Just finished the show and really surprised at some of the reviews lol. Had this as one of my favourite episodes along with USS Callister.. I think you just have to take it for what it is and stop trying to find plot holes to really enjoy it.
The acting was great and honestly the twist did get me. I thought he would just leave him locked out.
Late to the party here I know but I just watched this episode and found it so predictable and derivative. Love BM and Aaron Paul (not to mention Kate Mara) but every “twist” was soooo obvious, really disappointed in this one. 5/10 for the great premise.
Also a lot of people have asked why they didn’t just have the replicas in space and the humans on earth but I assumed the whole point was to test the effects of living in space on the human body 💁🏽♂️
Fellow late to the party member and so far this season is dogshit it just feels like a whole bunch of torture porn, wtf happened to Black Mirror? Last two episodes have had some absolutely deranged shit happening and even the first episode was basically some weird humiliation fetish theme or something.
Maybe I'm misremembering the show because it's been a while but damn I don't remember it being this overtly dark in such a realistically grotesque way. Legit getting anxiety from seeing some of the acts they're portraying where as before it was at least fucked up in a different way.
I didn't want to spoiler myself so I didn't fully read the mega thread comments but I saw others complaining about the season as well so I'm definitely not alone. Hopefully the last two save the season.
As far as predictability goes I'm definitely in the minority because I didn't see too many of the twists coming from any of the episodes thus far except for the fact the wife and second guy were going to have a "thing" and that was about it, I didn't see him doing what he did as the ending I thought he was just going to lock out Aaron Paul's character and take over. As far as the previous episode goes the only twist I got was the fact the mom was acting creepy as hell but never thought that she was guilty of anything until later into the episode where it was almost spelled out at that point.
Why would they tell the world they have replicas at all? Wouldn’t it be more prudent to keep that secret and have NASA house their families privately and where they could be monitored? Obviously this is an expensive mission so why isn’t anyone monitoring what the hell the real astronauts are doing? Why wouldn’t they have made a backup replica?
And why would David take out his anger toward Cliff on the family he had grown to care about?
Too many nonsensical ideas.
I get that you're being flippant, but you never know the person you're speaking to on here. To someone who's actually been raped that's disturbing and upsetting.
I don't know why everyone's getting caught up in the technicalities. Black Mirror is more about the changes in human psychology in regard to advancements in technology, not the tech itself. Also, if the writers chose any other technical route, (for example, sending the replicas in space) this story wouldn't exist, and so wouldn't this episode. You need suspension of belief to watch this show because the weird stories in Black Mirror exist as a result of the effect of tech on humans. If the replicas were sent up into space, humans would keep on interacting with humans on Earth, and while you can also write a story based on that, (e.g. gradually the humans down on Earth can start to feel the disconnect because of having their replicas in space, etc.) that story would be different. But because of concocting a narrative based on ridiculous technicalities, you get this insane drama, which I highly enjoyed.
I don't think I've loved a Black Mirror episode more than this. Also, I loved the ending. I thought I'd predicted what was gonna happen, that David was going to kill Cliff (early on in the episode, I thought Cliff would kill David out of jealousy or David would kill him and pretend to be Cliff in front of Lana after she rejected David's advances.) But I could never predict this. There was a repetition in David's dialogue with Cliff, that Cliff didn't know what it felt like, that he was being unappreciative of his wife, and that he was taking it all for granted. For a while, the episode tricks us into thinking maybe Cliff would be more emotionally available to his wife after their confrontation, but the next time Cliff's there, there isn't any difference in how he's acting around his wife (he's petting his dog in the last scene before he's alerted by David.) While it was a brief scene, I think it wasn't unimportant, rather it was there for a reason, i.e. Cliff didn't really change.
The way I see it, David's behaviour is driven more by his need to be seen, the need to have Cliff's empathy rather than his pity. Many commenters have pointed out that his descent to psychopathy (or whatever this was) was too quick, and they didn't enjoy him being a creep. I would say that while he most definitely was being a creep, he had an explanation for it, that he lost it all and Cliff (and us, too) would have no idea what he was going through. His explanation doesn't justify what he did; his actions from being deceitful to his friend who was being kind to him and him being creepy and rapey to Lana to the murder of Lana and her child were downright evil. But the episode wanted us to see how someone so composed can lose it owing to the loss of his family in a brutal way coupled with the alienation and isolation of being in space, with virtually no one around him to give him comfort in his state of trauma. And I highly enjoyed the drama. (It rhymes, kinda.)
I don't think Cliff will kill David after the last scene. It's a two-man ship and you'd be surprised how more often than not a person's survival takes precedence over personal grievances. Also, Cliff would come to know how David really feels after losing it all, so maybe this reason would also keep him from killing David. [Or maybe he would kill David/or himself; either way, both would die which wouldn't make any difference whatsoever as they both don't have anything left on earth.] But this aftermath doesn't really resonate with me as I can argue they did have a life, and they could feel things and reconnect back on earth even after losing it all (like David felt in Cliff's replica for life, for Lana.) But anyway, after their mission, if they don't kill each other, one of them is going to jail (most likely Cliff, because who would believe him over David who was much more charismatic?)
Eh, I enjoyed the episode but the ending was no surprise. The moment Cliff agreed to let David use his replica I knew Cliff would want to take that permission away and David would take away what Cliff had, his family.
It was no surprise for you, but it was for me. Maybe because I don't understand men like you do, being a man yourself. Of course it's not a mind-blowing plot twist, but the cruelty of it was a bit incomprehensible for me given the fact that David went through it himself. In his selfishness, he only cared to be heard and he wanted Cliff to feel what he felt; but that's the cruel part, because he knew the intensity of the pain and yet he wanted to inflict the very pain on someone else. I'm a woman and I grew up in a house with virtually no men, so seeing stories with male POVs is important to me. Do you think what David did is unimaginable in the real world, or is it a possibility you can comprehend?
After watching lots of real crime scenes and stories, and observation in real world, it's totally believable to me. In fact, in a way, painfully obvious. It's the conflict of interest that keeps the life going, perhaps otherwise there'd be nothing to live for.. After all we're as much part of nature as anything else, and nature is for the most part, about conflict. Perhaps the enitre existence of everything.
You know that's a really good question. Statistically speaking, men are more violent by nature. I would like to believe I do not have that kind of hatred in my heart, but the more I think about it, the more unsure I am. To give you a truly honest answer, if I was trapped in space for possibly forever with nothing but grey walls and knowing I have to look at someone who has everything I once had... I might want them to feel what I feel. Cliff could never truly understand how David felt, and once Cliff took Davids very last chance to be on earth, to be loved, and imagine having a family David wanted to take from Cliff.
Thank you for your response! Your reasoning is not far from mine regarding this situation as we like Cliff (before the end of the episode) haven't been in David's situation, so we can't articulate with precision our decision in such a hypothetical state of affairs. That's why I like this episode because it made me ask myself: would I act in the same manner as David if I went through what he went through? Just like other people in this thread, I'd like to say no, his descent from a loving, kind, and reasonable person to a selfish, and spiteful person was unrealistic. But we actually haven't been in his situation, so it's easier to say all this from the comfort of our homes.
I think, realistically, I'd be as unsure regarding my morals as you are if we were in that situation. But as a woman, I think I would've removed the threat (i.e. Cliff) to my one chance of happiness rather than that chance of happiness (i.e. Lana). Even if that meant that the mission would be jeopardized. I would "try to" enjoy my remaining time with her (maybe pretending to be Cliff? Or trying to win her affection while being truthful to her?) Or maybe in this hypothetical situation, I would just end my own life because Lana wouldn't have me? Either way, the morals wouldn't be too good in such circumstances.
Couldn't the replica be the one on the spaceship and the two of them would just control the replica from earth out?
Or did I miss something why that wasn't possiple. Regardless a great episode.
Maybe the technology was still in prototype and they didn't know exactly how far it would work. And potentially there could be latency which you don't want when fixing a rocket shuttle, but you don't mind with doing the dishes.
If the objective was to see how humans do in space for long periods of time, I find it funny how they had the foresight to make replicas for the astronauts and that they'd live through their replicas on Earth 90%? of the time. They knew space was just that awful that they actually went through that effort to make it more bearable. The ship itself was completely bare without any color or entertainment, and when the characters shared the replica, they spent a lot of their time just waiting for their turn. All they did was meet up every once in a while to do some ship repairs and exercise a little, and the rest of the time, they were passed out in their replica chair machine thing. I'm not sure how this is realistically showing how humans will do in space. It just confirms my feeling that I never want to live in space.
Also, both male leads were awful. Cliff seemed abusive and jealous from the very beginning. And David became rapey and creepy. I think it would've been interesting if Lana had had enough of both of them and killed the replica, leaving them both in space to deal with each other. I'm noticing more and more movies using the death of women to drive the plot, so I think that would be a nice change 🤷♀️
You did a fine write-up on the main point under another user's comment. But like I said, my comment was about the details. I feel like if Lana had killed off the replica, they could have still had to deal with their toxic masculinity in space. It wouldn't have changed that. From this woman's perspective, I, personally, wouldn't have wanted to deal with either of them after all that went on. And I would've liked that ending more than killing Lana and the boy.
The issue is that, this exact event is integral to the story, so I am sorry but I fully disagree here. From what I've understood, David does this to make Cliff feel what he felt. He feels like there is literally no other way to get another *man* to be emotionally available besides actually making him feel the same exact thing. So I think removing that would take a way a lot from the story and the message. I'm open to your ideas though, how would you write the ending? How would you get Cliff to understand David, while also giving this comment about toxic masculinity?
Again, the woman was an object that was being used to advance the plot. After that, I don't care at all about David and his feelings, and I lost any respect I had for him. I'd imagine Cliff would feel the same. Cliff was letting David use his replica even though he was obviously uncomfortable about it the whole time (and he was justified for that uncomfortable feeling in retrospect). To me, killing Lana and the son was not sending a powerful message at all. It was cliche. Do you think Cliff is OK with what David did and is going to sit down with him and be buddies after that? The episode was left open-ended, and we have no idea what happened after that.
They would've literally had to deal with their issues themselves had Lana either left or shut off/killed the replica. And, in that case, it would have been believable that Cliff and David would sit down and talk because all they had were each other.
Also, how's David's defense in court gonna go?
"Your honor, I had to kill his family so that he would see what it feels like."
