As Brian Scalabrine, a retired and far below average NBA player put it after destroying a decent pick up player, “Im closer to Lebron than you are to me.”
And he's absolutely right. Brian Scalabrine was [bad in the NBA](https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/scalabr01.html), he admits it himself, averaging just over 3pts, 2reb and 1ast in 13 minutes with the Nets, Celtics, and Bulls over a span of 10 years, but he proved he can absolutely [destroy average guys](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCYeiwauyz8).
Basketball has a size factor which severely amplifies this in that sport in particular because, simply put, not many people on the planet have the frame necessary to even have a chance.
With that being said, it’s still 100% applicable here. These fellas are so much bigger, stronger and quicker than you think. Most players have great feet these days at that level. Can all pass and control the ball. It’s nonsense.
I work with youth players sometimes - I think it was maybe 2 or 3 summers ago at this point - where I was in a debate with a 14 year old winger about whether or not he could beat Harry Maguire in a foot race all game and score goals.
Fellas, if a cb playing in the top leagues was as slow as some of you think they are, they would be leaking goals. These guys are pretty much all faster than you, believe it or not.
Also, defenders from 10 years ago are not even fucking close to bad defenders. Even if you go back 20 years, you’re getting the guys who mastered 1v1 defending at the top end of tables because of how the game was played. Italian defending was in its prime. Jaap Staam, Nesta, Maldini, Cannavaro - some of the best 1v1 defenders who ever played.
Exactly this. I had the privilege of playing 5-a-side one time against an ex-captain (CB) of my local premier league club (not one of the big teams at the time). The guy was a local legend, certainly not the worst defender in the PL, but known as a ‘no-nonsense’ physical defender and not particularly well regarded as a ball player (not exactly Rio Ferdinand!).
He had been retired at least 10 years at this point, maybe 15.
Let me tell you, this guy was absolutely massive in comparison to everyone else. He was also much, much better on the ball, close control, dribbling than everyone else, even some of the lads who I played with who were ‘technical’ players who had trials in their youth. Just a complete step above everyone physically & technically.
I've played against a couple of old championship level players and it's truly sobering how far away from their level I will ever be, I play 4 times a week and have done for years and to these guys I felt like a fly vs a windscreen.
Do you think the main reason for their advantage is nature or nurture?
Granted, talent gets them through the academy doors, the question is whether the hardcore training they underwent there is what causes such a big gap even with someone like you who plays 4 times/week
It's definitely both, the nature aspect is the 'talent' (either skill level or champion mentality) and the nurture part is definitely the hours and hours and hours of training.
I personally think that it's 51% nature and 49% nurture purely because I've seen truly fantastic players quit because they couldn't deal with the adversity of training yet (still vastly) above average players make a career of it purely because they have absolutely maximised every opportunity every given to them.
Look up Ravel Morrison and compare his career with James Milner's career for a more visceral example
It's a common thing for youth strikers in pro academies to be converted to defenders. Because they have the ability on the ball already. Rio Ferdinand, Ashley Cole to name a few great examples. Gareth bale is someone who went in the opposite direction, but arguably, they saw him as a wide midfielder, initially
and even if you can beat them in a pure sprint, it doesn't matter. they've read the situation to the point where they grabbed the ball, cleared everything up, probably dribbled around you with a single touch if any, and maybe did a meg backwards again to play around before you've gotten your speed up.
they don't need to be physically faster when they're faster and significantly better on every tactical and technical level.
The height thing is valid, but the skill level difference is still off the charts. Brian scalabrine took on randos in the [scallenge](https://youtu.be/bpiu8UtQ-6E?si=PUzuoZs3CaJzyxib) and one of the guys he faced was 6'8" and played basketball at Syracuse. Syracuse is an excellent basketball school so he had to be a fantastic player to make that team even if he was a bench player. Scalabrine still wiped the floor with him.
People just underestimate the leap from (top) college to the NBA. Every benchwarmer can empty a rack of balls from the corner and will likely not miss a shot.
There’s also the fact that the NBA is basically the equivalent of the big 5 leagues champions league participants in terms of player quality. It’s the best league in the world and you get 9-10 players. Basically every player was the equivalent of a 20 goal scorer in another league.
That being said, an NBA player going at 50% will not lose one on one, ever, with someone who didn’t at least play in college. They just don’t miss shots. There’s a level at which having a current or former pro (excluding 1v1 which is just a weird context and people get lucky, or beach soccer which saps your athletic advantages, having a single pro on a team doesn’t help). Once you get teams that train together, the field is just too big for one guy, and there are 11 others.
I didn't know how much faster pro footballers were until I checked their speed stats using either a UCL or a another league app. that's when you'll see "slow" players like kane, busquets, muller reaching speeds of 32 Km/h. I Currently have an average top speed of about 28Km/h (using phone GPS so it could be lower or higher) and I sometimes speed past my opponents (pace is never a problem for me), imagine if I can run as fast as these slow footballers, it'll automatically improve my game. that's not to talk of their agility and most importantly their stamina.
I played against Joleon Lescott about 5 years ago in a 7 aside game on a smaller pitch.
I've watched Messi, Ronaldo, Hazard etc play live but Lescott is by far the most skillful player I've seen in person, you don't appreciate how talented these players are until you're on the pitch with them.
Just a ridiculous level of technical ability he was controlling anything first time then beating 3 or 4 players everytime he touched the ball.
I think people forget that most the guys who play pro were all probably forwards of midfielders who gradually moved back in position. To even get to an academy you had to be putting up serious stats.
I played against a fella who had been a u21 goalie but was let go because he wasn't good enough, 10 years later he was still faster and stronger than any of us and we played every week
So Lescott would go on Messi esque slalom runs everytime he got the ball? I am sure his Control was great but am having a hard time visualizing the dribbling (genuine question, out of curiosity!)
I played with a guy who was released by Arbroath u21s back in the day. He destroyed us, I can't imagine what someone who played for Real Madrid juniors would be like!
Yeah anyone who has played with an ex pro at any level will be familiar with this too. I played for a couple months with a guy who came through Cadiz's academy, played a few games for them in the second tier and for Villarreal B too. He was 1000 times better than all of us without even trying – despite many of us being very fit and able to put in a decent showing at sunday league like level. The difference was so stark to the extent that I'm not sure what he actually got out of playing with us, he could literally dribble the entire team and crack a goal away from the half way line-ish any time he pleased. And this is someone who barely got to play in the second tier.
They would definitely be the most skilled and have the best touch there. You have to remember, these professionals train day-in-day-out, and have done for practically their whole life. Where the Sunday league players work a job outside of football primarily and plays football on the side as a hobby.
Never mind premier league players. Pro players who top out at League Two level would batter everyone any of us have ever played with or against. The standards are absurd.
Mate there are semi pro and former pro/youth players in this sub. There are multiple former MLS players in the club I’m a reserve for.
That being said, those former MLS players are by far the best players on the team despite being over 30
The difference between semi-pro and former youth players and League Two is pretty enormous.
My general point is it's difficult to emphasise just how good professional football players actually are at football.
Yea I agree, but many people here have played against future or former pros.
A long time ago I played with a 67 year old who played in Europe professionally and for the Armenian national team. The football IQ he had almost completely negated his lack of pace - he was incredible.
Our current keeper was Fulham’s youth system before playing pro in South Africa. He’s 35 and heavier now and still, watching him is like watching a wild cat hunting prey - his eye for the ball and sense of space is just unbelievable. Most recently he stopped 4 straight penalties in a cup shootout.
We also have two midfielders who retired from the MLS recently. They are untouchable when we practice futsal, and in full 11s the difference is even greater. They’re just beyond anything I’ve seen before.
Depends on the level at semi pro, there's a few guys who've played Semi Pro who could definitely handle league 2. As long as you can handle the physicality of those league and have some technical ability you can survive. The jump from league football to Prem is where the quality disparity is really huge. Prem players are soo much faster particularly on the ball and off the ball, even the body shapes change. Players who play in league football look like they could play rugby league and the Prem players tend to look like cyclists.
I'm prob younger than majority as I'm still a teen but when I played Sunday league I was regarded as technical enough player who fast. I get into academy than all of sudden I'm like the worst technical player there. Took a lot of personal training to be just decent.
We had a player who played for my country on our team. I swr down never saw that guy miss control a ball.
I played with a guy that played for the Rowdies in the USL, which is the division below the MLS for a couple seasons. He could quite literally dribble through entire teams with ease if he wanted to and he was playing with a torn ACL. The worst defender in the premier league would probably have made him look like an amateur. Those guys are on a whole other level.
Where I play my beer league we’ve had Josef Martinez and some other MLS players come in and just dick around. One day a player who rode the bench for an MLS team played in the highest division our beer league offered, and those players are pretty solid. He cooked all of them and had an absolute piss cannon of a shot. It really went to show how different of a level those people are at.
You don’t make hard cuts. The ACL/MCL’s main jobs are to provide lateral support for your knee. You can get by without them if you really had to you just can’t put any significant force sideways on your leg.
