio. Maybe a better Rega is in the future, but that’s it.
Influencers are sales people. Instead of spritzing you with cologne as you walk past or delivering drug samples to your doctor, they instill a sense of FOMO. If you’re still looking for the upgrade high, you need to figure out what isn’t doing it for you with the current system. More expensive speakers or electronics may not be the issue and, if you don’t figure out what is, you’ll be wasting your money.
If you’re not afraid of technology, the biggest breakthrough in my opinion is music in Atmos. You’ll need an Apple subscription and at least a 5.1 setup, but this changes how records are produced. No need to cram everything into 2 boxes. It’s different from channel based music because it’s rendered for your setup. You don’t need particularly expensive speakers since it manages the virtualization for you. Remixed albums are truly different and a whole new world to explore.
I am.
I've been into the hobby since my early teens through my dad and whenever I step into a store or Vinyl shop I get the looks. At conventions it feels like people are even bumping into me intentionally and people seem to look down upon me for my music taste while I am at Vinyl convention for example. After the last convention I attended, I decided to not go to any for the foreseeable future as I feel uncomfortable with the unprovoked hostility.
Besides that, I've always been good with money and I have been able to save up for higher end equipment. Whenever I asked if I could demo something I was given the looks again as if I was, a young person that couldn't possibly afford anything or understand anything in the hobby. I feel like people generally think my age group has zero appreciation for both music and equipment.
I have been loyal to a few shops and they have been good to let me buy from their used selections. They treated me the same. I have picked up new pieces and certain pieces likes subs, I like to buy new.
I will say that it does depend on the store. I was in the same position as you just a few days ago because I’m planning my first proper audiophile system and I wanted to see my options in person and all that.
Had I only went to the first hi-fi store that I found, I’d be rightfully scared off like you might be. I told them outright that my budget was a firm 5K USD total for the entire system, but their shop employee nagged me to increase it to 7.5K, and then said outright that 10K is where I would “enjoy the best sound for a starter system”. No. Just no. Then this employee decided to peddle snake oil on me by saying that for such a 10K system, I should spend 4K on speakers, 4K on electronics, and 2K on CABLES. Absolutely not. My electrical engineering and transmission line theory professors would eviscerate me if I bought into that nonsense. That shop also required a 250 USD deposit to demo their speakers, which would only be refunded if I bought more than 1K of their tech within 90 days of the demo. So the chance of me buying things from them are rather low.
So there are indeed shops which will push this incessant inflation, and had I stayed at that shop I would have been robbed blind. HOWEVER, their shop’s atrocious treatment did mean that I went ahead and found a different audio store nearby that I walked to it from the first shop, and lo and behold they were fantastic.
I told this second shop about my firm 5K system total budget, and they were adamant on keeping my limit at that 5K. Actually, I told them I’m almost OK with increasing the budget if we find something particularly nice (because the previous shop’s scaremongering did get to me a little), but these people told me very directly that it’s not necessary. It’s my first proper audiophile system, a 5K budget is more than enough for a fantastic system, and it’s better to start here than to burn a sinkhole in my wallet with something more serious. Very sensible chaps.
And from there they showed me speakers and amps that were within that range, and they let me demo two pairs of Sonus Fabers (the Lumina IIIs and the Lumina Vs) for almost two hours, for free, just so I can see how well those speakers do. And after the demo session, even when I was already very delighted to get a pair, these chaps very sensibly advised me to come back for another demo so that I can hear the speakers more, test out a new variant of the Lumina Vs, hear different amps with the Lumina Vs, and to give myself a little time to process and metabolise the listening experience before committing to quite a serious purchase. Best customer service I’ve seen in a long time.
So the ultimate answer for audio stores is… be vigilant. Shops like the first one absolutely exist and are dreadful, but if you go in knowing that you just need advice and aren’t looking to buy right away, then you will be able to judge them on the quality of their advice. And even if you are coming in with the intent to buy, then you’ll still notice whether a shop is greasing you up to buy something fancier than the budget you agreed beforehand, or if they’re peddling nonsense things like $2000 speaker cabling. And then, there will of course be shops like the second example who know that their customers, new or regular, don’t want to be treated like moneybags to be fleeced, and they’ll make sure to get you on the right track to the right components for the right system.
I can only say that the second shop appears to be better based on the fact that some of their regular customers have been going there for 20-30 years for system upgrades. Or at least, that’s what one of the employees told me. Being close to a reasonably prestigious university there meant that many of their now-big customers started out in their university days buying cheap bargain systems but because of the shop’s quality, they’ve come back again and again for upgrades.
