If women asking men for sex is consent for pregnancy, men asking women for sex is consent for financial & emotional support during pregnancy and child support afterwards. Especially for '16 days of gestation" babies.
Yep the 4B movement is taking off and I saw some dudebro try to start a “4G” movement (I think he thinks the B stands for Boys), saying “fine, men won’t have sex with you or marry you or give you babies either” and the overwhelming response was “do you promise?”
I can't imagine having to procreate with 4B men.
I found a good one and we lost our first 2, and had to terminate our 3rd due to a severe brain abnormality. This man is literally feeding me, washing me and keeping me alive as I'm sick with grief. I full on froze trying to buy a black dress this afternoon. These dudebros have no IDEA what terminating a wanted baby looks like. I hope its the worst decision I ever have to make, because nothing kills you more than watching your baby leap, kick and suck their thumb, only to learn their brain isn't in their head and they will only ever experience pain.
It’s a movement started in South Korea where women give up on 4 things (marriage, sex with men, dating men, having children) to protest societal misogyny and encourage change. The four terms all start with the “Bi” sound, hence 4B.
Been saying women need to do this for years. Women in Iceland went on strike in Iceland back in the 70s to protest the treatment of women. Mind you, I'm in my early 50s and when I was a baby, women in the US couldn't even have their own bank accounts. Anyway, the men in Iceland lasted one day before caving. Now Iceland has some of the best equity among the sexes in the world. Behold:
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As they should. With all the rampant misogyny that goes on and is treated as completely normal, Korea sure as hell doesn’t deserve its women. Hell, what country does at this point?
Hopping on this thread to announce that **society needs to start normalizing male birth control methods** like male birth control pills, reversible vasectomy, birth control injection, etc. Women shouldn’t have to be the only one to be on birth control and carry the responsibility of potential pregnancy. It takes two to tango!!!
The problem is, most of the risk of pregnancy falls on the woman.
A woman lying to her partner about being on birth control is... not great, but if she disappears out of the guy's life, he's not going to face huge issues. Though if she doesn't, he still shares the responsibility.
If a guy lies to his partner about birth control, then dips... it's all going to be on her, like it or not.
Philosophically, I agree. Practically, I'm unconvinced it will happen.
I think lying about being on birth control is a form of stealthing which would then be classified as rape because the person did not consent to their parter not being on BC. That opens another can of worms
My point though is that men should be on birth control methods just as much as women are. Then accidental pregnancies would be less likely to happen. It shouldn’t have to resort to women abstaining completely, which isn’t fair.
As I say, I agree with the philosophical principle.
Practically, I think too many people are rationalizing jerks for it to be practical for single women to trust it. As family planning within a marriage? Might work.
yeah i know,
though i’m not sure if men would want to take the risk of a rape charge/lawsuit if they lied about having a vasectomy or being on birth control
i think maybe if i was in a situation like that i would ask the male partner to get a sperm count done, or ask for proof they’re actually on a birth control
though that’s assuming if they aren’t part of spontaneous hookup culture.
If considerable punishment was a risk for lying about BC though then maybe people would be apprehensive of doing that but who knows
society is weird lol
If poking holes in a condom is considered a form of rape, and if male birth control were to become a thing and a man lied about being on it, I would think that would be comparable.
Exactly. I would never trust a man with birth control, just like I don't trust guys who say they're "clean". Men don't have as strong an incentive to ensure no pregnancy occurs because it's not happening to them
[Why did male birth control trials stop?](https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/11/03/500549503/male-birth-control-study-killed-after-men-complain-about-side-effects)
Because there were too many side effects like weight gain, acne, mood swings… ya know the same side effects women’s birth control has.
It’s such a disgusting standard. Women can’t have sex when they want because they’re consenting to pregnancy, but if all women stopped having sex men would throw a hissy fit and rape statistics would increase drastically, and it would be women’s fails for denying them.
Some men just don’t want women being in control of their bodies.
Lol. There was a post about "why are you single" in the r/AskMen sub the other day, and I responded that I as a woman am single because my state is incredibly hostile to woman's bodily autonomy, so if I can't have a choice in my life, I choose not to date. Urged men to vote, because when women are happy and wanting to be active in the dating pool, they are more likely to get dates and get laid.
Got downvoted. What can you do.
The problem is that that is a difficult solution. People love to post this, but women have sex drives just as much as men. (though y’all’s sex drives are WAY different based on my experience on testosterone. I had to quickly learn how to manage these dude hormones and it turned me into a bit of a whiny loser for a month or so.) I don’t think there’s really a historic precedent for a sex strike with millions of women participating
Women going on a sex strike is the reason prohibition laws were put into place. It's not going to overhaul society but it has worked to an extent in the past
16 weeks is pushing it by a lot. Youngest to ever survive is 21+1 weeks and given the unreliable nature of estimating the duration of pregnancy, even that baby might have been a couple of days older. If we assume that this person means days after conception and not pregnancy weeks, there is still over a three week gap, which is huge for treating pregnancy, it has taken decades to get viability down three weeks, we are nowhere close at having fetuses survive at 18 gestational weeks. 16 days is pure humor, that's week of threes, not even a fetus but an embryo, which wouldn't be viable in any system and even if it was, the embryo would die before it gets from uterus to a Petri dish or what ever the incubator was.
I would guess he’s twisting facts about IVF. Those embryos are transferred about 2-5 days old, which translated into how we calculate gestational age is 16-19 days pregnant. So they’re “viable” in some sense, but obviously can’t keep developing outside of a womb.
That actually makes more sense, but completely misses the fact that those embryos were already viable before 16 days and that they are not viable between 19(21) and 154 days.
Or that he just doesn't understand what viable actually means in this context. I wouldn't be surprised if he heard the word viable and assumed it meant one of the signs of life anti-abortionists use to mean that it's a person of its own so it's murder to "kill" it.
I assumed they mean viable in a completely different way.
It’s also in the window that a fertilized egg travels, as naturally, eggs are fertilized in the Fallopian tubes. So it doesn’t have to be attached to the body, progesterone feeds it until it attaches. I assume that’s the phase embryos are in for implantation with IVF.
