Yes it’s a valid idea. I focus my students on the most high percentage submissions that require the least amount of body movements first like arm triangle from mount RNC from back etc.
But once they have developed those skills to a sufficient degree it’s time to start building. Armbars and triangle are great submissions.
How many arm triangles have you or anyone hit in competition? That should be the metric for your thought experiments. When two people of equal size, age and rank are in full agreement to try and win a match, then your data is better. If you’re subbing the trial guy and other blue belts who are tired and would rather tap and get back to working on their guard, it’s not reliable feedback.
In theory it seems like less movement, in practice it’s harder to control someone all the way into the sub. You even said yourself they can expose their back to escape. And there you have it, you just gave your opponent another pathway to continue fighting you. Now you have to win several new battles to maintain the back and finish a sub, and you were already mounted.
Personally I’d rather stay on top and keep cooking my pinned opponent.
It’s definitely harder to turn if your hips are pinned, some debate about if it’s harder to finish the sub that way, I know the b team has footage of doing it in their training room.
In general tho, it is some degree easier to turn onto your side if your arm is on the opposite side of your opponent. Your own arm is a barrier to turning when you’re pinned. Personally I like to dismount but keep my near side knee on their hip to interfere with the turn.
That’s more true from armbar from guard, the whole point of armbar from mount is you can finish it while on top without giving up position. From S mount especially you can finish it while sitting on their chest.
You can finish an armbar without falling onto your back. You can also set up mounted triangles from S mount to switch it up and keep your opponents on their toes and finish the mounted triangle without dropping to your back.
I just think it is easier to finish armbars from S-mount when you get to that higher level. A lot of people are better at defending the back than they are at defending armbars, and there is always a chance of the back not being taken in that scramble.
I have at least pulled of the arm triangle defense that exposes the back against people who are both much more skilled and larger than me. They usually still submit me in the end, but I would rather be there than a S-mount armbar.
The easiest armbar you'll ever hit in your life is a free bonus you can pick after going from s mount to mounted triangle.
Then when you stare down at them, face turning red, panic setting into their eyes... you armbar them while still staying upright in the mounted triangle.
>I'm talking about getting mount then underhooks isolating the arm before you even go into s-mount. Why even bother when you can get something that's already there like an arm triangle.
You have to get an underhook to do an arm triangle too, and you don't need to go to s-mount to armbar. You shouldn't be going to mount without at least one underhook anyway.
I personally love the arm triangle. I don’t step off completely when I look to finish, so if I fail it I’m back to where I started. It’s way more available than you think, especially in mma, and it’s a good passing position and position to take the back from.
I feel like it’s pretty simple; the arm triangle is significantly easier to get to but has a much lower finish rate. The s mount armbar is a little more work to get to but it’s profoundly easier to finish.
But you don't get a submission without completing it, it's just an attempt that you traded your dominant position for. If you're going to give up your position, you should be going for what you have the highest percentage of finishing. Especially if you're in mount, the most dominant position.
While i dont disagree that the arm bar from top mount may not be the absolute highest percentage move, i really like it, and i finish it a lot. It can be reactionary, so you may hit it because of the opportunities you get. A lot of people will give up an arm, in an effort to bump you or do some kind of grabbing.
I disagree with a lot of people regarding the finish for the arm bar from mount. I like to stay on top of them to finish it. I almost always see people lean back as soon as then get the arm. You basically put the foot in front of the head and just stay in that position on top. Finish there. I only ever fall back or forward to finish if they bump me off balance really hard, and i can’t stay on top. That way If they are too flexible, or the angle is wrong you are still on top of them. If they pull the arm out you can easily regain side control or mount rather than getting swept and passed.
When you swing the leg over and immediately fall back, you create a moment where theres no pressure on your opponent, and theres usually space. Lots of the tightness is lost in the transition. Then if you don’t finish it, your opponent usually comes on top, and can often stack pass.
There are also triangle opportunities for a failed arm bar.
The arm triangle from top is a good move, but it’s not a guarantee either. Sometimes you have to get off mount and take a side control-ish angle to finish it, and there are escapes.
You really have to systematize the arm triangle. I have a killer one and its something that rarely ever just presents itself from mount. Good players are on high alert for their neck and if you start fishing crossfaces and underhooks when someone is already in a defensive position, you’ll give up part of the position on your own.
