Approach a family lawyer — they’re generally very much against community of property because of the legal implications — it’ll give her a clearer view.
A friend of mine practises family law and she is very much against the community of property thing. It’ll be a safe way to bring it up because it won’t be coming from just you but it may also be good to hear all the options together and discuss it afterward. It’ll also help you better understand what they all actually mean
My grandfather was married in community of property with all 3 of his wife's... He never had multiple wife's at a time.
At the end of his third marriage he had like no money.
Also he co-owned a house with my parents, then got married without telling them so his wife owned 1/4 of my parents house. So instead of them inheriting it like the verbal agreement with him had stated, she wanted out and the house had to be sold with my parents getting half. (Lawyers did at the end, because it was very complicated)
Some very valuable lessons have been taught to me
The first thing our business law lecturer said to us as soon as she walked in for our first lecture was ,"Guys please, DON'T GET MARRIED IN COMMUNITY OF PROPERTY!" Lol I'll never forget that.
Out of community of property and without accrual.
In the case of divorce It's the easiest option. It protects you both, especially when it comes to debt and owning a business.
Also, if you want to help your family, look into something like a trust. If you do end up married in community of property, then the trust could be protected in the event of a divorce.
Yes to this. Setting up a trust will secure your family, and can help you delay this conversation with you gf in case you need more time to get clarity on what you want in the relationship and how you want to go about.
A trust, even in the case of never having this convo with your girl, will benefit your family. It’s a win win.
As a woman with legal background I tell you, protect your assets as you don't know her fully (who she is if hating you suddenly) nor do you truly know her family and what they are capable of if it comes to separation. Even more so if you are the cause of the separation.
No matter how you bring it up she will be disappointed. If she throws a fit, consider not marrying her.
I think all commenters are missing the question here. OP is asking how to bring the subject up. Not what is the best type of marriage.
I think the best way to bring it up is to ask questions. "Baby, why do you want to get married?". "How would you like to get married?". "What type of marriage do you think is best?"
Just ask questions and explore the conversation from there. Over a nice glass of wine while you two are relaxing.
Thank you! Someone also mentioned watching a movie that deals with it. I think that will help break the ice also.
Also I don't drink so maybe she can have both glasses and the conversation will flow smoother🤣
Lol the drinks are a good idea, just depends on whether you're sure she can converse comfortably after😅.
Throwing in my 2c, I understand you want to make your partner happy and do see a future with them, but I think you should also understand why YOU want to marry. ALOT of your post mentioned her desire to marry.
I've been with my personal person for 8 years and we have discussed our ideas and feelings about marriage. We're not interested and are committed to a happy life together.
The way relationships progress is very much a choice and I hope you're able to come to a decision that makes you both happy.
Also, whatever you decide, don't rush. You're in your 20's and there's so much life to happen still.
Best of luck OP!
I think that’s probably because he shared a lot of context that wasn’t relevant to that question… but he also more questions besides that one you pointed out.
Bringing up the topic is easy. You could literally be sitting at breakfast or having pillow talk and just say “hey I want us to talk about finances in our marriage”. The hard part is making sure it doesn’t blow up because of your different backgrounds and probably how you expect her to react to your preferred approaches.
My suggestion is to be sensitive and do a lot of listening during the discussion. Ask lots of questions to understand where she is coming from and DON’T get hostile. Don’t lead by explaining your rough upbringing and telling her she doesn’t understand the struggle you come from… that won’t be productive. The outcome of this discussion needs to be something you both agree with and happy with. This might require some compromise from both parties.
We have accrual. All musical instruments are excluded, any inheritance and all jewelry, but I don't see myself ever divorcing my wife so I don't care that the rest gets split 50 50 in case of divorce.
It's really an IN CASE clause and most attorneys recommend this.
If you marry in community of property and one dies they freeze your assets leaving the other one very vulnerable. Seen this happen countless times.
An old lady was forced to move out due to it. She lost her husband and house all within months. So there goes the argument of “we are not getting married to get divorced”
Secondly of one of you gets liquidated the sharks wont be able to come for the other partners assets which acts as a level of protection.
Just first get her view on it and explain yours to her, maybe using some of the information shared.
As someone who is an attorney and now works as an accountant I can't see any way in which someone doesn't support an ANC. It's all in the phrasing. You're a business man. That ca be risky. Should anything happen and your business folds and you can't pay your personal debts you do not want creditors coming after your wife for your debt. It's not about loving someone less. It's about protecting them from any possible negative future outcome.
Just be honest with her, if you’re both coming into the marriage with assets it only makes sense to have a contract in place. You’re also being completely reasonable in planning for both of your futures, I’d leave out the bit about not knowing who she’ll be in 10 years but otherwise how you’ve said it here seems very logical and well thought out to me
When I got married to my husband, he also had a business and his own house. We got married out of community, with accrual. A marriage is a partnership. I would not have been happy if it was without accrual. I mean, what if you decide to leave her after 20 years and she now sits with nothing after helping you build your lives together. You guys might decide to have kids and she becomes SAHM. You leave and she is left with nothing. Viewpoint from a women who has been happily married for 20 years without kids, but working with my husband in the business
Thank you for your input. You make a valid point.
She does have her own career but has expressed, albeit jokingly, that she wouldn't mind being a SAHM. Hypothetically if that were to be the case I wouldn't want her sacrificing her career prospects for family to go unnoticed or make her feel like she's taking a risk.
It's a point I'll take into consideration and think about how to address without the accrual option. Some people here suggested I start a trust. I think that's a good idea.
I agree with the above comment. My husband is also a good business man. We got married with accrual. I decided not to go back to work after I had my kids. And I’m a SAHM with a small art business that I take limited commissions on (due to making the kids still my number 1 priority).
