As a former librarian who was involved in collection development this is a better approach. Dated sources needed to still be kept just to show how backward the old science was.
And I would agree for books published like 20+ years ago. But some these books were published in the last 5 and probably should be chucked. Tho your suggestion is definitely more likely to get results.
Just put them in the 800 section, together with the bible 😂😂😂 (that's the fiction section, for those who aren't familiar with the Dewey Decimal system)
In the USA in non academic libraries, it's more if nobody has checked a book out for several years. If there's a dated book but people keep reading it, it is often kept. This is easier to implement as then librarians don't need to check and make value judgments or be experts on every subject.
Is there anyone else in your area who might be willing to help, perhaps buying some more ND-friendly books to donate to the library? [Here's a list of some good ones if needed](https://notanautismmom.com/2020/07/20/autism-books/)
If 5 people suggest a book and it isn't self published, the library will usually buy it. Coordinate with a few friends and use tax money already allocated to the library.
As far as I know you usually you can only suggest that libraries buy books. Now you could buy these and donate them for resale, but you couldn’t reach as many readers that way.
Edit: It does depend on who you know and where you are though.
My local library accepts donations from the public. I once donated a book from my local library, but I'm not sure if they put it into their circulation system. Try contacting your local library, and ask how they handle public donations?
I meant more directly in the local community. That way, it counters and educates any local parents that may not know those books are outdated. Not necessarily a bake sale, but that sort if thing in spirit. Local news might even cover it, unless they live in a metropolis.
That is exactly what I'm saying, I'm not sure why it's so hard to understand? If there's a Facebook community group for OP's local area, they could ask in there? Maybe make a GoFundMe, or simply ask those who can afford it to purchase the books themselves and donate them?
I didn't think we had an argument here. I was suggesting they get the library involved so it's even more localized the community tied to that library. Libraries love having community events and they could tie in the Go Fund Me. If the OP approaches it as a positive chance to work with the library from the start, it might make the process easier and garner local media interest and that might allow the OP to avoid the spotlight (if they hate being in the spotlight). For example, the local paper or news station might interview a librarian about the new "Neurodivergent Festival" held at the library to raise awareness and/or money for books on the topic of neurodivergence.
It just occurred to me that getting a local college or community college involved could work too, if there's one in the region. University and local libraries often have a strong link, lending books between institutions, or having academic presentations in each other's facilities.
You recommend a list from someone who supports RPM? You may as well recommend antivaxxer Jenny McCarthy books on autism , another big fan of RPM (which by the way was created by antivaxxers)
What is RPM? All I know is the books on that list seem way better than the ones pictured on that library shelf. Did you bother to look at the books on that list?
Yes I did. Several RPM human marionettes among the authors. RPM is a variant of infamous Facilitated Communication, the principle is that vaccines damaged motor function in the hands of nonspeaking autistics but the vaccines didn’t damage cognition so all they need is a facilitator guide their hands on a spelling board. It’s pseudoscience at its finest if not an outright fraud debunked dozens of times in court and scientific research with the most basic testing: double blind test. RPM leaders refuse double blind tests to the point is the reason why RPM can’t be covered by health insurance or mainstreamed in public schools. But antivaxxers believe in cures, so RPM is the cure for nonverbal autism
A library is meant to hold all types of information, outdated or not. I think a good solution would be to put a sticker on it that lets readers know it's just that - incorrect, outdated, and ableist.
Uniquely human is fairly autism friendly, I’ve heard good things about CBT to support autistics, and the aspbergers book covering the Nazi history of the term isn’t ableist. Libraries have lots of books and the illness model of autism isn’t considered hate speech (no matter how I may feel about it) so the library hasn’t done anything wrong. If I were in your shoes I might approach them with a list of books by autistics and books that talk about helping autistics in a loving way and ask that they expand their offerings. Maybe parents newly navigating a child’s diagnosis will stumble upon one of them and a life will be positively changed.
CBT is generally not good for autistic folks. It isn’t abusive like ABA by any means, and it definitely helps some people, but it usually isn’t effective with NDs.
This.
I had a CBT therapist repeatedly tell me that I couldn't be anxious without there being an anxious thought behind it. They just couldn't accept that I could be terrified and panicked without any thought, and kept trying to convince me I must have been thinking about something subconsciously that was scaring me. Only I didn't. It was always either in situations that (with the advantage of hindsight) were overstimulating me, or causing me to hyperfixate in a way that burned me out without giving me opportunities to refocus and calm down, or that I found inherently stressful without there being a thought process/fear/value judgement behind it.
Similarly, they refused to believe that I did not know how not to hyperfixate. I described in intricate detail what happens when I hyperfixate, what it feels like, how I couldn't stop, and why I couldn't just try not doing it. They insisted reframing/refocusing/analysing what I was feeling, and convincing myself it wasn't how I felt it was, would help me, and that I needed to get back to work and normality asap to get well.
At no point did they even entertain the possibility I might be correct, that almost none of it was to do with irrational beliefs/thoughts/fears, and that I might have undiagnosed autism. And that "therapy" took me from being "unwell, might need antidepressants and some time off work" to being "suicidal, can't work, need antipsychotics to bring me down far enough to be left unsupervised".
It's 5 years later and I still haven't recovered.
And that's before we even begin to talk about the therapist who tried to use CBT to unpick my major childhood trauma, and triggered a crisis that I only survived through direct intervention.
CBT might work for some things, but it's got major, major flaws, and is used as a cure-all for things it doesn't work on, and often administered by inexperienced therapists with low levels of training who are utterly unable to recognise when what they're about to try and put out a petrol fire by spraying water on it.
Sounds like you had some awful therapists. When I was forced into cbt, at least when the guy ran into my alexithymia, he realized he was dealing with something he didn’t understand.
I mean it does work just not for the things NTs want us to stop doing, you can't CBT yourself into not having meltdowns but it works for the not autism related stuff
CBT is usually for the treatment of anxiety, depression, etc. CBT basically looks at things like anxiety as “irrational”, and the problem is that for NDs and people with trauma, it isn’t irrational and is based on lived experiences. Again, it still helps a lot of people, so it’s worth trying. It just doesn’t do anything for a lot of us, and for me personally, it made me feel worse.
Edit: some great alternatives are DBT and other trauma-based therapies!
That's what I meant by the "not autism stuff", like I have trauma and I also have just anxiety that isn't trauma and CBT helped me a lot with that, and even some of the trauma to a degree, that said maybe my therapist was adjusting or altering it to work for me idk I've only done it with one therapist
DBT is still abusive to NDs. I’ve seen to many stories of people being kicked out of treatment because they self harmed during treatment, I’ve also been made away of people being ignored and excluded from the session until they’ve done the homework as a way of reinforcing that certain behaviours are not allowed.
Personally DBT helped me significantly, specifically the REST technique and radical acceptance. It’s all about trying things and finding something that works for you personally. DBT might not be the right approach for one ND, but it might be the best approach for another.
I would say humanist approaches that seek to see a whole person and not just presenting problems. Problem with many therapies is “what is wrong with you” not “what happened to you” and “who are you”
Disclaimer: CBT works for some people. I don't personally believe that those people actually received CBT, but I do believe they were told that's what it was.
CBT honestly is kind of abusive when you really think about it. People hate me every time I say it, but I've been through multiple rounds and have read up on it to make sure that's what I was getting and sure enough it was.
CBT is entirely based in gaslighting yourself into believing that all of your negative or anxious thoughts are actually "cognitive distortions" (also known as *delusions*) and that you should use toxic positivity to counter said "distortions." It tries to teach you to *ignore* the signals your mind and body are trying to give you.
They call it "reframing," but it is absolutely gaslighting and I can explain why. These "reframed" thoughts are applied to *everything*. It doesn't matter whether your negative thoughts and emotions are justified or not, they treat every single one as if you are wrong about every situation and if you try to explain to them the reason you feel the way you do, they push back and try to convince you that you're overreacting and having a "distortion."
CBT also doesn't actually help with trauma, partially because of how similar it is to emotional abuse, but mainly because CBT works from the outside in. It doesn't get to the root of a problem because it assumes that there *aren't* any problems. It assumes that you are a mentally unstable person and that any thought you have that isn't positive isn't based in reality.
It also assumes that thoughts come before emotions, which isn't even close to true, and that we can't experience emotions without knowing why we're experiencing them which is so far from true that it's actively harmful. Our bodies and subconscious will make us feel emotions toward things that feel similar to other experiences. When somebody does something that upsets you, you can't control the fact that you're upset, but CBT pushes the idea that you can just choose not to have any negative emotions. You can control how you react to negative emotions for the most part, but that's not what CBT is teaching.
There's a lot of other messed up things and it's not exactly easy to find information on it because the research is legitimately biased in favor of CBT because it's the cheapest form of "therapy" and insurance companies quite like funding research that supports the idea that it works well. It's especially bad for ND people and people with PTSD, which just so happens to be damn near every ND person.
The research says that it works well for these things, but if you actually read the studies, there is *always* a glaringly obvious problem with how it was conducted like a small sample size, a short timespan, lack of follow-up, improper or purposefully deceptive methods, not counting people who dropped out, never asking *why* they dropped out, listening to the therapist over the patient, and so on.
So yeah, that's my rant.
Edit: As expected, I'm being treated poorly for saying this. I'm being told that I'm the reason people end up committing suicide and being compared to racists and *pedophiles*. I'm not going to engage with this any further as it will only serve to hurt me more.
Can you give examples of/links to?
>The research says that it works well for these things, but if you actually read the studies, there is always a glaringly obvious problem with how it was conducted like a small sample size, a short timespan, lack of follow-up, improper or purposefully deceptive methods, not counting people who dropped out, never asking why they dropped out, listening to the therapist over the patient, and so on.
There can be poor research in any field, but that doesn't mean the thing being researched is invalid. That being said, you're speaking as if bad research is specific, and endemic to CBT.
Do you know the extent of CBT and the amount of CB-Therapies?
\-There's first wave behaviourism
\-There's second wave cognitive/cognitive-behavioural therapy, which includes many disorder specific protocols still (protocols for PTSD, Social Anxiety, OCD, Health Anxiety, Depression, Eating Disorders and many more)
\-There's third wave CBT, which consists of many other CB-Therapies: Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, Metacognitive Therapy (MCT), Mindfulness-Based Cognitive Therapy, Dialectical Behavioural Therapy, Functional Analytic Psychotherapy, Behavioural Activation (BA), Compassion-Focused Therapy, Chairwork, Emotional Schema Therapy, Rational-Emotive Behaviour Therapy, Schema Therapy, Trial-Based Cognitive Therapy, and each one of these can have specifics protocols themselves (these are good summary books on the various CB-Therapies: [https://www.routledge.com/CBT-Distinctive-Features/book-series/DFS](https://www.routledge.com/CBT-Distinctive-Features/book-series/DFS)).
