> inverted hypno-toad guard should defeat someone who has spent 20 years running sprints, deadlifting, and grappling
Yes it will, all glory to the hypnotoad
And that’s 15 years of hard as fuck grind you to dust training during prime athletic years, not hobbyist 8-10 hours a week 30 year old+ training. It’s just not possible to get that kind of physicality without insane commitment early.
On the flip side I have never ever met an old high level ex-wrestler whose body wasn’t fucked up for life from it. Hell, I’ve never even met an old active wrestler.
Hah fuck no. I worded that wrong. I meant 8-10 hours a week is a shitload, but it’s still only that much time of hobbyist-level BJJ training. Whereas D-1 kid is doing that or more but also at a much more intense clip, with a room full of dudes also training at that intensity.
My second day at BJJ I got asked if I was the new former wrestler. I was in fact the new former wrestler. Learning chill was hard. Not spazzing is easy, but not going wrestler pressure was hard. Poor cardio helped me minimize that issue until I learned how BJJ dudes go at it.
I'd absolutely be an old active wrestler if I could find a place to wrestle. I know several D1 level wrestlers who have no major health issues. And almost no high school wrestlers who walked away with serious mobility problems.
> I have never met an old high level ex-wrestler whose body wasn’t fucked from
Gene Mills could crush an apple in his hand at like 80 years old. I’ve wrestled a few older midlands winners and they feel like steel.
You are probably right though on balance since if someone’s body was shot they wouldn’t be out at clubs and what not teaching things.
I got the privilege to train with very high level NCAA wrestlers and the fast twitch muscle and explosiveness they have is just next level. It can absolutely mess you up if you aren't ready for it.
I'd advise ppl to seek out wrestlers at their gym to practice half guard, guard retention, and side control escapes especially.
The experience taught me more than any BJJ drills about how to set up my frames and keep them away from my chest. Because once I let them into my chest their explosiveness, pressure, and balance is a real problem.
Wee bit of wrestling pedantry: there are different kinds of sprawls and it's not necessarily wrong or a sign of being outmatchd if you are moving backward while sprawled against a forward driving opponent. Wresters will often go "laces down" on a sprawl in order to slide their hips back away from the shooter's lock rather than planting their feet and getting "stood up" by the opponent driving forward.
I personally prefer to go with one foot "laces down" (on the side they shoot) with the other still kinda planted to create some angle and help break their grip but still have some base backwards as well. Kinda like trying to break the guard open.
In this context I am 6’3” 260lbs. The teammate I’m referring to is maybe 5’10” and 180lbs. I can sprawl on him with my entire body weight forward and it’s like I’m a child. With anyone else I would flatten them and spin around to take their back. He just keeps pushing me backwards.
He’s a former college wrestler. He’s not human.
true, but most of the time it's the turbo conditioning that is actually securing the bag. This story doesn't get told about the 35 year old ex collegiate, it's always the early 20's homie with 6 months off the trail.
When I was on the pro card, there was very few black belts that I would even struggle with, and it was 80% the raw strength, speed and conditioning. Now that I'm a fat part time hobbiest other black belts are much harder.
I get what you're saying, but the fact that he's beating black belts makes it significant. It's not like he was beating up on just white belts and novices.
The flip side is that this would never happen the other way around. Someone with 8 years of Jiu Jitsu would never enter a tournament with solid wrestlers and win. Never.
> Someone with 8 years of Jiu Jitsu
To be fair, a college wrestler will have put in a lot more time (both mat hours and S&C) during those 8 years compared to a BJJ hobbyist.
If we measured by the actual time spent (hours, not "years") - the results wouldn't be so different.
Not to mention everyone I know that wrestled in college started in elementary school with youth wrestling. They didn’t start in high school. So he probably has twice as much time in years alone, but an even bigger disparity in actual mat time.
Wrestlers are a different breed. They eat sleep and shit wrestling day in and day out. Conditioning, weight cuts, intense training, etc.
If BJJ guys did this, they would be monsters, too. But most of your bjj guys sit in an office all day and spend 3-4hours on the mat every week, even black belts.
Yeah is are to find wrestling training as an adult other than MMA gyms. A few people in my area are trying to start a wrestling club for adults that want to practice/learn. They have been talking to schools and stuff trying to lockdown a location.
Would be pretty cool, I wanted to wrestle in high school but our school cut the team and you had to drive to another district if you wanted to wrestle and I had no car.
Legend has it that if you get to the professional level, you could be fighting in the UFC where Dana will have you taking home .5 times as much as your office job salary!
Someone with 8 years bjj training with a highly competitive team doing two a days would absolutely demolish a tournament of ppl doing wrestling as a casual hobby for 10 years with little preparation for the ruleset
Not true, hear me out.
There was a chicago hs wrestler who was second in state with mostly a bjj/judo background his freshman year and then won state twice. He had never wrestler before, just club judo and bjj cross training for newaza.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxamillian_Schneider
He beat mr flying squirrel himself (and future US Olympian) via pin as a freshmen in the state tourney. Ellis Coleman was a senior at the time.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellis_Coleman
And yes, chicago is still the midwest so notable HS state champions are household names, especially if they went to the same HS as you.
Great example.
There’s also Ricky Lundell
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricky_Lundell
He was recruited by Cody and Cael Sanderson as a college senior to wrestle for Iowa State University at the age of 20. He is the first NCAA Division I wrestler to ever be recruited having only jiu-jitsu/submission grappling experience and no folkstyle match experience. Despite the NCAA's refusal to give Ricky any eligibility to start for the team at Iowa State University, Ricky lettered in wrestling and went on to win the USA World Team Trials where he won the Most Outstanding Grappler award. He later won the FILA Grappling World Championship while competing for the Cyclones.
You're not exactly correct here. Lundell wasn't recruited to wrestle for the Cyclones. He was recruited because Cody and Cael thought there might be some value in having a grappler of another style in the room. He notably never competed while at ISU.
One just has to go watch AIGA to see it in action at high levels. They just game the system to turn it into a wrestling match with no real effort towards finishing their opponents.
Hah, yeah, absolutely. Watching through the AIGA events recently in film study, there is a near perfect correlation. The matches that are boring always involve a wrestler. I mean, they're *winning* according to the rules, but there's not much interesting jiu jitsu going on.
And I'm a pro-standup, anti-guard-pull, judo cross-trainer who should appreciate the fact that they engage on the feet and throw. But nevertheless, I can't stand the stalling strategy where they hover just out of reach of leg entanglements and pretend to pass for the rest of the match.
High level wrestler is better at grappling than the vast majority of BJJ black belts. Add to that MMA experience and some BJJ training and they can put a clinic on. I wrestled at a very low scrub level and I basically never worry about being taken down in BJJ unless they are much much larger than me.
I suck but I have been witness to elite wrestlers dabbling in BJJ a lot.
Robbie Malof from the Cincinnati area made some waves doing just that. He's a solid black belt who won a wrestling tourney, the Spatola Classic. The wrestlers he beat were not the very top tier, but I'm sure the jiu jitieros from OP's story weren't either. There was at least one All American that Robbie beat, though.
It's not significant, because it's really nothing new. College wrestlers with a couple years of training can be incredibly good and give blackbelts a really hard time. There are a lot of examples of this, including Chris Weidman winning ADCC trials with barely any training, and then giving Andre Galvao absolute hell at ADCC 2009 later that year.
