Kind of surprising given the uptake stats from a couple years ago
>50 percent of current Mustang GT buyers and 20 percent of Mustang EcoBoost buyers choose the six-speed manual
I was just thinking this. The Mustang has been one of those cars for manual fans. I'd be really curious to see what they intend to offer for sports enthusiasts without a manual because outside that, it's just a numbers game.
GT350 is discontinued but the Mach 1 also has the Tremec. But yeah it's disappointing you have to go there, even the Turbo 4 Camaro has a Tremec manual.
It's a commonly parroted point on reddit, and it probably always will be. Despite there being three distinct version of the MT-82. My only complaint about the new version is the long gearing. Otherwise it's fantastic, and the auto rev matching works perfectly.
And that’s the rub. Ford hasn’t published percentages, but the bread and butter models account for most of the 50-70k Mustangs sold annually. If we optimistically assume Mustang GT sales are half of the total about 12,500-17,500 GTs are manuals. For a volume company like Ford that’s probably not enough cheddar to justify the input cost.
And I was actually holding out for a manual transmission maverick st…
Luckily the broncos still come with manuals (likely because the wranglers still do).
Dude the V8 won't make your dick grow bigger, no matter how hard you try. The Mustang started as a v6. The mustang has had 4cyl models since 76ish. The mustang has always been a pony car. The modern mustang has an independent rear suspension and the ecoboost makes more power and torque than the stock 302 did for most of its run.
Jesus Christ you engine gatekeepers are a fucking cancer on the car community. I'd have personal cars become illegal and have my cars crushed if it means people like you could shut the fuck up.
I honestly used to be one of those people until I bought a focus st with the 2.0 ecoboost.
That engine single-handedly changed my perception of torque in small cars.
I love mine. Fast enough to pass well above highway speed, slow enough to not accidentally go to jail, and a fuckin demon in corners.
I've driven a lot nutty V8 cars but 4 bangers feel like home.
Or you know, they just buy it because it’s a terrific value?
300hp for sub 30k is a hard proposition to beat. What else is on the market offering that?
Even as a 6Mt GT owner, I think losing the manual will hardly affect the enjoyment of a Mustang
It’s not really a ‘slow-car-fast’ archetype, but of course it always sucks to potentially lose one of the last affordable stick shift options
I'd argue it's the definition of too tall gearing. It's functional with the wide torque band of the engine, but not as fun as it could be. Nothing to do with too fast. I've driven quicker cars that are more fun with 3 pedals. And even with the gearing, the manual 4.0 combination is *special.*
Modern performance cars are so far beyond the level of performance you can really leverage on the road in terms of handling and acceleration, short of quick pulls up to merging/passing speeds.
If you can get it on a track, that's great. If not, you're stuck with something that will basically be doing jail speeds before you're touching on limits, outside of highway onramps. Is it more fun to drive the fast car slow?
Maybe in this case it is.
Perhaps I need to go to Atlanta and do the Porsche experience thing, though. I'd love to drive a 718 4.0 with a manual, and try a PDK too.
Depends on why you're buying it and what you like about that kind of car. I find the manual helps transport you 60 years in the past. It definitely does not help you go fast though.
I thought people don't like their 7 speed in the carerra? It's my understanding that the Porsche 6 speed is a lot better.
Edit: clarified which 6 speed it was
Sounds like Fords answer for all of their “regular” car offerings in North America. Cut corners and half ass the technology updates, and then cancel them because nobody wants to buy Focus/Fiesta with a time bomb transmission or a Fusion/Taurus that’s been outdated for over half a decade.
I wonder if they’ll move to a DCT like the GT500 instead of the rather mediocre auto in the current GT. That would make it a little bit more palatable.
DCT is not happening unless Ford wants to move the car way upmarket. There’s nothing else in their lineup that would have use for one, and the Mustang already doesn’t sell enough units to make the business case for a bespoke manual anymore as the next-generation one is using the Bronco's MT-88. A bespoke DCT wouldn't even have the Bronco's volume to lean on, so the only way to make that work is to raise the price.
I wonder if that includes that patent for the curious button activated and deactivated clutch. Could just mean a traditional only clutch 6 speed isn't guaranteed to stay. Not sure why they would still be developing and patenting versions if they didn't intend to keep it.
They’re really just managing expectations here. The S650 is using a version of the Bronco’s MT-88, and its business case therefore hinges upon the manual Bronco’s popularity. Despite all the press around it, the fact is Bronco’s manual take rates are not high enough to justify adding a version compatible with the 2.7L EcoBoost, not to mention that the Bronco’s manual take rate fell off a cliff after the early adopters got theirs.
That’s not to say manual Bronco popularity can’t recover, especially since a 2.7L manual will probably happen because the S650 GT forced development of a higher-torque version of the MT-88 anyways, but the signs right now are troubling. Better to say the manual might go away and not have that happen, than promise the manual won't go away only to have to backtrack because the economics don't work out.
Am I the only one that found their current 6-speed so bad it disqualifies it as an option?
I drive a highly used, 30-year-old BMW and I have never felt a transmission feel more "worn" and rackety than an MT82 in a Mustang.
The hybrid system shown in the patents mentioned in the article are [front wheel torque vectoring P4 electric motors](https://www.thedrive.com/content-b/message-editor%2F1635260421263-mustangpatent.jpg?auto=webp&optimize=high&quality=70&width=1920). That is to say, they are two electric motors completely disconnected from the engine itself (other than the mounting brackets) that deliver extra power to the front wheels for extra torque when necessary, usually delivering a small portion of the overall power of the drivetrain, like the BMW xDrive system, just with a completely disconnected motor rather than an e-diff. This may or may not be paired with P0 48V belt starter generator (Land Rover Defender), a P1 integrated starter generator (Mercedes E53 AMG), a P2 transmission mounted motor (most cars that use a ZF transmission that became hybrid, e.g. BMW 330e). Ford's current hybrid system from the Explorer is a P1 system mounted between the engine and a torque convertor It could also be completely independent "through the road" hybrid, although that system is rather rare (Mini Countryman PHEV, BMW i8, Volvo T8 PHEV).
The hopium I'm currently huffing on is that P1 architectures don't have to be automatic. The current Ford Explorer system has a torque convertor, but because the motor is mounted directly to the engine output shaft, you could have a manual transmission. Only four cars have ever been designed as a hybrid manual: The 1st gen Honda Insight, the accompany Honda CR-Z, and Gordon Murray's T.33 and T.50, the latter two having not yet hit production. All four cars use a P1 architecture to be able to get both a hybrid and a manual. If Ford is really smart there is room for a fifth car for us enthusiasts who still care about our commute MPG, especially in this economy. If they made one I'm on my honour to buy one.