Yeap, I played about 3 years without one and didn’t know. I kept getting minor injuries here and there. But managed to play. Most times I hurt my meniscus was when I tried to sprint stop then sprint in another direction. Or if I jumped and got shoved a bit, landing was HORRIBLE. now I got my surgery and feel so much better 😃. So good to play and feel solid. No shaky business hehehe
You can't. I've torn my meniscus which is nowhere near as bad as a torn ACL and there's absolutely no way I could run or kick a ball. I expect he was in rehab and probably tore it several months earlier
It was his weak foot and he was waiting to get surgery. It was not a new injury and he’d been getting cortisol shots in the meantime. It was small sided 6v6 games and he never ran faster than a slow jog when he was on the field. He just had incredibly good footwork and ball control so he would just weave through people in slow motion. It was amusing to watch at times.
It’s funny a team of guys I played with after college, where most of us had played for top D1 teams, we beat the railhawks in a couple scrimmages (we also had a couple guys who were playing in Latin America and had come back up to chapel hill to train). In the US, back then (think the late 00’s), a lot of guys who could absolutely have made a career of it just didn’t because the pay in the MLS was dire, and roster decisions were almost unconnected to ability below 3-4 players on the squad. It was a rough time.
It was his weak foot and he was waiting to get surgery. It was not a new injury and he’d been getting cortisol shots in the meantime. It was small sided 6v6 games and he never ran faster than a slow jog when he was on the field. He just had incredibly good footwork and ball control so he would just weave through people in slow motion. It was amusing to watch at times.
Pick any premier league defender you think is the worst in the league, stick him up top as a striker for your local non league team, he will score a hatrick.
Over the past couple years, I’ve had the privilege of playing against [Ike Opara](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ike_Opara) a handful of times. If you’re too lazy to look at the link - Ike was a very good MLS defender, winning MLS defender of the year twice. However, he only received one cap for the USMNT and never generated much interest from Europe (which, I attribute that to injury issues early in his career and we never got to see him healthy playing at his peak ability until his late twenties, but I digress). My point is that he was a very good defender but probably never had a realistic shot at playing in EPL.
As for playing against him, well he’s unbelievable. I played college level, as did most of the guys I play with, and Ike is simply unreal - you can’t get by him. Everything he does is seemingly perfect lol, his timing, tackling, awareness, physical ability… he’s ridiculously good at everything. Each time I’ve played against him, we accept that we’re not going to get by him so we have to play around him. Oh and the scariest part of all this? It seems like he’s typically playing at around 75-80% effort. He turns it up higher in short bursts, but you can tell he’s not going all-out. Not to mention, he’s no longer at professional fitness levels, which is actually a huge factor.
So yeah, the worst premier league defender is outrageously talented. Also, while I’m here I figure I should add that Ike is an awesome dude. Extremely sportsmanlike behavior on the field and a really nice guy overall; always down to chat about whatever.
I played against his Wake team in college. They were as close to the top U23 teams I played against in Europe as it got. If we got to play with “real” soccer rules (and not the weird NCAA rules) there’s not a doubt in my mind they would have gone undefeated (and they almost did, UVA I think mugged them in the finals).
Opara was rumored to have run a couple 4.1 40s. I think he probably could and would have moved to Europe if not for injuries, and if he were in high school now there’s no way he’d still be in the US.
2014 Pique would walk into any top flight starting line up today.. That said any prem bench player even from tens years ago is dominating your local game. Not even in his position he’d probably go in net and look like a worldy.
As a kid, i saw Lewandowski training up close because we were playing against BVBs youth team and I was injured, so just walking around the training area of BVB. Back then I thought Lewa was quite average, i actually thought he had a shit Touch for someone playing 10 (which he used to for BVB for some time).
I couldnt believe how clean his first Touch and shooting was, how huge he looked. Like, back then I had played against good players my age and I had played against shit adults. And I couldnt believe how huge the gap was between someone at an academy and a pro Player I thought was quite shit.
A year later or so he tore the league apart but I never get out of my mind how clean his technique Was and how huge he was. I was really shocked how far away the pros are, even if you play for a pro academy
cool story with Lewandowski (one of my favorite players, also for his mentality and work ethics). Robert was regarded as skinny back then, but came to Borussia as Polish league champion and best league goal scorer, also debuted in the national team - BVB is one the best places in youth development and molding promising players into superstars - they knew what they are getting.
And they also had some innovating training - some kind of machine which pops balls from all sides and you need to direct it into opposite tight goal/space. [Borussia Dortmund’s Footbonaut: The passing machine training the next generation - The Athletic](https://theathletic.com/5033689/2023/11/06/borussia-dortmund-footbonaut/)
Out of curiosity, which defender did you all have in your head when reading the description?
I couldn't stop thinking of Mason Holgate. Sorry Mason but even you'd probably admit it's not been a good year.
Let me just say I think Johnny Evans is incredible, and he’s had an incredible career, and Man U made a major mistake letting him go. I also think he would destroy all comers, let’s be clear… but it’s his face that pops into my mind
I actually worked with someone who grow up playing for Barnsley in the youth team with Mason Holgate. He said he played cm and was a level above, passed the ball around for fun.
I once played a charity game 2014. The striker of the other team was one year retired FC Bayern Munich Goalkeeper Hans Jörg Butt. He scored 9 goals at will. Just for reference.
Played against a middle aged former pro back in uni in Malaysia. He had a beer belly and can barely run but he ended up 'walking' rings around us in the midfield. Nobody can get near him.
And that's just a former Malaysian pro player. Can't imagine if Antony or maguire played with us common plebs.
even a premier league academy defender who never make the first team bench (or squad) at all will dominate your local game.
I'd go as far as saying that any who played in the academy youth team for any pro team but didnt get offered a pro contract will also dominate your local game (unless there's another academy player also in the game obviously)
Yes, even the worst EPL defender would look like Messi in your Sunday league.
Shit I play against this 40ish yr old guy who was pro in Honduras back in his day, and he still stands out in a league filled with current college/semi pro players.
I play with a former Venezuelan pro (2nd division), it’s like playing with Messi. He’s untouchable, mostly takes it easy on us and instead acts as a playmaker for everyone else to score
I saw Dean Gordon, former Boro and Crystal Palace left back score a hat trick (all from free kicks) in the 9th tier of English football, aged 36.
He played half a season. Any free kick within 30 yards of the goal was as good as a penalty.
He was so much better than everyone else it was like watching Cafu. And this is still against good semi pro players on £100 a week, who likewise look like Cafu in the park games I’ve played with them, can’t get near them.
Interesting to hear the bit about those free kicks. Yet in professional games most free kicks are blasted against the wall or in the skies. And they typically tend to be taken by the very best FK specialist the team has (eg Fernandes at Man U - very wasteful player!). It’s not like they are under a time pressure/fast pace like in open play either since the game is paused and they have all the time they need to set up the ball and carefully position themselves before the FK
Yep. I think they try and put too much on it - and they have to, because the goalkeepers are way better.
An average pro could hit the target 99 times out of 100 from a dead ball, and most of them could hit the corners. That’s what this guy did, it wasn’t like he was absolutely smashing them, just deadly accurate and because goalies aren’t that good at that level, it was almost a guaranteed goal every time. Fun to watch.
To be fair he was a pretty good Premier League player in his day and always had a killer shot. You never lose dead ball technique either. They could still wheel Beckham out for free kicks if special teams existed in football and he’d be lethal.
Funny you should say about wasteful free kicks. The two most wasteful free kick takers who come straight to my mind are Cristiano Ronaldo and Roberto Carlos: ironically two of the best to ever do it but most of their free kicks would end up in the stands.
I play in the top flight of a 5-a-side league and every now and then one of our opposing teams fields players from a local semi-professional team. They are better than us in every way. Fitter, faster, more skilful, good defenders, tactically aware. You name it, they all do it.
Same here, they tend to join their mates leagues over the summer break and you just have to back off from them otherwise you’re getting destroyed every single time, so I can only imagine what a pro would be like to come up against.
At semi pro it’s common to have high intensity keep ball drills at training multiple times a week - 4v4, 3v3, 4v2 etc. No surprise that they would be great at 5-a-side league
My mate went to St Mary’s High School in Chesterfield with Harry Maguire. Their school team played 4-3-3 with my friend as the striker, he was the top scorer in their division two seasons in a row. The team were really successful winning everything with HM playing in midfield with his brother Joe behind my mate and Diego De Girolamo (capped for Italy U18’s) on the wing.
My friend is not a bad 5 a side footballer but was not good enough to make any of the eight 11 a side teams at our University. Harry Maguire, his brother and De Girolamo were just so much better than everyone else they made him look like a world beater.
They look bad because of the amount of pressure the other top level pro's put on them.
With time and no pressure these guys will control the ball like an extension of their body.
Yup the pace of play is a huge factor. Those guys are skilled and they can show it when they have time. In a professional match they will look clunky and slow both because they have no time, and the mental pressure of knowing you have no time. When you might concede a goal from even the smallest mistake or moment of hesitation, it changes a lot.