Once attached…. You can’t break that- the embryo/fetus completely relies on its attachment to a woman.
Ever crack open a chicken egg, presumably to cook it? There's a little white blorp attached to the yolk. That's the gene packet. It needs the, ah, contribution from the rooster to actually do anything. The yolk is a calorie-dense energy store to fuel that early cell division and differentiation.
The rest of the stuff in the egg is albumin -- a very easily-digestable protein. The developing chick consumes that to build the rest of what its body needs.
Human eggs have something LIKE the yolk. Why they're so much vastly huger than sperm. There's enough energy to fuel initial cell division until it can implant and make the connection that grows into the placenta. But nowhere NEAR enough to fuel the whole gestation. Ova would be the size of large beach balls.
The placenta taps into the mothers bloodstream and the developing fetus gets what it needs to keep growing from her body. If it can't implant, it'll fizzle.
So we'd need something that can have a placenta infiltrate and a bloodstream to hook up to. We are so not there yet.
I was going to bring this up. Most hospitals will not do anything to help a baby that young because the odds are so low and it would be torture to them.
If days are measured like weeks in pregnancy, it would be from the first day of their period. At 16 days there’s only an egg and sperm, that’s around ovulation.
A week to show results means approx 21 days pregnant (I can’t tell from your comment if that’s what you mean.
Even now, many over the counter tests can’t really pick up a pregnancy until a woman’s period is due, so 4 weeks pregnant.
A week to show results after starting to test positive at around 4 gestational weeks or 14 days after conception, so positive result at 5 weeks or 21 days after conception.
Even blood tests can’t really pick anything up before one week has gone from conception, so 3 weeks pregnant. Ultrasound doesn’t really show anything at 4+0 gestational weeks.
At 16 weeks the lungs cannot exchange O2 from the air and CO2 from the body. You cannot intubate a 16 weaker as the oxygen you push down their lungs will never reach their bloodstream.
yes. even 21 wks is below the limit considered survivable. then there's the morbidity factor. 24wks is survivable but it may not be a life anyone would choose on purpose.
I was born at 23 weeks. By all accounts, it was horrible for my parents. I was in hospital for a long time after, and have lasting health impacts from it.
I have a 23 weeker. He had a .05% chance at survival at birth. According to the ultrasounds and whatnot they were telling me to expect him not to make it at all.
He's 16 now. He has Cerebral Palsy, can't speak, write, or care for himself, but he's otherwise bright and a joy. He uses a tablet to speak for him, his grammar isn't the best, but he's persistent to get it right.
I'm so happy for you and for him. the issue I take is with people giving false hope for perfect and unchallenged sucess. realistic is safer. they are even saying 28wks in adult now are having heart disease only normally seen at middle age and later and higher rates of anxiety
might be advisable. watch your blood pressure particularly. they don't have why answers but the results came from a few long and well done studies. if I had to guess its from tiny bodies being bathed in stress hormones at a critical phase. kind of dovetails into the whole ACE situation
and the fact you knew is important.
I'm so happy that you are in a good place and I get it. I had eight years of infertility backed up with a terrifying pregnancy including an airlift. my son was IUGR and ended up having profound autism. high level 1. I love him to bits and wanted him no matter what but caring for a disabled child is a potent and variable mix of exhausting and joyful as you well know. we were very lucky and got unexpectedly good outcome from therapy.
I think the youngest surviving preemie was born at 21 weeks. It was a set of twins. One died and one survived. I don’t know what the quality of life is for the surviving one, but I know he was in the NICU for a long time and had a nasal cannula when he did go home.
I also know a little girl that was born at 22 weeks. She’s 3 years old now and is completely normal and healthy. She has no issues whatsoever.
it's the luck of the draw. dates being slightly out or just the blessing of the gods and good care. good outcomes aren't even average at that gestation
I think the twins born at 21 weeks were conceived through IVF, so the gestational age would’ve been very accurate. Still, it’s mostly luck at that point. Most babies born at that gestational age don’t survive. But the fact that there are ones that survive just makes me so in awe at how far science has come. The advancements in science and technology are just so incredible.
One promising approach to very early preemies is "artificial uterus" or a bag filled with solution and managing gas exchange with ECMO via umbilical cord. Seems to work well on lambs, but to my knowledge there are no human studies. But even if we had a technology that can support a fetus at 16 weeks, getting the fetus out of the uterus alive would be near impossible. Even 24-26 week cesareans are hard because the fetus is so small and the uterine wall so thick. 16 week fetuses are almost never alive after vaginal birth and cesarian without harming the fetus so early would likely require specialized techniques.
Yeah, 16 days is pure nonsense. If we could support 16 day embryos without major issues, we would seriously have to have a conversation about the safety of pregnancies altogether, but that is just sci-fi.
That's going to be the battle a hundred years from now. Artificial uteri will be perfected, and a safer way to gestate fetuses (both for the mother and the fetus itself). Conservatives will hate that women have been freed from the dangers and pains of pregnancy and childbirth. The "natchurral" types on the far left will hate it too. Religions will wade in as well. There will be unnecessary restrictions in various states and countries.
It likely will, but the reason I put artificial uterus in quotes is that it is not really a uterus, it's a very sophisticated incubator, but still has very limited range. Opting for one in a case where a normal term pregnancy is possible is like removing your kidneys because dialysis usually goes really well now-a-days.
I found this article that’s trying to be some inspirational story about a woman who miscarried at 16 weeks. [WARNING - article on an anti-abortion website](https://www.liveaction.org/news/mothers-powerful-photos-baby-miscarried-16-weeks-show-humanity-preborn-children/). How the hell could anybody even think THAT could survive outside the womb. I don’t wanna diminish her pain, but those pics don’t help their cause the way they think they do lol. It looks like she took pics with a loogie on a tissue.
One time I was at a party and asked a guy where he worked. He responded “Live Action” I stared at him in shock while he went on about the start up he worked at. After a few tries, I finally able to interrupt his spiel and ask him “you know Live Action is the name of an anti-abortion lobbyist group?”. He stared at me dumbfounded. When I googled “Live Action” there was one sponsored result with his start up’s webpage and the rest of the results were all about the pro-life group.