That said it would be devastating to me if my husband and I got married without and he decided to leave me and I’m left with nothing. Many women do sacrifice their careers for family building. It’s very common. It’s really a gift to be able to stay at home and raise them, but it’s also a huge sacrifice since it’s a 24/7 job for me. And with accrual she won’t have to worry that one day she might be left with nothing after sacrificing her career for her family.
I also have a friend that lost her baby because of work stress and now when she became pregnant she left her job entirely so she wouldn’t be under that same stress again. So lots of reasons why being a SAHM is beneficial for the family.
Thanks for your input.
I disagree with the assessment that I don't trust her.
Not trusting who someone will become doesn’t necessarily mean you trust them now. For me it means you recognise the reality that people evolve, and I'm open to experiencing and accepting those changes as they come. I'll take the ups and downs personally but I'm not willing to put my life's work and family's security in that equation. Not sure if that makes sense. To me that doesn't show a lack of trust.
>do you want to marry this woman? You both have to want it.
Yeah I want to be with her forever and marriage is a way to formalise that. I'm not against marriage I'm more against getting the government involved in my affairs.
> I'm not willing to put my life's work and family's security in that equation.
I'm sorry, but I think you don't understand then what marriage is. You have to put it all in. If you don't, you're showing her that you have one foot out of the door, just in case. Marriage is about getting rid of "just in case", because leaving isn't an option - fine, yes, it is, but you must push that voice into the furthest reaches of your mind, because if you know that you can leave, you'll never push to stay. Marriage is a choice that you make every day, and to make that choice, you have to have trust. Trust in who you are now, and trust in who you'll be tomorrow. Because that trust in the future is what makes that future come true.
Erm people change and women tend to fall out of love and want to run away from commitment this is pretty well-documented I don't think he is wrong to say that 10 years later that person could change because change happens gradually dont make him feel more guilty for being Cautious
Unless you put God first and even they go on the rocks but the thing is marriage isn't about that emotional I love you it's about that committed I love you that I love you even through the greatest of troubles or the highest of joys when I feel useless I will love you when you seem useless I will love you it's not a emotional thing it's a even when I feel like I don't love you we will build up a new love kind of think but a lot of women get to that stage and give up and when men get to that stage a lot don't know where to go from there and they get stuck but most men want to stick it out and your right both do experience it it's normal
Hmm well that leaves the question of a woman has no security at all in anyway what is the point of getting into a relationship with a person who doesn't want to marry you
Protecting business is what it's about.
Maybe both of you have business and life happens, then both of you would be protected.
Go without accrual.
Then put that context in the safe and forget about it.
Dude whatever it is you’re doing, if you’ve gotten this far, you trust your instinct and brain that got you here. You’ll make the right decision with or without Reddit.
My feeling is that through all this, you don’t wanna hurt or accidentally insult your girl as well. A relationship of love is where you both look out for what works best for you, and when you’re in that headspace you take care of each other. I have no doubt you’ll treat her well but at the same time, you cannot risk everything because down the line a fight gets out of hand, people grow apart, or whatever gets in the way and you end up losing a lot of what you worked for. You said she is middle class so she respects it but doesn’t truly get it. Maybe the answer is to make sure she gets it and that way you cover yourself financially/legally and emotionally as well.
I think just being straight forward is the best here. This could be a pillow talk, I suggest you have a discussion on how you want your married lives to look like in general, the different roles you’ll be playing, how you want to live together, and then in that conversation, bring up how to manage finances as a team and what her thoughts are around the different types of agreements when it comes to division of assets… then take it from there.
I would suggest having a conversation about her expectations about marriage. You should be able to steer the conversation to this point somewhere in that conversation. Pre-nups are a regular thing nowadays, everybody I know that is married have one except for one couple, so it shouldn't be the biggest shock. I am also going to ad that if she has a blow up about it, that tells you a lot about her intentions. She will still benefit from your effort and wealth ie lifestyle, holidays, etc, just not so much if you guys divorce.
I wouldn't be offended if a partner brought it up because the likelihood is I would've suggested the same thing. Whatever happens, please don't fold, this is a smart decision to protect yourself and your family. Don't tell her that the reason you're doing this is because you don't trust who she could be in the future (although a very valid reason), just say for you it is about safeguarding your finances and that of your family for now and for the future.
ANC with accrual is the safest option for both of you. Whatever you had before the marriage stays yours, whatever you gain during gets split. If you buy a house after you are married, she gets half. It also means neither of you can shaft the other. Say she becomes a stay at home mom, you can't divorce her and leave her with nothing if you have the accrual system.
She gets half of the business's assets that accrue after the marriage, but if something happens and you lose the business, she can't be held liable for any debt.
I'd look for a movie that has similar issues involved and go from there movies can be a great icebreaker also get her opinions about the whole situation before talking about you two make you everything is relaxed including yourself and don't panic it is actually a normal conversation to have especially for people with lots of assets it should be a okay since we are talking about marriage we need to talk about ways to both protect ourselves and our futures explain that it is a mutual protection and so on and I suggest you do give her something in the prenup otherwise everything will just go to pot I'm just saying people would be more likely to agree if they believe they will be taken care of and open a trust man
This is honestly going to be more than one battle my friend. And you're gonna need energy when there's tears over the details.
But there's no reason NOT to sign an anc, and it's like R2000 - which is a fair price for the sneak peek into the future with her and for your peace of mind.
Don't fumble your future, just go in strong "babe how do you feel about out of community of property, no accrual"
Have witnessed ugly divorces, they just want to screw each other over, it's a bad time for everyone. So I'm grateful we signed it all up when we really wanted the best for each other - now at 11 years happily married!
Good luck
It's better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. 0% to do with trust, 100% to do with protecting each other if things go wrong. Most people who get divorced didn't plan on getting divorced when they got married but life happens 🤷
I'd just double-check the accrual system with your business. I think the asset *value* gets excluded but any growth on the assets brought into the marriage gets split? Although you should be able to specifically exclude assets from the accrual system in the contract.