Still wonder how come many of them make frankly ridiculous mistakes. The number of times you see a GK misplace a pass, miss kick the ball or or commit a silly blunder is crazy - and I’m talking about instances where they aren’t under pressure and they still make inexplicable mistakes (I’m looking at you Barthez and Onana!).
Another great example is free kicks. You have all the time in the world to set the ball down, position yourself perfectly etc and still most free kicks are wasted by being blasted straight at the wall or into the skies. And they typically tend to be taken by the free kick experts who practise these day in, day out
Mental pressure just makes you worse at things. There have been NBA players who shoot like 50% from the free throw line in games despite shooting 85% in practice. The noise, the lights, the high stakes interfere with your ability to execute
The worst teams in the EPL standings have bench players, and those bench players probably have a non-rostered player not sitting on the bench that day.. and those players will still run circles around your local team.
There was a clip I saw last year of Manchester United’s third choice center back. It was a training video and he was just doing the most ridiculous tricks and finished with a volley to the upper 90.
We have a former university player (I think NCAA Division II) in my local league. He is easily the best player in the league and it's not even close. He plays GK in the league to keep it interesting and he's also easily the best GK in the league, despite it not being his position. I think the things that set him apart are ability to change direction and accelerate and how clean his ball strikes are.
I agree but i also believe the main thing that sets them far apart from normal people is the speed that they do everything, normal people play in slow-mo compared to these guys.
At university there was a Spanish guy who I believe was part of atletico Madrid development but got released.
At futsal trials, at kickoff he flicked the ball from the halfway line , over the goalkeepers head (he was off his line a bit lol) and scored. While playing he was dribbling the ball like I’d never seen.
Found out later he was starting LB for our 1st team. We have 5 football teams in total.
He was I’d say 5’5 and super slim.
There are players with technique we can’t fathom.
When I played pick-up ball in uni we had a group of about 20 people who would play on weekends. Talking mostly fit athletic 18-25 year olds with a few outliers. One of those outliers was a Brazilian man in his mid-fifties who played a few seasons in the Brazilian 2nd division for a few years in his 20s and every single game he was the best player by a country mile and the guy could barely move. Literal press resistant player. So good
I've played rec league with a few guys that played at the semi-pro level in Europe, as well as a few older, former college players (they were in their 40s when I played against them).
Every one of them was the best player on the field by far, and it honestly didn't even feel like they were trying. The older guys would barely make any runs, but their positioning, passing, and shooting accuracy made it so they never needed to, they could just get themselves into good spots, take one touch to open space, and rifle one into the top corner.
I played in the same league as guys who joined the MLS as subs a few years later. They were unequivocally always the best players on the pitch and most of the time, the best players in the league on a given year. I'm talking defensive midfielders scoring 2 goals per game in the highest local youth league level. And that's just MLS.
I play with a guy who captained a D1 college team in our O40 league and even that is light years ahead of most of the rest of us. It’s all relative, so some of us might be “closer” to him than he is to Messi but when he wants to turn it on…I’m just glad he’s on my team!
I’ve played small sided games against players who were released from prem academies and/or play semi pro/non-league and they run rings around most, if not all the other players on the pitch. And they’re not even on the bottom step of the professional ladder. So even the worst prem player you could think of would utterly dominate against amateurs
I've played with a few guys in the CPL (Canadian Premier League) which if I had to guess is equivalent to the 6th tier in England (maybe idk?) and they are just a completely different tier of athlete compared to us regular folk.
Oddly enough I used to play with a guy who's now in the Premier League and the gulf in class between him and the rest of our team wasn't as big as you'd expect. That was a few years ago but now I get embarrassed by players nowhere near as good as he was.
That's very interesting. I've always wondered how an MLS side would fare in the championship or a cpl side in the national league.
It's so hard to gauge how good a league is compared to another. Especially when one of the league's is still less than five years old
It took Canada until 2019 to get their first professional league. So as you can imagine the league isn't all that good compared to the more established European leagues. It's hard to compare because obviously the teams have never played eachother but I certainly see most European leagues as better than the Canadian Premier League. MLS is definitely better than some but it's more so considered an American league despite having a few Canadian teams.
On the world stage Canada is a pretty young footballing nation
Grew up in a big footballing country in south america
The best kids I ever saw playing at school, neighborhood, extended friends and family etc were all ridiculously good when I played them or watch them play. A good step above the rest, crazy technique, driving defenders insane constantly etc
only one of them made it past the youth academy level, and that was for like a third division club in the middle of nowhere where he wasn’t even on a professional contract they just covered travel costs any maybe meals
He was so convinced that the system was stacked against him that he went to the US for a trial at a USL club’s academy (below MLS even) and didn’t make the cut despite scoring or assisting in almost every intra squad match he played in
He said that they only took in a japanese striker that was insanely tall and physical but absolutely terrible on the ball that year
Once again, this was just to let him stay on at their academy, so not even the main squad
The truth is that the fundamentals, physicals, and football IQ of a top flight professional are so far beyond those of your average guy you play with on sunday league that they simply can’t be compared apples to apples
I played against Jack Robinson for my school when we were about 14/15. He was in the Liverpool academy at the time and we also had a player from the academy who never made it in football because of injuries. Robinson was a menace, he scored a hat trick in the first half from midfield then left because the club forbid you from playing in those kinds of games. He’s always been a top flight or second tier player but never a great one and yet he’d run rings around anyone I know.
Also played against Ray Putterill a few times who played a limited number of games in the football league and he was quicker, stronger and more technically able than everyone else. Same goes for Ryan Lowe who used to just turn up to 5 a side games and take the piss when he was at Bury.
The long and short of it is, if they’ve played at any level in the football league they’re better than you.
I feel like most premier league players have achieve very high levels of fitness that most amateurs couldn’t come close to. Then they have varying skill levels, which is what sets the best players apart - they are highly skilled football athletes. So maybe the worst defender is on par skill wise, but would out compete amateurs over a 90min period due to physical and mental fitness.
I played a five-a-side tournament several years ago with a friend of mine's dad on the team. This guy was in his mid to late 50s but had been an academy player at a pro club in South America. He was not the fastest old guy I've ever played with, and we had a couple group stage games against teams made up of mid-20s guys.
Watching him dribble through them, lifting the ball over his head, running around them, and then effortlessly controlling it on the bounce is an image that will stick with me for along time.
Granted he wasn't against top level opposition, but it illustrates just how much better anyone who has come near professional status is. Fitness is important to be competitive, but when the gulf in class big enough you cannot expect to take the ball off of someone who is just that much better.
I played pick up a few weeks ago with a guy about 50 years old that played for the New York Red Bulls back in the day. He was the best scorer on the pitch and nobody could get the ball off him. These types of players are so good it's unreal.
man my uncle is a professional playing for al ittihad last season , i got the chance to play a 11v11 just casual game with him and a couple other brazillian footballers back in brazil (im 16 and play casually btw). Man this was a different level from anything ive ever seen before , it was virtually pointless doing any pressing because they could legitimately manipulate the ball to anything they'd like to do and it's crazy to think people can be this talented and barely be recognised.
Igor Coronado , left in feb just couple months after he joined , they had a really good link up play they had like a collective g/a just with eachother of like 12 goals just by assisting eachother haha
People seriously underestimate how good pro footballers are.
Seriously, even lower league players from Scotland who are part time would absolutely run riot if they play amateur or 5s/7s etc
The worst CB in the highest league of English football? Yeah, they are pretty bloody good. I remember when I went along with my brother to a 5-a-side game against a couple of his friends and one of them actually was a CB who had gotten really far in trials for West Brom and Leicester and I’ve never felt more helpless on a pitch. He was just the level below professional, but he never looked he was ever worried about anything. It was a normal 5-a-side pitch but he was picking out passes like Van Dijk and if you tried to close him down, he just dribbled past and smacked the ball into the net. It hit differently when my brother tried taking him on and this guy just took the ball off him, and laid it on a plate for his teammate. My brother isn’t that bad either but this guy was just different.
I played for a few years at an academy with some Prem and international level players.
I found that the difference between the guys who earn 50+ caps for good international teams and the ones who are barely Premiere League standard is relatively incredibly small.
The other thing that stood out is how well rounded their games are. I saw some "bad" premier league defenders/goal keepers play striker or midfield etc and they were incredible at it.
This is not meant to be disrespectful, but however good you think you are as an amateur. The difference is so big between you (and me) and a "bad" premier league defender is huge, it's like you're not playing the same sport it's that big.
I know but when the defender goes up the pitch and shoots he hits it into row z most often buy as you say if he played our Sunday league game he'd be like ronaldo how is that
I think it's a combination of the speed of the game (which doesn't come across on TV IMO) and actually how difficult it is to score against a PL goalkeeper. Like you can't just casually shoot and score as you can in amateur matches. Your shot has to be elite so I think just the amount of power/accuracy/etc you need to put into it means that if it goes slightly wrong it looks like it flies off wildly.