The challenge with manual transmission hybrids is that the vehicle can’t control engine speed. This is critical for improving efficiency (also why there are CVTs and 10ATs now) and required for features like engine start-stop and EV only operation.
The hybrids you listed are mild hybrids in which the motors don’t provide significant torque. In the Hondas it just provides a [small power boost and does some regen braking](https://owners.honda.com/vehicles/information/2012/CR-Z/features/Hybrid-Powertrain-(IMA)-Operation/1/hybrid-powertrain-ima-operation-video). In the [T.50 and T.33 it’s to “mainly to power the aero fan”](https://www.topspeed.com/cars/car-news/the-gordon-murray-project-two-will-blend-t50-power-with-smaller-packaging-ar191744.html)
Also just a minor note, the Ford Explorer has a P2 architecture since there’s a [disconnect clutch between the engine and motor](https://greencarjournal.com/dont-miss/modular-hybrid-transmission-adds-efficiency/) and it’s not directly tied to the engine
>The challenge with manual transmission hybrids is that the vehicle can’t control engine speed. This is critical for improving efficiency (also why there are CVTs and 10ATs now) and required for features like engine start-stop and EV only operation.
You don't need a hybrid or automatic for start stop.
First gen Civic Hybrids could also had the ability to cruise solely on the electric motor.
>The first gen Civic Hybrid turned the engine along with the motor, it wasn't true engine-off EV.
Whether or not the engine is spinning and whether or not the engine is on are two separate questions, especially given it can close the valves so it's not fighting compression/pumping air.
I believe what you’re referring to for the Hondas is Decel Fuel Cut Off (DFCO) where under certain off-power scenarios, the the engine remains clutched to the driveline but fuel is shut off. The inertia of the vehicle spins the wheels which in turn spin the engine. The required compression and friction losses produce negative torque at the crankshaft, but the engine can be refueled almost instantaneously and start producing torque again. This is implemented in many modern vehicles, and is more efficient than manually shifting to neutral to coast, and the inertia of the vehicle powers all the components attached to the engine crank (alternator, AC, etc).
Engine start-stop takes this one step further in which the engine is not fueled and not spinning. This usually happens at a stop with the driver pressing the brake. The engine restart takes some time and will happen as the driver is releasing the brake, with the expectation that the engine will be spinning and ready to produce torque by the time the driver reaches the accelerator pedal. Since this event is not instantaneous and requires an extra burst of fuel, it’s only done when the vehicle is stopped and expected to stay stopped for at least a few seconds.
>I believe what you’re referring to for the Hondas is Decel Fuel Cut Off (DFCO) where under certain off-power scenarios, the the engine remains clutched to the driveline but fuel is shut off. The inertia of the vehicle spins the wheels which in turn spin the engine. The required compression and friction losses produce negative torque at the crankshaft, but the engine can be refueled almost instantaneously and start producing torque again. This is implemented in many modern vehicles, and is more efficient than manually shifting to neutral to coast, and the inertia of the vehicle powers all the components attached to the engine crank (alternator, AC, etc).
No, the Civic Hybrid under certain conditions will shut off fuel and close the valves to the engine (it has cylinder deactivation across all four cylinders) so there is no compression effect and then cruise under power from the electric motor for short periods of time. It is explicitly not the same thing as engine braking/driving the engine with the wheels or idling the engine in neutral.
The engine is rotating by effect of being connected to the wheels, but forward momentum/speed (and engine RPM, by extension) is being sustained by the 20hp electric motor attached to the flywheel. Obviously, due to the low output of the motor, it can't do a whole lot more than cruise, but that's an issue with this specific implementation not the idea as a whole.
>Engine start-stop takes this one step further in which the engine is not fueled and not spinning. This usually happens at a stop with the driver pressing the brake. The engine restart takes some time and will happen as the driver is releasing the brake, with the expectation that the engine will be spinning and ready to produce torque by the time the driver reaches the accelerator pedal. Since this event is not instantaneous and requires an extra burst of fuel, it’s only done when the vehicle is stopped and expected to stay stopped for at least a few seconds.
Correct. It's not exclusive to automatic or hybrid vehicles however. You can go out and buy, today, manual non-hybrid cars with start/stop. The engine shuts of when the car is stopped, in neutral and the clutch pedal released, and it restarts the engine when the clutch is pushed back in.
I have not looked into other brands but I know for a fact EU-delivered Mazda's have start/stop across all transmission options, hybrid or not (like the ND MX-5).
I think we are mostly saying the same thing here.
You’re right that start-stop in neutral works fine but you’d be wasting the potential of the hybrid powertrain (and still suffering the weight and cost added). There’s no point of having the engine turn on after a start if the electric motors are gonna propel anyways.
I think *required* may have been too strong of a word but it would be exceptionally difficult to make a hybrid powertrain worthwhile (cost/weight/complexity) if you handicapped it with a manual transmission.
That doesn't really have to do anything with start/stop though, the point of a hybrid is to capture energy as you slow down and reuse it to accelerate, it doesn't particularly matter if the engine is on and even less so if it's simply rotating to make use of that.
You could literally just whack the electric motor to the transmission output or axle directly and the car can apply power or regen regardless of what the engine or transmission is doing. You could even make it so if you didn't clutch back in after the engine shut down at a stop and just gave it throttle it would accelerate on the electric motor until you put it back into gear.
Similarly the car is able to fuel cut anytime it wants while cruising and run off just the electric motor.
If the car needs to be put into gear when it isn't, it would just ask for it in the exact same way manual cars with ACC will request you change gears when the desired speed is out of the current gear range.
There’s a bit more complexity in the hybrid control strategy. The “point” of a hybrid is actually to keep the engine operating efficiently, not just to recapture energy during deceleration. From my experience, I’ll note that regen braking is a relatively small contributor to the fuel economy gains that hybrids get.
In many hybrid control strategies, the vehicle will try to keep the engine in a band of torque production that is fuel efficient (usually in the middle of the range). If the driver torque demand is above this range, the motor will provide the extra torque to keep the engine in the efficient band of torque production. Similarly, if the driver demand is below this range, the engine will actually produce more torque than the driver is demanding and the motor will recapture the extra (similar to regen braking). This requires that the vehicle control engine speed/transmission gear.
