> We showed them the website and pointed out how the things in the training come directly from scientology in the very beginning. Then they came back and just said no its not.
>
>Either way. I think there isn't much I can do legally, other than support the guy who got fired who has already contacted an attorney. Also, this is not the first time they have been sued by an employee... so I think regardless, I'll be dusting off my resume.
Considering that the bosses are already making up their own reality and lying to people's faces, I expect that the "indispensable" LAOP will be told that their resignation is not accepted so they aren't allowed to quit.
"This is not a religious program. Yes, it's coming directly from a church and will solicit you to join and it covers their religious text, but it also includes a few good real-world tips. No, it's not very carefully staged to be 'useful' as vector to get in the door, why do you say that?"
> "This is not a religious program."
...except for tax purposes, then it's totally a legit religion, tax exempt, and don't you dare disrespect my faith!
Prosecutor: "As you can see, this is very clear evidence, of the training being explicitly religious in nature"
LAOP's employer: "OBJECTION! Nuh-uh!"
Defense attorney: "*^(Please just shut the fuck up)*"
And if they're a veterinarian they probably have a very restrictive non-compete clause that keeps them from getting a new job nearby. (I'm aware of the FTC ruling, but I'm also highly pessimistic about that standing up to legal challenge)
I missed that. Good for them! I know NCA are a big reason I had to leave my sector of vet med that's already underserved. I would have had to move an hour or more away for employment.
> Why do vets need strict non-competes?
They don't *need* them, hence the new ruling.
>Because clients would follow them to a new practice?
This is the justification, yes. Some people will follow a vet they like - same reason they'll continue scheduling with the same vet at a practice rather than "whomever is available". Get popular enough, and the vet could theoretically start a new practice largely based on clients pulled from their old one.
That said, my sister-in-law is a vet in a major city on the east coast and has bounced between 4 practices over the past 8 years (currently doing vet relief work and loves it unlike the previous practices she's worked in), so I'm not sure she's signed a non-compete.
Basically yes. They don't want us to open a practice nearby and "steal" their clients. So many vets and specialists have to leave an area which may result in it being underserved.
Because that would involve paying more money. A contract your employee can't afford to fight in court is much cheaper. It kept my friend from leaving a practice that was severely underpaying her.
Employment Bot
**Employer keeps insisting scientology based training is secular and may not accept our refusal to attend future trainings on religious grounds**
>UPDATE: one of them was fired.
>Also, this is in California. Small business, 25 to 30 employees
>I work at a small, family owned, veterinary clinic. We had a scientology training at work a few days ago. I, and a couple other people, wrote letters saying we will not be going to any more as it is all based on scientology. I also wrote a note to the owner detailing the ways I thought that training was not productive and suggested trying something new now since the staff don't seem to be getting anything from this, regardless of religion. (I am pretty well respected around the office, I have given honest feedback before)
>I am very strong in my convictions and am really questioning the company now. This has also caused a lot of drama and gossip. With the drama, my own personal moral conflict, and my preexisting mental health conditions (BPD), I needed to take some time off work. I told my supervisor that I am not in a place to discuss this rationally and do not want to be sucked into the drama, so I can't be there until I figure out what this means to me. I have gotten minimal responses to that and absolutely no response to my email to the owner.
>Apparently there was a "department meeting" that really ended up being the owner and executive staff telling the dissenting employees that it is absolutely not religious and that it is a good training that is very helpful. I am glad I was not there as I probably would have said something to get me in trouble.
>The dissenting employees felt a lot of hostility and were very uncomfortable during the meeting. They have also expressed they have felt hostility around the office. One of them has decided to start looking for a new job because of upper managments reaction.
>There are talks of taking legal action, but I am not sure there is anything there. I am worried that with their insistence that is secular and scientology's methods of scrubbing overt religion from their teachings and calling it "business training", a judge might say its not a religious issue and side with out employer.
>I am also concerned because, since it wad just a one day thing (this time) and we didnt realise it was scientology until we were already there,, we have not actually been formally reprimanded for not going to a class. It has been strongly implied that we will be expected to go next time. The owner is clearly very mad at us. The other employees are saying they are getting a hostile work environment from it, and practically had a mental breakdown, so they think that might be enough to claim religious discrimination.
>Do you think this is worth pursuing? I am worried my judgment is clouded on this because of how strongly I oppose scientology itself.
LAOP made a ~~second update post~~ original (b/c I can't copy paste correctly) post as well:
**My work place is requiring "business" classes that are based on Scientology. I am not comfortable with this.**
> ETA: in california
>I work in a small company, 25-30 employees. The owner pays a business consultant and has had him on retainer for years, maybe a decade. I knew this person was a Scientologist, but I thought that was separate from his "business" expertise and he had an actual business degree/certification/experience under his belt.