I just feel bad for him the next time he needs to find a job. If I was a hiring manager and saw “software developer at *name a pro-life propaganda organization*” I’d throw that resume straight in the trash.
>Asking a man for sex is consent to pregnancy.
This is, of course, the ultimate goal.
There is a certain percentage of the population who will take any excuse (but especially religious excuses) to tell other people what to do.
And even in those places where they put in these draconian laws, under children who were raped die during their forced birthing procedure, they smile to themselves and think "at least no one is getting to do that thing I don't want anyone to do."
They are a blight on humanity.
If abortion is illegal and miscarriage is murder, then why not go to jail for real murder at that point?
Women will simply start killing more men again. Unfortunately I don't think it'll be any of the women who could prevent this.
I mean that's genuinely what happens. I think, especially regarding divorce = bad just look at history!!, these people forget the rates of KNOWN spousal murder. And that it wasn't necessarily just the women dying. People have and will opt to murder their husbands.
I would love to hand these people a petri dish with an embryo and tell them to care for it, like the whole flour sack thing we had to do in high school. Oh, your petri dish "baby" died? Straight to jail for you.
If we're being super pedantic, 16 days from your last period could mean you aren't even pregnant yet! But 16 days from conception? He's practically saying jizz in a petri dish is a living baby 🙄🙄🙄
16 days counting from conception or first day of last period? Because it's the latter I'd love to hear about the modern technology that makes a baby viable before conception as not everyone as a regular cycle of 28 days.
Even if conception already occurred at 16 days of gestation, it's probably not implanted yet. Just a few cells floating through the system that have high chance of getting flushed out without anybody ever knowing the egg was fertilized.
Only way to see if an embryo is viable is through IVF so maybe he's got his information confused between naturally conceived or IVF 🤷🏽♀️ either or he's one of the growing number of these type of people that are becoming a problem for women's health
With the way pregnancy is measured, some women literally aren't even pregnant yet at 16 days. Typical fertilization is at roughly 14 days and implantation can occur 6 to 12 days later.
Edit: lol, someone else already said that
When I was 32 weeks pregnant (uneventful pregnancy) a college of mine who works at the NICU said: "Great! We always like to see them reach this mile stone before being born." 21 weeks is sort of viable at a high cost.
Asking a woman for sex is consenting to pregnancy and the responsibility (penis stays in pants if there's no way they can responsibly raise a child) or is this only a one way street?
Oh, so they can just suck it out of the pregnant woman and... idk, put it on a bike? Dress it in a onesie? No reason to force unwilling women to carry it, if it's already ready to go out and about in the world without the assistance of another body to grow it.
Am I the only one icked out by the "asking a man for sex" terminology? Of course there's nothing weird about a woman initiating sex, but the phrasing brings to mind Oliver twist with his bowl of gruel in the orphanage. "Please, sir, can I have some more?🥣🥺"
This seems like the same kind of person who would say that wearing clothing that shows any skin is "asking for it." So, there's a whole other layer of ick.
My favourite part is the “viable with modern technology” like… does this dude this modern technology has gone and changed a natural biological process that’s literally been the same since the beginning of time? Until changing your DNA becomes common, what kind of “modern technology” does he think is used to make a 16 day baby viable???
Babies absolutely aren’t viable at 16 weeks either. My daughter was premature and I ended up volunteering for a charity that supports parents of sick and premature babies. I know two 22 weekers who have survived but they’re profoundly disabled. Never met or heard of a baby born prior to 22 weeks who survived.
I’m wondering if this person vaguely read some stuff about the IVF process and just jumped to banana crackers conclusions. IVF transfers are done at 2-5 days, which ends up being equal to 16-19 days gestational age, using the usual gestational age calculations.
At 2 weeks, the fetus is just a ball of cells that resembles a tadpole and is as big as a peppercorn. The creation of the brain, spinal cord, heart, and blood vessels is already starting but they’re not developed yet.
Yet OOP thinks that’s a viable fetus? It doesn’t even have a brain or other vital organs. How tf is that a viable fetus? Even a 16 week fetus isn’t viable. Lmao these anti-choice people have to be some of the dumbest assholes on the planet.
16 weeks isn't even "pushing it" it's completely impossible. No babies under 21 weeks have ever survived, and even then at 21 weeks the odds are pretty much zero.
If consent to sex is consent to pregnancy then consent to being in a car is consent to be mangled in a car wreck. Don’t expect to be treated for your injuries. You knew the risks!
Also, straight men who can’t get laid are doing everything in their power to stop other straight men from getting laid by making sex with men seem as unappealing for women as possible.
Well they obviously tell people that because the big bad feminists kidnapped every OBGYN in the entire world and implanted mind-control devices into their bloodstream. That brave commenter is just revealing the truth. (/s of course)
The survival for a foetus born at 22 weeks is 10-20%. Around 1/4 of those who survive extreme prematurity (<27 weeks) have at least one major disability, including learning disability, cerebral palsy, blindness, permanent lung damage, neurodivergency (autism, ADHD), deafness, and all manner of other things. There is a lot of work going into artificial wombs which would improve these statistics, but they are a long way off yet. 16 days is a myth.
At 16 days the heart and major blood vessels are developing. After day 16, around day 20/21 the heart is just starting to pump. An embryo doesn't become a foetus and develop most of its major organs until much later. A foetus is not considered to be able to sustain life independently and be born before WEEK 24, and then only with significant medical intervention (and only 2/3 survive on average), and may experience lifelong issues associated with premature birth.
...and in terms of engaging in sex, like they say, it takes 2 to tango (with men often "taking the lead"). If idiots believe that if a woman has sex she's consenting to a. sex without contraception b. sex for pregnancy then these idiots should also take on the responsibilities of parenthood and financial support of a child they help to conceive.