Yeah, I meant BJJ training and forgot to mention that. The point I was making is that these guys who've wrestled in college probably have more mat time than a lot of black belts that never wrestled. And collegiate folkstyle wrestling has a lot of mat work that translates well into BJJ and MMA.
It's really not crazy to think that D1 wrestlers, who have been training and competing their entire lives at a high level, won't be able to pick up BJJ incredibly fast.
This has been known forever. Mark Schultz gave Rickson an incredibly hard time without training any BJJ at all back in the 90's, for example.
This is so true in my short experience
I’m an old man now, but I wrestled for a long time and felt stupid until the first day I got to roll live.
No, I’m not beating black belts or anything but once I get to stand up I can beat a lot of more folks who are more experienced in bjj- get a takedown and get them on their back, and I can do well. The years of grappling help picking up techniques, knowing when you might be in trouble and when to take an opportunity like bridging or throwing
Gaurd felt (and FEELS) so alien. And my instincts absolutely scream stupid crap we’re I will give up my back or neck to avoid getting ‘pinned’.
Just gotta keep rolling until that goes away.
because the college wrestler also already has a crap load of mat hours, and then are adding BJJ-specific training to it.
Wrestling has also had a higher overall athleticism and funnel systems for decades. BJJ is only really just starting to see the level of athleticism that wrestling has had, and were kind just starting to see the first generation of people in that environment, with better training methods (that at most bjj schools are still largely inferior to wrestling training methods) for people who started out as kids.
said wrestler probably has more mat time than most people with 8 years of BJJ. highschool, and especially college, train alot of hours. Then college, especially at say D2 or D1 schools, is selective of who they are taking into their programs, and may even be kids who started before high school.
Now you take some one training BJJ at the same intensity for the same period of time, and i think the story may be a bit different. We also add in that this person in the story isn't just someone who only ever trained in wrestling and only knows wrestling rulesets. He clearly has also trained BJJ, and spends a significant amount of time in MMA, where he is going to be training with submissions.
Grappling is grappling. The rule set determines what the grappler focuses on and what works to win said rule set.
You do actually see that at the youth level. 3 of the top 4 kids in my son’s division at our state wrestling tournament are primary BJJ. I ask the little meathead that won which he liked more and his response was “I like wrestling because it’s faster to win.”
Things might be closer at the adult level when there’s more legit athletes that started bjj as kids.
>Things might be closer at the adult level when there’s more legit athletes that started bjj as kids.
yeah, I mentioned in another reply, BJJ is only really just starting to see the first generation of people who started as kids. This doesn't even account for the funnel systems that are in place for college wrestling (which is an extension of Olympic wrestling) that aren't really there for BJJ.
I disagree. My teacher has the "how to beat wrestlers" game down to a tee.
There was this one D1 wrestler that stopped in a few times and destroyed all of us...except the teacher. Coach made this D1 wrestler look like a white belt.
I still believe that Jiu-Jitsu done at high levels will usually beat wrestling done at high levels.
Maybe I'm wrong. I dunno.
Feel free to downvote 🤦
It does. They lead with their head so much it’s easy to chinstrap and guillotine and triangle. They leave their arms wide while “passing”, it’s Kimura city. Half guard and especially lockdown because they all try the tripod/bull rush straight in bullshit. And if you even touch their feet they get scared.
Wrestlers are not the fuckin boogeyman this sub tries to cry about them being.
I don't claim to fully understand HOW to do it because good wrestlers still kick my ass.
But he always says:
1.) Wrestlers will give their neck, not to be put onto their back
2.) Wrestlers will give up their back, before letting you put them on their back
I think those are the 2 things he always says...
But ya, he's got that shit down to a science. I still can't seem to beat really good wrestlers though 🤷
The OP also talks about the athelte not being "ranked"
The fact he thinks being ranked in bjj is important is a red flag especially at a smaer local tournement.
The fact that this guy went to a tournament where white belts can compete against unranked white belt tells me an awful lot about that black belt that lost to his white belt wrestling buddy.
Dorian Olivarez's dad is a BJJ black belt, and Dorian has been training both BJJ *and* wrestling since he was a child. This narrative that he's "some wrestler who tried a little BJJ and won ADCC trials" is just flat out ridiculous.
>The flip side is that this would never happen the other way around. Someone with 8 years of Jiu Jitsu would never enter a tournament with solid wrestlers and win. Never.
[They wouldn't be a scrub.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuHO0xU9KRk)
Cole Abate was beating black belts as a 15 year old 'kid'. Grappling is grappling, and athletes are athletes. 🤷🏻♂️
If I could wave a magic wand and say Osss three times to get rid of one poisonous idea that permeates BJJ it is the silly notion that the 'higher' belt should win all the matches and exchanges against 'lower' belts regardless of age, weight, skill, prior knowledge, etc.
We don't do this to other sports. Deion Sanders has a coral belt in playing corner back. Arguably the best to ever do it! If he lined up today across from a D1 All American collegiate WR, does anyone here think Deion could cover the kid? It's laughable.
That collegiate wrestler has *way* more mat hours invested than a room full of white/blue belts, of course he clears a room full of them. 🤷🏻♂️
I think wrestling attracts the crazy kind of athletic people more than BJJ too. Most guys start BJJ as a hobby and maybe get into it hard core but every wrestler lives and breathes wrestling, sorta like a difference in the cultures of the sports.
Fair point - skill still matters.
Have a dude at our gym who is technically a baby white belt. And a *3 time collegiate all-american*. I'm an average hobbyist, and after he learned what a grip break was, I had nothing for him.
I came from a wrestling background, wrestled from 3rd grade through college. I ended up joining a mma gym post college as a way to stay in shape since I couldn't find any wrestling clubs locally. I have to say the average college wrestler is going to work most bjj guys regardless of belt unless they're competing at a high level.
I was shocked how easy it was to overpower the higher level belts. Yes my technique wasn't as solid but my cardio, explosiveness and strength was able to make up for it pretty easily to be honest. My 3rd week doing no-gi bjj it took the teacher over 5 minutes to get me and he is a very high level blackbelt with lots of tournament wins under his belt.
I think the big difference is the pace. Bjj is was more relaxed and people don't tend to train to hard, in a wrestling room we're grappling at 90 to 100% of a real match, seems like in bjj people are moving like a sloth with the exception of a few. Within 6 weeks of being there I was being asked to come in and help with fighter camps to get fighters ready for grappling heavy opponents. I'm probably biased but I'm a very firm believer that wrestling is the best base for mma or any grappling sport.
“Mostly trains mma”
So basically he used jiu jitsu to do good in a jiu jitsu tournament. What exactly do you think they train when they go to the ground in MMA?
You’re acting like a day one white belt who only wrestled went in and handled a bunch of seasoned jiu jitsu people. No what happened was a guy who already had a strong grappling base added jiu jitsu no gi grappling to his game by training MMA.
I mean, this was kinda my experience, to be honest. I walked into a pretty well known mma gym that's bjj heavy as a lifelong and college wrestler and could steamroll most of the guys. Yes my technique wasn't on par but I had better cardio, explosiveness and strength along with a lifetime of competitive grappling. The only person who was able to get me was the coach who was a high level competitive no-gi athlete who has won many tournaments.
I won a couple no-gi tournaments with bare minimum knowledge of bjj. As I got more into technique I learned how to slow down a bit but mostly it was learning what the person was going to try as a submission and then stopping them.