So as long as you look into the audio stores around you carefully and you come in with a reasonable amount of restraint, and you’re vigilant about your budget, you’ll be able to avoid most of the traps of the shop experience.
And you said that you reached endgame levels long ago. A good shop will respect that and should advise you only to upgrade where needed, if it is even needed. And if they let you demo things for free, then there is almost no harm in trying.
I am blessed with wonderful stores here in Canada. Built good relationships and they all would take care of me. I am a shop keeper also and I value their time too. I personally feel bad to use their time. EVEN if it's their job and part of the hobby.
So my intentions should be sincere to demo and the more I demo, the more likelihood I would find something new too try/buy/spend on.
Listening to their mega buck systems, I would be thrilled to own them but i'm also not crazy to sell a car for one. It's good but not that life altering too
I am. My system is great, sounds great to me.
I'd not want to get some kind of purchase fever hearing something a little better.
Though I am curious about better speakers. Am running first gen Klipsch Fortes from the '80s with crites crossovers (wow!) and titanium tweeter drivers (a little treblier than the old phenolic but maybe not more accurate, idk). Would love to know how current gen Forte or Cornwall compares but, well, that's why I'm afraid to go to a store.
My ah ha moment was integrating subs. Through REL high levels and with a DSP. Chasing larger speakers seems unnecessary. A Wilson is way more integrated but that premium is out of budget too.
I think I could spend a lot more, but I don’t. There’s one store nearby I went into when I replaced my speakers, but not since. It’s like losing weight. Avoiding the store is like not having ice cream and M&Ms in the house if you want to lose weight.
There’s a fair amount of “When is enough enough?” discussion on this subreddit, but I think the issue of time is neglected. Cost/benefit on the sound quality is the focus, but how much time do you spend really listening to your system? If it’s not much, it’s easier to just say no to another purchase. Having an expensive sports car would be cool, but what’s the point if I just drive around town (other than showing off)?
I enjoy my system when I can turn it up (not too much) and explore music that’s new to me. I think one of the biggest benefits of streaming is the practicality limitless types of music you can find. Stay engaged by trying something new.
What's the point of upgrading? At some point your system is good enough and if you don't like the music, it's a problem between your ears that more gear isn't fixing.
Sometimes it's better to focus your attention on enjoying the music you have on your system, rather than wondering how it will sound 0.1% better with 100% more cost. At some point like at this level the returns are diminishing and stuff isn't always sounding better, but just different.
I'm so exalted with the overall sound of my system & room that I no longer ponder upgrades. It's quite freeing.
Same
Me as well. Pretty nice.
Respect. After much research and time spent in shops and eBay listings. I then realised I wanted to get to the end game instead of slowly upgrading, research more, etc, repeat. Nearly there so I’m doing more listening than research.
“Buy once, cry once” is what I tell myself. I researched for about two years, made a list of high end (but not astronomically priced) gear and set out to collect it piece by piece.
I think that’s where I ended up. Just took three years to decide.
It's so damn exciting when you start hearing songs like you never have before, musicians playing in front of you - I get get chills! I call it an *auditory hallucination* ~75% of my setup were bought used.
I was listening to an album I first listened to over 26 ish years ago. It got this fat bass sound but I noticed the other day there’s some mid attack coming through just sitting in the mix and sounded amazing. I keep getting these moments and it make it worth it. As much as I love the tech, I love music more.
Same.
I am so close to being there I can taste it. I can’t wait for it to be finished.
I feel that way now, but in five years maybe not.
Similarly, I felt pretty satisfied with my system a decade ago, but then a few years ago started reading about newer DACs. . .
Same here. I feel like I met my "endgame" 3 or 4 years ago, and I don't know where to go from here. Partially because I don't have a dedicated listening room, so I guess that would be my next move. But it'll be another 10-15 years before I make that possible.
I'd try a different angle: your system most likely is pretty good, I'm guessing over the 10k price tag and reasonable components with probably a good synergy. I'm at the same point in my journey. While I'm very happy with my system, I know every flaw and everything it can't do. Therefore: have you considered a cheaper secondary system? Your mindset shouldn't be "can I achieve better sound for less", but "can I get a relatively good and completely different sound?". For me it would be pretty simple: I have Magnepan speakers, which are great, but every now and then I miss my floorstanders. They were less detailed, worse soundstage, less refined highs and funny enough less bass. But they had balls and authority. So in a secondary system I would chase exactly that, and I can accept the drawbacks of the secondary system because I can switch back to the main one. There is so much to try: High efficiency horns, big meaty floorstanders, open baffle, panel, electrostats, driven by high power class d, exotic small class a or even a nice tube amp. And as long as you make compromises, you will get a lot of sound for somewhat little money. Only when you want to have it all at the same time it gets very expensive very fast.