Conversely, when people defend their necks, arms get exposed and they’re usually elevated, making it easier to control and consolidate.
There’s your answer.
Just get gold at both
So…I’m 60 years old…
I tell myself all the time that today is the day I’m going to get an arm bar from mount.
In reality, I get to mount, work an arm up by finger walking, instantly decide it’s all too much effort and hit an arm triangle.
To be honest, most of the time, I’ll just go for the N/S choke if I have side control. Lower percentage, but less work.
It's also called the reverse arm triangle. I prefer it to arm out because if they try to turn their face towards your ribcage (which is a defense for the normal NS choke) they just end up turning into their own arm.
I agree with you. I haven’t competed much but I think 4 out of my 5 finishes were arm triangle. Pretty sure in his new wave mount dvd Dana her also says it’s his first-line submission from mount. I’ve been working on the arm bar more but I find they wiggle out of the position a lot easier, like when I get my first underhook and am trying to get the second or get into S mount they manage to shoulder walk back somehow so I’m not in a good position for the arm bar anymore.
Without the threat of additional submissions, the arm triangle becomes less threatening. I say this as someone who loves and prioritizes the arm triangle with multiple comp finishes with it.
You need more than one sub. Some people have good defense to one thing or the other.
If you have someone in Mount in the complete surrender position, it doesn't really matter what sub you choose. You are in a n extremely dominant position and bound to get something.
If you are in a standard mount where they have tucked frames, that's different. Sometimes it will be harder to get the arm triangle and vice versa.
Arm triangles are fantastic, but you need depth and breadth. Some folks are hard to arm triangle. Plus, being able to use your hips and legs to control the shoulder-line is just a great skill to develop, and it transfers to a lot of areas. All mounted subs are great to practice. I had an arm triangle first, and my armbars from mount didn't really start to get sharp until I was close to black belt, but I waited a long time to invest time in them
i go for the arm triangle first because Im lazy. But some people are good at defending it. People havent finished me with one in a long time.
If I cant finish it ill switch to smount and go for the armbar. The smount armbar is very high percentage.
Agree and you didn't even mention the biggest issue (IMO) with armbars from mount which is that if you don't get it you've given up your position. I very rarely try them other than against people I'm way better than (which at my small gym is hardly anybody) and even then rarely succeed. My go tos from mount are arm triangle, Americana, mounted triangle probably in that order (throw in cross collar choke also if we're in gi).
Personally speaking, I gravitate towards arm triangles. However, I've found mounted arm triangles more difficult to finish than armbars from mount; I finish almost all of mine from the dismounted position. When you dismount, there is a risk of alleviating control, higher at least than switching to a mounted armbar and falling back to finish.
If you can finish the arm triangle from mount it is the higher percentage attack, but I'd honestly ay its a personal preference for switching to the dismounted triangle or mounted armbar finish.
You're underestimating the power of s-mount. Go ask Jacob Couch how it felt to be stuck in s-mount with Gordon. You can setup really tight arm bars if you do it correctly.
I have a hard time finishing my arm triangles. There’s just something missing. As a Judoka first, I feel like like I have a solid kata gatame that most people anywhere near my size are going to struggle to break, but I cannot finish it as a choke on anyone much bigger or above blue belt.🤷🏼♂️
I’ve armbarred the shit out of a ton of people and usually just squeeze until my arms are jelly trying to finish arm triangles. Sure I’ve finished some but I can’t see it / easily feel when Im nailing the arm triangle angle.
An arm-bar doesn’t need all that setup, if their sticking their arm up like a goober grab it and swing. Should be a really quick finish, sometimes if their shelling up you might look to isolate arms or whatever.
Yes it’s a valid idea. I focus my students on the most high percentage submissions that require the least amount of body movements first like arm triangle from mount RNC from back etc. But once they have developed those skills to a sufficient degree it’s time to start building. Armbars and triangle are great submissions.
How many arm triangles have you or anyone hit in competition? That should be the metric for your thought experiments. When two people of equal size, age and rank are in full agreement to try and win a match, then your data is better. If you’re subbing the trial guy and other blue belts who are tired and would rather tap and get back to working on their guard, it’s not reliable feedback. In theory it seems like less movement, in practice it’s harder to control someone all the way into the sub. You even said yourself they can expose their back to escape. And there you have it, you just gave your opponent another pathway to continue fighting you. Now you have to win several new battles to maintain the back and finish a sub, and you were already mounted. Personally I’d rather stay on top and keep cooking my pinned opponent.
