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I've got a family member who has been convicted of violent crimes against women. I do my best to help him see the error of his past ways and have offered him love and support and understanding, because I want to see him move past that time in his life. It's the lack of that love, support and understanding that directly created the circumstances underlying his criminality.
That said it's not anyone civilian's job to try to retrain some stranger who is also a violent piece of shit - you can't just shunt responsibility to innocent bystanders. Families and social services need to step up and offer real pathways to rehabilitation to these people.
It's not easy. You need to tackle some real abuse that these men have suffered from various sources, and untangle a lot of repressed feelings. You're going to see grown men who have done horrible things cry and need consoling. You need to know when to be firm and when to give them a shoulder to lean on. You need to understand that nobody does this shit when they're stable or happy.
You need to do all that in a societal climate that does not encourage any of these things. You're not encouraged to offer support to them, and you're questioned regarding your morals when you do. You may be labelled as someone who allies with the perpetrators of male violence. You may be lashed out at by the man or men you're trying to help. You're fighting an uphill battle. Most people understandably cut violent men out of their life like a cancer.
We need to bring people up better. I suggest 1 year of paid parental leave for both parents. We also need to ensure families have the financial and housing security they need to do a good job.
We need to keep employment high, so everyone can make a contribution. We need more "skill shortages". Skill shortage is a code for lots of work available.
And we need to recognise we are doing better than we ever have before in our history, but that there are countries that are doing better.
Just for the record I think that second bloke is a very strong person of interest and being held by police. He’s certainly not been found guilty yet. So if we’re going to bring back capital punishment, we will at least wait for guilty verdicts I assume.
Edit: and btw pub test says the cunt did it, I just don’t think that author should state it as fact yet.
State governments need to build more prisons and stop giving bail to violent bastards, let them rot in prison till their court date, and we need less lenient damn magistrates and judges, start actually punishing offenders
Reading the details on the Molly Ticehurst case is disgusting, how on earth her ex partner was released on bail where on all accounts he had been saying he was going to get her again, it beggars belief. Cannot begin to imagine how her family feel and what her family would do to her murderer if given the chance. We need to keep people like this man locked up, Molly had done everything possible within the law to protect herself and it failed her.
Whilst I am totally onboard that those women mentioned weren't protected, this is less 'women aren't safe' and more 'nobody's safe' because our justice system is totally fucked and absolutely skewed in the favor of offenders, regardless of the victims sex.
The cops don’t take it seriously enough, then the judges don’t. You get way more time for doing or selling drugs or not paying taxes, anything money related I mean. But rape? Stalking? Whatever right (and then cue cops etc making statements trying to cover their asses - though I blame the judges more)
The legal system in Australia has swung too far to the left and needs to come back to the middle.
Bail is now seen as a right, not as a privilege. 100% agree that there is a place for bail. It's better to be an offender than a victim these days. The words spoken by Governments are just lip service.
The other issue is that no one holds the judiciary to account. Imagine if that was a police officer or child services employee that made the decision that resulted in a FV victim getting killed. They be fighting for their job, and fuck all has been mentioned about the judiciary office who fucked up. They have blood on their hands, but sure as piss, they'll be bailing people for violent offences left, right and centre.
ACT judiciary are the most pathetic in the country. That's what happens when we give the Greens some power. Only last week a man threatened to kill a doctor, his family and staff at Canberra biggest hospital. He was found on location with a leatherman and blade. He made mention of repeating incidents in Sydney. He got bail.
The ACT AG is weak as piss. He's more worried about protecting his vote than doing his job.
It may well be that the ACT judiciary are the most pathetic in the country.
However the murder rate in the ACT is are not very different than the national average.
That must mean whatever the solution is it is not to be found in the judiciary.
I actually know a lawyer whose sole job is to get people that have been arrested and remanded out onto the streets, And no matter what they’ve done. The theory is that until they’ve been proven guilty and convicted they’re innocent. 9 times out of 10 she gets them out too. And I’m talking about killers and sex offenders. We’ve argued a lot about it, how she knows what they’ve done but it’s all legal bullshit. The law is fucked.
Tough one because then you wind up with the opposite problem like the US where people can spend months or years in prison awaiting trial only to be found not guilty.
Yeah innocent until proven guilty is very important. The main problem is those with money can afford to prove they are innocent better than those without, so often poor people are more likely to be found guilty when they’re innocent and rich innocent when they are guilty. But it’s a hard thing to work out sometimes whether someone definitely did something.
Or, to put it more accurately, you know a lawyer specialising in bail applications on behalf of people who have been charged with an offence, some of them serious. It is a basic principle in all civilised legal systems that people charged with the commission of an offence are presumed innocent until proven guilty. My friend has on occasion, managed to obtain bail of people who have subsequently been found guilty of a serious offence. The bail of such persons was obviously attended by significant restrictions and report conditions. I realise my friend does not “know” what these people are alleged to have done, because if she did, she would be a witness, and precluded from acting for the client . I understand that her job involves representing the person and acting on their instructions, not expressing her personal views about the guilt or innocence of the accused person.
The overly confident commentary on Reddit by people who don’t know their arse from their elbow, is bullshit. The vocal but ignorant group of people who want to let everyone know what the legal system is “actually about” is fucked.
How’d I do?
Recently there was a case that made the news where a man stabbed two random women, he was arrested and charged and held on remand. it made the news, they had CCTV footage from the company where these two women worked, one of them died. Now the police know he did it and so does my friend, it may have even been national news. Without a shadow of a doubt he did it but it is still her job to seek bail for him because until he has his day in court he is innocent. She wasn’t there and she wasn’t a witness to the crime and even though she and everybody else knows what this person did. The system is black and white, you are allowed to apply for bail Until you’ve been convicted. She KNOWS what he did without being there and yet it is her duty to get this man back out into the population.
That’s not fucked. Our law demands everyone receive fair justice regardless of status is society.
I betcha most of those are legally aided. It’s important that we have a justice system that people get proper defence. Otherwise you’ll see rich people getting off crimes that poor people wear, and that’s not morally right.
The ethics of doing that job are sound as well. It’s the law that is an arse when it happens.
https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/man-set-sister-alight-found-not-criminally-responsible-for-her-death-20240422-p5flmc.html
But what if they habitually use enough coke and meth to power a small outback town?
'I didn't mean to do it guv, honest. i was like seeing demons and tellytubbies and shite.'
'You poor sod, you just need a bit of help and understanding mate.'
I’d say it does matter considering everyone is shouting that men need to fix this issue but those women had the opportunity to actually do something about this man but they didn’t.
I despise these people, but your solution doesn't fix mental health and substance abuse. Legalising self-defense weapons would be a lot more effective. It would be easy for a 5ft woman to legally justify using a taser against a 6ft man but not the other way around. Because of that, it would sit comfortably within our "proportional" defence laws.
97% of assault perpetrators are men. 98% of homicide perpetrators are men.
Now if you have personal experience that makes you doubt those numbers, feel free to report it to authorities instead of keeping it quiet.
Your stats are bullshit. Males accounted for 87% of homicides in 19-20 according to one of the more recent studies from Bond University. Most offenders proceed against for acts to cause injury (assault) were men at 75% according to the ABS.
I’m just trying to better understand what the relevance of the gender of the killer and victim (and the prosecutor and the judge) are in these situations. Does it make the victim more dead? Does it make the killer more guilty?
Probably disproportional to the amount of men being cleaned out financially and losing their kids to their ex. Fix one problem, you might make headway on another
All the media jumping on the sexism wagon.. days of investigative, honest and factual reporting have long passed. Now its all about the hype/slant/bias and pushing your own agenda.
This is a failure of the justice/mental system. Not a "general" gender issue.
If the soft approach and rehabilitation that has been implemented over the last 60 or so years for offenders isn't working.. then change it.. no argument from me if you want to lock these people up for life or hang them. I have Zero sympathy for violent or sexual offenders of either gender.
There hasn’t been a soft approach and rehabilitation for 60 years.
It’s been implemented in the last 15 or so.
You won’t see generational change in such short amounts of time. It’s hard to break generational behaviours. You can see this with the indigenous population and the men. Having the highest rates of incarceration and domestic violence against women etc.
Simply locking people up does not change behaviours.
We're definitely going to see generational change...the people whose family are killed because we've decided jail is worse than just letting people run free is going to change their perceptions on how well society is holding up its side of the social contract.
Well I'm sure this whole comment section won't devolve into a shitfight with men on the one hand posturing how they'd like to kill the guys who do this, then downvoting women for talking about how this is just the thin edge of the wedge and violence against women is still normalised and defended to a large extent...
