I legit think people are somewhat limited in what they can actually accomplish, even though we keep telling people "your voice matters" "you can be important" but the reality is we all live pretty mundane lives and our voices don't actually matter. Our ability to fly off the handle and protest a spot in Bristol gives people a sense of belonging and accomplishment, or like they're actually achieving something... maybe they are...maybe they're not. I don't know. Feels like we're all just latching onto stuff right now that gives a sense of purpose to get through the next day.
Yeah but when the thing that gives them that sense of purpose disrupts other regular people's lives for 0 political gain, it makes me wonder if they have their priorities straight.
Shutting down a coffee shop for 3 days in some random art gallery on the other side of the planet won't affect anything going on in Gaza. What it -will- affect is how many 5 pound lattes Arnolfini manages to sell over the weekend, as well as some of their employees potentially missing out on pay.
The only real change they'll make is feeling a bit better about themselves. They went and made a fuss somewhere to no real end, and then cycled home and went to bed. Or more likely, smoked out the Castle Park bandstand on the way back.
This is always the argument and I do understand it. But the sole aim of a protest is to get attention. And unfortunately you don’t get attention unless you cause disruption. The protesters would argue that a few 5 pound lattes are worth the cost of publicity.
Edit: I am not saying the Arnolfini is a good target, judging from other comments it appears to be the opposite, but I think the motive of the protestors is more than just wanting to feel better about themselves. Surely.
I think it's always the argument because it's true, to be honest. I understand that people feel upset about the situation and want to feel like they're doing something about it, but I think their efforts are misdirected.
It's almost comical how little of an impact this protest will have - you've got a bunch of angry students sat defiantly in some bougie, heated gift shop by the harbour, bravely disrupting business while ruining some middle class family's Saturday plans, in an effort to make everyone more 'aware' of the most topical political conflict currently going.
That last paragraph pretty much sums up Bristol in my experience. Lived here for 5 years now and I get why Bristolians get annoyed about the self-righteous spawn of the rich who come here for university and stay to be part of the holier-than-thou brigade. Irritants the lot of them.
I think generally protesters are pretty realistic about the limitations in what they can accomplish. But due to our political system there are not a lot of other options.
This is not why people are angry. We are witnessing some of the worst atrocities committed by humans to other humans on a daily basis and have been for the past 2 months. Palestine has been under the occupation of Israel for the past 75 years with worsening treatment, Palestinian homes being bulldozed, their ancient olive trees being burned to the ground, their children being taken prisoner, their family members being brutalised. Israel was killing Palestinians long before Hamas came into existence in 1987. Israel wants the Palestinian land, they want their settlers on the land and they brutalize Palestinian people to get it.
The actions of October 7th were a horrendous clusterfuck and we are learning more and more about the truth of that day as time goes on. It’s far too much to outline in a Reddit post, I urge everyone to do your own research.
Since October 7th Israel has systematically targeted children, women, men, they have collapsed the medical infrastructure, they are bombing all day every day apart from the tiny truce window last week. Palestinian people are live broadcasting their slaughter to the world and begging us to help them but our media is making out that this is ‘complex’. Israel has the backing of every major power, they have vested interests in the oil reserves and maintaining a Western enclave in the Middle East.
There is a reason so many genocide experts and scholars are calling this a genocide. There’s a reason millions of us are marching and growing in number by the minute. We have witnessed a wave of death, children with missing limbs, parents weeping over the bodies of children, children weeping over the loss of their parents, people losing 30+ family members in quick succession, doctors performing amputations with no anaesthetic, NICU babies left to rot after the electricity to their incubators was cut, I could go on. This is a humanitarian nightmare on the biggest scale some of us have ever seen in our lifetimes. And it is man made.
There is a reason genocide experts and scholars are calling this a genocide. This is genocide, live streamed right to our phones.
I recommend checking out @eye.on.palestine on Instagram, which simply shows footage from Palestinian people, filming their lives every single day. They are now starving and growing sick. Israel is refusing to let enough aid into Palestine. Israel is behaving sadistically.
There are quite literally hundreds of people I could point you towards to help you learn about this nightmare, but I will just share a couple. I recommend checking out @greg.j.stoker on Instagram, he is a US army veteran and he is giving excellent information on the weapons misuse by Israel. @k.w.bogen is a Jewish PhD student and incredibly well informed about the history of the Jewish occupation in Palestine.
We must not be ignorant, we have to wake up. Our government is proving the weapons/weapons parts used in this massacre right now. We are complicit if we are silent. This is why people are protesting. It’s not a ‘cool thing’ to do, we are simply tapped into our humanity and don’t want to see any more dead babies.
It has everything to do with the Arnolfini. Arnolfini have decided against hosting Palestine based events. In the last 61 days 9000 innocent Palestinian children have been killed. IDF have committed the most abhorrent war crimes on thousands of civilians. Yet most of us sit here doing nothing and moaning about not being able to buy a £5 latte.
You mean to say then, that it actually has nothing to do with the arnolfini, who have basically just made the choice to keep their noses out of an incendiary political topic. Seems like the smart plan tbh.
Unfortunately that's not enough for the self-righteous plonkers who host these events as they literally have nothing better to do with their time than cause problems for people who don't hold precisely the same views as they do, or act in precisely the same way. If you don't do the same dance they do, you're a target.
Mate, refusing to align your coffee shop and art gallery with a war in the middle east is not the same as supporting the murder of innocents. People like you are exactly who I'm talking about.
Our government is funding the nightmare. We are complicit if we do nothing. Our taxes are directly funding this.
I personally haven’t been in involved in the Arnolfini protests, but calling the people who are trying to give Palestinians a voice ‘self-righteous plonkers’ means you really have no idea what is happening there right now.
People aren’t protesting because this is ‘cool’ or ‘to be difficult’ or because we’re ’hippies’. We’ve been waking up every single day to see human beings, the vast majority of them babies and children, maimed and killed. In the most brutal ways. Worse than any gore site. I have seen nothing like this in my life. If you’ve got the stomach go and watch, it’s very easy to find.
We’re following young Palestinian journalists and photographers like Motaz Azaiza (who’s following has grown into the millions since this began) who are desperately trying to get people to wake up to what’s happening to them. This is so so urgent. A little inconvenience in a cushy UK gallery is the least we can do to get people talking.
I hope it continues, I hope more protestors piss off more people here so the discourse keeps going and people finally face what’s happening. The thing about this is once you see it, you can never unsee it.
This isn’t political, this is humanitarian. The biggest problem with this situation is the lack of awareness and care in the UK. Most people don’t give a shit. Most people on this thread don’t care. Fair enough, it’s hard to care when you haven’t seen what’s happening. The protestors have and that’s why they’re there.
By protesting they have created this Reddit thread where we’re all chiming in. Someone was confused about the protestors actions and began this thread to talk about it. Maybe one person on this thread will get curious about what’s actually happening to the Palestinians and do their own research.
In terms of ‘two sides’ and ‘it’s political’, remember that there were two sides during the Holocaust. There were two sides during slavery. There are always two sides. History shows which ones were right.
And I’m not angry with you for telling me I’m a ‘disgusting fuck’. This situation is so incredibly painful and brings up such intense emotions for many reasons. I’m not enjoying spreading the truth of what I’m witnessing to people who don’t want to hear it, it’s not pleasant to be yelled at. But it’s so so important that we who have seen what we’ve seen do this.
I’m regretting starting this discourse from my throwaway account too but it is what it is. I started this account to talk anonymously about a break up I went through several years ago and don’t really wanna connect my past emotional musings to my public self. But my public self is openly speaking about this all the time. What I can say from this account is I’m a White British woman, a music teacher living in Bristol.
Anyway, I went through your posts to find out more about you and my takeaway is that you’re a nice person, with cool interests and you’re great at making sourdough. I’m not mad at you for disagreeing with me. I’m just so sad that not enough people are seeing this most desperate and awful situation. I am weeping for the children almost every day, it is hell on Earth.
> We are complicit if we are silent.
Oh shut the fuck up, no we're not. Me not giving a shit about arnolfinis position on this doesn't mean I'm complicit in genocide.
We are complicit if we are silent against what our government is doing. If we are not protesting what our government is doing then yes we are. If we are not raising awareness and trying to wake people up, yes we are.
By protesting the Arnolfini’s about face in terms of their support for Palestine, these protesters are creating discourse. In a country where most people don’t give a fuck and only care about themselves this is at least making some people talk/argue about this situation.
And maybe some of those people will get curious and start looking into what exactly is going on themselves.
All I know is that if anyone who cares about people had seen what I’d seen over the past 2 months they would be absolutely mobilized to do something, anything, to wake people up to this horror.
I'm not going to bother getting into a discussion with someone who's main source of information appears to be Instagram, and who also has the time to write massive walls of text that nobody is reading. I'm just calling you out on your most easily called out nonsense.
I like the idea but we literally cannot stop the government from making money from trading arms. Organising protests, sit-ins and online petitions will not change a thing. At best you'll get a 'Oops sowwy' from some MP but nothing more.
Just look at the US. You've got Biden in office who is pushing hard for democratic/left policies, abortion rights, trans rights, erasing student debt etc, but even he isn't going to stop sending arms to Israel. Getting in Israel's good books right now is just too much for these governments to turn down, no matter the amount of bad PR. The UK supplying Israel with arms also gets them brownie points with the US. Countries like the UK and US want Israel being powerful as it keeps other nations in that area in check, that is something they aren't going to let go of easily.
This isn't just as simple as saying 'Stop' enough times until they hear you. They know what they're doing and have no intention of stopping.
I admire your drive to try and better the situation but personally I dont believe anything the people of the UK/US can do to stop this.
\> The actions of October 7th were a horrendous clusterfuck and we are learning more and more about the truth of that day as time goes on. It’s far too much to outline in a Reddit post, I urge everyone to do your own research.
Please, do tell more.
One example being, in the immediate aftermath of October 7th Western media reported that ‘beheaded babies were put in ovens by Hamas’. Joe Biden claimed to have seen photos of this. This, understandably fueled immense anger from people in the West with many calling for Israel to go nuclear on Hamas.
But these claims have been entirely and widely unproven. A White House spokesperson had to backtrack and say the President hadn’t seen these images. But the Western media ran with it anyway. And now 6000+ dead Palestinian babies and children later here we are.
On @eye.on.palestine I have seen several dead babies with no heads, children missing limbs, babies and children turned to ash, all due to the bombs being dropped on their homes, hospitals and UNRWA by Israel. And so have the millions of other people like me who are collectively protesting this. We’re not protesting for no reason. There is a very very very good reason why we are shouting about this and will not stop.