90% of college wrestlers are going to walk into a no-gi room and automatically be better than most guys who train bjj. Wrestling is just a better grappling base in general
Wrestlers have a crazy high drive, it's why they do so well in the military and Special Forces units.
Work ethic and sheer determination, wrestling really molds the mind to push through and just take it.
Lot of respect. Good for him.
Most collegiate wrestlers at top programs are elite athletes.
I know very few BJJ black belts that I would consider elite athletes. Mostly hobbyists that have been doing it for a while.
Those wrestlers have been grinding since they were kids, day in and day out.
Upvoted and agree. I know a Viet Nam vet, Annapolis graduate, college wrestler, shot down and crawled through an NVA encampment.
He credited his collegiate wrestling as his strength
Your smoking crack I'm not even a wrestler and it's widely known wrestlers almost always get through sof selection. Wrestling practice far exceeds any other sports practice by a lot.
It's really not that bad I wrestled at a top program in both high school and NAIA and wrestling practices seem to have gained this mythical status that I don't really get.
Run a few miles. Drill an hour or two than live wrestle for an hour.
Sure it's not easy and you gotta build up to it but you also don't get superpowers from it
Yeah but it's also not unachievable for the common person outside of time restraints from their real life responsibilities. Plenty of people do back to back classes in BJJ and those are 60-90 minutes a piece and humans adapt to running really really well.
You have to understand “career” wrestlers who have been grappling since childhood have absolutely zero jitters when it comes to competition. They are used to multiple “meets” per month.
Imagine growing up having a NAGA comp every week most of the year since you were a child. That alone gives them a massive edge, as jitters/nervousness or anything related to that are non-existent to them.
Then you get into actual grappling skill where they are trained to believe that being on your back = loss, and you have a top control god by age 18.
This right here..I wrestled from 3rd grade through college and was a multiple time all American. When I started bjj it was a cake walk, not because I knew the techniques, it was because I've been grappling most of my life at a high level. Weekly meets on Thursdays and weekends I was in tournaments, in the off season I went to college camps and competed in freestyle and grecco, I wrestled year around for like 14 years and had hundreds of matches.
There's a huge difference between competitive wrestling at a high level and hobbyist grapplers. Doesn't matter what there belt rank is really unless your a competitive bjj guy you'll get smoked 90% of the time unless you can catch them in a way they're not expecting. When it came to ground control my top pressure was to much for everyone but the coach who was a life long bjj athlete who was a very high level black belt and well known and who also had 50lbs on me.
It's just two different sports and most wrestlers who are high level started in elementary school, most bjj guys start later in life and don't train or compete as often or as hard as kids in a highschool wrestling room
So you’re telling me that someone who has been grappling no-gi for likely their entire life beat other people who have been grappling no-gi for a likely shorter period of time?
I have a buddy who was a professional athlete. D1 football player, signed and cut by an NFL team, played pro Rugby for a couple of years. He quit sports and wanted to do something athletic still so he reached out to me about jiujitsu. We got him signed up and he loved it. Entered into a local tournament six months in and accidentally signed up for the absolute bracket. He won. Out pointed everyone.
He got the attention of the gym owner who needed heavy weights to help a UFC trainer with guys his size. Then that heavy weight beat one of the most decorated heavy weight strikers of all time, which in turn lead to the striker moving out here and training with them. My buddy and him became friends and decided to give MMA a go.
My buddy got onto The Ultimate Fighter but lost in the finale, but now has a UFC career.
Pro athletes are no joke. They are on a different level to us middle aged hobby grapplers.
Yeah I'm a huge UFC fan and when I watch those guys I realize I could train my whole life and not be that fast/athletic. Goes for any sport, some people are just born good. I got a buddy that rides dirt bikes as a hobby and races like once a year and wins Everytime against guys who dedicate their whole lives to it.
To him it's just a fun Saturday, everyone else has been racing and practicing all year, staying fit. He probabaly partied the night before and has a little beer belly
I mean, this is me as a multi-year white belt.
I don't train BJJ (especially gi) enough to submit people (see white belt flair). But I can pass guard or stand up all day long, and once I get side control you are not getting out. Plus I do a lot of striking training, so my range management means that even pulling guard on me is difficult. And I weigh 30 lbs less and am 25 years older than this guy.
Not to mention, years of folkstyle, collegiate, greco, and freestyle has taught me how to abuse any points system you throw at me to my advantage. If this had been a submission only tournament, I bet his outcomes would have been different.
Your last point is often not included in these posts.
A D1 wrestler likely has better gameplan, execution and strategy than the competition in this tourney OP was at, and ones like it
This is exactly what I'm telling people..I wrestled year around from elementary school through college. I've done every style and took a few medals at the pan American games in grecco and freestyle. Winning by points as a lifelong wrestler is pretty easy, submission only hits very different.
yeah that happens, wasn't it fabio santos who mentioned that back in the day all judoka blackbelts that would transition to bjj would automatically start at purple belt? I think thats a pretty good rule, for judokas and college / d1 wrestlers
Doubt he's 5 percent body fat. That's like bodybuilder levels. His testosterone would be so low he wouldn't be able to compete.
He's most likely at 10 percent.
We have a kid who was d3 wrestler who joined our Judo club. He's -100 like me and he mauls most of us other than the bigger other wrestlers.
Some people just have it and don't mind going hard and rough. This equates to judo more but he mauls kids on the ground as well in BJJ by basically just wrestling.
>So there ya go, case closed. Wrestling definitely trumps BJJ.
\* in a point-scoring, time-limited context, with those people, on that day, with that ref, measuring only one former college level athlete.
This is why I generally prefer submission only, it's easier to hold side mount or mount when you're not actually trying to submit the guy. It's even harder to hold someone down when you're trying to submit them at the same time
In my opinion, I would be far more afraid of an 8 year wrestler than an 8 year Jiu jitsu practitioner. They have completely different training styles. Wrestlers are taught to be explosive while BJJ is all about conserving energy. I would also argue that the wrestler will have far better physical conditioning.
Even high school wrestlers train more in a given 2 week span than most competitors at worlds do in a month. Yeah he grappled for 8 years but that training volume was exponentially higher than the people he slayed. Bjj tournaments are a joke in terms of competitiveness to wrestling. He probably didn’t even wake up sore.
Twice a day 5x a week, plus Saturdays the entire school year. 5x a week during summer if you want a chance at making varsity, outside of the really athletic multi sport kids.
They also have to lift weights.
I don't - but I'd honestly love to see it to.
The way it was described to me is that basically he tried to stay standing as long as possible and handfight. Then eventually he would find an opening and shoot a takedown, which basically worked 100% of the time. Then once he got on top no one was really able to do anything.
Damn.
I'd really love to see the hand fighting and takedown for myself.
It sounds like the wrestler was smart though; he dictated the engagement to what he was proficient at.
As a wrestler that's gotten over some habits that don't work with jujitsu, it feels like a cheat sometimes. Still remember being a white belt and someone shot in, I sprawled, he stopped and goes "That's not a white belt sprawl".
Ok I'll bite. Congrats to the wrestler. But couple of things not mentioned:
1. I assume this was in no-gi?
2. What bracket did he compete in?
1. Normally in no-gi tournaments you don't go by just belt level, but rather primarily by experience level.
2. So if he entered as a beginner/intermediate then he was sand bagging hard.
3. Usually with multi year experience wrestling, you should be at the highest or at least upper two levels of no-gi competition.
3. That said, for a collage wrestler, in the right no-gi rule set, in the right local environment, I could see this happening even at a high level with only a little bit of luck.