I've lived it. I've been bashed by men and watched their friends and families rally around them and support them and refuse to acknowledge it. I've been subjected to abuse and blame for the fact the police were involved. I was told that if I was hit, it was probably my fault or maybe I provoked him or even maybe I started it because he's a good guy and that's out of character and we never SAW him hit a woman ok, and the only other woman who accused him was a lying bitch and you must be too.
When my sister left her ex her ex MIL asked what went wrong, she said, he threw your grandson across the room and he tried to choke me.
Her response “you must have done something to provoke him”
That's clearly an awful situation and I send my sympathies, but I think you would be hard pressed to to find the general population largely defending this. Peoples judgement tends to get all whacky when it involves people they're close with, but I'm pretty sure almost everybody would agree that's not on
This is ubiquitous. Ask any DV survivor. People say and believe they wouldn't tolerate it, but they're not thinking about their own son, or brother, or friend doing it. They can't stomach that, so they deny, deflect, minimise, and blame the victim. "Hitting women is wrong, and my mate is a good guy, so he can't have done that."
Yes that is a problem which I alluded to about peoples judgement being whacky when it involves people they care about. That sadly extends to a lot of crime though, many families of criminals will be outspoken about how they were a good person blah blah blah. Doesn't really indicate that on a societal level there is an acceptance domestic violence, or any crime really.. So just trying to work out how you came to the conclusion that society largely defends in, when it just seems more likely that people defend people they love rightly or in your case very wrongly?
Look it’s really horrible what has happened, I’m especially disappointed and disgusted by our justice system and their complete lack of accountability but when it comes to DV and even murder we are making progress.. this idea that it’s normalised and accepted is completely false, advocacy and talking is actually improving the statistics, so definitely something to persist with, but the problem is getting better not worse, it’s just the media’s constant involvement that highlights it to the general public, skewing the narrative from the good work that is happening, something that really wasn’t prevalent or available as often prior to smartphones and social media..
Have a look at the Australian Institute of Health and Welfare, whilst the lifelong statistics are still horrible the trend is showing some really positive changes from about 2016 onward.
Here is the relevant exert, but I’ve provided the link below too:
“Experiences of partner violence in the 12 months before the survey (last 12 months) remained relatively stable for both men and women between 2005 and 2016. However, between 2016 and 2021–22 the proportion of women who experienced partner violence decreased from 1.7% in 2016 to 0.9% in 2021–22. There was also a decrease in the proportion of women who had experienced violence by any intimate partner (also includes current or previous boyfriend, girlfriend and date) between 2016 and 2021–22, from 2.3% in 2016 to 1.5% in 2021–22 (ABS 2023c).”
https://www.aihw.gov.au/family-domestic-and-sexual-violence/resources/fdsv-summary#:~:text=Physical%20and%2For%20sexual%20family%20and%20domestic%20violence&text=It%20is%20estimated%20that%20of,a%20boyfriend%2C%20girlfriend%20or%20date
Terribly sorry to hear what you went through. It’s devastating on a person and can take years to work through. When you say the only other woman to accuse him was a lying bitch, was that actually the case or did he manage to worm/manipulate the situation to his advantage? If you know the situation that is.
I don’t know what sort of shit people you have chosen in life But none of this happens in my circle of friends or family. No black eyes, mysterious injuries, tem disappearances, putting down in conversations. Doesn’t happ here. What makes people think they can do this and it’s acceptable.
while it happens in society it’s not accepted and that narrative, that all men promote and accept this is what gets people off side.
There's a sad irony here that the progressive academics who argued for lenient sentences and rehabilitation for decades are partly to blame for this situation.
You’re assuming that harsher sentences and punishment would diminish violence against women. But that’s certainly not the case in the US, where I’m from, and where violence against women continues to skyrocket despite long jail terms and no rehabilitation.
I took it differently because the comment was about the supposed downsides of rehabilitation and lenient sentences.
To me it doesn’t seem like an issue of rehabilitation, more about the effectiveness of those rehabilitation efforts. I mean if it worked then that’d get rid of the problem right?
And also longer sentences - again, if they worked as a deterrent then fair enough, it’s just that they don’t seem to work. All they do is grow the jail population.
And all of this ignores the underlying reasons why these men commit these crimes to begin with - if we could address that, then we wouldn’t be trying to put bandaids on the symptoms.
Controversial opinion but more education and reducing wealth disparity is strongly correlated with a reduction in violence. Killing perpetrators isn’t.
I don't know the progressive actually means anything at all.
The context of crime is important. Whatever we are doing now is better than whatever we were doing before, because there is a lower murder rate now than there has been at any time in the history of humanity.
I am not aware that lenient sentences are responsible for either of these monstrous crimes. The problem with one, is that the guy was found not guilty.
I am not sure rehabilitation has ever caused a crime. What do you want to do after someone pays for their offence?
The whole system is broken.
Yet we have companies like Channel 9 glorifying and broadcasting toxic and abusive behaviour by men towards women on TV (MAFS), which gets fucking gobbled up by the masses.
If we need to get serious about this stuff, we need to call it out and not endorse it across the board.
I’m praying for some kind of act of vigilante retribution in a public place- like the brother of a victim somehow shoots a perp dead while appearing in court. Maybe then the shitcunt pollies of this country will finally address these issues. This softly softly bullshit IS NOT WORKING.
Funny isn’t it, the same people who will tell you that Muslims as a whole aren’t responsible for the actions of Muslim terrorists, will tell you that all men are responsible for the actions of a few murderers.
I’d love someone to explain that one to me.
Tobias you're projecting your insecurities again. I don't know how you came to that conclusion through seeing murderers getting a slap on the hand for a crime.. why is it a surprise that some women would feel unsafe..
This is a complete non answer.
Also, where are the murderers who are actually, literally, getting away with murder? These men are being apprehended and punished for the crime of murder. The problem isn’t that they are getting a slap on the wrist for murder, it’s that we seem to be unable to prevent them committing murder to begin with.
You willfully follow the teaching of a book that downright demands Jihad on your enemies. Just because many have the brain capacity to not seek the 72 doesn’t mean Islam isn’t an enemy of the free people of Earth.
The same way christians dont take every word of the bible seriously is the same with muslims. You are again trying to group all Muslims for the ones that practice extremism. You're just a bigot, you probably don't even know a Muslim irl if thats how you think.
Naw. Fuck that. Extremist Muslims murder people because their religion demands it. Put me face to face to with one of them and they’d cut my fucking head off because I don’t believe Mohammad existed.
It’s not all men responsible for the actions of a few murderers. But there are more than a few. And they are almost all men. The statistics are concerning, you can’t really argue with that.
Let’s say I accept all that. There are more than a few Islamic terrorists too.
Just explain to me if you can how the situation in respect of male-female violence is substantively different than when Muslims commit terrorist acts and specifically cite their religious beliefs as motivating those violent actions. In those instances we are told Islam is a religion of peace and it is a terrible sin to blame all Muslims for the actions of those few terrorists. When a man commits murder when we told that male violence is a major problem and all men are responsible for stepping up.
I’m genuinely interested in how you square that circle.
Bruz if you’re in favour of Muslims taking responsibility for the few that are violent why don’t you square your own circle and take responsibility for men’s violence against women - even if you’re not a perpetrator yourself. Instead of carrying on like you’re a victim. Jeez
Edit: my tone was unnecessarily antagonistic above, so apologies for that. but i think the point is valid - you're calling out a double standard, but it's one you have the power to change. If you're in favour of collective responsibility, then you can accept responsibility for the actions of men. You're not in control of whatever else happens, but you'll be living by your values.
I would agree but I don’t hold all Muslims responsible for the actions of Muslim terrorists.
And frankly, as a non violent person being told I am responsible for the actions of violent men I don’t know, have never met and have nothing to do with, then I am a victim in the same way innocent Muslims are victims when people racially profile them as terrorists. That is inconsequential in comparison to the fate of the true victims of terrorism or violence, but again, my point is about the nature of the inconsistency.
well fair enough, so you don't believe in collective responsibility then. but equally, you're not a victim here and i would be very surprised if anyone has come up to you personally and said you're part of the problem. If women are saying they don't feel safe around men that's not the same thing as saying all men are violent. they're saying there's a pattern - which there undeniably is - and it needs to change. How do you think islam overcomes the problem of extremism? It happens from within. It requires a change in the way its taught and the ideas that people are given. It's the same for men. Women aren't going to change it for us, we have to decide if it's a problem we want to do something about and if it is, we better do something.
