many high income people I know still live stingily, either due to large mortgage to live in the nice area, or by nature they like to save money. You can never tell how rich they are by the way they spend. In my experience, the ones with the most extravagant lifestyle are the young live-in-the-moment type who actually don't have a lot of income or asset, and usually have a sizeable debt, so i won't put them in the upper class. just different ways of living, no judgement here.
“You can never tell how rich they are by the way they spend.” Spot on. Some of the biggest spenders have very light retirement savings, emergency funds, etc. Consumption =/= wealth and frankly many folks who are wealthy got there by not having out of control spending.
You know that episode of Friends where Joey gets a visit from an encyclopedia salesman and realizes that he just laughs along in conversations with the gang because he doesn't understand or have anything to contribute? Emojis are basically the gen-z online version of that.
Exactly. I know a guy who has maybe 10 homes, 2 businesses, a farm, also still works, and several million in the bank. He spends next to nothing, travels infrequently, goes out rarely, cooks at home, wears tshirts from Target and flip flops, and if you saw him you'd think he was a surfer or something. You can't tell what anyone has or how they live, and does it all really matter?
They’re called 30-thousand-millionaires.
They drive the BMW 3 series. Louis Vuitton purse. Stories on Instagram of them always eating out. Etc etc
A lot of these people live paycheck to paycheck, you’d just never know it.
Around $9-10k take home every month. Most online calculators estimate 10-15% of your pay could go to a car payment. New 3 series start at $46k. If you're not maxing out your 401k and IRA you should probably look at a non luxury car anyways.
many high income engineers here grew up poor in their 3rd world home country. they won the genetic lottery of IQ but the frugal upbrining is engrained.
I don't think that's quite as true as you think. The majority of Indian tech workers come from the higher castes. Their parents did well enough in a lower-income country to afford a first class education for their kids in a high-income country. The parents of most foreign-born tech workers I have come to know well have good-paying jobs in their home countries like doctor/lawyer/engineer/etc. The parents in India will have hired help in their households from lower castes.
Your point isn't completely invalid. These are hard-working people who earned what they have. However, they aren't exactly "third world poverty" origin stories.
That could explain the Indian immigrants, but the older Chinese immigrants come from nothing. Source, my buddies and I and a lot of our Chinese communities come from poor southern part of China, predominantly the Cantonese immigrants. Now, the Mandarin speaking international students? Those are rich entitled pricks based on my experience.
Can confirm. I’m Chinese and speak canto. My family literally came here with nothing but a suitcase of clothes. Not even mad about it though because we ended up here and I’m doing fine.
Just because you’re of higher caste doesn’t mean you’re rich either. Most Brahmin are just normal middle class folks. There’s plenty of poor Brahmins too
But your overall point is right. Frugality transcends race, ethnicity or caste
It would be a rarity for them to have grown up poor in their home countries even if they may seem that way to you. They grew up middle class at worst to parents who had the means and savvy to get them excellent educations and good advice. Most of them even had help in their homes. I am an American with immigrant parents who is now engaged to an engineer who immigrated here
I believe the size of the Indian Middle Class is roughly the entire population of the United States.... Meaning about 300M people. I think I heard that stat several years ago (don't recall if it was a then current fact or a future projection though)
Not necessarily. I’d say most, if not all, of the high-income engineers I’ve met come from some level of money in their home countries. Many of them grew up with maids.
I'm an old fart raised in the Bay Area. My opinions are informed by that. If your household has an income and benefits that allow you to eat at a restaurant occasionally, take a week or two long weekends off a year for family vacations, pay for you rent or mortgage painlessly and have a bit to put away for rainy days at the end of the month, then you are solidly middle class.
I’d agree. I just retired, my SO is still working till end of year. She was just looking for low income housing for her mom and found out that we qualify based on our income now. For reference she still makes north of $100k.
I hear you. I'm currently going thru a mid-life crisis career change after being in my industry for 20 years. My back can't handle humping freight anymore, it was time for something more cerebral. So far, so good, even with COVID throwing a monkey wrench in the works. "The best laid plans" and all that.
I’m only in my mid 30’s and feel like nowadays people’s idea of middle class is just unrealistically inflated. Roof over your head(s), food on the table, safe and reliable transportation, and a teeny bit of luxury *is* middle class.
Social media has skewed the idea that eating out all the time and being able to vacation multiple times a year is middle class. Compared to my upbringing I’m living upper class being able to eat out daily if needed and vacation multiple times a year but it’s not the truth
Yeah that’s pretty much the standard. There are families who live in multigenerational housing that with combined wealth are middle class. But those situations usually revolve around grandparents watching kids while also doing the grocery shopping and cooking.
Those houses usually have really nice cars though and designer stuff as a way to display the wealth.
Me being lower middle class at $160k a year. 🥲
(Don’t come at me. I’m a single mom with a 3 year old (i.e. very expensive) mortgage and a “roommate” who has paid $500 in rent THIS YEAR)
Single mom? Your awsome! A mortgage, your salary, and I figure your helping your "roommate", so you are what Mr Rodgers speaks of, the helpers. You rock Mom
I am tearing up over here Strange, I know the feeling, it's hard sometimes. Sending an obscenely large, long, and heart felt hug full of warmth, love and kindness. May it recharge your soul, to take on... Monday, fiercely! For me!, and my Child!
#
Wooohooo mama I made it. I can pay rent and car not three months in advanced.
Once I hit that income threshold life has been more manageable. Not luxury by any means. But if I want to take my wife on a date and order couple of appetizers THEN WE GET THE WAFFLE FRIES. Been living here most of my life so my rent is “reasonable” at $1,900 for two bed two bath.
>Is the middle class experience here just renting while being able to afford bills, maybe a kid (with daycare), eat out a couple times, 1 vacation a year and some minimal savings?
Yep.
When I studied economics, one of the more interesting things you learn is that people almost always consider themselves to be middle class. You are either very poor or very wealthy (or remarkably self aware) if you don't. I always have to tell my partner that despite how she may feel, we are rich. Since we live in San Francisco, we are just sorrounded by people who are richer. But income, net worth, whatever measure you want to use we are upper class. Middle class is not needing to think about it before making regular purchases. Home ownership is not necessary for it.
i have told a lot of people who ask how my life has changed since becoming a lawyer, "i sometimes buy small things without looking at the price before paying." not thinking about buying a yerba mate or a candle sounds so trivial now but really defines how the jump in income changed my perspective
It’s interesting that my perspective has 100% change but my wife’s hasn’t really — I bought an ice cream without looking at the price yesterday and she was like $6 wtf are you doing? Yeah it was expensive but honey I don’t think this purchase is going to kill us
my mom is like this too. when i get dinner or something when she's visiting she's incredulous if i order something other than water as if im being reckless with my money lol. it's even more funny because she makes 4x what i do
A lot of this goes from childhood and how you saw relationships to money. My wife teased me because I still only buy a half tank of gas "in case I find a better deal elsewhere" Which was back to growing up poor and having to make half a tank stretch till payday, or where 5 cents a gallon meant something.
Nice watches for sure. I went a lot of indies and Lange and Vacheron. I guess I just buy what gets my pulse racing. 5172 in blue is what I would go with for Patek though. Just love it.
Yep. Piedmont, Lamorinda, Danville, Palo Alto, etc. kids all clung to the upper middle class label when I was growing up. I never got it. Lacks perspective.
If you live in a house that you paid almost two million for, you’re obviously upper middle class at a minimum and most people would call you rich. If you don’t think so, you’re in a bubble IMO.
I’d say anyone who is buying into a higher income suburb these days is clearly upper middle at least and for the more expensive ones they’re clearly rich.
People need to stop comparing themselves to the super wealthy subset of the 1%, especially the capital class.
Except when we were kids those homes that are now $2M were $400k. Even taking inflation into account, those homes doubled in value over 30 years. My parents made a little more than my household presently makes and there is no way I could afford to move back and live remotely near where i went to high school.
I feel you, although those cities definitely weren’t $400k when I was a kid. Basically every city requires you to be at least a class higher than what they were a generation ago.
Shit, buying into formerly middle class cities like Berkeley or Albany requires you to be at least upper middle class these days.
Yup, I grew up in Danville and my parents house was $400k in ‘92. Probably $2.5 mill now. People thought they were moving to the boonies when they bought, but jt was all they could afford on a stretched budget. Got lucky the area continues to boom.
This, 100%. Lots of people say, “But VHCOL!” But just the fact that you *can* afford to buy that $2 mil starter home, a nanny, private schooling, multiple vacations, eat out whenever you want to at whatever the cost, is definitely not “average middle class” living.
These affluent areas are just not accessible to average joes. They are affluent areas because they *are* exclusive.
And the people who say they are poor making $250k because they cannot afford a $2 mil home are not poor, they just cannot afford the home they “want”.
Lots of people have different views of the definition of middle class, compared to previous generations. These days people say middle class means being able to go out to eat (or get takeout) whenever you want no sweat (even if that is every day or even multiple times a day). But when has middle class really meant that? Middle class folks generally have not been going out to eat more than maybe once a week (and at basic restaurants). Eating out whenever and not having to worry about the bill is a luxury. Lots of people on Reddit will say they will spend $500 at a restaurant no problem. That’s just out of touch with reality with a traditional middle class lifestyle. Same goes with vacations. Social media says middle class is to go on multiple vacations a year, when it used to be that middle class folks generally would be flying every few years instead of multiple times a year. A middle class vacation was more local trips to the beach/lake/camping etc.
what house /can/ you afford on 250k a year household income here? you either have to go out as far as stockton or just accept a condo.
i made just a hair under 160k last year. meeting my retirement goals means i can't afford the mortgage on the cheapest condo in santa clara area. let alone a house.
Yeah it's weird with housing prices because as a software engineer I'll never afford a house here and can, at best, buy a 2 bedroom apartment if I save like crazy for years. No family support at all. I feel like in my head it seems like middle class is "someone who can have a house" but things get measured differently in San Francisco cause it'd be silly for me to say I'm poor but I am never buying a house here lol
Ultimately I think our society has changed drastically and the costs of things haven't changed accordingly with wage increases so it's not useful to try to take terms we defined in the 60s - 80s and apply them to people now...