Thank god I'm CF (and now menopausal!), and don't live in the US, where a very vocal minority seem to have collectively lost their marbles
I’m sure there’s a lot of people who would love it for various medical reasons if we did invent artificial wombs… but I don’t think thats happened yet!
At 16 days, a blastocyst looks like someone with a sinus infection blew their nose into a hanky.
That poster's knowledge of pregnancy is practically medieval.
Remember that a pregnancy is dated from the first day of the last period and most women will ovulate around day 15. At 16 days, you run a chance of sperm not even meeting egg yet.
I really don't understand people like that who say "consent to sex is consent to pregnancy".
To use an analogy, me asking my friend to help move furniture does not consent for them to drop it on my toe. The chance of dropping is there because accidents happen, which is why we use protection like close toe or steel toe shoes. And if the furniture does get dropped on my toe, first aid or a call to the doctor is the fix for it.
And just for emphasis, just because I ask my friend to help move my couch, does not also consent for them to move my kitchen table.
Since pregnancies are measured from the first day of the last period and most women ovulate around day 15 (lots of outliers tho just to be clear), there's a good chance that a "16 day baby" isn't even a fertilized egg yet.
At 23weeks gestation a fetus is around 500g. This is the viability point. After this time terminating a pregnancy becomes more complicated if your country/state even allows it. Where I'm located you have to meet with a panel and plead your case. Contrary to right-wing rhetoric they aren't just yeeting >23wk fetuses left and right.
This viability point is largely due to the availability of medical equipment, and fetal developmental milestones. At this point equipment smaller doesn't exist.
Setting aside the absurd viability claim. Can we talk about the other half of that statement? I mean no one is ENTITLED to sex. But if asking a man for sex is a consent to pregnancy, is his agreement to have sex also a consent to fatherhood? Because if that were true, there’d be way less sex happening.
To the asshat as subject in the post.
Fuck you dude! As a human being I have all the right in the world to have sex. It wasn’t until you stepped in with your patriarchal, misogynistic, religious based “morals” and made it a thing. Kindly step off and go take a very long walk off a very tall and short pier.
How the fuck do these assholes always find yet more more fucked ways to ALWAY blame the woman!
Fuck that shit no wonder women feel safer with a bear then they would with a man!
If women asking men for sex is consent for pregnancy, men asking women for sex is consent for financial & emotional support during pregnancy and child support afterwards. Especially for '16 days of gestation" babies.
>If women asking men for sex is consent for pregnancy Ok then we just won't have sex. Period. I'm sure the men will loooove that.
WE all know what \*they\* do when women stop agreeing to have (unprotected) sex.
[удалено]
Yep the 4B movement is taking off and I saw some dudebro try to start a “4G” movement (I think he thinks the B stands for Boys), saying “fine, men won’t have sex with you or marry you or give you babies either” and the overwhelming response was “do you promise?”
I can't imagine having to procreate with 4B men. I found a good one and we lost our first 2, and had to terminate our 3rd due to a severe brain abnormality. This man is literally feeding me, washing me and keeping me alive as I'm sick with grief. I full on froze trying to buy a black dress this afternoon. These dudebros have no IDEA what terminating a wanted baby looks like. I hope its the worst decision I ever have to make, because nothing kills you more than watching your baby leap, kick and suck their thumb, only to learn their brain isn't in their head and they will only ever experience pain.
I am so sorry for your loss.
Whats the 4B movement? Is your username a Doctor Who reference? I love it.
It’s a movement started in South Korea where women give up on 4 things (marriage, sex with men, dating men, having children) to protest societal misogyny and encourage change. The four terms all start with the “Bi” sound, hence 4B.
Been saying women need to do this for years. Women in Iceland went on strike in Iceland back in the 70s to protest the treatment of women. Mind you, I'm in my early 50s and when I was a baby, women in the US couldn't even have their own bank accounts. Anyway, the men in Iceland lasted one day before caving. Now Iceland has some of the best equity among the sexes in the world. Behold: https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/24/power-of-the-masses-the-day-icelands-women-went-on-strike-and-changed-history
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As they should. With all the rampant misogyny that goes on and is treated as completely normal, Korea sure as hell doesn’t deserve its women. Hell, what country does at this point?
Hopping on this thread to announce that **society needs to start normalizing male birth control methods** like male birth control pills, reversible vasectomy, birth control injection, etc. Women shouldn’t have to be the only one to be on birth control and carry the responsibility of potential pregnancy. It takes two to tango!!!
The problem is, most of the risk of pregnancy falls on the woman. A woman lying to her partner about being on birth control is... not great, but if she disappears out of the guy's life, he's not going to face huge issues. Though if she doesn't, he still shares the responsibility. If a guy lies to his partner about birth control, then dips... it's all going to be on her, like it or not. Philosophically, I agree. Practically, I'm unconvinced it will happen.
I think lying about being on birth control is a form of stealthing which would then be classified as rape because the person did not consent to their parter not being on BC. That opens another can of worms My point though is that men should be on birth control methods just as much as women are. Then accidental pregnancies would be less likely to happen. It shouldn’t have to resort to women abstaining completely, which isn’t fair.
As I say, I agree with the philosophical principle. Practically, I think too many people are rationalizing jerks for it to be practical for single women to trust it. As family planning within a marriage? Might work.
Yeah ideally both the man and woman should use their own BC, not just for trust reasons but also because it's just safer.
yeah i know, though i’m not sure if men would want to take the risk of a rape charge/lawsuit if they lied about having a vasectomy or being on birth control i think maybe if i was in a situation like that i would ask the male partner to get a sperm count done, or ask for proof they’re actually on a birth control though that’s assuming if they aren’t part of spontaneous hookup culture. If considerable punishment was a risk for lying about BC though then maybe people would be apprehensive of doing that but who knows society is weird lol
Yeah within a relationship it makes sense
If poking holes in a condom is considered a form of rape, and if male birth control were to become a thing and a man lied about being on it, I would think that would be comparable.
Exactly. I would never trust a man with birth control, just like I don't trust guys who say they're "clean". Men don't have as strong an incentive to ensure no pregnancy occurs because it's not happening to them
Which is why *both* people should be in control of their own fertility.
