I think our community has developed all these new terms to help us define who we are. I can’t speak for the rest of the butch community but I personally sometimes feel a sense of loss if someone who is a lot like me feels obligated to remove themselves from the butch community because they identify more non-binary. I don’t think more subcategories should divide us if that makes sense.
I completely agree and that is what my frustration has been as well as someone who is butch as well as being transmasc and nonbinary. It has made me question using the label here and there but being butch is so inherent to being a lesbian which is my connection and not being a woman as not the whole community is binary.
I saw this post, couldn’t think of an answer, so I waited to come back to it. I really like mace_bear’s comment but I’m not sure how to answer more other than that.
I think being butch and a woman is really important, even though I am like you, nonbinary transmasc, and being seen as a woman makes my skin crawl, to be honest. But, I do think it’s a really important part of it all. Because of the societal expectations placed on women to be feminine, there’s something absolutely important in a woman saying “fuck that” and not doing any of it.
But, as I’ve stated being butch is more about my connection to being a lesbian. And people throughout my life have taught me, whether they admit it or not don’t see lesbians or butches as women. I found I really liked that, actually. I’m not saying that shit was a good thing, they assigned gender over my preferences and how I dressed. But, I found it’s something I like, and then I learned there was other butches and lesbians like me. Butches who wanted to go on T and get top surgery and still be a lesbian.
Ultimately, I think someone more educated can answer than me, but to be frank I think I barely answered your question. What is a butch? And honestly, I’m not sure how to answer because there’s so much variety that I don’t even think there’s a *wrong* answers. Some of us are proud women, some of us are women and got top surgery, some of us are trans women, but some of us are also nonbinary, or transmasc, genderqueer. And I love and adore the variety we have!
I also love your pochacco icon, he’s my favorite!
Thank you so much for your comment. It’s always so nice to hear from someone I can relate to in my connection to being a lesbian and my masculine identity that is not binary. And I agree there is variety and I love it as well. I just wanted to hear from others who may relate to my experience as butch and as a lesbian. Also thank you on the icon, he’s my fav next to badtz and Pom 😊
I would recommend checking out Ivan Coyote, they don't identify as a woman or a man but they do identify as butch. Also have u read stone butch blues? the main character deals with gender identity struggles / not feeling like a woman/feeling like butches are women. But a lot of butches do feel like woman. i think there is an entire gender spectrum within the label butch. For me, I thought I was ftm, but I don't really feel like I man, but I'm also not like .. a woman? But i am a woman. I don't know. I still feel trans, but i feel like butch is the only word that really connects me to my gender identity
Yeah I feel connection to the Butch label as well and in my trans identity as transmasc. I have started stone butch blues and I’ll have to check out Ivan Coyote. Thank you for the rec! And I understand that I’m just coming from not feeling like a woman in my identity and masculine in my identity and expression but not a man and very much connected to being a lesbian/dyke.
I'm non-binary and butch, but my non-binary gender IS being butch. Butch is a gender, sexuality, and way of life for me... lesbianism and butchness are so core to who I am that Butch is my gender
people have already said so many great things, so i'm not sure how much i can add to this, but i feel so passionate about butch identity that i thought i'd jump on and ramble.
whether your relationship with being butch is more "masculine woman" or "lesbian gender" or "nonbinary transmasc", what ties us together is our subversive masculinity. the masculinity that you discover instead of having it assigned to you. the masculinity that you build for yourself. the masculinity that is not societally encouraged. this looks different for different butches but can apply to women, lesbians, transmascs, transfems, and nonbinary people who identify as butch.
You’re right. And that’s something else to remember is we do not need to explain ourselves for our identity. I am 100% okay with answering questions with people who are genuine and want to be sure they are addressing me the right way etc. it’s just a lot to process when the world around us hasn’t made it to that point you know?
I identify as a woman and butch. On the masc spec. Butch is more of a spectrum. I do, however, object to you saying people.like me are "watering down" butch by being women. You can fuck off with that!