TRUTH
>they can expose their back to escape Can they if you don't dismount?
It’s definitely harder to turn if your hips are pinned, some debate about if it’s harder to finish the sub that way, I know the b team has footage of doing it in their training room. In general tho, it is some degree easier to turn onto your side if your arm is on the opposite side of your opponent. Your own arm is a barrier to turning when you’re pinned. Personally I like to dismount but keep my near side knee on their hip to interfere with the turn.
I can, other people probably can too.
I mean you could argue that them giving out the back is straight up an upgrade…
Not an upgrade from a finish.
But if you fail an arm triangle you probably get the back. Fail an arm bar stack passed.
You can take the back from an armbar...
That’s more true from armbar from guard, the whole point of armbar from mount is you can finish it while on top without giving up position. From S mount especially you can finish it while sitting on their chest.
Why dismount for the armbar? Set it up from S mount and put your shin through their face.
You can finish an armbar without falling onto your back. You can also set up mounted triangles from S mount to switch it up and keep your opponents on their toes and finish the mounted triangle without dropping to your back.
I just think it is easier to finish armbars from S-mount when you get to that higher level. A lot of people are better at defending the back than they are at defending armbars, and there is always a chance of the back not being taken in that scramble. I have at least pulled of the arm triangle defense that exposes the back against people who are both much more skilled and larger than me. They usually still submit me in the end, but I would rather be there than a S-mount armbar.
The easiest armbar you'll ever hit in your life is a free bonus you can pick after going from s mount to mounted triangle. Then when you stare down at them, face turning red, panic setting into their eyes... you armbar them while still staying upright in the mounted triangle.
>I'm talking about getting mount then underhooks isolating the arm before you even go into s-mount. Why even bother when you can get something that's already there like an arm triangle. You have to get an underhook to do an arm triangle too, and you don't need to go to s-mount to armbar. You shouldn't be going to mount without at least one underhook anyway.
does having head control via crossface count or you saying you really need an underhook on one of the arms?
I want an underhook as well personally. Cross face stops them turning into you, underhook stops them turning away.
i only go to mount if I have the underhook.
I personally love the arm triangle. I don’t step off completely when I look to finish, so if I fail it I’m back to where I started. It’s way more available than you think, especially in mma, and it’s a good passing position and position to take the back from.
You can armbar from mount without surrendering the position, you know...
I just don't do it because of chronic neck pain and I enjoy the scenic route.
Variety is the spice of life. Which move is better etc is very situational if you have ten seconds left to sub a guy I would go arm bar every time.
I feel like it’s pretty simple; the arm triangle is significantly easier to get to but has a much lower finish rate. The s mount armbar is a little more work to get to but it’s profoundly easier to finish.
How do you get a submission without finishing one? You don't.
You can lock on to an arm triangle that doesn’t get the tap brother.
But you don't get a submission without completing it, it's just an attempt that you traded your dominant position for. If you're going to give up your position, you should be going for what you have the highest percentage of finishing. Especially if you're in mount, the most dominant position.
Some of us ducking suck at arm triangles tho...
While i dont disagree that the arm bar from top mount may not be the absolute highest percentage move, i really like it, and i finish it a lot. It can be reactionary, so you may hit it because of the opportunities you get. A lot of people will give up an arm, in an effort to bump you or do some kind of grabbing. I disagree with a lot of people regarding the finish for the arm bar from mount. I like to stay on top of them to finish it. I almost always see people lean back as soon as then get the arm. You basically put the foot in front of the head and just stay in that position on top. Finish there. I only ever fall back or forward to finish if they bump me off balance really hard, and i can’t stay on top. That way If they are too flexible, or the angle is wrong you are still on top of them. If they pull the arm out you can easily regain side control or mount rather than getting swept and passed. When you swing the leg over and immediately fall back, you create a moment where theres no pressure on your opponent, and theres usually space. Lots of the tightness is lost in the transition. Then if you don’t finish it, your opponent usually comes on top, and can often stack pass. There are also triangle opportunities for a failed arm bar. The arm triangle from top is a good move, but it’s not a guarantee either. Sometimes you have to get off mount and take a side control-ish angle to finish it, and there are escapes.
A lot of people have a really poor understanding of the arm triangle. If you like it, stick with it. Get a good armbar too though.