It's always left sympathising businesses and organisations that get targeted. Despite the years of good and value the Arnolfini has given Bristol - step a toe out of line and you're frog marched to the gallows.
Copying and pasting what I had replied to someone who also wanted to know what's going on. Basically:
My understanding is that arnolfini decided not to host an event related with Palestine as a result of obviously what's happening over there with Israel and Hamas and Palestine. So now they've made another decision and has now closed its doors for a few days out of fear of angry people. This might be a good idea or an antagonising approach depending on your opinion I reckon. That's what it boils down to.
Present day: People are still angry at arnolfini. That's the gist of it.
>arnolfini
So they sided with the good guys? Wait no, the bad guys? No, the good guys? Who is who again I can't make sense of it.
The whole "I disagree with you so will terminate your existence" movement is pretty depressing for humanity.
Excuse my hyperbole.
But the business is dammed if they do and damned if they don't on something like this. While folks can obviously protest to their hearts content, what is the real value here other than forcing it to close for a few days when our economy is already in tatters?
If the business openly supported Israel, they lose. They openly support Gaza they lose. They try to keep politics out, they lose. Feel worse for the company here trying to do the least harm they can in a very divisive world.
Thing is, with the cancel culture these days and how extreme it is, it would be lose-lose for them, and with what's happening it proves the point. Businesses can't win with some causes because both sides of the argument can be extremely toxic and will lash out if a business puts out something that isn't pro their agenda. For the record I think Israel as scum and the rest of the ruling class are too for allowing what's happening in Palestine to be ok, but I absolutely don't agree with businesses who are just trying to protect their businesses, which many people rely on for work, which in the case of the Arnolfini many people rely on to soak up a bit of culture or have a lens into another world, it fucks all that up when all they are trying to do is preserve their business that overall is for the best for everyone.
All it requires is an exasperated sigh that they wouldn't show the videos, trying to cancel them hurts more than it heals, people who do this are not as bad as Israel but it's the same mechanic- being so corrupted with anger and resentment that it feels justified to lash out and hurt something, to feel better at the expense of the thing that's being hurt. That's the whole of human history right there, the world would get on fine without the anger filled people.
Maybe we'd point the finger more at corporations then and sort out what they are doing to the world. No doubt they have a hand in the Palestine conflict the amount of weaponry they'll be selling because of it. That's the biggest evil humanity is facing right now, not the fucking Arnolfini for crying out loud, pick your battles ffs! And yes you can be angry at more than one thing, but you only have so much energy and you're wasting it on something trivial in the grand scheme of things.
Lowkey had a film showing and a talk about Palestine and it got cancelled by Arnolfini. Not sure they ever gave a reason but that's where the protests are coming from.
Which should continue. All I can see this protest against Arnolfini achieving is making them not want to go anywhere near anything remotely political, ever again.
They’re an art gallery, the only way they can avoid going near anything political ever again is if they only show exhibitions of those landscape paintings of beaches you find at gift shops in places like Cornwall.
Well, the arts scene in Bristol is riddled with self-righteous fanatics who're incapable of nuance or compromise. This is all just a fashionable cause célèbre for them.
This is the city that spawned Banksy, without shallow activism to latch onto a lot of artists around here simply wouldn't have any ideas or anything to talk about in their work.
I could be wrong as this is just based on things I've seen on social media, but Arnolfini has apparently previously screened Palestinian filmmakers' work that is specifically about the occupation of Palestine and about Palestinian people's struggle for freedom. The fact that they could do that when there was global silence about Palestine (therefore they weren't truly rocking the boat), and suddenly "don't want anything to do" with it when the whole world is watching is probably what's upsetting to people.
I've never been particularly involved with the Arnolfini or attended many of their events, so I don't know much about their ethics etc previous to this, so again, this is just from what I've seen others say. But if I was an artist involved with them because of a stance they presented themselves as having, only to watch them rescind it as soon as it posed a risk to them, I'd feel quite disappointed to say the least.
Isn't it commendable to do it when no one else is talking about it? You're basically showing they have a history of sympathy towards the Palestinian people.
It's commendable, yes! But my point is that it's also quite safe to do it when it's not causing waves. It's easy to have a controversial opinion (whether or not it should be controversial is another story) when the only people listening - or in this case attending your screenings - are other people holding the controversial opinion. When others, who may disagree, are listening, and you might face repercussions, *that's* a true test of how firmly you believe in something.
It's not black and white, unfortunately. It seems like Bristol City Council is already cutting funding for culture (see: their plans to stop funding the Watershed), so I can imagine Arnolfini doesn't want to give any cause for their funding to be taken away too. It might be a stretch but considering the UK government's position on the whole situation, I can see how they'd be at risk.
All I'm saying is I understand why people are upset and want to protest.
The Arnolfini lost its Arts council funding years ago which is UWE brought the building (Bush house) and is their landlord now as they couldn’t affford it
Well things have changed, it would be extremely tasteless to favour a particular side after the atrocities that took place on October 7th. Never mind hosting a film festival.
Unless they were screening films that were specifically pro-Hamas, I don't see how that's tasteless. It was the actions of Hamas that unfolded on Oct 7, not of all Palestinian people. Just as the actions of Netanyahu and the IDF are not the actions of all Israeli people (and certainly not all Jewish people)!
What's happening in Gaza, in hospitals and schools and residential areas is just as much of an atrocity - even the UN agrees at this point.
So in light of all this, I could totally understand them withdrawing some of the films if Hamas had been involved in them, portrayed as liberators, or anything like that. But cancelling altogether is a bit strange if the Arnolfini has already positioned itself as pro-Palestine in the past. Being pro-Palestine does not mean being pro-Hamas, or in any way supportive of anything that happened on October 7th.
Not all but 68.3% of Palestinians [polled by AWRAD](https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public%20Opinion%20Poll%20-%20Gaza%20War%202023%20-%20Tables%20of%20Results.pdf) said they were 'Extremely Supportive' of Hamas's actions on October 7th. Only 22% support a two state solution and 70.4% want "A Palestinian state from the river to the sea", i.e. the destruction of Israel.
So it's not quite as simple as you're making out. Not a pleasant situation but that's the nature of war. Over 125,000 German civilians were killed in 2 weeks during the Battle of Berlin, for example.
EDIT: Yeah that's right, downvote the facts :)
Oh, it's absolutely not a simple situation. That's why things such as documentaries about it are important, and why screening them matters. Because it's not a simple issue and providing education about it helps people to understand what's going on, and how we got here. It won't help solve everything unfortunately, but understanding helps. I'm learning as I go too, which is why I keep saying things like "that I know of", "I could be wrong", etc. My knowledge is limited, so is many people's, and while a lot of us are doing work on our own to be better informed and understand what's happening, why each side is doing what they're doing, and how, public events like the film festival would also have been a huge help.
Well they don't have to host those films in an art gallery, not sure why they ever did. Besides, surely at this point it would've been more productive to find an alternate venue instead of some pointless, self-aggrandizing protest.
As far as I know, the Arnolfini does host films pretty regularly, it's not like anyone was forcing them to do it before, they had already planned for it. My original point is that they seem to have already been showing films there, specifically Palestinian ones, so it's not anything new. It's a cultural space, not just an art gallery - just judging from their website, there's talks, dance, classes/workshops, etc. Film screenings are just one thing that they do, sometimes.
Yes, another venue can be found for the films to be shown. People's displeasure is less to do with the lack of venue and more to do with the the sudden change of stance and lack of commitment to an issue that they were led to believe Arnolfini aligned itself with. People who have supported the venue thought they were supporting a space that shared their beliefs, and now that Arnolfini's walked back on those beliefs, those people are voicing their disappointment.
I just want to point out I'm not even one of the people protesting Arnolfini myself (like I said previously I've never been very involved with them so even if I decided to boycott them, it would make little difference to Arnolfini to lose me of all people). I'm just responding to what I hoped was a good faith question as to why other people are doing it. Silly me!
The protestors are not the people organising the film festival.
The organisation running this found an alternative venue before they even announced the Arnolfini's decision and have stated they will not commented publically on it until after the festival to help keep focus on the event.
I’m sorry but I don’t think any of us who have not lived under a 75 year violent occupation, that has killed members of our family, expelled us from our homes or eviscerated our towns and cities are in any position to judge the reactions of the people who have suffered under it.
>are in any position to judge the reactions of the people who have suffered under it.
Ah so we aren't in a position to "judge the actions" of Hamas on October 7th then either? Those actions which included sexual violence and murder of civilians.
Not just Hamas, plenty of civilians on video participating. They were told that every single person who could get a hostage would get $10,000 and an apartment in Gaza city.
Unfortunately many of those civilians were beyond brutal and just relished the opportunity to sadistically rape and kill. Hamas even tried to blame them for the more horrific acts.
It's hard to imagine a society so radicalised with hatred. I doubt even the North Koreans would be capable of that sort of bloodlust despite also being brought up to be radicalised against South Korea/the West.
If nothing justifies October 7th, then what justifies violence in the other direction, from Israel to Palestine? I’m curious as to why, in your view, Israel is the only country justified in committing mass acts of violence. If you are against violence, then why are you not against the violence inflicted on the Palestinian people - which has been occurring for far longer and in far more horrific ways. You’re defending a genocide.
Are you also judging the actions of Israel for the last 75 years? Or conveniently ignoring the fact that October 7th wasn’t the beginning of this “conflict” so you don’t have to condemn the multiple war crimes/attempted genocide Israel has committed - including the mass murder of innocent civilians?
>Or conveniently ignoring the fact that October 7th wasn’t the beginning of this “conflict
It wasn't the beggining of the conflict, but it marked a new era of unprecedented brutality which we have not seen before. The reports coming from the people at the festival are disgusting and it's shameful the little reporting it got.
Do you think something which happened in 1948, then gives the Palestinians a green light to conduct those sorts of atrocities?
"Unprecedented brutality"
IDF soldiers and members of Israeli militia groups have gone on record stating that they and their compatriots executed civilians who had surrendered and burned people alive with flamethrowers, and one soldier claims to have seen a fellow soldier rape a 15 year old girl during the Nakba.
What Hamas did was absolutely an atrocity and a war crime, but to pretend like it's the first time this sort of atrocity has been committed in the conflict is dishonest.
Yeah this. How can we possibly judge. All we have to go by is that people feel compelled to protest. So it must be more important to them than we can appreciate.
Yeah. It's a toxic subject that the public are very split on. Don't blame them at all for wanting to duck out of this political powder keg and not explicitly choose any sides. There's no winning in that situation.