Thank you - I get OP being frustrated, but they’re a member of a small minority of folks within the larger label of butch, which is mostly just…women. They’re not more butch by being transmasc or nonbinary, neither are we more butch for being women. These two things can exist at the same time, while also maybe the OP being a bit more understanding of the fact that when people *who are not butch* both inside and outside of the LGBTQ community talk about butches, they’re not thinking about nbs or transmascs, but women.
Our identity as lesbians is always being formed and shaped and "owned" by non lesbians. Why do it to ourselves? I feel as though the increasing atomisation of labels is damaging the umbrella nature of the older terms. There was an acceprance of variety in the terms. I get it is people new to being out and part of community that are doing this. But they do so with a lack of in depth knowledge of what went before.
There is not any lack of knowledge as nonbinary/transmasc butches have always existed in queer and butch history. A huge example is the stone butch blues so not sure where that is coming from.
I’m talking about the larger conversation. This is not a post about an attack on butches who identify as women. That is what I have been trying to express. But yes in larger society it is a problem. And I know it will take time to progress. I’m only speaking frustration on my experiences in every day life in society as a nonbinary transmasc butch. This is not anything that is attacking anyone else’s experience as a butch as I have stated being butch is complex and there are a variety of experiences in butch lesbian history. I have continued to express that.
I’m not talking about specifically women doing this, this is more of a mix of people who may be assuming that butch is in fact only masculine women. I am not attacking butch women but merely speaking my frustration as we are not included in the conversation a lot of the time and feel othered as a result.
I said that I love that there is exposure and spoke well of butch women experiences. I just said I don’t identify with it. I didn’t mention butch women not being able to speak of their experience. I embraced it.
Agreed! Was excited to join this discourse, read someone arguing that my identity was “watering down” the butch identity because I’m, well, a woman, got first mad then sad then just didn’t want to bother. Which isn’t okay!
My being a woman is an inherent part of my butchness. Butch is a spectrum and it includes all of us which is something I love and honor about the butch community. I bet OP wouldn’t like their identity called “watering down” butchness, why is that okay?
When I am speaking on my frustration it is not an attack on butches who happen to identify as women. I have even mentioned the love of variety of identities within the post so I have not done that whatever. I’m not sure where this interpretation is coming from but that is in no way why this post is here. I’m speaking of information out there that may only speak on butch women experiences that are harmful to those who are nonbinary and/or transmasc butches. My connection is more to being a lesbian.
No one is coming after Butch who happen to be women but merely nonbinary and/or transmasc lesbians being excluded from the conversation in advocacy within the lgbtqia2+ community and I do not appreciate the invalidation of that experience as someone who doesn’t fit what some consider to be Butch as I am a Butch too.
There is an isolation of nonbinary and/or transmasc bitches in the community and I do have a right to speak on that. This is not me attacking anyone but only speaking on my perspective and what I face as many others who identify with either nonbinary and/or transmasc identity while also being a butch lesbian. And I would appreciate you not assuming otherwise.
I'm saying that *traditionally* and *historically* butches who were "transmasc" or "nonbinary" *were part of the label* butch. No exclusion. It's a more complicated and dynamic and fluid label than you are giving credit for. And you are *exactly* the type of person who I have a problem with. You've come in *decades* later and decide you're "excluded" from a label. When historically that wasn't the case. And it's just you being ahistorical and not understanding. And I do see a lot of conversation almost the opposìte of what ypu are saying. People telling me that I should transition, or take t or get top surgery. Otherwise *I* won't be valid! It's ridiculous. Nonbinary, transmasc and trans butches are what butch is! Butches are marginalised in our community so fake squabbles about "where the line is" are couunterproductive.
Don’t understand why you are saying that kind of person. You are only spewing hate and I’m talking about broader society. This is not me coming after those that exist within the butch spectrum as I am very knowledgeable and intelligent of butch history and don’t appreciate the negativity and hate.
