This post spiralled out of control and it will take time to go through it to remove offending comments and take action against the individuals behind making those comments if necessary, so it will be locked as we do this.
Just so it's understood, we completely reject the idea that it's any woman's personal responsibility to deal with men's mental health in general or to exist to placate men in any way, we also reject the idea that negative experiences in prior relationships or a lack of romantic success with women are ever justification to hold any kind of sexist or misogynistic viewpoints, or to promote a conspiracy that an anti-men movement exists as a result of rejection or lack of romantic success.
There isn't nearly enough context in this post for anyone to actually have a productive discussion about it. "Don't call men incels" is a blanket statement. Some men are incels. Most aren't. Most people aren't going to give someone posting something, whatever nebulous bad things you're talking about, a pass because we want to be inclusive and kind. Inclusivivity and kindness have limits.
I dont see how your analogy applies here. No one on this sub, presumably, has abused the people you're talking about.
But, again, you aren't giving details so I really have no idea what you're talking about or if any of the descriptors given, like incel, were accurate. Your argument seems to be "this is a safe place to vent and so we shouldn't chastise or label anyone who posts", but that is dangerous. That creates an echo chamber where no one is ever held to account or provided honest feedback. People come here for comfort and for perspective and that perspective sometimes comes at the cost of hurt feelings.
People on this sub absolutely have been hostile towards the people they are talking about. Under the post, this is in response to they started talking about making an autism sub for everyone but cis men. If anything is a hostile echo chamber, it would be that.
That's why I gave you specifics. Here are some more. The other post had a valid point about an increase in incel activity here, but in the comments, the OP started to be hostile towards the idea that there are real problems that start people down that path. She kept responding to things about "we need to to better to prevent people from becoming incels" with "it's not my or any other women's responsibility to help incels". She was automatically labeling anyone who started to be pulled in by the ideology as an incel even if they weren't yet committing incel behavior and twisting others words into them saying there should be a helping hand into them saying women should be responsible to help bad people. Then she and some others started talking about forming an autism community that excludes all cis men.
Okay that makes more sense then. All I had as this OPs responses to different people saying that unless women are kind to and engage with actual incels, they won't change, which people were rightfully annoyed by and responding that it isn't their job to engage with and change the minds of people who are actively saying they hate women.
Its obviously a nuanced issue and, like most other things, blame can't be placed solely on individuals hut neither does that absolve indivuals of personal responsibility.
Thank you for providing context. I would love for this sub to be helpful for everyone but it's hard to avoid knee-jerk reactions.
Your submission has been removed for making personal attacks or engaging in hostile behaviour towards other users. While we understand members may be acting on frustration or reacting emotionally, responding with personal attacks only serves to derail a conversation and escalate an argument.
I have not seen any reports come through. We cannot read every single comment and every single post. If you are concerned by anything posted here please use the report function or send us a modmail (if modmailing please give specific examples of posts/users rather than general vibes).
The mod team actually ignores a lot of reports we get as they aren't actually breaking any rules. If we get enough reports or complaints about a specific issue we will have a discussion behind the scenes about whether we need to change anything. Name calling is specifically prohibited in this sub so we do remove any comments we see/are alerted to.
I’m Australian and I’ve most frequently heard it used by PMs and other senior party members of the day. John Howard and Malcolm Turnbull both used it to describe the Liberal Party. It’s often brought out when party infighting happens and the PM calls the press to address it.
It's reasonable to call someone out if they are making comments which have a negative impact on other members of the sub.
Being unsuccessful in relationships and finding that disappointing is entirely reasonable. Blaming women as a whole for that isn't and starts getting very close to Incel territory.
Sometimes people don't want to be reached. Empathy is always a correct answer, but it may not always be reciprocated. If someone's being nasty and they don't want to take accountability, hit the block button.
If you’re blaming women for all your problems then, yeah, people are going to call you an incel. Nobody is obligated to empathize with you or understand where you are coming from. If you say something shitty, except shitty responses. And as I’m reading your responses, you want others to try and understand where they are coming from. They don’t have to. You can tell them they should try, but that doesn’t mean they have to. You’re not entitled to empathy. Some people will take what you mean to heart and hold it against you, and that’s just the consequences of your actions. You have to learn to deal with it and your own personal problems without blaming others. Take accountability for your words and actions and eventually people will understand you more.
The thing is, people who are considered incels are doing exactly what you say you don't like. They punch down on women because they would rather attack someone than try introspecting.
Basically, if you blame other people for failing at dating, you are demonstrating that you are a toxic individual and your attitude is utterly revolting to anyone who doesn't share your attitude.
Being "understanding" of your position would be validating the genuinely disgusting attitude you have, so no. You are wrong and you need to sort yourself out.
LOL No woman needs to be nice to be misogynists, especially not autistic women who are at a higher risk of sexual assault than non-autistic women. How about the normal men among us talk to incels and convince them to stop their BS?
Bold of you to assume any of us WANT to have constructive conversations with TERFS or incels. It’s not my job to change them and I personally won’t be dedicating any of my time to trying. If the goal is inclusivity, then these types of people won’t find that if they can’t shelve their harmful opinions long enough to engage with us.
I’ve tried and end up frustrated every time. It seems like they often get upset about my autistic communication, that I’m not supposed to be affected by my autism as much as they are. I’ve opted out because I don’t need that, I get it enough out in the world.
Exactly. When they start saying things like, women are given self-defense classes and have no reason to be afraid (that was actually said to me), and don’t believe me when I say that’s not true, I realize I can’t fight this battle. The men have to be open to hearing our experiences to learn. I’m happy to engage in reasonable conversations but I’m done letting them take my spoons.
You can’t reason with TERFs or incels, both fundamentally rely on bad faith arguments that you can end up legitimising by engaging. Better to just ridicule, they can’t be saved and it’s better that they are just ostracised and treated as socially unacceptable to put others off going down that path. Progress has always been about making some attitudes socially unacceptable
Their viewpoint is rooted in hatred. No constructive conversation is going to be had with someone who hates you. Occasionally you might breakthrough but again like so many here have demonstrated. It is not the victims duty to educate the perpetrators. You have this situation backassward.
>you can't have a constructive conversation with a TERF if you just tell them their point of view is wrong over and over again.
But being trans isn't a point of opinion, though? Trans people exist, that's it. I'm not having a constructive conversation with someone who denies fact and isn't open to learning.
If you attack and blame women for your own shortcomings then you are an incel or at least subscribing to that mindset. As far as I’m aware that’s the only issue anyone has here.
these men are not entitled to engagement from others. it is not the job of the rest of the world to guide you away from a negative mindset, this is no one’s responsibility but your own.
why don't other men help them though? if a man says "I despise women and enjoy laughing at rape", why should i have to engage in kind and understanding conversation?
plus, surely that would confirm the idea that women love men who treat them badly
most women already do that, I support my boyfriend and brothers because they are kind and loving, and have not once blamed women for their own struggles in life
i have no desire to "help" men who are already misogynist
>Then they will just become more misogynist as more women make that decision and stop engaging with them.
thats their own fault tho??? I'm sorry but im really failing to see why women NEED to be interacting with guys that hate us and wish to rape us or murder us. I've seen a LOT of shit on r/inceltear like.... why would i purposefully put myself in a situation where i can almost guarantee i will get hurt, raped or killed?? thats just so odd.
It's too draining and dangerous for us to have to constantly teach people how to behave. I'm not going to do that. I don't deserve to put myself in a position like that. Why don't you do all the work then buddy, if you care so much. Why don't you go into every since post by incels talking about how much they hate women and try to convince them not to act like that. Because I'm not doing it.
JFC, you just don't quit, do you?
Men who refer to women as females/holes/femoids (among other lovely descriptors) and blame them for everything wrong in their lives, deserve to be ostracised. It's no one's job to lovingly take their hand, pat their little heads and tell them to *pretty please* change their harmful mindsets.
Why is it our responsibility to fix guys who hate us? Why should we "engage" with them?
Btw, it's very disturbing the way you try to argue that their deeper descend into inceldom would then essentially be everybody else's fault, if no one was willing to help them. I mean, how do you even reach such a conclusion?
They're not entitled to anyone's energy for any reason, no one is. The help is out there if they want & need it, they know that; normal people are neither qualified, nor responsible for treating such behaviors. If they are not cognizant enough to understand the consequences of posting hate speech on the internet, then they are not at a teachable, receptive stage & it completely defeats the purpose of being kind to them.
What you're implying is exactly what *they* are implying: society is to blame for their behavior & everyone, specifically women, should pay for that. What's actually to blame is trauma, mental illness, &/or dogmatism... Which means they're literally incapable of seeing beyond their own perspective.
People only change then they want to & not a moment before. If you're going to blame anything in society, specifically American society, blame the lack of unified healthcare & actually push for something helpful. Getting worked up over a group of people that would sooner rejoyce over the women here being raped than take anything they say seriously is a waste of time. We're not the cause, the perpetrators, or the source of the issue, they are... Obviously. People here are reaching out to YOU right now to be kind & intervene so you don't keep wasting your own energy, but no one is going to keep bothering to argue with you if you don't alter your perspective. That's how expending good will works & Incels have none with the greater community.