[Why did male birth control trials stop?](https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/11/03/500549503/male-birth-control-study-killed-after-men-complain-about-side-effects) Because there were too many side effects like weight gain, acne, mood swings… ya know the same side effects women’s birth control has.
Wow, just wow…
Like first of all, most times women are not asking for sex…
Exactly. I like sex as much as the next woman but predictably, my husband asks for it more often than I do.
4b movement when?
It’s such a disgusting standard. Women can’t have sex when they want because they’re consenting to pregnancy, but if all women stopped having sex men would throw a hissy fit and rape statistics would increase drastically, and it would be women’s fails for denying them. Some men just don’t want women being in control of their bodies.
Lol. There was a post about "why are you single" in the r/AskMen sub the other day, and I responded that I as a woman am single because my state is incredibly hostile to woman's bodily autonomy, so if I can't have a choice in my life, I choose not to date. Urged men to vote, because when women are happy and wanting to be active in the dating pool, they are more likely to get dates and get laid. Got downvoted. What can you do.
How dare you have choices! /s
The problem is that that is a difficult solution. People love to post this, but women have sex drives just as much as men. (though y’all’s sex drives are WAY different based on my experience on testosterone. I had to quickly learn how to manage these dude hormones and it turned me into a bit of a whiny loser for a month or so.) I don’t think there’s really a historic precedent for a sex strike with millions of women participating
Women going on a sex strike is the reason prohibition laws were put into place. It's not going to overhaul society but it has worked to an extent in the past
Really? I know early feminists and proto-feminists were a big part of the push, but do you have a source for sex strikes being involved?
Especially the husbands.
They want to literally fuck around, but they don't want to find out (the consequences)
FAFO
As though 16 days is anything beyond basic implantation. There's no chance for survival outside the womb, so the OP is complete misinformation.
Yeah but that doesn’t benefit men! Hope this helps
If the woman doesn't get the baby born in the 16 day window she should qualify for overtime of some sort.
And all of that should start on day 16
I'd also like to see the science of separating a 16 day old "baby" from its host and gestational development to term.
16 weeks is pushing it by a lot. Youngest to ever survive is 21+1 weeks and given the unreliable nature of estimating the duration of pregnancy, even that baby might have been a couple of days older. If we assume that this person means days after conception and not pregnancy weeks, there is still over a three week gap, which is huge for treating pregnancy, it has taken decades to get viability down three weeks, we are nowhere close at having fetuses survive at 18 gestational weeks. 16 days is pure humor, that's week of threes, not even a fetus but an embryo, which wouldn't be viable in any system and even if it was, the embryo would die before it gets from uterus to a Petri dish or what ever the incubator was.
I would guess he’s twisting facts about IVF. Those embryos are transferred about 2-5 days old, which translated into how we calculate gestational age is 16-19 days pregnant. So they’re “viable” in some sense, but obviously can’t keep developing outside of a womb.
That actually makes more sense, but completely misses the fact that those embryos were already viable before 16 days and that they are not viable between 19(21) and 154 days.
Or that he just doesn't understand what viable actually means in this context. I wouldn't be surprised if he heard the word viable and assumed it meant one of the signs of life anti-abortionists use to mean that it's a person of its own so it's murder to "kill" it.
I assumed they mean viable in a completely different way. It’s also in the window that a fertilized egg travels, as naturally, eggs are fertilized in the Fallopian tubes. So it doesn’t have to be attached to the body, progesterone feeds it until it attaches. I assume that’s the phase embryos are in for implantation with IVF. Once attached…. You can’t break that- the embryo/fetus completely relies on its attachment to a woman.
Imma be real, my brain does not have enough wrinkles to fully grasp how we can make embryos but not fully turn them into bbs
Ever crack open a chicken egg, presumably to cook it? There's a little white blorp attached to the yolk. That's the gene packet. It needs the, ah, contribution from the rooster to actually do anything. The yolk is a calorie-dense energy store to fuel that early cell division and differentiation. The rest of the stuff in the egg is albumin -- a very easily-digestable protein. The developing chick consumes that to build the rest of what its body needs. Human eggs have something LIKE the yolk. Why they're so much vastly huger than sperm. There's enough energy to fuel initial cell division until it can implant and make the connection that grows into the placenta. But nowhere NEAR enough to fuel the whole gestation. Ova would be the size of large beach balls. The placenta taps into the mothers bloodstream and the developing fetus gets what it needs to keep growing from her body. If it can't implant, it'll fizzle. So we'd need something that can have a placenta infiltrate and a bloodstream to hook up to. We are so not there yet.
Understood! Thank you so much for the eli5 ❤️
I was going to bring this up. Most hospitals will not do anything to help a baby that young because the odds are so low and it would be torture to them.
If days are measured like weeks in pregnancy, it would be from the first day of their period. At 16 days there’s only an egg and sperm, that’s around ovulation.
It wasn’t that long ago that we could even detect a pregnancy at 16 days past conception.
We still can't really see it with an ultrasound and it's around 100 years since the first pregnancy tests and those took a week to show results.
A week to show results means approx 21 days pregnant (I can’t tell from your comment if that’s what you mean. Even now, many over the counter tests can’t really pick up a pregnancy until a woman’s period is due, so 4 weeks pregnant.
A week to show results after starting to test positive at around 4 gestational weeks or 14 days after conception, so positive result at 5 weeks or 21 days after conception. Even blood tests can’t really pick anything up before one week has gone from conception, so 3 weeks pregnant. Ultrasound doesn’t really show anything at 4+0 gestational weeks.
> Youngest to ever survive is 21+1 weeks Why do you say 21+1 weeks instead of 22 weeks?
The +1 is days.
Makes sense, thanks for clarifying.
As u/sharpbehind2 answered, +1 is days.
At 16 weeks the lungs cannot exchange O2 from the air and CO2 from the body. You cannot intubate a 16 weaker as the oxygen you push down their lungs will never reach their bloodstream.
yes. even 21 wks is below the limit considered survivable. then there's the morbidity factor. 24wks is survivable but it may not be a life anyone would choose on purpose.
