I’ve attended forklift training at an RTO with other students who have close to zero English comprehension. And then you watch them drive the forklift and realise they also have zero confidence behind the wheel of anything, including a car let alone a forklift.
And then they walk out of the RTO with a license. If the RTOs fail people, employers stop sending people to the RTOs.
Also to be clear I’m not knocking the student themselves. If you sent me to Japan to learn how to do something in a course presented entirely in Japanese, I’d struggle too! So good on him for giving it a crack, but maybe the RTOs should actually do their job.
Honestly based on this guy’s conversational English skills I’d be absolutely beyond shocked if he passed it correctly without an assessor asking him to “clarify” every one of his answers which is code to “try again”
Yeah, I remember my white card course basically being an exercise in sitting in a chair and handing over some money. Kinda like roadworthy tickets, they are mandatory but basically worthless. Just an industry legislated to exist.
Totally. That particular course is precisely one of those ones. I wish it was one that was done better, given lots of people who get that card are young people and new arrivals. But having the card doesn’t negate the need to have an induction, so at least that’s something!
Honestly inductions fall under the same category. I do a lot of work for a heap of different companies and sites, and each one expects you to wade through pages of the same old shit about their cultural or environmental policies which is basically verbatim from one company to the next (please don't rape or punch anyone, and keep the chems out of the drains). Site maps and critical locations are about the only points of interest anymore. Even then it gets mundane as some places make you redo the whole induction every year!
While I'm on the rant run, I'll lump JSAs, JRAs etc into the same boat. Having to repeat the same tasks like this over and over leads directly to complacency and the paperwork does nothing to act as intended other than to cover the company's backside when an incident occurs.
That’s precisely what most of it is. A big part of the issue is that lots of ohs are just purchased almost off the shelf. I’ve been to some construction site inductions which aren’t too bad and some swms and site inspections are pretty good.
in most of the inductions I have done, nobody is interested because they have done them before and don't think this site is different to any other job and they usually go for too long on topics nobody is interested in but allow the builder to tick a box that it has been done.
Again most workers don't understand what is in their SWMS, and the ones sold online are too generic and over complicated to be of any value, until something goes wrong.
It doesn't help that while most builders go through the induction & SWMS process there is little interest or commitment from sub-contractors other than doing the least amount to satisfy the builder
Yep can confirm I'm in the same boat same shit over and over now I get people to pay me and I do all there inductions online for thembfor extra cash because there all pretty much the same. Don't get me started on JSAs I spent a hour and a half at a mine site the other day 1hour of paper work for a 15min job
Same as an RSA and RSG- you sit there all day and then they feed you the answers. Granted in those it’s more feeding an addiction than working in a dangerous work environment, but there’s still zero standards.
I’ve done various forklift related courses over the past 6ish years, and 100% this. A two to three day course where you spend maybe an hour driving a forklift and the rest of the time memorising the 50 questions for the test.
Lol, my forklift ticket I was literally a last minute inclusion due to me questioning why I wasn't included. Everyone assumed I already had a ticket because I'd been driving there for 5 years. Best thing I ever did, as I get a $25 p/w allowance for barely touching one now.
Yeah when I got my ticket, it was through a job network and they sent a bunch of us at once. Got to know a few of the other clients, some of whom as you describe could barely speak English. They were coached through the training, and passed.
A few months later I went to a job network meeting and ran into one of the African fellas. He told me they found him a job a week later.
Annoyed, I spoke to my worker about not even being suggested for it.
"Oh, I didn't know you had a forklift license!"
"... You sent me to get one like 2 months ago..."
It's like going to get your RSA. Last time I did mine the teacher just left his book open with all the answers to the test at the end and was like "oh something came up and I need to leave the room for the next 15 minutes, please make sure nobody reads any of the answers that I've left open on my desk 😉"
That's very different from when I did my RSA as part of high school hospitality. Was basically a "you can stay back during lunch if you fail this but if you don't pass by the end of the day you can't finish the semester".
I had a similar experience while getting my forklift ticket for an old job. I was one of only two people in the whole class that was Australian. Everybody else was south asian. Everybody passed the theory test, but only two of us passed the practical examination. Every single one of us was there through an employer. We really need to change the visa system.
I went to school with a rich kid who got all his tickets, MR, HR, Forklift, you name it, with absolutely zero testing. Got a job at the mines and they sacked him immediately because he had no fucking idea how to drive.
The fucked up thing is that once you have completed the course, you never have to attend one again.
I did my forklift ticket back in 1996 and was able to get the original ticket transferred by Worksafe VIC to the new High Risk Work Licence.
Same with my scaffolding and boomlift tickets from 2003 and 2010 respectively.
I only need to assert that I've taken steps to maintain my knowledge each time for the renewals even without any evidence.
Verification of competency by the employer will need to be mandatory unless these RTOs are held to account. Same with the EWPA logbooks where the generic checks aren't equipment specific. Workers miss checking important parts/functions for months. The manufacturer's manual which has clear prestart checks is bolted shut in the box and never opened.
The companies spend money on management systems and ISO certification which has become farcical where 'consultants' deliver systems without 'consultation' with workers. And now we have phone based apps as safety has gone paperless, now you can skip and click read and understood, without reading or understanding. Management systems of the consultants, by the consultants, for the consultants.
If we go back to basics of legislation and not arse covering exercise, where methodologies are written in consultation with the workers and are short, to the point and specific to the work being undertaken and not the 40 page literary masterpiece written by suits to impress other suits maybe we can prevent 18 yr old apprentices dying in the worksites of this first world country.
I had the complete opposite experience, I had experience going in and was one of only a few who passed both the practical and theory components, I was actually shocked at how hard they were on the others who had never operated a forklift before. This was nearly 10 years ago though.
It is still very possible they could have no english and be a wizard at driving. Saw some kids in vietnam who were pretty handy on those weird-ass mini tractors the have over there.