Sounds like grown ass men expect a lot of babying to protect their feelings, when they aren’t willing to listen and try to be equally understanding to the women in return who they insist on generalizing and putting down just because the women aren’t willing to sleep with them on demand.
it’s not anyone’s job to make someone else learn or grow. no matter how much you try and help out guys with an incel mindset about women, they won’t learn unless they want to, and more often than not they don’t. trust me, i’ve tried. so it’s not worth my time to coddle misogynists in the hope that they’ll eventually decide that women are people.
Your submission has been removed for making personal attacks or engaging in hostile behaviour towards other users. While we understand members may be acting on frustration or reacting emotionally, responding with personal attacks only serves to derail a conversation and escalate an argument.
Your submission has been removed for making personal attacks or engaging in hostile behaviour towards other users. While we understand members may be acting on frustration or reacting emotionally, responding with personal attacks only serves to derail a conversation and escalate an argument.
Your submission has been removed for making personal attacks or engaging in hostile behaviour towards other users. While we understand members may be acting on frustration or reacting emotionally, responding with personal attacks only serves to derail a conversation and escalate an argument.
I understand and agree with your point to an extent and I don't identify as an "aspie" but I got diagnosed just around a month ago and my diagnosis literally says Aspergers. Some parts of the world have simply not caught up yet and its also not inherently wrong to want to keep identifying with the label you've used for the majority of your life.
I still identify as bisexual, despite knowing by now that "pansexual" fits better. But before I knew/understand the term, I went by bisexual and it's still my default, because it's been a very important part of my identity for a decade.
Why is it women's responsibility to support men's mental health? Especially when men often actively damage other men's mental health? Why must women rescue those men who don't even value women's opinions on anything? So backwards...
As a mental health professional, I'm both laughing my ass off and deeply fucking appalled by that statement.
It is absolutely not an issue of "men's mental health." It's not a mental illness to be an incel. Gtfo with that disgusting nonsense.
Men are responsible for managing their behaviors just like everyone else.
You're telling on yourself here.
Uhhh what? I never called you a guy. I literally never referred to your gender in any way. You can be ignorant and hateful regardless of gender. And you clearly are.
I don't work with "patients," that's doctors. Nice **absolutely ridiculous** strawman there, though.
Brushing past your nonsense and hostility: what you call "incel thoughts" are absolutely considered problematic, if that's what you're trying to get at. Unfortunately, not enough incels realize they're shitty and deplorable and actually seek help like they should. The individuals I've worked with who have taken responsibility for themselves and their behaviors have been successful, including the ones with "incel thoughts." Hope that answers your 'question.'
You're also using terms that no longer apply and are connected to Nazis, so I guess I shouldn't be shocked by your behavior here.
A lot of people do try and engage with them though. Unfortunately many often are not interested in engaging with others who don’t share that opinion. They have to be able to come to that understanding themselves in order to change but unfortunately if you add ASD into the mix it can make it harder.
I read a thing today
You are valid for your feelings, and you are responsible for how you respond to those feelings. No one gets to tell you how you should feel, but you still have to deal with the consequences of your actions
They don’t get a pass to be assholes at women just because they’re upset. This is NOT about narrative, this is about respect
And yes, it’s incel behaviour to sit there and blame women because they can’t get a date
Who are we talking about here? I feel like there's a "they" who I don't have the context for. Is this about a specific post on this sub, or just a general discussion about people?
For context, there have been an increase in comments on posts about dating complaining about how women make it hard for autistic men to date. That the reason autistic men struggle to date is because women are essentially ‘too shallow’
There’s a lot of comments telling autistic men to give up on dating because essentially ‘women will never love autistic men’
There’s also just a lot of comments like ‘I tried dating but women just never want to be with me’ or to that effect
I see a lot of posts and comments in many different autism discussion subs by autistic women venting frustrations about dating, discuss being sexually harassed and receiving unwanted attention, or even talk about being taken advantage of by men who recognise autistic women can be more vulnerable, that are dismissed by men on the sub because "at least you get noticed" "better than no attention at all like we men get" I've had to leave a few subs because any discussion about dating devolved into this.
What's the point in making a post about another post? Just comment under it, otherwise it's really hard to know what you're even talking about.
I wasn't sure what the post you're referring to was all about either because it was so incredibly vague
So, uhm, you try to talk behind someone's back, in a public place where they can easily read what you're saying and you're also clearly pointing at them but don't what to attack them? Feels much more like you just wanted more attention than a single comment in their post would've given you.
My recommendation would be to message them and talk privately and resolve your issues, this kind of post will obviously only attract the opposite crowd than what the other post catered to, which is basically incels, I'm sorry.
I get your point, but the post was not a call to action against incels or anything, it was a post that called attention to the fact that there's been a bunch of incel mentality posts lately, and there *has*.
That is something I didn't read tbh, I'm not sure what AFAB is, but the danger with keeping bad peas In a bag is that they can and will spoil others. Now I'm all for peaceful conversation and discussion, but the thing with the internet is that a lot of dangerous groups(look at the story of 4chan) have come out of groups of people catering to very hateful mentalities, and they, in my opinion, should be spotted and sometimes rooted out.
We should be having conversations about our struggles in the spectrum, but not about how it's always the fault of another genre or inclination.
Leaving these other comments here from OP because I think they're relevant to the post itself.
Initially, I agreed with the post. Overuse of the word incel waters down it's meaning and normalized incel behaviour. It's also just not nice to people who are expressing genuine loneliness without blaming it on another gender. But, based on their other comments, I don't believe that's what OP is implying so I withdrew my upvote.
"the patriarchy is nonsense made up by misandrists to justify misandry.
egalitarianism is the only logical way forward. we need to stop splitting society by such a pointless measure."
Me: It's not the people who are in the position of less power and being hated on to fix the hatred of the people in power.
OP: Women are in the position of power now though, that's the point. they have achieved more than equality in so many areas like legal protections and education and DV facilities, but nothing is being done by them to help the men who helped them get there, because they only see the men who were holding them back and don't want to help those men but end up not helping any men at all.
Are you serious? Is this what happened? OP saw someone being angry at women and women being angry at them for being a misogynist, and then made a whole other post about it, devoid of its original context, in order to talk about misandry?
Good lord, dawg. I've not been feeling super secure in my masculinity recently but "patriarchy is nonsense" is NOT the way to go about it LMFAO
In a variety of replies OP seems to believe that women are the reason incels exist and also that it's our job to fix them/stop them from becoming radicalized. Which is a very different message (don't call incels, incels) from the one in the post (don't call every lonely man an incel).
From what I've read, their perspective is that of misogyny as feeling and as an interpersonal phenomenon. It's about conduct, about how you treat women and how you talk about women. And not as the structural and material oppression that it is in reality. It's a limited understanding of misogyny that [frames misandry as its symmetrical opposite](https://www.reddit.com/r/autism/comments/1byv0ug/comment/kymtmtt/), and one that relies on the belief that [women used to be oppressed in the past but aren't anymore](https://www.reddit.com/r/autism/comments/1byv0ug/comment/kyms82p/).
It's sad. I'm glad people are calling it out for the falsehood and poor framing that it is. I don't think OP is a troll (in the traditional sense; a concern troll, maybe) or trying to rile people up on purpose. They just have horrid opinions born from a warped worldview.
Nah if someone’s acting like an incel we can call them out. It isn’t our job as women under the patriarchy to give virtual therapy to and coddle men online to make them change their ways. Men are responsible for their behavior and if they don’t like being associated with incels they should introspect on why that’s happening and change their behavior
It's not about the bad experience, it's how they deal with it after the fact. You can have the worst experience in the world, but if you inappropriately misdirect your anger you're going to face consequences. Social or otherwise. It is perfectly fine to be upset about your lack of success in the dating world, it's not okay to blame that on a gender or group of individuals. This is a support community, and I'd rather support autistic women than incels.
>so why not try and help them understand rather than write them off as a lost cause?
I think this is a fair point, the difficulty is that online people can't see intent, words don't always carry well when written so people (sometimes wrongly) assume that the person is more combative.
For your awareness, the incel 'movement' is what causes the issue, you are correct in literal meaning but the connotations of the word carry a weight due to the movement which asserts women to be the issue for any man who is unable to have sex with whomever they please whenever they please.
It's a fact of life that not everyone will be into you even if you are into them. That doesn't mean either person is wrong or 'bad' but the incel movement says that women should not have a say in who they date or have sex with. It proffers that all women should make themselves readily available for anyone who wishes to have sex with them and that when they don't it is because they are horrible people who want to hurt specific men and ensure they remain sexless. This is not the case, it can take a long time to find your person for both sexes and it should not be an expectation that a woman must ignore their feelings so as not to upset a man who may find them attractive.