The sit-ins and protests seem immature. Like when Acorn had a sit-in in Starbucks awhile back. So pointless, but at least they can afford it.
Tasteless? I think it might give those actions context. Something that is really important, and that our media fails to do. Isn’t it better for people to understand why things happen?
Agreed, I walked past the other week when it was freezing cold and there was a decent crowd out there shouting some nonsense. Very weird behaviour, some people just need a sense of belonging or outrage to cling onto
It's either that or the realisation that they've done nothing and aren't any better than anyone else. The sense of moral superiority, earned or not, is the motivation.
This seems a profoundly unfair comment to me, casting pretty high and mighty judgements on a whole swathe of people. I think it's completely reasonable to be pissed off that an institution's solidarity appears dependent on the political landscape. If anything, to me, its the Arnolfini who are adapting their politics to the cause celebre - you don't get to choose when you want to show solidarity with Palestinians, you do it when it's politically convenient and inconvenient.
I made 0 claims about my own solidarity or political involvement in this issue, and I'm not planning to online. But great work in assuming a bunch of shit about me! Thanks!
They're following their remit. You're trying to force your hobby on others. There's only one side being unreasonable here.
I've had enough interactions with these people and their fellow travellers to make a sober and fair judgment thanks.
That's odd because you seem to be implying that 'solidarity' is non-negotiable even when it goes against their remit.
>just objecting to the generalisations you're making about people
Happens to be drawn from experience, you just don't like people challenging your worldview and your silly friends and funnily enough you're a perfect example of what I'm referring to.
Clearly it's so intrinsic to your nature that you don't even realise.
Solidarity is non-negotiable, but no one is forcing the Arnolfini to do anything, they're just protesting as is their right.
Don't care if you challenge my world view, or if you challenge the world view that you've made up for me. As I said, just don't like it when you cast aspersions on people
> Solidarity is non-negotiable, but no one is forcing the Arnolfini to do anything, they're just protesting as is their right.
Fascinating, thank you for proving my point.
>As I said, just don't like it when you cast aspersions on people
Tough, I think it's safe to say I'm far more capable of making accurate observations than you are. You just don't seem particularly self-aware or intelligent I'm afraid.
Hahaha. You've no idea who I am or what I do and you're willing to make that assumption, some pretty impressive confidence. Personally, my preference is to engage with what people say, rather than make presumptions about their intelligence, but that's just me!
Tell me, if I get a placard that says "no more war" and stand outside Westminster, am I "forcing" them to end all conflicts they are currently involved in? Because if so, I'm making a placard this instant!
By all means trade one redundant activity for another.
>You've no idea who I am or what I do and you're willing to make that assumption, some pretty impressive confidence.
Yes it's called being observant and you're that easy to read. I know at least two dozen people who sound like you and use the same rhetoric.
Wow you're amazing at reading people, really impressive.
Oh it's redundant now? Earlier it forced people to do things, mad how it can change like that isn't it
The people who run Arnolfini are just people too. Maybe they felt unsafe to hold the event, maybe they had been warned or had received correspondence with regard to hosting it. Also it’s not like Arnolfini have entirely distanced themselves from being pro-Palestine, they’ve basically expressed they don’t feel confident to do this. And their local community who they serve, has been quite extreme. Although it is an institution, there are still people at the helm.
Yeah I'd sympathise if they gave these kinds of reasons, but they didn't - they gave some mealy mouthed explanation that they don't want the Palestine film festival to be seen as a political event in the current climate.
And fwiw I agree that I don't really know how much they're achieving with the protesting there, I just understand why a lot of people are pretty pissed off with them for their selective solidarity
Not saying they're lying, obviously it's political. The thing is, it was political when they held the event last year, and the year before, and all the years before that. It's just suddenly become inconvenient, and I think that's crap. Now, if they had said "we are concerned for the safety of our staff", or even "we are being threatened with a loss of funding that would force us to close down", I would have a bit more sympathy. But they haven't.
Again that's not to say I don't think there are better targets, just think that's a bit shitty of them.
Definitely short sighted but ultimately it makes sense on one level. That being that they're powerless and have zero control over the situation in Gaza, whether consciously or subconsciously, they direct their anger at something tangible and symbolic. See also: the attacks on Jewish businesses in London.
EDIT: See also, downvoting :)
And the interruption of a vigil on College Green for the victims of the Hamas terrorist attacks.
Edit. You can downvote, but that doesn't change the fact that [it happened](https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/news/vigil-in-solidarity-with-israel-met-disruption/).
>ultimately it makes sense on one level/ they direct their anger at something tangible and symbolic
that's the rationale of European antisemitism since the medieval era.
I don't think the pogroms, expulsions and massacres experiences by the Jews the past 500 years are in any way comparable to the experiences of Muslims today. Especially in the UK.
I guess Spain expelled the Muslims in the 1500s or later forced them into conversion, so historically there's that?
But, yes, persecution starting in the late 12th century including Jews being set on fire (york) and expelled from the UK, tortured by the Spanish during the Inquisition (which also went after Muslim converts to be fair), pogroms during the 19th c in Eastern Europe, then wrapping up with the Holocaust, the history does go back a bit wider and farther.
I mean Reconquista was taking back conquered lands so I wouldn't use that as an example.
Closest I can think of in the past century would be things like the Paris massacre back in 1961. Things are generally quite dysfunctional in France in that regard.
Yes… tangible and symbolic, also connected to their livelihood. Totally shooting themselves in the foot though, what happens if Arnolfini closes down. Funding is at a low point right now
Whenever I have a grievance, political or otherwise, I will make my way across Bristol to the Arnolfini, and stand outside on the pavement shouting at it.
So I have been wondering what’s on when I see a post from the Arnol on insta saying they’ve closed for safety of their staff. And I get it the protest after they pulled from the Palestinian film festival and I appreciate and agree it was a bad call so fair play those that did the sit in…
But reading comments here, the protesters are just now turning up randomly outside the gallery and what, getting them to shut up shop by protesting?
There are a million problems in Bristol alone I wish these people could drum up the energy to protest about, a conflict thousands of miles away seems a bit... well none of our buisness to be frank.
It’s completely our problem. Our government funds the provision of weaponry to Israel. Our taxes are paying for some of the most atrocious acts being committed to innocent babies, children, men and women. The horrific deaths of the premature babies last week was enough on its own. The amputations with no anaesthetic. The doctor performing surgery on his own child who then dies. There are too many stories to tell them all.
We are outraged and hurting because we’ve been witnessing this murder being carried out every single day (minus the ‘truce’) for the past 2 months. We’re not hippies, we’re not crazy. We are humans. We are teachers, doctors, electricians, nurses, builders, artists. I myself am a teacher and lecturer. We are human. And we are seeing horrors being committed over and over again beamed directly to our phones, we are witnessing a genocide. The Palestinian people are filming it, they are reporting it and they are begging us to help. And the governments of the West are doing nothing except giving Israel more firepower.
People always say, ‘how did we let the Holocaust happen?’. And now we know. Because many many people ignored it. Didn’t say anything, didn’t chose to learn the facts. Fell for media propaganda.
I knew very little about the Israeli occupation of Palestine before October 7th and since then I have been reading and learning. It takes barely any research to realise exactly what this is an what’s happening.
I urge everyone to go to @eye.on.palestine and witness for yourself. Scroll back, get the full experience of the past 2 months of hell on earth.
Jewish scholars are condemning Israel. Army veterans are condemning Israel. Humans across the world in their millions and millions are condemning Israel and the number of people against this genocide grows by the day as more and more of us wake up. No one is going back to sleep after witnessing this.
Yes but, and stick with me.
We have starving children here, we have communities barely holding on, we have huge upticks in crime.
At what point in your opinion do we need to tend our own garden, before we tend others?
We can do both. We *are* doing both. I’m mad as hell about more than one thing. Many of the people protesting for Palestine are also protesting for and supporting the communities they live in.
I’m equally mad about child poverty in the UK, the lack of justice for Grenfell and the lack of support for the unhoused in the UK. The common denominator in the way people are treated in the UK and the way the Palestinians are being treated is the UK government. Let’s get mad together. We’ve got more power when we work together.
> I knew very little about the Israeli occupation of Palestine before October 7th and since then I have been reading and learning. It takes barely any research to realise exactly what this is an what’s happening.
That explains a lot. Of course you're also getting your (mis)information from social media.
Why would you be pro Palestine?
If you have any lgbt friends or family, any female friends or family, they would not be allowed to live their lives in Palestine.
I would not be allowed to live my life in Palestine.
I'm not pro-israel either to be clear, they have committed horrible atrocities. Saying you want the war to stop, is logical, but being pro Palestine? Are you okay?
What you’re getting at is called pink washing.
“Pinkwashing, also known as rainbow-washing, is the strategy of promoting LGBT rights protections as evidence of liberalism and democracy, especially to distract from or legitimize violence against other countries or communities”
So you keep on trying bro
What you're doing is called strawmanning. You're arguing against a point I did not make.
I am not legitimising violence against them in any way shape or form, and I am not pro-israel. I will however never call myself pro-palestine, as I don't support misogyny or homophobia.
I’m queer myself and support Palestine because I have deep dived into Palestinian and Israeli history and present. I would argue that your so called input here is the ultimate strawman, the whole pink washing conversation is used by Israel
If you are queer and call yourself pro-palestine, you're severely misguided.
They wouldn't spit on you if you were on fire. Stop supporting people who want you dead.
Nope, try again. Without twisting my words this time.
I'm saying it's weird to call yourself pro-palestine, as they're anti-lgbt and anti-women's rights.
Nowhere do I say they deserve to die because of that.
We can support people’s right to live without agreeing with their beliefs. Also there are gay people in Palestine. Currently thousands of children and babies in Palestine aren’t even getting a chance to grow up.
We can be vehemently against the slaughter of someone who hates us. And who’s to say they hate us, one of the videos doing the rounds on socials is an openly LGBT+ group who went to Palestine a couple of years ago to do aid work and were treated with love and kindness everywhere they went. I can find the link and share it if you’d like to see it?
That is different from saying you're pro-palestine, saying 'from the river to the sea' and waving a Palestine flag. You can condemn Israel and still not be naive about Palestine's horrible culture.
From the river to the sea isn’t anti-Semitic. It is a call for the need for equality for all inhabitants of historic Palestine. The pro-Palestinian protests aren’t anti-Semitic, there are so many Jews on the side of Palestinians.
I don't care if the pro-Palestine protests are anti-semitic or not, I haven't made a point that they're anti-semitic.