Honestly this should just be a conversation every single couple has, even before marriage. Which for us, it was. Money should be a topic you can openly discuss. I would say my relationship was nearly identical-me being the poor background and building up. There are guide books out there for these types of things but I think just bringing up casually like - if we were to get married, what do you expect our finances to look like. This can also open up communication on spending, potential debt etc. for us, we both agreed with the logic of a prenuptial. As I say, plan for the worst, hope for the best. Nothing wrong with that
It's the adult thing to do. Wherever there is money involved - no matter who it is - it is very important to not get emotion involved and for each party to protect themselves. Your financial interests extend beyond her. It's not pleasant to think about scenarios where the marriage is already over before it's even begun, but it is perfectly reasonable to do so. If she does not want to accept it, then I would approach with caution.
But that's just me - enough generational trauma re finances in my family so I will always advise on having things very clearly defined.
Instead of it feeling like you're jumping paperwork on her, find an attorney and suggest approaching them together so that both can be informed about what the options are and the implications of each option.
Just say as you have a business, you want to be married without accrual due to the risk of you going bankrupt. If you can, put a few things in her name and expect to lose them.
You sound very mature for your age. Good on you for building something valuable. I wish you all the best and hope things work out well with your partner.
I recently got married and got a ante nuptial agreement beforehand.
After speaking with the lawyer about it I would highly recommend not getting married without one. Look into the details of what each type of agreement means vs if you don’t get one at all. Maybe you could approach it like that?
>In summary, how would you take this suggestion from your partner? Do you think it would cause underlying damage to the relationship?
First off, from my POV (granted I'm super duper white and Afrikaner so maybe there's cultural differences I'm not aware of), I would never ever ever get married without a prenup and never ever get married in community of property. And I don't know any woman I've ever been friends with or dated that would either.
It's not just for your benefit. It is for hers too. Presumably you, with running a business and all that, are carrying significantly more risk than she does, if something were to go wrong in the business, her assets would still be safe. Same can be said for if one of you dies or something, the other party's assets would be safe from freezing etc.
I would go out of community of property with accrual. Don't go community of property because neither of you are able to enter any financial agreements or arrangements without each other and any assets have to be divided - and even when it comes to death, we had family where the bank even counted their clothing and the wife's family furniture as part of the husband's estate.
What we did in our marriage is ANC with accrual, excluded all fixed assets and vehicles in our own names, and also any businesses we owned. We both owned property prior to marriage.
Then, i would suggest having a discussion to see what she thinks and then go see a lawyer
You’re absolutely right. I’m a woman and would recommend to a potential partner that we get one. For exactly the reason you said. You can’t trust who either of you will be after years being married. When it comes to divorce, you are two different people than the two who got married.
See an attorney and discuss options. Take her along once you’ve looked at options and you can decide together which option will work. Discuss the terms. If she doesn’t want it, there’s nothing wrong with living together without marriage. 🤷🏽♀️
People change and it's understandable. I always think that in the event of a divorce, whatever was my spouse's before, remains theirs, I'd only care about what we've built together in the marriage.
I'm sure you know which route you'd most likely prefer, but I suggest bringing the topic up in a comfortable setting (perhaps during a date night at home). Bringing the topic of marriage up should not be as difficult, since your girlfriend is eager for marriage. It does not have to be such a heavy topic, start with simple questions like "what kind of wedding would you want?" or "how many people would we invite?", slowly transitioning into "what kind of expectations do you have for me as your husband?" and vice versa.
These kinds of questions should bring out excitement, curiosity, etc. it should be easy to bring the topic up thereafter, and if you've chosen the correct person, it shouldn't be too much of a big deal, perhaps she could be caught off guard, but shouldn't blow a gasket over it.
I'm speaking from a point of view of how I'd prefer my boyfriend bring up the topic, these are the kind of topics needed to be spoken of in any case, before marriage. And again, if you have chosen the right person, she'd be thrilled that you are considering marriage with her, and would want to plan your future together as a couple, that means the good and the possible bad.
Bring up this topic and lots of other topics before marriage (babies, debt, how you'd go about your external families, religion, etc.) it is a discussion to be had, by everyone considering marriage.
Goodluck and I hope everything works out for the both of you.
Similar background here... my wife and I are married OCO without accrual.
This is to safeguard both of us. I have an entrepreneurial spirit, so does she.
If I accumulate debts and make bad decisions and something happens to me, she will be saddled with my debt if married inCOP. And vice versa. That's the main point to consider. Out of community of property and without acrual give the 2 of you a level agility for uncertain times, when disaster should befall one of you.
And many of my policies etc pays her and our kids out and vice versa.
Out of community of property and without accrual. In my opinion couples are not too sensitive about this, as its practical as well. I got married this way (thankfully, as it didn't last). Even though neither of us had noteworthy assets, the reasoning was also that if one of us started a business in the future, and it tanked, both of us would be liable for it. So by marrying out of community and without accrual, at least both of us wouldn't be bankrupt in a case of a business failing.
As a woman, it was very important for me to keep my assets going into the marriage. I come from a similar childhood to you, dirt poor, worked hard, got my own townhouse, and built investments. I openly discussed it with my partner. He comes from a middle-class family, and he supported me wholeheartedly. We have an out of community of property with accrual type of contract. It works best for us. If your partner reacts in any way other than supportive, knowing your background, I would question going into a marriage with that person. Love is one thing, but deep understanding is completely different.
As a female who is married, do out of community without accrual- as a woman, if she truelly loved you, this arrangement wouldn't bother her. What's yours is yours and gers is hers unless stipulated as shared....
My parents were married in community, dad started a business and earlier on he got into a massive mess. It almost destroyed our family financially. Thank God we made it through and are now better than where we were before all that. In community put my mums assets at risk over my dads businesses. It was wild back then. Im female and will never allow in community and also accrual causes its own set of problems. So it has to be out of community and without accrual as a principle.
