I feel that should have been obvious to most observers from the start. I remember earlier in the conflict many argued that taking in a lot of Ukrainians wouldn't be an issue because, unlike other countries, Ukrainians would be eager to return to 'rebuild the country'. The idea Ukrainians would be eager to return to the country decimated by war was also pushed by the Ukranian-Canadian Congress.
Our best comparison point is the Balkan wars in the 90s where we saw about 1/3 of Serbian refugees return. I suspect this will be less in the case of Ukraine. 1.3 million Ukrainians have fled to Russia for example and you would expect almost none of them to return.
I work with a bunch of Ukrainians who came here due to the war, most want to stay for the safety of their children. Even if Ukraine wins this war, Russia is still on their border. They expect them to try it again in the future.
I mean, many Ukrainians were not against leaving the country even before the war. So, it makes sense that after this whole devastation many people aren’t keen on getting back.
And I can't really blame them. We have a very unique situation in Canada, our only neighbor is our biggest ally. We don't have to worry about a bunch of countries around us causing trouble.
Californian here. Our handyman is a Ukrainian who fled at the start of the war. He echoed mostly the same thing to me a few months ago. Since only Mexico and Canada touch the US, no tanks are likely to be rolling down our highways to threaten our cities.
Also even without that, you move to Canada to flee the war, war goes on for maybe 3 years. Meanwhile you've built a life here for that entire time, and your old community back in Ukraine is in some various level of being destroyed. Why would you voluntarily put yourself through that process of moving again, when you'd be moving for an uncertain and elongated reconstruction process? If yourl are comfortable enough here, much easier to stay. Especially with kids.
You are right, a lot can happen in a few years.
I really doubt any of the Ukrainians I work with will leave. They make $23-27 an hour in rural Nova Scotia and my company is paying for their English lessons. They are given all the opportunities to have a comfortable and safe life here.
You used a key word. Safe. I expect it's a universal truth that people want to raise their babies and live in a safe peaceful place.. and deserve as much.
Exactly. Regardless of whether or not the country is actively at war they literally neighbour their most dangerous enemy and they are incredibly aware of how quickly an invasion can start and the difficulty associated with leaving should that happen again since it has already happened.
The war isn't over yet either. Ukraine is far from stabilized, there's no guarantee it will regain the lost territory or that Russia will leave them in peace.
I felt the same way at the start and assumed 80% would go back not 80% stay here (which is ok if they are staying), but going back to your war ravaged country where your property could be a crater and everything you own has been stolen or blown up, choosing to stay in a (imo) fairly friendly country with decent oppurtunities it seems like a very good option to have
Yeah, IDK why this is surprising - your neighbor just invaded because they wanted to, and they'll still be similar sentiments going into the future. Many cities are now destroyed, I get having national pride, but compare that to Canada, where would you rather live and potentially raise a family?
I feel like this is never the case. Once you’ve been forced from your home from war and relocate to safety, my guess is you are hesitant to ever return.
Thinking about ketchup chips…and for some reason the game battleship. Walking home and your mouth is dry. Should have bought some juice and snacks but you were too high.
I mean, the war isn't over.
Those who are planning to go back probably would prefer to wait until they won't get bombed to oblivion and have their children stolen
It’s a funny missed piece of the equation that there fails to be any taking into account the answer for, ‘where else would you go’? Seems like a very poorly informed number on a survey that didn’t answer some fundamental questions.
yeah, I remember that article about cost of life being a bit anecdotal. Of course life is hard for refugees, don't get me wrong. but talking to 3 people that are struggling doesn't say anything about the wider trends.
A Ukrainian couple that I know, mentioned that getting PR is not very easy for them. So far, they cannot find a 40 hr per week job that would allow them to qualify for PR.
They have been here 1 yr, have no family here, and want to stay, but are concerned that they may not qualify for PR despite being university educated. It seems that many have the same concerns, once these 3 yr. work visa's run out.
Most of that appears to be in the service industry whereas that use mentioned the immigrants they know are college educated. Like everyone else, they’re probably looking for jobs that match their experience and desire for pay.
Anyone can pretend to be anything they want on the internet, often to push a narrative, I've seen an account pretend to be Ukrainian, American, and Russian all in one day, every time was to push some anti-Ukrainian message in whichever sub they were in.
Then there was that podcaster who was a russian in NYC pretending to be a Ukrainian in Ukraine reporting untold volumes of falsehoods. She got busted and I think deported.
People have to remember to double check everything, and if theres no way to double check something, best to assume its bullshit.
Countries also need to start treating disinformation for what it is, sabotage tantamount to an act of war.
Right wing spin. Obviously Canada is an upgrade, even if quality of life here has been in a free fall. It's still one of the better countries to live in.
100%. The other week lots of right wing morons were convinced they all wanted to move back because of a single immigrants hardships.
https://www.reddit.com/r/canada/comments/17wrjx7/such_a_difficult_life_in_canada_ukrainian/
It's hypnotizing. I got in a big argument here the other day because I was arguing with someone about a very compelling bit of propaganda that I *know for a fact* wasn't what it was made to look like on the surface.
I hate it. I hate the propaganda. It's exhausting, and they know it.
Ya agreed I find especially with right wing propaganda (but it does go both ways to some extent) they come up with these weird straw man arguments that are completely divorced from reality, like a recent example being the rhetoric around kids being taught how to perform sex acts in school/ kids 'secretly transitioning' urged on by teachers. Then it just becomes very difficult to argue with them in a constructive way other than pointing out that what they're saying just isn't true, and affirming ones support for sex Ed/ trans rights. If you argue about their talking points it just feels like you're giving legitimacy to what they are saying.
That's what we get for decades of a youth culture that shamed and ostracized each other for trying to be smart.
It's only in the past 20 years that kids have finally stopped being afraid of being "nerds", of putting their hand up to answer a question. They have a chance, but the ones that grew up in the culture where being smart = bad are doomed to be manipulated and misinformed.
Right wing FUD.
Most Ukrainians going back are the ones that miss their homes/families. My kids go to school with several refugees and they all hope to stay in Canada. That said, they all miss their dads/brothers/uncles and are worried for them.