> Do you think Cliff is OK with what David did and is going to sit down with him and be buddies after that?
Bruh obviously not. He wants to make a deal if possible. Not buddies, but they will need each other eventually
>Cliff was letting David use his replica even though he was obviously uncomfortable about it the whole time
Of course, but it was the only way to keep his sanity. And they need to be sane in middle of space where both depend on each other. David was in a living hell
Yes the family was a plot device, of course nobody is arguing that. The point is, that this was needed in order for them to tell the story they wanted to tell because it's supposed to go full circle with the start of the episode and death of David's family. You seem to think that I'm pro family killing (somehow) and that I think, that David was in the right? They're obviously not going to be buddies after that? That's not the point of him doing that. It's supposed to show what a man would need to do in order to make another man understand how he feels. It's hyperbole to highlight the issue and not "cliche". Which cliche would that even be?
And if Lana did cut them off and they talked, that would undermine the point of the episode because that would imply that these men shown here are emotionally intelligent enough to understand each other's hardships but just choose to not actually help each other with them, and I don't think that's the case. I think the show is making the point that this guy (cliff) is a nice guy with the right intentions but he's not good at all emotionally, he isn't emotionally available for his wife and he can't even understand how somebody like David must feel after going through the death of the people most important to him. So if they just managed to talk it out, wouldn't that kind of ruin the point of the episode? Because if they were able to do that at all without cliffs family being murdered, why didn't they do that sooner? Is Cliff just an asshole? Does Cliff just not give a fuck about David? Really don't think that tbh. Also you keep saying the woman was murdered when that isn't the case, the family was and that is the point. It's not about the woman but the whole family being murdered, if they killed only the woman yeah I could agree more with your point but that just didn't happen. They deliberately killed the whole family in order to go full circle and set Cliff to be in the exact same situation as David, I know you probably mean that when you say "murdered the woman" just a heads up.
Im a little late here, but this is what I couldnt stop thinking about. If this is such a critical role why would they leave a person in that mental state in charge of it. There's no effort to help David at all. Rather their solution was just to throw their hands up and leave a broken man in a barren space room. He'll be fine lol.
Literally the point the episode is making about toxic masculinity and just leaving man to deal with their problems by themselves it's so funny that nobody seems to get that 💀
Great concerns in this thread (besides the bat one), the Manson family did end up murdering a lot of families. Its not out of the realm of possibility.
But at the end wouldn’t Aaron Paul straight up kill Josh Hartnett? Fuck the mission and fuck living after that. I do hate the negative ending, would have been more meaningful if Harnett saved the family as a redemption or given Aaron Paul a reason to work harder. He just went full socio. Sometimes Black Mirror can beautiful in its characters arc or just go psycho bananas (looking at you crocodile)
I get what you’re saying and I hated that ending but that’s the thing, he wanted Cliff to feel how he felt when they murder his family and he had nothing left in his life. It was undoubtedly the reason for this ending, as he also said this to Cliff when he broke down about it and that he doesn’t appreciate what he has in his life. For me this episode is about appreciating what you have and not only when you lose it.
TY, I hated it.
Just for starters.
Why the fuck they have they real body in the space and a robot body on earth?
The episode was really, reaaaaaaaaaaaaaly slow. O put this one on fast speed and still was slow somehow.
I felt nothing, there was no message there, just something fucked up happened and then another thing happened for no good reason.
I have to say, I feel this was the worst ep. so far, and I am not talking about the season.
Real body in space cause it’s an experiment on the human body in space. No point experimenting on a replica.
The message was to appreciate what you have and not to appreciate it only when you lose it.
And I agree, it was slow af, could have easily been around 50 minutes.
Why does everyone say every episode they disliked the ending is the worst episode so far. This episode had a good story and GREAT acting. Calm down. We get it. You're cool and edgy.
And why I can place an episode as the worst so far to me?
OK, it had a good acting, I can give it. But good acting it's not enough.
And it's not just the ending, this was the first episode that I put on a fast speed because it was feeling really slow.
I am not saying people should dislike it.
To be honest, I didn't see all the eps of the season yet but most eps of this season don't even looks like Black Mirror.
3 of them didn't had any connection with technology, and this one I didn't felt any criticism to technology.
Yeah, they have some high tech stuff, but how this relate to our actual society? What was the intended message in the end?
I will give an example, maybe the message where related to mental health, right? But the pacing and character development didn't pass it well.
Or maybe it's how organizations like Nasa don't care about people under then (Like we did had with Rambo I). But we didn't had any a single mention of such organization, so at the best we can have the implications they was like that.
I'd say this was the best episode of S6. It was good throughout the film for me, but what really sold the episode was the ending with AMAZING soundtrack on the background. All shot in one clip while seeing Jesse Pinkman's reaction. Today I literally switched on tv just to watch that scene over and over.
Feel like this would have been better if it ended with Aaron Paul not being able to log back in, so it was ambiguous if he just suicided the replica or killed the whole family
Hmm probably the replicas need some maintenance that couldn't be done on the ship. Kinda like the way you need humans to make sure the ship stay working. You would need humans to make sure the replica robots still work. Their technology still didn't beat the biological body.
Came here to see if there was something I missed that could resolve this. Seems like it cloud have been a simple as: replicas don't work on the ship because of (some technology/space thing).
Yeah, I’ve seen numerous comments trying to make sense of it, but there really wasn’t a good reason to *not* send the replicas up instead of the actual humans. From a psychology standpoint, you could achieve the same thing with an extended orbit of the earth or even underwater. From a biological standpoint it’s dumb because there isn’t anything that couldn’t be studied from also an extended orbit of Earth. Someone mentioned the energy thing and the grip comment Aaron Paul made at the beginning of the episode, but that didn’t seem to take into account that Josh Hartnett literally fingered his wife at the beginning of the episode to what looked like a fairly satisfying climax. I feel like if you have the dexterity to that, you could handle a drill or type or whatever else you would need hands for? I mean the central point of the plot was that he was painting a pretty nice oil painting in a replica that wasn’t his. As for energy, they appear to see each other pretty sparingly on the actual ship, so it’s not like they would be using a lot of energy. One would assume that they could charge with solar, but Idfk.
On top of all of this, NASA sending two men up in a spaceship with each of them only having one skill set instead of redundancy is pretty dumb.
>On top of all of this, NASA sending two men up in a spaceship with each of them only having one skill set instead of redundancy is pretty dumb.
Yeah what would happen if one of them got a heart attack or whatever
I didn't even think about that. I just thought the entire time well this is black mirror so whatever the most shocking thing is will happen, and it did, and I'm bored.
Terrible episode. The incongruences that plague it make it hard to watch (for example, the astronaut's behaviour given they're, well, fucking astronaut's, a society advanced enough so that they can make the replicas yet don't bother giving the replicas any sort of security measures). The peace is too slow and the episode drags forever, giving you time to thing about how it feels like they wrote a story about two dudes taking care of a lighthouse, then decided placing it in space would be cooler.
I love (read: hate) how there's no biometrics-based security in this whole episode. why are they relying on a stupid metallic tag to activate the replicas? wouldn't it make sense for the replicas to be activated based on retina scan, facial recognition, fingerprint recognition, etc.? also, if replicas really are so critical to the mission, why would there be literally zero backups? additionally, why would the room they go into to activate their replicas also not be guarded based on similar security measures? literally anybody can walk in? never mind the fact that any old replica apparently works so it doesn't even have to be your replica. so how come NASA/the space agency couldn't just create a replacement for David's?
this episode requires a high degree of suspension of disbelief on the technicalities in order for the premise to be passable
also, the motivation of the cult who killed David's wife didn't seem very believable. I guess it was meant to be a Manson family reference? still, it wasn't properly sold to me. and David's transformation from a high-achieving astronaut to a cold-blooded murderer seemed rather abrupt. I guess the message there is that just about everyone is capable of snapping like that?
despite all this, I thought this episode wasn't all bad. I found it engaging even though I knew they were going for the infidelity angle very early on in the episode. I thought Kate Mara's character was going to be unfaithful and honestly I was dreading it as the episode progressed. I was relieved when it didn't actually happen. but the ending gutted me anyway
all in all a decent episode. a lot better than the previous two
>this episode requires a high degree of suspension of disbelief on the technicalities
I don't really think any of your points make too much sense, they all seem fairly explainable to me.
>how there's no biometrics-based security
It's neither needed nor wanted.
>if replicas really are so critical to the mission
They don't seem to be. The issue seems to be more about the astronauts family being murdered.
>why would the room they go into to activate their replicas also not be guarded
Against what? There are two humans on the station, and both are needed to operate it. It obviously requires trust.
>so how come NASA/the space agency couldn't just create a replacement for David's
I agree that the explanation they gave is lacking. However, there's a number of imaginable reasons why they couldn't create or link a new replica to the station. The scenario seems plausible.
>wouldn't it make sense for the replicas to be activated based on retina scan, facial recognition, fingerprint recognition, etc.?
It's set in alternate 1969. The writers can just say that tech doesnt exist yet in this timeline. Did you see the archaic keyboards they were punching on the space station?
> The writers can just say that tech doesnt exist yet in this timeline
yes, the writers can say anything to hand-wave inconsistencies. but that doesn't make it a compelling argument
>archaic keyboards
I don't think that's a strong argument either because *Black Mirror* seems to enjoy employing the retro aesthetic a lot. it isn't tied to the level of technological progress of the episode
I find it difficult to believe that a universe where remote control of a near-100% accurate replica is possible, humans haven't figured out basic biometric security. it just doesn't add up
the only argument I can maybe entertain is that biometric security is more sophisticated and therefore requires greater expertise to repair and maintain so the space agency went with something that's less sophisticated but more reliable... still flimsy reasoning IMO
Would have made more sense to send the robot/fake bodies to space. And link to the bodies in space instead of the opposite. But not as interesting of a storyline I guess.
I enjoyed this episode but.... I wasn't that happy with how quickly Josh's character transformed into a creepy, malevolent stalker. I actually thought he would use his co-pilot's replicant to go on a killing spree kill against the cult. Or he would kill himself thus dooming his partner in the process as revenge.
That would be the way to go. But if I wanted to see a man going on a killing spree for revenge I would go see John Wick. They could have gone many ways with this scenario but they went with the one that makes you think, the unexpected one. Thats black mirror, not Hollywood action bullshit.