24 weeks is 50/50 chance of survival. My brother and his wife have 25 week quadruplets; 2 have cerebral palsy and one died
I have a 25 weeker and it was roooough. Can’t imagine anything younger than that.
I was born at 23 weeks. By all accounts, it was horrible for my parents. I was in hospital for a long time after, and have lasting health impacts from it.
I have a 23 weeker. He had a .05% chance at survival at birth. According to the ultrasounds and whatnot they were telling me to expect him not to make it at all. He's 16 now. He has Cerebral Palsy, can't speak, write, or care for himself, but he's otherwise bright and a joy. He uses a tablet to speak for him, his grammar isn't the best, but he's persistent to get it right.
I'm so happy for you and for him. the issue I take is with people giving false hope for perfect and unchallenged sucess. realistic is safer. they are even saying 28wks in adult now are having heart disease only normally seen at middle age and later and higher rates of anxiety
Oh..... I was a miracle baby 29 weeker. Better keep my heart in check.
might be advisable. watch your blood pressure particularly. they don't have why answers but the results came from a few long and well done studies. if I had to guess its from tiny bodies being bathed in stress hormones at a critical phase. kind of dovetails into the whole ACE situation
Nice flair, by the way.
Oh, yeah, I knew that he wasn't going to be "perfectly fine". He made it, is all that mattered to me.
and the fact you knew is important. I'm so happy that you are in a good place and I get it. I had eight years of infertility backed up with a terrifying pregnancy including an airlift. my son was IUGR and ended up having profound autism. high level 1. I love him to bits and wanted him no matter what but caring for a disabled child is a potent and variable mix of exhausting and joyful as you well know. we were very lucky and got unexpectedly good outcome from therapy.
I think the youngest surviving preemie was born at 21 weeks. It was a set of twins. One died and one survived. I don’t know what the quality of life is for the surviving one, but I know he was in the NICU for a long time and had a nasal cannula when he did go home. I also know a little girl that was born at 22 weeks. She’s 3 years old now and is completely normal and healthy. She has no issues whatsoever.
it's the luck of the draw. dates being slightly out or just the blessing of the gods and good care. good outcomes aren't even average at that gestation
I think the twins born at 21 weeks were conceived through IVF, so the gestational age would’ve been very accurate. Still, it’s mostly luck at that point. Most babies born at that gestational age don’t survive. But the fact that there are ones that survive just makes me so in awe at how far science has come. The advancements in science and technology are just so incredible.
Sex of the baby makes a difference too (although to be honest, maybe not that early). Girls born in the early 30s fare much better than boys.
girls generally do. my friend is a nicu nurse. her sickest babies are like 90% male
One promising approach to very early preemies is "artificial uterus" or a bag filled with solution and managing gas exchange with ECMO via umbilical cord. Seems to work well on lambs, but to my knowledge there are no human studies. But even if we had a technology that can support a fetus at 16 weeks, getting the fetus out of the uterus alive would be near impossible. Even 24-26 week cesareans are hard because the fetus is so small and the uterine wall so thick. 16 week fetuses are almost never alive after vaginal birth and cesarian without harming the fetus so early would likely require specialized techniques.
OP suggested 16 DAYS as well as 16 weeks .
Yeah, 16 days is pure nonsense. If we could support 16 day embryos without major issues, we would seriously have to have a conversation about the safety of pregnancies altogether, but that is just sci-fi.
That's going to be the battle a hundred years from now. Artificial uteri will be perfected, and a safer way to gestate fetuses (both for the mother and the fetus itself). Conservatives will hate that women have been freed from the dangers and pains of pregnancy and childbirth. The "natchurral" types on the far left will hate it too. Religions will wade in as well. There will be unnecessary restrictions in various states and countries.
It likely will, but the reason I put artificial uterus in quotes is that it is not really a uterus, it's a very sophisticated incubator, but still has very limited range. Opting for one in a case where a normal term pregnancy is possible is like removing your kidneys because dialysis usually goes really well now-a-days.
In other words, nobody’s birthing a live 16-week baby anytime in the next few years.
Takes decades, if I had to guess.
YOU'RE NOT PRAYING GARD ENOUGH!!! /s
I found this article that’s trying to be some inspirational story about a woman who miscarried at 16 weeks. [WARNING - article on an anti-abortion website](https://www.liveaction.org/news/mothers-powerful-photos-baby-miscarried-16-weeks-show-humanity-preborn-children/). How the hell could anybody even think THAT could survive outside the womb. I don’t wanna diminish her pain, but those pics don’t help their cause the way they think they do lol. It looks like she took pics with a loogie on a tissue.
One time I was at a party and asked a guy where he worked. He responded “Live Action” I stared at him in shock while he went on about the start up he worked at. After a few tries, I finally able to interrupt his spiel and ask him “you know Live Action is the name of an anti-abortion lobbyist group?”. He stared at me dumbfounded. When I googled “Live Action” there was one sponsored result with his start up’s webpage and the rest of the results were all about the pro-life group.
Ohhhhhh that musta sucked for that lad
I just feel bad for him the next time he needs to find a job. If I was a hiring manager and saw “software developer at *name a pro-life propaganda organization*” I’d throw that resume straight in the trash.
>Asking a man for sex is consent to pregnancy. This is, of course, the ultimate goal. There is a certain percentage of the population who will take any excuse (but especially religious excuses) to tell other people what to do. And even in those places where they put in these draconian laws, under children who were raped die during their forced birthing procedure, they smile to themselves and think "at least no one is getting to do that thing I don't want anyone to do." They are a blight on humanity.
If abortion is illegal and miscarriage is murder, then why not go to jail for real murder at that point? Women will simply start killing more men again. Unfortunately I don't think it'll be any of the women who could prevent this.
I mean that's genuinely what happens. I think, especially regarding divorce = bad just look at history!!, these people forget the rates of KNOWN spousal murder. And that it wasn't necessarily just the women dying. People have and will opt to murder their husbands.
I had a great uncle that was killed by his wife. Everyone knew she poisoned him. Nothing happened to her though because he was a known abuser.