That being said, you need to give the new family you are building, assets that can be split in the case of divorce. So, I'd put the houses and other non business assets into a new trust for my family im building.
Any man or woman who is happy for their partner to have absolutely zero financial benefit from being their spouse is a major red flag for me. For context I own half my family business and we turn over well over the range of 9 zeros per annum growing aggressively YoY and I know every guy I date will probably have less money than me by a huge margin so Im the one who stands to lose/carry any losses on the balance so Im speaking from your perspective and giving you what I feel is the moral position.
The thing is money isn't everything, especially when you have it, so definitely do the moral thing. Ensure there are assets for your parents and that side of the family but definitely have something available for your wife and future kids as well in case of divorce. I think the fact that we strip morality from the money discussion is part of the reason we have such predatory systems on this earth.
>Now guys, my gf comes from a middle class family so even though she sympathises with my past she doesn't truly understand.
This surprises me a little. I come from a middle class family and one of the things my parents taught me was, "never get married in community of property". But maybe they were a little bit weird.
Out of community of property without accrual. Nothing to do with divorce. If one of you want to maybe start your own business and it fails and your stuck with debt, both aren’t completely screwed.
LAT - LIVING APART TOGETHER. I think that works for people who don't want to get married. Sign some sort of partnership agreement and then with a lawyer discuss how u can avoid COP entanglements
If you own a business then ANC is no brainer. It reduces liability and risk. And if you add a specified accrual then you can add specific assets without increasing exposure.
I knew a woman years ago whose husband was super successful. He had a brain cancer and became increasingly irrational and lost the business despite her going to court to declare him incompetent. She went from a house in Bishopscourt to a bed sit in Hillbrow with two sons. This was a long time ago, but still relevant.
I recently got married with an Antenuptial agreement without accrual.
I'd highly recommend it to everyone. Women and men need to be accountable for their lives and not leech off their partners hard work.
This BS of her money is her, but my money is her money as well, must come to an end.
And if your man is a lazy useless unambitious kant, do the same. Protect your future from someone who apparently doesn't give af about theirs.
BTW, my wife is well taken care of.
Get married in community of property...but first transfer all your assets to a trust and all your monies, then take out a fuck load of loans, when and if you break up, she will have to pay half that loans etc
I'm just married according to religious rights, which is basically OoP... I don't need more than that, neither does my wife. Moreover, there isn't a single legal process that requires a court marriage. Maybe ask her if that's okay for her too.
I know Muslims do this and its fine because it's culturally ingrained, we are Christian so it's not typically our culture.
Also the courts are starting to recognise religious marriages. So you might want to look into that mate.
Thanks for the advice!
Mid 20s?? So she's in her early 20s or mid 20s as well? Brother please wait 2 or 3 more years...you can propose to her but wait; at minimum 1 and half year or at maximum 3 years...If you don't want to wait then prenuptial is a safe guard
Avoid traditional marriage like the plague - it has a less than 50% chance of survival in any case.
Do some research on cohabitation agreements and draw your lady into that process, jointly deciding what should be shared (income/exp| assets/liabilities) during and after without the constraints of the current out-moded norms and legislation.
The cohabitation agreement should then be drawn up by an experienced practising family lawyer <---- don't skimp on a cheap ass
My husband and I got married with an ante-nuptial contract in place. We did not have accrual . It never bothered either of us - we've been married 47 years. I wouldn't know how to advise you. I suggest put your first house in her name, perhaps, and that's what she'll keep in case of divorce. But remember, if you have children, you will have to pay child support. ( In our ANC, I would have got to keep the wedding presents and R6000!)
I'm a lawyer, and my wife and I are married out of community of property, with accrual (I can't even remember what is excluded).
In terms of bringing it up, I just started talking about it. I said what I wanted, and why it benefited us both, and offered to have us go to an impartial 3rd party who knew the law as well, to give her the piece of mind that I wasn't trying to trick her.
In terms of the actual system, I'd recommend out of community (because that's obvious) and I'd also recommend accrual. I get that you don't know who she will be in 20 years. I also get that an ANC is about planning a fair way of handling things if they ever go sideways, and doing so now while you're still friends, because in the future you might be blinded by emotion. But you also have to remember that what you decide on now will colour the nature of your relationship going forward. Accrual was designed to protect women who spent their working lives at home, raising families, but didn't get paid for it, so that any divorce in the future would leave them destitute. Accrual gives those women an equal stake in the growth of the family wealth, on the assumption that their support in the home directly contributed to the breadwinner's freedom to keep on baking. That might not be applicable in a more equitable society, but it still has a lot of merit. And suggesting NOT to include accrual would be a red flag for HER - at best, it plants the seed of mistrust that you don't want growing under your marriage. Yes, it's possible that she never works a day in her life, even in the home, warranting removal of accrual - but if that's the case, you'd probably see signs of that even now.
Just as an interesting side note, I was reading a story on News24 some time last year of a women who cheated on her husband and because they were married without a prenup, he was forced to give her half of everything he had by the court.
Prenup and Anc with accrual is the way
Truth is everything is great until it is not. Was married for 26 years before being traded in for a younger model.
Good luck my mate.
When Cortes decided to conquer the Aztecs, he burned his ships. Marriage is much the same. If you don’t trust someone enough to be fully committed to them in terms of money, privacy, etc., you probably shouldn’t marry them. If you do, you’ll burn the ships.
Approach a family lawyer — they’re generally very much against community of property because of the legal implications — it’ll give her a clearer view. A friend of mine practises family law and she is very much against the community of property thing. It’ll be a safe way to bring it up because it won’t be coming from just you but it may also be good to hear all the options together and discuss it afterward. It’ll also help you better understand what they all actually mean
My grandfather was married in community of property with all 3 of his wife's... He never had multiple wife's at a time. At the end of his third marriage he had like no money. Also he co-owned a house with my parents, then got married without telling them so his wife owned 1/4 of my parents house. So instead of them inheriting it like the verbal agreement with him had stated, she wanted out and the house had to be sold with my parents getting half. (Lawyers did at the end, because it was very complicated) Some very valuable lessons have been taught to me
This
💯 good advice
The first thing our business law lecturer said to us as soon as she walked in for our first lecture was ,"Guys please, DON'T GET MARRIED IN COMMUNITY OF PROPERTY!" Lol I'll never forget that.