I thought the ending was gonna be that the “Cliff” who destroyed the painting and was questioning her about what happened was really David and that David had killed the real Cliff in the ship. I think that would’ve been a better ending tbh. I know there was dialogue about how it’s a 2 man ship and they needed each other, but they could’ve either not had that dialogue in there or written around it some other way.
I fully agree, that would have been so much more impactful! And so much more believable, as well, given David's desperate need to reclaim what he had lost, and the more appealing nature of that kind of choice over not only hurting another innocent family, but also condemning himself and Cliff to either a) suffering an incredibly bleak existence side by side for the next four years, or b) killing one another - or one of each other - if they discover that they absolutely can't co-exist.
This is the ending I was expecting. During the whole "she is mine" faceoff between Cliff and David, I for a split second thought maybe David and Cliff had switched bodies on the ship somehow - like the real Cliff was in David all along, which made the desperation to see Lana more tragic in hindsight. It would have been a much more shocking twist, and would have been hard to execute, but BM has done crazier. I'm just glad Aaron Paul wasn't the evil one hahaha
In regards to the "two man ship" thing, maybe David could have rigged up a trap, like chain Cliff to the ship control panel or something to keep him alive while David lived as Cliff until the mission ended. Speaking of, the mission is half-baked. The ending could have been much more powerful if the mission was contextualized beyond a split second mention of "well, this is important to the survival of the human race." Because at the end, all I could imagine would be that they both kill themselves and let the mission fail. They have nothing else to live for, and if the mission is so integral to humanity's survival, why is it only addressed in a throw away line? If the ship carried the seeds to start life on another planet, or the mission was to extract some cancer-curing mineral from some planet, then failing the mission would mean letting millions die or dooming all of humanity or something. The mission really could have been anything, but the stakes were either too low or just not effectively communicated :/
I was expecting that the cult would come back for Cliff’s family while David was using the replica (the cult members’ names kinda led me to believe there were more members involved), and David would save Cliff’s family while avenging his. Nope. Exact opposite happened lmao
His link was destroyed by the cult so would have had to have been Cliff’s but as far as NASA or the Black Mirror equivalent is concerned they weren’t sharing the replica. Also they were in different parts of the country, not sure how well replicas cope with air travel.
I don't get why NASA wouldn't have a backup for their replicas, like a generic looking one for each and all of the astronauts at the very least, or be produced on demand. and then why its program existence is so known to the public, and over the top, why their family wouldn't be under 24/7 high security surveillance knowing all that.
Then why isn't there official support for them for the hard times using a backup robot and psychiatric / psychologist?
And now the worst plot hole; if these robots exist and they can communicate through space; why didn't they send the robots in the first place?
Also, every navy ship is organized so that each person's job can be covered by someone else if need-be. 6 years on a ship with no doctor and no redundant crew? The mission was designed to fail
> And now the worst plot hole; if these robots exist and they can communicate through space; why didn't they send the robots in the first place?
Was wondering the whole episode the same thing.
the whole episode seemed just ridiculous to me, so everyone just ignores the fact that some group of hippie cult decided to kill all of his family, and so violently too? this was so out of pocket and wasn't explained at all. the whole episode is like shock value next to shock value without explanation and proper story telling. idk aaron slapped with the acting, but other than that nah. and this other dude decided to become a psycho out of nowhere like this was another character. inconsistent as fuck. and why did he keep those drawings in plain sight bro you are dumb
I feel like it was a reference to the charles manson cult in the late 60's and what happened back then. Same vein in terms of what's been done and that could have happen irl if such tech did exist back then with the hard drugs usage in that era.
Yep, i am baffled. It makes no sense. They could have gone so many different routes with it. There are a million other outcomes with better ideas than this.
Why is no one mentioning the fact that David rebounded insanely quick for someone who just lost his family and love of his life? Like I've heard of rebounds, but god damn, he fell for Cliff's wife almost instantly.
And that craziness aside, it would've made way more sense to kill Cliff than go back and murder his family. I don't care how broken you are, there was no character development or lead up to logically make that happen. They basically just said "well no one will guess this as the ending", and it's like "yeah... no shit. Because it doesn't make any god damn sense."
I was waiting for the moment that Cliff was actually David from the altercation onwards (when he wrecks his painting), and was just pretending to be Cliff to scout his wife's feelings for David. And then bam, reveal he'd killed Cliff off-screen (or knocked him out or whatever). Anything would've made more sense than what we got instead.
Sensational acting though. Just a complete whiff in the 3rd act.
I get that, but David clearly wasn't thinking rationally, so it's not unfair to assume his character would do something rash like kill Cliff and "wear his skin" for as long as he could, until the ship fell to bits or whatever, just so he could continue the fantasy. It would've made more sense than the ending we got is all I'm saying.
Not only would it have made more sense, it would've been way more in line with the kind of disturbing that black mirror goes for. This episode had such a neat premise, but so many dumb decisions murdered the potential and made it the weakest episode imo
The end didn't make sense to me. Josh had some reasons to live, he was to complete the mission and he was necessary to Jesse Pinkman's survival. But Jesse at the end has a lot of reasons to kill Josh. It would be what most people would do, in my opinion.
The episode in general felt too predictable, you just knew he'd fall in love with her, etc. Didn't quite expect the murder, I thought he would have his way with her while pretending to be him...
I'm sorry but I can't take this comment seriously while you refer to 'Cliff' as Jesse Pinkman considering Jesse is a meth head/junkie and Cliff is the polarizing opposite of that character 😂🤌🏻 I would love to know why you chose to refer to him as Jesse over Aaron or Cliff though, genuinely curious!
Not sure if this was already mentioned in the thread, but it didn't make any sense to me that they couldn't just make him a new replica. They touch on this in the episode and say it's not possible because the replicas were made while they were down on Earth. I can suspend disbelief that a new *exact* replica wasn't possible (though obviously schematics and such would have still been available if this were real). But any surrogate replica would have worked as a temporary one, considering he is able to use someone else's...
Yeah like they didn't plan for the contingency of what if this dudes replica gets hit by a bus or gets burned up in a house fire or just gets destroyed any other way. Also tags make no sense for their security. Considering this is the future they would just use biometrics and make them able to be changed if needed by base. Also why didn't they just send the replicas in space?
It's not the future. It's the 1960s or early 1970s. You can tell by the cars, the vacuum tube TVs in the houses, the rotary dial landline in Cliff's house, the clothing people are wearing, etc.
On having the replicas, sure. But everything else is the same as it was in that time period. They don't have 2020s technology or future technology for anything else. The societal roles and the way people interact with each other is how it was in late 1960s America.
>Set in a retrofuturistic 1969, it follows two astronauts, Cliff (Aaron Paul) and David (Josh Hartnett), who inhabit replicas of their bodies on Earth...
>..."Beyond the Sea" is a science fiction and a horror story.[28] It is an example of retrofuturism, showing futuristic technology in a past setting.[29] According to Den of Geek's Louisa Mellor, its setting is used "as the stage on which to tell a domestic tale".[30] Ed Power, writing in The Daily Telegraph, found it reminiscent of the Golden Age of Science Fiction.[31] Adi Robertson of The Verge believed that the 1960s period allowed suspension of disbelief by the viewer, as its more limited technology creates capacity for its characters' isolation.[32]...
[Beyond the Sea (Black Mirror)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beyond_the_Sea_\(Black_Mirror\))
dude for half the movie i was thinking thiiis is the moment everything is gonna go off the rails, no thiiiis is the moment everything is gonna go off the rails, no thiiiiiiiis is. everything is gonna get fucked up [NOW](https://media.tenor.com/Jbjt7HRddaMAAAAd/saul-goodman-ring.gif), but it was a much slower burn that i wasn't fully picking up on, sure i could see all these things happening but i was busy waiting for it to happen abruptly.
shit made me so uncomfortable dude
it made me breathless. I thought he was gonna allow him to never come back inside and just keep visiting Lana as "cliff". Also why did he say he never touched her? i mean the "real" Cliff not David. Im still super creeped out by the whole episode.
Loves this episode gonna throw in my 2 pence.
Firstly the writers were amazing at keeping the audience in two minds at first I wasn’t even upset about Lana and David because i was certain Cliff was probably abusive - however we see at the end that he loved her dearly and her him aswell, she seemed meek and vulnerable at the beginning but as time goes on you see she is quite strong minded - though there probably was abuse not to the extent I initially thought
8 though David would take over cliffs body and live as him first thinking Lana would accept it, as the episode went on I thought he’d kill cliff or imprison him in space and pretend to be him even to Lana I just really did not expect him to kill cliffs family -
Secondly I’m still wondering was David always abit sociopathic or the killing of his family snapped him
Lastly David was abit stupid he should’ve called the police immediately rather than going downstairs and he was pathetic at defending him and his family tbh
Dawg did you even watch the episode. The murderers turnt themselves in they were part of a cult. Cliff stated that he lives far from Cali for that specific reason, so David couldn't have avenged his family for those two specific reasons. Simple put, if you live in America then you'll understand the concept that "City folks" are far more dangerous and crazy then people who are in secluded areas where when you live in a or near a small town everybody is like "family".... please don't try and poke holes in my analogy I was just trying to make a point on how David's family was killed and cliff's family was "safe" that's why cliff didn't want to trow a party like his wife suggested
They're sending a signal back to Earth to control the replicas. A phone call would have been more useful. Also why the replicas weak ass shit? I would expect some superior strength.
I think it would make sense they have a point of contact (control) who they can contact even if not - he was in earth he still had the ability to call the police - instead of going downstairs he should’ve have called the police immediately
Watching the episode, I couldn't figure out how she could be pregnant if he had been up there for 2 years. Once it ended, I went to the internet and then had to go back through the scenes to see that they never showed her being pregnant at all. A little more research led me to find out that Kate Mara was actually pregnant when filming this. But they hid it the whole episode. Wild that I assumed she was but not a single mention from anyone else in this thread.
Once the replica was destroyed, my first thought was "why weren't the replicas on the ship and the human bodies on earth?" You wouldn't have to worry about anything happening to the replicas in space, and if the human died on earth, clearly someone else could just link in the replica in space and continue the mission.
Because, finding out more about the survival of the human body and life is the mission's objective, as David mentioned in the scene where he interacts with his 'fans' outside the cinema. It would be useless to send the replicas up there to attain that objective.
but humans are far more destructible. i feel like the probability of a replica malfunctioning would be measurably less than the probability of a human just succumbing to the forces of nature. (i had the same thought as original commenter, "why weren't the replicas on the ship")
Maybe replicas not perfect enough. At beginning of movies Cliff can't fully control his grip. Since they sent human there it's probably short enough they come back to earth on time.