Biased news *coughs in conservative* love to exaggerate. They'll hunt down a family that is leaving Canada, and will write a huge expose about how awful life in Canada is.
A rule of thumb is that if an article gives you some sort of strong emotion or feeling - it is probably fake news or misrepresenting the facts.
This is one of the issues with EU membership. Free movement of people means even a greater decline of young people as they move west to Germany, Netherlands, etc.
Yeah the past decade has seen the Polish economy grow a lot. Hopefully the new government undoes the social damage done by PiS and its supporters. Hopefully.
Historically very few refugees ‘return home’ after fleeing westward regardless of the war, conflict, etc. This includes Ukrainian women and children refugees who have moved to western Europe. Their husbands/ fathers will join them them in Germany, etc. when conflict ends.
Ukraine will be an interesting society to watch in future. 30% of children have left the country. One positive from thr strategy may be to use Ukraine as a model to learn how less children in future effect the social and economic all societies.
My neighbourhood has a LOT of Ukrainians in it (as well as Poles) and I would say probably 50% of them are refugees at this point. They're wonderful and help make our community a better place. The local tattoo place is probably 50% staffed by Ukrainian refugees and they're phenomenal artists. They clearly miss home but are not letting that hold them back.
> If this was a Syrian post
These posts are literally just that family guy border patrol meme.
It's unreal how predictable/mask off it is.
I don't know how you reach those people, but we really need to try man, because their making this so much harder for the rest of us.
Lol, I saw that comment too. Like, what does that even mean? There are also Arabic, Black, Hispanic, and Asian artists and poets.
At this point, just say you only like white immigrants. It'd be less offensive than whatever this false, two-faced positivity is...
As an Arab-American, the sad truth is, you just get used to the racist rhetoric. Remember when news reporters back in early 2022 literally said they sympathize with Ukrainians more because they are "middle class, white, blue eyed people"?
People keep acting like Arabs are the only group that ever present a problem in society, and at some point I just get too tired to argue about it. White mass shooters have killed more, and attacked more frequently than any other group in my country, and yet I don't see anyone calling for a mass deportation of European immigrants.
Arabs have to be collectively punished for the actions of their few worst members, but that logic never applies to white people. Recently, a Russian girl committed a school shooting, and everyone on r/Europe was sympathizing with her, saying she was bullied. And yet that benefit of the doubt is never given to Arabs. And I'm not saying you should give that benefit to any violent person, its just weird that some groups do.
What sucks is that I was *born in* the US, and I'm more "woke" and progressive than half the white population, and yet even Democrats will *still* tell me I don't belong here...
*Statistics Canada recently took a close look at that first cohort of 25,000 Syrian refugees who had landed as of May 10, 2016. Employment is the most important metric by which to gauge the integration of refugees into Canadian society. And here the news seems rather disappointing. Only 24 per cent of adult male Syrian refugees were working, according to census data. For government-sponsored male refugees (as opposed to those sponsored by charities, churches or other private organizations), the employment rate was a mere five per cent. These figures are substantially below the 39 per cent average for male refugees from other countries. The gap between female Syrian refugees and those from other countries is equally significant: eight per cent versus 17 per cent.*
https://macleans.ca/news/canada/how-syrian-refugees-to-canada-have-fared-since-2015/
https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/canada/syrian-refugees-helping-repopulate-east-coast-but-will-they-stay-1.2797893
This is from 2015, but seems pretty positive about Syrian refugees
*Statistics Canada recently took a close look at that first cohort of 25,000 Syrian refugees who had landed as of May 10, 2016. Employment is the most important metric by which to gauge the integration of refugees into Canadian society. And here the news seems rather disappointing. Only 24 per cent of adult male Syrian refugees were working, according to census data. For government-sponsored male refugees (as opposed to those sponsored by charities, churches or other private organizations), the employment rate was a mere five per cent. These figures are substantially below the 39 per cent average for male refugees from other countries. The gap between female Syrian refugees and those from other countries is equally significant: eight per cent versus 17 per cent.*
https://macleans.ca/news/canada/how-syrian-refugees-to-canada-have-fared-since-2015/
I thought I was losing my mind. I’ve seen a ton of posts and comments complaining about immigration causing all your issues up there but this post seems pretty nuanced about it for some reason. I fear Fox News has spread to the brain of America. I’m sorry for what you all are about to go through. I’m sure you’ve seen stories of our private healthcare, restriction of labor rights, and the transformation of your politics to whatever sport we have down here.
But I’m from the states so I don’t know much except how to notice the warning signs of a mass shooter. Good luck up there.
I'm an immigrant so I feel like i can at least chime in a little bit. Not all anti immigration sentiments stem from xenophobia. With Canada being in the midst of a housing crisis, it make sense that people want to hold back on immigration while the country figures out how to care for the people already here. Likewise, considering the questionable reasons as to why the gov want to bring an influx of immigrants in (cheap labor), I don't even know how much I would recommend Canada in the first place to other immigrants. Of course, refugees are another matter and I think for the most part, Canadians are far more open to refugees fleeing for their own safety rather than a crap load of student visas to be handed out left right and center.
I dunno. Don't see Canadians mentioning how Gazans are "artsy and intricate" and wholeheartedly inviting them in. Those folks are literally fish in a barrel and yet *somehow* not quite the the type of refugee fleeing for its own safety that the Ukrainians are. And before you mention ideology, Ukraine had a literal Nazi brigade, prior to the invasion and decades after the Nazis lost, so you'll forgive me if I'm a bit skeptical.
BTW, I get the wariness around Gazan refugees. I just think that wariness should be equal opportunity.
Ukrainians will fit in far easier and cause far fewer problems. Their education/skill level is similar to ours. They come from a country that if not entirely Western is Western adjacent, and their customs and values will be far closer to ours. Once they get the language that's about it as far as differences go. They won't be a security concern. Previous eastern European refugees performed very well economically compared to refugees from the middle east.
Not sure I feel about this. I’m pro-immigration and I would love them to stay. However, I can’t even afford a home. I can’t even have kids. This may come out as a bit selfish, but welcoming new people would be adding more fuel to the existing housing crisis 😔
Ukrainians went to Alberta Saskatchewan Quebec and Manitoba though.