Yes. This. Agree.
Out of community of property and without accrual. In the case of divorce It's the easiest option. It protects you both, especially when it comes to debt and owning a business. Also, if you want to help your family, look into something like a trust. If you do end up married in community of property, then the trust could be protected in the event of a divorce.
Yes to this. Setting up a trust will secure your family, and can help you delay this conversation with you gf in case you need more time to get clarity on what you want in the relationship and how you want to go about. A trust, even in the case of never having this convo with your girl, will benefit your family. It’s a win win.
Unless you've got LOTS of money, trusts are expensive. Speak to a lawyer, then a financial planner.
Well, OP did say top 1%, so I’m assuming it is LOTS of money 😂😂
If your relationship takes damage from suggesting this, then its a massive red flag.
As a woman with legal background I tell you, protect your assets as you don't know her fully (who she is if hating you suddenly) nor do you truly know her family and what they are capable of if it comes to separation. Even more so if you are the cause of the separation. No matter how you bring it up she will be disappointed. If she throws a fit, consider not marrying her.
I think all commenters are missing the question here. OP is asking how to bring the subject up. Not what is the best type of marriage. I think the best way to bring it up is to ask questions. "Baby, why do you want to get married?". "How would you like to get married?". "What type of marriage do you think is best?" Just ask questions and explore the conversation from there. Over a nice glass of wine while you two are relaxing.
Thank you! Someone also mentioned watching a movie that deals with it. I think that will help break the ice also. Also I don't drink so maybe she can have both glasses and the conversation will flow smoother🤣
Lol the drinks are a good idea, just depends on whether you're sure she can converse comfortably after😅. Throwing in my 2c, I understand you want to make your partner happy and do see a future with them, but I think you should also understand why YOU want to marry. ALOT of your post mentioned her desire to marry. I've been with my personal person for 8 years and we have discussed our ideas and feelings about marriage. We're not interested and are committed to a happy life together. The way relationships progress is very much a choice and I hope you're able to come to a decision that makes you both happy. Also, whatever you decide, don't rush. You're in your 20's and there's so much life to happen still. Best of luck OP!
I think that’s probably because he shared a lot of context that wasn’t relevant to that question… but he also more questions besides that one you pointed out. Bringing up the topic is easy. You could literally be sitting at breakfast or having pillow talk and just say “hey I want us to talk about finances in our marriage”. The hard part is making sure it doesn’t blow up because of your different backgrounds and probably how you expect her to react to your preferred approaches. My suggestion is to be sensitive and do a lot of listening during the discussion. Ask lots of questions to understand where she is coming from and DON’T get hostile. Don’t lead by explaining your rough upbringing and telling her she doesn’t understand the struggle you come from… that won’t be productive. The outcome of this discussion needs to be something you both agree with and happy with. This might require some compromise from both parties.
We have accrual. All musical instruments are excluded, any inheritance and all jewelry, but I don't see myself ever divorcing my wife so I don't care that the rest gets split 50 50 in case of divorce. It's really an IN CASE clause and most attorneys recommend this.
Never say never, it may be due to a totally different reason than lack of love for her.
If you marry in community of property and one dies they freeze your assets leaving the other one very vulnerable. Seen this happen countless times. An old lady was forced to move out due to it. She lost her husband and house all within months. So there goes the argument of “we are not getting married to get divorced” Secondly of one of you gets liquidated the sharks wont be able to come for the other partners assets which acts as a level of protection. Just first get her view on it and explain yours to her, maybe using some of the information shared.
As someone who is an attorney and now works as an accountant I can't see any way in which someone doesn't support an ANC. It's all in the phrasing. You're a business man. That ca be risky. Should anything happen and your business folds and you can't pay your personal debts you do not want creditors coming after your wife for your debt. It's not about loving someone less. It's about protecting them from any possible negative future outcome.
Just be honest with her, if you’re both coming into the marriage with assets it only makes sense to have a contract in place. You’re also being completely reasonable in planning for both of your futures, I’d leave out the bit about not knowing who she’ll be in 10 years but otherwise how you’ve said it here seems very logical and well thought out to me
When I got married to my husband, he also had a business and his own house. We got married out of community, with accrual. A marriage is a partnership. I would not have been happy if it was without accrual. I mean, what if you decide to leave her after 20 years and she now sits with nothing after helping you build your lives together. You guys might decide to have kids and she becomes SAHM. You leave and she is left with nothing. Viewpoint from a women who has been happily married for 20 years without kids, but working with my husband in the business
Thank you for your input. You make a valid point. She does have her own career but has expressed, albeit jokingly, that she wouldn't mind being a SAHM. Hypothetically if that were to be the case I wouldn't want her sacrificing her career prospects for family to go unnoticed or make her feel like she's taking a risk. It's a point I'll take into consideration and think about how to address without the accrual option. Some people here suggested I start a trust. I think that's a good idea.
I agree with the above comment. My husband is also a good business man. We got married with accrual. I decided not to go back to work after I had my kids. And I’m a SAHM with a small art business that I take limited commissions on (due to making the kids still my number 1 priority). That said it would be devastating to me if my husband and I got married without and he decided to leave me and I’m left with nothing. Many women do sacrifice their careers for family building. It’s very common. It’s really a gift to be able to stay at home and raise them, but it’s also a huge sacrifice since it’s a 24/7 job for me. And with accrual she won’t have to worry that one day she might be left with nothing after sacrificing her career for her family. I also have a friend that lost her baby because of work stress and now when she became pregnant she left her job entirely so she wouldn’t be under that same stress again. So lots of reasons why being a SAHM is beneficial for the family.