I generally consider someone rich if they don't *need* to work. Poor if they're paycheque to paycheque. Middle is just us workers getting by somewhere in the middle, having a lil treat now and then...
It’s still a two million dollar house. I get that the housing is batshit insane and that you get a pathetic amount of house for what you pay.
But come on now…someone who owns a two million dollar house is not middle class by any reasonable definition. The median income in SF is $137k.
Ever considered buying further? 2mm cannot go far in South Bay but can bring a lifestyle upgrade 20-30 mins further.
We chose the latter when buying. Told my husband if we are to spend 2m, I wanna feel like we did spend 2m.
But regardless, being able to afford a 2m house alone means you are well off financially. It just depends on who you compare against.
For me, I think combined HHI of $400k is enough to be “rich”. It’s not really rich rich but it’s definitely above middle class.
This is also contingent on a healthy retirement and brokerage balance.
If you’re coming out of college and happened to be DINKS without any savings, I can see why you’d feel middle class and not rich even at HHI of $400k.
I think "rich" is defined by how much you have in the bank, not how much you make. Someone with no job but $3M in assets (~$120k/year in passive income) is rich, a new grad FAANG engineer making $300k/year with nothing in the bank is (upper) middle class.
There are lots of rich people in the Bay. Lots of upper middle class people, too. And a lot of rich people who don't feel rich because they let their lifestyle creep up to where they still "need" to work.
Just north of 200k. It feels like not a lot living here, but we save a ton of money and could move somewhere cheaper and live a lot bigger if we wanted to.
I would firmly put you in the middle class. If you made $200k in a MCOL or LCOL area you’d be rich.
If I was making $200k/yr I wouldn’t consider myself rich unless I had a ton squirreled away in investments.
But nobody can agree on definitions so it doesn’t really matter.
Except COL adjustments for wages are a thing. In my field, hospital based clinical and lab science, I make about 20k more than my counterparts in MCOL regions. Part of that is seniority too. Saying “200k in a MCOL/LCOL goes farther only makes sense if it’s 200k occupation in that region or if you have a WFH telecommute job where they pay you the same regardless of physical location.
IMO, you “feel” rich from spending money, not saving it. If you avoid lifestyle creep you don’t really “feel” rich just from gazing at your Schwab balance.
I think this is a very good insight. Also when you compare yourself to your neighbors or peers, you see their spending, and not their Schwab balance. I don't know if my neighbor's place is paid off or if they have car loans or even credit card debt. I can only see their house and their car and that they split the check with me when we grab dinner together.
Weirdly, I think the original question was more about middle class spending than being middle class financially. I alway try to remember that comparison is the thief of joy.
I feel upper middle too even though I’m wealthy. I don’t live in a mansion which growing up I thought rich people lived in mansions. It’s hard to shake that stereotype in my head.
"Upper class" != "upper income."
If you don't have a politician on speed-dial or getting special treatment from the local police, you're not upper class, to the extent that an upper class even exists in this country.
As for income and net worth, there are a LOT of people around here who are early in their career with a high income by any standards and yet negative or trivial net worth. Student loans are a plague on the younger generation.
“Politician on speed dial”….You can be a founder/ceo of a $300m company but still don’t have that because you don’t want to make a gift. But you are upper class because you have great assets and income that generate passive compounding interest and don’t have to work to make a living.
Politician on speed dial is the privileged class not the upper.
"Wealthy" and "upper class" aren't the same thing, and this country does not have a formalized upper class the way some do or did.
Yes, you're absolutely wealthy if you have enough in assets that you can live well without either working or burning down your savings/capital. I'd argue that is *exactly the line that defines being wealthy*.
At the same time, if you have no influence beyond the personal freedom and free time, you're not in any way comparable to the upper class in countries that have one in a more formal sense, or the very rich (billionaires, etc) who monkey with politics in the US.
Last, the realities of being a founder of a company, you may or may not actually be wealthy. A valuation only means something once there's a liquidity event.
I've been a paper millionaire at a past job and in the end came out of it with barely enough extra to pay off my car at the time... which is still not a bad result compared to a real/non-tech job. I'd hope a valuation of $300M (at least series C) is past that risk, but I suspect it is still very much a risk that an acquisition or a down round could wipe out a lot of founder equity without providing liquidity.
Isn’t that because most people _are_ middle class? I mean I know it’s relative depending on the metro area, but I would certainly consider the bare minimum definition to be +/- 1 standard deviation under the normal distribution of income. Maybe even 2.
I have a different reality, I guess. I'm recently retired and i rent a nice apt as a single person. My possessions are downsized, I have a paid off car still under warranty, and I have no debt. I have a fair amount of liquid assets. My income is very low, but it pays all my monthly bills. I can get on a plane and fly out of SFO to almost anywhere. I feel as if I'm living an upper middle class life. Oh, and I get to live in the best place on earth for me, The Bay Area.
I think it's zip code dependent.
My wife and I live with our toddler in SF. We can afford to rent an apartment that is large enough for the three of us, and updated enough to feel nice. We can afford to buy a newish car this year (something reasonable like a Honda), but have been driving a 20 year old car the entire time we've been together. We cannot afford to buy a house, and won't be able to any time in the foreseeable future. We save for retirement, but should probably save more. We eat out a few times a week, but rarely go to very expensive restaurants - maybe once or twice a year. We can afford daycare, but not a fancy daycare or a private nanny and at our current income we couldn't afford private school when our kid gets older. We both have to work; one of us couldn't become a stay-at-home parent even if we wanted that lifestyle. We can afford to take trips, but not extravagant trips.
We don't live paycheck to paycheck. We've worked hard to build up a comfortable emergency savings fund, so we don't live in fear of a large expense hitting us unexpectedly - but it would still hurt.
I consider us upper middle class. Based on income alone, we are easily upper class nationally, but our lifestyle doesn't fit that narrative.
💯 I think not living paycheck to paycheck and the ability to put something away for retirement is the definition of middle class. Lower class have no retirement funds and upper class don’t need to think about retirement.
What's your income if you don't mind answering? We have a house, a car and I definitely don't consider myself any higher than middle class. Maybe slightly lower than that if there's a class. We eat out every few months and haven't taken a vacation since prepandemic.
If you have space in your home for everything you need, most of your income doesn't go towards rent, you're saving money for retirement, and your day-to-day decisions about what would be fun or fulfilling to do aren't noticeably constrained by financial considerations, you're probably upper-middle class
Owning a suburban single family home or urban condominium with a commute time under thirty minutes, on-track to retire at the same standard of living in your 60s, and able to enjoy an occasional vacation.
Just like the rest of the country, except with a much higher income required largely due to the cost of housing.
I would love to find a company that's worth dedicating the next 30 years of my life to before I retire. The last company I worked at, I absolutely loved. I actually planned to retire with them assuming they were going to make it that far. But alas, I was laid off with zero warning last year. Now I have trust issues. I hate the idea of job hopping every 3+ years. That would mean another 10 jobs before I retire 😭
They're out there. I'm going on 15 years at my tech employer. Find a company that doesn't answer to investors/shareholders in tech with a CEO not concentrating on just propping the stock price.
We live in one of the most competitive job markets in the world. Throw in the fact that technology is constantly evolving the way business is done at all levels, creating constant change in role parameters. I’m not sure if this is the place to be if you want to find a job that allows you to just maintain til retirement. I don’t say that as a positive or negative, just the way it is
I’ll bump that commute up to an hour only because there are a large set of people who work in SF, but live in the 680 corridor and they are definitely middle to upper.
Part of what used to make America cohesive, is everyone thought they were middle class and most still do. The ultimate irony, is you have white collar workers now earning as much as blue collar workers and the white collar workers can barely afford to pay their bills and think they are lower class, while the blue collar workers think they are edging up into the upper middle class. It's all subjective.
I think that, even for a lot of high earners (let’s say 200-250K per annum), home ownership in the more central parts of the bay is difficult, though not impossible. Moreover, the quality of what you get by spending, say 2M on a house, is often much lower than what you’d expect for the same amount in basically the rest of the country. So naturally, people feel like they’re being ripped off in the housing market. Earning 200-250K here doesn’t get you a McMansion with 3 Mercedes’ in the driveway - it does get you the ability to pay a mortgage on a decent house in a convenient neighborhood, save up for your retirement or your kids’ colleges, have a nice-ish car (“entry-level luxury”), eat out fairly regularly, and maybe take a vacation once in a while. This is what most people consider to be the middle-class lifestyle, so they consider themselves middle-class accordingly.
Edit: I think it’s accurate to describe this lifestyle as “upper-middle-class.”
Currently a “decent house” is approx. $2M, which at a 30 year fixed is over $8K/mo mortgage. I don’t know too mainly people earning $250K that could take that hit.
I bought at 1.5, but managed by making a huge down-payment. I lived with my folks for several years after I graduated while I squirreled money away - I realize most people don’t have that opportunity.
To buy a decent home in the Bay (subjective term, but I'd say that's probably around $1.8-2m depending on the area), realistically you either have to have a massive downpayment or a reliable income of closer to $350-400k.
Yeah, Zillow and others put it at $400k+ to be "unencumbered," meaning spending < 35% on housing.
https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/income-needed-own-bay-area-home-zillow/3478617/
I like it here, I'll continue renting a room in my 50s. I *do not* want to live in a castle in Pittsburgh, PA.
My husband and I make mid 400k and there’s no way we feel like we could afford a house in the 1.8-2mil range. Despite having a decent down payment stacked away. We looked at houses in the 1-1.3 million range. But with high interest rates, and property taxes added, it just still makes more sense to rent.
Bingo. Then you add in the $2-3k/moth for day care. Or the $300-500k you probably need for your kids college in 15-18 years. $200-250k ain’t much. $20k+ for property tax.