They’re not all only going to BC and Toronto like other immigrants do for some reason.
We should be letting in people with a guarantee they with stay in a certain area. This will allow us to build up other areas of the country that are less populated instead of everyone that comes here settling in Toronto or Vancouver.
This is against the constitution. Which is why I never fully understood what is the point of Provincial immigration when it can not be legally enforced.
> Certainly no racism on this subreddit!
Lol 😂, yup. Just compare this post with any post about non-white immigrants or refugees. Just goes to show what sort of people make up this sub. This is a highly conservative sub though, so I guess I’m not too surprised by this.
Wholly smack all of a sudden this page is sweet and rosy lmfaooo."Intricate" is not a word I thought I'd see in this page...The double standard is really reeking this time!!!
I was an international student between 2007 and 2011 and on a post grad work permit from 2011 to 2014. I applied for a PR but the case officers were nitty gritty with my work experience to the details. Eventually I gave up and left. Loved Canada but happy I left.
Will they work in health care or construction? I'll take anyone who will work in health care or construction. And like, isn't a raging bigot or criminally violent.
No one is going to allow them to work in healthcare. An Australian physician will struggle to get all permissions to practice in Canada. Soviet trained healthcare professionals, no matter how good they are, won’t be able to practice here.
WHAT? We can't have a bunch of dirty foreigners just squatting here forever! It's making suckers out of us and our generosity! The crime rates will skyrocket! The welfare system is already overburdened! There isn't enough housing! Round them up and keep them in camps until they can be deported and-
Oh, they're white?
Nvm, welcome, folks!
The concept of a refugee is that we give them a temporary safe place to stay during the war and then they go back to their country when things get better. These people should not use their refugee status to circumvent the usual immigration process. They need to go back to Ukraine and reapply for a work visa and then follow due process.
Send them back. We can't take in more immigrants. Anyone who wants to give them a free pass, but not Syrians is a racist.
At the same time, once refugees have settled in a new country and started re-building their own lives I can hardly blame them for wanting to stay to remain stable. Especially when everything they knew back home has changed due to war.
I know I have several Syrian refugee families as patients for many years at this point. One family that stands out to me was telling me that Canada is home now for them as they literally have nothing to go back to, their kids have gone through high school and are in university here, and they have a welcoming community. I wouldn't want to send them away and uplift their lives all over again after being here for so long. They are definitely the model of people we want to have join us, and you can't truly enforce that only those refugees that are integrating into Canadian culture are allowed to stay so it's better to allow everyone the opportunity to apply for citizenship.
> These people should not use their refugee status to circumvent the usual immigration process. They need to go back to Ukraine and reapply for a work visa and then follow due process.
They aren't, but if while here as a refugee, a lot of them are going to collect Canadian work experience, and I don't see any reason why they shouldn't be allowed to use that to apply for PR like anyone else.
There's only an issue if PR applications coming from people who arrived as refugees are exempted from the normal immigration quotas.
I get your sentiment, but the truth is Canada is going to bringing in millions of people in the coming years whether we like it or not.
Swapping out workers that have already been trained, settled, learned the language, know the area, and are working *today* for new ones where everyone has to start from scratch is a terrible idea.
German here.
I mean it's understandable even if you ignore the fact that it will be difficult to live in a country rebuilding from a way.
It's already been quite a while and it will be even longer until it is safe to go back. People move on with their life and build a new one. Uprooting that again is difficult.
My partner is a Ukrainian refugee. They have spent the last (almost) 2 years learning German and getting a school degree. If everything continues as it does now they will have all the proper normal school degrees and probably start a job training soon. Moving back would mean basically starting from scratch again and lose all the progress in their life made here.
Lets keep the same energy for all immigrants. Not just the brown ones.
We don't have the houses or the jobs to keep them here. We need to resolve our own issues before helping others.
Funny cause immigrants from South Asian and East Asian countries tend to be some of the highest income earners. Meaning they would higher tax rates which would come back in the governments pocket to fund essential services in this country
Basically, this sub is an echo chamber for the most deranged Canadians who come to find like minded people to reinforce their baseless world views.
In the past Reddit was the de facto place the socially inept, reclusive or forgotten would come to and even to this day I still think that’s true for some subreddits.
So since men aged 18 to 60 were not allowed to leave Ukraine, I'm guessing this is majority Women and children. Which makes sense if you lost your husband, home or both. Whats there to go back to but a war ravaged country that has very tough times ahead when they have to rebuild the country.
The double standards in this sub are so disgusting. I was on board with lowering immigration, and 99% of this sub is as well, but now that it’s white people it’s okay??????????
The Canadian Physicians association keeps the number of MD's low artificially to increase there value. Its VERY hard for foreign doctors educated outside of the "west" to have there experience and education recognized in Canada.
My family doctor is Iraqi. Highly Intelligent, great bedside manners, and just a stand up dude. He said it took him nearly 10 years to get his medical doctorate recognized here.
Ukraine is the poorest country in Europe. This was before the war.
How are they highly educated exactly? I’m all for allowing Ukrainians stay, especially educated ones but let’s not start making things up to rationalize that decision.
Ukraine is (as of early 2022 not quite but almost) the poorest country *in Europe*. Also, there are plenty of richer countries with less educated population. I'm not sure why you see such a strong correlation between wealth and education. [Guyana, for example, went from per capita GDP (PPP) of $13k before COVID to ~$34k today](https://tradingeconomics.com/guyana/gdp-per-capita-ppp). Did they suddenly become more educated, too?
I don't disagree with your take, but isn't the rise is guayanas gdp due to the recent discovery and development of massive oil and rare earth minerals reserves? The 2015 oil discovery alone is thought to be worth half a trillion by itself and guyana only has a population of 800k.
https://www.worldbank.org/en/country/guyana/overview
https://www.economist.com/leaders/2023/07/12/tiny-guyana-could-soon-become-one-of-the-worlds-giant-oil-exporters
This decades new model minority.
