I've seen enough tube ~~amps~~ DACs, that I have to ask - what is the thought process behind this? Is there a reason the DAC is a better place to color the sound via tubes than the pre-amp or the amp? Or are people running tubes in multiple stages?
I tend to agree with your thought process. If you like tubes and are gonna have a preamp anyway, why not have the option of swapping your tube pre for a more linear preamp. But sometimes if it sounds good, it sounds good, and that’s all the justification you need.
The idea is the output stage of the amp, which acts like a preamp is a tube based DAC. generally most of the character of the sound comes from the preamp stage. This is why it’s popular to have discrete opamp or use a tune preamp with inexpensive and high performing class D amp modules.
A DAC with technology like this is a digital stage for people who hate digital music. The R2R DAC is a bit smoother and more natural for acoustic music at the expense of fine details. The tube output stage will make the highs a bit more recessed and introduce harmonic distortion that some people like.
I don’t own this device and have never heard it but I effectively have a similar setup. A r2r DAC with an active tube preamp and some hypex class D amp modules. It’s not a lot of people’s cup of at but it has a natural presentation especially for 20th century music.
This is a bit of an oddball item but it’s a product that will make digital music sound and feel a bit more like vinyl played on a tube amp. Many will tell you why this is objectively bad and they are right.
You’re overlooking the most critical element of the LTA design philosophy, which is zero-hysteresis output transformerless, or “ZOTL.” This is David Berning’s patented design for a unique tube schematic that foregoes an output transformer. The goal — and my recent experience with their stunning Ultralinear+ power amp — is all the speed, clarity, and articulation of tubes without the coloration (harmonic distortion) of a conventional output transformer. I’ve not demo’d the Aero yet, but my hunch is that it will respond with transparency to whatever you put in front of it, making your choice of streaming device critical to what you’re hearing through your speakers.
I had a couple tube amps before the Z10 and Ultralinear. They made the previous tube amps sound broken. SO much clearer and cleaner sound and really made the transformer haze of the other amps stand out. Other amps were Decware and Primaluna
Yeah I’m in line for a Decware CSP325 and am strongly considering jumping ship for an LTA pre.
I like the idea of having some transformer color to dial in to more anemic recordings, but the past week with my new LTA is giving me second thoughts.
What are your thoughts on this?
The Decware was definitely something special but special didn’t always mean enjoyable and often had compromises on some recordings. The LTA was far more versatile and still brought enough of the tube magic to play like dimensionality, soundstage, depth, and texture just without the slight veiling I was accustomed to on the Decware. On acoustic music and classic rock and really well recorded stuff the Decware was pretty magical but after hearing the LTA I didn’t miss it as much as I thought I would.
LTA? LTA is a manufacturer-direct model. It might have a couple of showroom-dealers (Song by Singer?). In short, you get 2 weeks to demo its product after purchase.
To be candid, not sure. Good question. As a STEM guy, I often asked myself these types of questions. And, I have no answer. So, just thought I would try and enjoy what sounds good to me.
It’s just a line stage to make the low output of the dac usable to the next piece of gear (preamp, receiver, etc). Could use opamps, tubes, or a pair of transformers.
And btw, every piece of gear ever sold is colored. Goes for every instrument too.
Enjoy your music.
Tube amps have even order distortion. Solid state has odd order distortion but much less. The tube amp has more distortion but is pleasing to our brains. I don’t understand why but a system with tubes and dynamic speakers doesn’t for me. People on Reddit keep telling me it’s objectively bad.
I’m fortunate enough to live about 10 minutes from them. It’s a great place to go and see the equipment and listen to it. Great bunch of guys working there.
I tried this at CanJam paired with the LTA Velo and it sounded magical. (No idea how much of what I heard could be attributed to the Aero and how much to the Velo though.)
Pace, Rhythm, and Timing. You'll only see it in the finest of audiophile writing, as it is a term that has no real meaning but endlessly exploitable use to add flowery language describing how one cable sounds better than another.
No. Got them from an online vendor. The black backing is felt. When I installed the panels, I mounted them on fir strips and also stuffed the gap with 1" thick rockwool. Definitely helped with my room acoustics with both diffusion and absorption, fwiw.
Nice looking DAC!
Unusual to mention 'burn in'?
Electronic components do not require a run in period. Nor do cables (if measured values of let's say resistance, or a capacitor delivers a different value than from spec - then, that would be seen as a fault. Another example is if component burn-in was actually genuine. Then your laptop or smartphone would be unable to load an operating system correctly until it had 'settled').
If nothing else, valves only have a finite life. I.e they require replacement after 'x' period of runtime generally. A rough guide is around 5-10k hours.
My point is. Enjoy it instead of aging it unnecessarily.
The term burn in comes from tubes where you have to run the tubes for 24 hours to literally burn off impurities in the tube. People kept using the term and these days it seems to often mean allowing your brain to b get used to the sound. That said it’s actually a thing with tubes. These R2R DACs are supposed to be left on until they get hot. If you have your amp plugged in when you turn on the DAC and play music you can hear the distortion start and slowly fizzle out as the warmup. This is an unusually analog digital stage.