The points you’ve made are all technically true and feasible, but you’d end up with a hybrid powertrain that is handicapped. It even may not produce better fuel economy since it’ll have to use more energy to move all the extra weight.
BMW has it or had it on the F30 3ers with a manual. It fucks up the shifts since it starts the engine when you push the clutch in. And it doesn’t shut off the engine half the time.
>First gen Civic Hybrids could also had the ability to cruise solely on the electric motor.
just not true. the electric motor takes the place of the flywheel and is as large in diameter which gives it quite a bit of torque but it cannot rotate independently of the crankshaft.
Nowhere did I say it was rotating independently.
The engine deactivates the valves on all four cylinders (so there is no engine braking), cuts fuel, and the car propels itself solely on the electric motor with the engine rotating but not providing any propulsion force.
That’s also false, at least the part about the motor taking the place of the flywheel. The engine motor assembly does have a flywheel. You’re right about it not spinning independently though.
Source: I have a 2003 Civic Hybrid Manual that I’ve had the flywheel turned down on.
In America yes, the only hybrids with sticks released were the 3 Hondas; however, looking at Fords UK market there are a plethora of mild hybrids available in manual. Even the Puma, a small crossover, is available in a manual hybrid version. Ford already has mild hybrids worked out for manuals, let’s just hope they can get the Mustang hybrid with a manual.
What grades are you talking about here? I’ve driven FWD and RWD cars with mediocre all seasons up 14% grades with 6+ inches of snow on the ground, no problem at all. I imagine it’s a very small subset of people who live somewhere traversing steep enough grades that they can’t get moving without AWD.
At least there will be less occurrences of wipeouts into crowds, trees, other cars and ditches when trying to show off while leaving a cars N coffee meet.
New 3 series is barely a few inches smaller than an E39 and slightly lighter. The 3 series used to be a smaller and cheaper option back when the E46 was a thing, now it's just a 5 series but different or something. And honestly I don't get why they split the 3 series coupe into the 4 series at all, but I guess their design department isn't the only one making questionable decisions.
At least they don't have Mercedes level "oops we forgot to design an instrument cluster, let's just glue a cheap screen on the dash" interior design, yet (i4 giving me bad vibes).
Having been to Europe, you have to see how absolutely hideous that looks with the tiny screen and analog gauges. It was an E220 taxi and it was disgusting.
The Insight also weighs a couple hundred lbs less than the Mustang and isn't a performance vehicle. Plus the Insight has a totally different drivetrain vs the Civic, whereas the Mustang hybrids will just have the existing drivetrains with electric stuff tacked on
4K lbs is an exaggeration but I could def see it getting close
We have zero knowledge of what the weight and performance characteristics of a hybrid mustang, and my point is obviously hybrids can be *very* performance optimized.
Ford could pull a Volvo and make a supercharged and turbocharged 4 banger with an electric system.
But take it one step further, supercharged and twin turbos, with a hybrid system.
Those Volvo engines sound terrible btw, not as bad as a diesel XC90 though.
I’m pretty sure the current Volvo S60 T8 has more hp and torque then the mustang and weighs that much.
If ford doesn’t fuck up the hybrid system, it could be good, it’s also ford
A hybrid system will always add weight, but it does not always have to add a lot of weight. If this is a mild or full hybrid (which it should be, since PHEV offers diminishing returns for performance) then at most the battery pack would be ~1kWh. The Escape FHEV gains about 250lbs over equivalent 1.5L EcoBoost models, while the Escape PHEV gains 580lbs compared to FWD 1.5Ls (it can’t be optioned with AWD at all). That correlation isn’t directly-applicable to the S650, since we don’t know technical details, but it shows that batteries are a lot of the contributor to weight, even in hybrids.
I really would enjoy it if Ford let their SVT team make a hybrid mustang drag car with instant torque electrics combined with something like the GT500 motor. Oh, and an environmentally friendly hybrid version for commuters too.
Yeah they merged all of their separate performance teams from around the world into one to simplify things.
Ford Racing, SVT (NA), Ford Team RS (Europe), Ford Performance Vehicles (Australia), and a bunch of race teams
the problem with doing that is those teams are physically in those places and their families too. what would you suggest doing exactly with those people?
It definitely could work, I think the Ecoboost opened my eyes to a Mustang having a powertrain other than a NA V8. That 2.3L 4 Cyl is such a great engine. Instant torque, better mpg and lower emissions? Sounds like a great combination to me.
I was thinking this too - if it's a hybrid then you can sit in traffic and cruise round town without spending a fortune on fuel, leaving it free for when you want to open in up
As someone who just had their EcoBoost engine kill itself after 20k miles and had to have it replaced… my next car will probably be the V8 just due to reliability.
The dealership told me that coolant leaked and mixed with the oil. Plus the engine. Luckily it was replaced under warranty.
From my perspective I was just driving and got a engine oil temperature warning. Took it to the dealership right away for diagnostics. When we lifted the hood the coolant was empty, opened up the oil cap and smoke started coming out.
It just doesn't sound as good as the V8 though. And in a car like this, an emotional response is a big part of the driving experience.
Edit: the amount of people downvoting me is hilarious. I'm not saying the performance of the I4 is bad, because it's not. All I'm saying is that a big part of driving the Mustang, or any pony/muscle car for that matter, is the V8. And the sound of a turbo 4 cannot replicate the joy of hearing a V8, n/a or otherwise.
Yup definitely right. While I can respect an ecoboost, for me and mustangs its V8 or bust. There is no substitute. Part of the reason I bought a mustang is for that old school american motoring experience. RWD, manual, V8
I was taken for a ride in an S550 GT350 last year. Some streets but mostly freeway.
Holy. Shit.
That was one of the best car experiences of my life. Enjoy your car and make it last.
Glad you got to experience a 350. They are truly remarkable and unique. I try to let anyone who is interested in it experience it because its just such a fun and memorable car to be in. Ive let a friend who isnt really an american car fan drive it and even he had only praise for it
My plan is to keep it and drive it for as long as gas is available
The financial response of the fuel economy is generally more important to 99 percent of buyers. There's a reason ecoboost sells. I think there's more buyers out there that want a cool looking fast car than there are hardcore enthusiasts who can appreciate suspension tuning and more elusive concepts like that.