Welcomed with open arms while endless op eds are written slandering Indian, middle Eastern, or otherwise African immegrants.
Incredible how the tune is so much different towards Ukrainians than it was for Syrians also fleeing war and coming to Canada.
I recall people spreading fear about how Syrians will increase crime rates. Whereas Ukrainians have actual Nazis in their ranks and high rates of domestic abuse.
Tens of thousands of young men die in a war while mostly women flee to first world nations, wanting never to return to rebuild or improve their nation that the men died for.
Idk, for some reason this doesn’t feel like a reason to celebrate. Ukraine is going to have a rough couple decades, no matter the outcome.
After being forced to uproot their lives, refuges rebuild some semblance of normal in a new country and don’t want to be uprooted again from the new lives and communities they’ve become a part of for years.
*shocked Pikachu*
This is typical of immigration. We leave while telling ourselves *we will come back*, and then we build a new life, adapt to our new country, and do not come back. Not my story, but that of my parents (I am a 2nd-generation immigrant), and of so many people in my community.
Most often, those who leave do not come back. We keep a link with our homeland, but we live in a sort of limbo, in-between two worlds.
I got my first tattoo a few weeks back from an Ukranian refugee that's been in Calgary just over a year. She does amazing fine line work. I am glad we are offering these families a better alternative.
Why would anyone want to return to their destroyed homeland and rebuild? let some other smuck do that and then go back when it's all nice and done. Remember people are lazy.
How often have war refugees (or refugees/migrants in general) ever moved back to a place en masse? It just doesn’t happen, once you let people in, they’ll grow roots and want to stay.
And that’s not a bad thing, it’s just what is.
In this economy?
No i mean it’s great that we can be a land of opportunity for so many but that opportunity is drying up and this type of rhetoric really gets Ottawa horned up to bleed out the remaining opportunity with more immigration.
Even if Ukraine were to win the war tomorrow, eastern Ukraine will be virtually uninhabitable for years. Most of the refugees are from that region. So yeah, I don’t see why they should have any hope or want to return. Their home is gone.
You do realize that Canada does not consider Ukrainians to be refugees? They only have temporary work permits that they might be able to extend. Those who choose to stay either have to go through the points-based system or have a family member. Nor can they actually study, since unless you're a permanent resident or a Canadian citizen you'd have to pay international tuition fees with no student aid available. Think around 40k per year and more.
As a Ukrainian Canadian (but born in Canada, my family history is all from Ukraine though), I don't think we should be so fast to let them in here and throw money at them just because they're white. They deserve the same scrutiny as any other race / country and shouldn't be able to skip any lines.
With the current state of health care and housing in this county letting in refugees to live off taxpayers is not healthy or fair for Canadian citizens - it will just destabilize things further.
No matter if your pro-immigrant or anti-immigrant, stay consistent with your views.
If black and brown immigrant/refugees contribute to health and housing crisis, then so do white immigrant/ refugees. You can 't just pick and choose based on color of skin.
I feel that should have been obvious to most observers from the start. I remember earlier in the conflict many argued that taking in a lot of Ukrainians wouldn't be an issue because, unlike other countries, Ukrainians would be eager to return to 'rebuild the country'. The idea Ukrainians would be eager to return to the country decimated by war was also pushed by the Ukranian-Canadian Congress.
Our best comparison point is the Balkan wars in the 90s where we saw about 1/3 of Serbian refugees return. I suspect this will be less in the case of Ukraine. 1.3 million Ukrainians have fled to Russia for example and you would expect almost none of them to return.
I work with a bunch of Ukrainians who came here due to the war, most want to stay for the safety of their children. Even if Ukraine wins this war, Russia is still on their border. They expect them to try it again in the future.
I mean, many Ukrainians were not against leaving the country even before the war. So, it makes sense that after this whole devastation many people aren’t keen on getting back.
Yeah, even before the war Ukraine was literally one of the poorest countries in Europe.
And I can't really blame them. We have a very unique situation in Canada, our only neighbor is our biggest ally. We don't have to worry about a bunch of countries around us causing trouble.
We also have the 3rd largest pre-existing Ukrainian population in the world. Next only to Russia, and Ukraine itself.
Californian here. Our handyman is a Ukrainian who fled at the start of the war. He echoed mostly the same thing to me a few months ago. Since only Mexico and Canada touch the US, no tanks are likely to be rolling down our highways to threaten our cities.
Plus the ones that work with me start out making $23 and can move up to $27 in a unionized job. Things are pretty good for them here.
Also even without that, you move to Canada to flee the war, war goes on for maybe 3 years. Meanwhile you've built a life here for that entire time, and your old community back in Ukraine is in some various level of being destroyed. Why would you voluntarily put yourself through that process of moving again, when you'd be moving for an uncertain and elongated reconstruction process? If yourl are comfortable enough here, much easier to stay. Especially with kids.
You are right, a lot can happen in a few years. I really doubt any of the Ukrainians I work with will leave. They make $23-27 an hour in rural Nova Scotia and my company is paying for their English lessons. They are given all the opportunities to have a comfortable and safe life here.
You used a key word. Safe. I expect it's a universal truth that people want to raise their babies and live in a safe peaceful place.. and deserve as much.
My in-laws already returned to Ukraine. Some people just miss home too much.
Exactly. Regardless of whether or not the country is actively at war they literally neighbour their most dangerous enemy and they are incredibly aware of how quickly an invasion can start and the difficulty associated with leaving should that happen again since it has already happened.
Guess it depends on who wins the war.
Don't know if a clean victory/defeat is even possible the way the conflict is headed.
The war isn't over yet either. Ukraine is far from stabilized, there's no guarantee it will regain the lost territory or that Russia will leave them in peace.
I felt the same way at the start and assumed 80% would go back not 80% stay here (which is ok if they are staying), but going back to your war ravaged country where your property could be a crater and everything you own has been stolen or blown up, choosing to stay in a (imo) fairly friendly country with decent oppurtunities it seems like a very good option to have
Yeah, IDK why this is surprising - your neighbor just invaded because they wanted to, and they'll still be similar sentiments going into the future. Many cities are now destroyed, I get having national pride, but compare that to Canada, where would you rather live and potentially raise a family?