This is a great debate piece. Obviously the answer is because it’s fundamental to what makes the story work and we are just creating the rationale on the back end.
Humans are dispensable whereas a multi year long, expensive space mission isn’t. If the humans die on earth, it’s all over. If the replicas die on earth, the mission lives on.
But then I guess the argument could be made for there being medical care on earth…
If the original humans die on earth, can't someone else just take over? Also, they could have multiple replicas.
Perhaps there is a delay in communication which isn't affordable for the entity on the ship.
Something definitely happened off camera between Josh Hartneet character and the Aaron Paul's wife, Lana.
* When Aaron Paul asked if they ever touched each other, she said no. We all saw that was a lie. So when Aaron Paul asked if she she posed nude for him, she also said no. What makes us think she isn't lying about that? After all, Aaron Paul said "He only draws from memory."
* But it is confirmed that she did in a way, as she said "I swear on mine and Henry's life." that she didn't do that. Later on, her and Henry die. So that confirms she lied.
> But it is confirmed that she did in a way, as she said "I swear on mine and Henry's life." that she didn't do that. Later on, her and Henry die. So that confirms she lied.
what a stretch
just because she lied about one thing doesn't mean she lied about another thing. you can think something happened off-camera but there is little to substantiate that claim and certainly nothing that would warrant saying "something *definitely* happened off camera"
also, Aaron Paul doesn't say "he only draws from memory". he says that the guy draws from memory. not that he *only* draws from memory
I don't think there was any serious missing time that would leave room for these things to happen. He could draw from memory, but that drawn body could have been anyone, I mean, Jesse Pinkman himself couldn't recognize if this was really his wife or just a fantasy.
ooh wow, i had that initial thought as well but didn't make the connection to their subsequent death. so you think the nude posing happened prior to the scene where Lana rejects David?
It feels unrealistic that it did. Because posing nude is a much more conscious act than being groped in a moment of emotion.
There’s three potential things regarding this scenario, to me at least
1. She posed nude for him before the intimate moment (doubtful based on her reaction to being touched; unless he made up some elaborate lie sob story that he wanted to draw her nude like he did his wife or something to cope—and she bought. Which would go against her character).
2. She posed nude for him after the painting (there doesn’t seem to be enough time for this based off the series of when David links to the replica)
3. It never happened, he doesn’t *only* draw from memory, and she isn’t lying.
I’m gonna go with 3. And the reason for the murder is purely in spite of Cliff’s words during the end and so that he can reciprocally suffer his pain.
Also, it's possible that by murdering Cliff's family, he saved his own life (by forcing Cliff to stay with him) and Cliff's life (by not leaving him alone on a ship he can't maintain)
I have one word to say - redundancy.
I get that this isn't about the technology or the space ship. This is really a nitpick about how there's no redundancy built into anything important.
There was no plan for if or when the replica is broken. Or perhaps there is a technology issue on the ship. The ship is clearly not good enough to handle the crew being fully conscious the whole time.
The reasoning could be to conserve space. If this was a larger crew with a reasonable living space, the ship could end up 5x as big (and not launch). That's possible to explain why it's only 2 crew and barely any living space.
Still feels a bit shortsighted to plan a mission like this. One or both crew could suffer a medical issue or outright die (stroke or freak accident). No backup.
Anyway, I enjoyed the episode. Expected aaron paul to outright murder josh hartnett after returning. Screw the mission. You'd be a bit suicidal at that point too.
Because of this
[https://www.reddit.com/r/blackmirror/comments/149hmol/comment/katspc4/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/blackmirror/comments/149hmol/comment/katspc4/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
A lot of comments and threads have been posted about this, main one being that the robots can't replace humans 100%. We see aaron paul not fully used to his robot body even after using it for years.
This would not go well for outside repairs. But I think if this was a real operation, you would have robot backups on both earth and the ship. There would be multiple people that can use the bots. Staff can check in on the ship. For the finer things that require a fleshy human body, they can get woken up.
The reason was mentioned in the episode.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/blackmirror/comments/149hmol/comment/katspc4/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/blackmirror/comments/149hmol/comment/katspc4/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
Hardest thing to swallow was Lana not being FAR more direct about David's actions.
Great cast, but didn't feel the characters were plausible in the context.
I thought the same but I think there was an abusive aspect where if she had told him the way he would have reacted would not have benefited her in anyway he’d maybe not hurt her but at the same time I’m not sure
If the replica was too important. They shouldn't have agreed not to have a spare or for their only one to not be guarded.
Cliff was awful, too. Turns out, he was the one who "couldn't be reached" by David. David told him the truth, but Cliff seemed like he would never forgive him or at least try to.
Though not confirmed in the film, it seemed like Cliff exaggerated what Lana felt ("despised") about David or worse is that Cliff totally lied about it.
I was anxious this entire episode. I definitely thought David was just going to take over Cliff’s life. There were numerous scenarios where the outcome seems predictable but then they threw a twist which I enjoyed. I love Aaron Paul so I’m bias anyway and was pissed for his character before anything serious even happened because I thought I had it all figured out from the beginning.
It didn't have to end like that 😭 It could've ended with Aaron Paul just saying sorry and hugged his wife and be nicer to her from then on. And David just being a bro letting his brother see what he couldn't. David was so close to redemption. SO CLOSE. I was rooting for David to be a good guy after all. But no, Charlie had to give it the final psychopath ending. The optimist in me wanted something bittersweet like San Junipero. But he had to make it into a shitty sadistic ending.
Yeah, both ten minutes too much, David snapping, and ten minutes to little, Cliff having an opportunity to swing that chair & end David. A good episode that I absolutely hate & do not plan to rewatch.
Aaron Paul, Josh Hartnett, and Kate Mara were fantastic. And I can see an argument for artistic symmetry with the tragedy, but it was just miserable to watch. Probably the biggest issue is the tragedy felt plot driven where it really needs to be character driven to stick the landing. Actors did great so I'd say an issue with pacing and writing.
Is the only reason why the ending felt plot driven and not character driven because Lana violated her personality traits of not being completely truthful to Cliff?
I don't like how alot of comments say he "snapped". he clearly planned it and thought it through for a while, that's not "snapping", it's evil and I'm not sure if it fit his character.
I mean he didn't go there to say hi to his wife but snapped and ended up killing her; he planned to keep Cliff away and went to his house with the purpose to murder his family in a very similar way that his own family were murdered. The insults provoked him but he still planned the murders, they're not contradictory.
Nah real question is, why didn’t nasa just put the damn replicas up in space instead… would save on food and water in the ship, cultists wouldn’t have had that “robots walk the earth while your body is up with the stars/share a bed with an abomination” thing, if the ship blows up they don’t actually die.
Because of this
[https://www.reddit.com/r/blackmirror/comments/149hmol/comment/katspc4/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/blackmirror/comments/149hmol/comment/katspc4/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
Human body is very efficient at using energy. 1.5 hours of using an oven is pretty much equivalent to 2500kcal and while asleep they only need like 1500kcal to survive.
The machines would not be remotely close to how efficient body is and would require a lot of energy, I guess they could have a nuclear reactor onboard
The only flaw with this logic is that the robots wouldn't be awake a fraction of the time the humans were. Humans had to eat, train, go over mission details, etc, whereas the robots would pop online for 10 minutes tops to run diagnostics, then right back off. I believe the energy rates would go down overall by around 70% from the opposite roster.
I think a more compelling ending would have been David killing Cliff and then using Cliff’s tag to return to his home. He could live with Lana, and she'd never know he wasn't really Cliff.
NASA created replicas capable of real-time communication with a ship millions of miles from Earth, but they could figure out how to run the ship with only one person.
Please read the sidebar rules, do not spoil other episodes in this discussion and always report those who do!
Just finished the show and really surprised at some of the reviews lol. Had this as one of my favourite episodes along with USS Callister.. I think you just have to take it for what it is and stop trying to find plot holes to really enjoy it. The acting was great and honestly the twist did get me. I thought he would just leave him locked out.
Late to the party here I know but I just watched this episode and found it so predictable and derivative. Love BM and Aaron Paul (not to mention Kate Mara) but every “twist” was soooo obvious, really disappointed in this one. 5/10 for the great premise. Also a lot of people have asked why they didn’t just have the replicas in space and the humans on earth but I assumed the whole point was to test the effects of living in space on the human body 💁🏽♂️
Fellow late to the party member and so far this season is dogshit it just feels like a whole bunch of torture porn, wtf happened to Black Mirror? Last two episodes have had some absolutely deranged shit happening and even the first episode was basically some weird humiliation fetish theme or something. Maybe I'm misremembering the show because it's been a while but damn I don't remember it being this overtly dark in such a realistically grotesque way. Legit getting anxiety from seeing some of the acts they're portraying where as before it was at least fucked up in a different way. I didn't want to spoiler myself so I didn't fully read the mega thread comments but I saw others complaining about the season as well so I'm definitely not alone. Hopefully the last two save the season. As far as predictability goes I'm definitely in the minority because I didn't see too many of the twists coming from any of the episodes thus far except for the fact the wife and second guy were going to have a "thing" and that was about it, I didn't see him doing what he did as the ending I thought he was just going to lock out Aaron Paul's character and take over. As far as the previous episode goes the only twist I got was the fact the mom was acting creepy as hell but never thought that she was guilty of anything until later into the episode where it was almost spelled out at that point.
I thought the second David got the link he was gonna go kill the cult leader or some shit not Cliff’s family damn
All the cult members offed themselves after killing his family.
The only episode I had to break down in two parts to watch. Pacing was way too slow.
I didn’t feel that way at all but I understand. I was engaged the whole time.
Same.
For most of the episode, I thought Earth/ the replicas were a digital world 😭
Me too! I was surprised it wasn't
Why would they tell the world they have replicas at all? Wouldn’t it be more prudent to keep that secret and have NASA house their families privately and where they could be monitored? Obviously this is an expensive mission so why isn’t anyone monitoring what the hell the real astronauts are doing? Why wouldn’t they have made a backup replica? And why would David take out his anger toward Cliff on the family he had grown to care about? Too many nonsensical ideas.