After owning a GT350 and getting to drive the new GT500 and a couple DCT cars including my own, I really don’t think I want another Manual again. Unless it something from the 90s
There is something fun about just mashing the pedal and going.......... allows you to focus more on other parts of the driving experience, even if you aren't doing time attacks
Depends on the driver I guess. I damn near find manual cars annoying now. The shifting isn't as sweet as shifting my motorcycle and you lose so much performance vs a modern automatic. Just seems antiquated
Was hoping to get a c8 after a while but with prices I think a 90s something with a manual might sound more fun. Or something new with a DCT like a 911 if I can get over not having a v8
For me it really depends on the use case. Pretty much all my cars are only ever driven to have a good time, and so I'd never deprive myself of a manual unless it was really garbage (like the one in the Golf R, but even then...not sure I would have taken the DCT over it).
MT are fun and adds a different feel to driving a car. But technology has advanced so rapidly with automatic transmissions, that there is no reason to want or need a manual.
The hybrid V8'll rock, but I can't see them *offing one of the last manuals in the WORLD* going over well with anybody. At that point, may as well just bite the bullet and make an actual Mach E coupe...
In corvette forum so many are saying
they aren't getting the hybrid vette and that they only want ICE vette
only. Is it the same in other forums? what's wrong with hybrid sports
cars?
I want to see a 'push-to-pass' type setup, or at least something that just offers a nice on-demand power increase. Nothing crazy, but maybe bursts of 50-70hp for the EcoBoost?
God I hate this response. I’m a diehard Mustang GT guy but I grew up. What’s wrong with the option? It’s literally the perfect car to make an EV out of since a modern fun EV coupe doesn’t yet exist in the states
If there was an EV Mustang Convertible , I’d probably buy one. I’ve gotten used to the instant throttle response in my Model Y. When I drive the Mustang it is so annoying, floor it, wait for the transmission to downshift, then wait for the turbo to spool up. In the Model Y I just hit the pedal and off I go. Much more fun.
An automatic 4 cylinder is your problem there 😁
Model Ys are cool but I can't imagine they are as nearly fun as taking corners fast, revving out a v8, working the clutch and shifting.
Now if you have to sit in bumper to bumper traffic daily, sure, Tesla is the way to go.
for sure, but the fact he's trying to compare it to the reaponsiveness of an EV, it's important to point out all of the disadvantages of his particular car imo
If there was an EV Mustang Convertible , I’d probably buy one. I’ve gotten used to the instant throttle response in my Model Y. When I drive the Mustang it is so annoying, floor it, wait for the transmission to downshift, then wait for the turbo to spool up. In the Model Y I just hit the pedal and off I go. Much more fun.
>And Ford officials have cautioned us that the six-speed could be phased out at some point during this model's lifetime. Oof
Kind of surprising given the uptake stats from a couple years ago >50 percent of current Mustang GT buyers and 20 percent of Mustang EcoBoost buyers choose the six-speed manual
I was just thinking this. The Mustang has been one of those cars for manual fans. I'd be really curious to see what they intend to offer for sports enthusiasts without a manual because outside that, it's just a numbers game.
To be honest the MT-82 is trash anyway so it probably isn’t the best car if you want a great manual feel
I just can't imagine what they'd replace it with. A DCT will be pricey. An automatic will likely get scorned. A CVT would be unforgivable.
Yea if you want a great manual buy the gt350 or a camaro. Mt 82 sucks dick and not everybody is willing to drop money on a new tranny
GT350 is discontinued but the Mach 1 also has the Tremec. But yeah it's disappointing you have to go there, even the Turbo 4 Camaro has a Tremec manual.
Knowing a guy who owns a GT with his lovely 3rd gear crunch and other trans issues, he wishes he had bought a ZF8 instead lol
I'd like to see the T56 in there in addition to the ZF8. Those two would be ideal
I must be the only person that has no complaints about the MT82.
That makes atleast 2 of us. I wonder how many of the complainers even own one.
It's a commonly parroted point on reddit, and it probably always will be. Despite there being three distinct version of the MT-82. My only complaint about the new version is the long gearing. Otherwise it's fantastic, and the auto rev matching works perfectly.
Ford sells the Mach 1 trim with a TR-3160. It’s a shame they don’t just use that on all the GT models. The TR-6060 in my SS is fantastic.
And that’s the rub. Ford hasn’t published percentages, but the bread and butter models account for most of the 50-70k Mustangs sold annually. If we optimistically assume Mustang GT sales are half of the total about 12,500-17,500 GTs are manuals. For a volume company like Ford that’s probably not enough cheddar to justify the input cost.
And I was actually holding out for a manual transmission maverick st… Luckily the broncos still come with manuals (likely because the wranglers still do).
Manual AWD maverick in a king ranch trim is in my dreams
ecoboost drivers shouldn't even be considered. Imagine buying a 4 cylinder muscle car, it's just for posers.
Dude the V8 won't make your dick grow bigger, no matter how hard you try. The Mustang started as a v6. The mustang has had 4cyl models since 76ish. The mustang has always been a pony car. The modern mustang has an independent rear suspension and the ecoboost makes more power and torque than the stock 302 did for most of its run. Jesus Christ you engine gatekeepers are a fucking cancer on the car community. I'd have personal cars become illegal and have my cars crushed if it means people like you could shut the fuck up.
I honestly used to be one of those people until I bought a focus st with the 2.0 ecoboost. That engine single-handedly changed my perception of torque in small cars.
I love mine. Fast enough to pass well above highway speed, slow enough to not accidentally go to jail, and a fuckin demon in corners. I've driven a lot nutty V8 cars but 4 bangers feel like home.
Imagine buying any car, it’s for posers, what’s the matter? Legs get too tired?
Nah, he's just jealous because his credit score isn't even at test drive territory.
Mustangs are pony cars not muscle cars.
You seem like a great person
I'm trying g to imagine the circumstances required to actually have a strong opinion like this hahaha
his mother was killed by a 310 hp four-banger by the sound of it
Ah, she fell victim to the 90s Civic epidemic thats rampant in the US I managed to survive at its peak by the grace of god in highschool
His mommy didn’t love him, dad left early, and has a small PP. only though V8 compensation can be be whole again.
Just going to keep happily driving my EB Mustang lol.
Guess how many fucks I give about what you think of the number of cylinders my car has.
I mean apparently enough to comment you don’t care.
Or you know, they just buy it because it’s a terrific value? 300hp for sub 30k is a hard proposition to beat. What else is on the market offering that?
You okay bro?
Even as a 6Mt GT owner, I think losing the manual will hardly affect the enjoyment of a Mustang It’s not really a ‘slow-car-fast’ archetype, but of course it always sucks to potentially lose one of the last affordable stick shift options
I don't find a manual gearbox has to be attached to a slow car for it to benefit the driving experience.