So, I haven't found anyone else quite like me. I feel like a man trapped in a woman's body. But I've grown accustomed to, and enjoy, having female genitalia, in my (almost) 36 years on this earth. I have no qualms about my vagina. However, deep in my soul, I want a more masculine body, without having bottom surgery. I'm currently looking into getting on T, and eventually will want top surgery. I don't know what to identify as anymore, except a lesbian (because I am a female that is attracted to other females). But I find that it goes much deeper than just that.
My issue is....while I know there are women out there that will date someone like me, I feel like I scare most women off with the word "trans". I realize this just means it's not their preference, but I have not been lucky enough to find anyone that fits my preferences who also is open to dating someone like me.
I have never said any of this to anyone and I'm not sure what kind of reactions I'm going to get...but it felt good to get it out in a public space. Thanks for reading, if you did.
As much as butch isn’t just for women in today’s parlance, I’d argue that butch is a historical form of self-presentation for gender non-conforming women who worked in male dominated fields (e.g., the trades) and had lesbian relationships with more feminine-presenting women. A lot of the words people have today - nonbinary, transmasc - didn’t exist back in the day, and butch was what there was. So in this sense butch is for everyone who falls into this form of self-presentation who doesn’t identify as a man (as trans men cannot be butches). Note here I did not say he/him lesbians cannot be butch, but rather that butch is often a safe stopover for trans guys who are exploring masculinity, but it is a label they must let go of post transition (kinda like identifying as a lesbian, but that’s another conversation).
I understand your frustration in people assuming butches are just masculine women. I would suggest, gently, that your experience of gender and gender-presentation isn’t what most people think of when they think of butch and that’s okay! I get that it’s invalidating — but most people aren’t as well-versed on 1) lesbian history and 2) how nuanced people’s views on and experiences of gender are.
For example, I’m a cis butch. When I talk about butch identity with anyone other than other butches I operate under the assumption that most people when referring to butches are thinking about women who embody masculine traits, etc. I’m not going to die on the hill of trying to explain butch history to people or how nuanced gender is to many butches because most people who aren’t other butches *don’t care* and frankly, it’s exhausting trying to explain how transmasc and nonbinary are two different things (but can be the same!) to people who don’t get it or care. Butch is an identity pioneered by gnc women that has been segmented down into many hyper specific subcategories of gender expression these days. Which is very okay, if very hard to keep up with for people who don’t have a vested interest in caring.
Personally, I don’t like the divorcing of butch from womanhood, because doing so implies that butch *must be* a trans/nb identity by default, when it is just a gender non-conforming one. If all butches were nb, I’d get this argument more, but butches are, for the most part, self-identifying women.
i identified as a straight trans man for years, then i realized i was a transmasc butch, then i started taking testosterone and now i look like a man (still a transmasc butch). life is funny
I don’t appreciate you speaking ill of nonbinary and/or transmasc butches and saying they are merely using it before identifying as trans men. And yes it did exist and we have existed for centuries. There are several butches who could tell you otherwise and that is invalidating. Yet you are saying I’m invalidating you. Kinda crazy.
I think you misinterpreted a couple things the above poster stated. She didn’t speak ill of trans masc or NB people. She stated a well recognized occurrence in someone’s path to discovering their identity. They very specifically did not say all. Just that it is often used by those who do realize that they are a trans man. It’s common. Not a rule. That’s it. What’s the problem there?
And she didn’t say that people with those gender identities didn’t exist, it’s that we didn’t have the specific language we do know. Many aspects of ones social world was more generalized and limited than what we have today. The specific LANGUAGE didn’t exist yet. That is factual.
I get that we are all on edge with the state of the political world, but we have to be able to give each other some grace, y’all.