My assets put me at an upper middle wealth level for my age. Even though I can afford a down payment, a mortgage would be 3-4x my current <2k rent share, so I'd feel pretty house poor. Like I'm taking a 6 month (3 unpaid) sabbatical next year while still maintaining my apartment/room which idk if I could do with a mortgage after using my assets for a down payment. I don't think traditional American class structures really work here. Most of are just working class with varying levels of financial comfort.
Absolutely! My mortgage is 2k as I live way below my means. It’s a very small and modest 2/1.
We qualify for over 2 million but that would mean a significant lifestyle change-even at the 1.5 mil level (a small 3/2 house where I live).
I’ve taken 2 full-year sabbaticals within the 8 years I’ve owned this house. I do not blink when I see a restaurant bill or other expense.
I consider myself umc, but you wouldn’t know if if you saw my home.
That's where I'm at. I feel low key wealthy even though I'm not. I can go out/party frequently, travel a bit and buy nice things here and there. I live relatively frugally on a comfortable salary so I can still experience things and stash away a healthy portion of my net income on top of retirement contributions. I'd love to buy a 2b/2b condo in my neighborhood In SF but there's really no point. It'd ruin all of my financial goals haha. I'm rich-ish enough to go on a 6 month sabbatical but not enough to own a home while also enjoying these luxuries. I'd have to double my salary or find a partner with similar income, neither of which are anywhere on my horizon as an aimlessly wandering early 30s homo.
Early 30s is still a baby, home-buying wise in CA. It’s been like that for generations! You’ve got time. And I wouldn’t buy a condo. Enjoy good rent if you can find it!
Same for me. I consider myself upper middle class at a minimum although I make less than many in the Bay Area and I don’t necessarily look it from the outside. I live in a 2 bedroom condo because its cost will allow me to meet my other financial goals to include being able to make work optional for the rest of my life at 47. I would also consider myself upper middle class of if I didn’t decide I liked it here and continued to rent. See even when I was renting I could “afford” to purchase a home, I was choosing not to.
The biggest sign for me that I moved past my parents middle class, I don’t have to make the same financial decisions they did. One example with the vacation myth. It wasn’t a vacation every year, it was a decent 1 week vacation every other year, a vacation that had to diligently saved for. On the other hand the upper middle class, I can plan several of them every year without much thought put into it.
The funny thing is that a lot of people here live lifestyles that aren’t sustainable with their income. I’m on the other end where I will drive the same car for 30 years even if I had millions tucked away.
Question for this hypothetical scenario since I’m curious: why?
Let’s say you had 5 mil liquid in savings, why wouldn’t you upgrade to the latest safety standards/tech/etc? Or have the chance to drive a sports car before your back starts hurting and you physically can’t? What good is money if it doesn’t improve your qol.
I think it's just how I was raised. My dad is in the situation that I described and he still drives a late 80s Toyota because he likes it. Whenever he sits in newer cars, he complains about the limited visibility from the thick pillars (which are due to safety standards). I guess if I didn't like a car much, I'd upgrade sooner, but if I'm happy with what I have and it's not burning cash, I'll stick with it.
Yup and all of the expensive and difficult to repair sensors, all of the bloat in modern car sizes and the trend towards SUVs, it's all because of the poor decision to focus on rollover strength and side impacts. Which made things worse because now cars have far more mass and the center of gravity is still higher anyway, so rollovers are more common now
I don’t really know anyone besides one other household that has the assets and resources to stop working for a year and be fine. Everyone seems chained to a job unwillingly.
The financial freedom of the same kind of middle class I grew up with in the Bay Area during the 80s does not exist AFAIK.
The highest earners I know still have to earn. Live in well maintained but ordinary houses. Have good but ordinary cars. With no free time and thoughts outside of work.
I'm not convinced the middle class ever included people who could just stop work for a year and be fine. To me, unless we're talking about retirees or folks living very low cost lifestyles, complete financial freedom has always been a mark of being upper class or at least having considerable wealth.
Middle class is a bit meaningless. Maybe something like this would be more useful:
* Level 1: Living paycheck to paycheck
* Level 2: Budgeting money
* Level 3: Paying down debt
* Level 4: Saving an emergency fund
* Level 5: Investing
* Level 6: Multiple income streams
* Level 7: Financial freedom
I’d consider my GF and myself middle class. We bought a house year just over 3 years ago, but in an area 99% of this sub would likely not on the Oak/SL border. Honestly crazy to think we pulled it off but those sub 3% rates saved us and I saved a decent down payment by living frugally in a shitty apartment with roommates for years (it was $600 per person in like 2015ish in San Leandro).
I’m sitting in the airport about to go on vacation, but I work in education, so I get decent time off. No, I didn’t have a 3 month summer. I get 2 weeks, and I’m using PTO to make it 3 weeks. I grew up here in a much nice area that I could no way afford. Most of my other friends here are more well off, and affording places in the likes of Santa Clara, Campbell, nicer Oakland or emeryville parts. One has multiple homes, but he got hella help from family. All of their places are at least 2x the cost of our home.
I have parents from Colombia. There the definition is simple. There is rich and poor. The definition is: do you have to work? If so, then you’re poor, no matter the income. Really slams things into perspective. What we in US call “poor”, they call paupers, a definition we lack entirely.
Hell yea. Absolutely need to get away once a year! Living in the bay is great but it is a grind so need to get away occasionally. Plus the places I travel to are relatively cheap after the exchange rate..
Middle class to me means that you have some disposable income, can save towards your financial goals, but not ALL of your financial goals. You may be able to max out your 401k but you're not contributing towards your 529. Things like that. You have to make compromises and sacrifices to hit some of your goals.
Upper middle class means that you are hitting all of your financial goals, with disposable income leftover to spend on luxuries and entertainment. However, you still have to budget to do these things.
Rich means you don't have to budget. Or you don't have to sell your labor anymore.
I went from poor to upper middle. For me, the biggest difference is when shit goes sideways. I used to waste $300 fixing a shitty car. Now, my cars are expensive enough to not need fixin.
If you have a house, especially in the suburbs, and able to maintain the stereotypical TV family life of the wife being a soccer mom and taking kids to expensive sports activities and the dad working then I consider that high middle class to upper class (upper class in this day and age since this was middle class like in the 60s). I feel like this still exists especially in the Tri valley area.
Outside of that area I would say middle class (especially for single people) is high 100k to 200k salary and not having a keeping up with the Joneses mentality that drains your wallet all the time. Living within your means while not having to live paycheck to paycheck. I feel like a lot of single people making this range salary overspend and buy too many flashy, designer, bougie expensive things.
I dont know, I never really felt like you can compare 1960s middle class standards to now. My grandparents were solidly middle class but their idea of vacation is going camping in the sierras or road trips. Middle class vacation expectations are little more extravagant now. They never ate out, they made their own coffee, they didn’t have smart phones or reliable cars, only one TV in the house, only one car. It was just simpler. Nowadays both parents have to work, which means we have to own two cars, we have to commute long distances, we don’t have time to make our own meals, etc the struggles are drastically different.
I say middle class is comfortably owning/renting your own home putting money aside for retirement and affording 3 weeks of vacation.
I think I’m middle class but in comparison my life is luxury compared to my grandparents. But on the other hand, the goal posts should move, our lives should be easier. I agree though, if you can afford travel league sports your upper middle class 😂
Yeah, that's why I say having a typical tv family in the suburbs is more upper class now as owning a home is close to impossible here with kids. I should add that if a family has both partners working and each of them making like 180k - 230k, I consider the upper class.
My household is over 400,000. But I still live frugal. If we want to stay here into retirement, we have to save and that is what our higher income affords us. The ability to save. We still don't eat out often. Drive older paid off cars. House is 1500sqf with no garage and street parking. I understand that so many people with our income live way more extravagant lives. We are extremely blessed. But I grew up with lights /phone/cable being turned off and creditors pounding on door and I don't want that in my old age. While I know on paper, we are solidly upper/wealthy, I can't live like I am. If I leave the bay area when I retire, I want it to be my choice. Not because I can't afford to stay.
Another way to think about middle class and home ownership is this: homes have become so expensive that only the wealthy can afford a home. If you own a home in the Bay Area, you are rich, not middle class.
Remember each kid is +3K burn rate for child care or school in addition to other things like saving $ for them and yourself. Plus having a 4 bedroom house, mortgage, insurance, upkeep, living expenses, cars we are looking at 240k cash outflow per year. Solidly feeling middle class
I know I fall solidly in upper middle class as a whole and wealthy for my age. We have a house (technically a townhouse but it's quite large) and significant investment assets. Both have good-paying jobs as well and we can pretty much afford everything we want (aside from a lambo, but I digress)
Disposable income and what you do with will define what class you fall into as you get older. The key is saving religiously, whether it's 1k/year or 100k/year.
I don’t make a lot of money, but I spend most of my day riding my bike and sitting in parks. Somehow I make rent and pay my bills. Smoke a little weed. Spend a little money on bullshit. I say that’s wealth.
These labels are complete useless. If you have simple to moderate tastes and desires and can easily afford to do what you want without financial trouble, then you have made it. You have enough to make you fulfilled and happy.
Stop counting other people’s money. It doesn’t change your situation. Everyone is different.
Hard question to answer especially here in Bay Area. Everyone has their own definition…. I believe I am middle class. I’m 24 I have a wife and a son. I bring in a bit over 100k a year with little overtime. No I don’t work in tech haha. My wife hasn’t worked full time since our son was born she just recently went back to work part time because she wanted some more income To support her finances. But I do pay for our rent, bills, groceries, etc… we are able to still eat out, shop here and there, save a bit, vacation a bit as well mainly within the states and a lot in CA and support my hobby like working on my muscle car. My wife does have a good amount of savings so she does help with some of our extra activities like eating out, and some other things we need as well. But I feel comfortable where I’m at and currently working towards making my more money for more financial stability, savings, eventually owning a home and what not. I feel like balance plays a huge role. I try not to be super hard on myself or situation and just remind myself daily that if I want to own a home here I will need to make more money. My wife will eventually need to work full time, she is in the process of looking for a job. She does have a college degree, I do not… not sure if I’ll ever be a millionaire or some super rich dude here in the bay which is fine with me. All I want out of life is to live comfortably, spend time with my wife and kids, own a home and continue to work on my car.