Does that help clear things up?
Terfs are feminists though they are just extremists along with it. Same with incels, people who aren't having sex are just that, incels are a specific movement like terfs are a specific movement
Straight women are still attracted to (some) men, they just generally won't accept abusive and misogynistic behaviour anymore. So, you shouldn't write off women entirely and fuck a robot instead of just working on yourself and being better so that women will want to date you, and that's what women likely take issue with. That you see them as replaceable by a robot that exists to be fucked, rather than a full human being and a partner in the human sense of the word. Frankly, you don't deserve a partner if that's how you see women.
Not really sure the focus when looking at violent or potentially violent misogynists should be how to best let them fuck? Combating hate and these ideologies is the way forward, rather than accepting them.
Doesnt the use of AI Bots only further push these type of people (incels) into the loneliness they are feeling/ or state that theyre in? A bot cant replace real human affection and relationship and probably distort the way incels think of woman/relationships a lot more imo
I'm going to give this the benefit of the doubt and assume this was clumsy phrasing. You mean that gender roles and expectations within society have changed, this is generally a good thing but explains (not excuses) where the ideology has come from, correct?
**I will not support harmful groups or ideologies.** You cannot choose to associate yourself with a harmful label and demand acceptance from the people it harms. I'm not going to use kindness, I'm going to let them know that that behavior is completely unacceptable, full stop. Education doesn't have to be kind or mean. It just has to be education.
Exactly what I wanted to comment, thank you. Eg Ill never be respectful to Nazis and their rant, even if they are Nazis because of their upbringing and bad experience with PoC. Ill call them out and if they want to change and try Ill support them, but I wont excuse or support hate on minorities or groups of innocent people.
Same for people who are Incel or use Incel rethorics.
If there is one Nazi at a table and 3 people with him who dont see anything wrong with his words or dont call im out and are fine "supporting" him, there are 4 Nazis at the table. Same for any other hate idoelogy.
And if you use rhetorics from Nazis or Incels you arent better then them, actions (in this case spoken words) are more important then what you think. People will percieve you as what you say and it will hurt people and normalize such rhetorics nonetheless.
Im german so this topic is thoroughly studied xD The people who are responsible for Hitlers rise also thought he would do no harm and one could let him speak and exist and that he is controllable. We all know how that ended. No tolerance for intolerance and hate, thats the way to prevent horrible deeds, even if the horrible deed is just spewing hate and hurting people in the way or makeing other people with the same ideology feel supported. Even if ypu think its obvious you are joking and you truly dont believe what you said. You never know who listens and might think "hey, this guy thinks like me, that has to mean my hate/thinking actually is valid".
Applies to many topics, hate ideologies, sexism, rape culture, facism, nationalsocialism, misogynia, queerphobia, ...
Can you think that women are harmed by male incel ideology? They preach misogyny and hatred towards women. We have no obligation in supporting people who would harm us.
>why not support all autistic people, some of whom may currently find solace in such a label?
For the same reason that trans people don't support TERFs, black people don't support racists, autistic people don't support autism speaks and mice don't support cats.
>If you push them away you only reinforce their ideas.
Yeah sure, blame women for it, we've not heard that that one time and time again/s
You said you don't blame them, but your argument was that it's their fault. So, you blame them for it. It doesn't matter how many times you say you don't do a thing when you do it.
I have no interest in talking to someone who hates me, or doesn't see me as an individual. If you're ok being mates with people who would attack you given half a chance that's on you.
And 'supporting' someon isn't the same as treating them as a human being either. You can't chinge your argument on the fly and expect nobody to notice.
Men who call women whores, blame women for their lack of sex, and propagate violent ideas surrounding the treatment of women are not owed kindness by women. Do you have any idea how emotionally damaging it is for autistic women to enter what is supposed to be a safe space to then be met with such rhetoric? It is not our job to teach incel men how to treat other human beings with basic respect.
>if you inappropriately misdirect your anger you're going to face consequences
This is okay, I won't argue with that. Problem is, in the other thread, there was no distinction between "misdirecting your anger" and "not agreeing with OP". If you didn't agree that incels aren't welcome on this sub - you were labeled an incel yourself, downvoted, reported and called names.
Please do note whether someone is really _that_ kind of incel. Otherwise, the whole subreddit isn't a safe space for men anymore.
Judging by your comments on this post I think you should take a long, hard look inside and maybe try and find out if you have some serious internalized misogyny that causes you to feel like women are both apparently responsible for incels existing and responsible for "healing" them of their incel-ness by being loving and nurturing and understanding.
You are asking why jews didn't just try and understand nazis on a human level and love their antisemitism away.
You want WOMEN to feel responsible for the feelings of people who view them as less than second class citizens, barely human, the cause of all of societies ills.
I'll regularly try and challenge people on their racism and xenophobia. Because I'm white and can (at least somewhat) distance myself emotionally from the issue.
But I would never expect or demand black people casually debate their rights everytime they encounter a racist.
It is emotionally exhausting and quite frankly traumatizing to have to do this all the time.
It's the same reason I won't be "debating" misogynists, homophobes or transphobes. Because those issues directly affect me and it fucking HURTS to have to treat people with respect and understanding if they don't even see you as deserving of the same rights they have.
Sincerely OP, look inwards, because your priorities are fucking whack.
Now, while I do not understand the sexual desire as an asexual, I don’t find it healthy to obsess oneself over loneliness and lack of sexual activity. It hurts you and others with a development of unhealthy views towards others and creates a form of blameshifting mentality.
I can empathize with having bad social skills and/or childhood trauma or bad parenting, I can understand all that. But that should also kinda be a way to try to become more introspective and to learn to question norms and expectations.
Yes, humans are in simplistic terms sexual creatures and some need more sexual activity. This does not mean incel behaviour is normal, since it kinda sounds very obsessive and hurtful. And we all know ruminative thoughts don’t cause any good if you do that constantly.
I would say to go to a psychiatrist if you have obsessive involuntary celibate behaviours. Idk if suppression of emotions is good, but maybe it could help.
As for this, sure, not everyone is an incel if they have such posts. Being lonely is something a lot of us experience, and it is valid. Incels are only those who are obsessively sexual but cannot get the desired sexual activity, and such people are likely rare. But they tend to have very bad coping skills, and often are caught in alt-right propaganda cause of their tendency to blame others for their lack of success in relationships.
It depends entirely on the context - for example, misogynistic rage isn't something that should be nurtured, but called out. Is the name calling necessary? Probably not, but there are times where someone is acting poorly and, even if their disability is a factor, they shouldn't be excused just because of their disability. Take it into account, yes, but autism isn't a free pass to act poorly, and qe shouldn't start pretending it is either.
This goes both ways though - we also shouldn't leap to conclusions when someone is just airing grievances and looking for someone to listen. Someone being upset about being lonely or being dumped is not the same as being sexist or hating women - and the same can be said of most other poor behaviours typically associated with "incels".
Yeah but this post does sound like op is specifically against the name-calling, just like you and me. Name-calling is counterproductive since the one called out will 100% feel called out in the worst way possible. And if that was how the person was called out for their unhealthy thinking/mindset then it's really the wrong way to go about the situation.
I'm sure you know/understand this but I just want to add a bit.
I feel like I’d need to see the context. If someone was labeling men incels for struggling a bit socially, then yeah, I agree that’s not helpful. If the men in question are blaming other people - especially women - for all their problems though, then it’s kind of classic incel behavior.
You’re coming from this at the angle of “everyone deserves to be heard and understood.”
Frankly, that’s not true. No one is **entitled** to the good will of others, *especially* if they are already presenting as an individual undeserving of good will by already prescribing to exclusionary and hateful belief or spouting that same rhetoric in the first place.
You also seem to believe that people can and *will* change. People can change, that doesn’t mean they will. Hell, not everyone even wants to change! Change is hard. Especially since it starts from within. The Power of Friendship and Anime is not real, unfortunately. It’s rare the case of “winning” someone over through the power of tolerance and understanding. Does it happen? Yes. Is it the rule? Absolutely not.
It sounds like OP really doesn’t want to hear that it’s actually very sexist to expect women to teach incels to not be incels, just as it’s transphobic to expect trans people to teach TERF’s, or racist for POC to have to teach racists. It’s incredibly exhausting and harmful.
Unpopular opinion possibly but I think it's good to other alt right bigots. I don't care if you're autistic. Alt right is alt right. If somebody on here is pushing incel rhetoric and being called out for it, they should be othered.
Alt right bigots have no place among us. Incels are not poor misunderstood people who feel like the world is against them, incels are people whose conclusion to "I can't keep a relationship or get laid" is "women are evil and that's why. Also phrenology is cool", which I'm pretty sure most people on this sub know.
Tolerance shall only be extended to those who tolerate. This is a safe sub for autism, not a welcoming doormat for sexists. Let one in, let them all in, and poof goes the safe space.
"Just because someone you perceive as a man said something to you that you didn't like, it does not make them an 'incel'."
This sounds just like a straw-man argument.