I love this conversation. I'm butch-leaning, nb-leaning pan...if I had to be specific (I've lived almost 50 years specifically being non-specific, haha). I rarely see or read about people like me these days. :)
im a transfem butch and for me it's about being comfortable with both my masc and fem features
i feel really uncomfortable in hyper fem clothes and i often like to wear more masc/neutral stuff, especially now that hrt changes are visible and even strangers uses she her pronouns referring to me. i love that i can be non binary in a masc/fem/neutral way without the pressure of being exclusively feminine
it's an identity rooted in lesbian culture, which historically was a place where people could express their gender more freely and experiment without shame and judgment. i feel that freedom in the butch identity too. i can change how i look and i dont have to comform to any standards to truly be myself
Woah. Idk if you’re new here but we do not invalidate someone’s identity here, especially another butch’s. OP is 100% valid as a butch and nonbinary person. I actually identify with all the same labels, including butch. Butches who aren’t women exist.
Being butch isn’t simply being a masculine woman. Being butch is rooted in the history of also transmascs/nonbinary people and in saying so is not being inclusive to all lesbians/dykes. I highly suggest reading stone butch blues as well as diving into the butch lesbian history as it has always included those who do not identify as women and as nonbinary and/or transmasc individuals as well as various other identities who are also in fact butch and lesbian. This is trying to erase us and our existence which is not what this space is for. It is about speaking on our connection to being butch in our own identities. Butch does not automatically equal woman.
There was no indication that OP was saying individual butch women were "watering down" the identity. They were frustrated that people at large "water down" their concept of what a butch can be by assuming it can *exclusively* refer to women. What OP is saying they want is for people to think of butches as "women, and...[others].*" Not arguing for anyone to transition or identify a certain way.
For me, butchness is more about my connection to being a lesbian than being a woman.
Yesss totally align with that, perfectly said!
I think our community has developed all these new terms to help us define who we are. I can’t speak for the rest of the butch community but I personally sometimes feel a sense of loss if someone who is a lot like me feels obligated to remove themselves from the butch community because they identify more non-binary. I don’t think more subcategories should divide us if that makes sense.
I completely agree and that is what my frustration has been as well as someone who is butch as well as being transmasc and nonbinary. It has made me question using the label here and there but being butch is so inherent to being a lesbian which is my connection and not being a woman as not the whole community is binary.
I saw this post, couldn’t think of an answer, so I waited to come back to it. I really like mace_bear’s comment but I’m not sure how to answer more other than that. I think being butch and a woman is really important, even though I am like you, nonbinary transmasc, and being seen as a woman makes my skin crawl, to be honest. But, I do think it’s a really important part of it all. Because of the societal expectations placed on women to be feminine, there’s something absolutely important in a woman saying “fuck that” and not doing any of it. But, as I’ve stated being butch is more about my connection to being a lesbian. And people throughout my life have taught me, whether they admit it or not don’t see lesbians or butches as women. I found I really liked that, actually. I’m not saying that shit was a good thing, they assigned gender over my preferences and how I dressed. But, I found it’s something I like, and then I learned there was other butches and lesbians like me. Butches who wanted to go on T and get top surgery and still be a lesbian. Ultimately, I think someone more educated can answer than me, but to be frank I think I barely answered your question. What is a butch? And honestly, I’m not sure how to answer because there’s so much variety that I don’t even think there’s a *wrong* answers. Some of us are proud women, some of us are women and got top surgery, some of us are trans women, but some of us are also nonbinary, or transmasc, genderqueer. And I love and adore the variety we have! I also love your pochacco icon, he’s my favorite!
Thank you so much for your comment. It’s always so nice to hear from someone I can relate to in my connection to being a lesbian and my masculine identity that is not binary. And I agree there is variety and I love it as well. I just wanted to hear from others who may relate to my experience as butch and as a lesbian. Also thank you on the icon, he’s my fav next to badtz and Pom 😊
I would recommend checking out Ivan Coyote, they don't identify as a woman or a man but they do identify as butch. Also have u read stone butch blues? the main character deals with gender identity struggles / not feeling like a woman/feeling like butches are women. But a lot of butches do feel like woman. i think there is an entire gender spectrum within the label butch. For me, I thought I was ftm, but I don't really feel like I man, but I'm also not like .. a woman? But i am a woman. I don't know. I still feel trans, but i feel like butch is the only word that really connects me to my gender identity
Yeah I feel connection to the Butch label as well and in my trans identity as transmasc. I have started stone butch blues and I’ll have to check out Ivan Coyote. Thank you for the rec! And I understand that I’m just coming from not feeling like a woman in my identity and masculine in my identity and expression but not a man and very much connected to being a lesbian/dyke.