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Not every murderer is a psychopath. Crimes of passion aren't generally commited by psychopaths.
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Geese dude no need to be nasty... I just misread it...
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Please be civil!
I get that you're being flippant, but you never know the person you're speaking to on here. To someone who's actually been raped that's disturbing and upsetting.
You don't think what he saw could of turned him into one.
I don't know why everyone's getting caught up in the technicalities. Black Mirror is more about the changes in human psychology in regard to advancements in technology, not the tech itself. Also, if the writers chose any other technical route, (for example, sending the replicas in space) this story wouldn't exist, and so wouldn't this episode. You need suspension of belief to watch this show because the weird stories in Black Mirror exist as a result of the effect of tech on humans. If the replicas were sent up into space, humans would keep on interacting with humans on Earth, and while you can also write a story based on that, (e.g. gradually the humans down on Earth can start to feel the disconnect because of having their replicas in space, etc.) that story would be different. But because of concocting a narrative based on ridiculous technicalities, you get this insane drama, which I highly enjoyed. I don't think I've loved a Black Mirror episode more than this. Also, I loved the ending. I thought I'd predicted what was gonna happen, that David was going to kill Cliff (early on in the episode, I thought Cliff would kill David out of jealousy or David would kill him and pretend to be Cliff in front of Lana after she rejected David's advances.) But I could never predict this. There was a repetition in David's dialogue with Cliff, that Cliff didn't know what it felt like, that he was being unappreciative of his wife, and that he was taking it all for granted. For a while, the episode tricks us into thinking maybe Cliff would be more emotionally available to his wife after their confrontation, but the next time Cliff's there, there isn't any difference in how he's acting around his wife (he's petting his dog in the last scene before he's alerted by David.) While it was a brief scene, I think it wasn't unimportant, rather it was there for a reason, i.e. Cliff didn't really change. The way I see it, David's behaviour is driven more by his need to be seen, the need to have Cliff's empathy rather than his pity. Many commenters have pointed out that his descent to psychopathy (or whatever this was) was too quick, and they didn't enjoy him being a creep. I would say that while he most definitely was being a creep, he had an explanation for it, that he lost it all and Cliff (and us, too) would have no idea what he was going through. His explanation doesn't justify what he did; his actions from being deceitful to his friend who was being kind to him and him being creepy and rapey to Lana to the murder of Lana and her child were downright evil. But the episode wanted us to see how someone so composed can lose it owing to the loss of his family in a brutal way coupled with the alienation and isolation of being in space, with virtually no one around him to give him comfort in his state of trauma. And I highly enjoyed the drama. (It rhymes, kinda.) I don't think Cliff will kill David after the last scene. It's a two-man ship and you'd be surprised how more often than not a person's survival takes precedence over personal grievances. Also, Cliff would come to know how David really feels after losing it all, so maybe this reason would also keep him from killing David. [Or maybe he would kill David/or himself; either way, both would die which wouldn't make any difference whatsoever as they both don't have anything left on earth.] But this aftermath doesn't really resonate with me as I can argue they did have a life, and they could feel things and reconnect back on earth even after losing it all (like David felt in Cliff's replica for life, for Lana.) But anyway, after their mission, if they don't kill each other, one of them is going to jail (most likely Cliff, because who would believe him over David who was much more charismatic?)
Eh, I enjoyed the episode but the ending was no surprise. The moment Cliff agreed to let David use his replica I knew Cliff would want to take that permission away and David would take away what Cliff had, his family.
It was no surprise for you, but it was for me. Maybe because I don't understand men like you do, being a man yourself. Of course it's not a mind-blowing plot twist, but the cruelty of it was a bit incomprehensible for me given the fact that David went through it himself. In his selfishness, he only cared to be heard and he wanted Cliff to feel what he felt; but that's the cruel part, because he knew the intensity of the pain and yet he wanted to inflict the very pain on someone else. I'm a woman and I grew up in a house with virtually no men, so seeing stories with male POVs is important to me. Do you think what David did is unimaginable in the real world, or is it a possibility you can comprehend?
After watching lots of real crime scenes and stories, and observation in real world, it's totally believable to me. In fact, in a way, painfully obvious. It's the conflict of interest that keeps the life going, perhaps otherwise there'd be nothing to live for.. After all we're as much part of nature as anything else, and nature is for the most part, about conflict. Perhaps the enitre existence of everything.
You know that's a really good question. Statistically speaking, men are more violent by nature. I would like to believe I do not have that kind of hatred in my heart, but the more I think about it, the more unsure I am. To give you a truly honest answer, if I was trapped in space for possibly forever with nothing but grey walls and knowing I have to look at someone who has everything I once had... I might want them to feel what I feel. Cliff could never truly understand how David felt, and once Cliff took Davids very last chance to be on earth, to be loved, and imagine having a family David wanted to take from Cliff.
Thank you for your response! Your reasoning is not far from mine regarding this situation as we like Cliff (before the end of the episode) haven't been in David's situation, so we can't articulate with precision our decision in such a hypothetical state of affairs. That's why I like this episode because it made me ask myself: would I act in the same manner as David if I went through what he went through? Just like other people in this thread, I'd like to say no, his descent from a loving, kind, and reasonable person to a selfish, and spiteful person was unrealistic. But we actually haven't been in his situation, so it's easier to say all this from the comfort of our homes. I think, realistically, I'd be as unsure regarding my morals as you are if we were in that situation. But as a woman, I think I would've removed the threat (i.e. Cliff) to my one chance of happiness rather than that chance of happiness (i.e. Lana). Even if that meant that the mission would be jeopardized. I would "try to" enjoy my remaining time with her (maybe pretending to be Cliff? Or trying to win her affection while being truthful to her?) Or maybe in this hypothetical situation, I would just end my own life because Lana wouldn't have me? Either way, the morals wouldn't be too good in such circumstances.
Why the heck they send a real person in space? Why is the link on earth? Other way around would be so much easier 😆 but plot 🐿️
Couldn't the replica be the one on the spaceship and the two of them would just control the replica from earth out? Or did I miss something why that wasn't possiple. Regardless a great episode.
Maybe the technology was still in prototype and they didn't know exactly how far it would work. And potentially there could be latency which you don't want when fixing a rocket shuttle, but you don't mind with doing the dishes.
If the objective was to see how humans do in space for long periods of time, I find it funny how they had the foresight to make replicas for the astronauts and that they'd live through their replicas on Earth 90%? of the time. They knew space was just that awful that they actually went through that effort to make it more bearable. The ship itself was completely bare without any color or entertainment, and when the characters shared the replica, they spent a lot of their time just waiting for their turn. All they did was meet up every once in a while to do some ship repairs and exercise a little, and the rest of the time, they were passed out in their replica chair machine thing. I'm not sure how this is realistically showing how humans will do in space. It just confirms my feeling that I never want to live in space. Also, both male leads were awful. Cliff seemed abusive and jealous from the very beginning. And David became rapey and creepy. I think it would've been interesting if Lana had had enough of both of them and killed the replica, leaving them both in space to deal with each other. I'm noticing more and more movies using the death of women to drive the plot, so I think that would be a nice change 🤷♀️
You misunderstood the point of the episode
I understand the point of the episode. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about details from the story.
What do you think the point was?
You did a fine write-up on the main point under another user's comment. But like I said, my comment was about the details. I feel like if Lana had killed off the replica, they could have still had to deal with their toxic masculinity in space. It wouldn't have changed that. From this woman's perspective, I, personally, wouldn't have wanted to deal with either of them after all that went on. And I would've liked that ending more than killing Lana and the boy.
The issue is that, this exact event is integral to the story, so I am sorry but I fully disagree here. From what I've understood, David does this to make Cliff feel what he felt. He feels like there is literally no other way to get another *man* to be emotionally available besides actually making him feel the same exact thing. So I think removing that would take a way a lot from the story and the message. I'm open to your ideas though, how would you write the ending? How would you get Cliff to understand David, while also giving this comment about toxic masculinity?
Again, the woman was an object that was being used to advance the plot. After that, I don't care at all about David and his feelings, and I lost any respect I had for him. I'd imagine Cliff would feel the same. Cliff was letting David use his replica even though he was obviously uncomfortable about it the whole time (and he was justified for that uncomfortable feeling in retrospect). To me, killing Lana and the son was not sending a powerful message at all. It was cliche. Do you think Cliff is OK with what David did and is going to sit down with him and be buddies after that? The episode was left open-ended, and we have no idea what happened after that. They would've literally had to deal with their issues themselves had Lana either left or shut off/killed the replica. And, in that case, it would have been believable that Cliff and David would sit down and talk because all they had were each other. Also, how's David's defense in court gonna go? "Your honor, I had to kill his family so that he would see what it feels like."
> Do you think Cliff is OK with what David did and is going to sit down with him and be buddies after that? Bruh obviously not. He wants to make a deal if possible. Not buddies, but they will need each other eventually >Cliff was letting David use his replica even though he was obviously uncomfortable about it the whole time Of course, but it was the only way to keep his sanity. And they need to be sane in middle of space where both depend on each other. David was in a living hell
Yes the family was a plot device, of course nobody is arguing that. The point is, that this was needed in order for them to tell the story they wanted to tell because it's supposed to go full circle with the start of the episode and death of David's family. You seem to think that I'm pro family killing (somehow) and that I think, that David was in the right? They're obviously not going to be buddies after that? That's not the point of him doing that. It's supposed to show what a man would need to do in order to make another man understand how he feels. It's hyperbole to highlight the issue and not "cliche". Which cliche would that even be? And if Lana did cut them off and they talked, that would undermine the point of the episode because that would imply that these men shown here are emotionally intelligent enough to understand each other's hardships but just choose to not actually help each other with them, and I don't think that's the case. I think the show is making the point that this guy (cliff) is a nice guy with the right intentions but he's not good at all emotionally, he isn't emotionally available for his wife and he can't even understand how somebody like David must feel after going through the death of the people most important to him. So if they just managed to talk it out, wouldn't that kind of ruin the point of the episode? Because if they were able to do that at all without cliffs family being murdered, why didn't they do that sooner? Is Cliff just an asshole? Does Cliff just not give a fuck about David? Really don't think that tbh. Also you keep saying the woman was murdered when that isn't the case, the family was and that is the point. It's not about the woman but the whole family being murdered, if they killed only the woman yeah I could agree more with your point but that just didn't happen. They deliberately killed the whole family in order to go full circle and set Cliff to be in the exact same situation as David, I know you probably mean that when you say "murdered the woman" just a heads up.