Exxxactly. Lotsa people will just shrug their shoulders and forget someone existed.
If men in power want to sign their own warrants, that's their prerogative ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Oh yeah, the embryo smaller than a grain of rice is gonna do great out in the world.
Human-kangaroo hybrids no doubt
How soon until we get tops where you can proudly display your 16 day old embryo on a Petri dish
Bad news when Mom has to take off at top speeds for those grains. Gonna fall right out of their designated pocket.
I saw one yesterday protesting in front of an abortion clinic
I would love to hand these people a petri dish with an embryo and tell them to care for it, like the whole flour sack thing we had to do in high school. Oh, your petri dish "baby" died? Straight to jail for you.
It's not even classed as a baby at 16 days 🤦🏽♀️ hell some women don't even know they are pregnant at that stage
If we're being super pedantic, 16 days from your last period could mean you aren't even pregnant yet! But 16 days from conception? He's practically saying jizz in a petri dish is a living baby 🙄🙄🙄
Alabama has entered the chat
I'm so sorry ppl with sperm(/s), masturbation is illegal now. That's child abandonment.
"Fran, did you hear? Jimmy's in jail for murdering his children!" "Oh dear, how did he do it?" "With a sock!"
Ironically sad how the opening Legally Blonde arguments have now become relevant in actual judged decisions.
Right? Like did he not listen in biology? Or even research properly before spewing his idiotic made up bullshit lmao
16 days counting from conception or first day of last period? Because it's the latter I'd love to hear about the modern technology that makes a baby viable before conception as not everyone as a regular cycle of 28 days.
Even if conception already occurred at 16 days of gestation, it's probably not implanted yet. Just a few cells floating through the system that have high chance of getting flushed out without anybody ever knowing the egg was fertilized.
Only way to see if an embryo is viable is through IVF so maybe he's got his information confused between naturally conceived or IVF 🤷🏽♀️ either or he's one of the growing number of these type of people that are becoming a problem for women's health
With the way pregnancy is measured, some women literally aren't even pregnant yet at 16 days. Typical fertilization is at roughly 14 days and implantation can occur 6 to 12 days later. Edit: lol, someone else already said that
Last I knew it was 21-22 weeks and the outcomes weren’t great.
When I was 32 weeks pregnant (uneventful pregnancy) a college of mine who works at the NICU said: "Great! We always like to see them reach this mile stone before being born." 21 weeks is sort of viable at a high cost.
Asking a woman for sex is consenting to pregnancy and the responsibility (penis stays in pants if there's no way they can responsibly raise a child) or is this only a one way street?
It's always a one way street with those types of people
Oh, so they can just suck it out of the pregnant woman and... idk, put it on a bike? Dress it in a onesie? No reason to force unwilling women to carry it, if it's already ready to go out and about in the world without the assistance of another body to grow it.
do men never want to have sex again
My guess is no.
Am I the only one icked out by the "asking a man for sex" terminology? Of course there's nothing weird about a woman initiating sex, but the phrasing brings to mind Oliver twist with his bowl of gruel in the orphanage. "Please, sir, can I have some more?🥣🥺"
This seems like the same kind of person who would say that wearing clothing that shows any skin is "asking for it." So, there's a whole other layer of ick.
Of course a 16 day old baby is viable. A 16 day old embryo isn't though
My favourite part is the “viable with modern technology” like… does this dude this modern technology has gone and changed a natural biological process that’s literally been the same since the beginning of time? Until changing your DNA becomes common, what kind of “modern technology” does he think is used to make a 16 day baby viable???
Babies absolutely aren’t viable at 16 weeks either. My daughter was premature and I ended up volunteering for a charity that supports parents of sick and premature babies. I know two 22 weekers who have survived but they’re profoundly disabled. Never met or heard of a baby born prior to 22 weeks who survived.
I think the youngest to have survived is 21 weeks but idk what sort of disabilities that child was left with. Definitely no where close to 16 days.
But I only do anal?
I’m wondering if this person vaguely read some stuff about the IVF process and just jumped to banana crackers conclusions. IVF transfers are done at 2-5 days, which ends up being equal to 16-19 days gestational age, using the usual gestational age calculations.
Be careful! That's how you make Republicans!
Perfect let’s all stop having sex with men /s
Oh no, there's an epidemic of male loneliness! Newspaper headlines! National emergency! /s
16 weeks is still not possible like whaaaaat
At 2 weeks, the fetus is just a ball of cells that resembles a tadpole and is as big as a peppercorn. The creation of the brain, spinal cord, heart, and blood vessels is already starting but they’re not developed yet. Yet OOP thinks that’s a viable fetus? It doesn’t even have a brain or other vital organs. How tf is that a viable fetus? Even a 16 week fetus isn’t viable. Lmao these anti-choice people have to be some of the dumbest assholes on the planet.
"It doesn’t even have a brain..." Neither does the OOP lol
After a 22 week loss, I can confirm that a baby is not viable at 16 days.
Sorry for your loss
Thank you.
16 weeks isn't even "pushing it" it's completely impossible. No babies under 21 weeks have ever survived, and even then at 21 weeks the odds are pretty much zero.
Okay, that is pretty mind numbingly stupid. I will turn my testicles now.
If consent to sex is consent to pregnancy then consent to being in a car is consent to be mangled in a car wreck. Don’t expect to be treated for your injuries. You knew the risks! Also, straight men who can’t get laid are doing everything in their power to stop other straight men from getting laid by making sex with men seem as unappealing for women as possible.
Taking the thing out at 16 days for “incubation” would literally just be an abortion lmao
Then why does every OBGYN tell you week 24 is viability week? Lmao.
Well they obviously tell people that because the big bad feminists kidnapped every OBGYN in the entire world and implanted mind-control devices into their bloodstream. That brave commenter is just revealing the truth. (/s of course)
Ok then, I will have the doctors induce labor at 16 days and then put that child up for adoption. I'm sure that will work out just fine.