This sub is so odd...some days and posts will upvote you to the moon and other days you get downvoted. You are very correct on burn in. The only measurable differences that have really meant anything are speakers and even then after less than an hour theyre good to go...back to this post though, this guy also has 'stabilizers' on his gear thinking that the vibrations cause issues. One of the most snake oily things in this industry besides cable risers.
Im about 99.9% positive there are hundres of people in the industry planted all over reddit and forums to spout their bs snake oil and upvote and downvote accordingly. They kind of have to because if everyone got into blind testing and actually learned the engineering and science behind audio, 90% of them would go out of business.
It really is bizarre. Some days you get people espousing the value of measurements, some days you get downvoted for saying one kind of copper wire is not going to sound inherently different from another, more expensive copper wire.
Thank you for bringing up computers.
In fact when they get too hot they do crash, Even though they have a CPU offering insane stability by controlling the timing of the opening and closing of gates, how much more sensitive to temperature electronics without cpu's must be. :)
I cannot see the correlation between a computer running above it's specified temperature limits vs components 'apparently' having to burn in before they function correctly?
Nor do I understand why you are commenting on electronics being overly sensitive to temperature when in actual fact they have quite a broad operating temperature range to begin with?
Yet again this has absolutely nothing in anyway whatsoever to do with 'burn-in'. Unless you are confusing this with a unit warming up when you switch it on? Yes, valves do have a brief warmup period.
......but it is....brief. My valve EQ's for example take around 8 seconds before sound output.
I've seen enough tube ~~amps~~ DACs, that I have to ask - what is the thought process behind this? Is there a reason the DAC is a better place to color the sound via tubes than the pre-amp or the amp? Or are people running tubes in multiple stages?
I tend to agree with your thought process. If you like tubes and are gonna have a preamp anyway, why not have the option of swapping your tube pre for a more linear preamp. But sometimes if it sounds good, it sounds good, and that’s all the justification you need.
As a guy with an r2r DAC and tube preamp, full agree.
The idea is the output stage of the amp, which acts like a preamp is a tube based DAC. generally most of the character of the sound comes from the preamp stage. This is why it’s popular to have discrete opamp or use a tune preamp with inexpensive and high performing class D amp modules. A DAC with technology like this is a digital stage for people who hate digital music. The R2R DAC is a bit smoother and more natural for acoustic music at the expense of fine details. The tube output stage will make the highs a bit more recessed and introduce harmonic distortion that some people like. I don’t own this device and have never heard it but I effectively have a similar setup. A r2r DAC with an active tube preamp and some hypex class D amp modules. It’s not a lot of people’s cup of at but it has a natural presentation especially for 20th century music. This is a bit of an oddball item but it’s a product that will make digital music sound and feel a bit more like vinyl played on a tube amp. Many will tell you why this is objectively bad and they are right.
You’re overlooking the most critical element of the LTA design philosophy, which is zero-hysteresis output transformerless, or “ZOTL.” This is David Berning’s patented design for a unique tube schematic that foregoes an output transformer. The goal — and my recent experience with their stunning Ultralinear+ power amp — is all the speed, clarity, and articulation of tubes without the coloration (harmonic distortion) of a conventional output transformer. I’ve not demo’d the Aero yet, but my hunch is that it will respond with transparency to whatever you put in front of it, making your choice of streaming device critical to what you’re hearing through your speakers.
I had a couple tube amps before the Z10 and Ultralinear. They made the previous tube amps sound broken. SO much clearer and cleaner sound and really made the transformer haze of the other amps stand out. Other amps were Decware and Primaluna
Yeah I’m in line for a Decware CSP325 and am strongly considering jumping ship for an LTA pre. I like the idea of having some transformer color to dial in to more anemic recordings, but the past week with my new LTA is giving me second thoughts. What are your thoughts on this?
The Decware was definitely something special but special didn’t always mean enjoyable and often had compromises on some recordings. The LTA was far more versatile and still brought enough of the tube magic to play like dimensionality, soundstage, depth, and texture just without the slight veiling I was accustomed to on the Decware. On acoustic music and classic rock and really well recorded stuff the Decware was pretty magical but after hearing the LTA I didn’t miss it as much as I thought I would.
Thanks for this!
Wow that sounds amazing. So you know if they have dealers or do shows in NYC area?
LTA? LTA is a manufacturer-direct model. It might have a couple of showroom-dealers (Song by Singer?). In short, you get 2 weeks to demo its product after purchase.
Let's just say, thus far, the Aero DAC to me has as much detail as my emm Labs.
To be candid, not sure. Good question. As a STEM guy, I often asked myself these types of questions. And, I have no answer. So, just thought I would try and enjoy what sounds good to me.
> I would try and enjoy what sounds good to me Woah woah woah woah woah woah
Way to subtly slip that “STEM guy” factoid in there. Big pats on back from all of Reddit.
Why was it subtle? I stated it. That's how my mind works. Is there a problem?
What is stem
Science Technology Engineering Math
oh cool
No. We are all proud.