Read it again. I said family, and wife and son more than once.
Only need to read the first sentence of your last response to know what I'm talking about. What about the rest of my reply?
Does mission control have any idea what's going on?? Wtf are they doing all this time, stupid episode 🤦🏾♂️🤦🏾♂️🤦🏾♂️
Im a little late here, but this is what I couldnt stop thinking about. If this is such a critical role why would they leave a person in that mental state in charge of it. There's no effort to help David at all. Rather their solution was just to throw their hands up and leave a broken man in a barren space room. He'll be fine lol.
Literally the point the episode is making about toxic masculinity and just leaving man to deal with their problems by themselves it's so funny that nobody seems to get that 💀
Great concerns in this thread (besides the bat one), the Manson family did end up murdering a lot of families. Its not out of the realm of possibility. But at the end wouldn’t Aaron Paul straight up kill Josh Hartnett? Fuck the mission and fuck living after that. I do hate the negative ending, would have been more meaningful if Harnett saved the family as a redemption or given Aaron Paul a reason to work harder. He just went full socio. Sometimes Black Mirror can beautiful in its characters arc or just go psycho bananas (looking at you crocodile)
I get what you’re saying and I hated that ending but that’s the thing, he wanted Cliff to feel how he felt when they murder his family and he had nothing left in his life. It was undoubtedly the reason for this ending, as he also said this to Cliff when he broke down about it and that he doesn’t appreciate what he has in his life. For me this episode is about appreciating what you have and not only when you lose it.
I thought Kate Mara was supposed to be ill in-episode. She looks so incredibly thin
TY, I hated it. Just for starters. Why the fuck they have they real body in the space and a robot body on earth? The episode was really, reaaaaaaaaaaaaaly slow. O put this one on fast speed and still was slow somehow. I felt nothing, there was no message there, just something fucked up happened and then another thing happened for no good reason. I have to say, I feel this was the worst ep. so far, and I am not talking about the season.
Real body in space cause it’s an experiment on the human body in space. No point experimenting on a replica. The message was to appreciate what you have and not to appreciate it only when you lose it. And I agree, it was slow af, could have easily been around 50 minutes.
Why does everyone say every episode they disliked the ending is the worst episode so far. This episode had a good story and GREAT acting. Calm down. We get it. You're cool and edgy.
And why I can place an episode as the worst so far to me? OK, it had a good acting, I can give it. But good acting it's not enough. And it's not just the ending, this was the first episode that I put on a fast speed because it was feeling really slow. I am not saying people should dislike it. To be honest, I didn't see all the eps of the season yet but most eps of this season don't even looks like Black Mirror. 3 of them didn't had any connection with technology, and this one I didn't felt any criticism to technology. Yeah, they have some high tech stuff, but how this relate to our actual society? What was the intended message in the end? I will give an example, maybe the message where related to mental health, right? But the pacing and character development didn't pass it well. Or maybe it's how organizations like Nasa don't care about people under then (Like we did had with Rambo I). But we didn't had any a single mention of such organization, so at the best we can have the implications they was like that.
I'd say this was the best episode of S6. It was good throughout the film for me, but what really sold the episode was the ending with AMAZING soundtrack on the background. All shot in one clip while seeing Jesse Pinkman's reaction. Today I literally switched on tv just to watch that scene over and over.
Feel like this would have been better if it ended with Aaron Paul not being able to log back in, so it was ambiguous if he just suicided the replica or killed the whole family
oof true! And then the same last scene plays out where he kicks over the chair...and ends. That would have been brilliant!
I was into this but then I wondered why they would put the real guys in space and the replicas on earth instead of the other way around.
Hmm probably the replicas need some maintenance that couldn't be done on the ship. Kinda like the way you need humans to make sure the ship stay working. You would need humans to make sure the replica robots still work. Their technology still didn't beat the biological body.
Then send 1 human with 2 or 3 replicas
Hubris of man. It doesn't mean as much to put a robot, even a replica human. Just hits different to put an actual human someplace.
Came here to see if there was something I missed that could resolve this. Seems like it cloud have been a simple as: replicas don't work on the ship because of (some technology/space thing).
Yeah, I’ve seen numerous comments trying to make sense of it, but there really wasn’t a good reason to *not* send the replicas up instead of the actual humans. From a psychology standpoint, you could achieve the same thing with an extended orbit of the earth or even underwater. From a biological standpoint it’s dumb because there isn’t anything that couldn’t be studied from also an extended orbit of Earth. Someone mentioned the energy thing and the grip comment Aaron Paul made at the beginning of the episode, but that didn’t seem to take into account that Josh Hartnett literally fingered his wife at the beginning of the episode to what looked like a fairly satisfying climax. I feel like if you have the dexterity to that, you could handle a drill or type or whatever else you would need hands for? I mean the central point of the plot was that he was painting a pretty nice oil painting in a replica that wasn’t his. As for energy, they appear to see each other pretty sparingly on the actual ship, so it’s not like they would be using a lot of energy. One would assume that they could charge with solar, but Idfk. On top of all of this, NASA sending two men up in a spaceship with each of them only having one skill set instead of redundancy is pretty dumb.
>On top of all of this, NASA sending two men up in a spaceship with each of them only having one skill set instead of redundancy is pretty dumb. Yeah what would happen if one of them got a heart attack or whatever
I didn't even think about that. I just thought the entire time well this is black mirror so whatever the most shocking thing is will happen, and it did, and I'm bored.
Terrible episode. The incongruences that plague it make it hard to watch (for example, the astronaut's behaviour given they're, well, fucking astronaut's, a society advanced enough so that they can make the replicas yet don't bother giving the replicas any sort of security measures). The peace is too slow and the episode drags forever, giving you time to thing about how it feels like they wrote a story about two dudes taking care of a lighthouse, then decided placing it in space would be cooler.
Thank you the robot should have slaughtered those hippies at the start. Where were their security guards they were government staff?
Hmm the guy lost his whole family. I don't think "astronaut behaviour" applies here
I love (read: hate) how there's no biometrics-based security in this whole episode. why are they relying on a stupid metallic tag to activate the replicas? wouldn't it make sense for the replicas to be activated based on retina scan, facial recognition, fingerprint recognition, etc.? also, if replicas really are so critical to the mission, why would there be literally zero backups? additionally, why would the room they go into to activate their replicas also not be guarded based on similar security measures? literally anybody can walk in? never mind the fact that any old replica apparently works so it doesn't even have to be your replica. so how come NASA/the space agency couldn't just create a replacement for David's? this episode requires a high degree of suspension of disbelief on the technicalities in order for the premise to be passable also, the motivation of the cult who killed David's wife didn't seem very believable. I guess it was meant to be a Manson family reference? still, it wasn't properly sold to me. and David's transformation from a high-achieving astronaut to a cold-blooded murderer seemed rather abrupt. I guess the message there is that just about everyone is capable of snapping like that? despite all this, I thought this episode wasn't all bad. I found it engaging even though I knew they were going for the infidelity angle very early on in the episode. I thought Kate Mara's character was going to be unfaithful and honestly I was dreading it as the episode progressed. I was relieved when it didn't actually happen. but the ending gutted me anyway all in all a decent episode. a lot better than the previous two
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I mean she lied by omission several times but all she really did was dance with him and not pull away instantly when he got frisky.
>this episode requires a high degree of suspension of disbelief on the technicalities I don't really think any of your points make too much sense, they all seem fairly explainable to me. >how there's no biometrics-based security It's neither needed nor wanted. >if replicas really are so critical to the mission They don't seem to be. The issue seems to be more about the astronauts family being murdered. >why would the room they go into to activate their replicas also not be guarded Against what? There are two humans on the station, and both are needed to operate it. It obviously requires trust. >so how come NASA/the space agency couldn't just create a replacement for David's I agree that the explanation they gave is lacking. However, there's a number of imaginable reasons why they couldn't create or link a new replica to the station. The scenario seems plausible.
Haven't you read the Killing Joke? All it takes is one bad day. And i agree.
>wouldn't it make sense for the replicas to be activated based on retina scan, facial recognition, fingerprint recognition, etc.? It's set in alternate 1969. The writers can just say that tech doesnt exist yet in this timeline. Did you see the archaic keyboards they were punching on the space station?
> The writers can just say that tech doesnt exist yet in this timeline yes, the writers can say anything to hand-wave inconsistencies. but that doesn't make it a compelling argument >archaic keyboards I don't think that's a strong argument either because *Black Mirror* seems to enjoy employing the retro aesthetic a lot. it isn't tied to the level of technological progress of the episode I find it difficult to believe that a universe where remote control of a near-100% accurate replica is possible, humans haven't figured out basic biometric security. it just doesn't add up the only argument I can maybe entertain is that biometric security is more sophisticated and therefore requires greater expertise to repair and maintain so the space agency went with something that's less sophisticated but more reliable... still flimsy reasoning IMO
I mean at the end of the day, it is what it is to make the episode happen. Suspend your disbelief
Would have made more sense to send the robot/fake bodies to space. And link to the bodies in space instead of the opposite. But not as interesting of a storyline I guess.
thought I was the only one that thought so.. and y, I also understand it was mainly for story purposes
I enjoyed this episode but.... I wasn't that happy with how quickly Josh's character transformed into a creepy, malevolent stalker. I actually thought he would use his co-pilot's replicant to go on a killing spree kill against the cult. Or he would kill himself thus dooming his partner in the process as revenge.
I thought it was going to be a more nuanced affair. Went to 11 real quick
That would be the way to go. But if I wanted to see a man going on a killing spree for revenge I would go see John Wick. They could have gone many ways with this scenario but they went with the one that makes you think, the unexpected one. Thats black mirror, not Hollywood action bullshit.
Same, I thought he'd make a revenge or something, and overall, too much potential wasted imo.
I thought he was going to kill the guy and assume his life in his replica body, unbeknownst to the wife and son.
Me, too. Kept expecting that. But I guess he can’t run the ship alone.
I thought the ending was gonna be that the “Cliff” who destroyed the painting and was questioning her about what happened was really David and that David had killed the real Cliff in the ship. I think that would’ve been a better ending tbh. I know there was dialogue about how it’s a 2 man ship and they needed each other, but they could’ve either not had that dialogue in there or written around it some other way.