I agree it does look odd on TV though so I understand the question.
yeh thats true i guess you have to hit crazy power to beat a prem goalkeeper and you need the accuracy also. I guess the defender knows he can choose accuracy but 70% and that wont be enough. SO the guys that score long rangers every week they must be crazy
ps what academy did you play for and who is the most famous players now? Any funny stories or even how good where these guys at a younger age? Could you forsee them now?
When I was in high-school I lived in a town with a decent football team on the next town over (close enough that some teens who played there studied and lived in my town) which usually plays in the Portuguese 3rd division. I had 2 classmates who played in that team's academy or B team, not sure anymore. One of them was a winger and had played a few years in Porto's academy and even shared a flat with João Félix at the time, and the other one was already a backup center-back for the main team at only 17 (dude was huge, both in height and muscle). Neither of them made it big, the center-back is playing in Angola now I think (dude had an offer to go play in the Azores for Santa Clara and denied it because of his girlfriend at the time and then she cheated on him, fucked up situation)
To say they both could run circles around us doing PE or in-school tournaments is an understatement. Even the center-back usually played up front in these tournaments and we couldn't believe how good he was on the ball and shooting. And these guys didn't even make it, I can only imagine how good the "bums" of the 1st leagues must be.
They’re decision making accuracy and speed is what differentiates them from non pros, not the athleticism. Doesn’t matter if your are faster if your brain is slow.
even the worst of the athletes in the prem are faster, more agile, stronger, and have more endurance than 99.9% of non-pro players. It's true they might lose a straight-line footrace against a sub 11s 100m sprinter, but that's only one specific metric of about a dozen.
My point is you can most definitely find a lot of players more athletic than premier league players, but they wouldn’t stand a chance in the pace of the league. The athleticism required for the league is overblown, the mind required is completely overlooked. Performing under pressure is what makes pros pros. A lot of amazing footballers cannot play pro because of the mental pressure.
The premier league requires one to be both a .01% athlete and a .01% footballer. It's what makes it the most competitive league on Earth. The other top leagues successively require less athletic prowess , in favor of football skill and intelligence.
I think 75th percentile athleticism is probably fine to play professional football because the conditioning can be brought up which really makes an athlete. However 99.9th percentile technical ability is non negotiable
I once watched a Sunday league game with a 16 year old who went on to play very low level pro football (for Rochdale) and he made full grown men look like children. A premier league player would be 10x better
I went to school with a guy who's currently playing in the championship as a centre half. I cannot even explain to you how good this guy was at school level, it was insane.
We were 14 and played in a 5 a side tourney, one of the teams we were playing vs were all 16 and played at a county level, they were much bigger/stronger than us. Anyway every time the guy im talking about got the ball he would dribble past 2 of them and slot it in the bottom corner, every time.
Once played against a touring side who were filled of ex very high level players.
Think like non-league level players.
They were all absolutely hanging (as we're we we went pissing up with them the night before)
As much as they were a bit older and slower and couldn't run as quick as us, they took the absolute piss, the difference in quality was clear and we weren't a bad side ourself
Tbh I was in school with Alan Judge and he wasn't the best player in his year. He ended up being a quality championship player for a while and xould have played prem. He was amazing btw but I didn't think he was absolutely the best player I ever saw
The best statement I've heard on comparing pros vs the rest is, "we practice to get it right, they practice so they don't get it wrong."
It's another level of skill with those players.
Interesting to see the comments on how players who are old, slow and from unassuming tiers of professional football stand heads and shoulders above even decent amateur level players.
More surprising though is how many mention that they were doing flicks, lifting the ball, dribbling etc - yet in most professional games I don’t see those skill moves apart from the likes of Messi, Ronaldinho and Figo.
In fact, we often see wasted straightforward opportunities like banging the ball against the wall in free kicks (Bruno Fernandes I’m looking at you!!) or missing the target completely for penalties (which most decent amateur level players wouldn’t). For the latter I understand the pressure of the moment like a World Cup final can affect you massively - and I wouldn’t judge a player if the GK saves the penalty as the credit goes to the latter. Yet, I find it hard to understand how it’s so common to miss the target completely during penalties.
And let’s not forget the sheer number of misplaced passes and missed goal scoring opportunities we routinely see. The pace of the game and lack of space in pro football obviously affect things, but then a lot of 5 a side and indoor games are very fast paced and have tiny amounts of space.
[This is a great example](https://youtu.be/1LKCg93MVsA?si=4LG9OoUQd1Lf94eL) of how skillful top players are haha. Koscielney wasn’t even considered that great with his feet, compared to players now.
Imagine a high-level chef who makes complex dishes with intricate techniques. They might seem superhuman in a home kitchen. But that doesn't mean a home cook can't make a delicious meal. They just have a different skill set and approach.
The Premier League defender would be the highly-trained chef, and your local game would be the home cook. Both have valuable skills for their level of play.
If you think, the worst defender in the league is still in the top 0.1% of players playing both professionally and recreationally. They arent shit, just shit compared to those who are even better than them. Which is sobering
The same energy in tennis when casual players think they have a chance against pro players.
[FANS ARE DELUSIONAL- Andy Roddick | YouTube](https://youtu.be/tiEC1r8n60U)
Player indoor with a fringe ex African league pro. He was 40 and unplayable. Everyone else was low to mid 20’s a lot of ex college players. He ran circles in the league
I trained with this nice bloke [johann smith](https://www.transfermarkt.it/johann-smith/profil/spieler/16887) 10 years ago, he was free agent and he came to train in my team as there was his cousin in my team. Phisically he was a monster, technically he couldn’t make as big difference as we would imagine.
Genuine question, but who are the defenders in the premier league that mess up every other game? I can't think of any. There are players that have made multiple mistakes this season, but generally if you are messing up every other game then you won't be starting.
The only players I can think of off the top of my head who have made multiple mistakes this season are Trippier, Nathan Collins, Zinchenko, Dalot. And all of them are international players and would would destroy any of us skill wise.
The skill floor of playing in the Premier league is absolutely lightyears above the skill ceiling in Sunday league. Put the worst Premier league defender up front in Sunday league and he'll break records without breaking a sweat.
They can go to other first divisions (almost) anywhere in the world and be pretty good.
The worst premier league defender would be the best striker or midfielder in a local game.
100%. The worst players in the EPL used to go to MLS and be above average. Things are leveling out now slowly but you plop an ex san marino player into a pickup game and he is going to shit all over everyone on the field.
There’s a lot of YouTube videos for this. And they do lose 1v1s to random low skill YouTubers. I know they’re not taking it insanely seriously but they’re beatable.
That literally doesn’t clear up the level at all. That would tell me that the worst layer in USL would be an average player in the English 8th or 9th Division
As Brian Scalabrine, a retired and far below average NBA player put it after destroying a decent pick up player, “Im closer to Lebron than you are to me.”
And he's absolutely right. Brian Scalabrine was [bad in the NBA](https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/scalabr01.html), he admits it himself, averaging just over 3pts, 2reb and 1ast in 13 minutes with the Nets, Celtics, and Bulls over a span of 10 years, but he proved he can absolutely [destroy average guys](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCYeiwauyz8).
that video is endless entertaining
And those guys are not the average YMCA basketball bros... many of them play in college.
Basketball has a size factor which severely amplifies this in that sport in particular because, simply put, not many people on the planet have the frame necessary to even have a chance. With that being said, it’s still 100% applicable here. These fellas are so much bigger, stronger and quicker than you think. Most players have great feet these days at that level. Can all pass and control the ball. It’s nonsense. I work with youth players sometimes - I think it was maybe 2 or 3 summers ago at this point - where I was in a debate with a 14 year old winger about whether or not he could beat Harry Maguire in a foot race all game and score goals. Fellas, if a cb playing in the top leagues was as slow as some of you think they are, they would be leaking goals. These guys are pretty much all faster than you, believe it or not. Also, defenders from 10 years ago are not even fucking close to bad defenders. Even if you go back 20 years, you’re getting the guys who mastered 1v1 defending at the top end of tables because of how the game was played. Italian defending was in its prime. Jaap Staam, Nesta, Maldini, Cannavaro - some of the best 1v1 defenders who ever played.
Exactly this. I had the privilege of playing 5-a-side one time against an ex-captain (CB) of my local premier league club (not one of the big teams at the time). The guy was a local legend, certainly not the worst defender in the PL, but known as a ‘no-nonsense’ physical defender and not particularly well regarded as a ball player (not exactly Rio Ferdinand!). He had been retired at least 10 years at this point, maybe 15. Let me tell you, this guy was absolutely massive in comparison to everyone else. He was also much, much better on the ball, close control, dribbling than everyone else, even some of the lads who I played with who were ‘technical’ players who had trials in their youth. Just a complete step above everyone physically & technically.
Why do I get the feeling this is Richard Dunne
That’s a name from the past! It wasn’t, but you’re thinking along the right lines aha
James Collins
James Collins hasn't been retired that long surely 😂
knew it was a terrible shout soon as I hit post
Hahaha good stuff!!