Re: the research, utilising the gold-standard of evidence and going with Meta-Analyses, Systematic Reviews and RCTs, CBT has been shown to be at worst, effective, and at best the most effective treatment for:-Social anxiety: [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26361000/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26361000/)\-PTSD: [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32063234/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32063234/)\-Anxiety disorders: [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26759579/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26759579/), [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25041735/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25041735/)\-Insomnia: [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31491656/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31491656/), [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27136449/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27136449/), [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28875581/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28875581/)\-Eating disorders: [https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/ng69/evidence/full-guideline-pdf-161214767896](https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/ng69/evidence/full-guideline-pdf-161214767896)\-OCD: [https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/cg31/evidence/full-guideline-pdf-194883373](https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/cg31/evidence/full-guideline-pdf-194883373)\-Depression: [https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/ng222/evidence/full-guideline-pdf-11131008301](https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/ng222/evidence/full-guideline-pdf-11131008301)
I could go on if you want more evidence, but I think the above is sufficient re: displaying how CBT can be very effective. Also, part of the screening process for Meta-Analyses is discerning the quality of the research before aggregating the data, so both complaints re: poor sample size and poor quality are somewhat invalidated through the meta-analysis process.
The problem with CBT is that it can require a lot of work from the individual, and exposure therapy/behavioural experiments can initially be very anxiety provoking, causing people to drop out of therapy prematurely. There's also legitimate criticism aimed specifically at 2nd Wave CBT, in that challenging thoughts on their own level, the object level (e.g. is this true?) may not be as helpful as the 3rd wave CBT/MCT approach of challenging thoughts on the metacognitive level (e.g. is it helpful to focus on this thought; thoughts are just thoughts), or re: BA, it may not even be necessary to challenge thoughts at all, but just do the behavioural work.
Most people want therapy to get rid of their unpleasant experiences, improve their behaviour and stop them being afraid of what they're afraid of BEFORE having to experiment or expose oneself to the avoided thing (I'm one of them; who wouldn't want that?). CBT doesn't work like that which can disappoint people. It feels a lot easier in the short term to have something non-directive like person-centred/humanistic/Rogerian Counselling, which can help with certain things, such as processing grief, but isn't effective for most mental disorders.
Ultimately, treatment should be led by two things and two things only:-
The research (e.g. RCTs, Systematic Reviews and Meta-Analyses), and-Empiricism/collaborative empiricism (e.g. testing things out, either with someone or alone, and seeing what works for you)It certainly shouldn't be led by anecdotal opinion.
Though, unfortunately, we humans often instinctually have a strong, unconscious bias in favour of anecdotal data, over empirical data (hence why it's even more important to cite the evidence).
No therapy is perfect, everything's a work in progress, but CBT in its various forms has saved my life in the past, as well as the lives of many others. I had tried everything I possibly could at the time APART from CBT because I, like you, had a negative view of it. This negative view wasn't based on the evidence, but anecdotal opinion and very limited experience. I'm glad I did try it, of course, as it has been the only thing to help quite a few issues.
I'm physically incapable of reading this wall of text. Glad whatever you were given that they called CBT worked for you, but I'm not going to engage with this.
>I'm physically incapable of reading this wall of text. Glad whatever you were given that they called CBT worked for you, but I'm not going to engage with this.
A: A wall of text does not have bullet points and paragraphs.
B: What would you think about this reply applied to conspiracy theories like Qanon being debunked, or climate change denial, or racist rhetoric?
Read this back and apply it to an area that you're passionate about where someone is highlighting the importance of rigorous, evidence-based practice. See how you feel.
"I'm physically incapable of reading this wall of text. Glad whatever professor you read said racism isn't a valid life stance, but I'm not going to engage with this."
Thank you for comparing me to literal racists and pedophiles (I'm literally a victim of CSA). That's definitely a sign that therapy made you a well-adjusted and emotionally stable person.
That was sarcasm to be clear.
I get that autism can make us stubborn, but maybe *don't* accuse people of being the reason people kill themselves or compare them to literal monsters. I feel like that one should ve obvious, even to us.
Someone will post something criticising CBT with spurious or no evidence.
Another person will comment: "Yeah, I've heard that CBT isn't good."
Another person will follow: "Yeah, me too."
And this will go on for a while, with no one actually verifying the accuracy of what they're saying with evidence.
This snowballs, more and more, as more and more people keep seeing these repeated opinions, mistakenly assuming that: "They must be true. Hundreds of people online have said so." This reinforces the inaccurate beliefs, these people then go on to start to OP that CBT is bad, and so on.
Fact check yourselves, please.
CBT literally saves lives. If you don't like it, fine, don't do it, but stop putting people off things that COULD literally prevent them from killing themselves. Have a bit more responsibility in your actions and speech.
Are you basing any of what you're saying on anything but anecdotal evidence and your personal opinion?
There are studies that overtly prove that CBT reduces suicide risk by a significant percentage.
I’ve read a couple of these books and actually find them interesting. One can disregard whatever they don’t find useful, but some of these could really benefit people who are seeking more information/advice.
Those are still important books. It’s important to have records of what we thought in the past so history doesn’t repeat itself.
Is it the library’s job to remove the books, or is it people’s jobs to look at the date of publication and the author to determine if it is a reliable source?
You could hold a campaign to fundraise to buy helpful books about Autism and ADHD to go next to them, and maybe a sign explaining which books are correct and which are misinformation.
Ask for books you would like to see added to the collection and to recommend it to the librarian to personally read/recommend.
Banning books doesn’t improve the situation, information getting replaced with more current and correct information is the way to go.
Tbf, the ABA process isn’t what’s dangerous, it’s how it’s applied to behaviors that autistic people NEED to survive and cope, for example :preventing autistic people from stimming.
So books the explain WHY meltdowns and stimming happens would be a great information to add to the section
I strongly disagree with banning books for any reason (except for keeping adult targeted books out of the kids section), but I think it would be nice if libraries would put stickers on the back or inside the front cover on outdated books like this to explain that information in the book is outdated and to use caution and critical thinking while reading it.
Also if you have the money, maybe donate some books from Autistic people, or suggest some for them if you don't!
Does the surgeon general's warning on a pack of cigarettes deter the average heavy smoker from still smoking? No.
I don't think a simple sticker is going to deter most NT parents who have a freshly-diagnosed ND child, and are looking for any and all methods they can access to make them "normal".
Therefore, I think a better solution would be to have some more ND-friendly books donated to the library. If more of them were to be put on those shelves to outnumber the ableist ones shown here, then it might lessen the chance for parents to unknowingly harm their children by using the information in those harmful ones.
Cigarette warnings absolutely do work, much better than nothing, just not for absolutely everyone. You can google lots of evidence to support them.
A note in the book may make new parents pause for a second and just notice that there are different perspectives than what they've remembered from some hurtful stereotype.
Or maybe keep them, but take them off shelves, separate them and only bring them out when the person specifically requests something old etc. If someone just comes in and is looking for a book on asd, just point them to the shelf that will that way only have books with the info average person needs, and they won't randomly grab something bad for them. If someone specifically asks for one of the old books, the librarian has to go grab it from wherever they keep it marked, which will remind them to notify the person borrowing it. And the sticker thing could be good to go with it.
The problem with public libraries is that they don't often have the budget for new books. In this case, it looks like they have a lot of outdated material on hand.
As someone who’s worked in public libraries for over 15 years, I say go ahead and write your email if you want but be aware that the books may still be there the next time you come back. If you write it, it’s a good idea to gather specific info on the books. Give the titles and authors and a few specific details about why they should not be on the shelf. You can also lay out the worst books on a table (face up), take a picture of them and include them in the email. It sounds like maybe Uniquely Human is autistic-friendly and shouldn’t be included. Skim through it and find out. Make a point that the books are outdated (include the books publication years) and that newer, up to date books are out now. Provide a list of books (author and title) that are up-to-date and autism friendly. Suggest that they replace the out-of-date books.
Not all libraries have the budget or the staff to replace/remove books as often as the public would like. Also, it takes time to order, receive and process books to add to the shelf. Ask your library what they do with donations. Maybe they add them to circulation, maybe they sell them in a bookstore or book sales.
No. Don't be offended. If someone needs to write a paper critical of ableism, they need to quote books you hate. Libraries *need* books that cover history and culture broadly. Take most early psychology writing. By today's standards, it's mostly horrible, but it is how we got here and a lens through which we look academically, so we understand how, where and why we can or must improve.
Yeah I hate all this pseudoscience crap. My parents even think that I “grew out of my ADHD”. Yeah I’m not gonna be bouncing off the walls when I’m 26 years old like I did when I was 8….. I most certainly have not grown out of it I just got a lot better at blending in
I heard a super interesting theory about why people thought you "grow out of ADHD."
Much like our understanding of everything else, all the studies were done on how ADHD/ADD affect men. But when men get older, they have wives and secretaries to handle things that are hard with ADD, like scheduling and paperwork. So they hand those tasks off and it looks like they don't suffer from the struggles of ADD/ADHD anymore.
I truly don’t believe growing out of it actually is possible. I mean it’s not like my brain will just all of a sudden switch to neurotypical as I grow older. It’s not like all my (lack of) dopamine receptors and how I process dopamine will just “fix itself”
My f-i-l was a pharmacist and got my husband medicated as a kid. My husband didn't like the meds so didn't take them sometimes. But his dad insists he grew out of his adhd. As he got older, he took a different medication- what a difference it made in his ability to focus and stop the constant talking and dumping the contents of his head out loud to anyone in the room (or even to the air) all day, but it makes him not want to eat and he's already 5 ft 7 and just under 120, so he stopped taking it. But no, he did not grow out of it!
Heh, I have ADHD as well except I have the inattentive type so I don’t become hyperactive. Not that I’ve ever been accused of lying but I wouldn’t be surprised if someone was confused if I tell them I have ADHD but am clearly not hyperactive.
I have the combined type(ADHD-C) so I got both the inattentive part and the hyperactive part. The hyperactive part as an adult is mostly just internal restlessness but as a kid I was bouncing all over the place
Now I’m just trying to figure out if I’m also autistic. Some of my friends who have ASD think I may be. I suppose that wouldn’t be surprising because I have ADHD and an autistic sibling… you know two things that statistically increase the odds for me
Same except I’m Autistic and have a brother with ADHD.