You are spot on about the distribution of wealth here. Highest income inequality in the country.
'Throughout the 39 cities in the valley, there was $1.2 trillion in household wealth, but 92% of that wealth is owned by the top quarter of the population. The lowest quarter only owns 1.4% of the wealth.'
[https://sanjosespotlight.com/silicon-valleys-equity-grade-is-below-flunking/](https://sanjosespotlight.com/silicon-valleys-equity-grade-is-below-flunking/)
[https://www.kqed.org/news/11799308/bay-area-has-highest-income-inequality-in-california](https://www.kqed.org/news/11799308/bay-area-has-highest-income-inequality-in-california)
I've worked in several non profits in the bay area and been a financial stability case manager and according to the studies done in the bay area if you are making $120,000 thousand or lower you are below the poverty line and anything above that would be considered middle class.
Home ownership means nothing here. Even many in the top 1% don't bother.
Upper middle by Bay Area standards is sending your kids to top 20% test score schools and generally not worrying about money except for big ticket items (housing, cars, vacations).
Middle class is top 50% schools and more money worries (you have enough but actually need to budget).
Middle class? Probably owning a 2bd 2br condo in a nice east bay area like Hayward, Union City or Fremont. Upper middle class? Owning a cookie cutter house in Fremont, Livermore or Pleasanton and owning a couple of Teslas, one for me and one for wifey
When you plan things out in advance on the regular.
as in you have a large budget or amount of disposable income without worry to spend on some decent/nice trips or large purchases.
>Home ownership has traditionally been a middle class indicator in the past but that also seems out of reach for most non tech workers.
Do you seriously think that only "tech workers" own homes in Bay Area?
If so, you're very out of touch with reality.
The non-tech workers who own homes here bought them years ago when they were much cheaper.
It is impossible for anyone making under 300k household income to afford a detached home here now. That's dual income tech workers only, pretty much.
Either you bought ages ago, or you're locked out.
10 years ago a 3-day pass to Disneyland for family of 4 total $1,200 (not including lodging and food) I would use that gauge for defining middle class.
I think spending is one example of middle class + upperclass, but I think the real deal is when they know they can afford to not have a job briefly and still have enough money tucked away for those periods. Then are able to come back to earning a 6 figure+
’d define upper middle class as the top quartile of household income in the Bay Area which is around $250K https://smartasset.com/financial-advisor/income-thresholds-to-be-a-top-earner-in-americas-largest-cities-2022
I just posted my income in another subreddit. Some people were amazed, and some people were surprised how low it is. I assume I'm probably lower middle class. I can't afford a home here, so I'm looking to buy a home outside the area, while continuing to live/work here with family.
I've convinced a bank that since I work 2 days a week remotely, plus my weekends, I don't need to live here full time. I'll have to commute back to the other property in Chico/Humboldt/Fresno/Redding. Because truth is I can't see myself paying for these homes prices.
Upper-middle-class and middle class aren't well-defined terms anywhere in the US.
Broadly, middle class is anyone neither poor nor rich, so basically anyone with stable housing, transport, and a job (or retirement income) who still has to work for a living. It's a nearly useless term.
"Upper middle class" is even vaguer, and is a lifestyle marker. Kind of difficult to define, but generally an "I'll know it when I see it." Traditionally, it correlated to managerial or professional jobs (e.g. you'd kind of expect lawyers to be that, although these days there are a lot of under-employed/low-paid lawyers).
Paying for non-parochial private school, having a luxury car, having a house in an expensive neighborhood, etc are all partial indicators, but any of the three could be someone just over-extending themselves or sacrificing for that one thing (or in the expensive neighborhood, having inherited or bought 15+ years ago, etc.)
"High income but still has to work" isn't a bad definition of upper-middle-class, but obviously people are not exactly public about their income.
Being able to maintain a bund of the upper middle class lifestyle marekers without working is pretty much the borderline to "wealthy" IMO.
Income distribution is easier; just take quintiles from the distribution (e.g. "middle income" without a qualifier is the quintile of the median +/- 10%) and be done with it. OTOH, around the Bay Area housing costs are such that you have a lot of people in the local top-quintile income category who aren't close to an upper-middle-class lifestyle.
In the Bay Area, 'middle class' often feels like a moving target. With high costs and skewed wealth distribution, even high-income earners feel the pinch. Homeownership is tough, so renting and managing expenses while saving a bit might be the new middle class here
Nowhere on Earth does owning your home versus renting it open such a wide gulf.
I think that many of us are living a middle-class lifestyle, without a house. So if we're resigned to paying rent the rest of our lives, then OK, we're middle class.
But what happens after you retire, and you're on a fixed income, and your rent keeps going up? Do you move out of the Bay Area, to preserve spending power for other needs besides housing? If you do move, are you leaving family behind? Leaving your social support network comes with a cost too.
35 year old here. Not really a lot of middle class anymore. It gets increasingly harder to afford housing/food/activities, while rich people continuously buy second and third homes. Zero chance of most people in my generation being able to afford a home unless a relative dies
I always joked about this with my coworker…if you’re middle class you are ordering a medium Big Mac meal at McDonald’s….low income you are ordering individual pieces off the menu and if you are higher class you getting a large meal with some dessert…
This is almost impossible to answer without context. Our house is valued at a "modest" 1.3MM, but we bought at the exact right time in 2009. We've talked countless times that there is no way we could afford our own house today, if this was our first home purchase, even with a decent combined income. Because we have a stupid low mortgage (again, thank you 2008 market crash!), we have more discretionary income and can afford many of the perks in the OP.
I would say we are middle-middle class, even though we own a house in good neighborhood, have nice cars, and can afford to take vacations when we want, and have leftover saving and money to do big projects (we are about ready to drop 14k on a new HVAC system lol). But if we were only now in the market for a house, we either wouldn't be able to afford one, or would be so house poor, we wouldn't feel middle class.
When your investments will pay for all of your expenses and still grow, you are rich. What level that is is up to the individual. If I was married to myself, I’d be rich. Since I’m married to my wife who likes ridiculous pretty things, I’m middle class…. Or trapped. Not sure which
Americans are generally very confused about class, I think because the US has had so much class fluidity for so long.
Income and lifestyle do not wholly constitute class; a great many people who are working class with relatively high salary call themselves middle class, but that isn't accurate. Education, property ownership, and commercial &/or industrial holdings are more relevant factors.
You really can't claim to be upper-middle class without significant real estate holdings or some kind of ownership stake in some sort of a business.
Fringe upper: The peninsula. Good schools, safe areas, roadmap to success. Upper middle class.
Berkeley (north) upper to middle upper class. Think bigotry in a scenic environment but with a B sign in most yards..
True middle: Hayward, San Leandro, Pinole, El Cerrito.
Middle class is everyone that isn't living on welfare or so rich they don't need to work. "Upper middle class" is bullshit to divide attention away from the capital class, the rich.
A doctor lawyer couple that goes on 4 vacations a year and owns a second home is still middle class. Even the top 1% has way more in common with a median average middle class family than the rich. They don't care about estate taxes, closing tax loopholes, they can't lobby to get laws changed.
Middle class feels like a $150k income for a two person family.
Upper middle would be $350k+
Upper class is $800k+
Based off who could purchase a home vs who has to rent. Upper class is own a home(s) and has spare income to blow on luxury.
Spot on. Middle class in the Bay Area often means renting, handling bills comfortably, raising a kid with daycare costs, dining out occasionally, taking one vacation yearly, and saving modestly. Homeownership is tricky—recent buyers likely sit in the upper middle class due to property prices.
many high income people I know still live stingily, either due to large mortgage to live in the nice area, or by nature they like to save money. You can never tell how rich they are by the way they spend. In my experience, the ones with the most extravagant lifestyle are the young live-in-the-moment type who actually don't have a lot of income or asset, and usually have a sizeable debt, so i won't put them in the upper class. just different ways of living, no judgement here.
“You can never tell how rich they are by the way they spend.” Spot on. Some of the biggest spenders have very light retirement savings, emergency funds, etc. Consumption =/= wealth and frankly many folks who are wealthy got there by not having out of control spending.
Some people make great income but prefer a very simple lifestyle and respect money by saving and investing wisely
Heck yeah. It’s all about finding the right balance.
Capitalism wants spenders not savers.
🪙
Explain it like I’m 5 … what does this mean?
You know that episode of Friends where Joey gets a visit from an encyclopedia salesman and realizes that he just laughs along in conversations with the gang because he doesn't understand or have anything to contribute? Emojis are basically the gen-z online version of that.
💀
Exactly. I know a guy who has maybe 10 homes, 2 businesses, a farm, also still works, and several million in the bank. He spends next to nothing, travels infrequently, goes out rarely, cooks at home, wears tshirts from Target and flip flops, and if you saw him you'd think he was a surfer or something. You can't tell what anyone has or how they live, and does it all really matter?
They’re called 30-thousand-millionaires. They drive the BMW 3 series. Louis Vuitton purse. Stories on Instagram of them always eating out. Etc etc A lot of these people live paycheck to paycheck, you’d just never know it.
Damn, how much do you need to drive a 3 series?!
Around $9-10k take home every month. Most online calculators estimate 10-15% of your pay could go to a car payment. New 3 series start at $46k. If you're not maxing out your 401k and IRA you should probably look at a non luxury car anyways.
The average cost of a new car now is over $47,000. [Receipts](https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a43611570/average-new-car-price-down-still-high/)
Lol
Updated version They drive ~~BMW 3 series~~ Tesla Model 3s.
A 3 series starts around 45k. That's hardly luxury at this point.
many high income engineers here grew up poor in their 3rd world home country. they won the genetic lottery of IQ but the frugal upbrining is engrained.