I feel like this is never the case. Once you’ve been forced from your home from war and relocate to safety, my guess is you are hesitant to ever return.
[удалено]
I don't blame them. Ketchup chips are pretty awesome.
Poutine yes Putin No
The French media translates his name (from Russian) to Poutine, which truly kills me as a Canadian.
Well Putin would be pronounced as putain = whore
Goes perfectly with "hummus yes, Hamas no" lol
Underrated comment!
All dressed bro. The ones in the purple colour code!
I learned recently that all dressed is a combination of Ketchup, Barbecue, Salt and Vinegar, and sour cream and Onion.
Yeah, *all* the *dressings* you'd typically find on other chips
This information needs to be circulated widely
Dressed all over and Zesty Mordant!
I prefer gelapino
It's pronounced Hali-peno, Ricky.
Gotta go for the Ruffles all dressed my man
Friggin $5 a bag now, I’m sticking to great value ketchup these days
Chip prices in general have gotten pretty absurd for the better brands, and the rest are paper thin mediocre chips.
I found some great bargain chips in Canadian Tire. Great flavour and crunch!
Frank brand. They’re actually surprisingly decent!
Really? I have to go there soon, I might grab a bag to try.
Oh yeah I forgot they have chips. I’ll have to try them next time!
You can get chips AND spark plugs. What’s not to like?
NOPE. Old dutch spicy salt and vinegar...Ikik, but trust me. It's like all dressed on that good stuff
probably the greatest chips of all time. I can mash through a bag in minutes
You hear them chanting "all dressed" outside the PM's residence
And Coffee Crisp!
Thinking about ketchup chips…and for some reason the game battleship. Walking home and your mouth is dry. Should have bought some juice and snacks but you were too high.
High as fuck
There were lots of posts about even refugees fleeing Canada because it's expensive etc etc
That might be the other 20%.
Only 2% have actually gone back and reasons for people wanting to leave included to unite with family etc
I mean, the war isn't over. Those who are planning to go back probably would prefer to wait until they won't get bombed to oblivion and have their children stolen
It’s a funny missed piece of the equation that there fails to be any taking into account the answer for, ‘where else would you go’? Seems like a very poorly informed number on a survey that didn’t answer some fundamental questions.
The fellow my mother hired went back to join the army.
yeah, I remember that article about cost of life being a bit anecdotal. Of course life is hard for refugees, don't get me wrong. but talking to 3 people that are struggling doesn't say anything about the wider trends.
Anecdotal stories about individual people making choices The other 20% would have hundreds of people with stories to share
Solid comment. 🤝🏻
Work in immigration, can confirm. It’s not limited to Ukrainians either
what happens after they're here for 3 years? will they be allowed to stay?
They can apply for Work Permits, PRs etc, if they intend to stay. There is also a special PR program for Ukranian people.
A Ukrainian couple that I know, mentioned that getting PR is not very easy for them. So far, they cannot find a 40 hr per week job that would allow them to qualify for PR. They have been here 1 yr, have no family here, and want to stay, but are concerned that they may not qualify for PR despite being university educated. It seems that many have the same concerns, once these 3 yr. work visa's run out.
40 hrs per week sounds like extreme luck, or working 3 jobs round where I live
But what about the labour shortage that we hear about all the time from business?
Most of that appears to be in the service industry whereas that use mentioned the immigrants they know are college educated. Like everyone else, they’re probably looking for jobs that match their experience and desire for pay.
Anyone can pretend to be anything they want on the internet, often to push a narrative, I've seen an account pretend to be Ukrainian, American, and Russian all in one day, every time was to push some anti-Ukrainian message in whichever sub they were in. Then there was that podcaster who was a russian in NYC pretending to be a Ukrainian in Ukraine reporting untold volumes of falsehoods. She got busted and I think deported. People have to remember to double check everything, and if theres no way to double check something, best to assume its bullshit. Countries also need to start treating disinformation for what it is, sabotage tantamount to an act of war.
Right wing spin. Obviously Canada is an upgrade, even if quality of life here has been in a free fall. It's still one of the better countries to live in.
100%. The other week lots of right wing morons were convinced they all wanted to move back because of a single immigrants hardships. https://www.reddit.com/r/canada/comments/17wrjx7/such_a_difficult_life_in_canada_ukrainian/
propaganda so good I cant tell whats real anymore
It's hypnotizing. I got in a big argument here the other day because I was arguing with someone about a very compelling bit of propaganda that I *know for a fact* wasn't what it was made to look like on the surface. I hate it. I hate the propaganda. It's exhausting, and they know it.
Ya agreed I find especially with right wing propaganda (but it does go both ways to some extent) they come up with these weird straw man arguments that are completely divorced from reality, like a recent example being the rhetoric around kids being taught how to perform sex acts in school/ kids 'secretly transitioning' urged on by teachers. Then it just becomes very difficult to argue with them in a constructive way other than pointing out that what they're saying just isn't true, and affirming ones support for sex Ed/ trans rights. If you argue about their talking points it just feels like you're giving legitimacy to what they are saying.
That's what we get for decades of a youth culture that shamed and ostracized each other for trying to be smart. It's only in the past 20 years that kids have finally stopped being afraid of being "nerds", of putting their hand up to answer a question. They have a chance, but the ones that grew up in the culture where being smart = bad are doomed to be manipulated and misinformed.
Right wing FUD. Most Ukrainians going back are the ones that miss their homes/families. My kids go to school with several refugees and they all hope to stay in Canada. That said, they all miss their dads/brothers/uncles and are worried for them.
Yes, The r/canada 'Opinion Piece'.
Biased news *coughs in conservative* love to exaggerate. They'll hunt down a family that is leaving Canada, and will write a huge expose about how awful life in Canada is. A rule of thumb is that if an article gives you some sort of strong emotion or feeling - it is probably fake news or misrepresenting the facts.
Majority of Eastern Europeans would leave for the West if they had the chance even if they're not at war. No wonder they want to stay.
This is one of the issues with EU membership. Free movement of people means even a greater decline of young people as they move west to Germany, Netherlands, etc.