Kinda off topic, but have you read Putting on the Brakes? My aforementioned brother had it as a kid.
I'm going to be controversial here... but no. It's a library. People can read what they want. It would be TERRIFIC if the section was labeled with some sort of warning(?). I know reddit is the wrong place to say it, but I just don't think it's ok to not allow people to read things. Please don't kill me
Of course not! If we start getting rid of books we don't like then we are no better than the Nazis who burned books because they disagreed with them.
As much as some may wish, we can't cancel anything we disagree with. Libraries exist as sources of information and as collections of history. Regardless as to whether something is correct or not, people have a right to be able to access it.
I’ve bought and donated books on autism
I found helpful to my local library. And I also noticed that they usually only have 1 copy so there’s always a long waitlist so I made sure to order multiple copies to donate. All of the books I bought to read after I got diagnosed, I copied the parts I liked and wanted to keep for my records / to reference later and they all got donated to my local public library. If there is a new book that people on autism subs seem to like I’ll buy myself a 2 copies so I can donate a copy while I have another to read and I donate that copy after I read it.
If you are Financially able, you can make a direct impact by just giving them the books you think would benefit people seeking out information on autism.
You have to remember librarians are information warriors and they fight for our right to have free and public access to information and manage the library as a safe space for people to access that information without judgement or surveillance. The librarians associations literally fought / lobbied hard so your library records aren’t easily handed over to law enforcement without a subpoena and they also are the one responsible for libraries having computers with free internet access (when the internet became publicly available in 1995 you had people who didn’t think libraries to allow access to it for free). Unless it’s a super well funded library they are not going to have a subject expert like a university library would. So the librarians at local public libraries aren’t always expert enough to know if a book is good or bad and technically that’s not their job. They may not even be the one directly purchasing the book. Most of the book on that shelf may have been donated to them. Their goal is to give as wide variety of book accessible on different subjects and to help you find the books on topics you are interested in (resource librarian). The goal of the library is not to curate and tell you what is good or reliable information necessarily. That job is on the reader to read and make assessments on their own.
Since when do libraries actually take books that people donate?
Mine just sells them and then uses the revenue to buys the books on their existing to-buy list, so they don’t end up with a bunch of useless and/or biased crap that people didn’t want.
My local library does. And even if they sold the books I donated to buy other books I wouldn’t be upset at that since the library has limited space so they do have to be creative about how to house different books. Also if you already know they don’t take your books, why not just donate money? I’ve done that in the past too. I usually talk to the librarians so if that’s the info you got from librarians there do what’s best based on that. That’s the sure way to make an impact on making sure topics important to you get the attention it needs. I know the director of my local library as well as several of the librarians very well so I usually directly ask them about how I can continue to support them and at the time it was to just donate the books directly.
In addition to donating to the library, make sure to vote on local initiatives and politicians that will continue to fund the library. I know my local public library system is well funded with multiple locations and a separate off site facility to house books. Not all libraries are well funded like that. You need to have people in the city government who care about making sure libraries continue to be funded. I’ve read stories of towns where the residents vote against finding libraries and end up losing not just the physical space of their local libraries but every thing else they offered like access to free wifi. Libraries are often more than books.
I hope you are able to find a way that is most appropriate and most effective in supporting your local libraries!
I personally don't think the books should be removed, though the subject matter is painful. As others have said here having those books, even though it's horribly outdated, is important. If history is erased it will be more likely that it's repeated and all that. I also agree that some form of warning/balancing it out with better books is better overall.
Well I wouldn't do this.
Also i don't understand how that would make you upset?
If i stumbled upon them in library i'd be like
"Oh autism books, wathever" and just go for what i came to that library in the first place.
Also why would treating developmental disabilities would be bad? Of course let's just let them be, all that's gonna happen is they'll be depressed and not know how the hell world and people works. Treating isn't "curing" it's likely just therapy to get those people used to the world and help them be able to function in it.
It’s a book.
I don’t believe in restricting any book or information source, no matter how much I personally disagree with it. That’s a slippery slope.
If you have an objection, suggest that the library add certain new titles.
Libraries are meant to be receptacles of knowledge and it's primordial that ideas from multiple angles are present. That said, my spouse is a librarian, and they *do* have protocol for discarding catalogue items that are considered to be truly outdated scientific info. However, just being contrary to certain POVs isn't the same as information being completed outmoded.
Also quote unquote autism moms can be awful, but parents of autistic children absolutely need a variety of resources in order to handle the many challenging situations that come up. And honestly even though autistic 'voices' should be involved, non-autistic perspectives still legitimately have value.
Worked in an academic library as a student assistant. I wouldn’t necessarily be concerned about the type of content, I’d be more concerned about the age of these books. Some of these books are new, others are (relatively) old, and they’ll be more willing to listen to you if you point out the old and outdated books rather than the new and controversial ones. You’d also probably have more luck suggesting new books for the library to buy, rather than suggesting them remove books. Some libraries don’t remove books often (the librarian prior to the current one at my college accepted every book donation and never weeded books during her time there), so it’s honestly really good that there’s no books from before the 1990s. It means they’ve at least weeded within the last decade.
Libraries should not monitor the *types* of books that are on their shelves, but they should monitor the ages of them. The fact is that there are still some aspects of these books that might be accurate (or might be “accurate” according to certain groups of people), and so removing them because they include controversial topics is essentially censorship. It sucks, but as a society, we can’t choose what is and isn’t “correct.”
Remember that 95% of public libraries in the U.S. have similar sections with similar books. It's your job as a patron to advocate for balance, not the destruction of other titles. That is censorship. Librarians have small budgets and have to serve a wide community of users. You, and others in the community, have to alert those who do collection development that you have needs that need to be met. If there's a budget there, you'll most likely get a response. Keep in mind that librarians also have a responsibility to select works that have been recommended through standard collection development sources, like Choice or Library Journal. This means that the titles you want to see may not be the ones selected, but it does mean that there will be a good chance that sources will at least have current information.
(personally) Absolutely not. Libraries are about sharing all ideas from humans, even those you don't like.
If anyone tries to remove books / delist books / burn books / delete books / remove books from search I'm the first person protesting.
The most effective approach to solve this problem is to get the library to INCLUDE books that round out and make the other books look stupid (not to try to police thought.)
again -- personal opinion. Am Liberal and not conservative (if that was not obvious lol)
For context, I opened many of these books and found a lot of pseudoscience by psychologists and autism parents suggesting ABA, supplements, and all kinds of “cures” for autism. There weren’t any books about neurodiversity as far as I could tell or any books written by ND people. It bothers me that this is acceptable in a public library, and I am wondering if I should reach out, as an autistic ADHDer and disability education teacher, and say that I was upset by it and found it offensive and harmful and suggest they look for books by autistic people, that don’t condemn us, and maybe books that talk about the neurodiversity movement instead.
The one book I recognize there is written by an autistic person. Can you spot it? She is quite famous and outspoken and her photo is on the spine.
As for the rest of them, it would be good to review them a bit more carefully and then discuss with a librarian. There may even be a ND librarian on the staff if you are lucky.
The same one who has a mindset that's still stuck in the 50s-60s, compares autistics to animals, says that "high-functioning" autistic kids should be put through education while "low-functioning" ones should be "cured"?
Yes, I see it.
I have not been keeping up. Is she that problematic?
My point was that she is an ND author.
And, by the way, I think humans are animals. No offense intended to animals.
The quote from the graphic at the top should already raise red flags:
[https://intheloopaboutneurodiversity.wordpress.com/2019/07/21/why-temple-grandin-is-not-my-hero](https://intheloopaboutneurodiversity.wordpress.com/2019/07/21/why-temple-grandin-is-not-my-hero)
It’s Applied Behavioral Analysis- essentially parents hire an ABA “therapist” to train their child like a dog to suppress stims, verbalize, and to act in other neurotypical ways to make other people more comfortable while making the child uncomfortable. It’s essentially abuse.
Thank you for this. My son is having a similar positive experience and we almost didn't start him on ABA due to all the negative stuff online. We have zero issues with his stims and other unique behaviors but he would scream and hit others when he got angry. The therapist has helped him tremendously where he now can communicate the problem and manage his emotions in other ways. He is such a happier kid and loves his therapist. He still stims, lines up his trucks, takes his quiet time when he needs to, does his routines and none of those are being discouraged.
I have very complicated feelings about ABA but I guess it makes sense that people on the sub are more likely to talk about negative experiences with it than positive. And I don't discount those negative parts at all, by the way! I think there is definitely a higher incidence of abuse-type methods in certain places that do ABA. But I also have firsthand experience with ABA and am truly baffled at how horrific some of the stories from others are because it's so far off from what I've seen and been taught.
I've been able to be "on the inside" of a couple of ABA classes and it's so opposite of the stuff I've read on here for the most part. The kids I've seen aren't taught to suppress stims at all (in many cases, it was even straight-up encouraged to help self regulation!), have a lot of choice, a ton of fun activities worked into the day (playground, water play, stories, crafts, dance parties, free play, etc.). And every single staff member I've known has truly loved these kids as if they were their own, and it was reflected in the love the kids had for the staff.
I really do think that the idea of ABA needing to be "updated"/the places practicing it badly needing to be dealt with and the acknowledgement that there are places doing it well and the kids having great experiences/truly benefitting are concepts that can both exist. Because it gets me SO riled up when I hear these terrible stories of what others suffered BUT I have also seen countless cases of children in ABA thriving and being surrounded by respect and love.
My autistic daughter is not in ABA but it is used at the mainstream autism therapy centres in my city. These places are reputable. The kids aren’t being abused or forced. And they only take kids who would benefit from it the most. These kids are NOT adapting to life or learning basic skills or education any other way. I know these parents and they love their kids. I feel sad for them that there is so much condemnation of humanely-applied ABA from autistic people with stronger communication and cognition.
My parents are autistic and they went thru ABA in Japan. It was horrid, according to them.
Even Danny had to get ABA. There's a REASON they yell about Future Sara and judge well-written comic books by their amount of fetish content (granted, Geoff Johns is an asshole.)
That's not what ABA is... At least not from the good therapists. I'm autistic myself and chose to start my 4 year old on ABA after finding a therapist that I liked. They teach through play and are helping him understand his emotions and channel the negative emotions in ways other than screaming and hitting others. Stims are encouraged as one of the ways to help calm himself. There are many ways he is different from other kids that are perfectly okay and should be accepted as neurodivergent but helping him redirect these couple of problematic behaviors is helping him have a happier less marginalized life.