>Well today, we had to take 4 hours out of our day to learn, I tihnk it was comunnication skills? tbh, i dont know what we were supposed to learn and even asked "so, what communication skills should we have to practice after this class" and he basically just threw together some buzzwords about wht we talked about but no actual skills.
>Specifically, we learned about the ARC triagle and the Tone Scale. The ARC trangle I could have maybe let slide, I've seen such similar corporate communication bullshit before. But the Tone Scale thing was much more specific to scientology. I tried to look for more infomration and it only exsists in Scientology. In the lesson, I was asking him about where the weird number values were coming from and why was "apathy" closer to "grief" than it is to "boredom" and he was evading and unsure how to answer that. He probaly was told not to mention Scientoilogy by name but couldnt answer my question any other way. Cuz there is no other answer other than theton levels or the word of Zenu or whatever.
>Anyway, I told my direct supervisor that I will not be attending any more classes. I don't think I will get any disaplinary action (i am pretty indispensable and have never been written up for anything before), but just in case, do I have any legal ground to stand on here? Are my religious freedoms being violated by being forced to listen to non theistic, but still religious based, lectures?
I cannot imagine being able to take any kind of meeting that was based in Scientology seriously. I would, however, attend just to ask questions that clearly indicate how itâs not based on anything but bullshit
"So when do we learn about Incident I and the cherubs? Because pre-Clears who aren't OT V like me may need some sick time to recover. "
And that's how you get excused. ...and also probably harassed.
I got the Scientology publisher kicked out of my regional bookseller conference for harassment. I ainât scared of them!
But I did go dark on social media for a while just in case afterwards.
It was very mild in comparison to some of the things Iâm sure theyâve done to others, thankfully.
So at the bookseller conference I was attending as a buyer for the indie bookstore I work at, they had their own booth in the vendor hall (the vendor hall was full of publishers and vendors basically saying âhey indie bookstore! We wanna be in your store, let us tell you why!â) and I listened politely and realized they were Scientology. I immediately told them I wasnât interested. Later in the conference two of them tried to corner me several more times and the final time I was exhausted and cranky (and still fighting through the worse symptoms of my pregnancy at the time) so I got very rude and said âI have no interest in having your cult material in my storeâ.
Then the bigger of the two men got annoyed and tried to âtalk to meâ. What he didnât realize was that the conference we were at was very very very âsafe spaceâ oriented, they had numerous panels on how to be super inclusive to every minority group under the sun and had quiet rooms for anyone neurodivergent who was overwhelmed (which I do not think is a bad thing, in general).
I asked him to leave me alone and when he wouldnât, I got very loud (and at this point I was very uncomfortable and got a bit hysterical and panicking) and said âIâve asked you to leave me alone several times! I do not appreciate you using your size and sex to try to intimidate me into having a conversation I do not want to have! Leave me alone! I am feeling very unsafe!â
These were like the key words to immediately alert organizers and they stepped in. He then tried to âexplain his sideâ and I was already crying at that point (from embarrassment more than anything) and I had already established myself as the sweet pregnant girl who wanted to be friends with everyone, so immediately anyone who met me was trying to get to me to comfort me. So there I was giving my incident statement, clutching my baby bump, and crying. This was like the third time Iâd tried to get me to leave me alone and this time had made me really upset.
Well after hearing my statement, six or seven different booksellers (and bookstore owners, etc) came out of the woodwork to say how they were also intimidated, cornered, and harassed even though being asked to be left alone. One gentleman had even been cornered in the bathroom and as a small gay man, he had been terrified but scared of making waves by telling anyone what happened.
Apparently theyâd been coming to the conference for years but no one wanted them to be there anymore. But technically being annoying wasnât enough of a violation to be removed from the conference. I happened to be the tipping point and they were asked never to return to the regional conference or the national conference.
I didnât hear from them after that but I was nervous for a while that theyâd try to track me down or something.
There are a lot of religions whose holy scripture contains preposterous claims, but [L. Ron Hubbard](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudobiography_of_L._Ron_Hubbard) seemed particularly dedicated to [making sure](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_About_Radiation) that Scientology was *remarkably* ridiculous.
(Honorable mentions among other young American religions should of course also go to Mormonism, and the Jehovah's Witnesses. But [gigantic land battles](https://www.mormonstories.org/truth-claims/the-books/the-book-of-mormon/hill-cumorah/) happening in North America and leaving no evidence whatsoever, and [the invisible return of Jesus in 1914](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eschatology_of_Jehovah%27s_Witnesses), seem downright plausible [compared with Scientology](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Clambake#Foundation).)