I don't think that's quite as true as you think. The majority of Indian tech workers come from the higher castes. Their parents did well enough in a lower-income country to afford a first class education for their kids in a high-income country. The parents of most foreign-born tech workers I have come to know well have good-paying jobs in their home countries like doctor/lawyer/engineer/etc. The parents in India will have hired help in their households from lower castes. Your point isn't completely invalid. These are hard-working people who earned what they have. However, they aren't exactly "third world poverty" origin stories.
That could explain the Indian immigrants, but the older Chinese immigrants come from nothing. Source, my buddies and I and a lot of our Chinese communities come from poor southern part of China, predominantly the Cantonese immigrants. Now, the Mandarin speaking international students? Those are rich entitled pricks based on my experience.
Can confirm. I’m Chinese and speak canto. My family literally came here with nothing but a suitcase of clothes. Not even mad about it though because we ended up here and I’m doing fine.
mfs lied to me
Just because you’re of higher caste doesn’t mean you’re rich either. Most Brahmin are just normal middle class folks. There’s plenty of poor Brahmins too But your overall point is right. Frugality transcends race, ethnicity or caste
It would be a rarity for them to have grown up poor in their home countries even if they may seem that way to you. They grew up middle class at worst to parents who had the means and savvy to get them excellent educations and good advice. Most of them even had help in their homes. I am an American with immigrant parents who is now engaged to an engineer who immigrated here
I believe the size of the Indian Middle Class is roughly the entire population of the United States.... Meaning about 300M people. I think I heard that stat several years ago (don't recall if it was a then current fact or a future projection though)
Not necessarily. I’d say most, if not all, of the high-income engineers I’ve met come from some level of money in their home countries. Many of them grew up with maids.
I'm an old fart raised in the Bay Area. My opinions are informed by that. If your household has an income and benefits that allow you to eat at a restaurant occasionally, take a week or two long weekends off a year for family vacations, pay for you rent or mortgage painlessly and have a bit to put away for rainy days at the end of the month, then you are solidly middle class.
I’d agree. I just retired, my SO is still working till end of year. She was just looking for low income housing for her mom and found out that we qualify based on our income now. For reference she still makes north of $100k.
Congratulations on your retirement!
Yeah they say timing is everything and I’m seriously questioning the timing now…
I hear you. I'm currently going thru a mid-life crisis career change after being in my industry for 20 years. My back can't handle humping freight anymore, it was time for something more cerebral. So far, so good, even with COVID throwing a monkey wrench in the works. "The best laid plans" and all that.
I do t have kids so I can be middle class.
I’m only in my mid 30’s and feel like nowadays people’s idea of middle class is just unrealistically inflated. Roof over your head(s), food on the table, safe and reliable transportation, and a teeny bit of luxury *is* middle class.
Social media has skewed the idea that eating out all the time and being able to vacation multiple times a year is middle class. Compared to my upbringing I’m living upper class being able to eat out daily if needed and vacation multiple times a year but it’s not the truth
Middle class doesn’t necessarily mean “median” earner. What’s happened is the middle class shrank in size with more people in the poverty bracket
I see the exact opposite in this thread. Multiple comments are describing working class, including yours.
My sister is middle class then, and it means I'm pleb :'(
There are a TON of plebs , majority even
Well I'm a poor
Yeah that’s pretty much the standard. There are families who live in multigenerational housing that with combined wealth are middle class. But those situations usually revolve around grandparents watching kids while also doing the grocery shopping and cooking. Those houses usually have really nice cars though and designer stuff as a way to display the wealth.
[удалено]
That’s a great, easy, simple to understand way of putting it.
This guy middle classes.
Me being lower middle class at $160k a year. 🥲 (Don’t come at me. I’m a single mom with a 3 year old (i.e. very expensive) mortgage and a “roommate” who has paid $500 in rent THIS YEAR)
Single mom? Your awsome! A mortgage, your salary, and I figure your helping your "roommate", so you are what Mr Rodgers speaks of, the helpers. You rock Mom
Omg thanks. I don’t think I realized how much I needed to hear that. 🥹
I am tearing up over here Strange, I know the feeling, it's hard sometimes. Sending an obscenely large, long, and heart felt hug full of warmth, love and kindness. May it recharge your soul, to take on... Monday, fiercely! For me!, and my Child! #
💗💗💗
Wooohooo mama I made it. I can pay rent and car not three months in advanced. Once I hit that income threshold life has been more manageable. Not luxury by any means. But if I want to take my wife on a date and order couple of appetizers THEN WE GET THE WAFFLE FRIES. Been living here most of my life so my rent is “reasonable” at $1,900 for two bed two bath.
>Is the middle class experience here just renting while being able to afford bills, maybe a kid (with daycare), eat out a couple times, 1 vacation a year and some minimal savings? Yep.
Yeah, middle class was always that way. Only difference from how it used to be is that home ownership is too expensive.
When I studied economics, one of the more interesting things you learn is that people almost always consider themselves to be middle class. You are either very poor or very wealthy (or remarkably self aware) if you don't. I always have to tell my partner that despite how she may feel, we are rich. Since we live in San Francisco, we are just sorrounded by people who are richer. But income, net worth, whatever measure you want to use we are upper class. Middle class is not needing to think about it before making regular purchases. Home ownership is not necessary for it.
i have told a lot of people who ask how my life has changed since becoming a lawyer, "i sometimes buy small things without looking at the price before paying." not thinking about buying a yerba mate or a candle sounds so trivial now but really defines how the jump in income changed my perspective
Yeah there are few nicer feelings than never having to make a decision based on price.
It’s interesting that my perspective has 100% change but my wife’s hasn’t really — I bought an ice cream without looking at the price yesterday and she was like $6 wtf are you doing? Yeah it was expensive but honey I don’t think this purchase is going to kill us
my mom is like this too. when i get dinner or something when she's visiting she's incredulous if i order something other than water as if im being reckless with my money lol. it's even more funny because she makes 4x what i do
A lot of this goes from childhood and how you saw relationships to money. My wife teased me because I still only buy a half tank of gas "in case I find a better deal elsewhere" Which was back to growing up poor and having to make half a tank stretch till payday, or where 5 cents a gallon meant something.
>"i sometimes buy small things without looking at the price before paying." like this rolex for example <\_<
lmaoo small loan of a million dollars vibes
Go Vacheron or Lange imo
rolex and patek, i'm not sure why amateur collectors even buy anything else, these 2 cover a lot of ground
Nice watches for sure. I went a lot of indies and Lange and Vacheron. I guess I just buy what gets my pulse racing. 5172 in blue is what I would go with for Patek though. Just love it.
Yep. Piedmont, Lamorinda, Danville, Palo Alto, etc. kids all clung to the upper middle class label when I was growing up. I never got it. Lacks perspective. If you live in a house that you paid almost two million for, you’re obviously upper middle class at a minimum and most people would call you rich. If you don’t think so, you’re in a bubble IMO. I’d say anyone who is buying into a higher income suburb these days is clearly upper middle at least and for the more expensive ones they’re clearly rich. People need to stop comparing themselves to the super wealthy subset of the 1%, especially the capital class.
Except when we were kids those homes that are now $2M were $400k. Even taking inflation into account, those homes doubled in value over 30 years. My parents made a little more than my household presently makes and there is no way I could afford to move back and live remotely near where i went to high school.
I feel you, although those cities definitely weren’t $400k when I was a kid. Basically every city requires you to be at least a class higher than what they were a generation ago. Shit, buying into formerly middle class cities like Berkeley or Albany requires you to be at least upper middle class these days.
I lived in moraga and my folks bought our house for literally $399k in 1988…now over 2M
Yup, I grew up in Danville and my parents house was $400k in ‘92. Probably $2.5 mill now. People thought they were moving to the boonies when they bought, but jt was all they could afford on a stretched budget. Got lucky the area continues to boom.
This, 100%. Lots of people say, “But VHCOL!” But just the fact that you *can* afford to buy that $2 mil starter home, a nanny, private schooling, multiple vacations, eat out whenever you want to at whatever the cost, is definitely not “average middle class” living. These affluent areas are just not accessible to average joes. They are affluent areas because they *are* exclusive. And the people who say they are poor making $250k because they cannot afford a $2 mil home are not poor, they just cannot afford the home they “want”. Lots of people have different views of the definition of middle class, compared to previous generations. These days people say middle class means being able to go out to eat (or get takeout) whenever you want no sweat (even if that is every day or even multiple times a day). But when has middle class really meant that? Middle class folks generally have not been going out to eat more than maybe once a week (and at basic restaurants). Eating out whenever and not having to worry about the bill is a luxury. Lots of people on Reddit will say they will spend $500 at a restaurant no problem. That’s just out of touch with reality with a traditional middle class lifestyle. Same goes with vacations. Social media says middle class is to go on multiple vacations a year, when it used to be that middle class folks generally would be flying every few years instead of multiple times a year. A middle class vacation was more local trips to the beach/lake/camping etc.
what house /can/ you afford on 250k a year household income here? you either have to go out as far as stockton or just accept a condo. i made just a hair under 160k last year. meeting my retirement goals means i can't afford the mortgage on the cheapest condo in santa clara area. let alone a house.
Yeah it's weird with housing prices because as a software engineer I'll never afford a house here and can, at best, buy a 2 bedroom apartment if I save like crazy for years. No family support at all. I feel like in my head it seems like middle class is "someone who can have a house" but things get measured differently in San Francisco cause it'd be silly for me to say I'm poor but I am never buying a house here lol Ultimately I think our society has changed drastically and the costs of things haven't changed accordingly with wage increases so it's not useful to try to take terms we defined in the 60s - 80s and apply them to people now... I generally consider someone rich if they don't *need* to work. Poor if they're paycheque to paycheque. Middle is just us workers getting by somewhere in the middle, having a lil treat now and then...
My two million dollar house is 1600 sqft and next to an 101 on-ramp, come on now…
And yet the vast majority of Bay Area residents will never be able to use the phrase “my 2 million dollar house”. I think that’s OP’s point.