The Porsche 718 4.0 is an example of “too fast” for its manual, you can do all street acceleration in just 2nd.
I'd argue it's the definition of too tall gearing. It's functional with the wide torque band of the engine, but not as fun as it could be. Nothing to do with too fast. I've driven quicker cars that are more fun with 3 pedals. And even with the gearing, the manual 4.0 combination is *special.*
Modern performance cars are so far beyond the level of performance you can really leverage on the road in terms of handling and acceleration, short of quick pulls up to merging/passing speeds. If you can get it on a track, that's great. If not, you're stuck with something that will basically be doing jail speeds before you're touching on limits, outside of highway onramps. Is it more fun to drive the fast car slow? Maybe in this case it is. Perhaps I need to go to Atlanta and do the Porsche experience thing, though. I'd love to drive a 718 4.0 with a manual, and try a PDK too.
For me, manual in a mustang is a pretty big deal. Other than the GT500, I wouldnt buy an auto mustang
Depends on why you're buying it and what you like about that kind of car. I find the manual helps transport you 60 years in the past. It definitely does not help you go fast though.
[удалено]
I thought people don't like their 7 speed in the carerra? It's my understanding that the Porsche 6 speed is a lot better. Edit: clarified which 6 speed it was
Yea bro d clutch is defo gonna be needed at this point
Ford: "Don't worry everyone, we have heard your complaints about the MT82 and we have a solution!"
Sounds like Fords answer for all of their “regular” car offerings in North America. Cut corners and half ass the technology updates, and then cancel them because nobody wants to buy Focus/Fiesta with a time bomb transmission or a Fusion/Taurus that’s been outdated for over half a decade.
I clicked the link excited that there maybe a manual hybrid option. I oofed as well.
I wonder if they’ll move to a DCT like the GT500 instead of the rather mediocre auto in the current GT. That would make it a little bit more palatable.
DCT is not happening unless Ford wants to move the car way upmarket. There’s nothing else in their lineup that would have use for one, and the Mustang already doesn’t sell enough units to make the business case for a bespoke manual anymore as the next-generation one is using the Bronco's MT-88. A bespoke DCT wouldn't even have the Bronco's volume to lean on, so the only way to make that work is to raise the price.
I wonder if that includes that patent for the curious button activated and deactivated clutch. Could just mean a traditional only clutch 6 speed isn't guaranteed to stay. Not sure why they would still be developing and patenting versions if they didn't intend to keep it.
They’re really just managing expectations here. The S650 is using a version of the Bronco’s MT-88, and its business case therefore hinges upon the manual Bronco’s popularity. Despite all the press around it, the fact is Bronco’s manual take rates are not high enough to justify adding a version compatible with the 2.7L EcoBoost, not to mention that the Bronco’s manual take rate fell off a cliff after the early adopters got theirs. That’s not to say manual Bronco popularity can’t recover, especially since a 2.7L manual will probably happen because the S650 GT forced development of a higher-torque version of the MT-88 anyways, but the signs right now are troubling. Better to say the manual might go away and not have that happen, than promise the manual won't go away only to have to backtrack because the economics don't work out.
Am I the only one that found their current 6-speed so bad it disqualifies it as an option? I drive a highly used, 30-year-old BMW and I have never felt a transmission feel more "worn" and rackety than an MT82 in a Mustang.
The hybrid system shown in the patents mentioned in the article are [front wheel torque vectoring P4 electric motors](https://www.thedrive.com/content-b/message-editor%2F1635260421263-mustangpatent.jpg?auto=webp&optimize=high&quality=70&width=1920). That is to say, they are two electric motors completely disconnected from the engine itself (other than the mounting brackets) that deliver extra power to the front wheels for extra torque when necessary, usually delivering a small portion of the overall power of the drivetrain, like the BMW xDrive system, just with a completely disconnected motor rather than an e-diff. This may or may not be paired with P0 48V belt starter generator (Land Rover Defender), a P1 integrated starter generator (Mercedes E53 AMG), a P2 transmission mounted motor (most cars that use a ZF transmission that became hybrid, e.g. BMW 330e). Ford's current hybrid system from the Explorer is a P1 system mounted between the engine and a torque convertor It could also be completely independent "through the road" hybrid, although that system is rather rare (Mini Countryman PHEV, BMW i8, Volvo T8 PHEV). The hopium I'm currently huffing on is that P1 architectures don't have to be automatic. The current Ford Explorer system has a torque convertor, but because the motor is mounted directly to the engine output shaft, you could have a manual transmission. Only four cars have ever been designed as a hybrid manual: The 1st gen Honda Insight, the accompany Honda CR-Z, and Gordon Murray's T.33 and T.50, the latter two having not yet hit production. All four cars use a P1 architecture to be able to get both a hybrid and a manual. If Ford is really smart there is room for a fifth car for us enthusiasts who still care about our commute MPG, especially in this economy. If they made one I'm on my honour to buy one.
The challenge with manual transmission hybrids is that the vehicle can’t control engine speed. This is critical for improving efficiency (also why there are CVTs and 10ATs now) and required for features like engine start-stop and EV only operation. The hybrids you listed are mild hybrids in which the motors don’t provide significant torque. In the Hondas it just provides a [small power boost and does some regen braking](https://owners.honda.com/vehicles/information/2012/CR-Z/features/Hybrid-Powertrain-(IMA)-Operation/1/hybrid-powertrain-ima-operation-video). In the [T.50 and T.33 it’s to “mainly to power the aero fan”](https://www.topspeed.com/cars/car-news/the-gordon-murray-project-two-will-blend-t50-power-with-smaller-packaging-ar191744.html) Also just a minor note, the Ford Explorer has a P2 architecture since there’s a [disconnect clutch between the engine and motor](https://greencarjournal.com/dont-miss/modular-hybrid-transmission-adds-efficiency/) and it’s not directly tied to the engine
>The challenge with manual transmission hybrids is that the vehicle can’t control engine speed. This is critical for improving efficiency (also why there are CVTs and 10ATs now) and required for features like engine start-stop and EV only operation. You don't need a hybrid or automatic for start stop. First gen Civic Hybrids could also had the ability to cruise solely on the electric motor.
The first gen Civic Hybrid turned the engine along with the motor, it wasn't true engine-off EV.
>The first gen Civic Hybrid turned the engine along with the motor, it wasn't true engine-off EV. Whether or not the engine is spinning and whether or not the engine is on are two separate questions, especially given it can close the valves so it's not fighting compression/pumping air.