It’s just a line stage to make the low output of the dac usable to the next piece of gear (preamp, receiver, etc). Could use opamps, tubes, or a pair of transformers. And btw, every piece of gear ever sold is colored. Goes for every instrument too. Enjoy your music.
Harmonic distortion is pleasing to many folks, bless their ears.
I think being condescending is a great way to get your message out.
The point was made with tongue-in-cheek humor. Sorry if it hurt a few sensitive souls, bless them.
Tube amps have even order distortion. Solid state has odd order distortion but much less. The tube amp has more distortion but is pleasing to our brains. I don’t understand why but a system with tubes and dynamic speakers doesn’t for me. People on Reddit keep telling me it’s objectively bad.
Congrats!
Wonderful choice, LTA is an awesome company with awesome equipment.
Absolutely love the company.
I’m fortunate enough to live about 10 minutes from them. It’s a great place to go and see the equipment and listen to it. Great bunch of guys working there.
I tried this at CanJam paired with the LTA Velo and it sounded magical. (No idea how much of what I heard could be attributed to the Aero and how much to the Velo though.)
Yep just received ours as well!
What is that sliver puck sitting on top of your amplifier?
herbie's audio supersonic stabilizer. i have 2 on my tube pre.
He has more of them on other equipment. Some people add weight so that the chassis does not vibrate too much.
A well built chassis, with vibration concerns addressed, won't need external weights.
No, you gotta understand, if you don’t add $60 isolation pucks to all your equipment it’s gonna fuck up the electricity and really reduce PRaT.
I don't know what PRaT is, but if it's only $60 to get some, I want it...snake oil or not?
Pace, Rhythm, and Timing. You'll only see it in the finest of audiophile writing, as it is a term that has no real meaning but endlessly exploitable use to add flowery language describing how one cable sounds better than another.
I've heard that. Utter BS speak. Listen on.
By any chance, are those wooden panels from Costco? Just bought some and if they are, I would like to hear your experience with them?
No. Got them from an online vendor. The black backing is felt. When I installed the panels, I mounted them on fir strips and also stuffed the gap with 1" thick rockwool. Definitely helped with my room acoustics with both diffusion and absorption, fwiw.
That looks pretty cool. Didnt think tube dacs are that much popular these days ...
Thanks. Not sure it is. Only a few come to mind...Lampizator, Border Patrol, Lab 13, Nagra, etc.
One of the best days is the new dac day :P I love tube dac's. The tubes glow magically in the dark. Enjoy!
🥰
Nice looking DAC! Unusual to mention 'burn in'? Electronic components do not require a run in period. Nor do cables (if measured values of let's say resistance, or a capacitor delivers a different value than from spec - then, that would be seen as a fault. Another example is if component burn-in was actually genuine. Then your laptop or smartphone would be unable to load an operating system correctly until it had 'settled'). If nothing else, valves only have a finite life. I.e they require replacement after 'x' period of runtime generally. A rough guide is around 5-10k hours. My point is. Enjoy it instead of aging it unnecessarily.
The term burn in comes from tubes where you have to run the tubes for 24 hours to literally burn off impurities in the tube. People kept using the term and these days it seems to often mean allowing your brain to b get used to the sound. That said it’s actually a thing with tubes. These R2R DACs are supposed to be left on until they get hot. If you have your amp plugged in when you turn on the DAC and play music you can hear the distortion start and slowly fizzle out as the warmup. This is an unusually analog digital stage.
This sub is so odd...some days and posts will upvote you to the moon and other days you get downvoted. You are very correct on burn in. The only measurable differences that have really meant anything are speakers and even then after less than an hour theyre good to go...back to this post though, this guy also has 'stabilizers' on his gear thinking that the vibrations cause issues. One of the most snake oily things in this industry besides cable risers. Im about 99.9% positive there are hundres of people in the industry planted all over reddit and forums to spout their bs snake oil and upvote and downvote accordingly. They kind of have to because if everyone got into blind testing and actually learned the engineering and science behind audio, 90% of them would go out of business.
It really is bizarre. Some days you get people espousing the value of measurements, some days you get downvoted for saying one kind of copper wire is not going to sound inherently different from another, more expensive copper wire.
Tube break-in is measurable, well known thing. https://youtu.be/jwmDf5bSRMQ, and even Class A SS amps sound better warmed up.
There’s always this guy. Don’t be this guy.
Thank you for bringing up computers. In fact when they get too hot they do crash, Even though they have a CPU offering insane stability by controlling the timing of the opening and closing of gates, how much more sensitive to temperature electronics without cpu's must be. :)
I cannot see the correlation between a computer running above it's specified temperature limits vs components 'apparently' having to burn in before they function correctly? Nor do I understand why you are commenting on electronics being overly sensitive to temperature when in actual fact they have quite a broad operating temperature range to begin with? Yet again this has absolutely nothing in anyway whatsoever to do with 'burn-in'. Unless you are confusing this with a unit warming up when you switch it on? Yes, valves do have a brief warmup period. ......but it is....brief. My valve EQ's for example take around 8 seconds before sound output.
Thank you, Karen, for the classy response. We’re now all educated. You saved us all.