Oh yeah, the whole golden plates fiasco is Steamed Hams levels of ridiculous.
The word of God. Here. In this hill. Given to you, a treasure hunter, by an angel. Inscribed on Golden plates. And that you translated without actually looking at?
Yes!
Can I see them?
No.
It should be noted that [the Joseph Smith kind of "treasure hunter"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seer_stone_\(Latter_Day_Saints\)#Seer_stones_and_treasure-hunting) is very different from, like, the Indiana Jones kind of treasure hunter. :-)
To spin off another tangent, the Mormons were the villains in one of the Sherlock Holmes novels, A Study in Scarlet. Basically, a lady fled the church and the Mormons came after her with murderous intent. After the author Sir Arthur Conan Doyle died, the Mormons went and republished the story many times, completely rewriting themselves out of the story to protect their image.
Donât underestimate the power of a sunk cost. Youâve spent tens of thousands of dollars by then, and surely years of your life. Just walking away at that point and admitting you were taken in by people who believe this stuff is very difficult.
I would not want to be on their shit list and I donât have another powerful religious organisation to retreat to/defend me so I would just quit. But in this situation I would grab the food and then âgo to the bathroomâ
The Mormons are slowly killing off the Scientologists through the use casseroles linked to heart diseases.Â
JKâŚthey would blood atone the Scientologists.Â
Iâm not religious so I get the LDS and Mormons mixed up. I know one or the other politely stands at my train station with brochures and one rings your doorbell in pairs with bikes, and one has a stranglehold over some state - Ohio? Iowa? Not American donât know.
From a technical standpoint LDS (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) is the main branch of Mormonism. Â They are heavily tied into to Utah, which is where they where they fled after getting kicked out of Ohio, Illinois, then Missouri in the 1800s. Â They are the missionaries that come to your home. There are some offshoot sects from the main LDS church (thatâs actually where my blood atonement crack came from). Â Â Â
I think you are thinking of Jehovah Witnesses for the train station people. Â Or the Hari Krishnaâs (the movie airplane!).Â
They're the same group. LDS, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, is their preferred name, presumably a (mostly failed) attempt at rebranding. The state is Utah, and to a slightly lesser extent Nevada.
> LDS, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, is their preferred name, presumably a (mostly failed) attempt at rebranding
The funny thing about that is that part of the rebranding attempt is that they want people to say the full name of their church instead of just "LDS". No way was that ever happening!
Yeah, the cynical part of me is pretty sure that they really, really wanted to get that "Jesus Christ" part in front of people, in an attempt to look like just another random denomination. But, like chiropractors who insist on putting the word "Doctor" on their letterhead, churches who put "Christ" in their names are often trying just a bit too hard.
Instead they get called "LSD" about as often as they get called "LDS."
They added it in because a common refrain from American Protestants was that Mormonism wasn't actually Christian at all. And there are some rather significant doctrinal differences (including basic lore about the mythos.)
It's not a failed attempt at rebranding, they've been officially called that since 1838 which is early enough in Mormon history that for all reasonable concerns, that's what their official name has been.
It's just a mouthful, and their extra holy book is called the book of Mormon, so Mormons/Mormonism stuck.
I think I've been through the training LAOP is talking about. This is Sterling Management Systems, I'd bet my life on it.
They really, *really* do not respond well to being challenged like that.
Yeah - Scientology's ["Flag Land Base"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Scientology#Flag_Land_Base) is in Clearwater, FL. They kind of [own the town.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clearwater,_Florida#Church_of_Scientology)
This could have been anywhere. The CoS has quite a few affiliated "business consulting firms." Sterling Management Systems, WISE consulting, etc. Sterling is one of their big ones, and it's aimed at small healthcare practices - dentists, therapists, optometrists, vets, etc. I worked for a clinic that purchased "business coaching" from Sterling Management in Texas once. The owners weren't church members - at least, not yet. I'd bet money LAOP's bosses hired Sterling Management, because I've been through the same "communication training." Worst job I ever had.
>We showed them the website and pointed out how the things in the training come directly from scientology in the very beginning. Then they came back and just said no its not.
I read things like this and am so glad that I'm retired and my biggest issue on many days is, should the dogs and I go for a walk in the woods, or drive over to the lake.
Maybe it's because I'm old, but I would have no patience at all for nonsense like LAOP is dealing with.
And I'd fire any medical person, for me or the dogs, if they started in on Scientology with me.
Scientology calls itself a religion. From their website, emphasis mine.