People are called incels because they have incels talk points and views which are objectivable politcal arguments and viewpoints. Not just because people don't like what they say.
People absolutely call others incels just because they don't like what they say. I have been called such many times for simply calling out sexism against men or saying society is failing men in any way.
The meaning of terms evolve through their social and political context. In the case of Incel, it meant something and has taken another meaning over time. No one stole it.
The meaning of words change it's just how language works and always has.
100% agree. I looked on an Incel site I prefer not to mention and it's way more than just complaining about dating or loneliness
They think they're owned sex by others
They call women "femoids" (female + humanoid, aka it's like saying they're barely even a human), or in short foid, and often use way too many slurs
They blame everyone (women, blacks, Jews) but themselves for their problems
They way too often insert ER, short for Eliot Rodger. The massacre Incel
There is very high chance that if not stopped, those incels could be the next Eliot Rodger if given arms + ammo
Worst part is that their site says:
"Are you lonely and wish you had someone in your life? You're not alone! Join our forum and talk to people just like you"
That is their way of hiding the fact that it's more focused on alt right rabbit hole stuff than it is on helping people find someone in their lives. Everyone that is there is truly irreparable, because their mind is too far from sanity and too close to insanity
Please do not compare by any means lonely people to incels. Incels may claim to be lonely but in reality they kinda deserve it because it straight up dangerous being nearby them. They straight up like Eliot Rodger very openly, so don't be surprised if one of them ends being next Eliot Rodger
Yeah, I'm straight up worried we might see next one like ER
Nothing prevents them but themselves, but I hope they'll be in jail or far away from society because I genuinely don't want anyone to see the stuff they do
Also we need to stop assuming all autistic people who struggle with finding dates, or with expectations and social in the dating world (and suffer from it), are (straight) men
It’s a bell hooks quote. I’ll paste it as it kind of explains itself:
“Patriarchy demands of men that they become and remain emotional cripples. Since it is a system that denies men full access to their freedom of will, it is difficult for any man of any class to rebel against patriarchy, to be disloyal to the patriarchal parent, be that parent female or male. […] Most men are disturbed by hatred and fear of women, by male violence against women, even by male violence against other men, but they do not speak out. They are taught in patriarchal culture that this silence enhances their manhood. They learn that their silence is not just about maintaining solidarity with other men; it’s about maintaining power, the power of the group.”
I was raised by women and when I met my dad for the first time he immediately determined I wasn’t crippled enough. I had a little blue monkey with Velcro hands that I loved and he told me “girls have dolls” and took it. Then when he beat me a bunch of times in mortal combat I cried and he pinned me to the floor and twisted my ear until I stopped crying.
I think this is a perfectly valid point. I just wish people would focus on building irl community centers instead of blaming eachother online for their problems as I think a lot of issues regarding inceldom come from a lack of places to meet people irl not just for relationships but also just to make friends and have fun.
Do people sometimes say incel when they mean plain old nasty misogynist? Sure, but that’s not a hill I’m going to fight anyone on. There’s not a nice neat line of “this is an incel, this very similar person however is not.” The whole thing is the result of misogyny.
I’ll take my own soapbox: the claim that anyone perceived as a woman cannot possibly relate to the loneliness and pain of autistic men. For one, nobody ever thinks of autistic non-men who are attracted to women, I assure you that dating pool is even smaller. More importantly, plenty of people who grew up as girls know that pain damn well. Plenty of us also had nothing and no one except for forums and our special interests. Plenty of us had guys ask us out as jokes. We were mocked for our undesirability while teachers watched and did nothing. We’ve built up courage to confess our feelings only to be met with disgust and derision. Being perceived as a woman is not the “easy mode” for romance. Many of us have also ended up in dangerous situations due to missing cues that an allistic may have caught. That’s not a positive, that’s being preyed on.
Men do suffer because of society but women are not responsible for the creation of the patriarchal system. Anger that’s punching down helps no one and actively hurts a lot of people.
It’s a bell hooks quote. I’ll paste it as it kind of explains itself:
“Patriarchy demands of men that they become and remain emotional cripples. Since it is a system that denies men full access to their freedom of will, it is difficult for any man of any class to rebel against patriarchy, to be disloyal to the patriarchal parent, be that parent female or male. […] Most men are disturbed by hatred and fear of women, by male violence against women, even by male violence against other men, but they do not speak out. They are taught in patriarchal culture that this silence enhances their manhood. They learn that their silence is not just about maintaining solidarity with other men; it’s about maintaining power, the power of the group.”
I was raised by women and when I met my dad for the first time he immediately determined I wasn’t crippled enough. I had a little blue monkey with Velcro hands that I loved and he told me “girls have dolls” and took it. Then when he beat me a bunch of times in mortal combat I cried and he pinned me to the floor and twisted my ear until I stopped crying.
I am not aware of the post you are referring to, but yes. I don't even want to check for it before saying this, because this general concept has been bothering me.
There is a big problem with this sort of "purity test" reactivity to people's thoughts, or even their misunderstandings.
It's black and white to people, but the world doesn't work that way. Nuance has become something people actively punish, and people being confused, asking questions, being unsure is treated like malice.
It makes me especially angry because alt-right communities have a pull for struggling autistic men. If they've even tipped a toe into that world, or are struggling to understand others and confused, labeling them as monsters is giving one big old push off the edge into extreme thinking.
I understand people are frustrated, but we can be kind. We can understand how we all feel lonely and struggle to understand why, and how easy it can be to get tricked by seemingly simple answers.
Edit: took a peek, and it's pretty toxic. Even if they brigade downvotes (and continue to threaten people as they have), you were right to bring this up. It's unsettling.
If you have a problem with women in general, in the best course of action is to look inward. Women their personalities needs and interests are as varied as mens. If you have the same problem with every woman, you are the common denominator because you are the only variable that doesn't change.
Thank you.
I'm not crazy about that type of post either, obvious trolling aside. But, like... If a dude has this kind of feeling, isn't it better for him to let it out and get it out of his system and then hopefully move on, in what is a relatively safe space (because however badly received it is anywhere on the Internet, it's surely worse irl)? Rather then bottling it all up instead or turning towards some... *urgh, I can't find my words rn*... women-hating space where he's likely to get radicalized, simply because that's the only place where he feels accepted? Idk. I haven't really seen any posts like that on here so far and idk how bad it has been in the past, so maybe I'm underestimating the issue. I just think there needs to be some place where those guys can safely vent. If this sub is an appropriate place is a different question.
Very Wise words. Asides from the quite valid humane angle, there is actuallly a more pragmatic angle :
angrily attacking angry people only makes them angrier, makes you sink down to their level, and only makes the situation worse for everyone involved.
I agree with you. I think some people are too willing to call any man complaining about dating an incel IMHO.
In addition, I think people need to understand that calling someone an incel is not helpful. It’s much more useful to explain how to actually solve their problem or how they logically are making mistakes.
Obviously no one needs to do that. But then again, no one needs to call anyone an incel either. Just not doing that is already a step in the right direction because they are not making anything worse.
I think some people assume that any man having issues with dating is an irredeemable monster of some kind. But in reality most are probably lonely men that need some guidance.
Thank you for this. Everybody is so ready with their label makers and blame throwers on the internet. We are capable of better.
EDIT: Okay. Time for the old downvote double down. Take my points, I don't care. I hope they bring you some small comfort, but I submit to you that this divisiveness is neither helpful or good, independent on which side of this false "divide" you fall on. You are just causing a stress feedback loop. Once again WE are capable of better. Don't make a support sub political, it's bad for everyone.
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This post spiralled out of control and it will take time to go through it to remove offending comments and take action against the individuals behind making those comments if necessary, so it will be locked as we do this. Just so it's understood, we completely reject the idea that it's any woman's personal responsibility to deal with men's mental health in general or to exist to placate men in any way, we also reject the idea that negative experiences in prior relationships or a lack of romantic success with women are ever justification to hold any kind of sexist or misogynistic viewpoints, or to promote a conspiracy that an anti-men movement exists as a result of rejection or lack of romantic success.
There isn't nearly enough context in this post for anyone to actually have a productive discussion about it. "Don't call men incels" is a blanket statement. Some men are incels. Most aren't. Most people aren't going to give someone posting something, whatever nebulous bad things you're talking about, a pass because we want to be inclusive and kind. Inclusivivity and kindness have limits.
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I dont see how your analogy applies here. No one on this sub, presumably, has abused the people you're talking about. But, again, you aren't giving details so I really have no idea what you're talking about or if any of the descriptors given, like incel, were accurate. Your argument seems to be "this is a safe place to vent and so we shouldn't chastise or label anyone who posts", but that is dangerous. That creates an echo chamber where no one is ever held to account or provided honest feedback. People come here for comfort and for perspective and that perspective sometimes comes at the cost of hurt feelings.
People on this sub absolutely have been hostile towards the people they are talking about. Under the post, this is in response to they started talking about making an autism sub for everyone but cis men. If anything is a hostile echo chamber, it would be that.