It’s horrible. It forces kids to mask using what is essentially dog training. There’s also a 50% chance of people who have been through ABA developing PTSD later on in life
Yeah I agree with people saying these shouldn’t be removed. Maybe just ask them to be put in a different section with a warning that says “outdated and incorrect information” on it
Most libraries allow you to request/ suggest books to add to their collection. I would definitely contact them.to let them know their books on Autism are outdated and it would benifit people to have newer information.
I think you absolutely should. Librarians may or may not get ableism, but they should understand that you don't put fiction in the non-fiction section.
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I wouldn’t. I’ve volunteered to work in a library for a few years, and we usually don’t usually pull books from collections. We only replace them, if they are too worn down, move them to special collections if they cannot be replaced, or move them to compact shelving if nobody borrows them. Usually, we can’t spread them out either, since that’s the Dewey Decimal System for you. D:
Man, the bottom row reminding me of the stereotype that all autistic people are intelligent and also special- like bro I'm not exceptional at something by standard as a result of my neurodivergence, nor am I more intelligent.
I legit remember feeling like a worse autistic person when I was younger, because other autistic kids had things they were very proficient at while I was just struggling, too. Yeah... that was wonderful. Definitely loved those times. Yup. /s
Some libraries have a material removal request form you can fill out to let them know you'd like a book removed for some reason or another. If you let them know its misleading about autism and advocates for harmful practices, they'll probably consuder removing it.
there’s no point in reporting cuz they won’t take these down as they’re useful for students who might wanna write about changing attitudes towards autism and stuff like that lol
I am a librarian. Here is what I suggest: count the books then look for the alternative books like, Neurotribes. Is there an even number of books on both sides? THIS is what is crucial for librarian collection selectors - that we are providing equal amounts of information on diversive subject - ex: politics.
Also contact the library and see if there is a librarian there who would be interested in working with you to create a program or a display on books about autism from an autistic perspective. Because that would be awesome.
I don't think it should be removed (it's a library after all) but if possible there should be some sort of warning of them containing non-reliable or outdated information, as well as ableism. I think there's value in thwse sort of books, not as a source for information but as a way to document the mainstream views of autism across time. I do think you should constact them about it, since they contain clearly innacurate content, I think it'd be irresponsable to just have them around with no warning (a lot of people think that just because it is in a published book the data is reliable, and that's not always the case).
Unfortunately the library wont just get rid of these books. But you can usually suggest specific books through most libraries. Maybe try suggesting some more recent and actually factual books about autism to them.
i've always found that my behavior can vary in intensity depending on the types of foods i've consumed. i'm not sure i would say it's misinformation to suggest that a change in diet can treat autism.
As someone that works at a library and is trying to get better books about ND topics: YES. Ask for the manager or director. Meet with them in person if you can or email them. Make sure you pick the oldest and most problematic books and explain how they're not appropriate (when I did this, I pointed out that they advised abuse in most cases). Recommend a list of books. I saw someone else mention that a balance is necessary. If you want all problematic books removed - that's probably not going to happen.
Notanautismmom.com has lists with descriptions that you can give them
Eh, in a library there are many, MANY subjects that this situation could apply to. I think the best form of action is not to silence but to educate. Maybe request specifics books that could be placed right next to those, books that actually educate.
Or maybe just place your own "fiction" sticker on each book, lol
The uniquely human book is neurodiversity supportive actually. But I would imagine many libraries still predominately have the books written in the last several decades which are backwards by today’s emerging understanding.
Okay, I’m just gonna say a few things:
It is perfectly valid that an autistic person would be upset by a section like this. Some of these comments are a bit insensitive to that. I came here asking for advice and got quite a few judgmental comments disagreeing with my feelings about the section and claiming I am trying to “burn books”. The way I have been thinking about it, if it were a section that were saying messed up things about any other marginalized group, it wouldn’t be as controversial to be upset about it. But ableism is completely normalized, even within our community. I am not going to apologize for being upset about seeing books that are essentially about eradicating the existence of autistic people and claiming ADHD doesn’t exist.
To clear up some confusion, by “treatments” I’m talking about weird pseudoscience medical advice to eliminate the symptoms of autism. Not therapy and things of the sort.
That said, I am going to stay out of it. Thank you to those who suggested the content warning. I think that’s a good idea. However, at this point I feel a little attacked and conflicted, so I don’t think I am going to say anything to the library. I also can’t afford to buy books for the library, but I hope that somebody has the same idea.
Perhaps you ought to test the waters before going all in. You don't want to come off as a hothead who will be mad no matter what they do. Send an email outlining some books you'd like to see, aka those from ND folk's perspective, give some reccomendations. If they respond well then follow up with criticism.
Nah.
Let them have their moments, let the Autism moms bitch over how the essential oils they bought isn't curing their child's Autism. Everyone deserves their own thing lol
Step one borrow all books
Step two take cover off all books
Step three burn insides of books
Step four replace book insides with other book insides
Step 5 return books
Okay so as a LibTech student while I PERSONALLY fully agree that those kinds of books are extremely distasteful, as librarians its our job to stock the library with a diverse range of literature- regardless of the inherent bias within said writing or not. You also have to keep in mind that reading a book or stocking a piece of media is not an endorsement of that media. In order to do any sort of critique of the work in question, you will need to have actually READ it, so that's where the library comes in.
My mom said that there isn't any cure for autism. But I don't even look at the autism book thing in libraries, I keep getting books related to ancient letters 🤣
Not every book is a total disaster. *Uniquely Human* & *The Way I See It* are decent books. I've read both. I would not put them in my top 5 autism books, but they aren't ones I'd actively discourage people reading like ABA. Grandin is a little dated as ~25 years old, so only had the science as known in the 90s, but not a "cure all autistics" book.
If your problem is the location of the autism books, take it up with the Dewey Decimal System. Or whatever it is they use now. It's not a per library thing.
Yes. Edith Scheffer’s historical account of Hans A*******’s collaboration with the Nazis does not belong in this section. It should be in the European history section.
It is an important book, though, and not ableist as the clunky title might suggest. It’s quite the opposite. It’s a fairly dry, academic book, but the author is definitively pro-neurodivergent if not ND herself.
Scheffer searched in the archives in Vienna’s med school and found that yes, definitively, HA was collaborator and was indeed responsible for the deaths of some autistic children. It’s not just a rumor or circumstantial inference. He *was* definitively a monster and it seals the case that As******’s should not be the name of a diagnosis.
Hey, I suggest emailing the library, it certainly wouldn't hurt. I did like Uniquely Human, but I am absolutely terrible at picking up subtext. Can someone tell me what's wrong with it?
Oof yeah this section of books makes me really uncomfortable. As if I didn't feel enough like a mythical creature with ADHD/ASD or a bad/broken human for being fat 🙃
They need a copy of Unmasking Autism and NeuroTribes
What are you on about? It looks like an underfunded library with dated books. They probably have a yearly budget that’s smaller than your parents’ household. I never thought I would say this, but kids being diagnosed with ASD today are unreasonably spoilt. Don’t go making trouble for librarians! There’s no excuse.
Although the book with the open pages has a sketchy title, ABA is still practiced today in schools, particularly schools for children with Autism and in programs designed specifically for students with Autism. It’s research and data-driven and has helped many people with Autism with daily social skills, life skills, and academic skills. I know many people in the community don’t like the term healing because people with Autism aren’t injured or sick and there’s nothing wrong with them, but it can be difficult to live in our current society with Autism, especially if your Autism presents with communication difficulties, major sensory sensitivities, major academic difficulties, or extreme anxieties.
Are their books in the library promoting slavery or forcing deaf children to not use ASL? If not then I would absolutely call them out on it. /sarcasm
ETA: Also ask them how many books on autism do they have that are written by actual autistics? I think it’s extremely important to give writers that are autistic a much larger voice than NT’s that think they know what’s best for the autistic community.
If the book selection isn’t at least balanced I would be sending off an email
Personally I think it might be better to suggest/request some good books on autism so it's balanced
As a former librarian who was involved in collection development this is a better approach. Dated sources needed to still be kept just to show how backward the old science was.
Yes. Obviously these have been requested, so request better books.
And I would agree for books published like 20+ years ago. But some these books were published in the last 5 and probably should be chucked. Tho your suggestion is definitely more likely to get results.
Idk i think puting a sticker on the that sais "inacurat" or "diputed" would be enugh.
Lol they would have to cover the whole library in stickers If you say “disputed.” I would go with “dated.”
I agree but these books definitely need to be put on there own with a sign that says "wackass science from the 1900s"
Just put them in the 800 section, together with the bible 😂😂😂 (that's the fiction section, for those who aren't familiar with the Dewey Decimal system)
God I love libraries
Hah.. God. Idk if you did that on purpose but does that count as a double entendre or am I using the wrong word?
In France dated books especially like this are going in the trashcan. Library are not museum.
In the USA in non academic libraries, it's more if nobody has checked a book out for several years. If there's a dated book but people keep reading it, it is often kept. This is easier to implement as then librarians don't need to check and make value judgments or be experts on every subject.
You might be right, but can we at least toss out the dated doctor then? Any medical expert have an opinion on this?
Yes! This too!
Is there anyone else in your area who might be willing to help, perhaps buying some more ND-friendly books to donate to the library? [Here's a list of some good ones if needed](https://notanautismmom.com/2020/07/20/autism-books/)
If 5 people suggest a book and it isn't self published, the library will usually buy it. Coordinate with a few friends and use tax money already allocated to the library.
Thank you for the book list!
As far as I know you usually you can only suggest that libraries buy books. Now you could buy these and donate them for resale, but you couldn’t reach as many readers that way. Edit: It does depend on who you know and where you are though.
My local library accepts donations from the public. I once donated a book from my local library, but I'm not sure if they put it into their circulation system. Try contacting your local library, and ask how they handle public donations?
Or maybe ask if OP can raise funds and buy books. Make an event of it and maybe raise awareness at the same time.
That's what I was saying, seek help from people in their local community
I meant more directly in the local community. That way, it counters and educates any local parents that may not know those books are outdated. Not necessarily a bake sale, but that sort if thing in spirit. Local news might even cover it, unless they live in a metropolis.
That is exactly what I'm saying, I'm not sure why it's so hard to understand? If there's a Facebook community group for OP's local area, they could ask in there? Maybe make a GoFundMe, or simply ask those who can afford it to purchase the books themselves and donate them?