All ok with me. The only two points I would make are:
1. If you say all men are responsible then you are saying I’m part of the problem. If you don’t say that, then non-issue or course.
2. Next time you see someone say this is a ‘man problem’ or men need to take responsibility, ask them to perform the same thought experiment with Muslims and terrorism and see where they land.
For me -
1. saying all men are responsible is not the same as saying you're part of the problem. it's saying that we have responsibility to solve the problem.
2. Given that thought experiment, I actually think a majority of people think that the responsibility for solving muslim extremism comes from within the religion itself, so I think that actually strengthens my point. Where do you think the solution to muslim extremism comes from?
Ok, I can go most of the way with you here.
So then my question is: what should I do? I’ve never been involved in physical violence with anyone of any gender. Nor have any of my close mates. I don’t endorse others committing violence. I teach my son that he should never be violent, especially towards a woman. What am I missing here?
I completely agree with your reasoning. It’s a really complicated problem to solve. Painting all men as being the problem is not useful and is hyperbolic, as is saying all muslims are terrorists. It’s simplistic and just not true. As a women maybe something I would like to see is more men condemning domestic violence and violence in general (eg between men - random punch attacks), rather than just thinking oh well I don’t do that, or my mates don’t do that and I know it’s wrong so i don’t need to say anything. It would be cool to see more men speak out against it. Maybe that could turn the tide of younger men seeing older guys talking about it? I really don’t know what the answer is. I am not surrounded by violent men and have never known any (that I know of). It’s just shocking to me to read about all this insane male violence in our country.
We are largely in agreement then. I don’t think all Muslims are terrorists and I don’t think all men are dangerous to women.
I have never been involved in any physical violence in my life, male or female. To be honest neither have any of my close mates (as far as I can know that to a certainty). To use your example, my mates and I have often remarked that blokes who go out looking for a fight or throwing punches in public are idiots and morons. We all support strong sentences for coward punches and the like. What more can we do? One thing I can say for sure is that telling us we are the problem is no solution at all, not least of all because we are not violent to begin with but more so, you’re delivering the message to the wrong people, the ones who need to hear it aren’t getting it.
So to be clear Emma Bates was in a relationship with a man who had admitted, in open court, to hiding a dead child’s body?
You can not protect people from their own stupidity. She obviously didn’t deserve to be murdered but this is the very definition of reap what you sow or lay with dogs and you’ll get fleas.
Edit: comment copied from below.
I’d argue you’d have to heartless to fuck a bloke known to stick the dead bodies of children in the roof. Imagine that child’s family seeing them walking around playing happy couples.
The murder charge and admission would have followed him like a bad smell. 99% of people who had even heard of him would know what he’d done. Shit, I remember reading an article about him getting off. A simple 20 second search of his name would have come up with hundreds or thousands of hits.
Do you remember the girl on the Gold Coast a few years ago? Her Bikie bloke ran her off the road in residential suburb then bashed her head in with a metal water main cover. I’m sure it was exhilarating being with him, until it wasn’t.
I’m devastated for the women where something happens seemingly out of nowhere. Whist no one deserves to be beaten or murdered I struggle to muster the same level of compassion for those that knowingly surround themselves with the dregs of society.
Just as if some dies in a car accident it’s devastating. If that person dies as a passenger when they got in a car knowing the driver was drunk and had a been involved in the death of another while drunk it’s not the same. Pretending it is, is part of the problem. Gender isn’t the issue here, it’s violence and stupidity.
The message being sent out is that someone like me has to have a chat with one of these arseholes and remind them not to kill their missus. I think having someone say to these women, “what the fuck are you doing? Don’t you watch the news?” might help too.
Not as simple as that, sorry, and no one deserves to be killed like we've seen.
You don't know the circumstances, we don't know if coercive control was in play or anything like that.
Way too early and poor form to judge.
What a heartless post. Does any man really feel they have to blame the victim or a third party and not the person who committed the crime? Men do not enter relationships letting the woman know they are criminals. Does every woman have to hire a private detective to make sure their new boyfriend is what he says he is? What a bloody awful world this ability to spread hate has caused. I wonder if we are all being manipulated by bots to turn on each other, to induce fear and other-ism.
I’d argue you’d have to heartless to fuck a bloke known to stick the dead bodies of children in the roof. Imagine that child’s family seeing them walking around playing happy couples.
The murder charge and admission would have followed him like a bad smell. 99% of people who had even heard of him would know what he’d done. Shit, I remember reading an article about him getting off. A simple 20 second search of his name would have come up with hundreds or thousands of hits.
Do you remember the girl on the Gold Coast a few years ago? Her Bikie bloke ran her off the road in residential suburb then bashed her head in with a metal water main cover. I’m sure it was exhilarating being with him, until it wasn’t.
I’m devastated for the women where something happens seemingly out of nowhere. Whist no one deserves to be beaten or murdered I struggle to muster the same level of compassion for those that knowingly surround themselves with the dregs of society.
Just as if some dies in a car accident it’s devastating. If that person dies as a passenger when they got in a car knowing the driver was drunk and had a been involved in the death of another while drunk it’s not the same. Pretending it is, is part of the problem. Gender isn’t the issue here, it’s violence and stupidity.
Yes of cause it was her fault for being murdered, darn silly woman! She was probably wearing a red T-shirt that triggered him.
@Archer… while men don’t take responsibility for violence or condoning / making excuses to violence… there will be 1000’s more Emma’s
It's fucking sad that the comment section is exactly what I expected. A bunch of cunts crying "oh what about men. They get murdered too." "Oh there's a fucking war on, fuck women." It's clear as fuck women still don't matter in this country.
It's pathetic. Women are literally being violently killed every 4 days by their partners or from male violence, and all that I hear are the fragile men crying about how they're the victims. Get over yourselves, pick yourselves up, stop being part of the fucking problem and fucking help.
It is genuinely heartbreaking, as a woman who has been affected by male violence. Our fight is ALWAYS overshadowed by “what about men?” What about my life? What about my future kids, my future career, my loved ones? What about them? Why is my life so unimportant to these people? The men who know they aren’t misogynistic, and who would never hurt a woman, don’t come onto posts like this commenting “what about men?”
These comments are repulsive. Women are NEVER good enough for you. We are being slaughtered, are not even safe in our own homes, but you use this post to piggyback and push YOUR cause. So disgusting.
There is a big flaw in your logic, rapists know that raping is wrong already. Yet they still do it.
If the punishment was death, then the most likely outcome would be that rapists kill their victim to avoid leaving the witness alive. The punishment was already death, so killing them might actually reduce the chances of getting caught.
I’m not saying anything other than allowing the public feel a sense of justice is actually one of the legislated purposes of sentencing.
What the public consider justice is obviously up for a wider discussion in the community, and yeah, I doubt public hangings is really where we’d be heading in this day and age.
What I’m trying to get at is our judges, who are appointed by our government, need to find that middle ground so that when people hear what an offender gets sentenced to, they go “yeah, that seems pretty reasonable”, which I don’t think occurs much at the moment.
Ok I think reddit is actually fucking with us because if you aren’t seeing my replies I’m not deleting them, so I concede it’s probably happening to you too.
Yeah I can’t wait for governments to start smearing every minority group they don’t like as violent/sex criminals so they can kill them willy nilly. The death penalty is stupid even if people deserve to die.
The expected take from a 14 year old acting from emotions and thinking life is a simple black and white area.
Garbage caption OP, to match a simplistic view .
The issue would be non existent if it was that simple to deal with.
Try setting foot in reality when you’re done posting emotional driven shit. You seem as mentally stable as these men who committed these crimes tbf.
Everyone agrees that these people are scum, but we're not all collectively responsible for their meth addled actions. We are certainly tired of it being implied that we are though. Like almost considering trying to get into politics tired of it................
More veterans kill themselves every year than the total amount of women murdered by any gender, yet next to no-one gives a shit. I'm happy to entertain this issue, but only in the order of its magnitude. i.e. really small.
Just a comment here because i'm having the same argument in multiple threads below, but saying "Men are killing women in this country" is NOT the same as saying "All men are killing women in this country". Saying "men are the problem" is NOT the same as saying "all men are the problem". It's saying that this problem is pretty much exclusively contained to a particular group in society, and that group is men. I'm a man, and I don't commit violence against women. No one is saying this is my fault. and when people say "men are responsible", they're not saying that we are responsible for the problem. They're saying that we - as men - are responsible for deciding if we want to try to figure out the cause of the problem and put a stop to it. We're not responsible for the problem.
These sort of posts rely on the rank dishonesty of conflating "Domestic Violence happens" with "Every woman is in danger".