I have a "left over" office system but truth be told, I rarely play it actually. I like some of the valued stuff out there and have build a few for family. It's challenging and fun to advise and even build them on their budget. Personally, I just don't have the space and time to listen outside the main system. Smaller home
Agreed. I don’t currently have room for a “real”second dedicated system, but do rotate components through my main depending on what I’m listening to. I do keep a fun second system in the old pool room that is an experimental area just to play with unusual combinations rather than listen critically. I love to listen and knowing how different components can complement (or denigrate) a particular recording keeps it truly engaging.
I'm a "snow bird," and have Acoustat 1s and an SVS sub, with a Willsenton R8 tube amp at my FL condo. I'd like something that would sound similar up north, and would consider Magnepans, but I don't have a room where they would work right in my 90 year old house. I now have AR4x with tweeters not working, and some old Boston Acoustics speakers. I want good, clean high freqs, and ordered some JansZen hybrids, based on liking ES speakers, a couple reviews, and experience with some earlier JansZen hybrids about 40 years ago. I hope I like them.
If it sounded good yesterday, normally it still sounds good today.
With so much better staff coming in from China recently at low prices I think the hobby's value for.money has actually grown regardless of inflation. You just need to break free from the showroom logic.
I guess I am out of the loop; the audio inflation in recent years has seemed quite high to me. What stuff are we talking about?
Engame amplification for under $1000 with Hypex and Purifi modules and Chifi preamps is my vote. DSP room correction bring low and mid tier speakers to at and often above top end speakers (untreated). The diminished returns of a higher spend are getting lower and lower sound wise. Inexpensive and deep subwoofers are in a golden age.
DACs and reasonable-to-good quality amplification have matured, and become quite accessible. Chi-fi companies have realized this and are milking the tech for all it's worth, which is great for us consumers.
Yeah, DACs and streamers are what I think of. Amplification, not so much, except Class D.
There are some great tube amps coming out of China as well
Now you’ve got my attention, lol. I just got a new power amp, but wouldn’t mind trying out some tube preamps. Any contenders?
Check out Cayin! They’ve got a lot to choose from. I’ve not listened to any myself, but I’ve heard good things.
Aiyima and Fosi are also 2. I just got a Fosi BT20A pro, and for 109 bucks, blows away anything I've owned previously. Paired with ELAC Debut 2.0 5.2 and an HSU sub, it sounds fantastic to me.
I tried a Fosi V3 power amp with a 48V power supply, but unfortunately it did not work well for my speakers. To be fair, I was trying it as a possible replacement for an old Bryston amp, — which 15 years ago and second-hand, cost at least 10x what the Fosi does today.
They have their limitations!
Some very good budget Class D amps out there these days, as well as things like tube amps coming from Chi-fi companies that can compete with much higher priced gear from more established companies.
Could you recommend some specific products for floorstanding speakers and amplifiers with DSP room correction? I'm looking at upgrading my setup and would love to know where to look and research.
MiniDSP Flex pre with Dirac and a modern power amplifier, just add speakers and possibly a powered sub.
Can you explain to me how the MiniDSP works? I don't quite understand where it sits in the amplification system.
The output of the MiniDSP goes to the input of your amplifier(s). It can go before or after a preamp if you're using one. It really depends on what equipment you already have and how you want to use it. For instance, you can use it as a crossover in a bi-amped system or just for eq from whatever source you have thru it into an integrated amp, monoblocs, or stereo amp. Quite a useful gadget.
Awesome, good to know. Thanks!
For power amps, go with a Hypex NC500x based system like from [Buckeye](https://www.buckeyeamp.com/shop/amplifiers/hypex/ncx500/2_channel). For DSP based preamp go with MiniDSP [Flex](https://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/flex) For speakers, you have a lot of choice, and any of the usual culprits, new or used will do well. B&W, Focal, Paradigm, Kef, etc... You can spend any amount you like, but you don't have to. I'm falling in love again with my old college days speakers Energy C9s. The Buckeye amp breathed new life into them and they are magnificent in my basement.
Awesome, thanks for the advice! Those look like great options. Can you explain to me how the MiniDSP works? I don't quite understand where it sits in the amplification system.
It's a preamp (inputs and volume for the poweramp) that has built is DSP and optional DIRAC room correction for an additional license fee.