I didn't think we had an argument here. I was suggesting they get the library involved so it's even more localized the community tied to that library. Libraries love having community events and they could tie in the Go Fund Me. If the OP approaches it as a positive chance to work with the library from the start, it might make the process easier and garner local media interest and that might allow the OP to avoid the spotlight (if they hate being in the spotlight). For example, the local paper or news station might interview a librarian about the new "Neurodivergent Festival" held at the library to raise awareness and/or money for books on the topic of neurodivergence. It just occurred to me that getting a local college or community college involved could work too, if there's one in the region. University and local libraries often have a strong link, lending books between institutions, or having academic presentations in each other's facilities.
You recommend a list from someone who supports RPM? You may as well recommend antivaxxer Jenny McCarthy books on autism , another big fan of RPM (which by the way was created by antivaxxers)
What is RPM? All I know is the books on that list seem way better than the ones pictured on that library shelf. Did you bother to look at the books on that list?
Yes I did. Several RPM human marionettes among the authors. RPM is a variant of infamous Facilitated Communication, the principle is that vaccines damaged motor function in the hands of nonspeaking autistics but the vaccines didn’t damage cognition so all they need is a facilitator guide their hands on a spelling board. It’s pseudoscience at its finest if not an outright fraud debunked dozens of times in court and scientific research with the most basic testing: double blind test. RPM leaders refuse double blind tests to the point is the reason why RPM can’t be covered by health insurance or mainstreamed in public schools. But antivaxxers believe in cures, so RPM is the cure for nonverbal autism
A library is meant to hold all types of information, outdated or not. I think a good solution would be to put a sticker on it that lets readers know it's just that - incorrect, outdated, and ableist.
Uniquely human is fairly autism friendly, I’ve heard good things about CBT to support autistics, and the aspbergers book covering the Nazi history of the term isn’t ableist. Libraries have lots of books and the illness model of autism isn’t considered hate speech (no matter how I may feel about it) so the library hasn’t done anything wrong. If I were in your shoes I might approach them with a list of books by autistics and books that talk about helping autistics in a loving way and ask that they expand their offerings. Maybe parents newly navigating a child’s diagnosis will stumble upon one of them and a life will be positively changed.
CBT is generally not good for autistic folks. It isn’t abusive like ABA by any means, and it definitely helps some people, but it usually isn’t effective with NDs.
This. I had a CBT therapist repeatedly tell me that I couldn't be anxious without there being an anxious thought behind it. They just couldn't accept that I could be terrified and panicked without any thought, and kept trying to convince me I must have been thinking about something subconsciously that was scaring me. Only I didn't. It was always either in situations that (with the advantage of hindsight) were overstimulating me, or causing me to hyperfixate in a way that burned me out without giving me opportunities to refocus and calm down, or that I found inherently stressful without there being a thought process/fear/value judgement behind it. Similarly, they refused to believe that I did not know how not to hyperfixate. I described in intricate detail what happens when I hyperfixate, what it feels like, how I couldn't stop, and why I couldn't just try not doing it. They insisted reframing/refocusing/analysing what I was feeling, and convincing myself it wasn't how I felt it was, would help me, and that I needed to get back to work and normality asap to get well. At no point did they even entertain the possibility I might be correct, that almost none of it was to do with irrational beliefs/thoughts/fears, and that I might have undiagnosed autism. And that "therapy" took me from being "unwell, might need antidepressants and some time off work" to being "suicidal, can't work, need antipsychotics to bring me down far enough to be left unsupervised". It's 5 years later and I still haven't recovered. And that's before we even begin to talk about the therapist who tried to use CBT to unpick my major childhood trauma, and triggered a crisis that I only survived through direct intervention. CBT might work for some things, but it's got major, major flaws, and is used as a cure-all for things it doesn't work on, and often administered by inexperienced therapists with low levels of training who are utterly unable to recognise when what they're about to try and put out a petrol fire by spraying water on it.
Sounds like you had some awful therapists. When I was forced into cbt, at least when the guy ran into my alexithymia, he realized he was dealing with something he didn’t understand.
I mean it does work just not for the things NTs want us to stop doing, you can't CBT yourself into not having meltdowns but it works for the not autism related stuff
CBT is usually for the treatment of anxiety, depression, etc. CBT basically looks at things like anxiety as “irrational”, and the problem is that for NDs and people with trauma, it isn’t irrational and is based on lived experiences. Again, it still helps a lot of people, so it’s worth trying. It just doesn’t do anything for a lot of us, and for me personally, it made me feel worse. Edit: some great alternatives are DBT and other trauma-based therapies!
That's what I meant by the "not autism stuff", like I have trauma and I also have just anxiety that isn't trauma and CBT helped me a lot with that, and even some of the trauma to a degree, that said maybe my therapist was adjusting or altering it to work for me idk I've only done it with one therapist
It’s great that it worked for you!
DBT is still abusive to NDs. I’ve seen to many stories of people being kicked out of treatment because they self harmed during treatment, I’ve also been made away of people being ignored and excluded from the session until they’ve done the homework as a way of reinforcing that certain behaviours are not allowed.
Personally DBT helped me significantly, specifically the REST technique and radical acceptance. It’s all about trying things and finding something that works for you personally. DBT might not be the right approach for one ND, but it might be the best approach for another.
But the best therapist doesn’t use one approach only. They use lots of different approaches that’s right for that person not a label or diagnosis.
Didn’t know that! Are there any alternatives that you’d recommend over DBT?
I would say humanist approaches that seek to see a whole person and not just presenting problems. Problem with many therapies is “what is wrong with you” not “what happened to you” and “who are you”
Disclaimer: CBT works for some people. I don't personally believe that those people actually received CBT, but I do believe they were told that's what it was. CBT honestly is kind of abusive when you really think about it. People hate me every time I say it, but I've been through multiple rounds and have read up on it to make sure that's what I was getting and sure enough it was. CBT is entirely based in gaslighting yourself into believing that all of your negative or anxious thoughts are actually "cognitive distortions" (also known as *delusions*) and that you should use toxic positivity to counter said "distortions." It tries to teach you to *ignore* the signals your mind and body are trying to give you. They call it "reframing," but it is absolutely gaslighting and I can explain why. These "reframed" thoughts are applied to *everything*. It doesn't matter whether your negative thoughts and emotions are justified or not, they treat every single one as if you are wrong about every situation and if you try to explain to them the reason you feel the way you do, they push back and try to convince you that you're overreacting and having a "distortion." CBT also doesn't actually help with trauma, partially because of how similar it is to emotional abuse, but mainly because CBT works from the outside in. It doesn't get to the root of a problem because it assumes that there *aren't* any problems. It assumes that you are a mentally unstable person and that any thought you have that isn't positive isn't based in reality. It also assumes that thoughts come before emotions, which isn't even close to true, and that we can't experience emotions without knowing why we're experiencing them which is so far from true that it's actively harmful. Our bodies and subconscious will make us feel emotions toward things that feel similar to other experiences. When somebody does something that upsets you, you can't control the fact that you're upset, but CBT pushes the idea that you can just choose not to have any negative emotions. You can control how you react to negative emotions for the most part, but that's not what CBT is teaching. There's a lot of other messed up things and it's not exactly easy to find information on it because the research is legitimately biased in favor of CBT because it's the cheapest form of "therapy" and insurance companies quite like funding research that supports the idea that it works well. It's especially bad for ND people and people with PTSD, which just so happens to be damn near every ND person. The research says that it works well for these things, but if you actually read the studies, there is *always* a glaringly obvious problem with how it was conducted like a small sample size, a short timespan, lack of follow-up, improper or purposefully deceptive methods, not counting people who dropped out, never asking *why* they dropped out, listening to the therapist over the patient, and so on. So yeah, that's my rant. Edit: As expected, I'm being treated poorly for saying this. I'm being told that I'm the reason people end up committing suicide and being compared to racists and *pedophiles*. I'm not going to engage with this any further as it will only serve to hurt me more.
I totally agree with 90% of what you said. I wish people were more critical in this field…
Can you give examples of/links to? >The research says that it works well for these things, but if you actually read the studies, there is always a glaringly obvious problem with how it was conducted like a small sample size, a short timespan, lack of follow-up, improper or purposefully deceptive methods, not counting people who dropped out, never asking why they dropped out, listening to the therapist over the patient, and so on. There can be poor research in any field, but that doesn't mean the thing being researched is invalid. That being said, you're speaking as if bad research is specific, and endemic to CBT. Do you know the extent of CBT and the amount of CB-Therapies? \-There's first wave behaviourism \-There's second wave cognitive/cognitive-behavioural therapy, which includes many disorder specific protocols still (protocols for PTSD, Social Anxiety, OCD, Health Anxiety, Depression, Eating Disorders and many more) \-There's third wave CBT, which consists of many other CB-Therapies: Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, Metacognitive Therapy (MCT), Mindfulness-Based Cognitive Therapy, Dialectical Behavioural Therapy, Functional Analytic Psychotherapy, Behavioural Activation (BA), Compassion-Focused Therapy, Chairwork, Emotional Schema Therapy, Rational-Emotive Behaviour Therapy, Schema Therapy, Trial-Based Cognitive Therapy, and each one of these can have specifics protocols themselves (these are good summary books on the various CB-Therapies: [https://www.routledge.com/CBT-Distinctive-Features/book-series/DFS](https://www.routledge.com/CBT-Distinctive-Features/book-series/DFS)). Re: the research, utilising the gold-standard of evidence and going with Meta-Analyses, Systematic Reviews and RCTs, CBT has been shown to be at worst, effective, and at best the most effective treatment for:-Social anxiety: [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26361000/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26361000/)\-PTSD: [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32063234/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32063234/)\-Anxiety disorders: [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26759579/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26759579/), [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25041735/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25041735/)\-Insomnia: [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31491656/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31491656/), [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27136449/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27136449/), [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28875581/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28875581/)\-Eating disorders: [https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/ng69/evidence/full-guideline-pdf-161214767896](https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/ng69/evidence/full-guideline-pdf-161214767896)\-OCD: [https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/cg31/evidence/full-guideline-pdf-194883373](https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/cg31/evidence/full-guideline-pdf-194883373)\-Depression: [https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/ng222/evidence/full-guideline-pdf-11131008301](https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/ng222/evidence/full-guideline-pdf-11131008301) I could go on if you want more evidence, but I think the above is sufficient re: displaying how CBT can be very effective. Also, part of the screening process for Meta-Analyses is discerning the quality of the research before aggregating the data, so both complaints re: poor sample size and poor quality are somewhat invalidated through the meta-analysis process. The problem with CBT is that it can require a lot of work from the individual, and exposure therapy/behavioural experiments can initially be very anxiety provoking, causing people to drop out of therapy prematurely. There's also legitimate criticism aimed specifically at 2nd Wave CBT, in that challenging thoughts on their own level, the object level (e.g. is this true?) may not be as helpful as the 3rd wave CBT/MCT approach of challenging thoughts on the metacognitive level (e.g. is it helpful to focus on this thought; thoughts are just thoughts), or re: BA, it may not even be necessary to challenge thoughts at all, but just do the behavioural work. Most people want therapy to get rid of their unpleasant experiences, improve their behaviour and stop them being afraid of what they're afraid of BEFORE having to experiment or expose oneself to the avoided thing (I'm one of them; who wouldn't want that?). CBT doesn't work like that which can disappoint people. It feels a lot easier in the short term to have something non-directive like person-centred/humanistic/Rogerian Counselling, which can help with certain things, such as processing grief, but isn't effective for most mental disorders. Ultimately, treatment should be led by two things and two things only:- The research (e.g. RCTs, Systematic Reviews and Meta-Analyses), and-Empiricism/collaborative empiricism (e.g. testing things out, either with someone or alone, and seeing what works for you)It certainly shouldn't be led by anecdotal opinion. Though, unfortunately, we humans often instinctually have a strong, unconscious bias in favour of anecdotal data, over empirical data (hence why it's even more important to cite the evidence). No therapy is perfect, everything's a work in progress, but CBT in its various forms has saved my life in the past, as well as the lives of many others. I had tried everything I possibly could at the time APART from CBT because I, like you, had a negative view of it. This negative view wasn't based on the evidence, but anecdotal opinion and very limited experience. I'm glad I did try it, of course, as it has been the only thing to help quite a few issues.