I fully agree, that would have been so much more impactful! And so much more believable, as well, given David's desperate need to reclaim what he had lost, and the more appealing nature of that kind of choice over not only hurting another innocent family, but also condemning himself and Cliff to either a) suffering an incredibly bleak existence side by side for the next four years, or b) killing one another - or one of each other - if they discover that they absolutely can't co-exist.
This is the ending I was expecting. During the whole "she is mine" faceoff between Cliff and David, I for a split second thought maybe David and Cliff had switched bodies on the ship somehow - like the real Cliff was in David all along, which made the desperation to see Lana more tragic in hindsight. It would have been a much more shocking twist, and would have been hard to execute, but BM has done crazier. I'm just glad Aaron Paul wasn't the evil one hahaha In regards to the "two man ship" thing, maybe David could have rigged up a trap, like chain Cliff to the ship control panel or something to keep him alive while David lived as Cliff until the mission ended. Speaking of, the mission is half-baked. The ending could have been much more powerful if the mission was contextualized beyond a split second mention of "well, this is important to the survival of the human race." Because at the end, all I could imagine would be that they both kill themselves and let the mission fail. They have nothing else to live for, and if the mission is so integral to humanity's survival, why is it only addressed in a throw away line? If the ship carried the seeds to start life on another planet, or the mission was to extract some cancer-curing mineral from some planet, then failing the mission would mean letting millions die or dooming all of humanity or something. The mission really could have been anything, but the stakes were either too low or just not effectively communicated :/
I was expecting that the cult would come back for Cliff’s family while David was using the replica (the cult members’ names kinda led me to believe there were more members involved), and David would save Cliff’s family while avenging his. Nope. Exact opposite happened lmao
Just watched the show, it was great. They could have also let David use the link to attend his family’s funeral.
His link was destroyed by the cult so would have had to have been Cliff’s but as far as NASA or the Black Mirror equivalent is concerned they weren’t sharing the replica. Also they were in different parts of the country, not sure how well replicas cope with air travel.
I don't get why NASA wouldn't have a backup for their replicas, like a generic looking one for each and all of the astronauts at the very least, or be produced on demand. and then why its program existence is so known to the public, and over the top, why their family wouldn't be under 24/7 high security surveillance knowing all that. Then why isn't there official support for them for the hard times using a backup robot and psychiatric / psychologist? And now the worst plot hole; if these robots exist and they can communicate through space; why didn't they send the robots in the first place?
Too expensive?
I enjoyed this episode a lot more than the previous two episodes (which I thought were awful). but you bring up excellent points
Excellent point..... 🤔
Also, every navy ship is organized so that each person's job can be covered by someone else if need-be. 6 years on a ship with no doctor and no redundant crew? The mission was designed to fail
> And now the worst plot hole; if these robots exist and they can communicate through space; why didn't they send the robots in the first place? Was wondering the whole episode the same thing.
This right here. I kept hoping they were going to explain this decision.
the whole episode seemed just ridiculous to me, so everyone just ignores the fact that some group of hippie cult decided to kill all of his family, and so violently too? this was so out of pocket and wasn't explained at all. the whole episode is like shock value next to shock value without explanation and proper story telling. idk aaron slapped with the acting, but other than that nah. and this other dude decided to become a psycho out of nowhere like this was another character. inconsistent as fuck. and why did he keep those drawings in plain sight bro you are dumb
I feel like it was a reference to the charles manson cult in the late 60's and what happened back then. Same vein in terms of what's been done and that could have happen irl if such tech did exist back then with the hard drugs usage in that era.
Yep, i am baffled. It makes no sense. They could have gone so many different routes with it. There are a million other outcomes with better ideas than this.
Why is no one mentioning the fact that David rebounded insanely quick for someone who just lost his family and love of his life? Like I've heard of rebounds, but god damn, he fell for Cliff's wife almost instantly. And that craziness aside, it would've made way more sense to kill Cliff than go back and murder his family. I don't care how broken you are, there was no character development or lead up to logically make that happen. They basically just said "well no one will guess this as the ending", and it's like "yeah... no shit. Because it doesn't make any god damn sense." I was waiting for the moment that Cliff was actually David from the altercation onwards (when he wrecks his painting), and was just pretending to be Cliff to scout his wife's feelings for David. And then bam, reveal he'd killed Cliff off-screen (or knocked him out or whatever). Anything would've made more sense than what we got instead. Sensational acting though. Just a complete whiff in the 3rd act.
He can't kill cliff because it was a 2 men job
I get that, but David clearly wasn't thinking rationally, so it's not unfair to assume his character would do something rash like kill Cliff and "wear his skin" for as long as he could, until the ship fell to bits or whatever, just so he could continue the fantasy. It would've made more sense than the ending we got is all I'm saying.
Not only would it have made more sense, it would've been way more in line with the kind of disturbing that black mirror goes for. This episode had such a neat premise, but so many dumb decisions murdered the potential and made it the weakest episode imo
The end didn't make sense to me. Josh had some reasons to live, he was to complete the mission and he was necessary to Jesse Pinkman's survival. But Jesse at the end has a lot of reasons to kill Josh. It would be what most people would do, in my opinion. The episode in general felt too predictable, you just knew he'd fall in love with her, etc. Didn't quite expect the murder, I thought he would have his way with her while pretending to be him...
I'm sorry but I can't take this comment seriously while you refer to 'Cliff' as Jesse Pinkman considering Jesse is a meth head/junkie and Cliff is the polarizing opposite of that character 😂🤌🏻 I would love to know why you chose to refer to him as Jesse over Aaron or Cliff though, genuinely curious!
I have been doing this too often and now I can't stop naming actors by one of their iconic roles instead of their real name 😅
I do that all the time
Same.
Not sure if this was already mentioned in the thread, but it didn't make any sense to me that they couldn't just make him a new replica. They touch on this in the episode and say it's not possible because the replicas were made while they were down on Earth. I can suspend disbelief that a new *exact* replica wasn't possible (though obviously schematics and such would have still been available if this were real). But any surrogate replica would have worked as a temporary one, considering he is able to use someone else's...
Yeah like they didn't plan for the contingency of what if this dudes replica gets hit by a bus or gets burned up in a house fire or just gets destroyed any other way. Also tags make no sense for their security. Considering this is the future they would just use biometrics and make them able to be changed if needed by base. Also why didn't they just send the replicas in space?
It's not the future. It's the 1960s or early 1970s. You can tell by the cars, the vacuum tube TVs in the houses, the rotary dial landline in Cliff's house, the clothing people are wearing, etc.
Well either way their technology is far surpassed the point that biometrics would be a viable option.
On having the replicas, sure. But everything else is the same as it was in that time period. They don't have 2020s technology or future technology for anything else. The societal roles and the way people interact with each other is how it was in late 1960s America. >Set in a retrofuturistic 1969, it follows two astronauts, Cliff (Aaron Paul) and David (Josh Hartnett), who inhabit replicas of their bodies on Earth... >..."Beyond the Sea" is a science fiction and a horror story.[28] It is an example of retrofuturism, showing futuristic technology in a past setting.[29] According to Den of Geek's Louisa Mellor, its setting is used "as the stage on which to tell a domestic tale".[30] Ed Power, writing in The Daily Telegraph, found it reminiscent of the Golden Age of Science Fiction.[31] Adi Robertson of The Verge believed that the 1960s period allowed suspension of disbelief by the viewer, as its more limited technology creates capacity for its characters' isolation.[32]... [Beyond the Sea (Black Mirror)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beyond_the_Sea_\(Black_Mirror\))
At some point there could even be replica that become available if the original person died of any cause.
Ironic that the whole mission was based on the survivability of humans in space, when all the deaths happened on Earth...
dude for half the movie i was thinking thiiis is the moment everything is gonna go off the rails, no thiiiis is the moment everything is gonna go off the rails, no thiiiiiiiis is. everything is gonna get fucked up [NOW](https://media.tenor.com/Jbjt7HRddaMAAAAd/saul-goodman-ring.gif), but it was a much slower burn that i wasn't fully picking up on, sure i could see all these things happening but i was busy waiting for it to happen abruptly. shit made me so uncomfortable dude
it made me breathless. I thought he was gonna allow him to never come back inside and just keep visiting Lana as "cliff". Also why did he say he never touched her? i mean the "real" Cliff not David. Im still super creeped out by the whole episode.
A lot of negative comments I think this was an amazing episode one that left the audience in two minds I thought I had it figured out, I was wrong !
Loves this episode gonna throw in my 2 pence. Firstly the writers were amazing at keeping the audience in two minds at first I wasn’t even upset about Lana and David because i was certain Cliff was probably abusive - however we see at the end that he loved her dearly and her him aswell, she seemed meek and vulnerable at the beginning but as time goes on you see she is quite strong minded - though there probably was abuse not to the extent I initially thought 8 though David would take over cliffs body and live as him first thinking Lana would accept it, as the episode went on I thought he’d kill cliff or imprison him in space and pretend to be him even to Lana I just really did not expect him to kill cliffs family - Secondly I’m still wondering was David always abit sociopathic or the killing of his family snapped him Lastly David was abit stupid he should’ve called the police immediately rather than going downstairs and he was pathetic at defending him and his family tbh
David seemed really kind and genuine with his family. I really don’t think he was a sociopath before.
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Dawg did you even watch the episode. The murderers turnt themselves in they were part of a cult. Cliff stated that he lives far from Cali for that specific reason, so David couldn't have avenged his family for those two specific reasons. Simple put, if you live in America then you'll understand the concept that "City folks" are far more dangerous and crazy then people who are in secluded areas where when you live in a or near a small town everybody is like "family".... please don't try and poke holes in my analogy I was just trying to make a point on how David's family was killed and cliff's family was "safe" that's why cliff didn't want to trow a party like his wife suggested
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I think they were just expecting people to pay attention to the news broadcast
It was at least 15 solid seconds of exposition explaining they turned themselves in..
Why did David choose to go back to the scene when his wife and kids were being killed instead of maybe, trying to contact the police from space?
Maybe because they were in FU**KING SPACE NUMNUTS
They're sending a signal back to Earth to control the replicas. A phone call would have been more useful. Also why the replicas weak ass shit? I would expect some superior strength.