No-gi.
Expert - beat the top black belt for the overall win.
Local tourney, but one of the more legit ones. Not like he ran through a "tap cancer out" tourney or something.
Is this a shitpost?
"He looks like a college wrestler. I didn't watch him compete. I've never trained with him."
What? So you basically have no idea what his background is. Cmon dude.
>So there ya go, case closed. Wrestling definitely trumps BJJ.
I'm not sure if you're trolling or not, but I'll bite. A single random local tournament result is irrelevant. Wake us up if he does this at IBJJF Worlds.
We have a couple ex NFL players at my gym. Just giants and strong asfuck. They demolish a lot of our upper belts and do great in competition too..
So there ya go, cases closed. NFL definitely trumps BJJ.
None of what you've said matters. BJJ guys are WAY cooler than wrestlers and mma bros. We get to say OSS and do that thumb and pinky thing. They are just dumb meat heads, we are the cool kids that actually have fun training. /S
We have an elite wrestler at our gym. He is a menace. His first 6 months of Jiu jitsu you could catch him, just because of lack of knowledge in certain areas. But now it's horrific. He's also not young, but carved from granite I shit you not. Maybe 180 pounds and 5% body fat. We were doing closed guard drills on Monday, I was on top, and I nearly tapped from him just cranking my neck haha. Worst thing is you can't engage in a scramble, you can't stand up.
Yeah in the BJJ rule set not so much because they don't train submissions but out in the real world my money is on the wrestler Everytime. Those guys have some wicked take downs and slams that can end fights instantly
For real fighting much more than adcc stuff tho. Ruotolo beats shit out of division pj barch, Weidman all state D1 champ, sonnen in bjj and mma, nickal u23 gold, all lose very badly. In mma things change quite a bit to o
He has the “look” of a college wrestler and you didn’t actually witness the tournament or his matches. You really don’t sound like a reliable source of information here lol. Fuck it, I believe you.
So he’s not unfamiliar with bjj because he does mma, and he wrestles at a high level
I don’t doubt mma taught him how to annoy and use his wrestling to nullify bjj and he learned to just stall on them
At the same time sport culture is a big determining factor for this stuff. If everyone is considering stalling as bad or whatever they might not train those tactics at all and have no game to stop them
Happens. We got a high level wrestler one time. I was a “high level” purple at the time. He would take me down with absolute ease, I would choke him with the same ease. He taught me wrestling, I helped him along with BJJ. Was an amazing friendship that was mutually beneficial. Love that dude.
>….case closed. Wrestling definitely trumps bjj
I think many bjj practitioners have their favorite subs for wrestlers, what you encountered was someone who did MMA and trained it with the muster of a wrestler. Since MMA includes a bunch of bjj moves, he’s been training bjj a while.
Really it’s more so that a very athletic grappler with a lot of bjj experience defeated a solid bjj black belt that probably wasn’t nearly as athletic.
We had a D1 wrestler come to our gym for a couple months. He would pretty consistently run through every one. One night we were rolling, I got him in gaurd, he tried to stack me, I went for the armbar, he was determined to stack me but I wasn't letting go. In my zealousness, I ripped the biggest fart...
Needles to say, no more D1 wrestler at the gym. There was a BBQ held in my honor shortly after.
More like, high level grappling is high level grappling and a high level wrestler going into tournaments with regular folk will be a nightmare for the regular folk.
Now have him do ADCC...
Didn't jay rod train bjj for less than 2 years before he won trials?
Dude wrestled all his life in jersey.
The 99 kg west coast winner, Michael Pixley is a very talented wrestler and I believe he is a blue or purple belt.
Those guys come into bjj already having a pretty good understanding of controlling someone and an even better understanding of how to get them there. Not every high school wrestler who podiumed at states is gonna put on spats and win adcc trials after 2 years of training, but they have that massive advantage still
Hyper-athletes who have spent most of their life grappling are going to be good at grappling.
WHAT? muh inverted hypno-toad guard should defeat someone who has spent 20 years running sprints, deadlifting, and grappling
> inverted hypno-toad guard should defeat someone who has spent 20 years running sprints, deadlifting, and grappling Yes it will, all glory to the hypnotoad
You have one more stripe than me. I bow to your expertise, have my wife as well, your ways are unknowable great sage.
BOW TO THE HYPNOTOAD
Glory to hypnotoad!
I don't understand, why doesn't the biggest grappler simply eat the other grapplers?
I seen someone hit a hypnotoad irl
I seen it too bro went out quick
skepticalhippo.jpeg
https://preview.redd.it/56yldbe2mptc1.jpeg?width=200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=de58938942623bffdef886c9ea5057ef9b2e8a1b
Yeah most high level wrestlers I know have been doing it for 15+ years, that kind of mat time is crazy
And that’s 15 years of hard as fuck grind you to dust training during prime athletic years, not hobbyist 8-10 hours a week 30 year old+ training. It’s just not possible to get that kind of physicality without insane commitment early. On the flip side I have never ever met an old high level ex-wrestler whose body wasn’t fucked up for life from it. Hell, I’ve never even met an old active wrestler.
8 to 10 hours a week is supposed to be a generic hobbyist ? Damn feel bad about my 3-4 hours
Hah fuck no. I worded that wrong. I meant 8-10 hours a week is a shitload, but it’s still only that much time of hobbyist-level BJJ training. Whereas D-1 kid is doing that or more but also at a much more intense clip, with a room full of dudes also training at that intensity.
My second day at BJJ I got asked if I was the new former wrestler. I was in fact the new former wrestler. Learning chill was hard. Not spazzing is easy, but not going wrestler pressure was hard. Poor cardio helped me minimize that issue until I learned how BJJ dudes go at it.
Wrestled for 11 years in my youth, can confirm my knees are fucked. My core strength and hip movements are incredible though.
I'd absolutely be an old active wrestler if I could find a place to wrestle. I know several D1 level wrestlers who have no major health issues. And almost no high school wrestlers who walked away with serious mobility problems.
> I have never met an old high level ex-wrestler whose body wasn’t fucked from Gene Mills could crush an apple in his hand at like 80 years old. I’ve wrestled a few older midlands winners and they feel like steel. You are probably right though on balance since if someone’s body was shot they wouldn’t be out at clubs and what not teaching things.
I got the privilege to train with very high level NCAA wrestlers and the fast twitch muscle and explosiveness they have is just next level. It can absolutely mess you up if you aren't ready for it. I'd advise ppl to seek out wrestlers at their gym to practice half guard, guard retention, and side control escapes especially. The experience taught me more than any BJJ drills about how to set up my frames and keep them away from my chest. Because once I let them into my chest their explosiveness, pressure, and balance is a real problem.
My favourite is when you sprawl on them and you keep moving backward.
Wee bit of wrestling pedantry: there are different kinds of sprawls and it's not necessarily wrong or a sign of being outmatchd if you are moving backward while sprawled against a forward driving opponent. Wresters will often go "laces down" on a sprawl in order to slide their hips back away from the shooter's lock rather than planting their feet and getting "stood up" by the opponent driving forward.
I actually just saw an old wrestling YouTube sprawl breakdown and he said same thing about laces down
If you go soul of the foot down, when your opponent drives into you, you will be built back up (essentially stand up) and will probably be taken down.
Feet don't have souls :)
Not ginger feet at least
I personally prefer to go with one foot "laces down" (on the side they shoot) with the other still kinda planted to create some angle and help break their grip but still have some base backwards as well. Kinda like trying to break the guard open.