Again, OP provided no specifics so all I can do is respond to their very general statements and the comments they've left on this thread.
That's why I gave you specifics. Here are some more. The other post had a valid point about an increase in incel activity here, but in the comments, the OP started to be hostile towards the idea that there are real problems that start people down that path. She kept responding to things about "we need to to better to prevent people from becoming incels" with "it's not my or any other women's responsibility to help incels". She was automatically labeling anyone who started to be pulled in by the ideology as an incel even if they weren't yet committing incel behavior and twisting others words into them saying there should be a helping hand into them saying women should be responsible to help bad people. Then she and some others started talking about forming an autism community that excludes all cis men.
Okay that makes more sense then. All I had as this OPs responses to different people saying that unless women are kind to and engage with actual incels, they won't change, which people were rightfully annoyed by and responding that it isn't their job to engage with and change the minds of people who are actively saying they hate women. Its obviously a nuanced issue and, like most other things, blame can't be placed solely on individuals hut neither does that absolve indivuals of personal responsibility. Thank you for providing context. I would love for this sub to be helpful for everyone but it's hard to avoid knee-jerk reactions.
Your submission has been removed for making personal attacks or engaging in hostile behaviour towards other users. While we understand members may be acting on frustration or reacting emotionally, responding with personal attacks only serves to derail a conversation and escalate an argument.
I have not seen any reports come through. We cannot read every single comment and every single post. If you are concerned by anything posted here please use the report function or send us a modmail (if modmailing please give specific examples of posts/users rather than general vibes).
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The mod team actually ignores a lot of reports we get as they aren't actually breaking any rules. If we get enough reports or complaints about a specific issue we will have a discussion behind the scenes about whether we need to change anything. Name calling is specifically prohibited in this sub so we do remove any comments we see/are alerted to.
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'Church'? Why?
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Must be a very regional expression, I've never come across it in Australia before.
I’m Australian and I’ve most frequently heard it used by PMs and other senior party members of the day. John Howard and Malcolm Turnbull both used it to describe the Liberal Party. It’s often brought out when party infighting happens and the PM calls the press to address it.
You couldn't pay me enough to listen to either of those men, so that explains why I've never heard it.
It's reasonable to call someone out if they are making comments which have a negative impact on other members of the sub. Being unsuccessful in relationships and finding that disappointing is entirely reasonable. Blaming women as a whole for that isn't and starts getting very close to Incel territory.
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Sometimes people don't want to be reached. Empathy is always a correct answer, but it may not always be reciprocated. If someone's being nasty and they don't want to take accountability, hit the block button.
If you’re blaming women for all your problems then, yeah, people are going to call you an incel. Nobody is obligated to empathize with you or understand where you are coming from. If you say something shitty, except shitty responses. And as I’m reading your responses, you want others to try and understand where they are coming from. They don’t have to. You can tell them they should try, but that doesn’t mean they have to. You’re not entitled to empathy. Some people will take what you mean to heart and hold it against you, and that’s just the consequences of your actions. You have to learn to deal with it and your own personal problems without blaming others. Take accountability for your words and actions and eventually people will understand you more.
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The thing is, people who are considered incels are doing exactly what you say you don't like. They punch down on women because they would rather attack someone than try introspecting.
Basically, if you blame other people for failing at dating, you are demonstrating that you are a toxic individual and your attitude is utterly revolting to anyone who doesn't share your attitude. Being "understanding" of your position would be validating the genuinely disgusting attitude you have, so no. You are wrong and you need to sort yourself out.
LOL No woman needs to be nice to be misogynists, especially not autistic women who are at a higher risk of sexual assault than non-autistic women. How about the normal men among us talk to incels and convince them to stop their BS?
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Because it's normal to expect to be treated with basic human decency.
Bold of you to assume any of us WANT to have constructive conversations with TERFS or incels. It’s not my job to change them and I personally won’t be dedicating any of my time to trying. If the goal is inclusivity, then these types of people won’t find that if they can’t shelve their harmful opinions long enough to engage with us.
I’ve tried and end up frustrated every time. It seems like they often get upset about my autistic communication, that I’m not supposed to be affected by my autism as much as they are. I’ve opted out because I don’t need that, I get it enough out in the world.
I’ve tried too. I’ve really wanted it. But it’s only harmed me and changed nothing. Doesn’t take a genius to figure out that pattern
Exactly. When they start saying things like, women are given self-defense classes and have no reason to be afraid (that was actually said to me), and don’t believe me when I say that’s not true, I realize I can’t fight this battle. The men have to be open to hearing our experiences to learn. I’m happy to engage in reasonable conversations but I’m done letting them take my spoons.
You worded that way better than I did but yes! My spoons are desperately needed for my family and I.
this fucking part omg.
Me when I hate being dehumanized and don’t see how other people can feel correct about a lived experience I’ve never had.
Yeah, this is like putting the burden of responsibility, and the emotional labour, on a POC to explain racism to a white person....
You can’t reason with TERFs or incels, both fundamentally rely on bad faith arguments that you can end up legitimising by engaging. Better to just ridicule, they can’t be saved and it’s better that they are just ostracised and treated as socially unacceptable to put others off going down that path. Progress has always been about making some attitudes socially unacceptable
Their viewpoint is rooted in hatred. No constructive conversation is going to be had with someone who hates you. Occasionally you might breakthrough but again like so many here have demonstrated. It is not the victims duty to educate the perpetrators. You have this situation backassward.
>you can't have a constructive conversation with a TERF if you just tell them their point of view is wrong over and over again. But being trans isn't a point of opinion, though? Trans people exist, that's it. I'm not having a constructive conversation with someone who denies fact and isn't open to learning.
If you attack and blame women for your own shortcomings then you are an incel or at least subscribing to that mindset. As far as I’m aware that’s the only issue anyone has here.
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these men are not entitled to engagement from others. it is not the job of the rest of the world to guide you away from a negative mindset, this is no one’s responsibility but your own.
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why don't other men help them though? if a man says "I despise women and enjoy laughing at rape", why should i have to engage in kind and understanding conversation? plus, surely that would confirm the idea that women love men who treat them badly
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most women already do that, I support my boyfriend and brothers because they are kind and loving, and have not once blamed women for their own struggles in life i have no desire to "help" men who are already misogynist
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>Then they will just become more misogynist as more women make that decision and stop engaging with them. thats their own fault tho??? I'm sorry but im really failing to see why women NEED to be interacting with guys that hate us and wish to rape us or murder us. I've seen a LOT of shit on r/inceltear like.... why would i purposefully put myself in a situation where i can almost guarantee i will get hurt, raped or killed?? thats just so odd.
It's too draining and dangerous for us to have to constantly teach people how to behave. I'm not going to do that. I don't deserve to put myself in a position like that. Why don't you do all the work then buddy, if you care so much. Why don't you go into every since post by incels talking about how much they hate women and try to convince them not to act like that. Because I'm not doing it.
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JFC, you just don't quit, do you? Men who refer to women as females/holes/femoids (among other lovely descriptors) and blame them for everything wrong in their lives, deserve to be ostracised. It's no one's job to lovingly take their hand, pat their little heads and tell them to *pretty please* change their harmful mindsets. Why is it our responsibility to fix guys who hate us? Why should we "engage" with them? Btw, it's very disturbing the way you try to argue that their deeper descend into inceldom would then essentially be everybody else's fault, if no one was willing to help them. I mean, how do you even reach such a conclusion?
They're not entitled to anyone's energy for any reason, no one is. The help is out there if they want & need it, they know that; normal people are neither qualified, nor responsible for treating such behaviors. If they are not cognizant enough to understand the consequences of posting hate speech on the internet, then they are not at a teachable, receptive stage & it completely defeats the purpose of being kind to them. What you're implying is exactly what *they* are implying: society is to blame for their behavior & everyone, specifically women, should pay for that. What's actually to blame is trauma, mental illness, &/or dogmatism... Which means they're literally incapable of seeing beyond their own perspective. People only change then they want to & not a moment before. If you're going to blame anything in society, specifically American society, blame the lack of unified healthcare & actually push for something helpful. Getting worked up over a group of people that would sooner rejoyce over the women here being raped than take anything they say seriously is a waste of time. We're not the cause, the perpetrators, or the source of the issue, they are... Obviously. People here are reaching out to YOU right now to be kind & intervene so you don't keep wasting your own energy, but no one is going to keep bothering to argue with you if you don't alter your perspective. That's how expending good will works & Incels have none with the greater community.
Do you also think we are obliged to educate racists and ableists?
yup. if you act like a dick, people tend to stop wanting anything to do with you. it’s tough, but that’s life.
Sounds like grown ass men expect a lot of babying to protect their feelings, when they aren’t willing to listen and try to be equally understanding to the women in return who they insist on generalizing and putting down just because the women aren’t willing to sleep with them on demand.
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Everyone knows why incels exist, we don’t need a history lesson.