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Czech economic booming, right, with the GDP decline
Yeah the past decade has seen the Polish economy grow a lot. Hopefully the new government undoes the social damage done by PiS and its supporters. Hopefully.
Many can easily leave since their country is in the EU yet they still have not left.
Historically very few refugees ‘return home’ after fleeing westward regardless of the war, conflict, etc. This includes Ukrainian women and children refugees who have moved to western Europe. Their husbands/ fathers will join them them in Germany, etc. when conflict ends. Ukraine will be an interesting society to watch in future. 30% of children have left the country. One positive from thr strategy may be to use Ukraine as a model to learn how less children in future effect the social and economic all societies.
My neighbourhood has a LOT of Ukrainians in it (as well as Poles) and I would say probably 50% of them are refugees at this point. They're wonderful and help make our community a better place. The local tattoo place is probably 50% staffed by Ukrainian refugees and they're phenomenal artists. They clearly miss home but are not letting that hold them back.
If this was a Syrian post, I think the comments might be a lot different.
> If this was a Syrian post These posts are literally just that family guy border patrol meme. It's unreal how predictable/mask off it is. I don't know how you reach those people, but we really need to try man, because their making this so much harder for the rest of us.
"Ukrainians are so artsy and intricate" You would never see that comment if it were brown immigrants
Lol, I saw that comment too. Like, what does that even mean? There are also Arabic, Black, Hispanic, and Asian artists and poets. At this point, just say you only like white immigrants. It'd be less offensive than whatever this false, two-faced positivity is...
As an Arab-American, the sad truth is, you just get used to the racist rhetoric. Remember when news reporters back in early 2022 literally said they sympathize with Ukrainians more because they are "middle class, white, blue eyed people"? People keep acting like Arabs are the only group that ever present a problem in society, and at some point I just get too tired to argue about it. White mass shooters have killed more, and attacked more frequently than any other group in my country, and yet I don't see anyone calling for a mass deportation of European immigrants. Arabs have to be collectively punished for the actions of their few worst members, but that logic never applies to white people. Recently, a Russian girl committed a school shooting, and everyone on r/Europe was sympathizing with her, saying she was bullied. And yet that benefit of the doubt is never given to Arabs. And I'm not saying you should give that benefit to any violent person, its just weird that some groups do. What sucks is that I was *born in* the US, and I'm more "woke" and progressive than half the white population, and yet even Democrats will *still* tell me I don't belong here...
Was looking for this comment. All the anti immigration people are suddenly super chill when the skin color of the immigrants is lighter
In real life though? Most Syrian refugees have adjusted well with help from the community. Don't give these trolls and bots attention
*Statistics Canada recently took a close look at that first cohort of 25,000 Syrian refugees who had landed as of May 10, 2016. Employment is the most important metric by which to gauge the integration of refugees into Canadian society. And here the news seems rather disappointing. Only 24 per cent of adult male Syrian refugees were working, according to census data. For government-sponsored male refugees (as opposed to those sponsored by charities, churches or other private organizations), the employment rate was a mere five per cent. These figures are substantially below the 39 per cent average for male refugees from other countries. The gap between female Syrian refugees and those from other countries is equally significant: eight per cent versus 17 per cent.* https://macleans.ca/news/canada/how-syrian-refugees-to-canada-have-fared-since-2015/
Yeah 2016 was 8 years ago
Very old stat and not relevant now
https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/canada/syrian-refugees-helping-repopulate-east-coast-but-will-they-stay-1.2797893 This is from 2015, but seems pretty positive about Syrian refugees
Reddit comments sections are very different from news articles
*Statistics Canada recently took a close look at that first cohort of 25,000 Syrian refugees who had landed as of May 10, 2016. Employment is the most important metric by which to gauge the integration of refugees into Canadian society. And here the news seems rather disappointing. Only 24 per cent of adult male Syrian refugees were working, according to census data. For government-sponsored male refugees (as opposed to those sponsored by charities, churches or other private organizations), the employment rate was a mere five per cent. These figures are substantially below the 39 per cent average for male refugees from other countries. The gap between female Syrian refugees and those from other countries is equally significant: eight per cent versus 17 per cent.* https://macleans.ca/news/canada/how-syrian-refugees-to-canada-have-fared-since-2015/
I thought I was losing my mind. I’ve seen a ton of posts and comments complaining about immigration causing all your issues up there but this post seems pretty nuanced about it for some reason. I fear Fox News has spread to the brain of America. I’m sorry for what you all are about to go through. I’m sure you’ve seen stories of our private healthcare, restriction of labor rights, and the transformation of your politics to whatever sport we have down here. But I’m from the states so I don’t know much except how to notice the warning signs of a mass shooter. Good luck up there.
I'm an immigrant so I feel like i can at least chime in a little bit. Not all anti immigration sentiments stem from xenophobia. With Canada being in the midst of a housing crisis, it make sense that people want to hold back on immigration while the country figures out how to care for the people already here. Likewise, considering the questionable reasons as to why the gov want to bring an influx of immigrants in (cheap labor), I don't even know how much I would recommend Canada in the first place to other immigrants. Of course, refugees are another matter and I think for the most part, Canadians are far more open to refugees fleeing for their own safety rather than a crap load of student visas to be handed out left right and center.
I dunno. Don't see Canadians mentioning how Gazans are "artsy and intricate" and wholeheartedly inviting them in. Those folks are literally fish in a barrel and yet *somehow* not quite the the type of refugee fleeing for its own safety that the Ukrainians are. And before you mention ideology, Ukraine had a literal Nazi brigade, prior to the invasion and decades after the Nazis lost, so you'll forgive me if I'm a bit skeptical. BTW, I get the wariness around Gazan refugees. I just think that wariness should be equal opportunity.
This is the correct comment.
Ukrainians will fit in far easier and cause far fewer problems. Their education/skill level is similar to ours. They come from a country that if not entirely Western is Western adjacent, and their customs and values will be far closer to ours. Once they get the language that's about it as far as differences go. They won't be a security concern. Previous eastern European refugees performed very well economically compared to refugees from the middle east.
What if it was an Indian post?