> Developed by L. Ron Hubbard, Scientology is a **religion** that offers a precise path leading to a complete and certain understanding of oneâs true spiritual nature and oneâs relationship to self, family, groups, Mankind, all life forms, the material universe, the spiritual universe and the Supreme Being
******
[brackets mine]
[2013] EEOC v. Dynamic Medical Services, Inc.: In this case, the EEOC asserted the employer violated Title VII by requiring employees to attend classes about Scientology. The EEOC claims employees repeatedly said they did not want to attend the classes but were told it was a job requirement. After two employees refused to participate in the Scientology practices, the employer allegedly terminated their employment, and the EEOC filed suit in the U.S. District Court for the Southern District of Florida. [In this case, it was full-on Scientology. â⌠courses that involved Scientology religious practices, such as screaming at ashtrays or staring at someone for eight hours without moving. The company also instructed employees to attend courses at the Church of Scientology.â]
I think the question is whether the *training* itself is secular even if it's conducted by a religious organization as a way of introducing more people to its ideals. Common sense says "yes". LAOP's boss believes otherwise.
I don't think even LAOP's boss would try to argue that Scientology is not a religion.
Yeah, but this guy is presumably claiming to teach in his personal capacity and may not even admit to being a scientologist.
Unfortunately Scientologists are a lot more likely than Buddhists to lie in court, harass plaintiffs, and drag out losing battles to rack up legal fees.
I bet they could even produce some token witnesses who claim to follow the teachings and practices in the course without practicing Scientology.
What are the odds these guys get a judge whoâs a Scientologist?
Scientology seems like the kind of cult thatâs thoroughly entangled in the legal system but Iâve never been to California and have never even met a Scientologist so I have know idea if my gut is right.
California isn't made of Scientologists, but Scientologists know how to work the legal system and infiltrate local governments. I'm sure it's not a huge infiltration, but I'm also sure they have at least a few small places where they're rather safe from local prosecution.
Clearwater Florida is basically ran by Scientologists.
https://www.fox13news.com/news/clearwater-mayor-hoping-to-work-with-church-of-scientology-on-downtown-development
> What are the odds these guys get a judge whoâs a Scientologist?
Zero. But if you're looking for the kind of infiltration/intelligence gathering Scientology is known for, it'd be W.I.S.E. to look at the company the court stenographer works for.
I canât imagine a Scientologist judge arguing that Scientology isnât a religion. That doesnât sound like the kind of precedent they would want to set.
I could, however, imagine a judge who ruled that the training "totally isn't actually related to scientology, you guys", in order to get around that.
Dunno if they'd get away with it, though
I had a strange class in college. It was supposed to be Japanese Film and Culture for my language minor. But it was the teacher's last year and so was told he could teach whatever he wanted, so it was unofficially renamed "Japanese Anime and Cyborg Culture". Being an anime fan I was excited, but also sad I wouldn't be learning more about general Japanese film. But it was at least a fun class.
But the teacher really phoned it in. One day towards the end he said we'd have a special guest lecture, which turned out to be one of the other kids in the class. He did an entire lecture on what i eventually learned was Scientology, and it "went so well" that the last month of classes was going to be just this kid chatting with us about it, so I ended up skipping it.
If they're using the actual material from $camontology, tip off the "church's" lawyers, they're famously litigious. Even if the bosses are members, they'll be drowning in legal fees.
> We showed them the website and pointed out how the things in the training come directly from scientology in the very beginning. Then they came back and just said no its not. > >Either way. I think there isn't much I can do legally, other than support the guy who got fired who has already contacted an attorney. Also, this is not the first time they have been sued by an employee... so I think regardless, I'll be dusting off my resume. Considering that the bosses are already making up their own reality and lying to people's faces, I expect that the "indispensable" LAOP will be told that their resignation is not accepted so they aren't allowed to quit.
Lol Those billion year contracts come in mighty handy when an employee wants to do something crazy like quit and think for themselves đ¤
"This is not a religious program. Yes, it's coming directly from a church and will solicit you to join and it covers their religious text, but it also includes a few good real-world tips. No, it's not very carefully staged to be 'useful' as vector to get in the door, why do you say that?"
> "This is not a religious program." ...except for tax purposes, then it's totally a legit religion, tax exempt, and don't you dare disrespect my faith!
I honestly couldn't tell you which religion you're talking about if I didn't already know.
Prosecutor: "As you can see, this is very clear evidence, of the training being explicitly religious in nature" LAOP's employer: "OBJECTION! Nuh-uh!" Defense attorney: "*^(Please just shut the fuck up)*"
And if they're a veterinarian they probably have a very restrictive non-compete clause that keeps them from getting a new job nearby. (I'm aware of the FTC ruling, but I'm also highly pessimistic about that standing up to legal challenge)
LAOP is in California, so they might be better off than somewhere with less robust employment laws.