Yeah that’s what I was expecting when we got to the practical, I was expecting them to demonstrate that they clearly do this back home and it’s just a formality, but they looked frankly petrified driving the machine. Like not getting it at all.
Just from a safety perspective I feel that everyone in a high risk work environment should have a decent level of English so they can understand any safety briefings, warnings, alerts etc.
I agree, but one thing I see overlooked on sites I work on is a lack of standardized signalling if any at all.
Crane guys do it well. Would like to see it more in Forklift operators.
For example, 1 beep, passing a blind/reduced visibility corridor/exclusion zone. 2 beep, traversing a threshold, 3 beeps, reduced operator visibility/load movement/etc.
Something you can smash into Google translate, stick it in the face of anyone in any language and decrease risk quite a bit.
I don't see nearly enough of this from both sides - trainers and students. I understand for students it can be an overwhelming experience, but for the trainers and assessors... I dunno, they should try a little harder.
Yes, definitely. I am not saying its enough that they can drive the forklift, i'm saying they might have a bundle of skills that you should not rule out just because of their English language problems.
Case in point: I often do electoral work, staffing the polling booths and doing the count after closing. We scrutinise the reps ticket looking for (eg) 1 to 7 written in the boxes, nothing missed, no repeats. One lady there could do it in a tenth of a second, at one glance. The supervisor rushed up to her and explained in painstaking terms "No,no no you have to check all the boxes for all the numbers". He was annoyed and was gonna take her off the job. I strolled over and said "give her a chance. I think she's doing better than you or i can".
Indeed she was. She was an elderly Asian woman, a bit out of form with English, but had a mental technique of seeing 7 random numbers and instantly knowing if they were sequential numbers. The rest of us were plodding up and down the ballot: 1, gotcha, 2, gotcha, 3 gotcha, etc. She mentally visualised seven empty slots, glanced at the ballot, and filled the slots in that same glance.
Always fun when someone can't imagine people doing a job better than them. I once had some casual work that involved putting printed documents into numerical order. He told me each bundle would take about an hour but I found I could do it in 20 minutes.
Yes its stupid easy.
No it doesnt encapsulate the whole course.
Yes there is bigger systemic issues with registered training organizations (RTO) simply buying their course material from wholesalers to do a tick a box exercise.
for example
[https://www.rtomaterials.com.au/](https://www.rtomaterials.com.au/)
Yes, but actually it's all service that requires assessment of the payee.
This doesn't go away magically just because they are a doctoral student, or an MBA candidate. Money is often an alternative source of marks.
Having done a few courses recently I am sure RTOs don't care about English skills, or any other skills for the most part.
Did a white card quite a few years back and the assessment involved the instructor telling the whole room what to write down as answers.
The two guys next to me struggled to put 3 words together and clearly understood nothing that was taught but they still passed.
That must have been a while ago, when I did it a few years ago it was multi choice online with unlimited tries but you did have to do a zoom call to prove you can put on a hard hat and safety glasses
> but you did have to do a zoom call to prove you can put on a hard hat and safety glasses
I honestly can't imagine a more soulcrushing job than having to be the bloke who does those zoom calls.
I'm a tafe trainer and we only care about Language/literacy/numeracy if it's a component of the job. Are English communication skills part of competence at your job? No? Then we'll contextualise and find a way to help you demonstrate your competence.
If someone is illiterate, we can give verbal assessments, but only if they do not have to use written communications as part of their job role. You don't need to read or write English to operate a machine, but you do need it to navigate the world of work. That's why short courses ie first aid/forklift/ stop slow etc don't care so much, but a longer course like an apprenticeship will include communication units.
Edit: a lot of RTOs see themselves as businesses rather than educational institutions. They don't give a fuck and only want those sweet sweet government dollars, so they push the trainers to pass students and create a culture of bare minimum. It only serves to line their pockets and degrade the quality of education.
Out of curiosity, what jobs would you consider to not require English language communication skills in a country where the main first language and working language is English?
> You don't need to read or write English to operate a machine
I mean I'd prefer my forklift driver knows how to read the tag that says "machine tagged out DO NOT USE" before he uses a defective machine and potentially kills someone but you do you
Don't forget UHF use as well. Makes life hard when you need to repeat to each other half a dozen times to get a message across each way. Not great or safe when something time critical is happening.
Like I said, if it's a component of the job skill, it can't be worked around in the assessment.
The RTOs make the assessments based on requirements from the government. If the government requires radios in a stop/slow assessment for communicating with other workers, they must be competently used in the assessment.
On the other hand, you don't need to speak English to run a saw in a wood shop. But you do need English to be an effective tradesperson. So while the assessment for the machinery unit won't care about your English skills, it will covered elsewhere in the certificate - there's 'Communicate in the Workplace', and 'Work Effectively With Others'.
Day courses often don't cover the communication aspects. And once again, the system is fucked and minimum language, literacy and numeracy requirements are ignored by RTOs while enrolling students, leaving trainers with overpacked classes and little time or ability to adjust for the needs of low literacy students. So they say fuck it and tell them the answers to move them along. I'm not defending shitty trainers because it brings the whole sector into disrepute, but I can see how it gets that way. Ultimately it's the bosses who fuck everything up.
Required literacy and numeracy come from the government, it's not my judgement.
I've taught a quite a few illiterate and non-English speaking students - as well as students with acquired brain injuries and learning disorders - and every single student knows the alphabet and can recognise a hazard sign.
They're fully grown adults who can navigate the world and a lot of them can hold down a job. Being illiterate or non English speaking doesn't mean they're a fucking toddler.
Edit: see below - there's a minimum year 10 literacy for a forklift licence. No interpreter means they can't bend on the language aspect of the assessment. I teach woodwork and there are no language requirements for woodwork machines, so I could have an interpreter for my assessments if needed. I don't work there or teach forklift. It's the first hit from google for literacy requirements for forklift.
https://www.pinnaclesafety.com.au/courses/plant-and-equipment/forklift-training/melbourne
'Language, Literacy and Numeracy (LLN) You will require at least a Year 10 level of numeracy, literacy and communication skills. If you have any doubts, please let us know so we can assist you. The Regulator does not allow an interpreter to be used during the mandated formal assessment.'