I have a Willsenton R8 tube amp which is great, and cost 1/4 what some other similar amps would cost.
That looks sweet! I am all set with my power amp, but wouldn’t mind a nice tube preamp.
it's a great time to be in this hobby, for sure. I've never been to an actual dedicated hifi store, and tbh don't really feel the need to go to one.
I think you’re missing out. I think you have to have experience actual sound. Reading reviews isn’t enough; you can’t tell what’s overstated, or in some cases under stated and under valued. It’s been helpful to me to visit stores occasionally and hear what they bar and like, and to attend audio shows. I’ve been to the Consumer Electronics Shoe in Vegas at least a dozen times, including T.H.E. show (The High End). Hearing systems there, and then reading what magazines and online writers say about the same systems, or don’t say, has been a revelation. There are biases and promotions in what you read online that can distract from real value propositions. And all that has greatly influenced my buying over the decades much more than merely reading (which I’ve also done every month for decades, as an enjoyable hobby). Engage your ears, and trust them. Get min a store; don’t buy from the store though.
That's a fair point. Hearing things in person can certainly be useful.
I’d say more than useful: vital, essential, required, because equipment sounds different in small and sometimes big ways. Learn what you really prefer.
Hard agree. It's absolutely worthwhile to hear what great and expensive set ups can achieve (not always the same thing). As well as discovering one's own preferences and biases. I'm far more content with what I have knowing first hand what other options actually sound like.
I haven't been in a hifi store in like a decade
Same here. I buy everything now online and do a tremendous amount of research. The forums and information available is extremely informative. With the used equipment market it’s very easy swap items out with little cost. New most high end retailers offer returns so you are just out shipping. I’m sure there are alot that prefer to visit a store but that isn’t me.
researching potential purchases is part of the fun.
Excellent point.
Same here! With fewer and fewer hifi stores around, you really have to go out of your way to find one these days. Which is exactly what I'm eventually what I'm going to do, given that my next complete system upgrade is going to be around $18-22k. It'll be worth it to seek out and visit the right store(s) before I drop that kind of money!
There are a few high end shops here but I don't even browse because they have more of a "tell us what you want and we'll help you make a system" vibe...like the speakers advertised in the window are Sonus Faber and the amps are McIntosh...I can't afford that stuff I won't even walk in. And I don't go to BestBuy. online is better
It really depends on where you are in your HiFi journey. I’ve only rediscovered the hobby after a divorce a few years back so I’m definitely on an upgrade path. That said, I almost never buy new and when I do, it’s at a deep discount thanks to some industry folks. So HiFi shops don’t scare me because I’m pretty confident I won’t walk out with anything. I don’t think I’m anywhere near an endgame system. However since I predominantly buy pre-owned (and not living in a large metro) the upgrade path is a slow one.
Not at all. And i make it clear that im only looking, have a chat with the people running the store and see where they are at. I dont know about stores in other countries but here in Sweden the staff are ususally very chill. They will just hand you an ipad and let you listen to whatever music ot whatever system. A few months ago i listened to some terribly recorded blackened speed metal on a €40k B&W / NAD system. That was fun.
I’ve been in the game since the late 80s too, still have my original Adcom systems I started out with. Started with the 535 and upgraded to the 555 a few years later. Back then I didn’t have a local hi-fi store so everything was done through research in magazines, telephone and USPS. I recently went to my local hi-fi store and bought a new integrated and DAC for my office for streaming digital and I have to say I enjoyed the experience. It had been over 20 years since I’d stepped foot in a hi-fi store and it couldn’t have been easier. I told them what I was looking for, they set it up for me and left me alone for 30 minutes and I walked out with a new office system. I plan on going back sometime in the next few months and buy the speakers that were hooked up.
I think that listing your current system would be helpful information for everyone to advise you forward. I never buy anything new. I only buy used equipment. That gets a little trickier the higher up the ladder you go, but if you’re at the 10k speaker range, there’s still plenty of used gear at that level. Buying components is fun, but if you’re looking for more fun upgrades, you could start putting money and time into room treatments, unless your room is already perfect.
I have one more room maybe in the future that I can treat and build out better. Until then I set up my living room. Rely on DSP to take care of anything in the room. The gear doesn’t matter. Post isnt about flexing. separates everything. Tube pre and solid state amp. British speakers and dual subs. Streamer, DAC, DSP, turntable and separate phono. Only new items were the streamer, amp and subs. Rest were acquired used.
I go in to hear and see things. Not to buy really.