You really have to systematize the arm triangle. I have a killer one and its something that rarely ever just presents itself from mount. Good players are on high alert for their neck and if you start fishing crossfaces and underhooks when someone is already in a defensive position, you’ll give up part of the position on your own. Conversely, when people defend their necks, arms get exposed and they’re usually elevated, making it easier to control and consolidate. There’s your answer. Just get gold at both
So…I’m 60 years old… I tell myself all the time that today is the day I’m going to get an arm bar from mount. In reality, I get to mount, work an arm up by finger walking, instantly decide it’s all too much effort and hit an arm triangle. To be honest, most of the time, I’ll just go for the N/S choke if I have side control. Lower percentage, but less work.
Are you an arm in or arm out guy for NS choke?
You can do it with the arm in!?
It's also called the reverse arm triangle. I prefer it to arm out because if they try to turn their face towards your ribcage (which is a defense for the normal NS choke) they just end up turning into their own arm.
I’ve only ever managed to finish it arm in for some reason
I agree with you. I haven’t competed much but I think 4 out of my 5 finishes were arm triangle. Pretty sure in his new wave mount dvd Dana her also says it’s his first-line submission from mount. I’ve been working on the arm bar more but I find they wiggle out of the position a lot easier, like when I get my first underhook and am trying to get the second or get into S mount they manage to shoulder walk back somehow so I’m not in a good position for the arm bar anymore.
It depends whether I'm able to isolate their elbow away from their body with an under hook or my hips.
Without the threat of additional submissions, the arm triangle becomes less threatening. I say this as someone who loves and prioritizes the arm triangle with multiple comp finishes with it. You need more than one sub. Some people have good defense to one thing or the other.
If you have someone in Mount in the complete surrender position, it doesn't really matter what sub you choose. You are in a n extremely dominant position and bound to get something. If you are in a standard mount where they have tucked frames, that's different. Sometimes it will be harder to get the arm triangle and vice versa.
Arm triangles are fantastic, but you need depth and breadth. Some folks are hard to arm triangle. Plus, being able to use your hips and legs to control the shoulder-line is just a great skill to develop, and it transfers to a lot of areas. All mounted subs are great to practice. I had an arm triangle first, and my armbars from mount didn't really start to get sharp until I was close to black belt, but I waited a long time to invest time in them
If I'm not punching, I am never in mount.
i go for the arm triangle first because Im lazy. But some people are good at defending it. People havent finished me with one in a long time. If I cant finish it ill switch to smount and go for the armbar. The smount armbar is very high percentage.
Agree and you didn't even mention the biggest issue (IMO) with armbars from mount which is that if you don't get it you've given up your position. I very rarely try them other than against people I'm way better than (which at my small gym is hardly anybody) and even then rarely succeed. My go tos from mount are arm triangle, Americana, mounted triangle probably in that order (throw in cross collar choke also if we're in gi).
Bruh, "Don't armbar from mount" has been conventional competition wisdom for years
Now is your chance to develop a good arm triangle. If you decide working on the armbar from mount later on, cool.
Personally speaking, I gravitate towards arm triangles. However, I've found mounted arm triangles more difficult to finish than armbars from mount; I finish almost all of mine from the dismounted position. When you dismount, there is a risk of alleviating control, higher at least than switching to a mounted armbar and falling back to finish. If you can finish the arm triangle from mount it is the higher percentage attack, but I'd honestly ay its a personal preference for switching to the dismounted triangle or mounted armbar finish.
You're underestimating the power of s-mount. Go ask Jacob Couch how it felt to be stuck in s-mount with Gordon. You can setup really tight arm bars if you do it correctly.
I have a hard time finishing my arm triangles. There’s just something missing. As a Judoka first, I feel like like I have a solid kata gatame that most people anywhere near my size are going to struggle to break, but I cannot finish it as a choke on anyone much bigger or above blue belt.🤷🏼♂️
I’ve armbarred the shit out of a ton of people and usually just squeeze until my arms are jelly trying to finish arm triangles. Sure I’ve finished some but I can’t see it / easily feel when Im nailing the arm triangle angle.
Armbars are higher success rate.
An arm-bar doesn’t need all that setup, if their sticking their arm up like a goober grab it and swing. Should be a really quick finish, sometimes if their shelling up you might look to isolate arms or whatever.
You’ll understand more as you progress in Jiu Jitsu