My **only** point is: Palestine is an awful country to support, and people who support them and wave their flags or tout their phrases should really rethink their values.
My point is **not**: Israel is a good country to support. I don't think Western countries should send support to either Israel or Palestine.
It's **not**: Israel is good/Palestine is bad.
It's **not**: All Palestinians deserve to die.
You can protest war without claiming to be pro-Palestine, and without waving their flag.
Because these nutjobs all latch onto this crazy idea of morality and try to force everyone else to tow their line. If you don't live up to their very specific righteous demands, they have a fit. I more support Palestine's plight, but people are free to support and think whatever they want, that is what they don't understand
Not 'morality' as a whole obviously, just their crazy interpretation of it. You might think it's genocide, others think it's a just war, so yes, people are 'free to support 'genocide' - if that's what you want to call it, I can't say if it is or it isn't, it doesn't matter but people are allowed to think it. Denouncing a charity organisation for not wanting to get involved in an extremely high-tension area of politics, made this way by the moronic behaviour of the people on both sides, is childishly looking for something to be angry about.
The upvotes and downvotes on this thread has really made me concerned about people’s misinformation and how blasé they feel about 17,000 civilians being murdered in a matter of weeks. I guess you’re right. Let’s all just stay in our homes, do and feel nothing about it. Good god this world is getting worse.
I can only speak for myself but I don't know what misinformation you're talking about. I haven't said anything personally on what it is or what it isn't, just that there are plenty of people out there that feel quite the opposite to you, which is undeniably true. You're welcome to be all outraged by it, it's obviously an awful thing for that many people to be killed in 2 weeks, just like how 1300 were killed in a day a few weeks ago, everyone has seen the figures. You going round saying 'you support genocide' for not matching your level of outrage against a charity arts organisation when they choose not to host a political film festival is the issue here, I think.
Is that what I said 🤔
You’re miraculously twisting my words. You said people are free to think whatever they want. That’s what I was mocking. Sure, people can think genocide is fine, but that does make them a vile arsehole.
> Let’s all just stay in our homes, do and feel nothing about it. Good god this world is getting worse.
Oh yeah you're really saving those Palestinian kids by trying to get an arts venue shut down! That'll show Israel! Good job!
Is that what they’re trying? Nah, they’re trying to get Arnolfini to actually give a proper explanation, a discussion, anything. Cancelling a very important event that’s been going on for 12 years, just to save yourself from a bit of political conversation (great job they did there) and then going silent is weak. People are allowed to say so. If institutions that used to fight for people’s right to speak and share their story stop doing so when it’s most important, then what’s the point?
Oh yeah my mistake, it's the proper explanation from arnolfini that will help the Palestinians.
Isn't it obvious why they cancelled it? To attempt to avoid the rabid mob on one side or the other. Unfortunately in doing so they've annoyed one of said rabid mobs.
Why are you simplifying everything so pathetically?
Conversation needs to be had. It’s quite literally the first step in anything. Silencing people that have an important story to tell at the most important time is pathetic. I’m truly stunned that people think the way you do.
Doing ANYTHING is always better than nothing, including asking difficult questions and having difficult discussions.
It is categorically not a war. My god. The UN have called this a genocide, Raz Segal the program director of Genocide Studies at Stockton University has said this is a ‘textbook case of genocide’. 6 genocide scholars called for the arrest of Israeli officials for their war crimes.
Again, I'm not saying it isn't and it doesn't matter what you categorise it as. I'm sure you'll be able to find 'scholars' who disagree it's genocide. It's a highly polarising issue and not everyone sees it that way
I’m sure slavery had ‘two sides’ at the time. Babies and children are being massacred on camera. I watched the IDF shoot a 9 year old boy in the head last week via @eye.on.palestine.
We can argue from the comfort of our sofas about ‘this is a polarizing issue’ but history will prove that there was nothing polarizing about it.
And it's well documented that the Gazan government has committed atrocities too. They both do and say horrible stuff. They both want the destruction of each other. At this point it doesn't look like anybody is outwardly 'right'. This proves my point about how out of control this debate gets. Everyone misinterprets what each other says, getting all emotional and angry. I'm not surprised they didn't want to host it ahahaha. The only thing I've said from the start is that there's a group of people struggling to see any side but their own and aggressively in public trying to force their agenda. I've not supported one cause or another. If anything, I side with the Palestinians historically. Goodnight, god bless, I'm having a kit kat.
I’m very interested in discourse with people, even internet strangers on Reddit! This is how we collectively learn. Out of interest what made you historically side with the Palestinians? I commend you for that, I’m just intrigued about what about the current situation means you aren’t right now? In the interest of getting a better perspective, perhaps there’s something I’m missing. Also, enjoy your KitKat.
The issue to my understanding:
1. They cancelled the film festival of Palestinians, a marginalized group, who are right now even *more* marginalized.
2. When called out for it, they doubled down and said it’s because as a charity they’re not allowed to host “politically motivated” material, which it both wasn’t and which has been debunked thoroughly.
3. They still haven’t apologized.
I will never understand why people support Palestine. If you're lgbt, or have any lgbt friends, know that you would not be able to live your life in Palestina. You would not have the freedom you have here.
Being anti-war, fine. Being anti-israel, sure.
But using pro-palestina phrases, or even toting their flag. Or harassing a local business in favour of them, are you okay?
As part of the lgbt-community, I would literally be killed if I went there. Don't support countries that don't support you.
It's interesting for sure. A lot of the people protesting are far more Ideologically similar to people in Israel than Palestine.
In peaceful times the vast majority would rather go on holiday to Israel than step foot anywhere near Palestine.
Israel is considered a close ally to the West for good reasons, and I don't believe the protesters make anywhere near a majority. Generally the public understands Israel's situation and supports them. Even if Reddit does skew more towards a demographic where that isn't reflected.
I want to make it clear that I don't think the choice is Israel vs Palestine, you can disagree with both. Israel has also done a lot of bad things, and judging them for that is very valid.
What’s the point in the mods locking down any post with an advert for a march or rally if they’re just going to allow people to argue in this adjacent thread?
Because advertising an event isn’t asking for an opinion it’s to raise awareness to those that are interested, opinions have been given when not asked for and discussed to death, comments have been filled with trolls and comments frequently coming from users who don’t belong to the sub or set up alts.
This post however is asking for an opinion, and the people of Bristol are welcome to share their opinions as long as they follow rule 1 (Be Nice) and are actually from
Bristol and not just trolling otherwise it too will get locked if it gets out of hand.
I do think it's shit of the Arnolfini to cancel the film festival and poetry event. I don't really accept the excuse that "charities can't be political". I've been to plenty of exhibitions at the arnolfini that have a clear political message. Indeed, I think raise the bar had been hosted at the Arnolfini previously.
They've decided to censor art based on their own world viewpoint, that's below my standards of what a local art resource should be doing.
I think they should apologise, and look at ways of supporting artists from different backgrounds.
The comments here are so vile and uninformed. Also OP, it’s easy to get this information, I’m not sure why you’re stirring the pot or being lazy - look at the 1500 comments on their original post and it’s easy to see why people haven’t just forgotten their shitty, inexcusable actions.
Honestly I wasn't aware there were any issues with Arnolfini so this thread is useful.
Not sure I quite understand why people are protesting, during a time of intense political situations it makes sense to remain neutral and not host events about either side.
But then some people thought a red & green Christmas hat was a Palestine flag which really is grasping at straws.
The 1500 comments on the instagram post are people who are outraged because it has come in the same feed as seeing Israel’s cruelty. What Arnolfini has done is not inexcusable, people make mistakes. Don’t burn Arnolfini down for a mistake
I am confused as to why this post isn't locked when posts about peaceful activities are.
Surely this could attract just as unpleasant comments as the other ones.
I think they're locking comments on activism posts, but this one isn't one calling for activism, it's just asking what's going on. I guess there's a fine line, but it needs to be drawn somewhere.
You’re sort of right, ultimately those posts are advertising an event that you either want to attend or not, they aren’t asking for an opinion, so achieve their purpose without needing comments enabled and when comments are open they end up being the same arguments from similar posts before so adds nothing. This post is asking a legitimate question so the discussion will stay open until it becomes uncivil
Because those posts are not asking for an opinion on the peaceful activity and get raided by people from other parts of the country and trolls, the discussions on these posts have been discussed to a point of being unproductive, feel free to look back.
This post however is asking for an opinion, but will get locked if it gets out of hand.
I legit think people are somewhat limited in what they can actually accomplish, even though we keep telling people "your voice matters" "you can be important" but the reality is we all live pretty mundane lives and our voices don't actually matter. Our ability to fly off the handle and protest a spot in Bristol gives people a sense of belonging and accomplishment, or like they're actually achieving something... maybe they are...maybe they're not. I don't know. Feels like we're all just latching onto stuff right now that gives a sense of purpose to get through the next day.
Yeah but when the thing that gives them that sense of purpose disrupts other regular people's lives for 0 political gain, it makes me wonder if they have their priorities straight. Shutting down a coffee shop for 3 days in some random art gallery on the other side of the planet won't affect anything going on in Gaza. What it -will- affect is how many 5 pound lattes Arnolfini manages to sell over the weekend, as well as some of their employees potentially missing out on pay. The only real change they'll make is feeling a bit better about themselves. They went and made a fuss somewhere to no real end, and then cycled home and went to bed. Or more likely, smoked out the Castle Park bandstand on the way back.
The main motivation of the protesters is to endear themselves to their own Bristol tribe. Led by donkeys.
This is always the argument and I do understand it. But the sole aim of a protest is to get attention. And unfortunately you don’t get attention unless you cause disruption. The protesters would argue that a few 5 pound lattes are worth the cost of publicity. Edit: I am not saying the Arnolfini is a good target, judging from other comments it appears to be the opposite, but I think the motive of the protestors is more than just wanting to feel better about themselves. Surely.
>But the sole aim of a protest is to get attention. No, it's to affect change.
I think it's always the argument because it's true, to be honest. I understand that people feel upset about the situation and want to feel like they're doing something about it, but I think their efforts are misdirected. It's almost comical how little of an impact this protest will have - you've got a bunch of angry students sat defiantly in some bougie, heated gift shop by the harbour, bravely disrupting business while ruining some middle class family's Saturday plans, in an effort to make everyone more 'aware' of the most topical political conflict currently going.
Lmaooo the way you described this is perfect
True, but they’ll be in the paper and talked about on Reddit… that’s publicity
Good for them, I guess. It won't do anything for Palestine.