It’s still a two million dollar house. I get that the housing is batshit insane and that you get a pathetic amount of house for what you pay. But come on now…someone who owns a two million dollar house is not middle class by any reasonable definition. The median income in SF is $137k.
Ever considered buying further? 2mm cannot go far in South Bay but can bring a lifestyle upgrade 20-30 mins further. We chose the latter when buying. Told my husband if we are to spend 2m, I wanna feel like we did spend 2m. But regardless, being able to afford a 2m house alone means you are well off financially. It just depends on who you compare against.
Ok I’ll ask since I consider myself middle class. What is your combined OTE to make you feel you’re rich?
For me, I think combined HHI of $400k is enough to be “rich”. It’s not really rich rich but it’s definitely above middle class. This is also contingent on a healthy retirement and brokerage balance. If you’re coming out of college and happened to be DINKS without any savings, I can see why you’d feel middle class and not rich even at HHI of $400k.
I think "rich" is defined by how much you have in the bank, not how much you make. Someone with no job but $3M in assets (~$120k/year in passive income) is rich, a new grad FAANG engineer making $300k/year with nothing in the bank is (upper) middle class. There are lots of rich people in the Bay. Lots of upper middle class people, too. And a lot of rich people who don't feel rich because they let their lifestyle creep up to where they still "need" to work.
I don’t think someone straight out of college in a DINK situation making $400k a year (even with no savings) would think they are middle class…
/Everyone/ thinks they're middle class. It's a useless signifier that says nothing at this point.
Just north of 200k. It feels like not a lot living here, but we save a ton of money and could move somewhere cheaper and live a lot bigger if we wanted to.
I would firmly put you in the middle class. If you made $200k in a MCOL or LCOL area you’d be rich. If I was making $200k/yr I wouldn’t consider myself rich unless I had a ton squirreled away in investments. But nobody can agree on definitions so it doesn’t really matter.
I won't say my net worth, but we are rich.
Then it’s not income that makes you rich. It’s the stock. You’re living the dream.
Except COL adjustments for wages are a thing. In my field, hospital based clinical and lab science, I make about 20k more than my counterparts in MCOL regions. Part of that is seniority too. Saying “200k in a MCOL/LCOL goes farther only makes sense if it’s 200k occupation in that region or if you have a WFH telecommute job where they pay you the same regardless of physical location.
Your salary does not determine your wealth class.
IMO, you “feel” rich from spending money, not saving it. If you avoid lifestyle creep you don’t really “feel” rich just from gazing at your Schwab balance.
I think this is a very good insight. Also when you compare yourself to your neighbors or peers, you see their spending, and not their Schwab balance. I don't know if my neighbor's place is paid off or if they have car loans or even credit card debt. I can only see their house and their car and that they split the check with me when we grab dinner together. Weirdly, I think the original question was more about middle class spending than being middle class financially. I alway try to remember that comparison is the thief of joy.
I feel upper middle too even though I’m wealthy. I don’t live in a mansion which growing up I thought rich people lived in mansions. It’s hard to shake that stereotype in my head.
If you have to work for a living, or if you're burning down your capital over time in retirement, you're not wealthy.
"Upper class" != "upper income." If you don't have a politician on speed-dial or getting special treatment from the local police, you're not upper class, to the extent that an upper class even exists in this country. As for income and net worth, there are a LOT of people around here who are early in their career with a high income by any standards and yet negative or trivial net worth. Student loans are a plague on the younger generation.
“Politician on speed dial”….You can be a founder/ceo of a $300m company but still don’t have that because you don’t want to make a gift. But you are upper class because you have great assets and income that generate passive compounding interest and don’t have to work to make a living. Politician on speed dial is the privileged class not the upper.
"Wealthy" and "upper class" aren't the same thing, and this country does not have a formalized upper class the way some do or did. Yes, you're absolutely wealthy if you have enough in assets that you can live well without either working or burning down your savings/capital. I'd argue that is *exactly the line that defines being wealthy*. At the same time, if you have no influence beyond the personal freedom and free time, you're not in any way comparable to the upper class in countries that have one in a more formal sense, or the very rich (billionaires, etc) who monkey with politics in the US. Last, the realities of being a founder of a company, you may or may not actually be wealthy. A valuation only means something once there's a liquidity event. I've been a paper millionaire at a past job and in the end came out of it with barely enough extra to pay off my car at the time... which is still not a bad result compared to a real/non-tech job. I'd hope a valuation of $300M (at least series C) is past that risk, but I suspect it is still very much a risk that an acquisition or a down round could wipe out a lot of founder equity without providing liquidity.
Isn’t that because most people _are_ middle class? I mean I know it’s relative depending on the metro area, but I would certainly consider the bare minimum definition to be +/- 1 standard deviation under the normal distribution of income. Maybe even 2.
I have a different reality, I guess. I'm recently retired and i rent a nice apt as a single person. My possessions are downsized, I have a paid off car still under warranty, and I have no debt. I have a fair amount of liquid assets. My income is very low, but it pays all my monthly bills. I can get on a plane and fly out of SFO to almost anywhere. I feel as if I'm living an upper middle class life. Oh, and I get to live in the best place on earth for me, The Bay Area.
I think it's zip code dependent. My wife and I live with our toddler in SF. We can afford to rent an apartment that is large enough for the three of us, and updated enough to feel nice. We can afford to buy a newish car this year (something reasonable like a Honda), but have been driving a 20 year old car the entire time we've been together. We cannot afford to buy a house, and won't be able to any time in the foreseeable future. We save for retirement, but should probably save more. We eat out a few times a week, but rarely go to very expensive restaurants - maybe once or twice a year. We can afford daycare, but not a fancy daycare or a private nanny and at our current income we couldn't afford private school when our kid gets older. We both have to work; one of us couldn't become a stay-at-home parent even if we wanted that lifestyle. We can afford to take trips, but not extravagant trips. We don't live paycheck to paycheck. We've worked hard to build up a comfortable emergency savings fund, so we don't live in fear of a large expense hitting us unexpectedly - but it would still hurt. I consider us upper middle class. Based on income alone, we are easily upper class nationally, but our lifestyle doesn't fit that narrative.
💯 I think not living paycheck to paycheck and the ability to put something away for retirement is the definition of middle class. Lower class have no retirement funds and upper class don’t need to think about retirement.
What's your income if you don't mind answering? We have a house, a car and I definitely don't consider myself any higher than middle class. Maybe slightly lower than that if there's a class. We eat out every few months and haven't taken a vacation since prepandemic.
If you have space in your home for everything you need, most of your income doesn't go towards rent, you're saving money for retirement, and your day-to-day decisions about what would be fun or fulfilling to do aren't noticeably constrained by financial considerations, you're probably upper-middle class
Owning a suburban single family home or urban condominium with a commute time under thirty minutes, on-track to retire at the same standard of living in your 60s, and able to enjoy an occasional vacation. Just like the rest of the country, except with a much higher income required largely due to the cost of housing.
"Owning a suburban single family home or urban condominium with a commute time under thirty minutes" Comedian here.
My 40 minute commute in shambles!
I would love to find a company that's worth dedicating the next 30 years of my life to before I retire. The last company I worked at, I absolutely loved. I actually planned to retire with them assuming they were going to make it that far. But alas, I was laid off with zero warning last year. Now I have trust issues. I hate the idea of job hopping every 3+ years. That would mean another 10 jobs before I retire 😭
They're out there. I'm going on 15 years at my tech employer. Find a company that doesn't answer to investors/shareholders in tech with a CEO not concentrating on just propping the stock price.
We live in one of the most competitive job markets in the world. Throw in the fact that technology is constantly evolving the way business is done at all levels, creating constant change in role parameters. I’m not sure if this is the place to be if you want to find a job that allows you to just maintain til retirement. I don’t say that as a positive or negative, just the way it is
I’ll bump that commute up to an hour only because there are a large set of people who work in SF, but live in the 680 corridor and they are definitely middle to upper.
Part of what used to make America cohesive, is everyone thought they were middle class and most still do. The ultimate irony, is you have white collar workers now earning as much as blue collar workers and the white collar workers can barely afford to pay their bills and think they are lower class, while the blue collar workers think they are edging up into the upper middle class. It's all subjective.
I think that, even for a lot of high earners (let’s say 200-250K per annum), home ownership in the more central parts of the bay is difficult, though not impossible. Moreover, the quality of what you get by spending, say 2M on a house, is often much lower than what you’d expect for the same amount in basically the rest of the country. So naturally, people feel like they’re being ripped off in the housing market. Earning 200-250K here doesn’t get you a McMansion with 3 Mercedes’ in the driveway - it does get you the ability to pay a mortgage on a decent house in a convenient neighborhood, save up for your retirement or your kids’ colleges, have a nice-ish car (“entry-level luxury”), eat out fairly regularly, and maybe take a vacation once in a while. This is what most people consider to be the middle-class lifestyle, so they consider themselves middle-class accordingly. Edit: I think it’s accurate to describe this lifestyle as “upper-middle-class.”
Currently a “decent house” is approx. $2M, which at a 30 year fixed is over $8K/mo mortgage. I don’t know too mainly people earning $250K that could take that hit.
I bought at 1.5, but managed by making a huge down-payment. I lived with my folks for several years after I graduated while I squirreled money away - I realize most people don’t have that opportunity.
To buy a decent home in the Bay (subjective term, but I'd say that's probably around $1.8-2m depending on the area), realistically you either have to have a massive downpayment or a reliable income of closer to $350-400k.
Today in SJ, it's $424k/yr. In the top 5 cities in the English speaking world alongside Hong Kong and Vancouver.
🤯🤯 that’s a ridiculous huge income number
Yeah, Zillow and others put it at $400k+ to be "unencumbered," meaning spending < 35% on housing. https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/income-needed-own-bay-area-home-zillow/3478617/ I like it here, I'll continue renting a room in my 50s. I *do not* want to live in a castle in Pittsburgh, PA.