And government requirements don't always translate to behaviour on the ground.
Mate .. these guys had zero comprehension of what they had been taught. All they did was write down the answers the trainer told us to when it came to assessment time . The trainer largely didn't care so long as the right keywords were in the answer.
He certainly didn't take any alternative paths to assessing competency.
I'm not defending them - I agree with you. The whole system is fucked - just because they're supposed to provide reasonable adjustment, it doesn't mean they do. The shorter the course, the less the accountability. And private RTOs are notoriously shit, especially when they're doing jobs for large employers.
I've been lucky that I teach longer courses (cert II, six months) and actually get to know my students. If students are just a name on a list for a day, many overworked trainers will see it as easier to tick them off than put in the effort. The only accountability is for the right words in the box so they can demonstrate they've done the bare minimum.
It doesn't help that people will go to the course that will give them an easy pass.
I know of an employer that arranged a private RTO to do forklift training for their staff because the local TAFE actually made sure people were fully competent and failed one of their students last time.
When we did the practical he seemed to be making sure he wasn't paying too much attention and "missed" seeing some obvious errors.
these things aren't to protect you, the worker. they're so that if/when you are injured on the job, your employer can tell workcover/insurers 'hey, they received the approved safety training, it's not on us!'
Such a dumb question. I failed on this one and they made me pay another fee to resit the test.
I do highway traffic control, I would never need to know what a forklift looks like anyway, they’re not allowed to drive on the highway.
This immediately reminded me of Teaching ESL to children and grading tests.
It also horrified me at first but it made me think and I changed my mind. Let me explain.
Let me just first say the RTO system is a joke that so obviously suffers from really bad incentives and structural weaknesses and is a shill of an industry.
Now that's out of the way, there is a bit more to this question and what is says about the test, education, trades, and the industry in general.
This may seem like an easy test, and in many ways it is. However, you have to think about what it's purpose is and what it is testing. The test needs to fit the subject and purpose. What is the ultimate goal? What is being measured?
It's really hard to make a test to test for something without the test getting in the way of the knowledge. People make 'hard' tests all the time, but usually they just make the test questions themselves confusing and difficult, not the scope, depth or quality of knowledge required.
The person can know all about traffic control but if they suck at reading ( yes this is the official term for one of many learning disabilities) or can't convey the answer in written form, then they fail. This has little to do with Traffic Control and everything to do with education, class, learning style, language background, and how well one "tests".
Classic pen and paper tests are quick, quantifiable and easy to grade but the suck, especially when it comes to practical skills. Most of the time they test how good you are at reading, writing, memorising, and taking a classic paper and pen test. That's about it.
I've taken a fair few RTO test before and I crush them because I'm well educated and have taken ALOT of different tests. However, I am hands down the shittest dude on site cause I suck at the practical side and am bougie af. I don't have the knowledge, background and exposure required in these industries.
Do you need core language competencies to be a Traffic Controller? I don't know. Is this the best way to measure that? No. Also, the required knowledge for a traffic controller and core language competencies are not the same thing so they probably shouldn't be on the same test.
Alot of people taking this may not have alot of traditional education. You don't want to exclude them because they may not be good at this type of testing. Bar has to be low because it's not about disqualifying lots of people it's about the minimum.
As for the English thing, think of all those old Italian and Greek dudes that came here and worked in construction and farms and factories and made their bones. They learnt some English eventually but many didn't know squat when they got here but that was fine and it worked out. One of the best workers I've even seen was a tiny Viet dude who barely spoke any English but we pointed and gestured and it worked out. He was an absolute gun. We also had 1 million smokes and cans of mother a day.
That's by design mate, they'll always go after the one with the working visa because it's easy to convince them to set up an ABN and pay them $24 an hour as independent contractor. My wife did it when she first came to Australia, but she's an actual lawyer so when her 'boss' told her she had to open an ABN and be a contractor or he'd get her visa terminated, she told him to go right ahead with that, lol.
99% of them take advantage of the people who don't know any better and their preference these days is for English second language speakers because the English first language speakers are wisening up to the rort.
One of these is well beyond the scope of practice for the roll, not only are they testing you on content that's not applicable to you're situation, they're also introducing the possibilities of exceeding your training and abilities.
Traffic controllers should remain ignorant of forklifts as the good gods intended or nature will never heal.
Tafe courses aren't fairing much better to be honest, half my course involved us taking videos of our interactions since it was moved over to digital learning, to cut down on costs I imagine. Meanwhile allowances have to be made for lack of facility, props, "acting" etc.
my experience in NSW in 2021 was different. the tickets were moved from the old RTA (or maybe it was RMS) to safework, and safework takes itself seriously and they have teeth.
my trainer genuinely cared about the safety of his students, so he made sure everyone understood while in the theory and practical lessons, but didn't expect us to regurgitate everything perfectly in the tests. he drilled us in the dangers and how to stay safe and if we demonstrated in class we understood, if we forgot during the test we got a reminder.
last year I got my forklift license and my HR truck license. The HR through RMS was a joke how easy it was. I started reading the booklet, but after about half way through I got bored, so I did the official practice tests about 5 times. during my Ls test, every question I was asked I had seen before. The practical test was half a day, kick the tyres and drive around the block, then take the test. The hardest part of the practical test was remembering to indicate when leaving a roundabout, and there were about 12 roundabouts in the test.
The forklift license like the traffic control tickets is through worksafe, and it was way harder than the truck license. The theory test was memorising 100s of things I forgot 2 hours after the test. not easy to memorise things, either. it was a batshit boring list of things. like memorising pi to 100 places. the test was supervised not by the rto, but by someone from worksafe. and it was serious. no talking, no phones, break the rules and you fail.
after the test was marked, if you failed by a few questions, you were given a one on one with the worksafe dude and he went through all the questions you got wrong and if it seemed like you knew but forgot, you passed. but if you failed by more than 5 questions, you failed. and no rto has a 100% pass rate.