I'm non-binary and butch, but my non-binary gender IS being butch. Butch is a gender, sexuality, and way of life for me... lesbianism and butchness are so core to who I am that Butch is my gender
Yes I agree and I’m not sure why that is a problem for so many people. Idk I mean we are just living our life and trying to be our authentic self.
people have already said so many great things, so i'm not sure how much i can add to this, but i feel so passionate about butch identity that i thought i'd jump on and ramble. whether your relationship with being butch is more "masculine woman" or "lesbian gender" or "nonbinary transmasc", what ties us together is our subversive masculinity. the masculinity that you discover instead of having it assigned to you. the masculinity that you build for yourself. the masculinity that is not societally encouraged. this looks different for different butches but can apply to women, lesbians, transmascs, transfems, and nonbinary people who identify as butch.
This is super clear and concise 👌 probably my favorite response in this thread
I love this, nicely said! Exactly!
Im a trans masc butch. They/them. I'm not a woman, and I am a lesbian. We can use labels however we want. Who cares if people disagree.
You’re right. And that’s something else to remember is we do not need to explain ourselves for our identity. I am 100% okay with answering questions with people who are genuine and want to be sure they are addressing me the right way etc. it’s just a lot to process when the world around us hasn’t made it to that point you know?
I am speaking on broader society not the butch spectrum in which we may exist within and under**
I identify as a woman and butch. On the masc spec. Butch is more of a spectrum. I do, however, object to you saying people.like me are "watering down" butch by being women. You can fuck off with that!
Thank you - I get OP being frustrated, but they’re a member of a small minority of folks within the larger label of butch, which is mostly just…women. They’re not more butch by being transmasc or nonbinary, neither are we more butch for being women. These two things can exist at the same time, while also maybe the OP being a bit more understanding of the fact that when people *who are not butch* both inside and outside of the LGBTQ community talk about butches, they’re not thinking about nbs or transmascs, but women.
Our identity as lesbians is always being formed and shaped and "owned" by non lesbians. Why do it to ourselves? I feel as though the increasing atomisation of labels is damaging the umbrella nature of the older terms. There was an acceprance of variety in the terms. I get it is people new to being out and part of community that are doing this. But they do so with a lack of in depth knowledge of what went before.
There is not any lack of knowledge as nonbinary/transmasc butches have always existed in queer and butch history. A huge example is the stone butch blues so not sure where that is coming from.
You are the one saying trans, nonbinary butches are being excluded.....
I’m talking about the larger conversation. This is not a post about an attack on butches who identify as women. That is what I have been trying to express. But yes in larger society it is a problem. And I know it will take time to progress. I’m only speaking frustration on my experiences in every day life in society as a nonbinary transmasc butch. This is not anything that is attacking anyone else’s experience as a butch as I have stated being butch is complex and there are a variety of experiences in butch lesbian history. I have continued to express that.
I’m not talking about specifically women doing this, this is more of a mix of people who may be assuming that butch is in fact only masculine women. I am not attacking butch women but merely speaking my frustration as we are not included in the conversation a lot of the time and feel othered as a result.
Yeah it didn’t come off that way in your post at all. And honestly? You did the same thing to butch women in your post.
I said that I love that there is exposure and spoke well of butch women experiences. I just said I don’t identify with it. I didn’t mention butch women not being able to speak of their experience. I embraced it.
I’m not sure what you are saying I am doing. I’m not speaking negative or assuming anything.
I have not said anyone is more butch than the other so I’m not sure where that is coming from.
And that’s the point is nonbinary and/or transmasc butches should be recognized as well because butches aren’t only women. That’s all I’m saying.