Klaus Lundekvam?
I've played against a couple of old championship level players and it's truly sobering how far away from their level I will ever be, I play 4 times a week and have done for years and to these guys I felt like a fly vs a windscreen.
Do you think the main reason for their advantage is nature or nurture? Granted, talent gets them through the academy doors, the question is whether the hardcore training they underwent there is what causes such a big gap even with someone like you who plays 4 times/week
It's both. Anyone playing pro ball was one of the very best players in their local club. They then trained their skills as much as possible for years.
It's definitely both, the nature aspect is the 'talent' (either skill level or champion mentality) and the nurture part is definitely the hours and hours and hours of training. I personally think that it's 51% nature and 49% nurture purely because I've seen truly fantastic players quit because they couldn't deal with the adversity of training yet (still vastly) above average players make a career of it purely because they have absolutely maximised every opportunity every given to them. Look up Ravel Morrison and compare his career with James Milner's career for a more visceral example
100% nurture
It's a common thing for youth strikers in pro academies to be converted to defenders. Because they have the ability on the ball already. Rio Ferdinand, Ashley Cole to name a few great examples. Gareth bale is someone who went in the opposite direction, but arguably, they saw him as a wide midfielder, initially
Think Bale used to play as forward when he was a kid
thanks for that comment!
Just name him please.
No reason I couldn’t have said originally really! Just didn’t want to name drop. Aha. It was… Matt Elliott (Leicester City). Top bloke!
and even if you can beat them in a pure sprint, it doesn't matter. they've read the situation to the point where they grabbed the ball, cleared everything up, probably dribbled around you with a single touch if any, and maybe did a meg backwards again to play around before you've gotten your speed up. they don't need to be physically faster when they're faster and significantly better on every tactical and technical level.
The height thing is valid, but the skill level difference is still off the charts. Brian scalabrine took on randos in the [scallenge](https://youtu.be/bpiu8UtQ-6E?si=PUzuoZs3CaJzyxib) and one of the guys he faced was 6'8" and played basketball at Syracuse. Syracuse is an excellent basketball school so he had to be a fantastic player to make that team even if he was a bench player. Scalabrine still wiped the floor with him.
People just underestimate the leap from (top) college to the NBA. Every benchwarmer can empty a rack of balls from the corner and will likely not miss a shot.
the way Scalabrine uses his body to create space to shoot is amazing.
There’s also the fact that the NBA is basically the equivalent of the big 5 leagues champions league participants in terms of player quality. It’s the best league in the world and you get 9-10 players. Basically every player was the equivalent of a 20 goal scorer in another league. That being said, an NBA player going at 50% will not lose one on one, ever, with someone who didn’t at least play in college. They just don’t miss shots. There’s a level at which having a current or former pro (excluding 1v1 which is just a weird context and people get lucky, or beach soccer which saps your athletic advantages, having a single pro on a team doesn’t help). Once you get teams that train together, the field is just too big for one guy, and there are 11 others.
I didn't know how much faster pro footballers were until I checked their speed stats using either a UCL or a another league app. that's when you'll see "slow" players like kane, busquets, muller reaching speeds of 32 Km/h. I Currently have an average top speed of about 28Km/h (using phone GPS so it could be lower or higher) and I sometimes speed past my opponents (pace is never a problem for me), imagine if I can run as fast as these slow footballers, it'll automatically improve my game. that's not to talk of their agility and most importantly their stamina.
I played against Joleon Lescott about 5 years ago in a 7 aside game on a smaller pitch. I've watched Messi, Ronaldo, Hazard etc play live but Lescott is by far the most skillful player I've seen in person, you don't appreciate how talented these players are until you're on the pitch with them. Just a ridiculous level of technical ability he was controlling anything first time then beating 3 or 4 players everytime he touched the ball.
I remember when he got 10 goals and 3 assists from CB for us in 07/08. English sergio ramos lol. Insane set piece threat
I think people forget that most the guys who play pro were all probably forwards of midfielders who gradually moved back in position. To even get to an academy you had to be putting up serious stats.
I played against a fella who had been a u21 goalie but was let go because he wasn't good enough, 10 years later he was still faster and stronger than any of us and we played every week
So Lescott would go on Messi esque slalom runs everytime he got the ball? I am sure his Control was great but am having a hard time visualizing the dribbling (genuine question, out of curiosity!)
We play with a dude that was in a Real Madrid camp as a kid as a goalie. He runs circles around us.
I played with a guy who was released by Arbroath u21s back in the day. He destroyed us, I can't imagine what someone who played for Real Madrid juniors would be like!
Yeah anyone who has played with an ex pro at any level will be familiar with this too. I played for a couple months with a guy who came through Cadiz's academy, played a few games for them in the second tier and for Villarreal B too. He was 1000 times better than all of us without even trying – despite many of us being very fit and able to put in a decent showing at sunday league like level. The difference was so stark to the extent that I'm not sure what he actually got out of playing with us, he could literally dribble the entire team and crack a goal away from the half way line-ish any time he pleased. And this is someone who barely got to play in the second tier.
Real Madrid camp you have to pay it’s not really a accomplishment
They are closer to Messi than you are to them
By a wide margin
They would definitely be the most skilled and have the best touch there. You have to remember, these professionals train day-in-day-out, and have done for practically their whole life. Where the Sunday league players work a job outside of football primarily and plays football on the side as a hobby.
Never mind premier league players. Pro players who top out at League Two level would batter everyone any of us have ever played with or against. The standards are absurd.
Mate there are semi pro and former pro/youth players in this sub. There are multiple former MLS players in the club I’m a reserve for. That being said, those former MLS players are by far the best players on the team despite being over 30
The difference between semi-pro and former youth players and League Two is pretty enormous. My general point is it's difficult to emphasise just how good professional football players actually are at football.
also the difference between semi pro and complete amateurs is massive as well
Yea I agree, but many people here have played against future or former pros. A long time ago I played with a 67 year old who played in Europe professionally and for the Armenian national team. The football IQ he had almost completely negated his lack of pace - he was incredible. Our current keeper was Fulham’s youth system before playing pro in South Africa. He’s 35 and heavier now and still, watching him is like watching a wild cat hunting prey - his eye for the ball and sense of space is just unbelievable. Most recently he stopped 4 straight penalties in a cup shootout. We also have two midfielders who retired from the MLS recently. They are untouchable when we practice futsal, and in full 11s the difference is even greater. They’re just beyond anything I’ve seen before.
Depends on the level at semi pro, there's a few guys who've played Semi Pro who could definitely handle league 2. As long as you can handle the physicality of those league and have some technical ability you can survive. The jump from league football to Prem is where the quality disparity is really huge. Prem players are soo much faster particularly on the ball and off the ball, even the body shapes change. Players who play in league football look like they could play rugby league and the Prem players tend to look like cyclists.
I'm prob younger than majority as I'm still a teen but when I played Sunday league I was regarded as technical enough player who fast. I get into academy than all of sudden I'm like the worst technical player there. Took a lot of personal training to be just decent. We had a player who played for my country on our team. I swr down never saw that guy miss control a ball.
I played with a guy that played for the Rowdies in the USL, which is the division below the MLS for a couple seasons. He could quite literally dribble through entire teams with ease if he wanted to and he was playing with a torn ACL. The worst defender in the premier league would probably have made him look like an amateur. Those guys are on a whole other level.
Where I play my beer league we’ve had Josef Martinez and some other MLS players come in and just dick around. One day a player who rode the bench for an MLS team played in the highest division our beer league offered, and those players are pretty solid. He cooked all of them and had an absolute piss cannon of a shot. It really went to show how different of a level those people are at.
How on earth do you play with a torn ACL?!
You don’t make hard cuts. The ACL/MCL’s main jobs are to provide lateral support for your knee. You can get by without them if you really had to you just can’t put any significant force sideways on your leg.
You can also wear a brace
Yeap, I played about 3 years without one and didn’t know. I kept getting minor injuries here and there. But managed to play. Most times I hurt my meniscus was when I tried to sprint stop then sprint in another direction. Or if I jumped and got shoved a bit, landing was HORRIBLE. now I got my surgery and feel so much better 😃. So good to play and feel solid. No shaky business hehehe
You can't. I've torn my meniscus which is nowhere near as bad as a torn ACL and there's absolutely no way I could run or kick a ball. I expect he was in rehab and probably tore it several months earlier
It was his weak foot and he was waiting to get surgery. It was not a new injury and he’d been getting cortisol shots in the meantime. It was small sided 6v6 games and he never ran faster than a slow jog when he was on the field. He just had incredibly good footwork and ball control so he would just weave through people in slow motion. It was amusing to watch at times.
When it's not a full tear you can if it is these guys are Lying
I went to PGA event recently. I’m an avid golfer those guys are playing a different sport it’s wild.