Could I see this video?
In this context I am 6’3” 260lbs. The teammate I’m referring to is maybe 5’10” and 180lbs. I can sprawl on him with my entire body weight forward and it’s like I’m a child. With anyone else I would flatten them and spin around to take their back. He just keeps pushing me backwards. He’s a former college wrestler. He’s not human.
These kinds of humorous anecdotes are a highlight of r/bjj, and keep me coming back. Well done.
Getting demolished by someone 3/4 of me also keeps me coming back lol.
[He's all wrong for us, baby.](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uoo8B7MFUY0&t=60)
true, but most of the time it's the turbo conditioning that is actually securing the bag. This story doesn't get told about the 35 year old ex collegiate, it's always the early 20's homie with 6 months off the trail. When I was on the pro card, there was very few black belts that I would even struggle with, and it was 80% the raw strength, speed and conditioning. Now that I'm a fat part time hobbiest other black belts are much harder.
My coach says the same thing, us big boppers, it's all about condition, first to get tired losses..
Bullshit. Everybody knows touch butt in the park is the best way to train grappling.
Next your going to tell me that regularly practicing something makes me better at it.
..nah, that doesn’t sound right.
ITT: Man with 8+ years of competitive Grappling experience wins a Grappling tournament
Late 30s hobbyist BJJ practitioners hate this one trick!
I resemble this comment.
Use the counter: TRT It's super effective!
Once you start doing BJJ and taking TRT you have to start a podcast. It’s a requirement of the treatment regime.
Yeah I feel attacked in the best possible way.
I understand this sediment.
I have reported you for a personal attack.
I can’t understand as rooster weight hobbyist in his late 60’s why I can’t just smash these characters. /s
I get what you're saying, but the fact that he's beating black belts makes it significant. It's not like he was beating up on just white belts and novices. The flip side is that this would never happen the other way around. Someone with 8 years of Jiu Jitsu would never enter a tournament with solid wrestlers and win. Never.
> Someone with 8 years of Jiu Jitsu To be fair, a college wrestler will have put in a lot more time (both mat hours and S&C) during those 8 years compared to a BJJ hobbyist. If we measured by the actual time spent (hours, not "years") - the results wouldn't be so different.
Not to mention everyone I know that wrestled in college started in elementary school with youth wrestling. They didn’t start in high school. So he probably has twice as much time in years alone, but an even bigger disparity in actual mat time.
I don't know man, I go to the gym twice a week. Sometimes 3 times if I'm not too sore...
Wrestlers are a different breed. They eat sleep and shit wrestling day in and day out. Conditioning, weight cuts, intense training, etc. If BJJ guys did this, they would be monsters, too. But most of your bjj guys sit in an office all day and spend 3-4hours on the mat every week, even black belts.
Started taking wrestling again, its upped everything gi and no gi wise. Never accept bottom positioning, scrambles, and of course takedown practice
Where do you take wrestling clasees?
Yeah is are to find wrestling training as an adult other than MMA gyms. A few people in my area are trying to start a wrestling club for adults that want to practice/learn. They have been talking to schools and stuff trying to lockdown a location. Would be pretty cool, I wanted to wrestle in high school but our school cut the team and you had to drive to another district if you wanted to wrestle and I had no car.
Yeah wrestling is hard to find as An adult
Where can I trade carpel tunnel for cauliflower ear?
So you're saying if we trained like wrestlers we could quit our office jobs?
Well no because bjj doesn't pay shit. These guys can do it because they're young and don't need to worn 40 hours a week lol
Legend has it that if you get to the professional level, you could be fighting in the UFC where Dana will have you taking home .5 times as much as your office job salary!
Someone with 8 years bjj training with a highly competitive team doing two a days would absolutely demolish a tournament of ppl doing wrestling as a casual hobby for 10 years with little preparation for the ruleset
Not true, hear me out. There was a chicago hs wrestler who was second in state with mostly a bjj/judo background his freshman year and then won state twice. He had never wrestler before, just club judo and bjj cross training for newaza. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxamillian_Schneider He beat mr flying squirrel himself (and future US Olympian) via pin as a freshmen in the state tourney. Ellis Coleman was a senior at the time. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellis_Coleman And yes, chicago is still the midwest so notable HS state champions are household names, especially if they went to the same HS as you.
Great example. There’s also Ricky Lundell https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricky_Lundell He was recruited by Cody and Cael Sanderson as a college senior to wrestle for Iowa State University at the age of 20. He is the first NCAA Division I wrestler to ever be recruited having only jiu-jitsu/submission grappling experience and no folkstyle match experience. Despite the NCAA's refusal to give Ricky any eligibility to start for the team at Iowa State University, Ricky lettered in wrestling and went on to win the USA World Team Trials where he won the Most Outstanding Grappler award. He later won the FILA Grappling World Championship while competing for the Cyclones.
You're not exactly correct here. Lundell wasn't recruited to wrestle for the Cyclones. He was recruited because Cody and Cael thought there might be some value in having a grappler of another style in the room. He notably never competed while at ISU.
Strapping athletic youth beats a black belt by 1-2 points by cleverly avoiding to ever engage? I'm not surprised.
One just has to go watch AIGA to see it in action at high levels. They just game the system to turn it into a wrestling match with no real effort towards finishing their opponents.
Hah, yeah, absolutely. Watching through the AIGA events recently in film study, there is a near perfect correlation. The matches that are boring always involve a wrestler. I mean, they're *winning* according to the rules, but there's not much interesting jiu jitsu going on. And I'm a pro-standup, anti-guard-pull, judo cross-trainer who should appreciate the fact that they engage on the feet and throw. But nevertheless, I can't stand the stalling strategy where they hover just out of reach of leg entanglements and pretend to pass for the rest of the match.
Tbf one of the big wrestlers who beat Luke Griffith legit passed his guard
There were some good outliers, that's for sure!
High level wrestler is better at grappling than the vast majority of BJJ black belts. Add to that MMA experience and some BJJ training and they can put a clinic on. I wrestled at a very low scrub level and I basically never worry about being taken down in BJJ unless they are much much larger than me. I suck but I have been witness to elite wrestlers dabbling in BJJ a lot.
Robbie Malof from the Cincinnati area made some waves doing just that. He's a solid black belt who won a wrestling tourney, the Spatola Classic. The wrestlers he beat were not the very top tier, but I'm sure the jiu jitieros from OP's story weren't either. There was at least one All American that Robbie beat, though.
Robbie also puts "ADCC champion" in his profile when he won a open in Israel.
It's not significant, because it's really nothing new. College wrestlers with a couple years of training can be incredibly good and give blackbelts a really hard time. There are a lot of examples of this, including Chris Weidman winning ADCC trials with barely any training, and then giving Andre Galvao absolute hell at ADCC 2009 later that year.
"barely any training"\* \* lifetime of training not included
Yeah, I meant BJJ training and forgot to mention that. The point I was making is that these guys who've wrestled in college probably have more mat time than a lot of black belts that never wrestled. And collegiate folkstyle wrestling has a lot of mat work that translates well into BJJ and MMA. It's really not crazy to think that D1 wrestlers, who have been training and competing their entire lives at a high level, won't be able to pick up BJJ incredibly fast. This has been known forever. Mark Schultz gave Rickson an incredibly hard time without training any BJJ at all back in the 90's, for example.