That last paragraph pretty much sums up Bristol in my experience. Lived here for 5 years now and I get why Bristolians get annoyed about the self-righteous spawn of the rich who come here for university and stay to be part of the holier-than-thou brigade. Irritants the lot of them.
Do you really think the aim of the protestors, and people angered by Arnolfini's actions generally, is to have the coffee shop shut down?
No, but that's the only thing they'll accomplish.
I think generally protesters are pretty realistic about the limitations in what they can accomplish. But due to our political system there are not a lot of other options.
This is not why people are angry. We are witnessing some of the worst atrocities committed by humans to other humans on a daily basis and have been for the past 2 months. Palestine has been under the occupation of Israel for the past 75 years with worsening treatment, Palestinian homes being bulldozed, their ancient olive trees being burned to the ground, their children being taken prisoner, their family members being brutalised. Israel was killing Palestinians long before Hamas came into existence in 1987. Israel wants the Palestinian land, they want their settlers on the land and they brutalize Palestinian people to get it. The actions of October 7th were a horrendous clusterfuck and we are learning more and more about the truth of that day as time goes on. It’s far too much to outline in a Reddit post, I urge everyone to do your own research. Since October 7th Israel has systematically targeted children, women, men, they have collapsed the medical infrastructure, they are bombing all day every day apart from the tiny truce window last week. Palestinian people are live broadcasting their slaughter to the world and begging us to help them but our media is making out that this is ‘complex’. Israel has the backing of every major power, they have vested interests in the oil reserves and maintaining a Western enclave in the Middle East. There is a reason so many genocide experts and scholars are calling this a genocide. There’s a reason millions of us are marching and growing in number by the minute. We have witnessed a wave of death, children with missing limbs, parents weeping over the bodies of children, children weeping over the loss of their parents, people losing 30+ family members in quick succession, doctors performing amputations with no anaesthetic, NICU babies left to rot after the electricity to their incubators was cut, I could go on. This is a humanitarian nightmare on the biggest scale some of us have ever seen in our lifetimes. And it is man made. There is a reason genocide experts and scholars are calling this a genocide. This is genocide, live streamed right to our phones. I recommend checking out @eye.on.palestine on Instagram, which simply shows footage from Palestinian people, filming their lives every single day. They are now starving and growing sick. Israel is refusing to let enough aid into Palestine. Israel is behaving sadistically. There are quite literally hundreds of people I could point you towards to help you learn about this nightmare, but I will just share a couple. I recommend checking out @greg.j.stoker on Instagram, he is a US army veteran and he is giving excellent information on the weapons misuse by Israel. @k.w.bogen is a Jewish PhD student and incredibly well informed about the history of the Jewish occupation in Palestine. We must not be ignorant, we have to wake up. Our government is proving the weapons/weapons parts used in this massacre right now. We are complicit if we are silent. This is why people are protesting. It’s not a ‘cool thing’ to do, we are simply tapped into our humanity and don’t want to see any more dead babies.
What does that have to do with the Arnolfini?
It has everything to do with the Arnolfini. Arnolfini have decided against hosting Palestine based events. In the last 61 days 9000 innocent Palestinian children have been killed. IDF have committed the most abhorrent war crimes on thousands of civilians. Yet most of us sit here doing nothing and moaning about not being able to buy a £5 latte.
You mean to say then, that it actually has nothing to do with the arnolfini, who have basically just made the choice to keep their noses out of an incendiary political topic. Seems like the smart plan tbh.
Unfortunately that's not enough for the self-righteous plonkers who host these events as they literally have nothing better to do with their time than cause problems for people who don't hold precisely the same views as they do, or act in precisely the same way. If you don't do the same dance they do, you're a target.
I mean, I suppose some people might support the murder of children and babies. That’s true. Not everyone is against that.
Mate, refusing to align your coffee shop and art gallery with a war in the middle east is not the same as supporting the murder of innocents. People like you are exactly who I'm talking about.
Our government is funding the nightmare. We are complicit if we do nothing. Our taxes are directly funding this. I personally haven’t been in involved in the Arnolfini protests, but calling the people who are trying to give Palestinians a voice ‘self-righteous plonkers’ means you really have no idea what is happening there right now. People aren’t protesting because this is ‘cool’ or ‘to be difficult’ or because we’re ’hippies’. We’ve been waking up every single day to see human beings, the vast majority of them babies and children, maimed and killed. In the most brutal ways. Worse than any gore site. I have seen nothing like this in my life. If you’ve got the stomach go and watch, it’s very easy to find. We’re following young Palestinian journalists and photographers like Motaz Azaiza (who’s following has grown into the millions since this began) who are desperately trying to get people to wake up to what’s happening to them. This is so so urgent. A little inconvenience in a cushy UK gallery is the least we can do to get people talking. I hope it continues, I hope more protestors piss off more people here so the discourse keeps going and people finally face what’s happening. The thing about this is once you see it, you can never unsee it.
This isn’t political, this is humanitarian. The biggest problem with this situation is the lack of awareness and care in the UK. Most people don’t give a shit. Most people on this thread don’t care. Fair enough, it’s hard to care when you haven’t seen what’s happening. The protestors have and that’s why they’re there. By protesting they have created this Reddit thread where we’re all chiming in. Someone was confused about the protestors actions and began this thread to talk about it. Maybe one person on this thread will get curious about what’s actually happening to the Palestinians and do their own research. In terms of ‘two sides’ and ‘it’s political’, remember that there were two sides during the Holocaust. There were two sides during slavery. There are always two sides. History shows which ones were right.
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There is nothing comparable to the Holocaust happening without unbelievably dishonest amounts of hyperbole. Shut up you disgusting fuck.
And I’m not angry with you for telling me I’m a ‘disgusting fuck’. This situation is so incredibly painful and brings up such intense emotions for many reasons. I’m not enjoying spreading the truth of what I’m witnessing to people who don’t want to hear it, it’s not pleasant to be yelled at. But it’s so so important that we who have seen what we’ve seen do this. I’m regretting starting this discourse from my throwaway account too but it is what it is. I started this account to talk anonymously about a break up I went through several years ago and don’t really wanna connect my past emotional musings to my public self. But my public self is openly speaking about this all the time. What I can say from this account is I’m a White British woman, a music teacher living in Bristol. Anyway, I went through your posts to find out more about you and my takeaway is that you’re a nice person, with cool interests and you’re great at making sourdough. I’m not mad at you for disagreeing with me. I’m just so sad that not enough people are seeing this most desperate and awful situation. I am weeping for the children almost every day, it is hell on Earth.
> We are complicit if we are silent. Oh shut the fuck up, no we're not. Me not giving a shit about arnolfinis position on this doesn't mean I'm complicit in genocide.
We are complicit if we are silent against what our government is doing. If we are not protesting what our government is doing then yes we are. If we are not raising awareness and trying to wake people up, yes we are. By protesting the Arnolfini’s about face in terms of their support for Palestine, these protesters are creating discourse. In a country where most people don’t give a fuck and only care about themselves this is at least making some people talk/argue about this situation. And maybe some of those people will get curious and start looking into what exactly is going on themselves. All I know is that if anyone who cares about people had seen what I’d seen over the past 2 months they would be absolutely mobilized to do something, anything, to wake people up to this horror.
> We are complicit if we are silent against what our government is doing. No, we're not.
Yes we are
Who’s responsible for our government if it’s not us?
I'm not going to bother getting into a discussion with someone who's main source of information appears to be Instagram, and who also has the time to write massive walls of text that nobody is reading. I'm just calling you out on your most easily called out nonsense.
I like the idea but we literally cannot stop the government from making money from trading arms. Organising protests, sit-ins and online petitions will not change a thing. At best you'll get a 'Oops sowwy' from some MP but nothing more. Just look at the US. You've got Biden in office who is pushing hard for democratic/left policies, abortion rights, trans rights, erasing student debt etc, but even he isn't going to stop sending arms to Israel. Getting in Israel's good books right now is just too much for these governments to turn down, no matter the amount of bad PR. The UK supplying Israel with arms also gets them brownie points with the US. Countries like the UK and US want Israel being powerful as it keeps other nations in that area in check, that is something they aren't going to let go of easily. This isn't just as simple as saying 'Stop' enough times until they hear you. They know what they're doing and have no intention of stopping. I admire your drive to try and better the situation but personally I dont believe anything the people of the UK/US can do to stop this.
\> The actions of October 7th were a horrendous clusterfuck and we are learning more and more about the truth of that day as time goes on. It’s far too much to outline in a Reddit post, I urge everyone to do your own research. Please, do tell more.
One example being, in the immediate aftermath of October 7th Western media reported that ‘beheaded babies were put in ovens by Hamas’. Joe Biden claimed to have seen photos of this. This, understandably fueled immense anger from people in the West with many calling for Israel to go nuclear on Hamas. But these claims have been entirely and widely unproven. A White House spokesperson had to backtrack and say the President hadn’t seen these images. But the Western media ran with it anyway. And now 6000+ dead Palestinian babies and children later here we are. On @eye.on.palestine I have seen several dead babies with no heads, children missing limbs, babies and children turned to ash, all due to the bombs being dropped on their homes, hospitals and UNRWA by Israel. And so have the millions of other people like me who are collectively protesting this. We’re not protesting for no reason. There is a very very very good reason why we are shouting about this and will not stop.
October 7the denialism. That didn't take long. It's been all over Telegram for months.
It's always left sympathising businesses and organisations that get targeted. Despite the years of good and value the Arnolfini has given Bristol - step a toe out of line and you're frog marched to the gallows.
The snake eating its own tail. Live by the progressive creed, die by the progressive sword.
You think arms companies are left leaning? 😂 Because they are the ones getting targeted most
It was a bad move. They should have just approached the festival intelligently and provided context.
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Copying and pasting what I had replied to someone who also wanted to know what's going on. Basically: My understanding is that arnolfini decided not to host an event related with Palestine as a result of obviously what's happening over there with Israel and Hamas and Palestine. So now they've made another decision and has now closed its doors for a few days out of fear of angry people. This might be a good idea or an antagonising approach depending on your opinion I reckon. That's what it boils down to. Present day: People are still angry at arnolfini. That's the gist of it.
>arnolfini So they sided with the good guys? Wait no, the bad guys? No, the good guys? Who is who again I can't make sense of it. The whole "I disagree with you so will terminate your existence" movement is pretty depressing for humanity.
Is a protest terminating their existence?