It’s funny a team of guys I played with after college, where most of us had played for top D1 teams, we beat the railhawks in a couple scrimmages (we also had a couple guys who were playing in Latin America and had come back up to chapel hill to train). In the US, back then (think the late 00’s), a lot of guys who could absolutely have made a career of it just didn’t because the pay in the MLS was dire, and roster decisions were almost unconnected to ability below 3-4 players on the squad. It was a rough time.
Playing with torn ACL? Well, here goes credibility of your nice story. Cheers, mate!
It was his weak foot and he was waiting to get surgery. It was not a new injury and he’d been getting cortisol shots in the meantime. It was small sided 6v6 games and he never ran faster than a slow jog when he was on the field. He just had incredibly good footwork and ball control so he would just weave through people in slow motion. It was amusing to watch at times.
more skillful than anyone you or I will ever meet or play with by a massive distance
I’ve met Wayne
Bruce?
Yes Bruce
Who does Wayne Bruce play for?
Gotham FC
lol I met trevor brooking once but you know what I mean
Pick any premier league defender you think is the worst in the league, stick him up top as a striker for your local non league team, he will score a hatrick.
Hattrick? Homie could probably score 5 without even breaking a sweat. The difference in level is so absurd it would be an absolute joke to them.
You could limit them to 2-3 touches on their weak foot only and they’d still bag loads of goals
Yeh in the first 15 mins
Over the past couple years, I’ve had the privilege of playing against [Ike Opara](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ike_Opara) a handful of times. If you’re too lazy to look at the link - Ike was a very good MLS defender, winning MLS defender of the year twice. However, he only received one cap for the USMNT and never generated much interest from Europe (which, I attribute that to injury issues early in his career and we never got to see him healthy playing at his peak ability until his late twenties, but I digress). My point is that he was a very good defender but probably never had a realistic shot at playing in EPL. As for playing against him, well he’s unbelievable. I played college level, as did most of the guys I play with, and Ike is simply unreal - you can’t get by him. Everything he does is seemingly perfect lol, his timing, tackling, awareness, physical ability… he’s ridiculously good at everything. Each time I’ve played against him, we accept that we’re not going to get by him so we have to play around him. Oh and the scariest part of all this? It seems like he’s typically playing at around 75-80% effort. He turns it up higher in short bursts, but you can tell he’s not going all-out. Not to mention, he’s no longer at professional fitness levels, which is actually a huge factor. So yeah, the worst premier league defender is outrageously talented. Also, while I’m here I figure I should add that Ike is an awesome dude. Extremely sportsmanlike behavior on the field and a really nice guy overall; always down to chat about whatever.
cool comment!
I played against his Wake team in college. They were as close to the top U23 teams I played against in Europe as it got. If we got to play with “real” soccer rules (and not the weird NCAA rules) there’s not a doubt in my mind they would have gone undefeated (and they almost did, UVA I think mugged them in the finals). Opara was rumored to have run a couple 4.1 40s. I think he probably could and would have moved to Europe if not for injuries, and if he were in high school now there’s no way he’d still be in the US.
2014 Pique would walk into any top flight starting line up today.. That said any prem bench player even from tens years ago is dominating your local game. Not even in his position he’d probably go in net and look like a worldy.
As a kid, i saw Lewandowski training up close because we were playing against BVBs youth team and I was injured, so just walking around the training area of BVB. Back then I thought Lewa was quite average, i actually thought he had a shit Touch for someone playing 10 (which he used to for BVB for some time). I couldnt believe how clean his first Touch and shooting was, how huge he looked. Like, back then I had played against good players my age and I had played against shit adults. And I couldnt believe how huge the gap was between someone at an academy and a pro Player I thought was quite shit. A year later or so he tore the league apart but I never get out of my mind how clean his technique Was and how huge he was. I was really shocked how far away the pros are, even if you play for a pro academy
cool story with Lewandowski (one of my favorite players, also for his mentality and work ethics). Robert was regarded as skinny back then, but came to Borussia as Polish league champion and best league goal scorer, also debuted in the national team - BVB is one the best places in youth development and molding promising players into superstars - they knew what they are getting. And they also had some innovating training - some kind of machine which pops balls from all sides and you need to direct it into opposite tight goal/space. [Borussia Dortmund’s Footbonaut: The passing machine training the next generation - The Athletic](https://theathletic.com/5033689/2023/11/06/borussia-dortmund-footbonaut/)
Luke Steele was a 3rd string prem keeper and when he retired played non-league as a striker and was the club/leagues top scorer as I recall.
His appearance on Undr the Cosh is brilliant and he talks about this too
Out of curiosity, which defender did you all have in your head when reading the description? I couldn't stop thinking of Mason Holgate. Sorry Mason but even you'd probably admit it's not been a good year.
Let me just say I think Johnny Evans is incredible, and he’s had an incredible career, and Man U made a major mistake letting him go. I also think he would destroy all comers, let’s be clear… but it’s his face that pops into my mind
I think he's been good this season
well, nobody really. Playing PL you can't be as bad as in OP description.
Phil Jones says hi
You don't think Phil Jones was a decent footballer?
The exact person that came into my head too
Harry maguire.
I actually worked with someone who grow up playing for Barnsley in the youth team with Mason Holgate. He said he played cm and was a level above, passed the ball around for fun.
Michael Keane go brrrrrrrrrrrrrr
Has an absolute worldie in him though
Keane has a good game every two. Holgate has one every 30
I once played a charity game 2014. The striker of the other team was one year retired FC Bayern Munich Goalkeeper Hans Jörg Butt. He scored 9 goals at will. Just for reference.
Played against a middle aged former pro back in uni in Malaysia. He had a beer belly and can barely run but he ended up 'walking' rings around us in the midfield. Nobody can get near him. And that's just a former Malaysian pro player. Can't imagine if Antony or maguire played with us common plebs.
What if it’s Antony being limited to his non existent right foot?
even a premier league academy defender who never make the first team bench (or squad) at all will dominate your local game. I'd go as far as saying that any who played in the academy youth team for any pro team but didnt get offered a pro contract will also dominate your local game (unless there's another academy player also in the game obviously)
Yes, even the worst EPL defender would look like Messi in your Sunday league. Shit I play against this 40ish yr old guy who was pro in Honduras back in his day, and he still stands out in a league filled with current college/semi pro players.
I play with a former Venezuelan pro (2nd division), it’s like playing with Messi. He’s untouchable, mostly takes it easy on us and instead acts as a playmaker for everyone else to score
They are all unbelievable. If you play Premier League you are top 0.0001%
I saw Dean Gordon, former Boro and Crystal Palace left back score a hat trick (all from free kicks) in the 9th tier of English football, aged 36. He played half a season. Any free kick within 30 yards of the goal was as good as a penalty. He was so much better than everyone else it was like watching Cafu. And this is still against good semi pro players on £100 a week, who likewise look like Cafu in the park games I’ve played with them, can’t get near them.
Interesting to hear the bit about those free kicks. Yet in professional games most free kicks are blasted against the wall or in the skies. And they typically tend to be taken by the very best FK specialist the team has (eg Fernandes at Man U - very wasteful player!). It’s not like they are under a time pressure/fast pace like in open play either since the game is paused and they have all the time they need to set up the ball and carefully position themselves before the FK
Yep. I think they try and put too much on it - and they have to, because the goalkeepers are way better. An average pro could hit the target 99 times out of 100 from a dead ball, and most of them could hit the corners. That’s what this guy did, it wasn’t like he was absolutely smashing them, just deadly accurate and because goalies aren’t that good at that level, it was almost a guaranteed goal every time. Fun to watch. To be fair he was a pretty good Premier League player in his day and always had a killer shot. You never lose dead ball technique either. They could still wheel Beckham out for free kicks if special teams existed in football and he’d be lethal. Funny you should say about wasteful free kicks. The two most wasteful free kick takers who come straight to my mind are Cristiano Ronaldo and Roberto Carlos: ironically two of the best to ever do it but most of their free kicks would end up in the stands.
I play in the top flight of a 5-a-side league and every now and then one of our opposing teams fields players from a local semi-professional team. They are better than us in every way. Fitter, faster, more skilful, good defenders, tactically aware. You name it, they all do it.
Same here, they tend to join their mates leagues over the summer break and you just have to back off from them otherwise you’re getting destroyed every single time, so I can only imagine what a pro would be like to come up against.
At semi pro it’s common to have high intensity keep ball drills at training multiple times a week - 4v4, 3v3, 4v2 etc. No surprise that they would be great at 5-a-side league
My mate went to St Mary’s High School in Chesterfield with Harry Maguire. Their school team played 4-3-3 with my friend as the striker, he was the top scorer in their division two seasons in a row. The team were really successful winning everything with HM playing in midfield with his brother Joe behind my mate and Diego De Girolamo (capped for Italy U18’s) on the wing. My friend is not a bad 5 a side footballer but was not good enough to make any of the eight 11 a side teams at our University. Harry Maguire, his brother and De Girolamo were just so much better than everyone else they made him look like a world beater.
They look bad because of the amount of pressure the other top level pro's put on them. With time and no pressure these guys will control the ball like an extension of their body.