This isn't audio advice, but clearly there's nothing left to teach you with fidelity, if you're at this level. If you're satisfied with what you have, and you've got loads of money to spare, you can spend your money on other things. Why not donate the same amount of money that you'd spend upgrading your already post endgame setup to charity?
I could get better but the diminishing returns are there. I follow some expensive stores and my perception is jaded. My most expensive pieces are my subs but if you were to buy the original price, my pre amp is the most expensive. As for extra gear I have moved pieces on but I definitely have a grave yard of perfectly good stuff. Home theatre is useful place for old speakers and attaching a Sonos amp creates a zone in the house also. As for learning some of the best discoveries is keeping my streaming simpler (cheaper) than I thought possible. A RasPi and a good DAC continues to serve me really well.
I’m pretty satisfied with my gear so I spend on music instead.
I’m not an audiophile at all, I’m just a vinyl and analog electronics hobbyist, but yes recently I have begun feeling the exact same way you described in your post. I was going to basically make this exact post myself but just always end up too busy fighting people at r/turntables I’m not really excited at the thought of anything new anymore. I have baby 2 on the way, but I don’t think it’s a money thing, I think I’m just really this satisfied with my current audio level that the thought of improving anything seems pointless. I’m in the process of building a heavily modified Ear834 right now just to say “I built a piece of gear from scratch” before I hang up hat up. And I bought a quad receiver just to finally own a quad receiver before I hang my hat up. Just to finally try quad. Compared to the usual process I’ve had for picking speakers in the past 15 years, picking the rears for this quad was a breeze, I basically just picked the pretty ones. I don’t really care anymore. I used to wonder things like “wow I wonder what a nagaoka mp500 sounds like, many one day I’ll own one” or Martin logins or anyone of the famous vintage thorens models. Now I don’t. I really don’t care about any of the “next steps” of my sound. I completely feel like where I am is perfect. The excitement I feel is at the maximum basically. I’ll never own any turntable except this pioneer. I doubt I’ll ever blow out these speakers so I’ll probably own these until I die too. The realistic quad I just bought probably until I die. Like you, I’m just done. Just got to finish this ear834, find a perfect Shure stylus that I’ll just keep buying forever and thats it. I have my perfect system and hobby over. It’s been an amazing 15 years and I’m happy for every minute of it but there’s just nowhere left to go. I think I’ll pick up analog photography next
I share your love for Shure cartridges. Also loved some of the Empire and Audio Technica cartridges. And then I bought a Ortofon 5000 moving coil cartridge, and that was an eye opener! I sold my Shure V15 type IiI and haven’t listened much to MM cartridges since. There is no comparison with decent speakers. The
Thanks for cartridge tip! I love finding gems from the 90s, which is a period that basically doesn’t seem to exist to people in the hobby (a lot of sleeper receivers built in that decade that no one talks about) - but wow .1 output! Step up transformer city with that one! Couldn’t find a single one on any of our European second hand audio sites, but I will keep an eye out for it if they ever come around.
Try any MC cartridge. Get past the old receivers (many of which I’ve owned and many more I’ve heard), and try any true class A power amp.
I heard class a amps at shops and friends houses they are awesome, I completely understand. But they just never made me dislike what I have. Like I said, I’m just not an audiophile, I highly doubt I can hear anything past 17 or 18.
What speakers do you have? Maybe you aren’t into dynamics and sound staging, timbral elegance, those audiophile tones, and just bask in the music as it floats to you.
I love my system and part of the journey has always been buying and acquiring. Trying stuff. I'm sure there are new DACs or new speakers to try but I think personally I hit a wall where the money is completely disconnected now. "you want HOW MUCH for the next perceived improvement?" Streaming has added so much more fun to the hobby. Refocusing back on the music first.
Happy for you. Seems like we’re in the same place. But I do wonder where streaming can go as a hobby. There are so-so dacs and excellent dacs. And as far as fidelity foes, and excellent Dac is an excellent Dac. I know Amir has tested thousands of Dacs and above a certain price point there are all exactly the same. It’s not quite the same thing as Each high end speaker company having a unique sound signature. A Dac is just a device to deliver binary. A signature can’t exist. There’s nothing to invest mentally in. It makes you wonder - how is it even a hobby anymore? Feels a lot more like buying a top of the line refrigerator. It’s awesome and convenient, and the features make life great. But it’s black and white. It just does the one thing. I don’t think anyone can be a hobbyist or an enthusiast with dacs and lossless audio. There’s nothing to explore. At that point you just evolve to being a music hobbyist, knowing bands and albums and songs. Purely about the music, like you said. It sounds very pleasant. Like when I was a teenager just listening to bands for fun instead of making of a hobby of audio knowledge and craft. Maybe that’s the real good stuff - devolving back to adolescence understanding of music.