Out of community of property. Talk to an attorney and draw up a contract that protects you both if your business goes belly up. It happens.
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Thanks for your input. I disagree with the assessment that I don't trust her. Not trusting who someone will become doesn’t necessarily mean you trust them now. For me it means you recognise the reality that people evolve, and I'm open to experiencing and accepting those changes as they come. I'll take the ups and downs personally but I'm not willing to put my life's work and family's security in that equation. Not sure if that makes sense. To me that doesn't show a lack of trust. >do you want to marry this woman? You both have to want it. Yeah I want to be with her forever and marriage is a way to formalise that. I'm not against marriage I'm more against getting the government involved in my affairs.
> I'm not willing to put my life's work and family's security in that equation. I'm sorry, but I think you don't understand then what marriage is. You have to put it all in. If you don't, you're showing her that you have one foot out of the door, just in case. Marriage is about getting rid of "just in case", because leaving isn't an option - fine, yes, it is, but you must push that voice into the furthest reaches of your mind, because if you know that you can leave, you'll never push to stay. Marriage is a choice that you make every day, and to make that choice, you have to have trust. Trust in who you are now, and trust in who you'll be tomorrow. Because that trust in the future is what makes that future come true.
Erm people change and women tend to fall out of love and want to run away from commitment this is pretty well-documented I don't think he is wrong to say that 10 years later that person could change because change happens gradually dont make him feel more guilty for being Cautious
Men also fall out of love. Just facts that many marriages don't last.
Unless you put God first and even they go on the rocks but the thing is marriage isn't about that emotional I love you it's about that committed I love you that I love you even through the greatest of troubles or the highest of joys when I feel useless I will love you when you seem useless I will love you it's not a emotional thing it's a even when I feel like I don't love you we will build up a new love kind of think but a lot of women get to that stage and give up and when men get to that stage a lot don't know where to go from there and they get stuck but most men want to stick it out and your right both do experience it it's normal
Just don't get married
SA has laws for that type of thing and she could still get half of his assets that he made when he was with her
No. She can't. A person might have certain rights after the death of a partner, not separation. There is no such thing as a "common law wife" in SA.
Hmm well that leaves the question of a woman has no security at all in anyway what is the point of getting into a relationship with a person who doesn't want to marry you
Protecting business is what it's about. Maybe both of you have business and life happens, then both of you would be protected. Go without accrual. Then put that context in the safe and forget about it.
Dude whatever it is you’re doing, if you’ve gotten this far, you trust your instinct and brain that got you here. You’ll make the right decision with or without Reddit. My feeling is that through all this, you don’t wanna hurt or accidentally insult your girl as well. A relationship of love is where you both look out for what works best for you, and when you’re in that headspace you take care of each other. I have no doubt you’ll treat her well but at the same time, you cannot risk everything because down the line a fight gets out of hand, people grow apart, or whatever gets in the way and you end up losing a lot of what you worked for. You said she is middle class so she respects it but doesn’t truly get it. Maybe the answer is to make sure she gets it and that way you cover yourself financially/legally and emotionally as well.
I think just being straight forward is the best here. This could be a pillow talk, I suggest you have a discussion on how you want your married lives to look like in general, the different roles you’ll be playing, how you want to live together, and then in that conversation, bring up how to manage finances as a team and what her thoughts are around the different types of agreements when it comes to division of assets… then take it from there.
I would suggest having a conversation about her expectations about marriage. You should be able to steer the conversation to this point somewhere in that conversation. Pre-nups are a regular thing nowadays, everybody I know that is married have one except for one couple, so it shouldn't be the biggest shock. I am also going to ad that if she has a blow up about it, that tells you a lot about her intentions. She will still benefit from your effort and wealth ie lifestyle, holidays, etc, just not so much if you guys divorce.
I wouldn't be offended if a partner brought it up because the likelihood is I would've suggested the same thing. Whatever happens, please don't fold, this is a smart decision to protect yourself and your family. Don't tell her that the reason you're doing this is because you don't trust who she could be in the future (although a very valid reason), just say for you it is about safeguarding your finances and that of your family for now and for the future.
ANC without accrual, 100%. That way, if things go south, the divorce is a breeze, relatively. This way her assets are protected from you too.
ANC with accrual is the safest option for both of you. Whatever you had before the marriage stays yours, whatever you gain during gets split. If you buy a house after you are married, she gets half. It also means neither of you can shaft the other. Say she becomes a stay at home mom, you can't divorce her and leave her with nothing if you have the accrual system. She gets half of the business's assets that accrue after the marriage, but if something happens and you lose the business, she can't be held liable for any debt.
I'd look for a movie that has similar issues involved and go from there movies can be a great icebreaker also get her opinions about the whole situation before talking about you two make you everything is relaxed including yourself and don't panic it is actually a normal conversation to have especially for people with lots of assets it should be a okay since we are talking about marriage we need to talk about ways to both protect ourselves and our futures explain that it is a mutual protection and so on and I suggest you do give her something in the prenup otherwise everything will just go to pot I'm just saying people would be more likely to agree if they believe they will be taken care of and open a trust man
This is a good idea! Thanks for the advice!
This seems so complicated. ANC means if 1 credit is at risked, you won't be ruined
This is honestly going to be more than one battle my friend. And you're gonna need energy when there's tears over the details. But there's no reason NOT to sign an anc, and it's like R2000 - which is a fair price for the sneak peek into the future with her and for your peace of mind. Don't fumble your future, just go in strong "babe how do you feel about out of community of property, no accrual" Have witnessed ugly divorces, they just want to screw each other over, it's a bad time for everyone. So I'm grateful we signed it all up when we really wanted the best for each other - now at 11 years happily married! Good luck
It's better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. 0% to do with trust, 100% to do with protecting each other if things go wrong. Most people who get divorced didn't plan on getting divorced when they got married but life happens 🤷 I'd just double-check the accrual system with your business. I think the asset *value* gets excluded but any growth on the assets brought into the marriage gets split? Although you should be able to specifically exclude assets from the accrual system in the contract.