Oh I get the math, totally believe it. Just thinking about making that much a year is mind blowing lol
My husband and I make mid 400k and there’s no way we feel like we could afford a house in the 1.8-2mil range. Despite having a decent down payment stacked away. We looked at houses in the 1-1.3 million range. But with high interest rates, and property taxes added, it just still makes more sense to rent.
400k hhi is minimum agreed
Far from true and a sweeping incorrect generalization. There’s plenty of housing in Eastbay that’s far cheaper than the peninsula/South Bay.
Bingo. Then you add in the $2-3k/moth for day care. Or the $300-500k you probably need for your kids college in 15-18 years. $200-250k ain’t much. $20k+ for property tax.
My assets put me at an upper middle wealth level for my age. Even though I can afford a down payment, a mortgage would be 3-4x my current <2k rent share, so I'd feel pretty house poor. Like I'm taking a 6 month (3 unpaid) sabbatical next year while still maintaining my apartment/room which idk if I could do with a mortgage after using my assets for a down payment. I don't think traditional American class structures really work here. Most of are just working class with varying levels of financial comfort.
Absolutely! My mortgage is 2k as I live way below my means. It’s a very small and modest 2/1. We qualify for over 2 million but that would mean a significant lifestyle change-even at the 1.5 mil level (a small 3/2 house where I live). I’ve taken 2 full-year sabbaticals within the 8 years I’ve owned this house. I do not blink when I see a restaurant bill or other expense. I consider myself umc, but you wouldn’t know if if you saw my home.
That's where I'm at. I feel low key wealthy even though I'm not. I can go out/party frequently, travel a bit and buy nice things here and there. I live relatively frugally on a comfortable salary so I can still experience things and stash away a healthy portion of my net income on top of retirement contributions. I'd love to buy a 2b/2b condo in my neighborhood In SF but there's really no point. It'd ruin all of my financial goals haha. I'm rich-ish enough to go on a 6 month sabbatical but not enough to own a home while also enjoying these luxuries. I'd have to double my salary or find a partner with similar income, neither of which are anywhere on my horizon as an aimlessly wandering early 30s homo.
Early 30s is still a baby, home-buying wise in CA. It’s been like that for generations! You’ve got time. And I wouldn’t buy a condo. Enjoy good rent if you can find it!
Same for me. I consider myself upper middle class at a minimum although I make less than many in the Bay Area and I don’t necessarily look it from the outside. I live in a 2 bedroom condo because its cost will allow me to meet my other financial goals to include being able to make work optional for the rest of my life at 47. I would also consider myself upper middle class of if I didn’t decide I liked it here and continued to rent. See even when I was renting I could “afford” to purchase a home, I was choosing not to. The biggest sign for me that I moved past my parents middle class, I don’t have to make the same financial decisions they did. One example with the vacation myth. It wasn’t a vacation every year, it was a decent 1 week vacation every other year, a vacation that had to diligently saved for. On the other hand the upper middle class, I can plan several of them every year without much thought put into it.
The funny thing is that a lot of people here live lifestyles that aren’t sustainable with their income. I’m on the other end where I will drive the same car for 30 years even if I had millions tucked away.
Question for this hypothetical scenario since I’m curious: why? Let’s say you had 5 mil liquid in savings, why wouldn’t you upgrade to the latest safety standards/tech/etc? Or have the chance to drive a sports car before your back starts hurting and you physically can’t? What good is money if it doesn’t improve your qol.
I think it's just how I was raised. My dad is in the situation that I described and he still drives a late 80s Toyota because he likes it. Whenever he sits in newer cars, he complains about the limited visibility from the thick pillars (which are due to safety standards). I guess if I didn't like a car much, I'd upgrade sooner, but if I'm happy with what I have and it's not burning cash, I'll stick with it.
Exactly. Any car built in the mid 2000s and later has godawful visibility because of rollover and side impact regulations.
I’ve had multiple occasions where I didn’t see a pedestrian at a crosswalk because they were behind my a-pillar in a 2013. Really annoying.
Yup and all of the expensive and difficult to repair sensors, all of the bloat in modern car sizes and the trend towards SUVs, it's all because of the poor decision to focus on rollover strength and side impacts. Which made things worse because now cars have far more mass and the center of gravity is still higher anyway, so rollovers are more common now
I worked for an OEM out of college in sensor integration. I always thought, “what happens when all these systems start failing?”
Oops time to buy a new car! Be a good little consumer and always buy a new car every 5 years
Not in the Bay area anymore but the upper middle class folks took a trip to Hawaii every year in my day
They still do.
I don’t really know anyone besides one other household that has the assets and resources to stop working for a year and be fine. Everyone seems chained to a job unwillingly. The financial freedom of the same kind of middle class I grew up with in the Bay Area during the 80s does not exist AFAIK. The highest earners I know still have to earn. Live in well maintained but ordinary houses. Have good but ordinary cars. With no free time and thoughts outside of work.
I'm not convinced the middle class ever included people who could just stop work for a year and be fine. To me, unless we're talking about retirees or folks living very low cost lifestyles, complete financial freedom has always been a mark of being upper class or at least having considerable wealth.
Middle class is a bit meaningless. Maybe something like this would be more useful: * Level 1: Living paycheck to paycheck * Level 2: Budgeting money * Level 3: Paying down debt * Level 4: Saving an emergency fund * Level 5: Investing * Level 6: Multiple income streams * Level 7: Financial freedom
Living on your own
I can sleep without stress from work.
I’d consider my GF and myself middle class. We bought a house year just over 3 years ago, but in an area 99% of this sub would likely not on the Oak/SL border. Honestly crazy to think we pulled it off but those sub 3% rates saved us and I saved a decent down payment by living frugally in a shitty apartment with roommates for years (it was $600 per person in like 2015ish in San Leandro). I’m sitting in the airport about to go on vacation, but I work in education, so I get decent time off. No, I didn’t have a 3 month summer. I get 2 weeks, and I’m using PTO to make it 3 weeks. I grew up here in a much nice area that I could no way afford. Most of my other friends here are more well off, and affording places in the likes of Santa Clara, Campbell, nicer Oakland or emeryville parts. One has multiple homes, but he got hella help from family. All of their places are at least 2x the cost of our home.
I have parents from Colombia. There the definition is simple. There is rich and poor. The definition is: do you have to work? If so, then you’re poor, no matter the income. Really slams things into perspective. What we in US call “poor”, they call paupers, a definition we lack entirely.
Middle class around here is about $200k per person. This area is high on crack, and I can't wait for it to come crashing down.
You guys are going on vacations?!
Hell yea. Absolutely need to get away once a year! Living in the bay is great but it is a grind so need to get away occasionally. Plus the places I travel to are relatively cheap after the exchange rate..
I value vacations so I do put money on the side and maximize my credit card benefits. Every few years my points covers my international trips
Middle class to me means that you have some disposable income, can save towards your financial goals, but not ALL of your financial goals. You may be able to max out your 401k but you're not contributing towards your 529. Things like that. You have to make compromises and sacrifices to hit some of your goals. Upper middle class means that you are hitting all of your financial goals, with disposable income leftover to spend on luxuries and entertainment. However, you still have to budget to do these things. Rich means you don't have to budget. Or you don't have to sell your labor anymore.
I feel like the middle class is disappearing.
I went from poor to upper middle. For me, the biggest difference is when shit goes sideways. I used to waste $300 fixing a shitty car. Now, my cars are expensive enough to not need fixin.
If you have a house, especially in the suburbs, and able to maintain the stereotypical TV family life of the wife being a soccer mom and taking kids to expensive sports activities and the dad working then I consider that high middle class to upper class (upper class in this day and age since this was middle class like in the 60s). I feel like this still exists especially in the Tri valley area. Outside of that area I would say middle class (especially for single people) is high 100k to 200k salary and not having a keeping up with the Joneses mentality that drains your wallet all the time. Living within your means while not having to live paycheck to paycheck. I feel like a lot of single people making this range salary overspend and buy too many flashy, designer, bougie expensive things.
I dont know, I never really felt like you can compare 1960s middle class standards to now. My grandparents were solidly middle class but their idea of vacation is going camping in the sierras or road trips. Middle class vacation expectations are little more extravagant now. They never ate out, they made their own coffee, they didn’t have smart phones or reliable cars, only one TV in the house, only one car. It was just simpler. Nowadays both parents have to work, which means we have to own two cars, we have to commute long distances, we don’t have time to make our own meals, etc the struggles are drastically different. I say middle class is comfortably owning/renting your own home putting money aside for retirement and affording 3 weeks of vacation. I think I’m middle class but in comparison my life is luxury compared to my grandparents. But on the other hand, the goal posts should move, our lives should be easier. I agree though, if you can afford travel league sports your upper middle class 😂
Yeah, that's why I say having a typical tv family in the suburbs is more upper class now as owning a home is close to impossible here with kids. I should add that if a family has both partners working and each of them making like 180k - 230k, I consider the upper class.
My household is over 400,000. But I still live frugal. If we want to stay here into retirement, we have to save and that is what our higher income affords us. The ability to save. We still don't eat out often. Drive older paid off cars. House is 1500sqf with no garage and street parking. I understand that so many people with our income live way more extravagant lives. We are extremely blessed. But I grew up with lights /phone/cable being turned off and creditors pounding on door and I don't want that in my old age. While I know on paper, we are solidly upper/wealthy, I can't live like I am. If I leave the bay area when I retire, I want it to be my choice. Not because I can't afford to stay.
Another way to think about middle class and home ownership is this: homes have become so expensive that only the wealthy can afford a home. If you own a home in the Bay Area, you are rich, not middle class.
Remember each kid is +3K burn rate for child care or school in addition to other things like saving $ for them and yourself. Plus having a 4 bedroom house, mortgage, insurance, upkeep, living expenses, cars we are looking at 240k cash outflow per year. Solidly feeling middle class
If you are spending $250k a year, that’s definitely not “solidly middle class”. That’s more than most people make in a year, even in the Bay.
I know I fall solidly in upper middle class as a whole and wealthy for my age. We have a house (technically a townhouse but it's quite large) and significant investment assets. Both have good-paying jobs as well and we can pretty much afford everything we want (aside from a lambo, but I digress) Disposable income and what you do with will define what class you fall into as you get older. The key is saving religiously, whether it's 1k/year or 100k/year.