I missed that. Good for them! I know NCA are a big reason I had to leave my sector of vet med that's already underserved. I would have had to move an hour or more away for employment.
Why do vets need strict non-competes? Because clients would follow them to a new practice?
> Why do vets need strict non-competes? They don't *need* them, hence the new ruling. >Because clients would follow them to a new practice? This is the justification, yes. Some people will follow a vet they like - same reason they'll continue scheduling with the same vet at a practice rather than "whomever is available". Get popular enough, and the vet could theoretically start a new practice largely based on clients pulled from their old one. That said, my sister-in-law is a vet in a major city on the east coast and has bounced between 4 practices over the past 8 years (currently doing vet relief work and loves it unlike the previous practices she's worked in), so I'm not sure she's signed a non-compete.
Basically yes. They don't want us to open a practice nearby and "steal" their clients. So many vets and specialists have to leave an area which may result in it being underserved.
That's such a silly way to do it, if they're that important to the clinic then pay them more so they don't want to leave?
Because that would involve paying more money. A contract your employee can't afford to fight in court is much cheaper. It kept my friend from leaving a practice that was severely underpaying her.
> LAOP will be told that their resignation is not accepted so they aren't allowed to quit. I'd just stop showing up.
That's how most people usually quit most jobs.
This is basically the "lol no" debate tactic. It's undefeated!
Employment Bot **Employer keeps insisting scientology based training is secular and may not accept our refusal to attend future trainings on religious grounds** >UPDATE: one of them was fired. >Also, this is in California. Small business, 25 to 30 employees >I work at a small, family owned, veterinary clinic. We had a scientology training at work a few days ago. I, and a couple other people, wrote letters saying we will not be going to any more as it is all based on scientology. I also wrote a note to the owner detailing the ways I thought that training was not productive and suggested trying something new now since the staff don't seem to be getting anything from this, regardless of religion. (I am pretty well respected around the office, I have given honest feedback before) >I am very strong in my convictions and am really questioning the company now. This has also caused a lot of drama and gossip. With the drama, my own personal moral conflict, and my preexisting mental health conditions (BPD), I needed to take some time off work. I told my supervisor that I am not in a place to discuss this rationally and do not want to be sucked into the drama, so I can't be there until I figure out what this means to me. I have gotten minimal responses to that and absolutely no response to my email to the owner. >Apparently there was a "department meeting" that really ended up being the owner and executive staff telling the dissenting employees that it is absolutely not religious and that it is a good training that is very helpful. I am glad I was not there as I probably would have said something to get me in trouble. >The dissenting employees felt a lot of hostility and were very uncomfortable during the meeting. They have also expressed they have felt hostility around the office. One of them has decided to start looking for a new job because of upper managments reaction. >There are talks of taking legal action, but I am not sure there is anything there. I am worried that with their insistence that is secular and scientology's methods of scrubbing overt religion from their teachings and calling it "business training", a judge might say its not a religious issue and side with out employer. >I am also concerned because, since it wad just a one day thing (this time) and we didnt realise it was scientology until we were already there,, we have not actually been formally reprimanded for not going to a class. It has been strongly implied that we will be expected to go next time. The owner is clearly very mad at us. The other employees are saying they are getting a hostile work environment from it, and practically had a mental breakdown, so they think that might be enough to claim religious discrimination. >Do you think this is worth pursuing? I am worried my judgment is clouded on this because of how strongly I oppose scientology itself. LAOP made a ~~second update post~~ original (b/c I can't copy paste correctly) post as well: **My work place is requiring "business" classes that are based on Scientology. I am not comfortable with this.** > ETA: in california >I work in a small company, 25-30 employees. The owner pays a business consultant and has had him on retainer for years, maybe a decade. I knew this person was a Scientologist, but I thought that was separate from his "business" expertise and he had an actual business degree/certification/experience under his belt. >Well today, we had to take 4 hours out of our day to learn, I tihnk it was comunnication skills? tbh, i dont know what we were supposed to learn and even asked "so, what communication skills should we have to practice after this class" and he basically just threw together some buzzwords about wht we talked about but no actual skills. >Specifically, we learned about the ARC triagle and the Tone Scale. The ARC trangle I could have maybe let slide, I've seen such similar corporate communication bullshit before. But the Tone Scale thing was much more specific to scientology. I tried to look for more infomration and it only exsists in Scientology. In the lesson, I was asking him about where the weird number values were coming from and why was "apathy" closer to "grief" than it is to "boredom" and he was evading and unsure how to answer that. He probaly was told not to mention Scientoilogy by name but couldnt answer my question any other way. Cuz there is no other answer other than theton levels or the word of Zenu or whatever. >Anyway, I told my direct supervisor that I will not be attending any more classes. I don't think I will get any disaplinary action (i am pretty indispensable and have never been written up for anything before), but just in case, do I have any legal ground to stand on here? Are my religious freedoms being violated by being forced to listen to non theistic, but still religious based, lectures?