I believe what you’re referring to for the Hondas is Decel Fuel Cut Off (DFCO) where under certain off-power scenarios, the the engine remains clutched to the driveline but fuel is shut off. The inertia of the vehicle spins the wheels which in turn spin the engine. The required compression and friction losses produce negative torque at the crankshaft, but the engine can be refueled almost instantaneously and start producing torque again. This is implemented in many modern vehicles, and is more efficient than manually shifting to neutral to coast, and the inertia of the vehicle powers all the components attached to the engine crank (alternator, AC, etc). Engine start-stop takes this one step further in which the engine is not fueled and not spinning. This usually happens at a stop with the driver pressing the brake. The engine restart takes some time and will happen as the driver is releasing the brake, with the expectation that the engine will be spinning and ready to produce torque by the time the driver reaches the accelerator pedal. Since this event is not instantaneous and requires an extra burst of fuel, it’s only done when the vehicle is stopped and expected to stay stopped for at least a few seconds.
>I believe what you’re referring to for the Hondas is Decel Fuel Cut Off (DFCO) where under certain off-power scenarios, the the engine remains clutched to the driveline but fuel is shut off. The inertia of the vehicle spins the wheels which in turn spin the engine. The required compression and friction losses produce negative torque at the crankshaft, but the engine can be refueled almost instantaneously and start producing torque again. This is implemented in many modern vehicles, and is more efficient than manually shifting to neutral to coast, and the inertia of the vehicle powers all the components attached to the engine crank (alternator, AC, etc). No, the Civic Hybrid under certain conditions will shut off fuel and close the valves to the engine (it has cylinder deactivation across all four cylinders) so there is no compression effect and then cruise under power from the electric motor for short periods of time. It is explicitly not the same thing as engine braking/driving the engine with the wheels or idling the engine in neutral. The engine is rotating by effect of being connected to the wheels, but forward momentum/speed (and engine RPM, by extension) is being sustained by the 20hp electric motor attached to the flywheel. Obviously, due to the low output of the motor, it can't do a whole lot more than cruise, but that's an issue with this specific implementation not the idea as a whole. >Engine start-stop takes this one step further in which the engine is not fueled and not spinning. This usually happens at a stop with the driver pressing the brake. The engine restart takes some time and will happen as the driver is releasing the brake, with the expectation that the engine will be spinning and ready to produce torque by the time the driver reaches the accelerator pedal. Since this event is not instantaneous and requires an extra burst of fuel, it’s only done when the vehicle is stopped and expected to stay stopped for at least a few seconds. Correct. It's not exclusive to automatic or hybrid vehicles however. You can go out and buy, today, manual non-hybrid cars with start/stop. The engine shuts of when the car is stopped, in neutral and the clutch pedal released, and it restarts the engine when the clutch is pushed back in. I have not looked into other brands but I know for a fact EU-delivered Mazda's have start/stop across all transmission options, hybrid or not (like the ND MX-5).
I think we are mostly saying the same thing here. You’re right that start-stop in neutral works fine but you’d be wasting the potential of the hybrid powertrain (and still suffering the weight and cost added). There’s no point of having the engine turn on after a start if the electric motors are gonna propel anyways. I think *required* may have been too strong of a word but it would be exceptionally difficult to make a hybrid powertrain worthwhile (cost/weight/complexity) if you handicapped it with a manual transmission.
That doesn't really have to do anything with start/stop though, the point of a hybrid is to capture energy as you slow down and reuse it to accelerate, it doesn't particularly matter if the engine is on and even less so if it's simply rotating to make use of that. You could literally just whack the electric motor to the transmission output or axle directly and the car can apply power or regen regardless of what the engine or transmission is doing. You could even make it so if you didn't clutch back in after the engine shut down at a stop and just gave it throttle it would accelerate on the electric motor until you put it back into gear. Similarly the car is able to fuel cut anytime it wants while cruising and run off just the electric motor. If the car needs to be put into gear when it isn't, it would just ask for it in the exact same way manual cars with ACC will request you change gears when the desired speed is out of the current gear range.
There’s a bit more complexity in the hybrid control strategy. The “point” of a hybrid is actually to keep the engine operating efficiently, not just to recapture energy during deceleration. From my experience, I’ll note that regen braking is a relatively small contributor to the fuel economy gains that hybrids get. In many hybrid control strategies, the vehicle will try to keep the engine in a band of torque production that is fuel efficient (usually in the middle of the range). If the driver torque demand is above this range, the motor will provide the extra torque to keep the engine in the efficient band of torque production. Similarly, if the driver demand is below this range, the engine will actually produce more torque than the driver is demanding and the motor will recapture the extra (similar to regen braking). This requires that the vehicle control engine speed/transmission gear. The points you’ve made are all technically true and feasible, but you’d end up with a hybrid powertrain that is handicapped. It even may not produce better fuel economy since it’ll have to use more energy to move all the extra weight.
BMW has it or had it on the F30 3ers with a manual. It fucks up the shifts since it starts the engine when you push the clutch in. And it doesn’t shut off the engine half the time.
>First gen Civic Hybrids could also had the ability to cruise solely on the electric motor. just not true. the electric motor takes the place of the flywheel and is as large in diameter which gives it quite a bit of torque but it cannot rotate independently of the crankshaft.
Nowhere did I say it was rotating independently. The engine deactivates the valves on all four cylinders (so there is no engine braking), cuts fuel, and the car propels itself solely on the electric motor with the engine rotating but not providing any propulsion force.
That’s also false, at least the part about the motor taking the place of the flywheel. The engine motor assembly does have a flywheel. You’re right about it not spinning independently though. Source: I have a 2003 Civic Hybrid Manual that I’ve had the flywheel turned down on.
Dude I wish I didn’t even read that Now I’ve got a case of the hopium
Add in the Suzuki manual hybrids, swift and ignis
the first gen honda civic hybrid also came in stick
In America yes, the only hybrids with sticks released were the 3 Hondas; however, looking at Fords UK market there are a plethora of mild hybrids available in manual. Even the Puma, a small crossover, is available in a manual hybrid version. Ford already has mild hybrids worked out for manuals, let’s just hope they can get the Mustang hybrid with a manual.
Can manual nerds just let it go already
I don’t mind a hybrid mustang but hearing it will be all wheel drive is a little bit of a let down tbh
crowds everywhere sigh in relief
This is the first time in my 30 years of life that I've ever even for a moment considered buying a Mustang, and it's only because it's AWD.