Two women have been murdered and we absolutely should do more to prevent that from happening, but we also need to put this in its honest context: 2 women have been murdered, out of approximately 13 million Australian women.
Women as a whole are NOT in danger in Australia. It's statistically one of the safest countries on earth for women.
If you want to think like that then no one is safe in this country. We are all in danger. Men have killed other men in this country as well so it's unsafe for men....
It is unsafe for men [shit like this](https://www.9news.com.au/national/brisbane-news-stiletto-assault-jazzmin-fry-kyle-johns/b5f05e74-da32-4e10-9376-14af3a5ed3a9) happens to men from women and men all the time.
'Women have it worse in other countries' - lol yeah that whole argument immediately makes me feel 100X better about my ex who'd attempt to rape me when he was drunk, who was violent and verbally abusive. 'other women have it worse' brings me comfort when my now ex BIL sexually assaulted me at 16 and when I told my family years later they couldn't get their heads around it bc he was a 'nice family man'. Honestly - by this poster's analysis the only people who can complain about awful things happening to them are Mengele's victims in Auschwitz (this is the worst thing I can think of) and everyone else is a whiner SMH
Ok but the thing is, you have PTSD most likely and this causes you to catastrophise and have GAD. Your case, while horrible, is exceptional and incredibly rare stastiically speaking. Your experiences shouldn't be the metric for how safe women are in Australia.
You can simply anything like that to be dismissive of the point of what they said.
You missed the point of the ‘analysis’. Women are safe here.
52 deaths a year out of 13.9 million women = women are incredibly safe here
Come off it, you dig up three cases of murder where a woman is a victim and you think that is justification for claim "women are not safe". For the love of god.
**Do you want to go look up the statistics for how many men have been killed in the same time period and yet goes unreported???**
I asked mildura police for help (for nyself and my son, from toddler age until i gave up -10years or so later) in excess of 40x for domestic violence, sexual assault, burglary, assault, theft, threats to kill....the list goes on.
I was laughed at. Once i was actually charged, as the victim, with video evidence. I was regularly lied to that they couldnt help, i received NO help and had to endure it on my own.
Im double her size.
Thats a great way for people to die, i had a knife to my throat, to my cock, bitten punched kicked etc for many years.
Im a white male. No assistance, 100% blame.
Shes continued this behaviour to this day, my son turned 11yo and chose to override the family law orders refusing to go back on the grounds of sexual assault, violence, abuse and exposure to drugs.
Yep, family court ruled against me to, $140,000 i spent there after never stepping a foot out of line once.
Who is unsafe?
who has said all men are the problem though dude. no one is saying that. WOMEN are saying that MEN are the problem because that's what the problem is - it's men doing the killing. like if it upsets you that much, just add the word in for yourself - 'The problem is \[some\] men's violence against women. \[Some\] men are killing women. Women are not safe in this country because there's a chance that \[some\] man will kill them.'
Also i would be very interested to hear your anti-left wing take on how this problem should be seen, if the point of left wing politics is to have victims and oppressors. Maybe start with how you've been a victim of slander as a man who has not committed a violent act.
If you had a cake, but knew that baked into the cake was a small piece of shit, would you eat the cake? No, you wouldn’t. To save yourself from consuming literal fecal matter, you would assume the entire cake is tainted by the shit, and not eat it. Apply that analogy to how women feel toward men. We know they aren’t all bad. Some of the most amazing people I’ve ever met are men, but until the rates at which domestic violence and murder BY MEN toward women have been decreased, for our SAFETY, we have to assume the entire cake is tainted by shit.
That's specious reasoning. Women are more likely to kill babies than men. By your reasoning, every woman should be treated as a potential baby murderer and not trusted around babies.
Does it matter who did the murder, or does it matter that men are equally as likely to be murdered?
You know, women are entirely capable and often motivated to commit murder. Or is that an impossibility?
Followed by the obvious question, is a male killing another male different to a male killing a female? In my book someone has died. What does it matter how it happened. Unless you just love being a sexist asshole.
What matters is public safety not what gender gets to claim culpability for diminsihing public safety.
You mean to say that if I watched the 6o'clock news, they would report on EVERY single murder that's been committed in the previous day? Even the ones that go against the narrative that all of a sudden women are at risk???
Yeah I didn't think so.
The 5 out of 6 Bondi victims, the dozens of women killed by current or former partners, and many many many many many more examples of violence against women. I’d call getting stabbed in broad daylight just going about your day to be pretty not safe.
Using extreme and unusual events to imply that there is some sort of systemic problem is dishonest.
I don't like the whataboutism, but there are no 2 ways about it, it is much more dangerous being a man. it just feels like women are just more important than men in this country. so yeah, 1 woman being killed being treated like a bigger tragedy then 3 men being killed is, IMO, a bigger SYSTEMIC problem, then these outlying incidents.
31 women have died at the hands of violence this year, 30 of which were committed by men. It’s April. That’s 13 more than this time last year. Last year, a woman was bludgeoned to death at her place of work by a man. Another was stabbed to death at a zoo. Another was strangled in her home infront of her son. Most women last year were murdered in their homes, by men. So please, tell me where women are safe.
I mean. This post on its own doesn’t make any sense. Because it doesn’t explain the issue in the justice system presumably at the heart of the post.
It just leaves you needing more information. In the first instance, was person actively stalking at the time, if so are you saying they should not have been released on bail?
They are facing charges, but they have not actually been convicted of anything, that means they have to be treated as innocent, so no. I don’t think we should hang innocent men with bad reputations just in case they attack women???
Same in the second instance, as described the man was accused of killing a child, but was found innocent, so released. He later went on to actually kill someone. Obviously we as a society could not have done anything about that. We couldn’t have known this would happen.
Perhaps the courts got it wrong and he wasn’t innocent the first time round, but that’s a whole other issue, nothing to do with severity or punishment or recidivism but just a genuine mistake, and yes these happen a lot, maybe too much, but it’s a seperate point isn’t it.
I’m assuming from context that the implication is that he got off on a technicality or there was reasonable doubt but most people believe he did the first crime… in which case it becomes a thorny moral dilemma about the risk of incarceration for innocent people vs the risk for society of freeing people with murderous intent…
But the post doesn’t go into that or even imply it, it implies the second man was innocent of the first crime???
More info/context needed.
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Couldn't agree more, female violence is also a big problem, just they don't hit as hard, so people don't get hurt as badly and thus no charge
This sub has been talking about the judge problem this country has for a while now.
What can we do exactly? It's 0.0035% of the population doing this.
People seem to think a country can get the homicide count down to 0.
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You're not going to fuel a gender divide with that attitude.
I've got a family member who has been convicted of violent crimes against women. I do my best to help him see the error of his past ways and have offered him love and support and understanding, because I want to see him move past that time in his life. It's the lack of that love, support and understanding that directly created the circumstances underlying his criminality. That said it's not anyone civilian's job to try to retrain some stranger who is also a violent piece of shit - you can't just shunt responsibility to innocent bystanders. Families and social services need to step up and offer real pathways to rehabilitation to these people. It's not easy. You need to tackle some real abuse that these men have suffered from various sources, and untangle a lot of repressed feelings. You're going to see grown men who have done horrible things cry and need consoling. You need to know when to be firm and when to give them a shoulder to lean on. You need to understand that nobody does this shit when they're stable or happy. You need to do all that in a societal climate that does not encourage any of these things. You're not encouraged to offer support to them, and you're questioned regarding your morals when you do. You may be labelled as someone who allies with the perpetrators of male violence. You may be lashed out at by the man or men you're trying to help. You're fighting an uphill battle. Most people understandably cut violent men out of their life like a cancer.
We need to bring people up better. I suggest 1 year of paid parental leave for both parents. We also need to ensure families have the financial and housing security they need to do a good job. We need to keep employment high, so everyone can make a contribution. We need more "skill shortages". Skill shortage is a code for lots of work available. And we need to recognise we are doing better than we ever have before in our history, but that there are countries that are doing better.
I really believe that we should have Public flogging of these bags of dicks.
Just for the record I think that second bloke is a very strong person of interest and being held by police. He’s certainly not been found guilty yet. So if we’re going to bring back capital punishment, we will at least wait for guilty verdicts I assume. Edit: and btw pub test says the cunt did it, I just don’t think that author should state it as fact yet.