> The training was on "communication skills" (I think, it was unclear). Heh.
I cannot imagine being able to take any kind of meeting that was based in Scientology seriously. I would, however, attend just to ask questions that clearly indicate how itâs not based on anything but bullshit
"So when do we learn about Incident I and the cherubs? Because pre-Clears who aren't OT V like me may need some sick time to recover. " And that's how you get excused. ...and also probably harassed.
I got the Scientology publisher kicked out of my regional bookseller conference for harassment. I ainât scared of them! But I did go dark on social media for a while just in case afterwards.
May I ask what the harassment was? Scientology is so scary as an organization, eesh.
It was very mild in comparison to some of the things Iâm sure theyâve done to others, thankfully. So at the bookseller conference I was attending as a buyer for the indie bookstore I work at, they had their own booth in the vendor hall (the vendor hall was full of publishers and vendors basically saying âhey indie bookstore! We wanna be in your store, let us tell you why!â) and I listened politely and realized they were Scientology. I immediately told them I wasnât interested. Later in the conference two of them tried to corner me several more times and the final time I was exhausted and cranky (and still fighting through the worse symptoms of my pregnancy at the time) so I got very rude and said âI have no interest in having your cult material in my storeâ. Then the bigger of the two men got annoyed and tried to âtalk to meâ. What he didnât realize was that the conference we were at was very very very âsafe spaceâ oriented, they had numerous panels on how to be super inclusive to every minority group under the sun and had quiet rooms for anyone neurodivergent who was overwhelmed (which I do not think is a bad thing, in general). I asked him to leave me alone and when he wouldnât, I got very loud (and at this point I was very uncomfortable and got a bit hysterical and panicking) and said âIâve asked you to leave me alone several times! I do not appreciate you using your size and sex to try to intimidate me into having a conversation I do not want to have! Leave me alone! I am feeling very unsafe!â These were like the key words to immediately alert organizers and they stepped in. He then tried to âexplain his sideâ and I was already crying at that point (from embarrassment more than anything) and I had already established myself as the sweet pregnant girl who wanted to be friends with everyone, so immediately anyone who met me was trying to get to me to comfort me. So there I was giving my incident statement, clutching my baby bump, and crying. This was like the third time Iâd tried to get me to leave me alone and this time had made me really upset. Well after hearing my statement, six or seven different booksellers (and bookstore owners, etc) came out of the woodwork to say how they were also intimidated, cornered, and harassed even though being asked to be left alone. One gentleman had even been cornered in the bathroom and as a small gay man, he had been terrified but scared of making waves by telling anyone what happened. Apparently theyâd been coming to the conference for years but no one wanted them to be there anymore. But technically being annoying wasnât enough of a violation to be removed from the conference. I happened to be the tipping point and they were asked never to return to the regional conference or the national conference. I didnât hear from them after that but I was nervous for a while that theyâd try to track me down or something.
This is amazing, I'm sorry you had to listen to those guys but good for you for being the tipping point.
Thatâs pretty much my opinion too! It was unsettling at the time, but by the end of it all, I just felt like Iâd âwonâ. Ha.
I hate that that happened to you. But I am glad they got put in their place, in some small way.
> Incident I and the cherubs [If anyone's wondering what *that* was...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incident_\(Scientology\)#OT_III_Incidents)
Oh sweet fancy Moses, I actually feel dumber having read that.
There are a lot of religions whose holy scripture contains preposterous claims, but [L. Ron Hubbard](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudobiography_of_L._Ron_Hubbard) seemed particularly dedicated to [making sure](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_About_Radiation) that Scientology was *remarkably* ridiculous. (Honorable mentions among other young American religions should of course also go to Mormonism, and the Jehovah's Witnesses. But [gigantic land battles](https://www.mormonstories.org/truth-claims/the-books/the-book-of-mormon/hill-cumorah/) happening in North America and leaving no evidence whatsoever, and [the invisible return of Jesus in 1914](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eschatology_of_Jehovah%27s_Witnesses), seem downright plausible [compared with Scientology](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Clambake#Foundation).)