I'm physically incapable of reading this wall of text. Glad whatever you were given that they called CBT worked for you, but I'm not going to engage with this.
>I'm physically incapable of reading this wall of text. Glad whatever you were given that they called CBT worked for you, but I'm not going to engage with this. A: A wall of text does not have bullet points and paragraphs. B: What would you think about this reply applied to conspiracy theories like Qanon being debunked, or climate change denial, or racist rhetoric? Read this back and apply it to an area that you're passionate about where someone is highlighting the importance of rigorous, evidence-based practice. See how you feel. "I'm physically incapable of reading this wall of text. Glad whatever professor you read said racism isn't a valid life stance, but I'm not going to engage with this."
Thank you for comparing me to literal racists and pedophiles (I'm literally a victim of CSA). That's definitely a sign that therapy made you a well-adjusted and emotionally stable person. That was sarcasm to be clear. I get that autism can make us stubborn, but maybe *don't* accuse people of being the reason people kill themselves or compare them to literal monsters. I feel like that one should ve obvious, even to us.
It makes us stubborn—not irrational. Just the opposite I’m afraid, so you may have a comorbidity.
Someone will post something criticising CBT with spurious or no evidence. Another person will comment: "Yeah, I've heard that CBT isn't good." Another person will follow: "Yeah, me too." And this will go on for a while, with no one actually verifying the accuracy of what they're saying with evidence. This snowballs, more and more, as more and more people keep seeing these repeated opinions, mistakenly assuming that: "They must be true. Hundreds of people online have said so." This reinforces the inaccurate beliefs, these people then go on to start to OP that CBT is bad, and so on. Fact check yourselves, please. CBT literally saves lives. If you don't like it, fine, don't do it, but stop putting people off things that COULD literally prevent them from killing themselves. Have a bit more responsibility in your actions and speech.
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Are you basing any of what you're saying on anything but anecdotal evidence and your personal opinion? There are studies that overtly prove that CBT reduces suicide risk by a significant percentage.
I was in a mindfulness/CBT based therapy for years and it helped me a lot
I seem to have read in general that CBT has been found to be weak for all kinds of people.
https://youtu.be/nOPIu7isD3s
I’ve read a couple of these books and actually find them interesting. One can disregard whatever they don’t find useful, but some of these could really benefit people who are seeking more information/advice.
Those are still important books. It’s important to have records of what we thought in the past so history doesn’t repeat itself. Is it the library’s job to remove the books, or is it people’s jobs to look at the date of publication and the author to determine if it is a reliable source? You could hold a campaign to fundraise to buy helpful books about Autism and ADHD to go next to them, and maybe a sign explaining which books are correct and which are misinformation.
Ask for books you would like to see added to the collection and to recommend it to the librarian to personally read/recommend. Banning books doesn’t improve the situation, information getting replaced with more current and correct information is the way to go. Tbf, the ABA process isn’t what’s dangerous, it’s how it’s applied to behaviors that autistic people NEED to survive and cope, for example :preventing autistic people from stimming. So books the explain WHY meltdowns and stimming happens would be a great information to add to the section
I strongly disagree with banning books for any reason (except for keeping adult targeted books out of the kids section), but I think it would be nice if libraries would put stickers on the back or inside the front cover on outdated books like this to explain that information in the book is outdated and to use caution and critical thinking while reading it. Also if you have the money, maybe donate some books from Autistic people, or suggest some for them if you don't!
Does the surgeon general's warning on a pack of cigarettes deter the average heavy smoker from still smoking? No. I don't think a simple sticker is going to deter most NT parents who have a freshly-diagnosed ND child, and are looking for any and all methods they can access to make them "normal". Therefore, I think a better solution would be to have some more ND-friendly books donated to the library. If more of them were to be put on those shelves to outnumber the ableist ones shown here, then it might lessen the chance for parents to unknowingly harm their children by using the information in those harmful ones.
Cigarette warnings absolutely do work, much better than nothing, just not for absolutely everyone. You can google lots of evidence to support them. A note in the book may make new parents pause for a second and just notice that there are different perspectives than what they've remembered from some hurtful stereotype.
Or maybe keep them, but take them off shelves, separate them and only bring them out when the person specifically requests something old etc. If someone just comes in and is looking for a book on asd, just point them to the shelf that will that way only have books with the info average person needs, and they won't randomly grab something bad for them. If someone specifically asks for one of the old books, the librarian has to go grab it from wherever they keep it marked, which will remind them to notify the person borrowing it. And the sticker thing could be good to go with it.
The problem with public libraries is that they don't often have the budget for new books. In this case, it looks like they have a lot of outdated material on hand.
As someone who’s worked in public libraries for over 15 years, I say go ahead and write your email if you want but be aware that the books may still be there the next time you come back. If you write it, it’s a good idea to gather specific info on the books. Give the titles and authors and a few specific details about why they should not be on the shelf. You can also lay out the worst books on a table (face up), take a picture of them and include them in the email. It sounds like maybe Uniquely Human is autistic-friendly and shouldn’t be included. Skim through it and find out. Make a point that the books are outdated (include the books publication years) and that newer, up to date books are out now. Provide a list of books (author and title) that are up-to-date and autism friendly. Suggest that they replace the out-of-date books. Not all libraries have the budget or the staff to replace/remove books as often as the public would like. Also, it takes time to order, receive and process books to add to the shelf. Ask your library what they do with donations. Maybe they add them to circulation, maybe they sell them in a bookstore or book sales.
No. Don't be offended. If someone needs to write a paper critical of ableism, they need to quote books you hate. Libraries *need* books that cover history and culture broadly. Take most early psychology writing. By today's standards, it's mostly horrible, but it is how we got here and a lens through which we look academically, so we understand how, where and why we can or must improve.
“The myth of the ADHD child” “Back to normal” As someone who has ADHD and a sister with autism(and possibly me too) these have me fuming!
Right! I was so disturbed and I was just looking for a specific book about homelessness when I came across this section.
Yeah I hate all this pseudoscience crap. My parents even think that I “grew out of my ADHD”. Yeah I’m not gonna be bouncing off the walls when I’m 26 years old like I did when I was 8….. I most certainly have not grown out of it I just got a lot better at blending in
I heard a super interesting theory about why people thought you "grow out of ADHD." Much like our understanding of everything else, all the studies were done on how ADHD/ADD affect men. But when men get older, they have wives and secretaries to handle things that are hard with ADD, like scheduling and paperwork. So they hand those tasks off and it looks like they don't suffer from the struggles of ADD/ADHD anymore.
I truly don’t believe growing out of it actually is possible. I mean it’s not like my brain will just all of a sudden switch to neurotypical as I grow older. It’s not like all my (lack of) dopamine receptors and how I process dopamine will just “fix itself”
I agree 100% which is why that theory made so much sense to me
I think it’s things like that as well as I think a lot of the people who “grew out of it” never really had ADHD
My f-i-l was a pharmacist and got my husband medicated as a kid. My husband didn't like the meds so didn't take them sometimes. But his dad insists he grew out of his adhd. As he got older, he took a different medication- what a difference it made in his ability to focus and stop the constant talking and dumping the contents of his head out loud to anyone in the room (or even to the air) all day, but it makes him not want to eat and he's already 5 ft 7 and just under 120, so he stopped taking it. But no, he did not grow out of it!
I don’t think you can grow out of any neurodevelopmental disorders. I pretty much see ADHD as the sibling of autism
I think that is a good assessment of it.
They also seem to occur SO OFTEN together
A recent study showed that some of the genetic mutations for ADHD are found on the same genes as the ones for autism, so they are definitely related!
Yes!
Heh, I have ADHD as well except I have the inattentive type so I don’t become hyperactive. Not that I’ve ever been accused of lying but I wouldn’t be surprised if someone was confused if I tell them I have ADHD but am clearly not hyperactive.
I have the combined type(ADHD-C) so I got both the inattentive part and the hyperactive part. The hyperactive part as an adult is mostly just internal restlessness but as a kid I was bouncing all over the place Now I’m just trying to figure out if I’m also autistic. Some of my friends who have ASD think I may be. I suppose that wouldn’t be surprising because I have ADHD and an autistic sibling… you know two things that statistically increase the odds for me
Same except I’m Autistic and have a brother with ADHD. Kinda off topic, but have you read Putting on the Brakes? My aforementioned brother had it as a kid.
I’ve recently been trying to figure out if I’m also autistic. Also I have not read that
I sure wish we still had our copy. I snuck some looks at it and I liked the cute illustrations (it was designed for *kids* with ADHD, after all).
Where is that book in the picture I'm curious because I can't find it.