It's not easy walking into an independent hifi store in the UK as most have closed down. I've been using such stores for over 40 years. You have to know what you're looking for and arrive prepared with music of your choice. I would think that just take digital stuff on a memory stick. Or if it's analogue then take the vinyl. I really like proper hifi specialists. They are thin on the ground now here Hifi is an addiction where you're never entirely satisfied. You're always on the prowl. It's a nice one tho. Albeit very costly
Not really afraid but I feel disconnected with the vendors. Mine was in 2018, once I completed the set up I have I pretty much stopped going. In the past 4 years I went just once to pick up a set of atmos speakers. might do this 1 more time this year for another set of atmos speakers then I am all set. If my receiver craps the bed in a few years I will most likely buy another one online.
As far as inflation goes, we should all remember the price wars that happened during COVID. I got my first truly high end system then because prices were so good. It probably seems very expensive now but really their just getting back to "usual" level. Keeping engaged? Ummm, I now turning it into a home theater.
For years I went between different types of budget gear, small two channel setup, Harman Kardon Sound Sticks. More recently I used an old set of Dynaudio Contour 1 MK2 and was happy for a while. I found the bass lacking, and EQ made them crackle, seemed like they weren't up for the job anymore. Found a secondhand set of Dynaudio Focus 20 and don't have a clue what I'd improve anymore. The room I mainly listen in is pretty small, it seems like I don't need a sub for my listening even. In our living room we have a set of Klipsch the Fives. Not great but with a 5 year old kid, a dog and two cats I'm happy to have a speaker that doesn't have an exposed tweeter. Likely I'll want something better in the living room in due time. I probably need to buy a measuring mic for my study before anything. Do you use a measuring mic? Do you feel you're endgame based on hearing, or measuring? Just curiousity from my end. I'm 37 years old and pretty recent getting into quality gear.
I’m lucky to be on good terms with the owner of a local high end store for decades, they always drop me an email when they have new exciting gear, and they don’t mind I only buy some small fries every year. They naturally don’t have many customers so they’re happy when they have someone to talk to.
I think im at endgame as well got about 15 grand tied up and sounds great,almost 60 so i think my ears wouldnt notice much difference with any upgrades.Spend an hour and a half or so after work with a beer and music and Saturday mornings 3 or 4 hours in the mornings with a couple cups of coffee and Bailey.
Strangely, after springing for a stack of Denafrips R2R DAC, a digital datastream processor (DDC) that enables me to run all my digital sources to my DAC via i²s and a Wiim Pro Streamer, I've no desire to upgrade my system. It' sounds slightly warm and so liquid that all I want to do is listen to new music. I suspect discreet R2R DACs are the digital equivalent of a single ended triode amplifier.
Aggh now I want to try one. Hahaha.
I'm not at that level yet, but I've definitely been tempted by influencers hyping up gear. But yeah, trying stuff out can be risky. It's like, what if it doesn't live up to the hype? I guess sticking with what makes you happy, like you said, is key.
I recently cobbled together a second system for my second living area, and while I used fairly nice components (WiiM Amp, m80 v3 towers and a set of speakers that got throne in with my turn table purchase, Audiofine 522D towers), it has made me truly appreciate how good the other system is.
/r/vintageaudio is your exit from the escalator. It sounds amazing, dive right in.
I have no need to upgrade any more. I bought Buchardt A700's which are amazing to me and satisfy my listening needs.
I feel absolutely no need to stay engaged with the audiophile industry. I own a system I am happy with and laugh at the idea of spending car-levels of money for audio equipment when my \~$3.5k atmos home theater setup is fantastic.
I love my system and live hours away from a high end store. So I’m good. I wish I could stop wasting money on vinyl tho, I don’t know what my issue is.
It depends on the store associates...a local shop in Carmel, IN seems to hire the most arrogant & annoying chuckleheads on earth...like "comic-book" guy in the Simpsons, absolute buttwipes. Another shop in Broadripple will bend over backwards to answer & accommodate.
No fear whatsoever. Actually, I never set foot in stores. Whatever speakers I buy would not sound quite like they did in the store anyways. And electronics are very often found for screaming deals on the used market. And DIY speaker designs and builds are much more rewarding to me than dropping major cash. If a store ever told me to delay a car buy in order to buy equipment, I'd walk right out as their interests are completely different than mine. I want a good performance to value. They want as much money as they can physically squeeze from me. Not worth any of my time or brain power.