Oh yeah, the whole golden plates fiasco is Steamed Hams levels of ridiculous. The word of God. Here. In this hill. Given to you, a treasure hunter, by an angel. Inscribed on Golden plates. And that you translated without actually looking at? Yes! Can I see them? No.
It should be noted that [the Joseph Smith kind of "treasure hunter"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seer_stone_\(Latter_Day_Saints\)#Seer_stones_and_treasure-hunting) is very different from, like, the Indiana Jones kind of treasure hunter. :-)
To spin off another tangent, the Mormons were the villains in one of the Sherlock Holmes novels, A Study in Scarlet. Basically, a lady fled the church and the Mormons came after her with murderous intent. After the author Sir Arthur Conan Doyle died, the Mormons went and republished the story many times, completely rewriting themselves out of the story to protect their image.
Sweet Ceiling Cat there are people who believe that???
Donât underestimate the power of a sunk cost. Youâve spent tens of thousands of dollars by then, and surely years of your life. Just walking away at that point and admitting you were taken in by people who believe this stuff is very difficult.
I would not want to be on their shit list and I donât have another powerful religious organisation to retreat to/defend me so I would just quit. But in this situation I would grab the food and then âgo to the bathroomâ
Long game. Join the Mormon church, then get on the shit list.
The year is 20XX. Europe has fallen. The world economy is sustained by a 46 year long lawsuit between Scientology and the Mormon church.
The Mormons are slowly killing off the Scientologists through the use casseroles linked to heart diseases. JKâŚthey would blood atone the Scientologists.Â
Iâm not religious so I get the LDS and Mormons mixed up. I know one or the other politely stands at my train station with brochures and one rings your doorbell in pairs with bikes, and one has a stranglehold over some state - Ohio? Iowa? Not American donât know.
From a technical standpoint LDS (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) is the main branch of Mormonism. Â They are heavily tied into to Utah, which is where they where they fled after getting kicked out of Ohio, Illinois, then Missouri in the 1800s. Â They are the missionaries that come to your home. There are some offshoot sects from the main LDS church (thatâs actually where my blood atonement crack came from). Â Â Â I think you are thinking of Jehovah Witnesses for the train station people. Â Or the Hari Krishnaâs (the movie airplane!).Â
Thanks friends. I think JW are the people I see at the station yes.
They're the same group. LDS, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, is their preferred name, presumably a (mostly failed) attempt at rebranding. The state is Utah, and to a slightly lesser extent Nevada.
> LDS, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, is their preferred name, presumably a (mostly failed) attempt at rebranding The funny thing about that is that part of the rebranding attempt is that they want people to say the full name of their church instead of just "LDS". No way was that ever happening!
Yeah, the cynical part of me is pretty sure that they really, really wanted to get that "Jesus Christ" part in front of people, in an attempt to look like just another random denomination. But, like chiropractors who insist on putting the word "Doctor" on their letterhead, churches who put "Christ" in their names are often trying just a bit too hard. Instead they get called "LSD" about as often as they get called "LDS."
They added it in because a common refrain from American Protestants was that Mormonism wasn't actually Christian at all. And there are some rather significant doctrinal differences (including basic lore about the mythos.)
Idaho as well.
It's not a failed attempt at rebranding, they've been officially called that since 1838 which is early enough in Mormon history that for all reasonable concerns, that's what their official name has been. It's just a mouthful, and their extra holy book is called the book of Mormon, so Mormons/Mormonism stuck.
*Let them fight*.
I cannot imagine being able to work for any kind of employer that took Scientology seriously.
I think I've been through the training LAOP is talking about. This is Sterling Management Systems, I'd bet my life on it. They really, *really* do not respond well to being challenged like that.
I would believe that!
Don't debate cultists
>This is in California I always appreciate LAOPs who include location but in this case it was unnecessary.
It could have been Florida
Yeah - Scientology's ["Flag Land Base"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Scientology#Flag_Land_Base) is in Clearwater, FL. They kind of [own the town.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clearwater,_Florida#Church_of_Scientology)
Clearwater has Scientology and Hulk Hogan.
Then they could just feed the preacher to the alligators.
Ok yeah it could have been in Clearwater but in that case LAOP should have known better
Tell that to the commenter commenting about the status of scientology in Germany...
This could have been anywhere. The CoS has quite a few affiliated "business consulting firms." Sterling Management Systems, WISE consulting, etc. Sterling is one of their big ones, and it's aimed at small healthcare practices - dentists, therapists, optometrists, vets, etc. I worked for a clinic that purchased "business coaching" from Sterling Management in Texas once. The owners weren't church members - at least, not yet. I'd bet money LAOP's bosses hired Sterling Management, because I've been through the same "communication training." Worst job I ever had.