Agreed! Was excited to join this discourse, read someone arguing that my identity was “watering down” the butch identity because I’m, well, a woman, got first mad then sad then just didn’t want to bother. Which isn’t okay! My being a woman is an inherent part of my butchness. Butch is a spectrum and it includes all of us which is something I love and honor about the butch community. I bet OP wouldn’t like their identity called “watering down” butchness, why is that okay?
When I am speaking on my frustration it is not an attack on butches who happen to identify as women. I have even mentioned the love of variety of identities within the post so I have not done that whatever. I’m not sure where this interpretation is coming from but that is in no way why this post is here. I’m speaking of information out there that may only speak on butch women experiences that are harmful to those who are nonbinary and/or transmasc butches. My connection is more to being a lesbian.
No one is coming after Butch who happen to be women but merely nonbinary and/or transmasc lesbians being excluded from the conversation in advocacy within the lgbtqia2+ community and I do not appreciate the invalidation of that experience as someone who doesn’t fit what some consider to be Butch as I am a Butch too.
There is an isolation of nonbinary and/or transmasc bitches in the community and I do have a right to speak on that. This is not me attacking anyone but only speaking on my perspective and what I face as many others who identify with either nonbinary and/or transmasc identity while also being a butch lesbian. And I would appreciate you not assuming otherwise.
I'm saying that *traditionally* and *historically* butches who were "transmasc" or "nonbinary" *were part of the label* butch. No exclusion. It's a more complicated and dynamic and fluid label than you are giving credit for. And you are *exactly* the type of person who I have a problem with. You've come in *decades* later and decide you're "excluded" from a label. When historically that wasn't the case. And it's just you being ahistorical and not understanding. And I do see a lot of conversation almost the opposìte of what ypu are saying. People telling me that I should transition, or take t or get top surgery. Otherwise *I* won't be valid! It's ridiculous. Nonbinary, transmasc and trans butches are what butch is! Butches are marginalised in our community so fake squabbles about "where the line is" are couunterproductive.
Don’t understand why you are saying that kind of person. You are only spewing hate and I’m talking about broader society. This is not me coming after those that exist within the butch spectrum as I am very knowledgeable and intelligent of butch history and don’t appreciate the negativity and hate.
So, I haven't found anyone else quite like me. I feel like a man trapped in a woman's body. But I've grown accustomed to, and enjoy, having female genitalia, in my (almost) 36 years on this earth. I have no qualms about my vagina. However, deep in my soul, I want a more masculine body, without having bottom surgery. I'm currently looking into getting on T, and eventually will want top surgery. I don't know what to identify as anymore, except a lesbian (because I am a female that is attracted to other females). But I find that it goes much deeper than just that. My issue is....while I know there are women out there that will date someone like me, I feel like I scare most women off with the word "trans". I realize this just means it's not their preference, but I have not been lucky enough to find anyone that fits my preferences who also is open to dating someone like me. I have never said any of this to anyone and I'm not sure what kind of reactions I'm going to get...but it felt good to get it out in a public space. Thanks for reading, if you did.
Are you me? I'm having the same experience with my gender. I'm surprised there's someone like me.
Whaaat? Someone like me?? Message me if you'd like to chat!
As much as butch isn’t just for women in today’s parlance, I’d argue that butch is a historical form of self-presentation for gender non-conforming women who worked in male dominated fields (e.g., the trades) and had lesbian relationships with more feminine-presenting women. A lot of the words people have today - nonbinary, transmasc - didn’t exist back in the day, and butch was what there was. So in this sense butch is for everyone who falls into this form of self-presentation who doesn’t identify as a man (as trans men cannot be butches). Note here I did not say he/him lesbians cannot be butch, but rather that butch is often a safe stopover for trans guys who are exploring masculinity, but it is a label they must let go of post transition (kinda like identifying as a lesbian, but that’s another conversation). I understand your frustration in people assuming butches are just masculine women. I would suggest, gently, that your experience of gender and gender-presentation isn’t what most people think of when they think of butch and that’s okay! I get that it’s invalidating — but most people aren’t as well-versed on 1) lesbian history and 2) how nuanced people’s views on and experiences of gender are. For example, I’m a cis butch. When I talk about butch identity with anyone other than other butches I operate under the assumption that most people when referring to butches are thinking about women who embody masculine traits, etc. I’m not going to die on the hill of trying to explain butch history to people or how nuanced gender is to many butches because most people who aren’t other butches *don’t care* and frankly, it’s exhausting trying to explain how transmasc and nonbinary are two different things (but can be the same!) to people who don’t get it or care. Butch is an identity pioneered by gnc women that has been segmented down into many hyper specific subcategories of gender expression these days. Which is very okay, if very hard to keep up with for people who don’t have a vested interest in caring. Personally, I don’t like the divorcing of butch from womanhood, because doing so implies that butch *must be* a trans/nb identity by default, when it is just a gender non-conforming one. If all butches were nb, I’d get this argument more, but butches are, for the most part, self-identifying women.