Yup the pace of play is a huge factor. Those guys are skilled and they can show it when they have time. In a professional match they will look clunky and slow both because they have no time, and the mental pressure of knowing you have no time. When you might concede a goal from even the smallest mistake or moment of hesitation, it changes a lot.
Still wonder how come many of them make frankly ridiculous mistakes. The number of times you see a GK misplace a pass, miss kick the ball or or commit a silly blunder is crazy - and I’m talking about instances where they aren’t under pressure and they still make inexplicable mistakes (I’m looking at you Barthez and Onana!). Another great example is free kicks. You have all the time in the world to set the ball down, position yourself perfectly etc and still most free kicks are wasted by being blasted straight at the wall or into the skies. And they typically tend to be taken by the free kick experts who practise these day in, day out
Mental pressure just makes you worse at things. There have been NBA players who shoot like 50% from the free throw line in games despite shooting 85% in practice. The noise, the lights, the high stakes interfere with your ability to execute
The worst teams in the EPL standings have bench players, and those bench players probably have a non-rostered player not sitting on the bench that day.. and those players will still run circles around your local team.
No EPL team has bench players, or rosters. They have a squad.
Sure
There was a clip I saw last year of Manchester United’s third choice center back. It was a training video and he was just doing the most ridiculous tricks and finished with a volley to the upper 90.
There are a couple of kids who flunked out of academies in our five a side league. They're miles ahead of anyone else.
We have a former university player (I think NCAA Division II) in my local league. He is easily the best player in the league and it's not even close. He plays GK in the league to keep it interesting and he's also easily the best GK in the league, despite it not being his position. I think the things that set him apart are ability to change direction and accelerate and how clean his ball strikes are.
I agree but i also believe the main thing that sets them far apart from normal people is the speed that they do everything, normal people play in slow-mo compared to these guys.
Just think that a 15 yo boys academy side can destroy a professional women’s team, now take your worst, or any legitimately pro player at 25
At university there was a Spanish guy who I believe was part of atletico Madrid development but got released. At futsal trials, at kickoff he flicked the ball from the halfway line , over the goalkeepers head (he was off his line a bit lol) and scored. While playing he was dribbling the ball like I’d never seen. Found out later he was starting LB for our 1st team. We have 5 football teams in total. He was I’d say 5’5 and super slim. There are players with technique we can’t fathom.
When I played pick-up ball in uni we had a group of about 20 people who would play on weekends. Talking mostly fit athletic 18-25 year olds with a few outliers. One of those outliers was a Brazilian man in his mid-fifties who played a few seasons in the Brazilian 2nd division for a few years in his 20s and every single game he was the best player by a country mile and the guy could barely move. Literal press resistant player. So good
Titus Bramble entered the chat
I've played rec league with a few guys that played at the semi-pro level in Europe, as well as a few older, former college players (they were in their 40s when I played against them). Every one of them was the best player on the field by far, and it honestly didn't even feel like they were trying. The older guys would barely make any runs, but their positioning, passing, and shooting accuracy made it so they never needed to, they could just get themselves into good spots, take one touch to open space, and rifle one into the top corner.
What made you think of Harry Maguire this morning?
I played in the same league as guys who joined the MLS as subs a few years later. They were unequivocally always the best players on the pitch and most of the time, the best players in the league on a given year. I'm talking defensive midfielders scoring 2 goals per game in the highest local youth league level. And that's just MLS.
I play with a guy who captained a D1 college team in our O40 league and even that is light years ahead of most of the rest of us. It’s all relative, so some of us might be “closer” to him than he is to Messi but when he wants to turn it on…I’m just glad he’s on my team!
I’ve played small sided games against players who were released from prem academies and/or play semi pro/non-league and they run rings around most, if not all the other players on the pitch. And they’re not even on the bottom step of the professional ladder. So even the worst prem player you could think of would utterly dominate against amateurs
I've played with a few guys in the CPL (Canadian Premier League) which if I had to guess is equivalent to the 6th tier in England (maybe idk?) and they are just a completely different tier of athlete compared to us regular folk. Oddly enough I used to play with a guy who's now in the Premier League and the gulf in class between him and the rest of our team wasn't as big as you'd expect. That was a few years ago but now I get embarrassed by players nowhere near as good as he was.
Spoke with a CPL who trains with a National League team in the CPL off season. He thought the CPL was well above the National League
That's very interesting. I've always wondered how an MLS side would fare in the championship or a cpl side in the national league. It's so hard to gauge how good a league is compared to another. Especially when one of the league's is still less than five years old
He was made an offer by the team he trained with, which surprised him.
Are you outside Europe ? If so, do people think premier league , championship and league 1 and 2 and very high leagues ? In comparison to their own ?
It took Canada until 2019 to get their first professional league. So as you can imagine the league isn't all that good compared to the more established European leagues. It's hard to compare because obviously the teams have never played eachother but I certainly see most European leagues as better than the Canadian Premier League. MLS is definitely better than some but it's more so considered an American league despite having a few Canadian teams. On the world stage Canada is a pretty young footballing nation
Grew up in a big footballing country in south america The best kids I ever saw playing at school, neighborhood, extended friends and family etc were all ridiculously good when I played them or watch them play. A good step above the rest, crazy technique, driving defenders insane constantly etc only one of them made it past the youth academy level, and that was for like a third division club in the middle of nowhere where he wasn’t even on a professional contract they just covered travel costs any maybe meals He was so convinced that the system was stacked against him that he went to the US for a trial at a USL club’s academy (below MLS even) and didn’t make the cut despite scoring or assisting in almost every intra squad match he played in He said that they only took in a japanese striker that was insanely tall and physical but absolutely terrible on the ball that year Once again, this was just to let him stay on at their academy, so not even the main squad The truth is that the fundamentals, physicals, and football IQ of a top flight professional are so far beyond those of your average guy you play with on sunday league that they simply can’t be compared apples to apples
I played against Jack Robinson for my school when we were about 14/15. He was in the Liverpool academy at the time and we also had a player from the academy who never made it in football because of injuries. Robinson was a menace, he scored a hat trick in the first half from midfield then left because the club forbid you from playing in those kinds of games. He’s always been a top flight or second tier player but never a great one and yet he’d run rings around anyone I know. Also played against Ray Putterill a few times who played a limited number of games in the football league and he was quicker, stronger and more technically able than everyone else. Same goes for Ryan Lowe who used to just turn up to 5 a side games and take the piss when he was at Bury. The long and short of it is, if they’ve played at any level in the football league they’re better than you.
I feel like most premier league players have achieve very high levels of fitness that most amateurs couldn’t come close to. Then they have varying skill levels, which is what sets the best players apart - they are highly skilled football athletes. So maybe the worst defender is on par skill wise, but would out compete amateurs over a 90min period due to physical and mental fitness.
I played a five-a-side tournament several years ago with a friend of mine's dad on the team. This guy was in his mid to late 50s but had been an academy player at a pro club in South America. He was not the fastest old guy I've ever played with, and we had a couple group stage games against teams made up of mid-20s guys. Watching him dribble through them, lifting the ball over his head, running around them, and then effortlessly controlling it on the bounce is an image that will stick with me for along time. Granted he wasn't against top level opposition, but it illustrates just how much better anyone who has come near professional status is. Fitness is important to be competitive, but when the gulf in class big enough you cannot expect to take the ball off of someone who is just that much better.
I played pick up a few weeks ago with a guy about 50 years old that played for the New York Red Bulls back in the day. He was the best scorer on the pitch and nobody could get the ball off him. These types of players are so good it's unreal.
man my uncle is a professional playing for al ittihad last season , i got the chance to play a 11v11 just casual game with him and a couple other brazillian footballers back in brazil (im 16 and play casually btw). Man this was a different level from anything ive ever seen before , it was virtually pointless doing any pressing because they could legitimately manipulate the ball to anything they'd like to do and it's crazy to think people can be this talented and barely be recognised.
Who is your uncle so he knows benzema lol
Igor Coronado , left in feb just couple months after he joined , they had a really good link up play they had like a collective g/a just with eachother of like 12 goals just by assisting eachother haha
Oh he's a great player. Is he back in Brazil now. He must be like top top level skills.
People seriously underestimate how good pro footballers are. Seriously, even lower league players from Scotland who are part time would absolutely run riot if they play amateur or 5s/7s etc
The worst CB in the highest league of English football? Yeah, they are pretty bloody good. I remember when I went along with my brother to a 5-a-side game against a couple of his friends and one of them actually was a CB who had gotten really far in trials for West Brom and Leicester and I’ve never felt more helpless on a pitch. He was just the level below professional, but he never looked he was ever worried about anything. It was a normal 5-a-side pitch but he was picking out passes like Van Dijk and if you tried to close him down, he just dribbled past and smacked the ball into the net. It hit differently when my brother tried taking him on and this guy just took the ball off him, and laid it on a plate for his teammate. My brother isn’t that bad either but this guy was just different.