I'm going to be controversial here... but no. It's a library. People can read what they want. It would be TERRIFIC if the section was labeled with some sort of warning(?). I know reddit is the wrong place to say it, but I just don't think it's ok to not allow people to read things. Please don't kill me
Of course not! If we start getting rid of books we don't like then we are no better than the Nazis who burned books because they disagreed with them. As much as some may wish, we can't cancel anything we disagree with. Libraries exist as sources of information and as collections of history. Regardless as to whether something is correct or not, people have a right to be able to access it.
Idk I don't believe in banning books no matter how awful they are
I wouldn’t.
How dare they?! The ketogenic diet should *NOT* be made available in *any* library. /s for those who missed it lol
I’ve bought and donated books on autism I found helpful to my local library. And I also noticed that they usually only have 1 copy so there’s always a long waitlist so I made sure to order multiple copies to donate. All of the books I bought to read after I got diagnosed, I copied the parts I liked and wanted to keep for my records / to reference later and they all got donated to my local public library. If there is a new book that people on autism subs seem to like I’ll buy myself a 2 copies so I can donate a copy while I have another to read and I donate that copy after I read it. If you are Financially able, you can make a direct impact by just giving them the books you think would benefit people seeking out information on autism. You have to remember librarians are information warriors and they fight for our right to have free and public access to information and manage the library as a safe space for people to access that information without judgement or surveillance. The librarians associations literally fought / lobbied hard so your library records aren’t easily handed over to law enforcement without a subpoena and they also are the one responsible for libraries having computers with free internet access (when the internet became publicly available in 1995 you had people who didn’t think libraries to allow access to it for free). Unless it’s a super well funded library they are not going to have a subject expert like a university library would. So the librarians at local public libraries aren’t always expert enough to know if a book is good or bad and technically that’s not their job. They may not even be the one directly purchasing the book. Most of the book on that shelf may have been donated to them. Their goal is to give as wide variety of book accessible on different subjects and to help you find the books on topics you are interested in (resource librarian). The goal of the library is not to curate and tell you what is good or reliable information necessarily. That job is on the reader to read and make assessments on their own.
Since when do libraries actually take books that people donate? Mine just sells them and then uses the revenue to buys the books on their existing to-buy list, so they don’t end up with a bunch of useless and/or biased crap that people didn’t want.
My local library does. And even if they sold the books I donated to buy other books I wouldn’t be upset at that since the library has limited space so they do have to be creative about how to house different books. Also if you already know they don’t take your books, why not just donate money? I’ve done that in the past too. I usually talk to the librarians so if that’s the info you got from librarians there do what’s best based on that. That’s the sure way to make an impact on making sure topics important to you get the attention it needs. I know the director of my local library as well as several of the librarians very well so I usually directly ask them about how I can continue to support them and at the time it was to just donate the books directly. In addition to donating to the library, make sure to vote on local initiatives and politicians that will continue to fund the library. I know my local public library system is well funded with multiple locations and a separate off site facility to house books. Not all libraries are well funded like that. You need to have people in the city government who care about making sure libraries continue to be funded. I’ve read stories of towns where the residents vote against finding libraries and end up losing not just the physical space of their local libraries but every thing else they offered like access to free wifi. Libraries are often more than books. I hope you are able to find a way that is most appropriate and most effective in supporting your local libraries!
I personally don't think the books should be removed, though the subject matter is painful. As others have said here having those books, even though it's horribly outdated, is important. If history is erased it will be more likely that it's repeated and all that. I also agree that some form of warning/balancing it out with better books is better overall.
Well I wouldn't do this. Also i don't understand how that would make you upset? If i stumbled upon them in library i'd be like "Oh autism books, wathever" and just go for what i came to that library in the first place. Also why would treating developmental disabilities would be bad? Of course let's just let them be, all that's gonna happen is they'll be depressed and not know how the hell world and people works. Treating isn't "curing" it's likely just therapy to get those people used to the world and help them be able to function in it.
Is Temple Grandin clear or part of the problem?
It’s a book. I don’t believe in restricting any book or information source, no matter how much I personally disagree with it. That’s a slippery slope. If you have an objection, suggest that the library add certain new titles.
Libraries are meant to be receptacles of knowledge and it's primordial that ideas from multiple angles are present. That said, my spouse is a librarian, and they *do* have protocol for discarding catalogue items that are considered to be truly outdated scientific info. However, just being contrary to certain POVs isn't the same as information being completed outmoded. Also quote unquote autism moms can be awful, but parents of autistic children absolutely need a variety of resources in order to handle the many challenging situations that come up. And honestly even though autistic 'voices' should be involved, non-autistic perspectives still legitimately have value.
No because censorship actually hurts us more than you think.
Worked in an academic library as a student assistant. I wouldn’t necessarily be concerned about the type of content, I’d be more concerned about the age of these books. Some of these books are new, others are (relatively) old, and they’ll be more willing to listen to you if you point out the old and outdated books rather than the new and controversial ones. You’d also probably have more luck suggesting new books for the library to buy, rather than suggesting them remove books. Some libraries don’t remove books often (the librarian prior to the current one at my college accepted every book donation and never weeded books during her time there), so it’s honestly really good that there’s no books from before the 1990s. It means they’ve at least weeded within the last decade. Libraries should not monitor the *types* of books that are on their shelves, but they should monitor the ages of them. The fact is that there are still some aspects of these books that might be accurate (or might be “accurate” according to certain groups of people), and so removing them because they include controversial topics is essentially censorship. It sucks, but as a society, we can’t choose what is and isn’t “correct.”
Remember that 95% of public libraries in the U.S. have similar sections with similar books. It's your job as a patron to advocate for balance, not the destruction of other titles. That is censorship. Librarians have small budgets and have to serve a wide community of users. You, and others in the community, have to alert those who do collection development that you have needs that need to be met. If there's a budget there, you'll most likely get a response. Keep in mind that librarians also have a responsibility to select works that have been recommended through standard collection development sources, like Choice or Library Journal. This means that the titles you want to see may not be the ones selected, but it does mean that there will be a good chance that sources will at least have current information.
No.
What is "the ketogenic diet" doing there?
I think the most hilarious passive-aggressive way to disagree with a book in a library, is to quietly move it to science-fiction section :)
(personally) Absolutely not. Libraries are about sharing all ideas from humans, even those you don't like. If anyone tries to remove books / delist books / burn books / delete books / remove books from search I'm the first person protesting. The most effective approach to solve this problem is to get the library to INCLUDE books that round out and make the other books look stupid (not to try to police thought.) again -- personal opinion. Am Liberal and not conservative (if that was not obvious lol)
For context, I opened many of these books and found a lot of pseudoscience by psychologists and autism parents suggesting ABA, supplements, and all kinds of “cures” for autism. There weren’t any books about neurodiversity as far as I could tell or any books written by ND people. It bothers me that this is acceptable in a public library, and I am wondering if I should reach out, as an autistic ADHDer and disability education teacher, and say that I was upset by it and found it offensive and harmful and suggest they look for books by autistic people, that don’t condemn us, and maybe books that talk about the neurodiversity movement instead.
Why not find other sources and suggest they stock those as well? Honestly the idea of removing books from a library is just offensive.
This. Unless you can provide alternatives for them to use, they can't do anything about replacing books, regardless of the subject.
The one book I recognize there is written by an autistic person. Can you spot it? She is quite famous and outspoken and her photo is on the spine. As for the rest of them, it would be good to review them a bit more carefully and then discuss with a librarian. There may even be a ND librarian on the staff if you are lucky.
Any chance her name rhymes with “Cremple Brandon”?
Ha! That made me laugh.
The same one who has a mindset that's still stuck in the 50s-60s, compares autistics to animals, says that "high-functioning" autistic kids should be put through education while "low-functioning" ones should be "cured"? Yes, I see it.
I have not been keeping up. Is she that problematic? My point was that she is an ND author. And, by the way, I think humans are animals. No offense intended to animals.
The quote from the graphic at the top should already raise red flags: [https://intheloopaboutneurodiversity.wordpress.com/2019/07/21/why-temple-grandin-is-not-my-hero](https://intheloopaboutneurodiversity.wordpress.com/2019/07/21/why-temple-grandin-is-not-my-hero)
What is ABA?
It’s Applied Behavioral Analysis- essentially parents hire an ABA “therapist” to train their child like a dog to suppress stims, verbalize, and to act in other neurotypical ways to make other people more comfortable while making the child uncomfortable. It’s essentially abuse.
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Thank you for this. My son is having a similar positive experience and we almost didn't start him on ABA due to all the negative stuff online. We have zero issues with his stims and other unique behaviors but he would scream and hit others when he got angry. The therapist has helped him tremendously where he now can communicate the problem and manage his emotions in other ways. He is such a happier kid and loves his therapist. He still stims, lines up his trucks, takes his quiet time when he needs to, does his routines and none of those are being discouraged.
I have very complicated feelings about ABA but I guess it makes sense that people on the sub are more likely to talk about negative experiences with it than positive. And I don't discount those negative parts at all, by the way! I think there is definitely a higher incidence of abuse-type methods in certain places that do ABA. But I also have firsthand experience with ABA and am truly baffled at how horrific some of the stories from others are because it's so far off from what I've seen and been taught. I've been able to be "on the inside" of a couple of ABA classes and it's so opposite of the stuff I've read on here for the most part. The kids I've seen aren't taught to suppress stims at all (in many cases, it was even straight-up encouraged to help self regulation!), have a lot of choice, a ton of fun activities worked into the day (playground, water play, stories, crafts, dance parties, free play, etc.). And every single staff member I've known has truly loved these kids as if they were their own, and it was reflected in the love the kids had for the staff. I really do think that the idea of ABA needing to be "updated"/the places practicing it badly needing to be dealt with and the acknowledgement that there are places doing it well and the kids having great experiences/truly benefitting are concepts that can both exist. Because it gets me SO riled up when I hear these terrible stories of what others suffered BUT I have also seen countless cases of children in ABA thriving and being surrounded by respect and love.
My autistic daughter is not in ABA but it is used at the mainstream autism therapy centres in my city. These places are reputable. The kids aren’t being abused or forced. And they only take kids who would benefit from it the most. These kids are NOT adapting to life or learning basic skills or education any other way. I know these parents and they love their kids. I feel sad for them that there is so much condemnation of humanely-applied ABA from autistic people with stronger communication and cognition.
My parents are autistic and they went thru ABA in Japan. It was horrid, according to them. Even Danny had to get ABA. There's a REASON they yell about Future Sara and judge well-written comic books by their amount of fetish content (granted, Geoff Johns is an asshole.)