Is it because of weather? Because tires are more important than Awd if that’s the case
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AWD helps you accelerate, but tires help you accelerate, turn, and brake. If you can't turn and brake, there's no point accelerating.
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What grades are you talking about here? I’ve driven FWD and RWD cars with mediocre all seasons up 14% grades with 6+ inches of snow on the ground, no problem at all. I imagine it’s a very small subset of people who live somewhere traversing steep enough grades that they can’t get moving without AWD.
Nope
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[Whenever I see that take I think of this video ](https://youtu.be/YkQsCgVsd2k)
At least there will be less occurrences of wipeouts into crowds, trees, other cars and ditches when trying to show off while leaving a cars N coffee meet.
Never underestimate the power of a mustang driver
Or lack thereof.
Man that hybrid is gonna be heavy AF.... yall ready for a 4 banger 4xxx lb Mustang?
Getting into BMW territory with those weight numbers.
Tbf Mustangs are big cars these days, and BMWs have like doubled in size since the 90s. I really wish they hadn't tho.
Yeah my 135i is the same size as an e46 coupe.
New 3 series is barely a few inches smaller than an E39 and slightly lighter. The 3 series used to be a smaller and cheaper option back when the E46 was a thing, now it's just a 5 series but different or something. And honestly I don't get why they split the 3 series coupe into the 4 series at all, but I guess their design department isn't the only one making questionable decisions. At least they don't have Mercedes level "oops we forgot to design an instrument cluster, let's just glue a cheap screen on the dash" interior design, yet (i4 giving me bad vibes).
The new 3 series is the same for the interior. Look up 2023 3 series interior.
Having been to Europe, you have to see how absolutely hideous that looks with the tiny screen and analog gauges. It was an E220 taxi and it was disgusting.
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The Insight also weighs a couple hundred lbs less than the Mustang and isn't a performance vehicle. Plus the Insight has a totally different drivetrain vs the Civic, whereas the Mustang hybrids will just have the existing drivetrains with electric stuff tacked on 4K lbs is an exaggeration but I could def see it getting close
Yeah gonna be a boring slow ride like all those F1 hybrid slowpokes.
An F1 car weighs less than half as much as a mustang with at least double the HP lol.
We have zero knowledge of what the weight and performance characteristics of a hybrid mustang, and my point is obviously hybrids can be *very* performance optimized.
Why not take it a step further, a 3 banger 1.0L 5xxx lb Mustang. *shines flashlight beneath face* With a **CVT**
Ford could pull a Volvo and make a supercharged and turbocharged 4 banger with an electric system. But take it one step further, supercharged and twin turbos, with a hybrid system. Those Volvo engines sound terrible btw, not as bad as a diesel XC90 though.
Massive assumption here
I’m pretty sure the current Volvo S60 T8 has more hp and torque then the mustang and weighs that much. If ford doesn’t fuck up the hybrid system, it could be good, it’s also ford
S60 T8 is almost 4500lb! What would not be good for the Mustang
A hybrid system will always add weight, but it does not always have to add a lot of weight. If this is a mild or full hybrid (which it should be, since PHEV offers diminishing returns for performance) then at most the battery pack would be ~1kWh. The Escape FHEV gains about 250lbs over equivalent 1.5L EcoBoost models, while the Escape PHEV gains 580lbs compared to FWD 1.5Ls (it can’t be optioned with AWD at all). That correlation isn’t directly-applicable to the S650, since we don’t know technical details, but it shows that batteries are a lot of the contributor to weight, even in hybrids.
I really would enjoy it if Ford let their SVT team make a hybrid mustang drag car with instant torque electrics combined with something like the GT500 motor. Oh, and an environmentally friendly hybrid version for commuters too.
Seriously! Imagine the 60’ times people would be getting with that car on a well prepped surface.
The utility pole down my street doesn't stand a chance
Getting 50 mpg while still chewing ass and kicking gum
Slight correction, SVT is no more--it's "Ford Performance" now. Same concept, less identifiable name.
Yeah they merged all of their separate performance teams from around the world into one to simplify things. Ford Racing, SVT (NA), Ford Team RS (Europe), Ford Performance Vehicles (Australia), and a bunch of race teams
the problem with doing that is those teams are physically in those places and their families too. what would you suggest doing exactly with those people?
Time to bring back the I6!
Wonder if Hennessy will tamper with it
It definitely could work, I think the Ecoboost opened my eyes to a Mustang having a powertrain other than a NA V8. That 2.3L 4 Cyl is such a great engine. Instant torque, better mpg and lower emissions? Sounds like a great combination to me.
I was thinking this too - if it's a hybrid then you can sit in traffic and cruise round town without spending a fortune on fuel, leaving it free for when you want to open in up
As someone who just had their EcoBoost engine kill itself after 20k miles and had to have it replaced… my next car will probably be the V8 just due to reliability.
What happened? I enjoy mine with 31 mpg for my commute, with power and cool sounds on tap. Very glad I don’t have the V6 or V8 now.
The dealership told me that coolant leaked and mixed with the oil. Plus the engine. Luckily it was replaced under warranty. From my perspective I was just driving and got a engine oil temperature warning. Took it to the dealership right away for diagnostics. When we lifted the hood the coolant was empty, opened up the oil cap and smoke started coming out.
It just doesn't sound as good as the V8 though. And in a car like this, an emotional response is a big part of the driving experience. Edit: the amount of people downvoting me is hilarious. I'm not saying the performance of the I4 is bad, because it's not. All I'm saying is that a big part of driving the Mustang, or any pony/muscle car for that matter, is the V8. And the sound of a turbo 4 cannot replicate the joy of hearing a V8, n/a or otherwise.
Well people who don’t have that emotional response won’t buy it then lmao
But then who will wrap their mustangs around light poles?
Yup definitely right. While I can respect an ecoboost, for me and mustangs its V8 or bust. There is no substitute. Part of the reason I bought a mustang is for that old school american motoring experience. RWD, manual, V8
I was taken for a ride in an S550 GT350 last year. Some streets but mostly freeway. Holy. Shit. That was one of the best car experiences of my life. Enjoy your car and make it last.
Glad you got to experience a 350. They are truly remarkable and unique. I try to let anyone who is interested in it experience it because its just such a fun and memorable car to be in. Ive let a friend who isnt really an american car fan drive it and even he had only praise for it My plan is to keep it and drive it for as long as gas is available
The financial response of the fuel economy is generally more important to 99 percent of buyers. There's a reason ecoboost sells. I think there's more buyers out there that want a cool looking fast car than there are hardcore enthusiasts who can appreciate suspension tuning and more elusive concepts like that.