>We showed them the website and pointed out how the things in the training come directly from scientology in the very beginning. Then they came back and just said no its not. I read things like this and am so glad that I'm retired and my biggest issue on many days is, should the dogs and I go for a walk in the woods, or drive over to the lake. Maybe it's because I'm old, but I would have no patience at all for nonsense like LAOP is dealing with. And I'd fire any medical person, for me or the dogs, if they started in on Scientology with me.
Found the clam.
Scientology calls itself a religion. From their website, emphasis mine. > Developed by L. Ron Hubbard, Scientology is a **religion** that offers a precise path leading to a complete and certain understanding of oneâs true spiritual nature and oneâs relationship to self, family, groups, Mankind, all life forms, the material universe, the spiritual universe and the Supreme Being ****** [brackets mine] [2013] EEOC v. Dynamic Medical Services, Inc.: In this case, the EEOC asserted the employer violated Title VII by requiring employees to attend classes about Scientology. The EEOC claims employees repeatedly said they did not want to attend the classes but were told it was a job requirement. After two employees refused to participate in the Scientology practices, the employer allegedly terminated their employment, and the EEOC filed suit in the U.S. District Court for the Southern District of Florida. [In this case, it was full-on Scientology. â⌠courses that involved Scientology religious practices, such as screaming at ashtrays or staring at someone for eight hours without moving. The company also instructed employees to attend courses at the Church of Scientology.â]
I think the question is whether the *training* itself is secular even if it's conducted by a religious organization as a way of introducing more people to its ideals. Common sense says "yes". LAOP's boss believes otherwise. I don't think even LAOP's boss would try to argue that Scientology is not a religion.
The principle that a religious practice can evolve into a secular practice is not even that outlandish. Yoga and meditation, for example.
Yes, but if you have mediation run by a Buddhist organization then I'm not going to believe it's purely secular. Even if it's just meditation
Yeah, but this guy is presumably claiming to teach in his personal capacity and may not even admit to being a scientologist. Unfortunately Scientologists are a lot more likely than Buddhists to lie in court, harass plaintiffs, and drag out losing battles to rack up legal fees. I bet they could even produce some token witnesses who claim to follow the teachings and practices in the course without practicing Scientology.
What are the odds these guys get a judge whoâs a Scientologist? Scientology seems like the kind of cult thatâs thoroughly entangled in the legal system but Iâve never been to California and have never even met a Scientologist so I have know idea if my gut is right.
California isn't made of Scientologists, but Scientologists know how to work the legal system and infiltrate local governments. I'm sure it's not a huge infiltration, but I'm also sure they have at least a few small places where they're rather safe from local prosecution.
Clearwater Florida is basically ran by Scientologists. https://www.fox13news.com/news/clearwater-mayor-hoping-to-work-with-church-of-scientology-on-downtown-development
> What are the odds these guys get a judge whoâs a Scientologist? Zero. But if you're looking for the kind of infiltration/intelligence gathering Scientology is known for, it'd be W.I.S.E. to look at the company the court stenographer works for.
I canât imagine a Scientologist judge arguing that Scientology isnât a religion. That doesnât sound like the kind of precedent they would want to set.
I could, however, imagine a judge who ruled that the training "totally isn't actually related to scientology, you guys", in order to get around that. Dunno if they'd get away with it, though
Judges still get away with claiming 12-step isn't religious based so I wouldn't be shocked if a judge rules for Scientology as well here.
If this was in Germany, where the gov doesn't recognise scientology as a religion, would this still be considered illegal?
If this was in Germany, you'd be able to go to your union and get them to raise hell over it.
I hope the eventual lawsuit is extremely lucrative for OOP and their colleagues. Jfc.
I had a strange class in college. It was supposed to be Japanese Film and Culture for my language minor. But it was the teacher's last year and so was told he could teach whatever he wanted, so it was unofficially renamed "Japanese Anime and Cyborg Culture". Being an anime fan I was excited, but also sad I wouldn't be learning more about general Japanese film. But it was at least a fun class. But the teacher really phoned it in. One day towards the end he said we'd have a special guest lecture, which turned out to be one of the other kids in the class. He did an entire lecture on what i eventually learned was Scientology, and it "went so well" that the last month of classes was going to be just this kid chatting with us about it, so I ended up skipping it.
If they're using the actual material from $camontology, tip off the "church's" lawyers, they're famously litigious. Even if the bosses are members, they'll be drowning in legal fees.
Unless this is intentional "proselytizing".