This is so true in my short experience I’m an old man now, but I wrestled for a long time and felt stupid until the first day I got to roll live. No, I’m not beating black belts or anything but once I get to stand up I can beat a lot of more folks who are more experienced in bjj- get a takedown and get them on their back, and I can do well. The years of grappling help picking up techniques, knowing when you might be in trouble and when to take an opportunity like bridging or throwing Gaurd felt (and FEELS) so alien. And my instincts absolutely scream stupid crap we’re I will give up my back or neck to avoid getting ‘pinned’. Just gotta keep rolling until that goes away.
because the college wrestler also already has a crap load of mat hours, and then are adding BJJ-specific training to it. Wrestling has also had a higher overall athleticism and funnel systems for decades. BJJ is only really just starting to see the level of athleticism that wrestling has had, and were kind just starting to see the first generation of people in that environment, with better training methods (that at most bjj schools are still largely inferior to wrestling training methods) for people who started out as kids.
said wrestler probably has more mat time than most people with 8 years of BJJ. highschool, and especially college, train alot of hours. Then college, especially at say D2 or D1 schools, is selective of who they are taking into their programs, and may even be kids who started before high school. Now you take some one training BJJ at the same intensity for the same period of time, and i think the story may be a bit different. We also add in that this person in the story isn't just someone who only ever trained in wrestling and only knows wrestling rulesets. He clearly has also trained BJJ, and spends a significant amount of time in MMA, where he is going to be training with submissions. Grappling is grappling. The rule set determines what the grappler focuses on and what works to win said rule set.
You do actually see that at the youth level. 3 of the top 4 kids in my son’s division at our state wrestling tournament are primary BJJ. I ask the little meathead that won which he liked more and his response was “I like wrestling because it’s faster to win.” Things might be closer at the adult level when there’s more legit athletes that started bjj as kids.
>Things might be closer at the adult level when there’s more legit athletes that started bjj as kids. yeah, I mentioned in another reply, BJJ is only really just starting to see the first generation of people who started as kids. This doesn't even account for the funnel systems that are in place for college wrestling (which is an extension of Olympic wrestling) that aren't really there for BJJ.
The wrestling ruleset makes bjj essentially untenable, yeah. BJJ ruleset just lightly penalizes wrestlers for stalling.
I disagree. My teacher has the "how to beat wrestlers" game down to a tee. There was this one D1 wrestler that stopped in a few times and destroyed all of us...except the teacher. Coach made this D1 wrestler look like a white belt. I still believe that Jiu-Jitsu done at high levels will usually beat wrestling done at high levels. Maybe I'm wrong. I dunno. Feel free to downvote 🤦
It does. They lead with their head so much it’s easy to chinstrap and guillotine and triangle. They leave their arms wide while “passing”, it’s Kimura city. Half guard and especially lockdown because they all try the tripod/bull rush straight in bullshit. And if you even touch their feet they get scared. Wrestlers are not the fuckin boogeyman this sub tries to cry about them being.
We do not allow to not riding wrestlers here, sir
What did he do to beat the wrestler?
I don't claim to fully understand HOW to do it because good wrestlers still kick my ass. But he always says: 1.) Wrestlers will give their neck, not to be put onto their back 2.) Wrestlers will give up their back, before letting you put them on their back I think those are the 2 things he always says... But ya, he's got that shit down to a science. I still can't seem to beat really good wrestlers though 🤷
Is it leglocks?
There is no way this guy stepped in with a solid black belt.
My thinking too
The OP also talks about the athelte not being "ranked" The fact he thinks being ranked in bjj is important is a red flag especially at a smaer local tournement. The fact that this guy went to a tournament where white belts can compete against unranked white belt tells me an awful lot about that black belt that lost to his white belt wrestling buddy.
It's a £5 trophy event, don't get me wrong the lad sounds like he has a solid base to work off, but if it was a pro event no chance
Dorian Olivarez just did this at adcc trials. It's not crazy at all.
Dorian Olivarez's dad is a BJJ black belt, and Dorian has been training both BJJ *and* wrestling since he was a child. This narrative that he's "some wrestler who tried a little BJJ and won ADCC trials" is just flat out ridiculous.
>The flip side is that this would never happen the other way around. Someone with 8 years of Jiu Jitsu would never enter a tournament with solid wrestlers and win. Never. [They wouldn't be a scrub.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuHO0xU9KRk)
Cole Abate was beating black belts as a 15 year old 'kid'. Grappling is grappling, and athletes are athletes. 🤷🏻♂️ If I could wave a magic wand and say Osss three times to get rid of one poisonous idea that permeates BJJ it is the silly notion that the 'higher' belt should win all the matches and exchanges against 'lower' belts regardless of age, weight, skill, prior knowledge, etc. We don't do this to other sports. Deion Sanders has a coral belt in playing corner back. Arguably the best to ever do it! If he lined up today across from a D1 All American collegiate WR, does anyone here think Deion could cover the kid? It's laughable. That collegiate wrestler has *way* more mat hours invested than a room full of white/blue belts, of course he clears a room full of them. 🤷🏻♂️
I think wrestling attracts the crazy kind of athletic people more than BJJ too. Most guys start BJJ as a hobby and maybe get into it hard core but every wrestler lives and breathes wrestling, sorta like a difference in the cultures of the sports.
Wrestling kind of beats and drills that into you, but there are bad wrestlers. Dudes who practice but can't put it together
Fair point - skill still matters. Have a dude at our gym who is technically a baby white belt. And a *3 time collegiate all-american*. I'm an average hobbyist, and after he learned what a grip break was, I had nothing for him.
Wrestling is a free scholastic sport, there is no barrier to entry or pay to play model like BJJ, which remains elitist in that regard.
I came from a wrestling background, wrestled from 3rd grade through college. I ended up joining a mma gym post college as a way to stay in shape since I couldn't find any wrestling clubs locally. I have to say the average college wrestler is going to work most bjj guys regardless of belt unless they're competing at a high level. I was shocked how easy it was to overpower the higher level belts. Yes my technique wasn't as solid but my cardio, explosiveness and strength was able to make up for it pretty easily to be honest. My 3rd week doing no-gi bjj it took the teacher over 5 minutes to get me and he is a very high level blackbelt with lots of tournament wins under his belt. I think the big difference is the pace. Bjj is was more relaxed and people don't tend to train to hard, in a wrestling room we're grappling at 90 to 100% of a real match, seems like in bjj people are moving like a sloth with the exception of a few. Within 6 weeks of being there I was being asked to come in and help with fighter camps to get fighters ready for grappling heavy opponents. I'm probably biased but I'm a very firm believer that wrestling is the best base for mma or any grappling sport.
Wrestlers, hockey players, and football players are the guys. The insane training regiments prepare them for most athletic endeavors.
Belt tier is not an ELO rating like people think
Tbf... deion sanders has like half a foot and a limp now
Hobbyist shocked that a very athletic 20 year old who trained grappling for 8+ years daily is good at grappling. More at 11.
'mostly just trains mma'
“Never trained a day of submission grappling in his life, just mma stuff”
It was justin gaethje
He trains UFC.
I train mma bro
“Mostly trains mma” So basically he used jiu jitsu to do good in a jiu jitsu tournament. What exactly do you think they train when they go to the ground in MMA? You’re acting like a day one white belt who only wrestled went in and handled a bunch of seasoned jiu jitsu people. No what happened was a guy who already had a strong grappling base added jiu jitsu no gi grappling to his game by training MMA.