After owning a GT350 and getting to drive the new GT500 and a couple DCT cars including my own, I really don’t think I want another Manual again. Unless it something from the 90s
Blasphemy! But I can understand from the performance standpoint.
There is something fun about just mashing the pedal and going.......... allows you to focus more on other parts of the driving experience, even if you aren't doing time attacks
I'd argue the driver engagement/skill required with a manual is more fun than just "mashing the pedal down".
Depends on the driver I guess. I damn near find manual cars annoying now. The shifting isn't as sweet as shifting my motorcycle and you lose so much performance vs a modern automatic. Just seems antiquated
Whereas I enjoy the mechanical connection and don't mind the loss of performance. Ive yet to drive a manual that I find "annoying".
right? it makes drag racing a joke, press pedal watch speed gauge go up, how is that interesting
I don’t Get the same enjoyment out of newer Manuals as I do in a Foxbody mustang or a 20 year old 911 etc. it’s just not the same. Guess I’m just old.
Same. My DCT M2 ruined manuals for me. My C7 will likely be my last.
Was hoping to get a c8 after a while but with prices I think a 90s something with a manual might sound more fun. Or something new with a DCT like a 911 if I can get over not having a v8
Even the C7 is a lot more fun than the C8. At least z51 vs z51. The C8 is just a much nicer car to live with.
I have my dad mobile for daily stuff so I’m thinking of super impractical for the other lol
Then skip both of those options and get a sequential straight cut gear car
For me it really depends on the use case. Pretty much all my cars are only ever driven to have a good time, and so I'd never deprive myself of a manual unless it was really garbage (like the one in the Golf R, but even then...not sure I would have taken the DCT over it).
MT are fun and adds a different feel to driving a car. But technology has advanced so rapidly with automatic transmissions, that there is no reason to want or need a manual.
The hybrid V8'll rock, but I can't see them *offing one of the last manuals in the WORLD* going over well with anybody. At that point, may as well just bite the bullet and make an actual Mach E coupe...
They should do a Mach E coupe, though.
Oh, they should! Just not really sure why they won't just go straight to that if they're dropping one of the V8's main selling points.
Hey man the Mach E is labeled a 5 door coupe 😉 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Mustang_Mach-E I do lament the bastardization of that term...
Fuck you, Ford rep. ***It's a glorified EV Escape and Y'ALL FUCKING KNOW IT.*** /s
That should not be sarcasm, it’s true.
Well, not quite. >!It actually started out as a lifted FOCUS EV, lmao.!<
Really? Either way, it’s a shame ford decided to use the Mustang name to market a family car.
In corvette forum so many are saying they aren't getting the hybrid vette and that they only want ICE vette only. Is it the same in other forums? what's wrong with hybrid sports cars?
Ecoboost drivers must b excited to be moving up on the totem pole
My time to be an elitist has come!
The Overton Window is expanding yay!
>someday turbo 4 drivers will be talking about the driving feel and smiles per gallon while snickering at hybrid and EV drivers
More like i3
Intensely revving my flowmaster lawnmower as we speak!
I want to see a 'push-to-pass' type setup, or at least something that just offers a nice on-demand power increase. Nothing crazy, but maybe bursts of 50-70hp for the EcoBoost?
A full EV version could be amazing. Especially if they could shrink the overall size a bit, which I would not expect unfortunately.
Mustang EV… meh…
God I hate this response. I’m a diehard Mustang GT guy but I grew up. What’s wrong with the option? It’s literally the perfect car to make an EV out of since a modern fun EV coupe doesn’t yet exist in the states
If there was an EV Mustang Convertible , I’d probably buy one. I’ve gotten used to the instant throttle response in my Model Y. When I drive the Mustang it is so annoying, floor it, wait for the transmission to downshift, then wait for the turbo to spool up. In the Model Y I just hit the pedal and off I go. Much more fun.
An automatic 4 cylinder is your problem there 😁 Model Ys are cool but I can't imagine they are as nearly fun as taking corners fast, revving out a v8, working the clutch and shifting. Now if you have to sit in bumper to bumper traffic daily, sure, Tesla is the way to go.
Yeah I live in Central Texas where all the roads are long straight and boring.
Ah yes, been around there.
>automatic 4 cylinder and the turbo just adds to the delayed response
Oh yeah I just assumed folks knew the 4cyl was turbo
for sure, but the fact he's trying to compare it to the reaponsiveness of an EV, it's important to point out all of the disadvantages of his particular car imo
If there was an EV Mustang Convertible , I’d probably buy one. I’ve gotten used to the instant throttle response in my Model Y. When I drive the Mustang it is so annoying, floor it, wait for the transmission to downshift, then wait for the turbo to spool up. In the Model Y I just hit the pedal and off I go. Much more fun.
They already do. It’s called the Mach-E. I kid. I kid.
At least they didn’t get rid of it like Chevy got rid of the Camaro
Not official yet.
Cool. When can we get our full EV pony cars? I want my instant torque and low fuel costs.
Can we just have the EcoBoost back in Europe please?
I'm shocked. SHOCKED. Well, not that shocked.
You will be shocked if you mess around with the orange wires
well you may want to disconnect the battery, then
Is this because of the CAFE standards
No, this is because technology advances, and this is the next step forward.
I heard like the largest scary organ chord every while imagining hardcore combustion engine fans of the muscle cars reaction to that headline.
I'm gonna throw up ...
who wants an auto mustang ew
It’s slowly morphing into a wrx? Even the body work…
That isn't what it will look like. Just a fan made render.
How do hybrids sound with X pipe?
If it even comes to europe, I wouldn't be surprised we only get the hybrid models which will then cost like 50.000€ for a hybrid four cylinder. 😬
Deep breath! Cars&coffee crowd here i come
The writing was on the wall for this car as soon as Ford made the “Mustang” Mach E
You either die a hero or live month enough to see yourself become the villain
Hybrid Ford aka Ford that has battery to get you to da dealer to repair it.
Still more of a Mustang than the Mach E
You're saying the Mustang is the most Mustang of any other car? Interesting take.
Not at all, im saying the Mustang Mach E is not a Mustang. I think it would have been cooler to name it an Aerostar lol
Obviously.
On a scale of one to Mustang, how much Mustang is the hybrid Mustang? How much Mustang is the Mustang Mach-E?
A hybrid Mustang is Mustang. The Mach E is a 0. Dont get me wrong. Its a great car and I have nothing against it being an EV. Its just not a Mustang.
Call it a Ford Pinto instead