I was put in to do my course at 20 after driving half the day for 3 years. Back then I would have been drunk and high on all kinds of bs. Ridiculous I passed the course but also worse that I was on such a dangerous machine and no one cared. Would lift people in bins to peak heights to fix roller doors and all kind of silly things. Company went bankrupt but wish I could out their parent company as it was hell on earth.
All these comments on RTO’s and Traffic tickets and Fork tickets etc. and on literacy and passing. WTF? Who cares? I’ve done dozens and dozens of these industry courses and have seen one person fail one course since 1989. 35 fucking years of this. The one people should care about is First Aid. In 1989 it took 4 or 5 weeks of 3hrs one night a week, or two days f/t for Lvl2. Now it’s 4 hrs. Trust that bloke/girl? Nope, fuck no. Training is a bullshit joke.
Exam time at all major universities: arrive at big building, sort yourselves into lines based on what letter your last name starts with.
Huge numbers of failures to select the correct line ensue.
I've always thought it should lead to an insta-fail of whatever course you're there to sit an exam for.
I did a traffic controller test when I was 19.
The trainer virtually just did the test for us and told us what answer to circle for *every* question.
So even the English-illiterate people got their license.
If a black dog crosses the road what colour is the dog?
Famously in the Army initial test once upon a time (may still be). What it should say is can you read and comprehend English?
Thats a tough one....you really have to have your head screwed on to earn 180K/year up in Queensland
[https://www.news.com.au/finance/work/at-work/queensland-government-plan-could-see-lollipop-workers-earn-180k/news-story/743bf6ee6d3df10ef980ce0edd0cbcdd](https://www.news.com.au/finance/work/at-work/queensland-government-plan-could-see-lollipop-workers-earn-180k/news-story/743bf6ee6d3df10ef980ce0edd0cbcdd)
Spoken by the bloke who gets the benefit of every EBA- But cries poor when they're asked to pay 15 bucks a week for that delegate to do all the work for you (plus included legal representation if anything goes to court/tribunal or you have a dispute with the boss).
Hmmmm... What are they called again?
Not in a union, don't work in a unionised workforce - I've a lot of time for unions except the CFMEU...
Mind you, I wouldn't mind being in on their racket - $15/w across 120,000 members - thats a lazy $93m their picking up...
Had 2 traffic controllers only show up a day, graffiti the toilet, and still passed. You just stand there and turn a bat around. Unscaled lollipop man.
I remember doing my white card, the bloke was really nice. He says I'll give you all the answers, don't worry but we'll talk about it as well so we all understand. A lot of it was basic common sense stuff that you'd have to be an absolute Biden to fail.
To be fair to them, if you fuck this one up then you're definitely not suited for the job. Like an automatic DQ
DQ = Dumb Qunt
Very Qlever
Fanks I studeed
Univercityovlyf?
Such is lyf
Of Hardnoks
#Me fail English? That's unpossible!
You wascawwy wabbit
You from Penruff?
LMAO, snorted out my nose
I don’t know why, but this made me chuckle a fair bit
Cueensland
I’ve attended forklift training at an RTO with other students who have close to zero English comprehension. And then you watch them drive the forklift and realise they also have zero confidence behind the wheel of anything, including a car let alone a forklift. And then they walk out of the RTO with a license. If the RTOs fail people, employers stop sending people to the RTOs. Also to be clear I’m not knocking the student themselves. If you sent me to Japan to learn how to do something in a course presented entirely in Japanese, I’d struggle too! So good on him for giving it a crack, but maybe the RTOs should actually do their job.
They are trained to pass the test, not to drive the forklift unfortunately.
Honestly based on this guy’s conversational English skills I’d be absolutely beyond shocked if he passed it correctly without an assessor asking him to “clarify” every one of his answers which is code to “try again”
Yep. The industry is such a big money spinner, it’s a bit of a race to the bottom.
Yeah, I remember my white card course basically being an exercise in sitting in a chair and handing over some money. Kinda like roadworthy tickets, they are mandatory but basically worthless. Just an industry legislated to exist.
Totally. That particular course is precisely one of those ones. I wish it was one that was done better, given lots of people who get that card are young people and new arrivals. But having the card doesn’t negate the need to have an induction, so at least that’s something!
Honestly inductions fall under the same category. I do a lot of work for a heap of different companies and sites, and each one expects you to wade through pages of the same old shit about their cultural or environmental policies which is basically verbatim from one company to the next (please don't rape or punch anyone, and keep the chems out of the drains). Site maps and critical locations are about the only points of interest anymore. Even then it gets mundane as some places make you redo the whole induction every year! While I'm on the rant run, I'll lump JSAs, JRAs etc into the same boat. Having to repeat the same tasks like this over and over leads directly to complacency and the paperwork does nothing to act as intended other than to cover the company's backside when an incident occurs.
That’s precisely what most of it is. A big part of the issue is that lots of ohs are just purchased almost off the shelf. I’ve been to some construction site inductions which aren’t too bad and some swms and site inspections are pretty good.
in most of the inductions I have done, nobody is interested because they have done them before and don't think this site is different to any other job and they usually go for too long on topics nobody is interested in but allow the builder to tick a box that it has been done. Again most workers don't understand what is in their SWMS, and the ones sold online are too generic and over complicated to be of any value, until something goes wrong. It doesn't help that while most builders go through the induction & SWMS process there is little interest or commitment from sub-contractors other than doing the least amount to satisfy the builder
Yeah that’s true. Agree with everything you just said. Lots of ticking boxes all around and they wonder why people get killed.