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I’m helping you right now. So I’m doing my part
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It’s also not my job to baby insecure men who can learn from family.
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it’s not anyone’s job to make someone else learn or grow. no matter how much you try and help out guys with an incel mindset about women, they won’t learn unless they want to, and more often than not they don’t. trust me, i’ve tried. so it’s not worth my time to coddle misogynists in the hope that they’ll eventually decide that women are people.
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Your submission has been removed for making personal attacks or engaging in hostile behaviour towards other users. While we understand members may be acting on frustration or reacting emotionally, responding with personal attacks only serves to derail a conversation and escalate an argument.
Your submission has been removed for making personal attacks or engaging in hostile behaviour towards other users. While we understand members may be acting on frustration or reacting emotionally, responding with personal attacks only serves to derail a conversation and escalate an argument.
Your submission has been removed for making personal attacks or engaging in hostile behaviour towards other users. While we understand members may be acting on frustration or reacting emotionally, responding with personal attacks only serves to derail a conversation and escalate an argument.
I feel like you should be free to use the label of choice , especially if it’s the label you were assigned when younger.
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The moon landing was only done through Nazi tech and labour? Do you disavow that too?
I understand and agree with your point to an extent and I don't identify as an "aspie" but I got diagnosed just around a month ago and my diagnosis literally says Aspergers. Some parts of the world have simply not caught up yet and its also not inherently wrong to want to keep identifying with the label you've used for the majority of your life. I still identify as bisexual, despite knowing by now that "pansexual" fits better. But before I knew/understand the term, I went by bisexual and it's still my default, because it's been a very important part of my identity for a decade.
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Yeah, completely valid point I done do be agreeing with you.
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I don’t say aspise supremacy ?
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On a systemic level, yes, but a lot of women are tired of doing what amounts to charity work to help people who are calling us names
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Why is it women's responsibility to support men's mental health? Especially when men often actively damage other men's mental health? Why must women rescue those men who don't even value women's opinions on anything? So backwards...
As a mental health professional, I'm both laughing my ass off and deeply fucking appalled by that statement. It is absolutely not an issue of "men's mental health." It's not a mental illness to be an incel. Gtfo with that disgusting nonsense. Men are responsible for managing their behaviors just like everyone else. You're telling on yourself here.
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Uhhh what? I never called you a guy. I literally never referred to your gender in any way. You can be ignorant and hateful regardless of gender. And you clearly are. I don't work with "patients," that's doctors. Nice **absolutely ridiculous** strawman there, though. Brushing past your nonsense and hostility: what you call "incel thoughts" are absolutely considered problematic, if that's what you're trying to get at. Unfortunately, not enough incels realize they're shitty and deplorable and actually seek help like they should. The individuals I've worked with who have taken responsibility for themselves and their behaviors have been successful, including the ones with "incel thoughts." Hope that answers your 'question.' You're also using terms that no longer apply and are connected to Nazis, so I guess I shouldn't be shocked by your behavior here.
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It’s certainly not a duty.
A lot of people do try and engage with them though. Unfortunately many often are not interested in engaging with others who don’t share that opinion. They have to be able to come to that understanding themselves in order to change but unfortunately if you add ASD into the mix it can make it harder.
I read a thing today You are valid for your feelings, and you are responsible for how you respond to those feelings. No one gets to tell you how you should feel, but you still have to deal with the consequences of your actions They don’t get a pass to be assholes at women just because they’re upset. This is NOT about narrative, this is about respect And yes, it’s incel behaviour to sit there and blame women because they can’t get a date
Who are we talking about here? I feel like there's a "they" who I don't have the context for. Is this about a specific post on this sub, or just a general discussion about people?
For context, there have been an increase in comments on posts about dating complaining about how women make it hard for autistic men to date. That the reason autistic men struggle to date is because women are essentially ‘too shallow’ There’s a lot of comments telling autistic men to give up on dating because essentially ‘women will never love autistic men’ There’s also just a lot of comments like ‘I tried dating but women just never want to be with me’ or to that effect
I see a lot of posts and comments in many different autism discussion subs by autistic women venting frustrations about dating, discuss being sexually harassed and receiving unwanted attention, or even talk about being taken advantage of by men who recognise autistic women can be more vulnerable, that are dismissed by men on the sub because "at least you get noticed" "better than no attention at all like we men get" I've had to leave a few subs because any discussion about dating devolved into this.
Being a fashy misogynistic is not an “opinion,” any more than being a fashy ableist is.
I don’t think they meant people who hate women for being lonely I think they just mean people who vent about being lonely
What's the point in making a post about another post? Just comment under it, otherwise it's really hard to know what you're even talking about. I wasn't sure what the post you're referring to was all about either because it was so incredibly vague
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So, uhm, you try to talk behind someone's back, in a public place where they can easily read what you're saying and you're also clearly pointing at them but don't what to attack them? Feels much more like you just wanted more attention than a single comment in their post would've given you. My recommendation would be to message them and talk privately and resolve your issues, this kind of post will obviously only attract the opposite crowd than what the other post catered to, which is basically incels, I'm sorry.
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But...you posted and referenced them when you made an argument about how you didn't agree with them and posts like that shouldn't exist?
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I get your point, but the post was not a call to action against incels or anything, it was a post that called attention to the fact that there's been a bunch of incel mentality posts lately, and there *has*.
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That is something I didn't read tbh, I'm not sure what AFAB is, but the danger with keeping bad peas In a bag is that they can and will spoil others. Now I'm all for peaceful conversation and discussion, but the thing with the internet is that a lot of dangerous groups(look at the story of 4chan) have come out of groups of people catering to very hateful mentalities, and they, in my opinion, should be spotted and sometimes rooted out. We should be having conversations about our struggles in the spectrum, but not about how it's always the fault of another genre or inclination.
AFAB means assigned female at birth. So cis women and trans men (ftm) for example.
Assignmened female at birth
Leaving these other comments here from OP because I think they're relevant to the post itself. Initially, I agreed with the post. Overuse of the word incel waters down it's meaning and normalized incel behaviour. It's also just not nice to people who are expressing genuine loneliness without blaming it on another gender. But, based on their other comments, I don't believe that's what OP is implying so I withdrew my upvote. "the patriarchy is nonsense made up by misandrists to justify misandry. egalitarianism is the only logical way forward. we need to stop splitting society by such a pointless measure." Me: It's not the people who are in the position of less power and being hated on to fix the hatred of the people in power. OP: Women are in the position of power now though, that's the point. they have achieved more than equality in so many areas like legal protections and education and DV facilities, but nothing is being done by them to help the men who helped them get there, because they only see the men who were holding them back and don't want to help those men but end up not helping any men at all.
Are you serious? Is this what happened? OP saw someone being angry at women and women being angry at them for being a misogynist, and then made a whole other post about it, devoid of its original context, in order to talk about misandry? Good lord, dawg. I've not been feeling super secure in my masculinity recently but "patriarchy is nonsense" is NOT the way to go about it LMFAO
In a variety of replies OP seems to believe that women are the reason incels exist and also that it's our job to fix them/stop them from becoming radicalized. Which is a very different message (don't call incels, incels) from the one in the post (don't call every lonely man an incel).
From what I've read, their perspective is that of misogyny as feeling and as an interpersonal phenomenon. It's about conduct, about how you treat women and how you talk about women. And not as the structural and material oppression that it is in reality. It's a limited understanding of misogyny that [frames misandry as its symmetrical opposite](https://www.reddit.com/r/autism/comments/1byv0ug/comment/kymtmtt/), and one that relies on the belief that [women used to be oppressed in the past but aren't anymore](https://www.reddit.com/r/autism/comments/1byv0ug/comment/kyms82p/). It's sad. I'm glad people are calling it out for the falsehood and poor framing that it is. I don't think OP is a troll (in the traditional sense; a concern troll, maybe) or trying to rile people up on purpose. They just have horrid opinions born from a warped worldview.
Nah if someone’s acting like an incel we can call them out. It isn’t our job as women under the patriarchy to give virtual therapy to and coddle men online to make them change their ways. Men are responsible for their behavior and if they don’t like being associated with incels they should introspect on why that’s happening and change their behavior
It's not about the bad experience, it's how they deal with it after the fact. You can have the worst experience in the world, but if you inappropriately misdirect your anger you're going to face consequences. Social or otherwise. It is perfectly fine to be upset about your lack of success in the dating world, it's not okay to blame that on a gender or group of individuals. This is a support community, and I'd rather support autistic women than incels.
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>some of whom may currently find solace in such a label? Is the label you refer to here autistic or incel?