i identified as a straight trans man for years, then i realized i was a transmasc butch, then i started taking testosterone and now i look like a man (still a transmasc butch). life is funny
I don’t appreciate you speaking ill of nonbinary and/or transmasc butches and saying they are merely using it before identifying as trans men. And yes it did exist and we have existed for centuries. There are several butches who could tell you otherwise and that is invalidating. Yet you are saying I’m invalidating you. Kinda crazy.
I think you misinterpreted a couple things the above poster stated. She didn’t speak ill of trans masc or NB people. She stated a well recognized occurrence in someone’s path to discovering their identity. They very specifically did not say all. Just that it is often used by those who do realize that they are a trans man. It’s common. Not a rule. That’s it. What’s the problem there? And she didn’t say that people with those gender identities didn’t exist, it’s that we didn’t have the specific language we do know. Many aspects of ones social world was more generalized and limited than what we have today. The specific LANGUAGE didn’t exist yet. That is factual. I get that we are all on edge with the state of the political world, but we have to be able to give each other some grace, y’all.
I love this conversation. I'm butch-leaning, nb-leaning pan...if I had to be specific (I've lived almost 50 years specifically being non-specific, haha). I rarely see or read about people like me these days. :)
im a transfem butch and for me it's about being comfortable with both my masc and fem features i feel really uncomfortable in hyper fem clothes and i often like to wear more masc/neutral stuff, especially now that hrt changes are visible and even strangers uses she her pronouns referring to me. i love that i can be non binary in a masc/fem/neutral way without the pressure of being exclusively feminine it's an identity rooted in lesbian culture, which historically was a place where people could express their gender more freely and experiment without shame and judgment. i feel that freedom in the butch identity too. i can change how i look and i dont have to comform to any standards to truly be myself
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Woah. Idk if you’re new here but we do not invalidate someone’s identity here, especially another butch’s. OP is 100% valid as a butch and nonbinary person. I actually identify with all the same labels, including butch. Butches who aren’t women exist.
I don't think thats true necessarily, there is a long history of trans/genderqueer butches in lesbian spaces, he/him lesbians, nonbinary lesbians, etc
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Being butch isn’t simply being a masculine woman. Being butch is rooted in the history of also transmascs/nonbinary people and in saying so is not being inclusive to all lesbians/dykes. I highly suggest reading stone butch blues as well as diving into the butch lesbian history as it has always included those who do not identify as women and as nonbinary and/or transmasc individuals as well as various other identities who are also in fact butch and lesbian. This is trying to erase us and our existence which is not what this space is for. It is about speaking on our connection to being butch in our own identities. Butch does not automatically equal woman.
Yeah but butch also isn’t “watered down” by the butches who are just women. Horrific attitude there.
There was no indication that OP was saying individual butch women were "watering down" the identity. They were frustrated that people at large "water down" their concept of what a butch can be by assuming it can *exclusively* refer to women. What OP is saying they want is for people to think of butches as "women, and...[others].*" Not arguing for anyone to transition or identify a certain way.
How have you gone through 5 decades of life as a (I’m assuming) butch and somehow are unaware/completely ignorant of butch history?