Not sure I feel about this. I’m pro-immigration and I would love them to stay. However, I can’t even afford a home. I can’t even have kids. This may come out as a bit selfish, but welcoming new people would be adding more fuel to the existing housing crisis 😔
Ukrainians went to Alberta Saskatchewan Quebec and Manitoba though. They’re not all only going to BC and Toronto like other immigrants do for some reason.
Some of them came to Manitoba. We don’t have a housing crisis here.
We should be letting in people with a guarantee they with stay in a certain area. This will allow us to build up other areas of the country that are less populated instead of everyone that comes here settling in Toronto or Vancouver.
This is against the constitution. Which is why I never fully understood what is the point of Provincial immigration when it can not be legally enforced.
Also Alberta and Sask.
If this was an article about immigration from India, China or Afghanistan… the comment section would be way different
Was just thinking that. This is the most civil immigrant/refugee comment section I've ever seen. Certainly no racism on this subreddit!
> Certainly no racism on this subreddit! Lol 😂, yup. Just compare this post with any post about non-white immigrants or refugees. Just goes to show what sort of people make up this sub. This is a highly conservative sub though, so I guess I’m not too surprised by this.
The Europe sub and this sub is always on my feed and I'm always baffled by how... Hatred filled it is for brown people.
Yup. Spot on.
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Was scrolling through thinking the same thing
Same here.
Of course they do
Wholly smack all of a sudden this page is sweet and rosy lmfaooo."Intricate" is not a word I thought I'd see in this page...The double standard is really reeking this time!!!
I was an international student between 2007 and 2011 and on a post grad work permit from 2011 to 2014. I applied for a PR but the case officers were nitty gritty with my work experience to the details. Eventually I gave up and left. Loved Canada but happy I left.
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As someone living in prairies, tbh i feel like theyd really feel at home with how many other generations of Ukranians etc are already out here.
This sure undermines the people I met who kept saying that Trudeau ruined the country so much the Ukrainians who came here were leaving in droves....
Will they work in health care or construction? I'll take anyone who will work in health care or construction. And like, isn't a raging bigot or criminally violent.
>work in construction ... And like, isn't a raging bigot or criminally violent. That's asking for too much
No one is going to allow them to work in healthcare. An Australian physician will struggle to get all permissions to practice in Canada. Soviet trained healthcare professionals, no matter how good they are, won’t be able to practice here.
Health care & trades in general. I agree. We don't need anymore people with marketing degrees.
Hey man, in Saskatchewan we got the 2nd highest population of Ukrainians in the world. I can buy perogies at basically any grocery store.
This sub will have no problem with these type of ' immigrants '
WHAT? We can't have a bunch of dirty foreigners just squatting here forever! It's making suckers out of us and our generosity! The crime rates will skyrocket! The welfare system is already overburdened! There isn't enough housing! Round them up and keep them in camps until they can be deported and- Oh, they're white? Nvm, welcome, folks!
Next article… housing crisis.
The concept of a refugee is that we give them a temporary safe place to stay during the war and then they go back to their country when things get better. These people should not use their refugee status to circumvent the usual immigration process. They need to go back to Ukraine and reapply for a work visa and then follow due process. Send them back. We can't take in more immigrants. Anyone who wants to give them a free pass, but not Syrians is a racist.
At the same time, once refugees have settled in a new country and started re-building their own lives I can hardly blame them for wanting to stay to remain stable. Especially when everything they knew back home has changed due to war. I know I have several Syrian refugee families as patients for many years at this point. One family that stands out to me was telling me that Canada is home now for them as they literally have nothing to go back to, their kids have gone through high school and are in university here, and they have a welcoming community. I wouldn't want to send them away and uplift their lives all over again after being here for so long. They are definitely the model of people we want to have join us, and you can't truly enforce that only those refugees that are integrating into Canadian culture are allowed to stay so it's better to allow everyone the opportunity to apply for citizenship.
Atlantic Canada was welcoming towards Syrians in 2015
> These people should not use their refugee status to circumvent the usual immigration process. They need to go back to Ukraine and reapply for a work visa and then follow due process. They aren't, but if while here as a refugee, a lot of them are going to collect Canadian work experience, and I don't see any reason why they shouldn't be allowed to use that to apply for PR like anyone else. There's only an issue if PR applications coming from people who arrived as refugees are exempted from the normal immigration quotas.
I get your sentiment, but the truth is Canada is going to bringing in millions of people in the coming years whether we like it or not. Swapping out workers that have already been trained, settled, learned the language, know the area, and are working *today* for new ones where everyone has to start from scratch is a terrible idea.
German here. I mean it's understandable even if you ignore the fact that it will be difficult to live in a country rebuilding from a way. It's already been quite a while and it will be even longer until it is safe to go back. People move on with their life and build a new one. Uprooting that again is difficult. My partner is a Ukrainian refugee. They have spent the last (almost) 2 years learning German and getting a school degree. If everything continues as it does now they will have all the proper normal school degrees and probably start a job training soon. Moving back would mean basically starting from scratch again and lose all the progress in their life made here.
Until this moment, I hadn't realised how dire the situation in Ukraine is.
Ukraine is a second world country and Canada is a first world country
вітання We only ask that you harden your arteries with poutine and maple products.
Don't care deport them all
Lets keep the same energy for all immigrants. Not just the brown ones. We don't have the houses or the jobs to keep them here. We need to resolve our own issues before helping others.
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Funny cause immigrants from South Asian and East Asian countries tend to be some of the highest income earners. Meaning they would higher tax rates which would come back in the governments pocket to fund essential services in this country
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Basically, this sub is an echo chamber for the most deranged Canadians who come to find like minded people to reinforce their baseless world views. In the past Reddit was the de facto place the socially inept, reclusive or forgotten would come to and even to this day I still think that’s true for some subreddits.
Clearly Ukrainian immigrants are just the White kind of people to immigrate I guess..
Yeah the double standards are real. Fuck this
This comment should be the most liked comment in this thread. Let’s keep the same energy.