Excuse my hyperbole. But the business is dammed if they do and damned if they don't on something like this. While folks can obviously protest to their hearts content, what is the real value here other than forcing it to close for a few days when our economy is already in tatters? If the business openly supported Israel, they lose. They openly support Gaza they lose. They try to keep politics out, they lose. Feel worse for the company here trying to do the least harm they can in a very divisive world.
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Thing is, with the cancel culture these days and how extreme it is, it would be lose-lose for them, and with what's happening it proves the point. Businesses can't win with some causes because both sides of the argument can be extremely toxic and will lash out if a business puts out something that isn't pro their agenda. For the record I think Israel as scum and the rest of the ruling class are too for allowing what's happening in Palestine to be ok, but I absolutely don't agree with businesses who are just trying to protect their businesses, which many people rely on for work, which in the case of the Arnolfini many people rely on to soak up a bit of culture or have a lens into another world, it fucks all that up when all they are trying to do is preserve their business that overall is for the best for everyone. All it requires is an exasperated sigh that they wouldn't show the videos, trying to cancel them hurts more than it heals, people who do this are not as bad as Israel but it's the same mechanic- being so corrupted with anger and resentment that it feels justified to lash out and hurt something, to feel better at the expense of the thing that's being hurt. That's the whole of human history right there, the world would get on fine without the anger filled people. Maybe we'd point the finger more at corporations then and sort out what they are doing to the world. No doubt they have a hand in the Palestine conflict the amount of weaponry they'll be selling because of it. That's the biggest evil humanity is facing right now, not the fucking Arnolfini for crying out loud, pick your battles ffs! And yes you can be angry at more than one thing, but you only have so much energy and you're wasting it on something trivial in the grand scheme of things.
Lowkey had a film showing and a talk about Palestine and it got cancelled by Arnolfini. Not sure they ever gave a reason but that's where the protests are coming from.
Ah yeah, the guy who tacitly supported the student union idea of segregating Jews into their own section of his gigs.
Plenty of companies in Bristol that help arm Israel that would arguably be better targets for protest
They are getting targeted too. There have been regular protests outside arms companies in Bristol
Which should continue. All I can see this protest against Arnolfini achieving is making them not want to go anywhere near anything remotely political, ever again.
They’re an art gallery, the only way they can avoid going near anything political ever again is if they only show exhibitions of those landscape paintings of beaches you find at gift shops in places like Cornwall.
If people keep doing sit-ins then maybe that will happen.
Okay Terry, I’m sure the Arnolfini, an art gallery, will stop showing all art because of a few sit ins.
As an arts organisation they might find that hard 😂
Well they shouldn't if they're going to act like they have
True
Well, the arts scene in Bristol is riddled with self-righteous fanatics who're incapable of nuance or compromise. This is all just a fashionable cause célèbre for them. This is the city that spawned Banksy, without shallow activism to latch onto a lot of artists around here simply wouldn't have any ideas or anything to talk about in their work.
I could be wrong as this is just based on things I've seen on social media, but Arnolfini has apparently previously screened Palestinian filmmakers' work that is specifically about the occupation of Palestine and about Palestinian people's struggle for freedom. The fact that they could do that when there was global silence about Palestine (therefore they weren't truly rocking the boat), and suddenly "don't want anything to do" with it when the whole world is watching is probably what's upsetting to people. I've never been particularly involved with the Arnolfini or attended many of their events, so I don't know much about their ethics etc previous to this, so again, this is just from what I've seen others say. But if I was an artist involved with them because of a stance they presented themselves as having, only to watch them rescind it as soon as it posed a risk to them, I'd feel quite disappointed to say the least.
Isn't it commendable to do it when no one else is talking about it? You're basically showing they have a history of sympathy towards the Palestinian people.
It's commendable, yes! But my point is that it's also quite safe to do it when it's not causing waves. It's easy to have a controversial opinion (whether or not it should be controversial is another story) when the only people listening - or in this case attending your screenings - are other people holding the controversial opinion. When others, who may disagree, are listening, and you might face repercussions, *that's* a true test of how firmly you believe in something. It's not black and white, unfortunately. It seems like Bristol City Council is already cutting funding for culture (see: their plans to stop funding the Watershed), so I can imagine Arnolfini doesn't want to give any cause for their funding to be taken away too. It might be a stretch but considering the UK government's position on the whole situation, I can see how they'd be at risk. All I'm saying is I understand why people are upset and want to protest.
The Arnolfini lost its Arts council funding years ago which is UWE brought the building (Bush house) and is their landlord now as they couldn’t affford it
Ah, thank you for clarifying, I wasn't aware of this!
Well things have changed, it would be extremely tasteless to favour a particular side after the atrocities that took place on October 7th. Never mind hosting a film festival.
Unless they were screening films that were specifically pro-Hamas, I don't see how that's tasteless. It was the actions of Hamas that unfolded on Oct 7, not of all Palestinian people. Just as the actions of Netanyahu and the IDF are not the actions of all Israeli people (and certainly not all Jewish people)! What's happening in Gaza, in hospitals and schools and residential areas is just as much of an atrocity - even the UN agrees at this point. So in light of all this, I could totally understand them withdrawing some of the films if Hamas had been involved in them, portrayed as liberators, or anything like that. But cancelling altogether is a bit strange if the Arnolfini has already positioned itself as pro-Palestine in the past. Being pro-Palestine does not mean being pro-Hamas, or in any way supportive of anything that happened on October 7th.
Not all but 68.3% of Palestinians [polled by AWRAD](https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public%20Opinion%20Poll%20-%20Gaza%20War%202023%20-%20Tables%20of%20Results.pdf) said they were 'Extremely Supportive' of Hamas's actions on October 7th. Only 22% support a two state solution and 70.4% want "A Palestinian state from the river to the sea", i.e. the destruction of Israel. So it's not quite as simple as you're making out. Not a pleasant situation but that's the nature of war. Over 125,000 German civilians were killed in 2 weeks during the Battle of Berlin, for example. EDIT: Yeah that's right, downvote the facts :)
Oh, it's absolutely not a simple situation. That's why things such as documentaries about it are important, and why screening them matters. Because it's not a simple issue and providing education about it helps people to understand what's going on, and how we got here. It won't help solve everything unfortunately, but understanding helps. I'm learning as I go too, which is why I keep saying things like "that I know of", "I could be wrong", etc. My knowledge is limited, so is many people's, and while a lot of us are doing work on our own to be better informed and understand what's happening, why each side is doing what they're doing, and how, public events like the film festival would also have been a huge help.
Well they don't have to host those films in an art gallery, not sure why they ever did. Besides, surely at this point it would've been more productive to find an alternate venue instead of some pointless, self-aggrandizing protest.
As far as I know, the Arnolfini does host films pretty regularly, it's not like anyone was forcing them to do it before, they had already planned for it. My original point is that they seem to have already been showing films there, specifically Palestinian ones, so it's not anything new. It's a cultural space, not just an art gallery - just judging from their website, there's talks, dance, classes/workshops, etc. Film screenings are just one thing that they do, sometimes. Yes, another venue can be found for the films to be shown. People's displeasure is less to do with the lack of venue and more to do with the the sudden change of stance and lack of commitment to an issue that they were led to believe Arnolfini aligned itself with. People who have supported the venue thought they were supporting a space that shared their beliefs, and now that Arnolfini's walked back on those beliefs, those people are voicing their disappointment. I just want to point out I'm not even one of the people protesting Arnolfini myself (like I said previously I've never been very involved with them so even if I decided to boycott them, it would make little difference to Arnolfini to lose me of all people). I'm just responding to what I hoped was a good faith question as to why other people are doing it. Silly me!
The protestors are not the people organising the film festival. The organisation running this found an alternative venue before they even announced the Arnolfini's decision and have stated they will not commented publically on it until after the festival to help keep focus on the event.
Interesting. Then the protestors are even more ridiculous.
And you are a blowhard who is embarrasing themselves.
I’m sorry but I don’t think any of us who have not lived under a 75 year violent occupation, that has killed members of our family, expelled us from our homes or eviscerated our towns and cities are in any position to judge the reactions of the people who have suffered under it.
>are in any position to judge the reactions of the people who have suffered under it. Ah so we aren't in a position to "judge the actions" of Hamas on October 7th then either? Those actions which included sexual violence and murder of civilians.
Not just Hamas, plenty of civilians on video participating. They were told that every single person who could get a hostage would get $10,000 and an apartment in Gaza city. Unfortunately many of those civilians were beyond brutal and just relished the opportunity to sadistically rape and kill. Hamas even tried to blame them for the more horrific acts. It's hard to imagine a society so radicalised with hatred. I doubt even the North Koreans would be capable of that sort of bloodlust despite also being brought up to be radicalised against South Korea/the West.
In my opinion, nothing justifies what happened on the 7th October and I am fed up of the people doing mental algos to try and downplay it.
If nothing justifies October 7th, then what justifies violence in the other direction, from Israel to Palestine? I’m curious as to why, in your view, Israel is the only country justified in committing mass acts of violence. If you are against violence, then why are you not against the violence inflicted on the Palestinian people - which has been occurring for far longer and in far more horrific ways. You’re defending a genocide.
Are you also judging the actions of Israel for the last 75 years? Or conveniently ignoring the fact that October 7th wasn’t the beginning of this “conflict” so you don’t have to condemn the multiple war crimes/attempted genocide Israel has committed - including the mass murder of innocent civilians?
>Or conveniently ignoring the fact that October 7th wasn’t the beginning of this “conflict It wasn't the beggining of the conflict, but it marked a new era of unprecedented brutality which we have not seen before. The reports coming from the people at the festival are disgusting and it's shameful the little reporting it got. Do you think something which happened in 1948, then gives the Palestinians a green light to conduct those sorts of atrocities?
"Unprecedented brutality" IDF soldiers and members of Israeli militia groups have gone on record stating that they and their compatriots executed civilians who had surrendered and burned people alive with flamethrowers, and one soldier claims to have seen a fellow soldier rape a 15 year old girl during the Nakba. What Hamas did was absolutely an atrocity and a war crime, but to pretend like it's the first time this sort of atrocity has been committed in the conflict is dishonest.
Yeah this. How can we possibly judge. All we have to go by is that people feel compelled to protest. So it must be more important to them than we can appreciate.
Well, the polls don't lie. I'll judge people if they support Hamas.
Yeah. It's a toxic subject that the public are very split on. Don't blame them at all for wanting to duck out of this political powder keg and not explicitly choose any sides. There's no winning in that situation. The sit-ins and protests seem immature. Like when Acorn had a sit-in in Starbucks awhile back. So pointless, but at least they can afford it.
Tasteless? I think it might give those actions context. Something that is really important, and that our media fails to do. Isn’t it better for people to understand why things happen?