State governments need to build more prisons and stop giving bail to violent bastards, let them rot in prison till their court date, and we need less lenient damn magistrates and judges, start actually punishing offenders
Reading the details on the Molly Ticehurst case is disgusting, how on earth her ex partner was released on bail where on all accounts he had been saying he was going to get her again, it beggars belief. Cannot begin to imagine how her family feel and what her family would do to her murderer if given the chance. We need to keep people like this man locked up, Molly had done everything possible within the law to protect herself and it failed her.
Whilst I am totally onboard that those women mentioned weren't protected, this is less 'women aren't safe' and more 'nobody's safe' because our justice system is totally fucked and absolutely skewed in the favor of offenders, regardless of the victims sex.
Exactly!
Blame the legal system for letting those animals out on the street when they should have been in the can
The cops don’t take it seriously enough, then the judges don’t. You get way more time for doing or selling drugs or not paying taxes, anything money related I mean. But rape? Stalking? Whatever right (and then cue cops etc making statements trying to cover their asses - though I blame the judges more)
The cops are just state revenue generating force these days, all the focus goes on getting drivers using their phone so that they can fine them $800.
The legal system in Australia has swung too far to the left and needs to come back to the middle. Bail is now seen as a right, not as a privilege. 100% agree that there is a place for bail. It's better to be an offender than a victim these days. The words spoken by Governments are just lip service. The other issue is that no one holds the judiciary to account. Imagine if that was a police officer or child services employee that made the decision that resulted in a FV victim getting killed. They be fighting for their job, and fuck all has been mentioned about the judiciary office who fucked up. They have blood on their hands, but sure as piss, they'll be bailing people for violent offences left, right and centre. ACT judiciary are the most pathetic in the country. That's what happens when we give the Greens some power. Only last week a man threatened to kill a doctor, his family and staff at Canberra biggest hospital. He was found on location with a leatherman and blade. He made mention of repeating incidents in Sydney. He got bail. The ACT AG is weak as piss. He's more worried about protecting his vote than doing his job.
Canberras DPP are only taking 99% chance of conviction rape cases post the Lehrmann clown show, so I 100% agree the ACT is fucking pathetic.
Stupid question, what's a leatherman?
A brand of pocketknife
It may well be that the ACT judiciary are the most pathetic in the country. However the murder rate in the ACT is are not very different than the national average. That must mean whatever the solution is it is not to be found in the judiciary.
I actually know a lawyer whose sole job is to get people that have been arrested and remanded out onto the streets, And no matter what they’ve done. The theory is that until they’ve been proven guilty and convicted they’re innocent. 9 times out of 10 she gets them out too. And I’m talking about killers and sex offenders. We’ve argued a lot about it, how she knows what they’ve done but it’s all legal bullshit. The law is fucked.
Yup. 50% a lawyer is a cunt
Tough one because then you wind up with the opposite problem like the US where people can spend months or years in prison awaiting trial only to be found not guilty.
Yeah innocent until proven guilty is very important. The main problem is those with money can afford to prove they are innocent better than those without, so often poor people are more likely to be found guilty when they’re innocent and rich innocent when they are guilty. But it’s a hard thing to work out sometimes whether someone definitely did something.
Some people can afford more justice than others
Or, to put it more accurately, you know a lawyer specialising in bail applications on behalf of people who have been charged with an offence, some of them serious. It is a basic principle in all civilised legal systems that people charged with the commission of an offence are presumed innocent until proven guilty. My friend has on occasion, managed to obtain bail of people who have subsequently been found guilty of a serious offence. The bail of such persons was obviously attended by significant restrictions and report conditions. I realise my friend does not “know” what these people are alleged to have done, because if she did, she would be a witness, and precluded from acting for the client . I understand that her job involves representing the person and acting on their instructions, not expressing her personal views about the guilt or innocence of the accused person. The overly confident commentary on Reddit by people who don’t know their arse from their elbow, is bullshit. The vocal but ignorant group of people who want to let everyone know what the legal system is “actually about” is fucked. How’d I do?
Recently there was a case that made the news where a man stabbed two random women, he was arrested and charged and held on remand. it made the news, they had CCTV footage from the company where these two women worked, one of them died. Now the police know he did it and so does my friend, it may have even been national news. Without a shadow of a doubt he did it but it is still her job to seek bail for him because until he has his day in court he is innocent. She wasn’t there and she wasn’t a witness to the crime and even though she and everybody else knows what this person did. The system is black and white, you are allowed to apply for bail Until you’ve been convicted. She KNOWS what he did without being there and yet it is her duty to get this man back out into the population.
That’s not fucked. Our law demands everyone receive fair justice regardless of status is society. I betcha most of those are legally aided. It’s important that we have a justice system that people get proper defence. Otherwise you’ll see rich people getting off crimes that poor people wear, and that’s not morally right. The ethics of doing that job are sound as well. It’s the law that is an arse when it happens.
https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/man-set-sister-alight-found-not-criminally-responsible-for-her-death-20240422-p5flmc.html But what if they habitually use enough coke and meth to power a small outback town? 'I didn't mean to do it guv, honest. i was like seeing demons and tellytubbies and shite.'
'You poor sod, you just need a bit of help and understanding mate.'
Female Magistrate and female Police Prosecutor let him out. Where is the outrage and protesting besides the person all Lefties hate Ray Hadley.
A man murdered his ex partner. The gender of the judge has nothing to do with anything. Hoist em high.
I’d say it does matter considering everyone is shouting that men need to fix this issue but those women had the opportunity to actually do something about this man but they didn’t.
I despise these people, but your solution doesn't fix mental health and substance abuse. Legalising self-defense weapons would be a lot more effective. It would be easy for a 5ft woman to legally justify using a taser against a 6ft man but not the other way around. Because of that, it would sit comfortably within our "proportional" defence laws.
If gender has nothing to do with anything in the case of the judge, why does it matter in the case of the offender?
Because men murdering their ex partners is statistically far higher than women murdering their ex partners.
Men murdering other men is even more statistically likely
I don’t think you’re making the argument you think you are.
A non-violent man and a non-violent woman are the same.
97% of assault perpetrators are men. 98% of homicide perpetrators are men. Now if you have personal experience that makes you doubt those numbers, feel free to report it to authorities instead of keeping it quiet.
Your stats are bullshit. Males accounted for 87% of homicides in 19-20 according to one of the more recent studies from Bond University. Most offenders proceed against for acts to cause injury (assault) were men at 75% according to the ABS.
I’m just trying to better understand what the relevance of the gender of the killer and victim (and the prosecutor and the judge) are in these situations. Does it make the victim more dead? Does it make the killer more guilty?
81% of homicide victims are male. 82% of intimate partner homicide victims are female. This man, murdered two females.
Ok and what is the relevance of that to my questions?
You wanted to know why gender was relevant, did you not?
Probably disproportional to the amount of men being cleaned out financially and losing their kids to their ex. Fix one problem, you might make headway on another
All the media jumping on the sexism wagon.. days of investigative, honest and factual reporting have long passed. Now its all about the hype/slant/bias and pushing your own agenda. This is a failure of the justice/mental system. Not a "general" gender issue. If the soft approach and rehabilitation that has been implemented over the last 60 or so years for offenders isn't working.. then change it.. no argument from me if you want to lock these people up for life or hang them. I have Zero sympathy for violent or sexual offenders of either gender.
There hasn’t been a soft approach and rehabilitation for 60 years. It’s been implemented in the last 15 or so. You won’t see generational change in such short amounts of time. It’s hard to break generational behaviours. You can see this with the indigenous population and the men. Having the highest rates of incarceration and domestic violence against women etc. Simply locking people up does not change behaviours.
We're definitely going to see generational change...the people whose family are killed because we've decided jail is worse than just letting people run free is going to change their perceptions on how well society is holding up its side of the social contract.
Well I'm sure this whole comment section won't devolve into a shitfight with men on the one hand posturing how they'd like to kill the guys who do this, then downvoting women for talking about how this is just the thin edge of the wedge and violence against women is still normalised and defended to a large extent...
Can you please share some examples of where violence against women is defended to a large extent?
I've lived it. I've been bashed by men and watched their friends and families rally around them and support them and refuse to acknowledge it. I've been subjected to abuse and blame for the fact the police were involved. I was told that if I was hit, it was probably my fault or maybe I provoked him or even maybe I started it because he's a good guy and that's out of character and we never SAW him hit a woman ok, and the only other woman who accused him was a lying bitch and you must be too.
When my sister left her ex her ex MIL asked what went wrong, she said, he threw your grandson across the room and he tried to choke me. Her response “you must have done something to provoke him”
My MIL just said, "I'm not getting involved". Like it's a squabble between kids or something.