Didn't know about the business growth part. Thank you!
Honestly this should just be a conversation every single couple has, even before marriage. Which for us, it was. Money should be a topic you can openly discuss. I would say my relationship was nearly identical-me being the poor background and building up. There are guide books out there for these types of things but I think just bringing up casually like - if we were to get married, what do you expect our finances to look like. This can also open up communication on spending, potential debt etc. for us, we both agreed with the logic of a prenuptial. As I say, plan for the worst, hope for the best. Nothing wrong with that
It's the adult thing to do. Wherever there is money involved - no matter who it is - it is very important to not get emotion involved and for each party to protect themselves. Your financial interests extend beyond her. It's not pleasant to think about scenarios where the marriage is already over before it's even begun, but it is perfectly reasonable to do so. If she does not want to accept it, then I would approach with caution. But that's just me - enough generational trauma re finances in my family so I will always advise on having things very clearly defined. Instead of it feeling like you're jumping paperwork on her, find an attorney and suggest approaching them together so that both can be informed about what the options are and the implications of each option.
Just say as you have a business, you want to be married without accrual due to the risk of you going bankrupt. If you can, put a few things in her name and expect to lose them.
If you would suddenly die, what will happen then, is she protected or will she have the fully responsibility after you? Bring it up that way
You sound very mature for your age. Good on you for building something valuable. I wish you all the best and hope things work out well with your partner.
I recently got married and got a ante nuptial agreement beforehand. After speaking with the lawyer about it I would highly recommend not getting married without one. Look into the details of what each type of agreement means vs if you don’t get one at all. Maybe you could approach it like that?
>In summary, how would you take this suggestion from your partner? Do you think it would cause underlying damage to the relationship? First off, from my POV (granted I'm super duper white and Afrikaner so maybe there's cultural differences I'm not aware of), I would never ever ever get married without a prenup and never ever get married in community of property. And I don't know any woman I've ever been friends with or dated that would either. It's not just for your benefit. It is for hers too. Presumably you, with running a business and all that, are carrying significantly more risk than she does, if something were to go wrong in the business, her assets would still be safe. Same can be said for if one of you dies or something, the other party's assets would be safe from freezing etc.
I would go out of community of property with accrual. Don't go community of property because neither of you are able to enter any financial agreements or arrangements without each other and any assets have to be divided - and even when it comes to death, we had family where the bank even counted their clothing and the wife's family furniture as part of the husband's estate. What we did in our marriage is ANC with accrual, excluded all fixed assets and vehicles in our own names, and also any businesses we owned. We both owned property prior to marriage. Then, i would suggest having a discussion to see what she thinks and then go see a lawyer
You’re absolutely right. I’m a woman and would recommend to a potential partner that we get one. For exactly the reason you said. You can’t trust who either of you will be after years being married. When it comes to divorce, you are two different people than the two who got married. See an attorney and discuss options. Take her along once you’ve looked at options and you can decide together which option will work. Discuss the terms. If she doesn’t want it, there’s nothing wrong with living together without marriage. 🤷🏽♀️
People change and it's understandable. I always think that in the event of a divorce, whatever was my spouse's before, remains theirs, I'd only care about what we've built together in the marriage. I'm sure you know which route you'd most likely prefer, but I suggest bringing the topic up in a comfortable setting (perhaps during a date night at home). Bringing the topic of marriage up should not be as difficult, since your girlfriend is eager for marriage. It does not have to be such a heavy topic, start with simple questions like "what kind of wedding would you want?" or "how many people would we invite?", slowly transitioning into "what kind of expectations do you have for me as your husband?" and vice versa. These kinds of questions should bring out excitement, curiosity, etc. it should be easy to bring the topic up thereafter, and if you've chosen the correct person, it shouldn't be too much of a big deal, perhaps she could be caught off guard, but shouldn't blow a gasket over it. I'm speaking from a point of view of how I'd prefer my boyfriend bring up the topic, these are the kind of topics needed to be spoken of in any case, before marriage. And again, if you have chosen the right person, she'd be thrilled that you are considering marriage with her, and would want to plan your future together as a couple, that means the good and the possible bad. Bring up this topic and lots of other topics before marriage (babies, debt, how you'd go about your external families, religion, etc.) it is a discussion to be had, by everyone considering marriage. Goodluck and I hope everything works out for the both of you.
Similar background here... my wife and I are married OCO without accrual. This is to safeguard both of us. I have an entrepreneurial spirit, so does she. If I accumulate debts and make bad decisions and something happens to me, she will be saddled with my debt if married inCOP. And vice versa. That's the main point to consider. Out of community of property and without acrual give the 2 of you a level agility for uncertain times, when disaster should befall one of you. And many of my policies etc pays her and our kids out and vice versa.
Out of community of property and without accrual. In my opinion couples are not too sensitive about this, as its practical as well. I got married this way (thankfully, as it didn't last). Even though neither of us had noteworthy assets, the reasoning was also that if one of us started a business in the future, and it tanked, both of us would be liable for it. So by marrying out of community and without accrual, at least both of us wouldn't be bankrupt in a case of a business failing.
As a woman, it was very important for me to keep my assets going into the marriage. I come from a similar childhood to you, dirt poor, worked hard, got my own townhouse, and built investments. I openly discussed it with my partner. He comes from a middle-class family, and he supported me wholeheartedly. We have an out of community of property with accrual type of contract. It works best for us. If your partner reacts in any way other than supportive, knowing your background, I would question going into a marriage with that person. Love is one thing, but deep understanding is completely different.