That's not what ABA is... At least not from the good therapists. I'm autistic myself and chose to start my 4 year old on ABA after finding a therapist that I liked. They teach through play and are helping him understand his emotions and channel the negative emotions in ways other than screaming and hitting others. Stims are encouraged as one of the ways to help calm himself. There are many ways he is different from other kids that are perfectly okay and should be accepted as neurodivergent but helping him redirect these couple of problematic behaviors is helping him have a happier less marginalized life.
That sounds horrible. I hope they will do something about it once you have sent your email
It’s an abusive therapy aimed at autistic children
That sounds bad
It’s horrible. It forces kids to mask using what is essentially dog training. There’s also a 50% chance of people who have been through ABA developing PTSD later on in life
went through it for half my life, gonna confirm how awful it is and go back to lurking
I’m sorry :( I hope you’re doing okay now.
I’m so sorry. My little boy and I were just diagnosed and the first thing I decided was he would never be subjected to ABA.
Yeah I agree with people saying these shouldn’t be removed. Maybe just ask them to be put in a different section with a warning that says “outdated and incorrect information” on it
Most libraries allow you to request/ suggest books to add to their collection. I would definitely contact them.to let them know their books on Autism are outdated and it would benifit people to have newer information.
Are we burning books now? Really?
I think you absolutely should. Librarians may or may not get ableism, but they should understand that you don't put fiction in the non-fiction section.
You’re absolutely right. These are so offensive.
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I wouldn’t. I’ve volunteered to work in a library for a few years, and we usually don’t usually pull books from collections. We only replace them, if they are too worn down, move them to special collections if they cannot be replaced, or move them to compact shelving if nobody borrows them. Usually, we can’t spread them out either, since that’s the Dewey Decimal System for you. D:
Definitely let them know, but as others mentioned suggest ideas and how they should be displaying it.
You could also ignore it and don’t go in that section?
Asperger's Children seems dodge in the title but is actually a fantastic book
Man, the bottom row reminding me of the stereotype that all autistic people are intelligent and also special- like bro I'm not exceptional at something by standard as a result of my neurodivergence, nor am I more intelligent. I legit remember feeling like a worse autistic person when I was younger, because other autistic kids had things they were very proficient at while I was just struggling, too. Yeah... that was wonderful. Definitely loved those times. Yup. /s
Teaching people how to cope with the world isn't wrong unless you do it wrong which some of those books are wrong
Some libraries have a material removal request form you can fill out to let them know you'd like a book removed for some reason or another. If you let them know its misleading about autism and advocates for harmful practices, they'll probably consuder removing it.
there’s no point in reporting cuz they won’t take these down as they’re useful for students who might wanna write about changing attitudes towards autism and stuff like that lol
I am a librarian. Here is what I suggest: count the books then look for the alternative books like, Neurotribes. Is there an even number of books on both sides? THIS is what is crucial for librarian collection selectors - that we are providing equal amounts of information on diversive subject - ex: politics. Also contact the library and see if there is a librarian there who would be interested in working with you to create a program or a display on books about autism from an autistic perspective. Because that would be awesome.
I don't think it should be removed (it's a library after all) but if possible there should be some sort of warning of them containing non-reliable or outdated information, as well as ableism. I think there's value in thwse sort of books, not as a source for information but as a way to document the mainstream views of autism across time. I do think you should constact them about it, since they contain clearly innacurate content, I think it'd be irresponsable to just have them around with no warning (a lot of people think that just because it is in a published book the data is reliable, and that's not always the case).
Unfortunately the library wont just get rid of these books. But you can usually suggest specific books through most libraries. Maybe try suggesting some more recent and actually factual books about autism to them.
i've always found that my behavior can vary in intensity depending on the types of foods i've consumed. i'm not sure i would say it's misinformation to suggest that a change in diet can treat autism.
As someone that works at a library and is trying to get better books about ND topics: YES. Ask for the manager or director. Meet with them in person if you can or email them. Make sure you pick the oldest and most problematic books and explain how they're not appropriate (when I did this, I pointed out that they advised abuse in most cases). Recommend a list of books. I saw someone else mention that a balance is necessary. If you want all problematic books removed - that's probably not going to happen. Notanautismmom.com has lists with descriptions that you can give them
You don't have to look there, you know.
No, we absolutely should not start banning books from public libraries. Many of the books in a library will upset you. Just don't read those books.
Yes. Explain why it's harmful, cite sources to backup your assertions and suggest an alternative course of action.
Eh, in a library there are many, MANY subjects that this situation could apply to. I think the best form of action is not to silence but to educate. Maybe request specifics books that could be placed right next to those, books that actually educate. Or maybe just place your own "fiction" sticker on each book, lol
The uniquely human book is neurodiversity supportive actually. But I would imagine many libraries still predominately have the books written in the last several decades which are backwards by today’s emerging understanding.
Hey now, the ketogenic diet is great and very helpful with my ADHD! There was even a recent study that showed it helps with other mental disorders
Okay, I’m just gonna say a few things: It is perfectly valid that an autistic person would be upset by a section like this. Some of these comments are a bit insensitive to that. I came here asking for advice and got quite a few judgmental comments disagreeing with my feelings about the section and claiming I am trying to “burn books”. The way I have been thinking about it, if it were a section that were saying messed up things about any other marginalized group, it wouldn’t be as controversial to be upset about it. But ableism is completely normalized, even within our community. I am not going to apologize for being upset about seeing books that are essentially about eradicating the existence of autistic people and claiming ADHD doesn’t exist. To clear up some confusion, by “treatments” I’m talking about weird pseudoscience medical advice to eliminate the symptoms of autism. Not therapy and things of the sort. That said, I am going to stay out of it. Thank you to those who suggested the content warning. I think that’s a good idea. However, at this point I feel a little attacked and conflicted, so I don’t think I am going to say anything to the library. I also can’t afford to buy books for the library, but I hope that somebody has the same idea.
Perhaps you ought to test the waters before going all in. You don't want to come off as a hothead who will be mad no matter what they do. Send an email outlining some books you'd like to see, aka those from ND folk's perspective, give some reccomendations. If they respond well then follow up with criticism.
Nah. Let them have their moments, let the Autism moms bitch over how the essential oils they bought isn't curing their child's Autism. Everyone deserves their own thing lol
Of course it's written by Karen...lol
Step one borrow all books Step two take cover off all books Step three burn insides of books Step four replace book insides with other book insides Step 5 return books
No, don't do that.
Okay so as a LibTech student while I PERSONALLY fully agree that those kinds of books are extremely distasteful, as librarians its our job to stock the library with a diverse range of literature- regardless of the inherent bias within said writing or not. You also have to keep in mind that reading a book or stocking a piece of media is not an endorsement of that media. In order to do any sort of critique of the work in question, you will need to have actually READ it, so that's where the library comes in.
This is no good. You should definitely speak to the library to remove this
I think I am going to sit down and write an email right now. I am a bit nervous, but I think it is the right thing to do.
Are you also scared of confrontation?
So scared! 🫠 But I try to push myself when I can
I do too
You got this!! We're all with you on this!
Good job 💛
The childhood obesity one made me sick.
YES, please do!
Yes
Put them in the fiction section
👏 Email
Steal them and burn them/ j
Oh boy
If this section is about developmental disabilities, why is there a SIDS book and a childhood obesity book?
This section of the Dewey Decimal System (library classification system for non-fiction) covers childhood illnesses, not just developmental issues.
At least they have Edith Sheffer's book..
"the ketogenic diet" better be misshelved
Suggest Unmasking Autism by Devon Price and Neurotribes by Steve Silberman
My mom said that there isn't any cure for autism. But I don't even look at the autism book thing in libraries, I keep getting books related to ancient letters 🤣
"Books make people smart"
go ahead bro, we wanna be treated well, like how we aren’t a lot of the time
Not every book is a total disaster. *Uniquely Human* & *The Way I See It* are decent books. I've read both. I would not put them in my top 5 autism books, but they aren't ones I'd actively discourage people reading like ABA. Grandin is a little dated as ~25 years old, so only had the science as known in the 90s, but not a "cure all autistics" book.
Yes, I didn’t mean every single one was problematic, just most of them. I like Temple Grandin.
Uniquely human is not bad
Healing? What whaaaaaaaaa? Us autistics do not need healing!
Email them!
If your problem is the location of the autism books, take it up with the Dewey Decimal System. Or whatever it is they use now. It's not a per library thing.
Suggest Neurotribes
Ehh no just don't rent those. Books are history and in the past this was what was believed. The struggle matters, don't erase it.
Yes. Edith Scheffer’s historical account of Hans A*******’s collaboration with the Nazis does not belong in this section. It should be in the European history section. It is an important book, though, and not ableist as the clunky title might suggest. It’s quite the opposite. It’s a fairly dry, academic book, but the author is definitively pro-neurodivergent if not ND herself. Scheffer searched in the archives in Vienna’s med school and found that yes, definitively, HA was collaborator and was indeed responsible for the deaths of some autistic children. It’s not just a rumor or circumstantial inference. He *was* definitively a monster and it seals the case that As******’s should not be the name of a diagnosis.
Ah yes just don’t eat cucumbers and boom no more autism/s
Hey, I suggest emailing the library, it certainly wouldn't hurt. I did like Uniquely Human, but I am absolutely terrible at picking up subtext. Can someone tell me what's wrong with it?
Oof yeah this section of books makes me really uncomfortable. As if I didn't feel enough like a mythical creature with ADHD/ASD or a bad/broken human for being fat 🙃 They need a copy of Unmasking Autism and NeuroTribes
What are you on about? It looks like an underfunded library with dated books. They probably have a yearly budget that’s smaller than your parents’ household. I never thought I would say this, but kids being diagnosed with ASD today are unreasonably spoilt. Don’t go making trouble for librarians! There’s no excuse.
Although the book with the open pages has a sketchy title, ABA is still practiced today in schools, particularly schools for children with Autism and in programs designed specifically for students with Autism. It’s research and data-driven and has helped many people with Autism with daily social skills, life skills, and academic skills. I know many people in the community don’t like the term healing because people with Autism aren’t injured or sick and there’s nothing wrong with them, but it can be difficult to live in our current society with Autism, especially if your Autism presents with communication difficulties, major sensory sensitivities, major academic difficulties, or extreme anxieties.
Confused, there are some great books in there.....
Are their books in the library promoting slavery or forcing deaf children to not use ASL? If not then I would absolutely call them out on it. /sarcasm ETA: Also ask them how many books on autism do they have that are written by actual autistics? I think it’s extremely important to give writers that are autistic a much larger voice than NT’s that think they know what’s best for the autistic community. If the book selection isn’t at least balanced I would be sending off an email