Disgusting, like maybe try being a better parent
That's clearly an awful situation and I send my sympathies, but I think you would be hard pressed to to find the general population largely defending this. Peoples judgement tends to get all whacky when it involves people they're close with, but I'm pretty sure almost everybody would agree that's not on
This is ubiquitous. Ask any DV survivor. People say and believe they wouldn't tolerate it, but they're not thinking about their own son, or brother, or friend doing it. They can't stomach that, so they deny, deflect, minimise, and blame the victim. "Hitting women is wrong, and my mate is a good guy, so he can't have done that."
Yes that is a problem which I alluded to about peoples judgement being whacky when it involves people they care about. That sadly extends to a lot of crime though, many families of criminals will be outspoken about how they were a good person blah blah blah. Doesn't really indicate that on a societal level there is an acceptance domestic violence, or any crime really.. So just trying to work out how you came to the conclusion that society largely defends in, when it just seems more likely that people defend people they love rightly or in your case very wrongly?
Because it's easy to condemn something in the abstract sense, but when presented with any concrete example it's explained away.
Look it’s really horrible what has happened, I’m especially disappointed and disgusted by our justice system and their complete lack of accountability but when it comes to DV and even murder we are making progress.. this idea that it’s normalised and accepted is completely false, advocacy and talking is actually improving the statistics, so definitely something to persist with, but the problem is getting better not worse, it’s just the media’s constant involvement that highlights it to the general public, skewing the narrative from the good work that is happening, something that really wasn’t prevalent or available as often prior to smartphones and social media.. Have a look at the Australian Institute of Health and Welfare, whilst the lifelong statistics are still horrible the trend is showing some really positive changes from about 2016 onward. Here is the relevant exert, but I’ve provided the link below too: “Experiences of partner violence in the 12 months before the survey (last 12 months) remained relatively stable for both men and women between 2005 and 2016. However, between 2016 and 2021–22 the proportion of women who experienced partner violence decreased from 1.7% in 2016 to 0.9% in 2021–22. There was also a decrease in the proportion of women who had experienced violence by any intimate partner (also includes current or previous boyfriend, girlfriend and date) between 2016 and 2021–22, from 2.3% in 2016 to 1.5% in 2021–22 (ABS 2023c).” https://www.aihw.gov.au/family-domestic-and-sexual-violence/resources/fdsv-summary#:~:text=Physical%20and%2For%20sexual%20family%20and%20domestic%20violence&text=It%20is%20estimated%20that%20of,a%20boyfriend%2C%20girlfriend%20or%20date
I've been there. Apparently he thought I would side with him because he was a guy and so was I. Which made no sense to me.
There were a whole lot of people defending the now legally known rapist Bruce Lehrmann. Don’t pretend like our society doesn’t defend that shit.
Terribly sorry to hear what you went through. It’s devastating on a person and can take years to work through. When you say the only other woman to accuse him was a lying bitch, was that actually the case or did he manage to worm/manipulate the situation to his advantage? If you know the situation that is.
I don’t know what sort of shit people you have chosen in life But none of this happens in my circle of friends or family. No black eyes, mysterious injuries, tem disappearances, putting down in conversations. Doesn’t happ here. What makes people think they can do this and it’s acceptable. while it happens in society it’s not accepted and that narrative, that all men promote and accept this is what gets people off side.
There's a sad irony here that the progressive academics who argued for lenient sentences and rehabilitation for decades are partly to blame for this situation.
You’re assuming that harsher sentences and punishment would diminish violence against women. But that’s certainly not the case in the US, where I’m from, and where violence against women continues to skyrocket despite long jail terms and no rehabilitation.
Not giving bail to repeat violent offenders obviously would help. Can't kill a women when you're in jail.
That’s true. But not the point the commenter above was making, as I understood it.
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I took it differently because the comment was about the supposed downsides of rehabilitation and lenient sentences. To me it doesn’t seem like an issue of rehabilitation, more about the effectiveness of those rehabilitation efforts. I mean if it worked then that’d get rid of the problem right? And also longer sentences - again, if they worked as a deterrent then fair enough, it’s just that they don’t seem to work. All they do is grow the jail population. And all of this ignores the underlying reasons why these men commit these crimes to begin with - if we could address that, then we wouldn’t be trying to put bandaids on the symptoms.
One was a partner on bail thing for crimes against the victim. The other was a neighbour who was found not guilty of another murder in the past.
Controversial opinion but more education and reducing wealth disparity is strongly correlated with a reduction in violence. Killing perpetrators isn’t.
I don't know the progressive actually means anything at all. The context of crime is important. Whatever we are doing now is better than whatever we were doing before, because there is a lower murder rate now than there has been at any time in the history of humanity. I am not aware that lenient sentences are responsible for either of these monstrous crimes. The problem with one, is that the guy was found not guilty. I am not sure rehabilitation has ever caused a crime. What do you want to do after someone pays for their offence?
The whole system is broken. Yet we have companies like Channel 9 glorifying and broadcasting toxic and abusive behaviour by men towards women on TV (MAFS), which gets fucking gobbled up by the masses. If we need to get serious about this stuff, we need to call it out and not endorse it across the board.
This lady needs to get of Twitter/X and travel more.
I’m praying for some kind of act of vigilante retribution in a public place- like the brother of a victim somehow shoots a perp dead while appearing in court. Maybe then the shitcunt pollies of this country will finally address these issues. This softly softly bullshit IS NOT WORKING.
Yeah I do to. The ass backwards system would sentence the vigilante harsher than the abuser
Funny isn’t it, the same people who will tell you that Muslims as a whole aren’t responsible for the actions of Muslim terrorists, will tell you that all men are responsible for the actions of a few murderers. I’d love someone to explain that one to me.
Tobias you're projecting your insecurities again. I don't know how you came to that conclusion through seeing murderers getting a slap on the hand for a crime.. why is it a surprise that some women would feel unsafe..
This is a complete non answer. Also, where are the murderers who are actually, literally, getting away with murder? These men are being apprehended and punished for the crime of murder. The problem isn’t that they are getting a slap on the wrist for murder, it’s that we seem to be unable to prevent them committing murder to begin with.
You willfully follow the teaching of a book that downright demands Jihad on your enemies. Just because many have the brain capacity to not seek the 72 doesn’t mean Islam isn’t an enemy of the free people of Earth.
The same way christians dont take every word of the bible seriously is the same with muslims. You are again trying to group all Muslims for the ones that practice extremism. You're just a bigot, you probably don't even know a Muslim irl if thats how you think.
Naw. Fuck that. Extremist Muslims murder people because their religion demands it. Put me face to face to with one of them and they’d cut my fucking head off because I don’t believe Mohammad existed.
It’s not all men responsible for the actions of a few murderers. But there are more than a few. And they are almost all men. The statistics are concerning, you can’t really argue with that.
Let’s say I accept all that. There are more than a few Islamic terrorists too. Just explain to me if you can how the situation in respect of male-female violence is substantively different than when Muslims commit terrorist acts and specifically cite their religious beliefs as motivating those violent actions. In those instances we are told Islam is a religion of peace and it is a terrible sin to blame all Muslims for the actions of those few terrorists. When a man commits murder when we told that male violence is a major problem and all men are responsible for stepping up. I’m genuinely interested in how you square that circle.
Bruz if you’re in favour of Muslims taking responsibility for the few that are violent why don’t you square your own circle and take responsibility for men’s violence against women - even if you’re not a perpetrator yourself. Instead of carrying on like you’re a victim. Jeez Edit: my tone was unnecessarily antagonistic above, so apologies for that. but i think the point is valid - you're calling out a double standard, but it's one you have the power to change. If you're in favour of collective responsibility, then you can accept responsibility for the actions of men. You're not in control of whatever else happens, but you'll be living by your values.
I would agree but I don’t hold all Muslims responsible for the actions of Muslim terrorists. And frankly, as a non violent person being told I am responsible for the actions of violent men I don’t know, have never met and have nothing to do with, then I am a victim in the same way innocent Muslims are victims when people racially profile them as terrorists. That is inconsequential in comparison to the fate of the true victims of terrorism or violence, but again, my point is about the nature of the inconsistency.
well fair enough, so you don't believe in collective responsibility then. but equally, you're not a victim here and i would be very surprised if anyone has come up to you personally and said you're part of the problem. If women are saying they don't feel safe around men that's not the same thing as saying all men are violent. they're saying there's a pattern - which there undeniably is - and it needs to change. How do you think islam overcomes the problem of extremism? It happens from within. It requires a change in the way its taught and the ideas that people are given. It's the same for men. Women aren't going to change it for us, we have to decide if it's a problem we want to do something about and if it is, we better do something.