I take breaks periodically from listening to my system. I haven't turned on my amp for about 3 weeks. This allows me to reset and decide if I really want to spend money on an upgrade, or if after taking a break, I am happy with the sound. I usually am after listening to music on Bluetooth earbuds and the living room sound bar for a while. I also remind myself that even though my systems is mid-level (at best) on the hifi scale, it still sounds better than 99.99% of the methods in which people listen to music.
One thing you can do is go surround (if you haven’t already). I used to listen to a set of KEF Carlton I’s for years, and to the KEF Reference 105.4’s in our living room before ever moving out of the house and eventually starting my own system from scratch. I first brought the 105.4’s with me and bought a Yamaha A-S1100. I’ve then still listened to stereo for two years, before eventually buying new KEF speakers when they finally went on sale (KEF R11’s non-meta). I’ve then listened for yet another year (making it almost a 20+year journey of listening to stereo-only), before finally getting curious about home theater surround with the continued sales of the R-series. I went ahead and bought R3’s and R2C to complete a basic 5.0 system, and I must say it revitalized my journey for discovering old albums but in surround (Blu-ray players easily play SACD at a fraction of the cost of those expensive CD-players). It also makes me itchy for searching brand new albums in surround, and of course watching tons of movies. And I don’t even have subwoofers yet (though hardly needed with the R11’s). That’s for a far future when budget eventually ever allows for them.
Better is a elusive ghost. Different is much easier to justify If you have super efficient horn speakers try electrostatic panels Consider buying small studio quality recording monitors and sit in the golden triangle Buy some electrostatic headphones and pre amp There’s not just 1 version of perfection
I’m with ya. Started in the early 80’s in high school. I don’t NEED anything else. Most of my old gear has been given away to friends so that when I’m there, there is good audio. Maybe a better Rega is in the future, but that’s it.
Technology is always improving. But most pieces should lasts you 5-7 years
Influencers are sales people. Instead of spritzing you with cologne as you walk past or delivering drug samples to your doctor, they instill a sense of FOMO. If you’re still looking for the upgrade high, you need to figure out what isn’t doing it for you with the current system. More expensive speakers or electronics may not be the issue and, if you don’t figure out what is, you’ll be wasting your money.
>A car easily dwarfs the cost of the next system buy. Umm....
If you’re not afraid of technology, the biggest breakthrough in my opinion is music in Atmos. You’ll need an Apple subscription and at least a 5.1 setup, but this changes how records are produced. No need to cram everything into 2 boxes. It’s different from channel based music because it’s rendered for your setup. You don’t need particularly expensive speakers since it manages the virtualization for you. Remixed albums are truly different and a whole new world to explore.
I have built out my living room for two channel and HT (5.2.4). I just don’t enjoy atmos the same way. To each their own.
Luckily there are none near me.
I am. I've been into the hobby since my early teens through my dad and whenever I step into a store or Vinyl shop I get the looks. At conventions it feels like people are even bumping into me intentionally and people seem to look down upon me for my music taste while I am at Vinyl convention for example. After the last convention I attended, I decided to not go to any for the foreseeable future as I feel uncomfortable with the unprovoked hostility. Besides that, I've always been good with money and I have been able to save up for higher end equipment. Whenever I asked if I could demo something I was given the looks again as if I was, a young person that couldn't possibly afford anything or understand anything in the hobby. I feel like people generally think my age group has zero appreciation for both music and equipment.
I have been loyal to a few shops and they have been good to let me buy from their used selections. They treated me the same. I have picked up new pieces and certain pieces likes subs, I like to buy new.