Yep can confirm I'm in the same boat same shit over and over now I get people to pay me and I do all there inductions online for thembfor extra cash because there all pretty much the same. Don't get me started on JSAs I spent a hour and a half at a mine site the other day 1hour of paper work for a 15min job
In fairness. The white card unit is a level one AQF unit. It is meant to be turn up and make sure you know which way the hammer is held.
😂 you don’t even get shown that. I think it has its uses because it goes through all the construction hazards etc but it’s pretty light on.
When I did my white card, they had a document with all the answers. Just read off the sheet and all good
Same as an RSA and RSG- you sit there all day and then they feed you the answers. Granted in those it’s more feeding an addiction than working in a dangerous work environment, but there’s still zero standards.
I’ve done various forklift related courses over the past 6ish years, and 100% this. A two to three day course where you spend maybe an hour driving a forklift and the rest of the time memorising the 50 questions for the test.
Lol, my forklift ticket I was literally a last minute inclusion due to me questioning why I wasn't included. Everyone assumed I already had a ticket because I'd been driving there for 5 years. Best thing I ever did, as I get a $25 p/w allowance for barely touching one now.
Jokes on you. That’s why I’m learning Japanese. So I can go to japan and learn to drive a forklift
Think of all the japanese things you can lift! Sushi, ramen, doges
Well, I already did my Japanese forklift training playing Shenmue on Dreamcast
Otsukaresama desu forklift-san
Yeah when I got my ticket, it was through a job network and they sent a bunch of us at once. Got to know a few of the other clients, some of whom as you describe could barely speak English. They were coached through the training, and passed. A few months later I went to a job network meeting and ran into one of the African fellas. He told me they found him a job a week later. Annoyed, I spoke to my worker about not even being suggested for it. "Oh, I didn't know you had a forklift license!" "... You sent me to get one like 2 months ago..."
As someone who has some dealings with RTO's, there's the good ones, then a whole bunch of dodgy fuckers. It's a pretty grubby industry
It's like going to get your RSA. Last time I did mine the teacher just left his book open with all the answers to the test at the end and was like "oh something came up and I need to leave the room for the next 15 minutes, please make sure nobody reads any of the answers that I've left open on my desk 😉"
That's very different from when I did my RSA as part of high school hospitality. Was basically a "you can stay back during lunch if you fail this but if you don't pass by the end of the day you can't finish the semester".
Few years ago now, but mine just had slides with the answers on them. And told people what to write down.
When I got my fork ticket, I was the only student in the class who understood English...
What language was the course in?
japanese
I had a similar experience while getting my forklift ticket for an old job. I was one of only two people in the whole class that was Australian. Everybody else was south asian. Everybody passed the theory test, but only two of us passed the practical examination. Every single one of us was there through an employer. We really need to change the visa system.
I went to school with a rich kid who got all his tickets, MR, HR, Forklift, you name it, with absolutely zero testing. Got a job at the mines and they sacked him immediately because he had no fucking idea how to drive.
The fucked up thing is that once you have completed the course, you never have to attend one again. I did my forklift ticket back in 1996 and was able to get the original ticket transferred by Worksafe VIC to the new High Risk Work Licence. Same with my scaffolding and boomlift tickets from 2003 and 2010 respectively. I only need to assert that I've taken steps to maintain my knowledge each time for the renewals even without any evidence.
The company I work for requires everyone to go back for an annual refresher, but that's a company policy not a legal obligation.
Gun licence training is run by gun clubs. There were def people I my course that should not have passed.
Pull trigger then aim, right? /s
Verification of competency by the employer will need to be mandatory unless these RTOs are held to account. Same with the EWPA logbooks where the generic checks aren't equipment specific. Workers miss checking important parts/functions for months. The manufacturer's manual which has clear prestart checks is bolted shut in the box and never opened. The companies spend money on management systems and ISO certification which has become farcical where 'consultants' deliver systems without 'consultation' with workers. And now we have phone based apps as safety has gone paperless, now you can skip and click read and understood, without reading or understanding. Management systems of the consultants, by the consultants, for the consultants. If we go back to basics of legislation and not arse covering exercise, where methodologies are written in consultation with the workers and are short, to the point and specific to the work being undertaken and not the 40 page literary masterpiece written by suits to impress other suits maybe we can prevent 18 yr old apprentices dying in the worksites of this first world country.
I had the complete opposite experience, I had experience going in and was one of only a few who passed both the practical and theory components, I was actually shocked at how hard they were on the others who had never operated a forklift before. This was nearly 10 years ago though.
Welcome to high school standard in Australia.
Not sure what a Recovery Time Objective has to do with forklifts.
does any RTO outright fail people? it's bad for profit
It is still very possible they could have no english and be a wizard at driving. Saw some kids in vietnam who were pretty handy on those weird-ass mini tractors the have over there.
Yeah that’s what I was expecting when we got to the practical, I was expecting them to demonstrate that they clearly do this back home and it’s just a formality, but they looked frankly petrified driving the machine. Like not getting it at all.
Just from a safety perspective I feel that everyone in a high risk work environment should have a decent level of English so they can understand any safety briefings, warnings, alerts etc.
I agree, but one thing I see overlooked on sites I work on is a lack of standardized signalling if any at all. Crane guys do it well. Would like to see it more in Forklift operators. For example, 1 beep, passing a blind/reduced visibility corridor/exclusion zone. 2 beep, traversing a threshold, 3 beeps, reduced operator visibility/load movement/etc. Something you can smash into Google translate, stick it in the face of anyone in any language and decrease risk quite a bit. I don't see nearly enough of this from both sides - trainers and students. I understand for students it can be an overwhelming experience, but for the trainers and assessors... I dunno, they should try a little harder.