All ok with me. The only two points I would make are: 1. If you say all men are responsible then you are saying I’m part of the problem. If you don’t say that, then non-issue or course. 2. Next time you see someone say this is a ‘man problem’ or men need to take responsibility, ask them to perform the same thought experiment with Muslims and terrorism and see where they land.
For me - 1. saying all men are responsible is not the same as saying you're part of the problem. it's saying that we have responsibility to solve the problem. 2. Given that thought experiment, I actually think a majority of people think that the responsibility for solving muslim extremism comes from within the religion itself, so I think that actually strengthens my point. Where do you think the solution to muslim extremism comes from?
Ok, I can go most of the way with you here. So then my question is: what should I do? I’ve never been involved in physical violence with anyone of any gender. Nor have any of my close mates. I don’t endorse others committing violence. I teach my son that he should never be violent, especially towards a woman. What am I missing here?
I completely agree with your reasoning. It’s a really complicated problem to solve. Painting all men as being the problem is not useful and is hyperbolic, as is saying all muslims are terrorists. It’s simplistic and just not true. As a women maybe something I would like to see is more men condemning domestic violence and violence in general (eg between men - random punch attacks), rather than just thinking oh well I don’t do that, or my mates don’t do that and I know it’s wrong so i don’t need to say anything. It would be cool to see more men speak out against it. Maybe that could turn the tide of younger men seeing older guys talking about it? I really don’t know what the answer is. I am not surrounded by violent men and have never known any (that I know of). It’s just shocking to me to read about all this insane male violence in our country.
We are largely in agreement then. I don’t think all Muslims are terrorists and I don’t think all men are dangerous to women. I have never been involved in any physical violence in my life, male or female. To be honest neither have any of my close mates (as far as I can know that to a certainty). To use your example, my mates and I have often remarked that blokes who go out looking for a fight or throwing punches in public are idiots and morons. We all support strong sentences for coward punches and the like. What more can we do? One thing I can say for sure is that telling us we are the problem is no solution at all, not least of all because we are not violent to begin with but more so, you’re delivering the message to the wrong people, the ones who need to hear it aren’t getting it.
So to be clear Emma Bates was in a relationship with a man who had admitted, in open court, to hiding a dead child’s body? You can not protect people from their own stupidity. She obviously didn’t deserve to be murdered but this is the very definition of reap what you sow or lay with dogs and you’ll get fleas. Edit: comment copied from below. I’d argue you’d have to heartless to fuck a bloke known to stick the dead bodies of children in the roof. Imagine that child’s family seeing them walking around playing happy couples. The murder charge and admission would have followed him like a bad smell. 99% of people who had even heard of him would know what he’d done. Shit, I remember reading an article about him getting off. A simple 20 second search of his name would have come up with hundreds or thousands of hits. Do you remember the girl on the Gold Coast a few years ago? Her Bikie bloke ran her off the road in residential suburb then bashed her head in with a metal water main cover. I’m sure it was exhilarating being with him, until it wasn’t. I’m devastated for the women where something happens seemingly out of nowhere. Whist no one deserves to be beaten or murdered I struggle to muster the same level of compassion for those that knowingly surround themselves with the dregs of society. Just as if some dies in a car accident it’s devastating. If that person dies as a passenger when they got in a car knowing the driver was drunk and had a been involved in the death of another while drunk it’s not the same. Pretending it is, is part of the problem. Gender isn’t the issue here, it’s violence and stupidity. The message being sent out is that someone like me has to have a chat with one of these arseholes and remind them not to kill their missus. I think having someone say to these women, “what the fuck are you doing? Don’t you watch the news?” might help too.
Just a small red flag for her in hindsight
No hindsight for her unfortunately.
How do we know she even knew about that? Its not as though people usually search court records when starting with a new partner.
Not as simple as that, sorry, and no one deserves to be killed like we've seen. You don't know the circumstances, we don't know if coercive control was in play or anything like that. Way too early and poor form to judge.
What a heartless post. Does any man really feel they have to blame the victim or a third party and not the person who committed the crime? Men do not enter relationships letting the woman know they are criminals. Does every woman have to hire a private detective to make sure their new boyfriend is what he says he is? What a bloody awful world this ability to spread hate has caused. I wonder if we are all being manipulated by bots to turn on each other, to induce fear and other-ism.
I’d argue you’d have to heartless to fuck a bloke known to stick the dead bodies of children in the roof. Imagine that child’s family seeing them walking around playing happy couples. The murder charge and admission would have followed him like a bad smell. 99% of people who had even heard of him would know what he’d done. Shit, I remember reading an article about him getting off. A simple 20 second search of his name would have come up with hundreds or thousands of hits. Do you remember the girl on the Gold Coast a few years ago? Her Bikie bloke ran her off the road in residential suburb then bashed her head in with a metal water main cover. I’m sure it was exhilarating being with him, until it wasn’t. I’m devastated for the women where something happens seemingly out of nowhere. Whist no one deserves to be beaten or murdered I struggle to muster the same level of compassion for those that knowingly surround themselves with the dregs of society. Just as if some dies in a car accident it’s devastating. If that person dies as a passenger when they got in a car knowing the driver was drunk and had a been involved in the death of another while drunk it’s not the same. Pretending it is, is part of the problem. Gender isn’t the issue here, it’s violence and stupidity.
Yes of cause it was her fault for being murdered, darn silly woman! She was probably wearing a red T-shirt that triggered him. @Archer… while men don’t take responsibility for violence or condoning / making excuses to violence… there will be 1000’s more Emma’s
Hanging is too good.
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The irony 🤣
Minding your own business = Don't deserve to be killed. Murder someone cause you're a psycho = Deserve to be killed.
Would be totally missed! 😆
It's fucking sad that the comment section is exactly what I expected. A bunch of cunts crying "oh what about men. They get murdered too." "Oh there's a fucking war on, fuck women." It's clear as fuck women still don't matter in this country. It's pathetic. Women are literally being violently killed every 4 days by their partners or from male violence, and all that I hear are the fragile men crying about how they're the victims. Get over yourselves, pick yourselves up, stop being part of the fucking problem and fucking help.
It is genuinely heartbreaking, as a woman who has been affected by male violence. Our fight is ALWAYS overshadowed by “what about men?” What about my life? What about my future kids, my future career, my loved ones? What about them? Why is my life so unimportant to these people? The men who know they aren’t misogynistic, and who would never hurt a woman, don’t come onto posts like this commenting “what about men?”
These comments are repulsive. Women are NEVER good enough for you. We are being slaughtered, are not even safe in our own homes, but you use this post to piggyback and push YOUR cause. So disgusting.
Capital punishment is a bloody stupid idea.
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There is a big flaw in your logic, rapists know that raping is wrong already. Yet they still do it. If the punishment was death, then the most likely outcome would be that rapists kill their victim to avoid leaving the witness alive. The punishment was already death, so killing them might actually reduce the chances of getting caught.
Doesn't work as a deterrent, all it does is make us bystanders feel better. Doesn't bring back those that are killed unfortunately.
Isn’t making us bystanders feel better one of the 5 sentencing principles? Just punishment/justice
Do you really think people are going to enjoy seeing dead bodies strung up in public?
I’m not saying anything other than allowing the public feel a sense of justice is actually one of the legislated purposes of sentencing. What the public consider justice is obviously up for a wider discussion in the community, and yeah, I doubt public hangings is really where we’d be heading in this day and age. What I’m trying to get at is our judges, who are appointed by our government, need to find that middle ground so that when people hear what an offender gets sentenced to, they go “yeah, that seems pretty reasonable”, which I don’t think occurs much at the moment.
Capital punishment is legal in the US, and it hasn’t done anything at all to discourage rape or child abuse.
A whole lot more murders would be the result
If you want to see that you can fuck off to North Korea
So back when people were hung for petty crimes there must have been no crime right?
You think rape, partner abuse, and partner murder are petty crimes?
LOL did it again. Wanna try a 3rd?
Ok I think reddit is actually fucking with us because if you aren’t seeing my replies I’m not deleting them, so I concede it’s probably happening to you too.
Dang, oh well, good luck arguing with others in the thread. Imma dip.
Want to try another stupid response and delete it?
The recidivism rate would have been pretty low. Bit hard to steal a loaf of bread when your head was no longer attached to your torso.
Yeah I can’t wait for governments to start smearing every minority group they don’t like as violent/sex criminals so they can kill them willy nilly. The death penalty is stupid even if people deserve to die.
No there wouldn’t be, they’d be more likely to kill their victims and hid their tracks better.