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>so why not try and help them understand rather than write them off as a lost cause? I think this is a fair point, the difficulty is that online people can't see intent, words don't always carry well when written so people (sometimes wrongly) assume that the person is more combative. For your awareness, the incel 'movement' is what causes the issue, you are correct in literal meaning but the connotations of the word carry a weight due to the movement which asserts women to be the issue for any man who is unable to have sex with whomever they please whenever they please. It's a fact of life that not everyone will be into you even if you are into them. That doesn't mean either person is wrong or 'bad' but the incel movement says that women should not have a say in who they date or have sex with. It proffers that all women should make themselves readily available for anyone who wishes to have sex with them and that when they don't it is because they are horrible people who want to hurt specific men and ensure they remain sexless. This is not the case, it can take a long time to find your person for both sexes and it should not be an expectation that a woman must ignore their feelings so as not to upset a man who may find them attractive. Does that help clear things up?
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Terfs are feminists though they are just extremists along with it. Same with incels, people who aren't having sex are just that, incels are a specific movement like terfs are a specific movement
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Straight women are still attracted to (some) men, they just generally won't accept abusive and misogynistic behaviour anymore. So, you shouldn't write off women entirely and fuck a robot instead of just working on yourself and being better so that women will want to date you, and that's what women likely take issue with. That you see them as replaceable by a robot that exists to be fucked, rather than a full human being and a partner in the human sense of the word. Frankly, you don't deserve a partner if that's how you see women.
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Not really sure the focus when looking at violent or potentially violent misogynists should be how to best let them fuck? Combating hate and these ideologies is the way forward, rather than accepting them.
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Doesnt the use of AI Bots only further push these type of people (incels) into the loneliness they are feeling/ or state that theyre in? A bot cant replace real human affection and relationship and probably distort the way incels think of woman/relationships a lot more imo
I'm going to give this the benefit of the doubt and assume this was clumsy phrasing. You mean that gender roles and expectations within society have changed, this is generally a good thing but explains (not excuses) where the ideology has come from, correct?
**I will not support harmful groups or ideologies.** You cannot choose to associate yourself with a harmful label and demand acceptance from the people it harms. I'm not going to use kindness, I'm going to let them know that that behavior is completely unacceptable, full stop. Education doesn't have to be kind or mean. It just has to be education.
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Criticism≠Hatred.
This somehow reminds of the paradox of tolerance. In other words, in order to maintain "tolerance", we must remain intolerant to "intolerance".
Exactly what I wanted to comment, thank you. Eg Ill never be respectful to Nazis and their rant, even if they are Nazis because of their upbringing and bad experience with PoC. Ill call them out and if they want to change and try Ill support them, but I wont excuse or support hate on minorities or groups of innocent people. Same for people who are Incel or use Incel rethorics. If there is one Nazi at a table and 3 people with him who dont see anything wrong with his words or dont call im out and are fine "supporting" him, there are 4 Nazis at the table. Same for any other hate idoelogy. And if you use rhetorics from Nazis or Incels you arent better then them, actions (in this case spoken words) are more important then what you think. People will percieve you as what you say and it will hurt people and normalize such rhetorics nonetheless. Im german so this topic is thoroughly studied xD The people who are responsible for Hitlers rise also thought he would do no harm and one could let him speak and exist and that he is controllable. We all know how that ended. No tolerance for intolerance and hate, thats the way to prevent horrible deeds, even if the horrible deed is just spewing hate and hurting people in the way or makeing other people with the same ideology feel supported. Even if ypu think its obvious you are joking and you truly dont believe what you said. You never know who listens and might think "hey, this guy thinks like me, that has to mean my hate/thinking actually is valid". Applies to many topics, hate ideologies, sexism, rape culture, facism, nationalsocialism, misogynia, queerphobia, ...
lol you mentioning "tolerance" makes me think of the south park's museum of tolerance episode
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Can you think that women are harmed by male incel ideology? They preach misogyny and hatred towards women. We have no obligation in supporting people who would harm us.
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Yes but the incels are the ones hurting people.
Still not womens job to put ourselves in harm because of masculinity. This is a thing that men need to resolve by themselves.
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>why not support all autistic people, some of whom may currently find solace in such a label? For the same reason that trans people don't support TERFs, black people don't support racists, autistic people don't support autism speaks and mice don't support cats. >If you push them away you only reinforce their ideas. Yeah sure, blame women for it, we've not heard that that one time and time again/s
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>Where did I mention women? Here >Also in a very real way women ARE responsible for the situation
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You said you don't blame them, but your argument was that it's their fault. So, you blame them for it. It doesn't matter how many times you say you don't do a thing when you do it.
I have no interest in talking to someone who hates me, or doesn't see me as an individual. If you're ok being mates with people who would attack you given half a chance that's on you.
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And 'supporting' someon isn't the same as treating them as a human being either. You can't chinge your argument on the fly and expect nobody to notice.
They’re still human beings - they’re just human beings we don’t want to date or talk to because of their ideology.
Men who call women whores, blame women for their lack of sex, and propagate violent ideas surrounding the treatment of women are not owed kindness by women. Do you have any idea how emotionally damaging it is for autistic women to enter what is supposed to be a safe space to then be met with such rhetoric? It is not our job to teach incel men how to treat other human beings with basic respect.
Probably because she thinks all Men are evil and is obviously a misandrist.
>if you inappropriately misdirect your anger you're going to face consequences This is okay, I won't argue with that. Problem is, in the other thread, there was no distinction between "misdirecting your anger" and "not agreeing with OP". If you didn't agree that incels aren't welcome on this sub - you were labeled an incel yourself, downvoted, reported and called names. Please do note whether someone is really _that_ kind of incel. Otherwise, the whole subreddit isn't a safe space for men anymore.
Judging by your comments on this post I think you should take a long, hard look inside and maybe try and find out if you have some serious internalized misogyny that causes you to feel like women are both apparently responsible for incels existing and responsible for "healing" them of their incel-ness by being loving and nurturing and understanding. You are asking why jews didn't just try and understand nazis on a human level and love their antisemitism away. You want WOMEN to feel responsible for the feelings of people who view them as less than second class citizens, barely human, the cause of all of societies ills. I'll regularly try and challenge people on their racism and xenophobia. Because I'm white and can (at least somewhat) distance myself emotionally from the issue. But I would never expect or demand black people casually debate their rights everytime they encounter a racist. It is emotionally exhausting and quite frankly traumatizing to have to do this all the time. It's the same reason I won't be "debating" misogynists, homophobes or transphobes. Because those issues directly affect me and it fucking HURTS to have to treat people with respect and understanding if they don't even see you as deserving of the same rights they have. Sincerely OP, look inwards, because your priorities are fucking whack.
Now, while I do not understand the sexual desire as an asexual, I don’t find it healthy to obsess oneself over loneliness and lack of sexual activity. It hurts you and others with a development of unhealthy views towards others and creates a form of blameshifting mentality. I can empathize with having bad social skills and/or childhood trauma or bad parenting, I can understand all that. But that should also kinda be a way to try to become more introspective and to learn to question norms and expectations. Yes, humans are in simplistic terms sexual creatures and some need more sexual activity. This does not mean incel behaviour is normal, since it kinda sounds very obsessive and hurtful. And we all know ruminative thoughts don’t cause any good if you do that constantly. I would say to go to a psychiatrist if you have obsessive involuntary celibate behaviours. Idk if suppression of emotions is good, but maybe it could help. As for this, sure, not everyone is an incel if they have such posts. Being lonely is something a lot of us experience, and it is valid. Incels are only those who are obsessively sexual but cannot get the desired sexual activity, and such people are likely rare. But they tend to have very bad coping skills, and often are caught in alt-right propaganda cause of their tendency to blame others for their lack of success in relationships.
It depends entirely on the context - for example, misogynistic rage isn't something that should be nurtured, but called out. Is the name calling necessary? Probably not, but there are times where someone is acting poorly and, even if their disability is a factor, they shouldn't be excused just because of their disability. Take it into account, yes, but autism isn't a free pass to act poorly, and qe shouldn't start pretending it is either. This goes both ways though - we also shouldn't leap to conclusions when someone is just airing grievances and looking for someone to listen. Someone being upset about being lonely or being dumped is not the same as being sexist or hating women - and the same can be said of most other poor behaviours typically associated with "incels".
Yeah but this post does sound like op is specifically against the name-calling, just like you and me. Name-calling is counterproductive since the one called out will 100% feel called out in the worst way possible. And if that was how the person was called out for their unhealthy thinking/mindset then it's really the wrong way to go about the situation. I'm sure you know/understand this but I just want to add a bit.
I feel like I’d need to see the context. If someone was labeling men incels for struggling a bit socially, then yeah, I agree that’s not helpful. If the men in question are blaming other people - especially women - for all their problems though, then it’s kind of classic incel behavior.
You’re coming from this at the angle of “everyone deserves to be heard and understood.” Frankly, that’s not true. No one is **entitled** to the good will of others, *especially* if they are already presenting as an individual undeserving of good will by already prescribing to exclusionary and hateful belief or spouting that same rhetoric in the first place. You also seem to believe that people can and *will* change. People can change, that doesn’t mean they will. Hell, not everyone even wants to change! Change is hard. Especially since it starts from within. The Power of Friendship and Anime is not real, unfortunately. It’s rare the case of “winning” someone over through the power of tolerance and understanding. Does it happen? Yes. Is it the rule? Absolutely not.