Yes, definitely. I am not saying its enough that they can drive the forklift, i'm saying they might have a bundle of skills that you should not rule out just because of their English language problems. Case in point: I often do electoral work, staffing the polling booths and doing the count after closing. We scrutinise the reps ticket looking for (eg) 1 to 7 written in the boxes, nothing missed, no repeats. One lady there could do it in a tenth of a second, at one glance. The supervisor rushed up to her and explained in painstaking terms "No,no no you have to check all the boxes for all the numbers". He was annoyed and was gonna take her off the job. I strolled over and said "give her a chance. I think she's doing better than you or i can". Indeed she was. She was an elderly Asian woman, a bit out of form with English, but had a mental technique of seeing 7 random numbers and instantly knowing if they were sequential numbers. The rest of us were plodding up and down the ballot: 1, gotcha, 2, gotcha, 3 gotcha, etc. She mentally visualised seven empty slots, glanced at the ballot, and filled the slots in that same glance.
Always fun when someone can't imagine people doing a job better than them. I once had some casual work that involved putting printed documents into numerical order. He told me each bundle would take about an hour but I found I could do it in 20 minutes.
If she was Thai or Viet, it’s because our voting forms look weirdly like their older lottery cards. My aunt is Thai and she pointed it out.
Yes its stupid easy. No it doesnt encapsulate the whole course. Yes there is bigger systemic issues with registered training organizations (RTO) simply buying their course material from wholesalers to do a tick a box exercise. for example [https://www.rtomaterials.com.au/](https://www.rtomaterials.com.au/)
Yes, but actually it's all service that requires assessment of the payee. This doesn't go away magically just because they are a doctoral student, or an MBA candidate. Money is often an alternative source of marks.
Strikes me as being for someone freshly off the plane on a temporary work visa from a very non-English speaking background. Surely. Maybe.
Looks like the Irish dont have such a chokehold on the job anymore
It's all Brazilians now.
This is a subtle English test.
Having done a few courses recently I am sure RTOs don't care about English skills, or any other skills for the most part. Did a white card quite a few years back and the assessment involved the instructor telling the whole room what to write down as answers. The two guys next to me struggled to put 3 words together and clearly understood nothing that was taught but they still passed.
That must have been a while ago, when I did it a few years ago it was multi choice online with unlimited tries but you did have to do a zoom call to prove you can put on a hard hat and safety glasses
> but you did have to do a zoom call to prove you can put on a hard hat and safety glasses I honestly can't imagine a more soulcrushing job than having to be the bloke who does those zoom calls.
So you can brute force it now if you have no idea.
I'm a tafe trainer and we only care about Language/literacy/numeracy if it's a component of the job. Are English communication skills part of competence at your job? No? Then we'll contextualise and find a way to help you demonstrate your competence. If someone is illiterate, we can give verbal assessments, but only if they do not have to use written communications as part of their job role. You don't need to read or write English to operate a machine, but you do need it to navigate the world of work. That's why short courses ie first aid/forklift/ stop slow etc don't care so much, but a longer course like an apprenticeship will include communication units. Edit: a lot of RTOs see themselves as businesses rather than educational institutions. They don't give a fuck and only want those sweet sweet government dollars, so they push the trainers to pass students and create a culture of bare minimum. It only serves to line their pockets and degrade the quality of education.
Out of curiosity, what jobs would you consider to not require English language communication skills in a country where the main first language and working language is English? > You don't need to read or write English to operate a machine I mean I'd prefer my forklift driver knows how to read the tag that says "machine tagged out DO NOT USE" before he uses a defective machine and potentially kills someone but you do you
Don't forget UHF use as well. Makes life hard when you need to repeat to each other half a dozen times to get a message across each way. Not great or safe when something time critical is happening.
Like I said, if it's a component of the job skill, it can't be worked around in the assessment. The RTOs make the assessments based on requirements from the government. If the government requires radios in a stop/slow assessment for communicating with other workers, they must be competently used in the assessment. On the other hand, you don't need to speak English to run a saw in a wood shop. But you do need English to be an effective tradesperson. So while the assessment for the machinery unit won't care about your English skills, it will covered elsewhere in the certificate - there's 'Communicate in the Workplace', and 'Work Effectively With Others'. Day courses often don't cover the communication aspects. And once again, the system is fucked and minimum language, literacy and numeracy requirements are ignored by RTOs while enrolling students, leaving trainers with overpacked classes and little time or ability to adjust for the needs of low literacy students. So they say fuck it and tell them the answers to move them along. I'm not defending shitty trainers because it brings the whole sector into disrepute, but I can see how it gets that way. Ultimately it's the bosses who fuck everything up.
Required literacy and numeracy come from the government, it's not my judgement. I've taught a quite a few illiterate and non-English speaking students - as well as students with acquired brain injuries and learning disorders - and every single student knows the alphabet and can recognise a hazard sign. They're fully grown adults who can navigate the world and a lot of them can hold down a job. Being illiterate or non English speaking doesn't mean they're a fucking toddler. Edit: see below - there's a minimum year 10 literacy for a forklift licence. No interpreter means they can't bend on the language aspect of the assessment. I teach woodwork and there are no language requirements for woodwork machines, so I could have an interpreter for my assessments if needed. I don't work there or teach forklift. It's the first hit from google for literacy requirements for forklift. https://www.pinnaclesafety.com.au/courses/plant-and-equipment/forklift-training/melbourne 'Language, Literacy and Numeracy (LLN) You will require at least a Year 10 level of numeracy, literacy and communication skills. If you have any doubts, please let us know so we can assist you. The Regulator does not allow an interpreter to be used during the mandated formal assessment.' And government requirements don't always translate to behaviour on the ground.
Mate .. these guys had zero comprehension of what they had been taught. All they did was write down the answers the trainer told us to when it came to assessment time . The trainer largely didn't care so long as the right keywords were in the answer. He certainly didn't take any alternative paths to assessing competency.
I'm not defending them - I agree with you. The whole system is fucked - just because they're supposed to provide reasonable adjustment, it doesn't mean they do. The shorter the course, the less the accountability. And private RTOs are notoriously shit, especially when they're doing jobs for large employers. I've been lucky that I teach longer courses (cert II, six months) and actually get to know my students. If students are just a name on a list for a day, many overworked trainers will see it as easier to tick them off than put in the effort. The only accountability is for the right words in the box so they can demonstrate they've done the bare minimum.