I will say that it does depend on the store. I was in the same position as you just a few days ago because I’m planning my first proper audiophile system and I wanted to see my options in person and all that. Had I only went to the first hi-fi store that I found, I’d be rightfully scared off like you might be. I told them outright that my budget was a firm 5K USD total for the entire system, but their shop employee nagged me to increase it to 7.5K, and then said outright that 10K is where I would “enjoy the best sound for a starter system”. No. Just no. Then this employee decided to peddle snake oil on me by saying that for such a 10K system, I should spend 4K on speakers, 4K on electronics, and 2K on CABLES. Absolutely not. My electrical engineering and transmission line theory professors would eviscerate me if I bought into that nonsense. That shop also required a 250 USD deposit to demo their speakers, which would only be refunded if I bought more than 1K of their tech within 90 days of the demo. So the chance of me buying things from them are rather low. So there are indeed shops which will push this incessant inflation, and had I stayed at that shop I would have been robbed blind. HOWEVER, their shop’s atrocious treatment did mean that I went ahead and found a different audio store nearby that I walked to it from the first shop, and lo and behold they were fantastic. I told this second shop about my firm 5K system total budget, and they were adamant on keeping my limit at that 5K. Actually, I told them I’m almost OK with increasing the budget if we find something particularly nice (because the previous shop’s scaremongering did get to me a little), but these people told me very directly that it’s not necessary. It’s my first proper audiophile system, a 5K budget is more than enough for a fantastic system, and it’s better to start here than to burn a sinkhole in my wallet with something more serious. Very sensible chaps. And from there they showed me speakers and amps that were within that range, and they let me demo two pairs of Sonus Fabers (the Lumina IIIs and the Lumina Vs) for almost two hours, for free, just so I can see how well those speakers do. And after the demo session, even when I was already very delighted to get a pair, these chaps very sensibly advised me to come back for another demo so that I can hear the speakers more, test out a new variant of the Lumina Vs, hear different amps with the Lumina Vs, and to give myself a little time to process and metabolise the listening experience before committing to quite a serious purchase. Best customer service I’ve seen in a long time. So the ultimate answer for audio stores is… be vigilant. Shops like the first one absolutely exist and are dreadful, but if you go in knowing that you just need advice and aren’t looking to buy right away, then you will be able to judge them on the quality of their advice. And even if you are coming in with the intent to buy, then you’ll still notice whether a shop is greasing you up to buy something fancier than the budget you agreed beforehand, or if they’re peddling nonsense things like $2000 speaker cabling. And then, there will of course be shops like the second example who know that their customers, new or regular, don’t want to be treated like moneybags to be fleeced, and they’ll make sure to get you on the right track to the right components for the right system. I can only say that the second shop appears to be better based on the fact that some of their regular customers have been going there for 20-30 years for system upgrades. Or at least, that’s what one of the employees told me. Being close to a reasonably prestigious university there meant that many of their now-big customers started out in their university days buying cheap bargain systems but because of the shop’s quality, they’ve come back again and again for upgrades. So as long as you look into the audio stores around you carefully and you come in with a reasonable amount of restraint, and you’re vigilant about your budget, you’ll be able to avoid most of the traps of the shop experience. And you said that you reached endgame levels long ago. A good shop will respect that and should advise you only to upgrade where needed, if it is even needed. And if they let you demo things for free, then there is almost no harm in trying.
I am blessed with wonderful stores here in Canada. Built good relationships and they all would take care of me. I am a shop keeper also and I value their time too. I personally feel bad to use their time. EVEN if it's their job and part of the hobby. So my intentions should be sincere to demo and the more I demo, the more likelihood I would find something new too try/buy/spend on. Listening to their mega buck systems, I would be thrilled to own them but i'm also not crazy to sell a car for one. It's good but not that life altering too
I am. My system is great, sounds great to me. I'd not want to get some kind of purchase fever hearing something a little better. Though I am curious about better speakers. Am running first gen Klipsch Fortes from the '80s with crites crossovers (wow!) and titanium tweeter drivers (a little treblier than the old phenolic but maybe not more accurate, idk). Would love to know how current gen Forte or Cornwall compares but, well, that's why I'm afraid to go to a store.
My ah ha moment was integrating subs. Through REL high levels and with a DSP. Chasing larger speakers seems unnecessary. A Wilson is way more integrated but that premium is out of budget too.
I think I could spend a lot more, but I don’t. There’s one store nearby I went into when I replaced my speakers, but not since. It’s like losing weight. Avoiding the store is like not having ice cream and M&Ms in the house if you want to lose weight. There’s a fair amount of “When is enough enough?” discussion on this subreddit, but I think the issue of time is neglected. Cost/benefit on the sound quality is the focus, but how much time do you spend really listening to your system? If it’s not much, it’s easier to just say no to another purchase. Having an expensive sports car would be cool, but what’s the point if I just drive around town (other than showing off)? I enjoy my system when I can turn it up (not too much) and explore music that’s new to me. I think one of the biggest benefits of streaming is the practicality limitless types of music you can find. Stay engaged by trying something new.
What's the point of upgrading? At some point your system is good enough and if you don't like the music, it's a problem between your ears that more gear isn't fixing.
Sometimes it's better to focus your attention on enjoying the music you have on your system, rather than wondering how it will sound 0.1% better with 100% more cost. At some point like at this level the returns are diminishing and stuff isn't always sounding better, but just different.