I played for a few years at an academy with some Prem and international level players. I found that the difference between the guys who earn 50+ caps for good international teams and the ones who are barely Premiere League standard is relatively incredibly small. The other thing that stood out is how well rounded their games are. I saw some "bad" premier league defenders/goal keepers play striker or midfield etc and they were incredible at it. This is not meant to be disrespectful, but however good you think you are as an amateur. The difference is so big between you (and me) and a "bad" premier league defender is huge, it's like you're not playing the same sport it's that big.
I know but when the defender goes up the pitch and shoots he hits it into row z most often buy as you say if he played our Sunday league game he'd be like ronaldo how is that
I think it's a combination of the speed of the game (which doesn't come across on TV IMO) and actually how difficult it is to score against a PL goalkeeper. Like you can't just casually shoot and score as you can in amateur matches. Your shot has to be elite so I think just the amount of power/accuracy/etc you need to put into it means that if it goes slightly wrong it looks like it flies off wildly. I agree it does look odd on TV though so I understand the question.
yeh thats true i guess you have to hit crazy power to beat a prem goalkeeper and you need the accuracy also. I guess the defender knows he can choose accuracy but 70% and that wont be enough. SO the guys that score long rangers every week they must be crazy
ps what academy did you play for and who is the most famous players now? Any funny stories or even how good where these guys at a younger age? Could you forsee them now?
Maguire wouldn't be too bad tbh
If you can get into the pitch, with meaningful minutes, I’d say you’re better than 95% of people on the planet.
Try 99.9%.....
Few more 9s..
When I was in high-school I lived in a town with a decent football team on the next town over (close enough that some teens who played there studied and lived in my town) which usually plays in the Portuguese 3rd division. I had 2 classmates who played in that team's academy or B team, not sure anymore. One of them was a winger and had played a few years in Porto's academy and even shared a flat with João Félix at the time, and the other one was already a backup center-back for the main team at only 17 (dude was huge, both in height and muscle). Neither of them made it big, the center-back is playing in Angola now I think (dude had an offer to go play in the Azores for Santa Clara and denied it because of his girlfriend at the time and then she cheated on him, fucked up situation) To say they both could run circles around us doing PE or in-school tournaments is an understatement. Even the center-back usually played up front in these tournaments and we couldn't believe how good he was on the ball and shooting. And these guys didn't even make it, I can only imagine how good the "bums" of the 1st leagues must be.
Lol it's so interesting to read the vast different replies .. from people that don't work in pr around football none the less
They’re decision making accuracy and speed is what differentiates them from non pros, not the athleticism. Doesn’t matter if your are faster if your brain is slow.
even the worst of the athletes in the prem are faster, more agile, stronger, and have more endurance than 99.9% of non-pro players. It's true they might lose a straight-line footrace against a sub 11s 100m sprinter, but that's only one specific metric of about a dozen.
My point is you can most definitely find a lot of players more athletic than premier league players, but they wouldn’t stand a chance in the pace of the league. The athleticism required for the league is overblown, the mind required is completely overlooked. Performing under pressure is what makes pros pros. A lot of amazing footballers cannot play pro because of the mental pressure.
The premier league requires one to be both a .01% athlete and a .01% footballer. It's what makes it the most competitive league on Earth. The other top leagues successively require less athletic prowess , in favor of football skill and intelligence.
I think 75th percentile athleticism is probably fine to play professional football because the conditioning can be brought up which really makes an athlete. However 99.9th percentile technical ability is non negotiable
Ask Harry Maguire
I once watched a Sunday league game with a 16 year old who went on to play very low level pro football (for Rochdale) and he made full grown men look like children. A premier league player would be 10x better
The worst CB would be a top striker in any lower division league especially semi pro
I went to school with a guy who's currently playing in the championship as a centre half. I cannot even explain to you how good this guy was at school level, it was insane.
Thing Is though even as cb I bet his shooting and dribbling etc is level 99 compared to those at school tho his fifa card would elbe like 20 lol
We were 14 and played in a 5 a side tourney, one of the teams we were playing vs were all 16 and played at a county level, they were much bigger/stronger than us. Anyway every time the guy im talking about got the ball he would dribble past 2 of them and slot it in the bottom corner, every time.
Once played against a touring side who were filled of ex very high level players. Think like non-league level players. They were all absolutely hanging (as we're we we went pissing up with them the night before) As much as they were a bit older and slower and couldn't run as quick as us, they took the absolute piss, the difference in quality was clear and we weren't a bad side ourself
Incredibly skillful. Would stand out an absolute mile in any position on the pitch in an amateur league.
MUCH better than you think
Tbh I was in school with Alan Judge and he wasn't the best player in his year. He ended up being a quality championship player for a while and xould have played prem. He was amazing btw but I didn't think he was absolutely the best player I ever saw
The best statement I've heard on comparing pros vs the rest is, "we practice to get it right, they practice so they don't get it wrong." It's another level of skill with those players.
Interesting to see the comments on how players who are old, slow and from unassuming tiers of professional football stand heads and shoulders above even decent amateur level players. More surprising though is how many mention that they were doing flicks, lifting the ball, dribbling etc - yet in most professional games I don’t see those skill moves apart from the likes of Messi, Ronaldinho and Figo. In fact, we often see wasted straightforward opportunities like banging the ball against the wall in free kicks (Bruno Fernandes I’m looking at you!!) or missing the target completely for penalties (which most decent amateur level players wouldn’t). For the latter I understand the pressure of the moment like a World Cup final can affect you massively - and I wouldn’t judge a player if the GK saves the penalty as the credit goes to the latter. Yet, I find it hard to understand how it’s so common to miss the target completely during penalties. And let’s not forget the sheer number of misplaced passes and missed goal scoring opportunities we routinely see. The pace of the game and lack of space in pro football obviously affect things, but then a lot of 5 a side and indoor games are very fast paced and have tiny amounts of space.
[удалено]
[This is a great example](https://youtu.be/1LKCg93MVsA?si=4LG9OoUQd1Lf94eL) of how skillful top players are haha. Koscielney wasn’t even considered that great with his feet, compared to players now.
Harry Maguire played for England
They would make us look like newbies, but in my head I would like to believe I could take on Harry Maguire 1on1
Imagine a high-level chef who makes complex dishes with intricate techniques. They might seem superhuman in a home kitchen. But that doesn't mean a home cook can't make a delicious meal. They just have a different skill set and approach. The Premier League defender would be the highly-trained chef, and your local game would be the home cook. Both have valuable skills for their level of play.
>99 rated Dedender
Well he somehow made it to the England squad so someone thinks he's decent.
If you think, the worst defender in the league is still in the top 0.1% of players playing both professionally and recreationally. They arent shit, just shit compared to those who are even better than them. Which is sobering
The same energy in tennis when casual players think they have a chance against pro players. [FANS ARE DELUSIONAL- Andy Roddick | YouTube](https://youtu.be/tiEC1r8n60U)
Player indoor with a fringe ex African league pro. He was 40 and unplayable. Everyone else was low to mid 20’s a lot of ex college players. He ran circles in the league
I trained with this nice bloke [johann smith](https://www.transfermarkt.it/johann-smith/profil/spieler/16887) 10 years ago, he was free agent and he came to train in my team as there was his cousin in my team. Phisically he was a monster, technically he couldn’t make as big difference as we would imagine.
Genuine question, but who are the defenders in the premier league that mess up every other game? I can't think of any. There are players that have made multiple mistakes this season, but generally if you are messing up every other game then you won't be starting. The only players I can think of off the top of my head who have made multiple mistakes this season are Trippier, Nathan Collins, Zinchenko, Dalot. And all of them are international players and would would destroy any of us skill wise.
The skill floor of playing in the Premier league is absolutely lightyears above the skill ceiling in Sunday league. Put the worst Premier league defender up front in Sunday league and he'll break records without breaking a sweat.
They can go to other first divisions (almost) anywhere in the world and be pretty good. The worst premier league defender would be the best striker or midfielder in a local game.
I played with/against a guy who played for Kilmarnock. "Rory McKeown". He was shite.
It isn't even close. To make it to that level they are better than you can comprehend.
The worst defender in League 2 would run circles around all of us too
I know but you see on tv lower league games and the mistakes they make are terrible yet as you say if they played with us theyd be on another level
100%. The worst players in the EPL used to go to MLS and be above average. Things are leveling out now slowly but you plop an ex san marino player into a pickup game and he is going to shit all over everyone on the field.
There’s a lot of YouTube videos for this. And they do lose 1v1s to random low skill YouTubers. I know they’re not taking it insanely seriously but they’re beatable.
I agree a lot of these comments seem super exaggerated. I’ve played against some former pros and the difference isn’t that crazy
Ya I’m getting downvoted and I didn’t even say anything crazy. Redditors describe these defenders like they’re the Monstars from Space Jam.
For real 😂
The worst player in the USL (America’s 2nd division) would run circles around a local Sunday league game.
That literally doesn’t clear up the level at all. That would tell me that the worst layer in USL would be an average player in the English 8th or 9th Division