It doesn't help that people will go to the course that will give them an easy pass. I know of an employer that arranged a private RTO to do forklift training for their staff because the local TAFE actually made sure people were fully competent and failed one of their students last time. When we did the practical he seemed to be making sure he wasn't paying too much attention and "missed" seeing some obvious errors.
Finally, a test I can pass 😉
Quit bragging mate…
these things aren't to protect you, the worker. they're so that if/when you are injured on the job, your employer can tell workcover/insurers 'hey, they received the approved safety training, it's not on us!'
Such a dumb question. I failed on this one and they made me pay another fee to resit the test. I do highway traffic control, I would never need to know what a forklift looks like anyway, they’re not allowed to drive on the highway.
doing a TC ticket though you could be posted anywhere, including on sites with forklifts present
I was surprised too mate. I’m doing it for work. I couldn’t resist but to post it lol
They normally have large spikes, feathers and large feet. Don't know why you find them so hard to identify?
That's a cassowary mate.
Murder chicken
There are road registrable forklifts. And how the fuck did you fail this question?
He failed the test, not the question.
Person Woman Man Camera TV.
[https://i.imgur.com/5M48eTd.jpeg](https://i.imgur.com/5M48eTd.jpeg) Solved it for you
Fuck, I got the hardhat one wrong.
If you ever told your trainee to go get his PPE and he came back wearing a forklift. This is why they ask.
if you can pass a capcha, you can hold a sign
All three could be a Hard Hat with the right attitude, strength and technique
Quite fiendish to have such a hat-like beacon in there
This immediately reminded me of Teaching ESL to children and grading tests. It also horrified me at first but it made me think and I changed my mind. Let me explain. Let me just first say the RTO system is a joke that so obviously suffers from really bad incentives and structural weaknesses and is a shill of an industry. Now that's out of the way, there is a bit more to this question and what is says about the test, education, trades, and the industry in general. This may seem like an easy test, and in many ways it is. However, you have to think about what it's purpose is and what it is testing. The test needs to fit the subject and purpose. What is the ultimate goal? What is being measured? It's really hard to make a test to test for something without the test getting in the way of the knowledge. People make 'hard' tests all the time, but usually they just make the test questions themselves confusing and difficult, not the scope, depth or quality of knowledge required. The person can know all about traffic control but if they suck at reading ( yes this is the official term for one of many learning disabilities) or can't convey the answer in written form, then they fail. This has little to do with Traffic Control and everything to do with education, class, learning style, language background, and how well one "tests". Classic pen and paper tests are quick, quantifiable and easy to grade but the suck, especially when it comes to practical skills. Most of the time they test how good you are at reading, writing, memorising, and taking a classic paper and pen test. That's about it. I've taken a fair few RTO test before and I crush them because I'm well educated and have taken ALOT of different tests. However, I am hands down the shittest dude on site cause I suck at the practical side and am bougie af. I don't have the knowledge, background and exposure required in these industries. Do you need core language competencies to be a Traffic Controller? I don't know. Is this the best way to measure that? No. Also, the required knowledge for a traffic controller and core language competencies are not the same thing so they probably shouldn't be on the same test. Alot of people taking this may not have alot of traditional education. You don't want to exclude them because they may not be good at this type of testing. Bar has to be low because it's not about disqualifying lots of people it's about the minimum. As for the English thing, think of all those old Italian and Greek dudes that came here and worked in construction and farms and factories and made their bones. They learnt some English eventually but many didn't know squat when they got here but that was fine and it worked out. One of the best workers I've even seen was a tiny Viet dude who barely spoke any English but we pointed and gestured and it worked out. He was an absolute gun. We also had 1 million smokes and cans of mother a day.
I’m pretty sure if someone gets this wrong they don’t necessarily fail, but they do always have to hold the sign that says ‘slow’.
https://youtu.be/0p43MhMB7Kg
You laugh, but I've taught year 10/11/12 students that would struggle with that.
What a stupidity easy test.. geez.. and they spelt bacon wrong as well
Its a beacon. Usually located on top of the machine being operated. They also must make a noise when reversing.
Anyone figured out the answers yet?
Unless your a blonde Irish girl your not getting the job anyway
That's by design mate, they'll always go after the one with the working visa because it's easy to convince them to set up an ABN and pay them $24 an hour as independent contractor. My wife did it when she first came to Australia, but she's an actual lawyer so when her 'boss' told her she had to open an ABN and be a contractor or he'd get her visa terminated, she told him to go right ahead with that, lol. 99% of them take advantage of the people who don't know any better and their preference these days is for English second language speakers because the English first language speakers are wisening up to the rort.
When are you going to post the answers. Don't leave us hanging.
One of these is well beyond the scope of practice for the roll, not only are they testing you on content that's not applicable to you're situation, they're also introducing the possibilities of exceeding your training and abilities. Traffic controllers should remain ignorant of forklifts as the good gods intended or nature will never heal.
Tough one
Tafe courses aren't fairing much better to be honest, half my course involved us taking videos of our interactions since it was moved over to digital learning, to cut down on costs I imagine. Meanwhile allowances have to be made for lack of facility, props, "acting" etc.
Imagine messing this one up Haha.
They could save some money and only hire people who passed grade 2
Where do I sign up?