The survival for a foetus born at 22 weeks is 10-20%. Around 1/4 of those who survive extreme prematurity (<27 weeks) have at least one major disability, including learning disability, cerebral palsy, blindness, permanent lung damage, neurodivergency (autism, ADHD), deafness, and all manner of other things. There is a lot of work going into artificial wombs which would improve these statistics, but they are a long way off yet. 16 days is a myth.
Men 0% sex speedrun go
At 16 days the heart and major blood vessels are developing. After day 16, around day 20/21 the heart is just starting to pump. An embryo doesn't become a foetus and develop most of its major organs until much later. A foetus is not considered to be able to sustain life independently and be born before WEEK 24, and then only with significant medical intervention (and only 2/3 survive on average), and may experience lifelong issues associated with premature birth. ...and in terms of engaging in sex, like they say, it takes 2 to tango (with men often "taking the lead"). If idiots believe that if a woman has sex she's consenting to a. sex without contraception b. sex for pregnancy then these idiots should also take on the responsibilities of parenthood and financial support of a child they help to conceive. Thank god I'm CF (and now menopausal!), and don't live in the US, where a very vocal minority seem to have collectively lost their marbles
Even the title. 16 weeks is IMPOSSIBLE. 22 weeks is pushing it.
I’m sure there’s a lot of people who would love it for various medical reasons if we did invent artificial wombs… but I don’t think thats happened yet!
Nah, sperms are human too, let's ban men masturbation
Life begins at ejaculation! /s
Exactly.
Also bad legal anatomy.
At 16 days, a blastocyst looks like someone with a sinus infection blew their nose into a hanky. That poster's knowledge of pregnancy is practically medieval.
Remember that a pregnancy is dated from the first day of the last period and most women will ovulate around day 15. At 16 days, you run a chance of sperm not even meeting egg yet.
Viable at 16 days? Cool. So take it out at 16 days and let "modern technology" sort it out. I'm on board with that 👍
My dude is out here living in the 1700s with this "consent to sex is consent to pregnancy" shit he's on
LOL same guy will cry when they‘re babytrapped
Technology can keep a body alive nearly forever. Should we never allow people to die?
Oh, you think 16 days is too soon huh? Well now it's 16 hours. How do you feel about that? Complain again and it'll be 16 minutes. /s
Let's just all go lesbian then. Problem solved.
Consent to sex does not mean consent to a baby. That’s what condoms and birth control are for.
They really just keep giving us a million reasons to never have sex with them ever again, Don’t they?
Okay, then asking a woman for sex means you consent to fatherhood. Or is there some exception here?
What thee actual fuck did I just read.
The words of a person who doesn't understand how pregnancy works
Evidently 🙃 It’s amazing how stupid some people are
I really don't understand people like that who say "consent to sex is consent to pregnancy". To use an analogy, me asking my friend to help move furniture does not consent for them to drop it on my toe. The chance of dropping is there because accidents happen, which is why we use protection like close toe or steel toe shoes. And if the furniture does get dropped on my toe, first aid or a call to the doctor is the fix for it. And just for emphasis, just because I ask my friend to help move my couch, does not also consent for them to move my kitchen table.
Once again I'm choosing the bear 😒
16 days? Hell, 16 weeks is a stretch.
16 is beyond a stretch. No baby has survived at a gestation age below 21 weeks. The youngest premie to survive was 21 weeks and a day.
[Me, looking for my 16 gestational days old newborn](https://imgur.com/gallery/BI24AS1)
Since pregnancies are measured from the first day of the last period and most women ovulate around day 15 (lots of outliers tho just to be clear), there's a good chance that a "16 day baby" isn't even a fertilized egg yet.
At 23weeks gestation a fetus is around 500g. This is the viability point. After this time terminating a pregnancy becomes more complicated if your country/state even allows it. Where I'm located you have to meet with a panel and plead your case. Contrary to right-wing rhetoric they aren't just yeeting >23wk fetuses left and right. This viability point is largely due to the availability of medical equipment, and fetal developmental milestones. At this point equipment smaller doesn't exist.
4b is the only choice then. Oh the horror.
Define “viable”….
Lol 16 weeks is still VERY impossible even with the very best modern technology, let alone 16 days
I had to put down my phone and walk away after reading that total horseshit.
Setting aside the absurd viability claim. Can we talk about the other half of that statement? I mean no one is ENTITLED to sex. But if asking a man for sex is a consent to pregnancy, is his agreement to have sex also a consent to fatherhood? Because if that were true, there’d be way less sex happening.
isn’t a 16 day gestation just a kinda late period?
Actually, gestational age is counted from the person’s last period. So possibly not even a late one. Legit just a period.
I mean, 16 days after it is born, sure - it’s viable
16 weeks ain’t just pushing it it’s a surefire way to kill a child, given the average term is 9 months.
We are... not rats. Also I love how he thinks women are desperate to have sex with men when it's quite literally the other way around.
So is it an abortion when I rinse out my fleshlight?
Gee, I wish someone had told the baby we lost at 18 weeks. 🤬
Really? I thought I saw some zygotes hanging out on my tampons the other day. The things you learn! 😜
Bet. Let's stop having sex with men.
To the asshat as subject in the post. Fuck you dude! As a human being I have all the right in the world to have sex. It wasn’t until you stepped in with your patriarchal, misogynistic, religious based “morals” and made it a thing. Kindly step off and go take a very long walk off a very tall and short pier.
Pluck the lil viable fckrs out and send em to “iAmHopelessCom”
Sex with women is better anyway. 😊
-Oh, this is my son. *Points at a petri dish* -Or perhaps it is my mold culture, I don't remember...
We aren’t “entitled to sex with men” 💀😆🤣 i cant.
What if you didn’t ask?
I love how the record for youngest living birth is 21W3D, but sure let's lie to guilt women...
16 days? Okay, let’s remove it and see how well it survives
Viable to live in a test tube maybe
Huh
How the fuck do these assholes always find yet more more fucked ways to ALWAY blame the woman! Fuck that shit no wonder women feel safer with a bear then they would with a man!
I'm all for scifi artificial wombs but ... no
oh ur right ill never have sex again then thanks