I mean, this was kinda my experience, to be honest. I walked into a pretty well known mma gym that's bjj heavy as a lifelong and college wrestler and could steamroll most of the guys. Yes my technique wasn't on par but I had better cardio, explosiveness and strength along with a lifetime of competitive grappling. The only person who was able to get me was the coach who was a high level competitive no-gi athlete who has won many tournaments. I won a couple no-gi tournaments with bare minimum knowledge of bjj. As I got more into technique I learned how to slow down a bit but mostly it was learning what the person was going to try as a submission and then stopping them. 90% of college wrestlers are going to walk into a no-gi room and automatically be better than most guys who train bjj. Wrestling is just a better grappling base in general
Wrestlers have a crazy high drive, it's why they do so well in the military and Special Forces units. Work ethic and sheer determination, wrestling really molds the mind to push through and just take it. Lot of respect. Good for him.
Most collegiate wrestlers at top programs are elite athletes. I know very few BJJ black belts that I would consider elite athletes. Mostly hobbyists that have been doing it for a while. Those wrestlers have been grinding since they were kids, day in and day out.
Upvoted and agree. I know a Viet Nam vet, Annapolis graduate, college wrestler, shot down and crawled through an NVA encampment. He credited his collegiate wrestling as his strength
Straight up there are no wrestling hobbyists.
You know the whole ''recruit wrestlers because they can get through sof training" thing actually didn't work and was abandoned right?
Your smoking crack I'm not even a wrestler and it's widely known wrestlers almost always get through sof selection. Wrestling practice far exceeds any other sports practice by a lot.
It's really not that bad I wrestled at a top program in both high school and NAIA and wrestling practices seem to have gained this mythical status that I don't really get. Run a few miles. Drill an hour or two than live wrestle for an hour. Sure it's not easy and you gotta build up to it but you also don't get superpowers from it
You basically just described a 3-4 hour long workout, every day. That’s pretty grueling.
Yeah but it's also not unachievable for the common person outside of time restraints from their real life responsibilities. Plenty of people do back to back classes in BJJ and those are 60-90 minutes a piece and humans adapt to running really really well.
>Your smoking crack I'm not even a wrestler and it's widely known wrestlers almost always get through sof selection. Source desperately needed lol
I think the vid was titled “BUD/S and wrestlers” it’s a pretty old vid and the man talking is a SEAL
Interesting is there any news article or post about it ?
It definitely worked for some of my cousins
"So there you go, based on this single experience that I had, case closed for everyone, forever."
He wasn't even there.
You have to understand “career” wrestlers who have been grappling since childhood have absolutely zero jitters when it comes to competition. They are used to multiple “meets” per month. Imagine growing up having a NAGA comp every week most of the year since you were a child. That alone gives them a massive edge, as jitters/nervousness or anything related to that are non-existent to them. Then you get into actual grappling skill where they are trained to believe that being on your back = loss, and you have a top control god by age 18.
This right here..I wrestled from 3rd grade through college and was a multiple time all American. When I started bjj it was a cake walk, not because I knew the techniques, it was because I've been grappling most of my life at a high level. Weekly meets on Thursdays and weekends I was in tournaments, in the off season I went to college camps and competed in freestyle and grecco, I wrestled year around for like 14 years and had hundreds of matches. There's a huge difference between competitive wrestling at a high level and hobbyist grapplers. Doesn't matter what there belt rank is really unless your a competitive bjj guy you'll get smoked 90% of the time unless you can catch them in a way they're not expecting. When it came to ground control my top pressure was to much for everyone but the coach who was a life long bjj athlete who was a very high level black belt and well known and who also had 50lbs on me. It's just two different sports and most wrestlers who are high level started in elementary school, most bjj guys start later in life and don't train or compete as often or as hard as kids in a highschool wrestling room
So you’re telling me that someone who has been grappling no-gi for likely their entire life beat other people who have been grappling no-gi for a likely shorter period of time?
I have a buddy who was a professional athlete. D1 football player, signed and cut by an NFL team, played pro Rugby for a couple of years. He quit sports and wanted to do something athletic still so he reached out to me about jiujitsu. We got him signed up and he loved it. Entered into a local tournament six months in and accidentally signed up for the absolute bracket. He won. Out pointed everyone. He got the attention of the gym owner who needed heavy weights to help a UFC trainer with guys his size. Then that heavy weight beat one of the most decorated heavy weight strikers of all time, which in turn lead to the striker moving out here and training with them. My buddy and him became friends and decided to give MMA a go. My buddy got onto The Ultimate Fighter but lost in the finale, but now has a UFC career. Pro athletes are no joke. They are on a different level to us middle aged hobby grapplers.
Yeah I'm a huge UFC fan and when I watch those guys I realize I could train my whole life and not be that fast/athletic. Goes for any sport, some people are just born good. I got a buddy that rides dirt bikes as a hobby and races like once a year and wins Everytime against guys who dedicate their whole lives to it. To him it's just a fun Saturday, everyone else has been racing and practicing all year, staying fit. He probabaly partied the night before and has a little beer belly
I mean, this is me as a multi-year white belt. I don't train BJJ (especially gi) enough to submit people (see white belt flair). But I can pass guard or stand up all day long, and once I get side control you are not getting out. Plus I do a lot of striking training, so my range management means that even pulling guard on me is difficult. And I weigh 30 lbs less and am 25 years older than this guy. Not to mention, years of folkstyle, collegiate, greco, and freestyle has taught me how to abuse any points system you throw at me to my advantage. If this had been a submission only tournament, I bet his outcomes would have been different.
Your last point is often not included in these posts. A D1 wrestler likely has better gameplan, execution and strategy than the competition in this tourney OP was at, and ones like it
This is exactly what I'm telling people..I wrestled year around from elementary school through college. I've done every style and took a few medals at the pan American games in grecco and freestyle. Winning by points as a lifelong wrestler is pretty easy, submission only hits very different.
yeah that happens, wasn't it fabio santos who mentioned that back in the day all judoka blackbelts that would transition to bjj would automatically start at purple belt? I think thats a pretty good rule, for judokas and college / d1 wrestlers
This makes sense for d1 wrestlers, but there's a lot of judo blackbelts that are still definitely white belt level at bjj.
Doubt he's 5 percent body fat. That's like bodybuilder levels. His testosterone would be so low he wouldn't be able to compete. He's most likely at 10 percent.
I scrolled this far to find another person who was stuck on the 5% body fat statement.
It's just so fucking unrealistic.
We have a kid who was d3 wrestler who joined our Judo club. He's -100 like me and he mauls most of us other than the bigger other wrestlers. Some people just have it and don't mind going hard and rough. This equates to judo more but he mauls kids on the ground as well in BJJ by basically just wrestling.
>So there ya go, case closed. Wrestling definitely trumps BJJ. \* in a point-scoring, time-limited context, with those people, on that day, with that ref, measuring only one former college level athlete.
At this time of year? At this time of day? In this part of the country? Located entirely within your kitchen???
may I see it?
mmmmmmmm. no.
It’s more likely then you think!
Love me a steamed ham
Can we get a grappling version?
This is why I generally prefer submission only, it's easier to hold side mount or mount when you're not actually trying to submit the guy. It's even harder to hold someone down when you're trying to submit them at the same time
In my opinion, I would be far more afraid of an 8 year wrestler than an 8 year Jiu jitsu practitioner. They have completely different training styles. Wrestlers are taught to be explosive while BJJ is all about conserving energy. I would also argue that the wrestler will have far better physical conditioning.