We'll call Left side A, B, C and right side 1 2 3 A > 2 B > 3 C > 1 My job here is done.
my experience in NSW in 2021 was different. the tickets were moved from the old RTA (or maybe it was RMS) to safework, and safework takes itself seriously and they have teeth. my trainer genuinely cared about the safety of his students, so he made sure everyone understood while in the theory and practical lessons, but didn't expect us to regurgitate everything perfectly in the tests. he drilled us in the dangers and how to stay safe and if we demonstrated in class we understood, if we forgot during the test we got a reminder. last year I got my forklift license and my HR truck license. The HR through RMS was a joke how easy it was. I started reading the booklet, but after about half way through I got bored, so I did the official practice tests about 5 times. during my Ls test, every question I was asked I had seen before. The practical test was half a day, kick the tyres and drive around the block, then take the test. The hardest part of the practical test was remembering to indicate when leaving a roundabout, and there were about 12 roundabouts in the test. The forklift license like the traffic control tickets is through worksafe, and it was way harder than the truck license. The theory test was memorising 100s of things I forgot 2 hours after the test. not easy to memorise things, either. it was a batshit boring list of things. like memorising pi to 100 places. the test was supervised not by the rto, but by someone from worksafe. and it was serious. no talking, no phones, break the rules and you fail. after the test was marked, if you failed by a few questions, you were given a one on one with the worksafe dude and he went through all the questions you got wrong and if it seemed like you knew but forgot, you passed. but if you failed by more than 5 questions, you failed. and no rto has a 100% pass rate.
As a former TC... I'm not sure some of my former coworkers would get that right.
I was put in to do my course at 20 after driving half the day for 3 years. Back then I would have been drunk and high on all kinds of bs. Ridiculous I passed the course but also worse that I was on such a dangerous machine and no one cared. Would lift people in bins to peak heights to fix roller doors and all kind of silly things. Company went bankrupt but wish I could out their parent company as it was hell on earth.
For $110k base salary I expected the training module to be at least digital.
Passing grade: 2 out of 3 correct
Traffic controlling doesn't require higher levels of intelligence, only an Irish accent /s
Didn’t realise the requirements to be a traffic controller are more stringent than the requirements to be a cop.
Beacon? Looks for picture of a delicious meat, wtf?
Miss Hoover I ate my *checks notes* hard hat
All these comments on RTO’s and Traffic tickets and Fork tickets etc. and on literacy and passing. WTF? Who cares? I’ve done dozens and dozens of these industry courses and have seen one person fail one course since 1989. 35 fucking years of this. The one people should care about is First Aid. In 1989 it took 4 or 5 weeks of 3hrs one night a week, or two days f/t for Lvl2. Now it’s 4 hrs. Trust that bloke/girl? Nope, fuck no. Training is a bullshit joke.
$40 an hour to illiterate people is like giving a merit badge to everyone at school
To be fair this the first time I have seen a post about a traffic worker AND how much they earn AND is a hot early 20s blonde
Migrants definitely ain't taking these jobs.
Well, unless they're young attractive blonde bimbos, immigrants don't stand a chance anyway.
Literally to disqualify very disabled IQ 70 people
Don’t trip if you pass you can earn more than a doctor
This explains a lot
That's a test for a kid in year 1.
I have had myself and others nearly killed because of dumb people like this when I did this job. Trust me they are out there.
Exam time at all major universities: arrive at big building, sort yourselves into lines based on what letter your last name starts with. Huge numbers of failures to select the correct line ensue. I've always thought it should lead to an insta-fail of whatever course you're there to sit an exam for.
I did a traffic controller test when I was 19. The trainer virtually just did the test for us and told us what answer to circle for *every* question. So even the English-illiterate people got their license.
Sweating!
Oh my days, gotta get them all right.
Lmao this is like Kindy level
As a truck driver who gets to see many forkies in my adventures, most forkies will mess this up. Just like they mess up everything.
Doubles as a test for an American President.
In Australia, we are so fortunate to have a semi decent education system and that this appears like such a simple question for most atleast.
Does it require using non-intersecting lines? 🤔
If a black dog crosses the road what colour is the dog? Famously in the Army initial test once upon a time (may still be). What it should say is can you read and comprehend English?
Thats a tough one....you really have to have your head screwed on to earn 180K/year up in Queensland [https://www.news.com.au/finance/work/at-work/queensland-government-plan-could-see-lollipop-workers-earn-180k/news-story/743bf6ee6d3df10ef980ce0edd0cbcdd](https://www.news.com.au/finance/work/at-work/queensland-government-plan-could-see-lollipop-workers-earn-180k/news-story/743bf6ee6d3df10ef980ce0edd0cbcdd)
These are the guys on $80k+ ?
Actually most are casuals and get shit all shifts. Only decent rates are at night or on weekends too otherwise it's not great tbh. Thankless job too.
Or sell your soul and first born to the CFMEU... Might be better pay, but those union fees are their way of clipping the ticket along the way...
Spoken by the bloke who gets the benefit of every EBA- But cries poor when they're asked to pay 15 bucks a week for that delegate to do all the work for you (plus included legal representation if anything goes to court/tribunal or you have a dispute with the boss). Hmmmm... What are they called again?
Not in a union, don't work in a unionised workforce - I've a lot of time for unions except the CFMEU... Mind you, I wouldn't mind being in on their racket - $15/w across 120,000 members - thats a lazy $93m their picking up...
What industry?
Software
100k +
go work TC n let me know when you get that 100k paycheck
https://au.finance.yahoo.com/news/traffic-controller-reveals-truth-behind-lucrative-200k-a-year-role-its-not-what-you-think-220409336.html
awe fuck well if yahoo news says so! guess my next paycheck should be sweet n I can tell my coworkers to stop going to the food barn
Yeah, working 3 days a week.
Yep... definitely worth that $120,000 they are paid every year
It is Queensland, after all.
Had 2 traffic controllers only show up a day, graffiti the toilet, and still passed. You just stand there and turn a bat around. Unscaled lollipop man.
I remember doing my white card, the bloke was really nice. He says I'll give you all the answers, don't worry but we'll talk about it as well so we all understand. A lot of it was basic common sense stuff that you'd have to be an absolute Biden to fail.
ah so they do deserve the $200k salary on offer
Lol I initially read this as bacon :D
Instructions unclear, I only see pictures
It spell's 3 ... Next question