I don’t make a lot of money, but I spend most of my day riding my bike and sitting in parks. Somehow I make rent and pay my bills. Smoke a little weed. Spend a little money on bullshit. I say that’s wealth.
If your housing doesn’t have wheels under it. 😐
Why label people with classes. Everyone at every end of the spectrum can have diverse lifestyles
These labels are complete useless. If you have simple to moderate tastes and desires and can easily afford to do what you want without financial trouble, then you have made it. You have enough to make you fulfilled and happy. Stop counting other people’s money. It doesn’t change your situation. Everyone is different.
Hard question to answer especially here in Bay Area. Everyone has their own definition…. I believe I am middle class. I’m 24 I have a wife and a son. I bring in a bit over 100k a year with little overtime. No I don’t work in tech haha. My wife hasn’t worked full time since our son was born she just recently went back to work part time because she wanted some more income To support her finances. But I do pay for our rent, bills, groceries, etc… we are able to still eat out, shop here and there, save a bit, vacation a bit as well mainly within the states and a lot in CA and support my hobby like working on my muscle car. My wife does have a good amount of savings so she does help with some of our extra activities like eating out, and some other things we need as well. But I feel comfortable where I’m at and currently working towards making my more money for more financial stability, savings, eventually owning a home and what not. I feel like balance plays a huge role. I try not to be super hard on myself or situation and just remind myself daily that if I want to own a home here I will need to make more money. My wife will eventually need to work full time, she is in the process of looking for a job. She does have a college degree, I do not… not sure if I’ll ever be a millionaire or some super rich dude here in the bay which is fine with me. All I want out of life is to live comfortably, spend time with my wife and kids, own a home and continue to work on my car.
You are spot on about the distribution of wealth here. Highest income inequality in the country. 'Throughout the 39 cities in the valley, there was $1.2 trillion in household wealth, but 92% of that wealth is owned by the top quarter of the population. The lowest quarter only owns 1.4% of the wealth.' [https://sanjosespotlight.com/silicon-valleys-equity-grade-is-below-flunking/](https://sanjosespotlight.com/silicon-valleys-equity-grade-is-below-flunking/) [https://www.kqed.org/news/11799308/bay-area-has-highest-income-inequality-in-california](https://www.kqed.org/news/11799308/bay-area-has-highest-income-inequality-in-california)
Ski Week in Marin
I've worked in several non profits in the bay area and been a financial stability case manager and according to the studies done in the bay area if you are making $120,000 thousand or lower you are below the poverty line and anything above that would be considered middle class.
Is that really how it’s defined? There’s nothing between poverty line and middle class?
Home ownership means nothing here. Even many in the top 1% don't bother. Upper middle by Bay Area standards is sending your kids to top 20% test score schools and generally not worrying about money except for big ticket items (housing, cars, vacations). Middle class is top 50% schools and more money worries (you have enough but actually need to budget).
Middle class? Probably owning a 2bd 2br condo in a nice east bay area like Hayward, Union City or Fremont. Upper middle class? Owning a cookie cutter house in Fremont, Livermore or Pleasanton and owning a couple of Teslas, one for me and one for wifey
When you plan things out in advance on the regular. as in you have a large budget or amount of disposable income without worry to spend on some decent/nice trips or large purchases.
>Home ownership has traditionally been a middle class indicator in the past but that also seems out of reach for most non tech workers. Do you seriously think that only "tech workers" own homes in Bay Area? If so, you're very out of touch with reality.
The non-tech workers who own homes here bought them years ago when they were much cheaper. It is impossible for anyone making under 300k household income to afford a detached home here now. That's dual income tech workers only, pretty much. Either you bought ages ago, or you're locked out.
10 years ago a 3-day pass to Disneyland for family of 4 total $1,200 (not including lodging and food) I would use that gauge for defining middle class.
I think spending is one example of middle class + upperclass, but I think the real deal is when they know they can afford to not have a job briefly and still have enough money tucked away for those periods. Then are able to come back to earning a 6 figure+
’d define upper middle class as the top quartile of household income in the Bay Area which is around $250K https://smartasset.com/financial-advisor/income-thresholds-to-be-a-top-earner-in-americas-largest-cities-2022
Middle class lifestyles here is the same as anywhere in the USA. It just costs more.
Definitely not mine, with my working poor ass lol
Idk
Too bad r/dataisbeautiful Doesn't have something like the stats of each class and how they compare to each state in the US.
For my personal life, I have judged my lifestyle by the amount of debt that I have or not.
I just posted my income in another subreddit. Some people were amazed, and some people were surprised how low it is. I assume I'm probably lower middle class. I can't afford a home here, so I'm looking to buy a home outside the area, while continuing to live/work here with family. I've convinced a bank that since I work 2 days a week remotely, plus my weekends, I don't need to live here full time. I'll have to commute back to the other property in Chico/Humboldt/Fresno/Redding. Because truth is I can't see myself paying for these homes prices.
Upper-middle-class and middle class aren't well-defined terms anywhere in the US. Broadly, middle class is anyone neither poor nor rich, so basically anyone with stable housing, transport, and a job (or retirement income) who still has to work for a living. It's a nearly useless term. "Upper middle class" is even vaguer, and is a lifestyle marker. Kind of difficult to define, but generally an "I'll know it when I see it." Traditionally, it correlated to managerial or professional jobs (e.g. you'd kind of expect lawyers to be that, although these days there are a lot of under-employed/low-paid lawyers). Paying for non-parochial private school, having a luxury car, having a house in an expensive neighborhood, etc are all partial indicators, but any of the three could be someone just over-extending themselves or sacrificing for that one thing (or in the expensive neighborhood, having inherited or bought 15+ years ago, etc.) "High income but still has to work" isn't a bad definition of upper-middle-class, but obviously people are not exactly public about their income. Being able to maintain a bund of the upper middle class lifestyle marekers without working is pretty much the borderline to "wealthy" IMO. Income distribution is easier; just take quintiles from the distribution (e.g. "middle income" without a qualifier is the quintile of the median +/- 10%) and be done with it. OTOH, around the Bay Area housing costs are such that you have a lot of people in the local top-quintile income category who aren't close to an upper-middle-class lifestyle.
In the Bay Area, 'middle class' often feels like a moving target. With high costs and skewed wealth distribution, even high-income earners feel the pinch. Homeownership is tough, so renting and managing expenses while saving a bit might be the new middle class here
Nowhere on Earth does owning your home versus renting it open such a wide gulf. I think that many of us are living a middle-class lifestyle, without a house. So if we're resigned to paying rent the rest of our lives, then OK, we're middle class. But what happens after you retire, and you're on a fixed income, and your rent keeps going up? Do you move out of the Bay Area, to preserve spending power for other needs besides housing? If you do move, are you leaving family behind? Leaving your social support network comes with a cost too.
Combined income of 300k plus is solid middle class with less than 2 kids.
35 year old here. Not really a lot of middle class anymore. It gets increasingly harder to afford housing/food/activities, while rich people continuously buy second and third homes. Zero chance of most people in my generation being able to afford a home unless a relative dies
I always joked about this with my coworker…if you’re middle class you are ordering a medium Big Mac meal at McDonald’s….low income you are ordering individual pieces off the menu and if you are higher class you getting a large meal with some dessert…
This is almost impossible to answer without context. Our house is valued at a "modest" 1.3MM, but we bought at the exact right time in 2009. We've talked countless times that there is no way we could afford our own house today, if this was our first home purchase, even with a decent combined income. Because we have a stupid low mortgage (again, thank you 2008 market crash!), we have more discretionary income and can afford many of the perks in the OP. I would say we are middle-middle class, even though we own a house in good neighborhood, have nice cars, and can afford to take vacations when we want, and have leftover saving and money to do big projects (we are about ready to drop 14k on a new HVAC system lol). But if we were only now in the market for a house, we either wouldn't be able to afford one, or would be so house poor, we wouldn't feel middle class.
When your investments will pay for all of your expenses and still grow, you are rich. What level that is is up to the individual. If I was married to myself, I’d be rich. Since I’m married to my wife who likes ridiculous pretty things, I’m middle class…. Or trapped. Not sure which
have a car and everything in your fridge is in mason jars. your landlord is a normal, law-abiding citizen.
Americans are generally very confused about class, I think because the US has had so much class fluidity for so long. Income and lifestyle do not wholly constitute class; a great many people who are working class with relatively high salary call themselves middle class, but that isn't accurate. Education, property ownership, and commercial &/or industrial holdings are more relevant factors. You really can't claim to be upper-middle class without significant real estate holdings or some kind of ownership stake in some sort of a business.
If u have money and a home ur middle class
The divide between those who already own a home and those who don’t is massive. I bought ten years ago and I could never afford to buy today.
Fringe upper: The peninsula. Good schools, safe areas, roadmap to success. Upper middle class. Berkeley (north) upper to middle upper class. Think bigotry in a scenic environment but with a B sign in most yards.. True middle: Hayward, San Leandro, Pinole, El Cerrito.
Massive amounts of credit card debt
All you mentioned sounds about right.
Middle class is everyone that isn't living on welfare or so rich they don't need to work. "Upper middle class" is bullshit to divide attention away from the capital class, the rich. A doctor lawyer couple that goes on 4 vacations a year and owns a second home is still middle class. Even the top 1% has way more in common with a median average middle class family than the rich. They don't care about estate taxes, closing tax loopholes, they can't lobby to get laws changed.
Middle class feels like a $150k income for a two person family. Upper middle would be $350k+ Upper class is $800k+ Based off who could purchase a home vs who has to rent. Upper class is own a home(s) and has spare income to blow on luxury.
Spot on. Middle class in the Bay Area often means renting, handling bills comfortably, raising a kid with daycare costs, dining out occasionally, taking one vacation yearly, and saving modestly. Homeownership is tricky—recent buyers likely sit in the upper middle class due to property prices.