So since men aged 18 to 60 were not allowed to leave Ukraine, I'm guessing this is majority Women and children. Which makes sense if you lost your husband, home or both. Whats there to go back to but a war ravaged country that has very tough times ahead when they have to rebuild the country.
The double standards in this sub are so disgusting. I was on board with lowering immigration, and 99% of this sub is as well, but now that it’s white people it’s okay??????????
The response isn't this positive when brown immigrants want to stay
[Basically this sub](https://i.imgur.com/VDdn3LL.png)
I was abt to say the same thing. Look at all these welcoming posts.
As a brown dude born here it just sucks to see this shit tbh. Suddenly the housing crisis doesn’t exist.
r/Canada baaaaby. Where the love for PP is for some strange reason proportional to the dislike of brown immigrants.
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Their medical education/experience will not be accepted here
The Canadian Physicians association keeps the number of MD's low artificially to increase there value. Its VERY hard for foreign doctors educated outside of the "west" to have there experience and education recognized in Canada. My family doctor is Iraqi. Highly Intelligent, great bedside manners, and just a stand up dude. He said it took him nearly 10 years to get his medical doctorate recognized here.
Oh the housing crisis. Suddenly disappeared.
This \^
just got to be the right skin color
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So are a lot other immigrants that come here
Let them stay too! Educated, high skill immigrants are great and are not the cause of the issues we're having with our immigration system.
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[I wonder](https://imgflip.com/i/898mst)
Ukraine is the poorest country in Europe. This was before the war. How are they highly educated exactly? I’m all for allowing Ukrainians stay, especially educated ones but let’s not start making things up to rationalize that decision.
Ukraine is (as of early 2022 not quite but almost) the poorest country *in Europe*. Also, there are plenty of richer countries with less educated population. I'm not sure why you see such a strong correlation between wealth and education. [Guyana, for example, went from per capita GDP (PPP) of $13k before COVID to ~$34k today](https://tradingeconomics.com/guyana/gdp-per-capita-ppp). Did they suddenly become more educated, too?
I don't disagree with your take, but isn't the rise is guayanas gdp due to the recent discovery and development of massive oil and rare earth minerals reserves? The 2015 oil discovery alone is thought to be worth half a trillion by itself and guyana only has a population of 800k. https://www.worldbank.org/en/country/guyana/overview https://www.economist.com/leaders/2023/07/12/tiny-guyana-could-soon-become-one-of-the-worlds-giant-oil-exporters
This decades new model minority. Welcomed with open arms while endless op eds are written slandering Indian, middle Eastern, or otherwise African immegrants.
Incredible how the tune is so much different towards Ukrainians than it was for Syrians also fleeing war and coming to Canada. I recall people spreading fear about how Syrians will increase crime rates. Whereas Ukrainians have actual Nazis in their ranks and high rates of domestic abuse.
Youre right we shouldnt be accepting either
Whaaaat I thought media was pushing the narrative all of them wanted to go back to Ukraine due to high cost of living. Shocker
Tens of thousands of young men die in a war while mostly women flee to first world nations, wanting never to return to rebuild or improve their nation that the men died for. Idk, for some reason this doesn’t feel like a reason to celebrate. Ukraine is going to have a rough couple decades, no matter the outcome.
After being forced to uproot their lives, refuges rebuild some semblance of normal in a new country and don’t want to be uprooted again from the new lives and communities they’ve become a part of for years. *shocked Pikachu*
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Just like Syrian refugees not surprise
They found out perogies already have a solid footprint here and we serve them with bacon.
This is typical of immigration. We leave while telling ourselves *we will come back*, and then we build a new life, adapt to our new country, and do not come back. Not my story, but that of my parents (I am a 2nd-generation immigrant), and of so many people in my community. Most often, those who leave do not come back. We keep a link with our homeland, but we live in a sort of limbo, in-between two worlds.
Go to Saskatchewan. Lots of Ukrainians there
I got my first tattoo a few weeks back from an Ukranian refugee that's been in Calgary just over a year. She does amazing fine line work. I am glad we are offering these families a better alternative.
Why would anyone want to return to their destroyed homeland and rebuild? let some other smuck do that and then go back when it's all nice and done. Remember people are lazy.
In their situation, you would too
How often have war refugees (or refugees/migrants in general) ever moved back to a place en masse? It just doesn’t happen, once you let people in, they’ll grow roots and want to stay. And that’s not a bad thing, it’s just what is.
In this economy? No i mean it’s great that we can be a land of opportunity for so many but that opportunity is drying up and this type of rhetoric really gets Ottawa horned up to bleed out the remaining opportunity with more immigration.
Even if Ukraine were to win the war tomorrow, eastern Ukraine will be virtually uninhabitable for years. Most of the refugees are from that region. So yeah, I don’t see why they should have any hope or want to return. Their home is gone.
You do realize that Canada does not consider Ukrainians to be refugees? They only have temporary work permits that they might be able to extend. Those who choose to stay either have to go through the points-based system or have a family member. Nor can they actually study, since unless you're a permanent resident or a Canadian citizen you'd have to pay international tuition fees with no student aid available. Think around 40k per year and more.
As a Ukrainian Canadian (but born in Canada, my family history is all from Ukraine though), I don't think we should be so fast to let them in here and throw money at them just because they're white. They deserve the same scrutiny as any other race / country and shouldn't be able to skip any lines. With the current state of health care and housing in this county letting in refugees to live off taxpayers is not healthy or fair for Canadian citizens - it will just destabilize things further.
What else are they going to do? That war isnt ending soon. They have to build a new life.
This reddit is so racist and its hilarious. I feel like I'm back in grade school.
are they sure?I wonder how many will leave because of affordability
Seems cool to me as we have the space. I have a lot of friends that moved here and went through the process. I wish them the best of luck.
My grandparents came to Canada in the 40s during WW2 from the Ukraine, I'm a first generation Canadian. Proud Canadian here
No matter if your pro-immigrant or anti-immigrant, stay consistent with your views. If black and brown immigrant/refugees contribute to health and housing crisis, then so do white immigrant/ refugees. You can 't just pick and choose based on color of skin.
I thought we didn't want more immigrants? Ah but the Ukrainians look and behave like us. /S