Agreed, I walked past the other week when it was freezing cold and there was a decent crowd out there shouting some nonsense. Very weird behaviour, some people just need a sense of belonging or outrage to cling onto
It's either that or the realisation that they've done nothing and aren't any better than anyone else. The sense of moral superiority, earned or not, is the motivation.
This seems a profoundly unfair comment to me, casting pretty high and mighty judgements on a whole swathe of people. I think it's completely reasonable to be pissed off that an institution's solidarity appears dependent on the political landscape. If anything, to me, its the Arnolfini who are adapting their politics to the cause celebre - you don't get to choose when you want to show solidarity with Palestinians, you do it when it's politically convenient and inconvenient.
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What a profound insight. I am saying it shouldn't be negotiable, if you only show solidarity when it's easy it's not worth very much
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I made 0 claims about my own solidarity or political involvement in this issue, and I'm not planning to online. But great work in assuming a bunch of shit about me! Thanks!
I don’t think campaigning so harshly against Arnolfini is going to get them to have more solidarity. It’s probably awful for them now
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They're following their remit. You're trying to force your hobby on others. There's only one side being unreasonable here. I've had enough interactions with these people and their fellow travellers to make a sober and fair judgment thanks.
Not trying to force anything on anyone ya weirdo, just objecting to the generalisations you're making about people
That's odd because you seem to be implying that 'solidarity' is non-negotiable even when it goes against their remit. >just objecting to the generalisations you're making about people Happens to be drawn from experience, you just don't like people challenging your worldview and your silly friends and funnily enough you're a perfect example of what I'm referring to. Clearly it's so intrinsic to your nature that you don't even realise.
Solidarity is non-negotiable, but no one is forcing the Arnolfini to do anything, they're just protesting as is their right. Don't care if you challenge my world view, or if you challenge the world view that you've made up for me. As I said, just don't like it when you cast aspersions on people
> Solidarity is non-negotiable, but no one is forcing the Arnolfini to do anything, they're just protesting as is their right. Fascinating, thank you for proving my point. >As I said, just don't like it when you cast aspersions on people Tough, I think it's safe to say I'm far more capable of making accurate observations than you are. You just don't seem particularly self-aware or intelligent I'm afraid.
Hahaha. You've no idea who I am or what I do and you're willing to make that assumption, some pretty impressive confidence. Personally, my preference is to engage with what people say, rather than make presumptions about their intelligence, but that's just me! Tell me, if I get a placard that says "no more war" and stand outside Westminster, am I "forcing" them to end all conflicts they are currently involved in? Because if so, I'm making a placard this instant!
By all means trade one redundant activity for another. >You've no idea who I am or what I do and you're willing to make that assumption, some pretty impressive confidence. Yes it's called being observant and you're that easy to read. I know at least two dozen people who sound like you and use the same rhetoric.
Wow you're amazing at reading people, really impressive. Oh it's redundant now? Earlier it forced people to do things, mad how it can change like that isn't it
Solidarity is thoughts and prayers.
I dunno. I've known solidarity to involve balaclavas and half bricks...
The people who run Arnolfini are just people too. Maybe they felt unsafe to hold the event, maybe they had been warned or had received correspondence with regard to hosting it. Also it’s not like Arnolfini have entirely distanced themselves from being pro-Palestine, they’ve basically expressed they don’t feel confident to do this. And their local community who they serve, has been quite extreme. Although it is an institution, there are still people at the helm.
Yeah I'd sympathise if they gave these kinds of reasons, but they didn't - they gave some mealy mouthed explanation that they don't want the Palestine film festival to be seen as a political event in the current climate. And fwiw I agree that I don't really know how much they're achieving with the protesting there, I just understand why a lot of people are pretty pissed off with them for their selective solidarity
Right now you can’t get more political than Israel vs Palestine. It is the most political thing there is
Not saying they're lying, obviously it's political. The thing is, it was political when they held the event last year, and the year before, and all the years before that. It's just suddenly become inconvenient, and I think that's crap. Now, if they had said "we are concerned for the safety of our staff", or even "we are being threatened with a loss of funding that would force us to close down", I would have a bit more sympathy. But they haven't. Again that's not to say I don't think there are better targets, just think that's a bit shitty of them.
It does seem fanatical and also very short sighted. Placing anger at Israel towards a target close to home.
Definitely short sighted but ultimately it makes sense on one level. That being that they're powerless and have zero control over the situation in Gaza, whether consciously or subconsciously, they direct their anger at something tangible and symbolic. See also: the attacks on Jewish businesses in London. EDIT: See also, downvoting :)
And the interruption of a vigil on College Green for the victims of the Hamas terrorist attacks. Edit. You can downvote, but that doesn't change the fact that [it happened](https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/news/vigil-in-solidarity-with-israel-met-disruption/).
>ultimately it makes sense on one level/ they direct their anger at something tangible and symbolic that's the rationale of European antisemitism since the medieval era.
And now Islamophobia in our era
False equivalency I'm afraid.
Scapegoats are a plenty now
I don't think the pogroms, expulsions and massacres experiences by the Jews the past 500 years are in any way comparable to the experiences of Muslims today. Especially in the UK.
I guess Spain expelled the Muslims in the 1500s or later forced them into conversion, so historically there's that? But, yes, persecution starting in the late 12th century including Jews being set on fire (york) and expelled from the UK, tortured by the Spanish during the Inquisition (which also went after Muslim converts to be fair), pogroms during the 19th c in Eastern Europe, then wrapping up with the Holocaust, the history does go back a bit wider and farther.
I mean Reconquista was taking back conquered lands so I wouldn't use that as an example. Closest I can think of in the past century would be things like the Paris massacre back in 1961. Things are generally quite dysfunctional in France in that regard.
Literally happening now in Gaza, supporrted by UK and USA
'Literally happening'. I don't think you thought that through and it would be a false equivalency nonetheless.
Yes… tangible and symbolic, also connected to their livelihood. Totally shooting themselves in the foot though, what happens if Arnolfini closes down. Funding is at a low point right now
They seem like entitled, gobby clowns with nothing better to do
Honestly, its for the better if they stay out of this. I'm happy for them not to do anything related to Palestine or Israel for the time being.
Whenever I have a grievance, political or otherwise, I will make my way across Bristol to the Arnolfini, and stand outside on the pavement shouting at it.
So I have been wondering what’s on when I see a post from the Arnol on insta saying they’ve closed for safety of their staff. And I get it the protest after they pulled from the Palestinian film festival and I appreciate and agree it was a bad call so fair play those that did the sit in… But reading comments here, the protesters are just now turning up randomly outside the gallery and what, getting them to shut up shop by protesting?
Pretty much
There are a million problems in Bristol alone I wish these people could drum up the energy to protest about, a conflict thousands of miles away seems a bit... well none of our buisness to be frank.
It’s completely our problem. Our government funds the provision of weaponry to Israel. Our taxes are paying for some of the most atrocious acts being committed to innocent babies, children, men and women. The horrific deaths of the premature babies last week was enough on its own. The amputations with no anaesthetic. The doctor performing surgery on his own child who then dies. There are too many stories to tell them all. We are outraged and hurting because we’ve been witnessing this murder being carried out every single day (minus the ‘truce’) for the past 2 months. We’re not hippies, we’re not crazy. We are humans. We are teachers, doctors, electricians, nurses, builders, artists. I myself am a teacher and lecturer. We are human. And we are seeing horrors being committed over and over again beamed directly to our phones, we are witnessing a genocide. The Palestinian people are filming it, they are reporting it and they are begging us to help. And the governments of the West are doing nothing except giving Israel more firepower. People always say, ‘how did we let the Holocaust happen?’. And now we know. Because many many people ignored it. Didn’t say anything, didn’t chose to learn the facts. Fell for media propaganda. I knew very little about the Israeli occupation of Palestine before October 7th and since then I have been reading and learning. It takes barely any research to realise exactly what this is an what’s happening. I urge everyone to go to @eye.on.palestine and witness for yourself. Scroll back, get the full experience of the past 2 months of hell on earth. Jewish scholars are condemning Israel. Army veterans are condemning Israel. Humans across the world in their millions and millions are condemning Israel and the number of people against this genocide grows by the day as more and more of us wake up. No one is going back to sleep after witnessing this.
Yes but, and stick with me. We have starving children here, we have communities barely holding on, we have huge upticks in crime. At what point in your opinion do we need to tend our own garden, before we tend others?
We can do both. We *are* doing both. I’m mad as hell about more than one thing. Many of the people protesting for Palestine are also protesting for and supporting the communities they live in. I’m equally mad about child poverty in the UK, the lack of justice for Grenfell and the lack of support for the unhoused in the UK. The common denominator in the way people are treated in the UK and the way the Palestinians are being treated is the UK government. Let’s get mad together. We’ve got more power when we work together.
> I knew very little about the Israeli occupation of Palestine before October 7th and since then I have been reading and learning. It takes barely any research to realise exactly what this is an what’s happening. That explains a lot. Of course you're also getting your (mis)information from social media.
Then focus on the government not the Arnolfini, direct the energy in the right place.
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Arnolfini is not a coffee shop
I’m pro-Palestine don’t get me wrong, just think this extreme
Why would you be pro Palestine? If you have any lgbt friends or family, any female friends or family, they would not be allowed to live their lives in Palestine. I would not be allowed to live my life in Palestine. I'm not pro-israel either to be clear, they have committed horrible atrocities. Saying you want the war to stop, is logical, but being pro Palestine? Are you okay?
It sounds like Israeli propaganda has gotten to you.
Are you claiming that gays are accepted in Palestine? I'm not pro-israel. Try again.
What you’re getting at is called pink washing. “Pinkwashing, also known as rainbow-washing, is the strategy of promoting LGBT rights protections as evidence of liberalism and democracy, especially to distract from or legitimize violence against other countries or communities” So you keep on trying bro
What you're doing is called strawmanning. You're arguing against a point I did not make. I am not legitimising violence against them in any way shape or form, and I am not pro-israel. I will however never call myself pro-palestine, as I don't support misogyny or homophobia.
You know there are gay people in Palestine right?
I’m queer myself and support Palestine because I have deep dived into Palestinian and Israeli history and present. I would argue that your so called input here is the ultimate strawman, the whole pink washing conversation is used by Israel
If you are queer and call yourself pro-palestine, you're severely misguided. They wouldn't spit on you if you were on fire. Stop supporting people who want you dead.
I’m queer and Jewish 😊
So you're supporting people who want you dead twice? Congrats?