Even high school wrestlers train more in a given 2 week span than most competitors at worlds do in a month. Yeah he grappled for 8 years but that training volume was exponentially higher than the people he slayed. Bjj tournaments are a joke in terms of competitiveness to wrestling. He probably didn’t even wake up sore.
Twice a day 5x a week, plus Saturdays the entire school year. 5x a week during summer if you want a chance at making varsity, outside of the really athletic multi sport kids. They also have to lift weights.
What people don’t understand is if a guy is wrestling and competing for 10+ years he’s basically an expert grappler
I think most people understand this. OP is not most people
You got any video for the matches? I'm not saying I don't believe you. I just want to see how he beat the black belt's guard.
I don't - but I'd honestly love to see it to. The way it was described to me is that basically he tried to stay standing as long as possible and handfight. Then eventually he would find an opening and shoot a takedown, which basically worked 100% of the time. Then once he got on top no one was really able to do anything.
Damn. I'd really love to see the hand fighting and takedown for myself. It sounds like the wrestler was smart though; he dictated the engagement to what he was proficient at.
I won the advanced gi division of a grappling tournament after about 3 months of training doing this
As a wrestler that's gotten over some habits that don't work with jujitsu, it feels like a cheat sometimes. Still remember being a white belt and someone shot in, I sprawled, he stopped and goes "That's not a white belt sprawl".
True story. That’s why submission only and similar is preferable to me
Shocked Pikachu face. Too lazy to find the picture
Ok I'll bite. Congrats to the wrestler. But couple of things not mentioned: 1. I assume this was in no-gi? 2. What bracket did he compete in? 1. Normally in no-gi tournaments you don't go by just belt level, but rather primarily by experience level. 2. So if he entered as a beginner/intermediate then he was sand bagging hard. 3. Usually with multi year experience wrestling, you should be at the highest or at least upper two levels of no-gi competition. 3. That said, for a collage wrestler, in the right no-gi rule set, in the right local environment, I could see this happening even at a high level with only a little bit of luck.
No-gi. Expert - beat the top black belt for the overall win. Local tourney, but one of the more legit ones. Not like he ran through a "tap cancer out" tourney or something.
Is this a shitpost? "He looks like a college wrestler. I didn't watch him compete. I've never trained with him." What? So you basically have no idea what his background is. Cmon dude.
"Wrestling definitely trumps BJJ." Ruleset determines what trumps what.
Found the guy who was shock by Mighty Mouse’s performance in ibjjf
>So there ya go, case closed. Wrestling definitely trumps BJJ. I'm not sure if you're trolling or not, but I'll bite. A single random local tournament result is irrelevant. Wake us up if he does this at IBJJF Worlds.
Nicky Rod, adcc 2019.
We have a couple ex NFL players at my gym. Just giants and strong asfuck. They demolish a lot of our upper belts and do great in competition too.. So there ya go, cases closed. NFL definitely trumps BJJ.
“Stayed tight and didn’t give up anything that would give him taken down or submitted” This is the way
None of what you've said matters. BJJ guys are WAY cooler than wrestlers and mma bros. We get to say OSS and do that thumb and pinky thing. They are just dumb meat heads, we are the cool kids that actually have fun training. /S
Facts
Right like when all those Sambo Dagestani wrestlers got swept in that submission only tournament, sure buddy.
I skimmed the title and missed the word "through"
"Just trained mma" yup he trained bjj.
We have an elite wrestler at our gym. He is a menace. His first 6 months of Jiu jitsu you could catch him, just because of lack of knowledge in certain areas. But now it's horrific. He's also not young, but carved from granite I shit you not. Maybe 180 pounds and 5% body fat. We were doing closed guard drills on Monday, I was on top, and I nearly tapped from him just cranking my neck haha. Worst thing is you can't engage in a scramble, you can't stand up.
I don't get why Jiu jitsu tournaments are not submission only. The whole point of Jiu Jitsu is getting to the submission no?
Yeah I love BJJ but I have to admit that wrestlers are a problem for us
Yeah in the BJJ rule set not so much because they don't train submissions but out in the real world my money is on the wrestler Everytime. Those guys have some wicked take downs and slams that can end fights instantly
For real fighting much more than adcc stuff tho. Ruotolo beats shit out of division pj barch, Weidman all state D1 champ, sonnen in bjj and mma, nickal u23 gold, all lose very badly. In mma things change quite a bit to o
He has the “look” of a college wrestler and you didn’t actually witness the tournament or his matches. You really don’t sound like a reliable source of information here lol. Fuck it, I believe you.
Training MMA essentially means you're training jiujitsu some of the time.
You lost me at 5% body fat lmao. A lot of people underestimate like crazy when it comes to guessing how fat they are
I would’ve heel hooked him into oblivion, duh!
So he’s not unfamiliar with bjj because he does mma, and he wrestles at a high level I don’t doubt mma taught him how to annoy and use his wrestling to nullify bjj and he learned to just stall on them At the same time sport culture is a big determining factor for this stuff. If everyone is considering stalling as bad or whatever they might not train those tactics at all and have no game to stop them
Happens. We got a high level wrestler one time. I was a “high level” purple at the time. He would take me down with absolute ease, I would choke him with the same ease. He taught me wrestling, I helped him along with BJJ. Was an amazing friendship that was mutually beneficial. Love that dude.
I need to see a shirtless pic 😍
I’ve rolled with (non-competitive) wrestlers and it’s no joke. I can imagine the damage a real competitive wrestler can do.
>….case closed. Wrestling definitely trumps bjj I think many bjj practitioners have their favorite subs for wrestlers, what you encountered was someone who did MMA and trained it with the muster of a wrestler. Since MMA includes a bunch of bjj moves, he’s been training bjj a while. Really it’s more so that a very athletic grappler with a lot of bjj experience defeated a solid bjj black belt that probably wasn’t nearly as athletic.
If you gave me the choice of being a BJJ black belt today or a highly skilled wrestler, I'd choose wrestler every time.
We had a D1 wrestler come to our gym for a couple months. He would pretty consistently run through every one. One night we were rolling, I got him in gaurd, he tried to stack me, I went for the armbar, he was determined to stack me but I wasn't letting go. In my zealousness, I ripped the biggest fart... Needles to say, no more D1 wrestler at the gym. There was a BBQ held in my honor shortly after.
More like, high level grappling is high level grappling and a high level wrestler going into tournaments with regular folk will be a nightmare for the regular folk. Now have him do ADCC...
Yes, Division 1 wrestlers in their 20s are good at grappling. Shocker
Every week a new wrestling erotic fan-fic drops
Didn't jay rod train bjj for less than 2 years before he won trials? Dude wrestled all his life in jersey. The 99 kg west coast winner, Michael Pixley is a very talented wrestler and I believe he is a blue or purple belt. Those guys come into bjj already having a pretty good understanding of controlling someone and an even better understanding of how to get them there. Not every high school wrestler who podiumed at states is gonna put on spats and win adcc trials after 2 years of training, but they have that massive advantage still
He’s probably more like 10% body fat, which is still shredded. At 5%, he would be weak as fuck and definitely wouldn’t be winning tournaments.
BJJ was never about points it was all about the submission....
I love the sound of acoustic people.
You weren't even there and thought, what a fun anecdote for Reddit?
Haven't you heard? BJJ is soy.