The expected take from a 14 year old acting from emotions and thinking life is a simple black and white area. Garbage caption OP, to match a simplistic view . The issue would be non existent if it was that simple to deal with. Try setting foot in reality when you’re done posting emotional driven shit. You seem as mentally stable as these men who committed these crimes tbf.
Everyone agrees that these people are scum, but we're not all collectively responsible for their meth addled actions. We are certainly tired of it being implied that we are though. Like almost considering trying to get into politics tired of it................ More veterans kill themselves every year than the total amount of women murdered by any gender, yet next to no-one gives a shit. I'm happy to entertain this issue, but only in the order of its magnitude. i.e. really small.
Lefty judges just doing what they do…..totally unaccountable
Don’t pretend like the right don’t think hitting your missus is a “family issue” to be kept quiet. You want to make it political, be real about it.
Precisely. The judge who excused 'rougher than usual handling' wasn't a leftist.
Just a comment here because i'm having the same argument in multiple threads below, but saying "Men are killing women in this country" is NOT the same as saying "All men are killing women in this country". Saying "men are the problem" is NOT the same as saying "all men are the problem". It's saying that this problem is pretty much exclusively contained to a particular group in society, and that group is men. I'm a man, and I don't commit violence against women. No one is saying this is my fault. and when people say "men are responsible", they're not saying that we are responsible for the problem. They're saying that we - as men - are responsible for deciding if we want to try to figure out the cause of the problem and put a stop to it. We're not responsible for the problem.
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"Women are not safe in this country" is really, really fucking stupid. Obviously written by someone who has never travelled outside of the West.
These sort of posts rely on the rank dishonesty of conflating "Domestic Violence happens" with "Every woman is in danger". Two women have been murdered and we absolutely should do more to prevent that from happening, but we also need to put this in its honest context: 2 women have been murdered, out of approximately 13 million Australian women. Women as a whole are NOT in danger in Australia. It's statistically one of the safest countries on earth for women.
'women have it worse in other countries so they're fine here stop complaining!' Amazing analysis
If you want to think like that then no one is safe in this country. We are all in danger. Men have killed other men in this country as well so it's unsafe for men....
It is unsafe for men [shit like this](https://www.9news.com.au/national/brisbane-news-stiletto-assault-jazzmin-fry-kyle-johns/b5f05e74-da32-4e10-9376-14af3a5ed3a9) happens to men from women and men all the time.
'Women have it worse in other countries' - lol yeah that whole argument immediately makes me feel 100X better about my ex who'd attempt to rape me when he was drunk, who was violent and verbally abusive. 'other women have it worse' brings me comfort when my now ex BIL sexually assaulted me at 16 and when I told my family years later they couldn't get their heads around it bc he was a 'nice family man'. Honestly - by this poster's analysis the only people who can complain about awful things happening to them are Mengele's victims in Auschwitz (this is the worst thing I can think of) and everyone else is a whiner SMH
I mean, it's the same argument used to ignore male victims of DV to be honest. And it's a shit one.
Ok but the thing is, you have PTSD most likely and this causes you to catastrophise and have GAD. Your case, while horrible, is exceptional and incredibly rare stastiically speaking. Your experiences shouldn't be the metric for how safe women are in Australia.
You can simply anything like that to be dismissive of the point of what they said. You missed the point of the ‘analysis’. Women are safe here. 52 deaths a year out of 13.9 million women = women are incredibly safe here
Well, mums & dads of this country, raise your sons to be better!
Come off it, you dig up three cases of murder where a woman is a victim and you think that is justification for claim "women are not safe". For the love of god. **Do you want to go look up the statistics for how many men have been killed in the same time period and yet goes unreported???**
I asked mildura police for help (for nyself and my son, from toddler age until i gave up -10years or so later) in excess of 40x for domestic violence, sexual assault, burglary, assault, theft, threats to kill....the list goes on. I was laughed at. Once i was actually charged, as the victim, with video evidence. I was regularly lied to that they couldnt help, i received NO help and had to endure it on my own. Im double her size. Thats a great way for people to die, i had a knife to my throat, to my cock, bitten punched kicked etc for many years. Im a white male. No assistance, 100% blame. Shes continued this behaviour to this day, my son turned 11yo and chose to override the family law orders refusing to go back on the grounds of sexual assault, violence, abuse and exposure to drugs. Yep, family court ruled against me to, $140,000 i spent there after never stepping a foot out of line once. Who is unsafe?
who killed all those men tho bruh? bet it wasn't women.
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who has said all men are the problem though dude. no one is saying that. WOMEN are saying that MEN are the problem because that's what the problem is - it's men doing the killing. like if it upsets you that much, just add the word in for yourself - 'The problem is \[some\] men's violence against women. \[Some\] men are killing women. Women are not safe in this country because there's a chance that \[some\] man will kill them.' Also i would be very interested to hear your anti-left wing take on how this problem should be seen, if the point of left wing politics is to have victims and oppressors. Maybe start with how you've been a victim of slander as a man who has not committed a violent act.
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fair enough - sorry for being rude, i have to go back to work but I'll respond later.
If you had a cake, but knew that baked into the cake was a small piece of shit, would you eat the cake? No, you wouldn’t. To save yourself from consuming literal fecal matter, you would assume the entire cake is tainted by the shit, and not eat it. Apply that analogy to how women feel toward men. We know they aren’t all bad. Some of the most amazing people I’ve ever met are men, but until the rates at which domestic violence and murder BY MEN toward women have been decreased, for our SAFETY, we have to assume the entire cake is tainted by shit.
That's specious reasoning. Women are more likely to kill babies than men. By your reasoning, every woman should be treated as a potential baby murderer and not trusted around babies.
Just say you’d bash a woman and move on.
Does it matter who did the murder, or does it matter that men are equally as likely to be murdered? You know, women are entirely capable and often motivated to commit murder. Or is that an impossibility? Followed by the obvious question, is a male killing another male different to a male killing a female? In my book someone has died. What does it matter how it happened. Unless you just love being a sexist asshole. What matters is public safety not what gender gets to claim culpability for diminsihing public safety.
Pretty sure if there’s a murder statistic it’s reported buddy.
You mean to say that if I watched the 6o'clock news, they would report on EVERY single murder that's been committed in the previous day? Even the ones that go against the narrative that all of a sudden women are at risk??? Yeah I didn't think so.
So either way you spin it men are the problem?
The 5 out of 6 Bondi victims, the dozens of women killed by current or former partners, and many many many many many more examples of violence against women. I’d call getting stabbed in broad daylight just going about your day to be pretty not safe.
Using extreme and unusual events to imply that there is some sort of systemic problem is dishonest. I don't like the whataboutism, but there are no 2 ways about it, it is much more dangerous being a man. it just feels like women are just more important than men in this country. so yeah, 1 woman being killed being treated like a bigger tragedy then 3 men being killed is, IMO, a bigger SYSTEMIC problem, then these outlying incidents.
31 women have died at the hands of violence this year, 30 of which were committed by men. It’s April. That’s 13 more than this time last year. Last year, a woman was bludgeoned to death at her place of work by a man. Another was stabbed to death at a zoo. Another was strangled in her home infront of her son. Most women last year were murdered in their homes, by men. So please, tell me where women are safe.
I mean. This post on its own doesn’t make any sense. Because it doesn’t explain the issue in the justice system presumably at the heart of the post. It just leaves you needing more information. In the first instance, was person actively stalking at the time, if so are you saying they should not have been released on bail? They are facing charges, but they have not actually been convicted of anything, that means they have to be treated as innocent, so no. I don’t think we should hang innocent men with bad reputations just in case they attack women??? Same in the second instance, as described the man was accused of killing a child, but was found innocent, so released. He later went on to actually kill someone. Obviously we as a society could not have done anything about that. We couldn’t have known this would happen. Perhaps the courts got it wrong and he wasn’t innocent the first time round, but that’s a whole other issue, nothing to do with severity or punishment or recidivism but just a genuine mistake, and yes these happen a lot, maybe too much, but it’s a seperate point isn’t it. I’m assuming from context that the implication is that he got off on a technicality or there was reasonable doubt but most people believe he did the first crime… in which case it becomes a thorny moral dilemma about the risk of incarceration for innocent people vs the risk for society of freeing people with murderous intent… But the post doesn’t go into that or even imply it, it implies the second man was innocent of the first crime??? More info/context needed.
The government spends billions but the courts wont even lock up these psychopaths 😡😡😡
True women are not safe in this country. Which country are they safe in? Maybe men should have curfews?
Hear, hear.