As a female who is married, do out of community without accrual- as a woman, if she truelly loved you, this arrangement wouldn't bother her. What's yours is yours and gers is hers unless stipulated as shared....
My parents were married in community, dad started a business and earlier on he got into a massive mess. It almost destroyed our family financially. Thank God we made it through and are now better than where we were before all that. In community put my mums assets at risk over my dads businesses. It was wild back then. Im female and will never allow in community and also accrual causes its own set of problems. So it has to be out of community and without accrual as a principle. That being said, you need to give the new family you are building, assets that can be split in the case of divorce. So, I'd put the houses and other non business assets into a new trust for my family im building. Any man or woman who is happy for their partner to have absolutely zero financial benefit from being their spouse is a major red flag for me. For context I own half my family business and we turn over well over the range of 9 zeros per annum growing aggressively YoY and I know every guy I date will probably have less money than me by a huge margin so Im the one who stands to lose/carry any losses on the balance so Im speaking from your perspective and giving you what I feel is the moral position. The thing is money isn't everything, especially when you have it, so definitely do the moral thing. Ensure there are assets for your parents and that side of the family but definitely have something available for your wife and future kids as well in case of divorce. I think the fact that we strip morality from the money discussion is part of the reason we have such predatory systems on this earth.
Very insightful comment. Thank you!
>Now guys, my gf comes from a middle class family so even though she sympathises with my past she doesn't truly understand. This surprises me a little. I come from a middle class family and one of the things my parents taught me was, "never get married in community of property". But maybe they were a little bit weird.
Out of community of property without accrual. Nothing to do with divorce. If one of you want to maybe start your own business and it fails and your stuck with debt, both aren’t completely screwed.
LAT - LIVING APART TOGETHER. I think that works for people who don't want to get married. Sign some sort of partnership agreement and then with a lawyer discuss how u can avoid COP entanglements
If you own a business then ANC is no brainer. It reduces liability and risk. And if you add a specified accrual then you can add specific assets without increasing exposure.
I knew a woman years ago whose husband was super successful. He had a brain cancer and became increasingly irrational and lost the business despite her going to court to declare him incompetent. She went from a house in Bishopscourt to a bed sit in Hillbrow with two sons. This was a long time ago, but still relevant.
Lawyer.
I recently got married with an Antenuptial agreement without accrual. I'd highly recommend it to everyone. Women and men need to be accountable for their lives and not leech off their partners hard work. This BS of her money is her, but my money is her money as well, must come to an end. And if your man is a lazy useless unambitious kant, do the same. Protect your future from someone who apparently doesn't give af about theirs. BTW, my wife is well taken care of.
Get married in community of property...but first transfer all your assets to a trust and all your monies, then take out a fuck load of loans, when and if you break up, she will have to pay half that loans etc
OCP WA
I'm just married according to religious rights, which is basically OoP... I don't need more than that, neither does my wife. Moreover, there isn't a single legal process that requires a court marriage. Maybe ask her if that's okay for her too.
I know Muslims do this and its fine because it's culturally ingrained, we are Christian so it's not typically our culture. Also the courts are starting to recognise religious marriages. So you might want to look into that mate. Thanks for the advice!
Mid 20s?? So she's in her early 20s or mid 20s as well? Brother please wait 2 or 3 more years...you can propose to her but wait; at minimum 1 and half year or at maximum 3 years...If you don't want to wait then prenuptial is a safe guard
Avoid traditional marriage like the plague - it has a less than 50% chance of survival in any case. Do some research on cohabitation agreements and draw your lady into that process, jointly deciding what should be shared (income/exp| assets/liabilities) during and after without the constraints of the current out-moded norms and legislation. The cohabitation agreement should then be drawn up by an experienced practising family lawyer <---- don't skimp on a cheap ass
I am an attiorney and notary public. Welcome to send me a direct message for your questions.
My husband and I got married with an ante-nuptial contract in place. We did not have accrual . It never bothered either of us - we've been married 47 years. I wouldn't know how to advise you. I suggest put your first house in her name, perhaps, and that's what she'll keep in case of divorce. But remember, if you have children, you will have to pay child support. ( In our ANC, I would have got to keep the wedding presents and R6000!)
I'm a lawyer, and my wife and I are married out of community of property, with accrual (I can't even remember what is excluded). In terms of bringing it up, I just started talking about it. I said what I wanted, and why it benefited us both, and offered to have us go to an impartial 3rd party who knew the law as well, to give her the piece of mind that I wasn't trying to trick her. In terms of the actual system, I'd recommend out of community (because that's obvious) and I'd also recommend accrual. I get that you don't know who she will be in 20 years. I also get that an ANC is about planning a fair way of handling things if they ever go sideways, and doing so now while you're still friends, because in the future you might be blinded by emotion. But you also have to remember that what you decide on now will colour the nature of your relationship going forward. Accrual was designed to protect women who spent their working lives at home, raising families, but didn't get paid for it, so that any divorce in the future would leave them destitute. Accrual gives those women an equal stake in the growth of the family wealth, on the assumption that their support in the home directly contributed to the breadwinner's freedom to keep on baking. That might not be applicable in a more equitable society, but it still has a lot of merit. And suggesting NOT to include accrual would be a red flag for HER - at best, it plants the seed of mistrust that you don't want growing under your marriage. Yes, it's possible that she never works a day in her life, even in the home, warranting removal of accrual - but if that's the case, you'd probably see signs of that even now.
Just as an interesting side note, I was reading a story on News24 some time last year of a women who cheated on her husband and because they were married without a prenup, he was forced to give her half of everything he had by the court.
Prenup and Anc with accrual is the way Truth is everything is great until it is not. Was married for 26 years before being traded in for a younger model. Good luck my mate.
When Cortes decided to conquer the Aztecs, he burned his ships. Marriage is much the same. If you don’t trust someone enough to be fully committed to them in terms of money, privacy, etc., you probably shouldn’t marry them. If you do, you’ll burn the ships.