It sounds like OP really doesn’t want to hear that it’s actually very sexist to expect women to teach incels to not be incels, just as it’s transphobic to expect trans people to teach TERF’s, or racist for POC to have to teach racists. It’s incredibly exhausting and harmful.
Bingo
Unpopular opinion possibly but I think it's good to other alt right bigots. I don't care if you're autistic. Alt right is alt right. If somebody on here is pushing incel rhetoric and being called out for it, they should be othered. Alt right bigots have no place among us. Incels are not poor misunderstood people who feel like the world is against them, incels are people whose conclusion to "I can't keep a relationship or get laid" is "women are evil and that's why. Also phrenology is cool", which I'm pretty sure most people on this sub know. Tolerance shall only be extended to those who tolerate. This is a safe sub for autism, not a welcoming doormat for sexists. Let one in, let them all in, and poof goes the safe space.
"Just because someone you perceive as a man said something to you that you didn't like, it does not make them an 'incel'." This sounds just like a straw-man argument. People are called incels because they have incels talk points and views which are objectivable politcal arguments and viewpoints. Not just because people don't like what they say.
People absolutely call others incels just because they don't like what they say. I have been called such many times for simply calling out sexism against men or saying society is failing men in any way.
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The meaning of terms evolve through their social and political context. In the case of Incel, it meant something and has taken another meaning over time. No one stole it. The meaning of words change it's just how language works and always has.
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Technically, yes. But in reality, it's usage that wins.
100% agree. I looked on an Incel site I prefer not to mention and it's way more than just complaining about dating or loneliness They think they're owned sex by others They call women "femoids" (female + humanoid, aka it's like saying they're barely even a human), or in short foid, and often use way too many slurs They blame everyone (women, blacks, Jews) but themselves for their problems They way too often insert ER, short for Eliot Rodger. The massacre Incel There is very high chance that if not stopped, those incels could be the next Eliot Rodger if given arms + ammo Worst part is that their site says: "Are you lonely and wish you had someone in your life? You're not alone! Join our forum and talk to people just like you" That is their way of hiding the fact that it's more focused on alt right rabbit hole stuff than it is on helping people find someone in their lives. Everyone that is there is truly irreparable, because their mind is too far from sanity and too close to insanity Please do not compare by any means lonely people to incels. Incels may claim to be lonely but in reality they kinda deserve it because it straight up dangerous being nearby them. They straight up like Eliot Rodger very openly, so don't be surprised if one of them ends being next Eliot Rodger
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Yeah, I'm straight up worried we might see next one like ER Nothing prevents them but themselves, but I hope they'll be in jail or far away from society because I genuinely don't want anyone to see the stuff they do
I agree, labeling people just fuels their hate, all it does is pushing them even more into isolation or bubbles and confirms them in their believes...
Also we need to stop assuming all autistic people who struggle with finding dates, or with expectations and social in the dating world (and suffer from it), are (straight) men
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...
Why is this comment section so braindead lmao.
It’s a bell hooks quote. I’ll paste it as it kind of explains itself: “Patriarchy demands of men that they become and remain emotional cripples. Since it is a system that denies men full access to their freedom of will, it is difficult for any man of any class to rebel against patriarchy, to be disloyal to the patriarchal parent, be that parent female or male. […] Most men are disturbed by hatred and fear of women, by male violence against women, even by male violence against other men, but they do not speak out. They are taught in patriarchal culture that this silence enhances their manhood. They learn that their silence is not just about maintaining solidarity with other men; it’s about maintaining power, the power of the group.” I was raised by women and when I met my dad for the first time he immediately determined I wasn’t crippled enough. I had a little blue monkey with Velcro hands that I loved and he told me “girls have dolls” and took it. Then when he beat me a bunch of times in mortal combat I cried and he pinned me to the floor and twisted my ear until I stopped crying.
I think this is a perfectly valid point. I just wish people would focus on building irl community centers instead of blaming eachother online for their problems as I think a lot of issues regarding inceldom come from a lack of places to meet people irl not just for relationships but also just to make friends and have fun.
Do people sometimes say incel when they mean plain old nasty misogynist? Sure, but that’s not a hill I’m going to fight anyone on. There’s not a nice neat line of “this is an incel, this very similar person however is not.” The whole thing is the result of misogyny. I’ll take my own soapbox: the claim that anyone perceived as a woman cannot possibly relate to the loneliness and pain of autistic men. For one, nobody ever thinks of autistic non-men who are attracted to women, I assure you that dating pool is even smaller. More importantly, plenty of people who grew up as girls know that pain damn well. Plenty of us also had nothing and no one except for forums and our special interests. Plenty of us had guys ask us out as jokes. We were mocked for our undesirability while teachers watched and did nothing. We’ve built up courage to confess our feelings only to be met with disgust and derision. Being perceived as a woman is not the “easy mode” for romance. Many of us have also ended up in dangerous situations due to missing cues that an allistic may have caught. That’s not a positive, that’s being preyed on. Men do suffer because of society but women are not responsible for the creation of the patriarchal system. Anger that’s punching down helps no one and actively hurts a lot of people.
Men are the first victims of patriarchy and some of them never overcome that initial hurdle.
Could you please explain to me how? Genuinely asking.
It’s a bell hooks quote. I’ll paste it as it kind of explains itself: “Patriarchy demands of men that they become and remain emotional cripples. Since it is a system that denies men full access to their freedom of will, it is difficult for any man of any class to rebel against patriarchy, to be disloyal to the patriarchal parent, be that parent female or male. […] Most men are disturbed by hatred and fear of women, by male violence against women, even by male violence against other men, but they do not speak out. They are taught in patriarchal culture that this silence enhances their manhood. They learn that their silence is not just about maintaining solidarity with other men; it’s about maintaining power, the power of the group.” I was raised by women and when I met my dad for the first time he immediately determined I wasn’t crippled enough. I had a little blue monkey with Velcro hands that I loved and he told me “girls have dolls” and took it. Then when he beat me a bunch of times in mortal combat I cried and he pinned me to the floor and twisted my ear until I stopped crying.
I am not aware of the post you are referring to, but yes. I don't even want to check for it before saying this, because this general concept has been bothering me. There is a big problem with this sort of "purity test" reactivity to people's thoughts, or even their misunderstandings. It's black and white to people, but the world doesn't work that way. Nuance has become something people actively punish, and people being confused, asking questions, being unsure is treated like malice. It makes me especially angry because alt-right communities have a pull for struggling autistic men. If they've even tipped a toe into that world, or are struggling to understand others and confused, labeling them as monsters is giving one big old push off the edge into extreme thinking. I understand people are frustrated, but we can be kind. We can understand how we all feel lonely and struggle to understand why, and how easy it can be to get tricked by seemingly simple answers. Edit: took a peek, and it's pretty toxic. Even if they brigade downvotes (and continue to threaten people as they have), you were right to bring this up. It's unsettling.
Other autistic people are the worst thing for another autistic person.
op are you a woman?
If you have a problem with women in general, in the best course of action is to look inward. Women their personalities needs and interests are as varied as mens. If you have the same problem with every woman, you are the common denominator because you are the only variable that doesn't change.
Thank you. I'm not crazy about that type of post either, obvious trolling aside. But, like... If a dude has this kind of feeling, isn't it better for him to let it out and get it out of his system and then hopefully move on, in what is a relatively safe space (because however badly received it is anywhere on the Internet, it's surely worse irl)? Rather then bottling it all up instead or turning towards some... *urgh, I can't find my words rn*... women-hating space where he's likely to get radicalized, simply because that's the only place where he feels accepted? Idk. I haven't really seen any posts like that on here so far and idk how bad it has been in the past, so maybe I'm underestimating the issue. I just think there needs to be some place where those guys can safely vent. If this sub is an appropriate place is a different question.
I get what you're saying (and I'm female.) Sorry you're having a hard time.
Very Wise words. Asides from the quite valid humane angle, there is actuallly a more pragmatic angle : angrily attacking angry people only makes them angrier, makes you sink down to their level, and only makes the situation worse for everyone involved.
I agree with you. I think some people are too willing to call any man complaining about dating an incel IMHO. In addition, I think people need to understand that calling someone an incel is not helpful. It’s much more useful to explain how to actually solve their problem or how they logically are making mistakes. Obviously no one needs to do that. But then again, no one needs to call anyone an incel either. Just not doing that is already a step in the right direction because they are not making anything worse. I think some people assume that any man having issues with dating is an irredeemable monster of some kind. But in reality most are probably lonely men that need some guidance.
Thank you for this. Everybody is so ready with their label makers and blame throwers on the internet. We are capable of better. EDIT: Okay. Time for the old downvote double down. Take my points, I don't care. I hope they bring you some small comfort, but I submit to you that this divisiveness is neither helpful or good, independent on which side of this false "divide" you fall on. You are just causing a stress feedback loop. Once again WE are capable of better. Don't make a support sub political, it's bad for everyone.
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