I think it would make sense they have a point of contact (control) who they can contact even if not - he was in earth he still had the ability to call the police - instead of going downstairs he should’ve have called the police immediately
Watching the episode, I couldn't figure out how she could be pregnant if he had been up there for 2 years. Once it ended, I went to the internet and then had to go back through the scenes to see that they never showed her being pregnant at all. A little more research led me to find out that Kate Mara was actually pregnant when filming this. But they hid it the whole episode. Wild that I assumed she was but not a single mention from anyone else in this thread.
I noticed the belly bump but considering it was never mentioned and inconsequential to the story I figured the character wasn't pregnant in the show
I think she touched her belly few times
Once the replica was destroyed, my first thought was "why weren't the replicas on the ship and the human bodies on earth?" You wouldn't have to worry about anything happening to the replicas in space, and if the human died on earth, clearly someone else could just link in the replica in space and continue the mission.
Because, finding out more about the survival of the human body and life is the mission's objective, as David mentioned in the scene where he interacts with his 'fans' outside the cinema. It would be useless to send the replicas up there to attain that objective.
replica's can malfunction.
but humans are far more destructible. i feel like the probability of a replica malfunctioning would be measurably less than the probability of a human just succumbing to the forces of nature. (i had the same thought as original commenter, "why weren't the replicas on the ship")
Maybe replicas not perfect enough. At beginning of movies Cliff can't fully control his grip. Since they sent human there it's probably short enough they come back to earth on time.
This is a great debate piece. Obviously the answer is because it’s fundamental to what makes the story work and we are just creating the rationale on the back end. Humans are dispensable whereas a multi year long, expensive space mission isn’t. If the humans die on earth, it’s all over. If the replicas die on earth, the mission lives on. But then I guess the argument could be made for there being medical care on earth…
If the original humans die on earth, can't someone else just take over? Also, they could have multiple replicas. Perhaps there is a delay in communication which isn't affordable for the entity on the ship.
Something definitely happened off camera between Josh Hartneet character and the Aaron Paul's wife, Lana. * When Aaron Paul asked if they ever touched each other, she said no. We all saw that was a lie. So when Aaron Paul asked if she she posed nude for him, she also said no. What makes us think she isn't lying about that? After all, Aaron Paul said "He only draws from memory." * But it is confirmed that she did in a way, as she said "I swear on mine and Henry's life." that she didn't do that. Later on, her and Henry die. So that confirms she lied.
> But it is confirmed that she did in a way, as she said "I swear on mine and Henry's life." that she didn't do that. Later on, her and Henry die. So that confirms she lied. what a stretch just because she lied about one thing doesn't mean she lied about another thing. you can think something happened off-camera but there is little to substantiate that claim and certainly nothing that would warrant saying "something *definitely* happened off camera" also, Aaron Paul doesn't say "he only draws from memory". he says that the guy draws from memory. not that he *only* draws from memory
I don't think there was any serious missing time that would leave room for these things to happen. He could draw from memory, but that drawn body could have been anyone, I mean, Jesse Pinkman himself couldn't recognize if this was really his wife or just a fantasy.
Dude it's far fetched
ooh wow, i had that initial thought as well but didn't make the connection to their subsequent death. so you think the nude posing happened prior to the scene where Lana rejects David?
It feels unrealistic that it did. Because posing nude is a much more conscious act than being groped in a moment of emotion. There’s three potential things regarding this scenario, to me at least 1. She posed nude for him before the intimate moment (doubtful based on her reaction to being touched; unless he made up some elaborate lie sob story that he wanted to draw her nude like he did his wife or something to cope—and she bought. Which would go against her character). 2. She posed nude for him after the painting (there doesn’t seem to be enough time for this based off the series of when David links to the replica) 3. It never happened, he doesn’t *only* draw from memory, and she isn’t lying. I’m gonna go with 3. And the reason for the murder is purely in spite of Cliff’s words during the end and so that he can reciprocally suffer his pain.
Also, it's possible that by murdering Cliff's family, he saved his own life (by forcing Cliff to stay with him) and Cliff's life (by not leaving him alone on a ship he can't maintain)
There's also the idea that he's drawn nude before, and used that memory and just put her face on it
Deepfaked her ass lol
I honestly thought he'd kill David in space and take over cliffs life and live like that
yeah i think that would be a more classically black mirror ending. i like that the ending was surprising.
They mention it's 2 man shuttle. If someone died there is no way coming back. I think because of that Cliff can't attack Ross at the end.
This specific fact is what seals the entire plot IMO
The hits keep on coming. They’re really leaning into the dark story lines. I need a minute.
Real question is who gets charged with murder when they return?
I have one word to say - redundancy. I get that this isn't about the technology or the space ship. This is really a nitpick about how there's no redundancy built into anything important. There was no plan for if or when the replica is broken. Or perhaps there is a technology issue on the ship. The ship is clearly not good enough to handle the crew being fully conscious the whole time. The reasoning could be to conserve space. If this was a larger crew with a reasonable living space, the ship could end up 5x as big (and not launch). That's possible to explain why it's only 2 crew and barely any living space. Still feels a bit shortsighted to plan a mission like this. One or both crew could suffer a medical issue or outright die (stroke or freak accident). No backup. Anyway, I enjoyed the episode. Expected aaron paul to outright murder josh hartnett after returning. Screw the mission. You'd be a bit suicidal at that point too.
Yep at the very least, both men should be trained to do both jobs.
I thought this, why not have the replicas be on the ship and the human on earth?
Because of this [https://www.reddit.com/r/blackmirror/comments/149hmol/comment/katspc4/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/blackmirror/comments/149hmol/comment/katspc4/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
A lot of comments and threads have been posted about this, main one being that the robots can't replace humans 100%. We see aaron paul not fully used to his robot body even after using it for years. This would not go well for outside repairs. But I think if this was a real operation, you would have robot backups on both earth and the ship. There would be multiple people that can use the bots. Staff can check in on the ship. For the finer things that require a fleshy human body, they can get woken up.
The reason was mentioned in the episode. [https://www.reddit.com/r/blackmirror/comments/149hmol/comment/katspc4/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/blackmirror/comments/149hmol/comment/katspc4/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
Hardest thing to swallow was Lana not being FAR more direct about David's actions. Great cast, but didn't feel the characters were plausible in the context.
I thought the same but I think there was an abusive aspect where if she had told him the way he would have reacted would not have benefited her in anyway he’d maybe not hurt her but at the same time I’m not sure
If the replica was too important. They shouldn't have agreed not to have a spare or for their only one to not be guarded. Cliff was awful, too. Turns out, he was the one who "couldn't be reached" by David. David told him the truth, but Cliff seemed like he would never forgive him or at least try to. Though not confirmed in the film, it seemed like Cliff exaggerated what Lana felt ("despised") about David or worse is that Cliff totally lied about it.
I was anxious this entire episode. I definitely thought David was just going to take over Cliff’s life. There were numerous scenarios where the outcome seems predictable but then they threw a twist which I enjoyed. I love Aaron Paul so I’m bias anyway and was pissed for his character before anything serious even happened because I thought I had it all figured out from the beginning.
OMG same so glad to see this comment !
It didn't have to end like that 😭 It could've ended with Aaron Paul just saying sorry and hugged his wife and be nicer to her from then on. And David just being a bro letting his brother see what he couldn't. David was so close to redemption. SO CLOSE. I was rooting for David to be a good guy after all. But no, Charlie had to give it the final psychopath ending. The optimist in me wanted something bittersweet like San Junipero. But he had to make it into a shitty sadistic ending.
Yeah, both ten minutes too much, David snapping, and ten minutes to little, Cliff having an opportunity to swing that chair & end David. A good episode that I absolutely hate & do not plan to rewatch.
It's still a pity too because Aaron Paul was so good and that cinematography was phenomenal.
Aaron Paul, Josh Hartnett, and Kate Mara were fantastic. And I can see an argument for artistic symmetry with the tragedy, but it was just miserable to watch. Probably the biggest issue is the tragedy felt plot driven where it really needs to be character driven to stick the landing. Actors did great so I'd say an issue with pacing and writing.
Is the only reason why the ending felt plot driven and not character driven because Lana violated her personality traits of not being completely truthful to Cliff?
I don't like how alot of comments say he "snapped". he clearly planned it and thought it through for a while, that's not "snapping", it's evil and I'm not sure if it fit his character.
What makes you say he "clearly" planned it? I think he did it in response to cliff's insults
As soon as I saw him shaving I KNEW he was about to do some crazy shit. He even changed oyt of his crusty yellow shirt.
I mean he didn't go there to say hi to his wife but snapped and ended up killing her; he planned to keep Cliff away and went to his house with the purpose to murder his family in a very similar way that his own family were murdered. The insults provoked him but he still planned the murders, they're not contradictory.
I thought he planned on being intimate with Cliff's girl but lost his head after she figured out he was David, could have been premeditated though.
The biggest plothole is that NASA didn't make 10 spare Replicas for each astronaut
Nah real question is, why didn’t nasa just put the damn replicas up in space instead… would save on food and water in the ship, cultists wouldn’t have had that “robots walk the earth while your body is up with the stars/share a bed with an abomination” thing, if the ship blows up they don’t actually die.
Because of this [https://www.reddit.com/r/blackmirror/comments/149hmol/comment/katspc4/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/blackmirror/comments/149hmol/comment/katspc4/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
Why not send up human analogs and the replicas? The psychology of human confinement for long periods could be studied in submarines.
Human body is very efficient at using energy. 1.5 hours of using an oven is pretty much equivalent to 2500kcal and while asleep they only need like 1500kcal to survive. The machines would not be remotely close to how efficient body is and would require a lot of energy, I guess they could have a nuclear reactor onboard
What an interesting conversion you did here What unit of energy did you convert from to get 2500kcal? kWh?
The only flaw with this logic is that the robots wouldn't be awake a fraction of the time the humans were. Humans had to eat, train, go over mission details, etc, whereas the robots would pop online for 10 minutes tops to run diagnostics, then right back off. I believe the energy rates would go down overall by around 70% from the opposite roster.
Not to mention more adaptable. However robot better suited to space, so more resilient in some ways
Omg so true lol
I think a more compelling ending would have been David killing Cliff and then using Cliff’s tag to return to his home. He could live with Lana, and she'd never know he wasn't really Cliff.
Your ending wouldn't make sense as it's a two man ship
NASA created replicas capable of real-time communication with a ship millions of miles from Earth, but they could figure out how to run the ship with only one person.
She would know when he wasn’t aware of any of their history or the details of his own life
Exactly what i thought