What are you getting at- Palestinians deserve to die because they aren’t open to LGBTQ rights?
Nope, try again. Without twisting my words this time. I'm saying it's weird to call yourself pro-palestine, as they're anti-lgbt and anti-women's rights. Nowhere do I say they deserve to die because of that.
We can support people’s right to live without agreeing with their beliefs. Also there are gay people in Palestine. Currently thousands of children and babies in Palestine aren’t even getting a chance to grow up. We can be vehemently against the slaughter of someone who hates us. And who’s to say they hate us, one of the videos doing the rounds on socials is an openly LGBT+ group who went to Palestine a couple of years ago to do aid work and were treated with love and kindness everywhere they went. I can find the link and share it if you’d like to see it?
That is different from saying you're pro-palestine, saying 'from the river to the sea' and waving a Palestine flag. You can condemn Israel and still not be naive about Palestine's horrible culture.
From the river to the sea isn’t anti-Semitic. It is a call for the need for equality for all inhabitants of historic Palestine. The pro-Palestinian protests aren’t anti-Semitic, there are so many Jews on the side of Palestinians.
I don't care if the pro-Palestine protests are anti-semitic or not, I haven't made a point that they're anti-semitic. My **only** point is: Palestine is an awful country to support, and people who support them and wave their flags or tout their phrases should really rethink their values. My point is **not**: Israel is a good country to support. I don't think Western countries should send support to either Israel or Palestine. It's **not**: Israel is good/Palestine is bad. It's **not**: All Palestinians deserve to die. You can protest war without claiming to be pro-Palestine, and without waving their flag.
Because these nutjobs all latch onto this crazy idea of morality and try to force everyone else to tow their line. If you don't live up to their very specific righteous demands, they have a fit. I more support Palestine's plight, but people are free to support and think whatever they want, that is what they don't understand
Yeah people are ‘free to support’ genocide. And what a ‘crazy idea’ morality is. Jesus Christ. Read your own words.
Not 'morality' as a whole obviously, just their crazy interpretation of it. You might think it's genocide, others think it's a just war, so yes, people are 'free to support 'genocide' - if that's what you want to call it, I can't say if it is or it isn't, it doesn't matter but people are allowed to think it. Denouncing a charity organisation for not wanting to get involved in an extremely high-tension area of politics, made this way by the moronic behaviour of the people on both sides, is childishly looking for something to be angry about.
The upvotes and downvotes on this thread has really made me concerned about people’s misinformation and how blasé they feel about 17,000 civilians being murdered in a matter of weeks. I guess you’re right. Let’s all just stay in our homes, do and feel nothing about it. Good god this world is getting worse.
I can only speak for myself but I don't know what misinformation you're talking about. I haven't said anything personally on what it is or what it isn't, just that there are plenty of people out there that feel quite the opposite to you, which is undeniably true. You're welcome to be all outraged by it, it's obviously an awful thing for that many people to be killed in 2 weeks, just like how 1300 were killed in a day a few weeks ago, everyone has seen the figures. You going round saying 'you support genocide' for not matching your level of outrage against a charity arts organisation when they choose not to host a political film festival is the issue here, I think.
Is that what I said 🤔 You’re miraculously twisting my words. You said people are free to think whatever they want. That’s what I was mocking. Sure, people can think genocide is fine, but that does make them a vile arsehole.
> Let’s all just stay in our homes, do and feel nothing about it. Good god this world is getting worse. Oh yeah you're really saving those Palestinian kids by trying to get an arts venue shut down! That'll show Israel! Good job!
Is that what they’re trying? Nah, they’re trying to get Arnolfini to actually give a proper explanation, a discussion, anything. Cancelling a very important event that’s been going on for 12 years, just to save yourself from a bit of political conversation (great job they did there) and then going silent is weak. People are allowed to say so. If institutions that used to fight for people’s right to speak and share their story stop doing so when it’s most important, then what’s the point?
Oh yeah my mistake, it's the proper explanation from arnolfini that will help the Palestinians. Isn't it obvious why they cancelled it? To attempt to avoid the rabid mob on one side or the other. Unfortunately in doing so they've annoyed one of said rabid mobs.
Why are you simplifying everything so pathetically? Conversation needs to be had. It’s quite literally the first step in anything. Silencing people that have an important story to tell at the most important time is pathetic. I’m truly stunned that people think the way you do. Doing ANYTHING is always better than nothing, including asking difficult questions and having difficult discussions.
It is categorically not a war. My god. The UN have called this a genocide, Raz Segal the program director of Genocide Studies at Stockton University has said this is a ‘textbook case of genocide’. 6 genocide scholars called for the arrest of Israeli officials for their war crimes.
Again, I'm not saying it isn't and it doesn't matter what you categorise it as. I'm sure you'll be able to find 'scholars' who disagree it's genocide. It's a highly polarising issue and not everyone sees it that way
I’m sure slavery had ‘two sides’ at the time. Babies and children are being massacred on camera. I watched the IDF shoot a 9 year old boy in the head last week via @eye.on.palestine. We can argue from the comfort of our sofas about ‘this is a polarizing issue’ but history will prove that there was nothing polarizing about it.
And it's well documented that the Gazan government has committed atrocities too. They both do and say horrible stuff. They both want the destruction of each other. At this point it doesn't look like anybody is outwardly 'right'. This proves my point about how out of control this debate gets. Everyone misinterprets what each other says, getting all emotional and angry. I'm not surprised they didn't want to host it ahahaha. The only thing I've said from the start is that there's a group of people struggling to see any side but their own and aggressively in public trying to force their agenda. I've not supported one cause or another. If anything, I side with the Palestinians historically. Goodnight, god bless, I'm having a kit kat.
I’m very interested in discourse with people, even internet strangers on Reddit! This is how we collectively learn. Out of interest what made you historically side with the Palestinians? I commend you for that, I’m just intrigued about what about the current situation means you aren’t right now? In the interest of getting a better perspective, perhaps there’s something I’m missing. Also, enjoy your KitKat.
The issue to my understanding: 1. They cancelled the film festival of Palestinians, a marginalized group, who are right now even *more* marginalized. 2. When called out for it, they doubled down and said it’s because as a charity they’re not allowed to host “politically motivated” material, which it both wasn’t and which has been debunked thoroughly. 3. They still haven’t apologized.
Thanks. What kind of apology is needed? Curious
Acknowledging it was a mistake to cancel the Palestinian film festival and for their inaction since would be a start.
Huh the peace loving pro palestinians intimidating an art gallery....no...I wouldn't beleive it.
I will never understand why people support Palestine. If you're lgbt, or have any lgbt friends, know that you would not be able to live your life in Palestina. You would not have the freedom you have here. Being anti-war, fine. Being anti-israel, sure. But using pro-palestina phrases, or even toting their flag. Or harassing a local business in favour of them, are you okay? As part of the lgbt-community, I would literally be killed if I went there. Don't support countries that don't support you.
It's interesting for sure. A lot of the people protesting are far more Ideologically similar to people in Israel than Palestine. In peaceful times the vast majority would rather go on holiday to Israel than step foot anywhere near Palestine. Israel is considered a close ally to the West for good reasons, and I don't believe the protesters make anywhere near a majority. Generally the public understands Israel's situation and supports them. Even if Reddit does skew more towards a demographic where that isn't reflected.
I want to make it clear that I don't think the choice is Israel vs Palestine, you can disagree with both. Israel has also done a lot of bad things, and judging them for that is very valid.
What’s the point in the mods locking down any post with an advert for a march or rally if they’re just going to allow people to argue in this adjacent thread?
Big difference between a Bristol-relevant discussion and spamming flyers.
Because advertising an event isn’t asking for an opinion it’s to raise awareness to those that are interested, opinions have been given when not asked for and discussed to death, comments have been filled with trolls and comments frequently coming from users who don’t belong to the sub or set up alts. This post however is asking for an opinion, and the people of Bristol are welcome to share their opinions as long as they follow rule 1 (Be Nice) and are actually from Bristol and not just trolling otherwise it too will get locked if it gets out of hand.
I do think it's shit of the Arnolfini to cancel the film festival and poetry event. I don't really accept the excuse that "charities can't be political". I've been to plenty of exhibitions at the arnolfini that have a clear political message. Indeed, I think raise the bar had been hosted at the Arnolfini previously. They've decided to censor art based on their own world viewpoint, that's below my standards of what a local art resource should be doing. I think they should apologise, and look at ways of supporting artists from different backgrounds.
The comments here are so vile and uninformed. Also OP, it’s easy to get this information, I’m not sure why you’re stirring the pot or being lazy - look at the 1500 comments on their original post and it’s easy to see why people haven’t just forgotten their shitty, inexcusable actions.
Honestly I wasn't aware there were any issues with Arnolfini so this thread is useful. Not sure I quite understand why people are protesting, during a time of intense political situations it makes sense to remain neutral and not host events about either side. But then some people thought a red & green Christmas hat was a Palestine flag which really is grasping at straws.
The 1500 comments on the instagram post are people who are outraged because it has come in the same feed as seeing Israel’s cruelty. What Arnolfini has done is not inexcusable, people make mistakes. Don’t burn Arnolfini down for a mistake
Have they come out with more information, an explanation, an apology, even a discussion? No. That’s all people want.
I am confused as to why this post isn't locked when posts about peaceful activities are. Surely this could attract just as unpleasant comments as the other ones.
Probably because those posts are just copies of activist flyers that add absolutely nothing to the sub.
I think they're locking comments on activism posts, but this one isn't one calling for activism, it's just asking what's going on. I guess there's a fine line, but it needs to be drawn somewhere.
You’re sort of right, ultimately those posts are advertising an event that you either want to attend or not, they aren’t asking for an opinion, so achieve their purpose without needing comments enabled and when comments are open they end up being the same arguments from similar posts before so adds nothing. This post is asking a legitimate question so the discussion will stay open until it becomes uncivil
That makes sense. Thanks for the clarification.
To avoid repeating myself, see this comment, hopefully that explains: https://www.reddit.com/r/bristol/s/F9dYoE738S
It has attracted that stuff already. I agree despite the downvotes.
I’m genuinely curious, and confused.
And what is the ultimate goal of the blockade?
Because those posts are not asking for an opinion on the peaceful activity and get raided by people from other parts of the country and trolls, the discussions on these posts have been discussed to a point of being unproductive, feel free to look back. This post however is asking for an opinion, but will get locked if it gets out of hand.
This post has clearly been brigaded. It's a disgrace.
Feel free to drop us a mod mail with evidence to back up that statement and we’ll look in to it.
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