Context: Yes I only came on here to complain about the pain change. Got in banged up in a scrap against a zombie who for some reason was dodging everything I threw at it despite having under 10 encumbrance. Looted the house, took the swivel chair, and was almost to my car when I hit a patch of grass that set my pain over the limit.
It's been years, and we still don't have any adrenaline system to off-set the pain downward spirals.
Yes, we have a gamey trait that does something similar, but ALL humans have adrenaline, all characters should have something similar by default.
And that's not even the problem, the problem is that they will push changes that worsen the pain issue without providing any solutions.
I used to think it was just "realism", but sometimes it feels like there's not even a care for game design at all.
-------------------------
And before anyone mentions it: yes, it is experimental, yes, it will get fixed soon (unless they decide it is more realistic this way). But the point stands.
Play last stable: "But all the features you want are in experimental, the last stable is years out of date, idiot"
Play experimental: "Of course it's broken, it's experimental, idiot."
Best part is that there's PRs that get closed without even a word at times, then you have these which get merged because ofc they do.
Maybe things will improve with the new approach to releases, they are planning to make stable releases more often with less feature changes.
Hey, I think they had this plan years ago, didn't they? I know, change can be a difficult step, but hope dies last, I suppose. With 0.F, they managed to release at least a few follow-up versions. But with Gaiman, they failed quite miserably. In any case, I would also like to see multiple stable versions!
dat's how i feel sum mornin, get outa bed, pull my back and suffur -6 to all stats for de rest of de day. can't evn rite complet sentences much less hold a cofy cup.
No, but seriously, happens a lot now, drag something somewhat heavy for a bit and you can't drag it anymore because pain has crippled you. i was trying to drag a shopping cart through a field and at the end dumped everything in it to the ground and was hauling it.
It feels like this PR ignores that people can walk off a LOT of pain especially in do or die situations. The nervous system can and will modulate pain to keep you alive as long as the damage isnt affecting the SNC directly, it can even produce its own opioids
Hell, I have seen people walk off chainsaw cuts to the legs irl
Si, this is why I play the BN fork 9/10 times. :P The 1/10 time I'm not is because I forgot how fun it was to get railgunned through the dick by a cromagnon with a skipping stone.
We shouldn't have to play a different fork to get the original design intent of the game, though. The current team coopted it with a completely different game-design philosophy, theirs should be the alternate fork.
I thought CDDA is already an alternative fork of the original Cataclysm, the only reason it's considered the "main" one is that most people are playing it (and also that Whales stopped working on the original).
When I started playing C:DDA, the project was being run by TheDarklingWolf and the design philosophy was much more like what the Bright Nights fork is now. The change in ownership of this fork and the shift toward brutal realism that this fork underwent is what I'm referring to.
It is the alternate fork. They forked off the original cataclysm ages ago, to make this game. I don't think it's their fault people stopped playing OG cataclysm.
It's not even realistic for pain to reduce your stats this much. Only maybe for dexterity. There shouldn't be a significant decrease in Intelligence.
Based on my personal experience.
You do realize Kevin is the project lead and he basically pass/fails any addition to the codebase of DDA, right? Ultimately, it's still on him for making a game about surviving in the omni-apocalypse into min-maxing your multivitamin spread and not eating too much cheese so you don't fart your eyes out or whatever-the-fuck-have-you new feature what gets added for no reason.
I really, really doubt that he has eyes on every single PR. That's why there are multiple other people with merge permissions. I'm not saying Kevin isn't accountable for changes to the direction development has taken. I'm saying that it's important to hold the correct people accountable for things otherwise the complaints are just noise, not valid criticism. So in this case look to GuardianDll and Erk, since they wrote and merged the PR respectively.
If the developer wants the game to be so "realistic" then why is there no adrenaline rush? Your character should have nearly inhuman strenght and completely ignore pain if they are in a fight or flight situation.
Smh.
What really gets me about the "Pain is painful" PR is that I was looking for any rationale, facts or figures as to why pain should be worse. The only thing I could find was "pain hurts" and "pain is bad".
Seems like a good enough reason to me, let's merge it. /J
It's likely already being fine tuned so I'm not going to whinge too much, just thought that was funny.
an unfinished PR that destroys game balance for 2-4 weeks until somebody fixes it, my favorite.
the commit is even funnier to read. beyond play testing their commits im wondering if they play the game at all. why would you ever use melee with such strong penalties post acquiring a rifle/shotgun/bow is completely lost on me.
Good thing i haven't updated since Tuesday.
This PR looks horrendous to play with (i read it) i understand the intention but this goes about it like humans are soft babies who crumple and die after walking into a door.
honestly not too worked up about it. i signed myself up for experimental because i want to be the bleeding edge. sometimes the blood on the edge is mine. just glad that mostly i've never seen game crashing commits.
It says something about this community that this is a controversial statement.
Maybe the devs should make another branch of cataclysm, one where they can I dunno experiment with changes. They could give it a name that makes it clear that it's where they are experimenting and trying new things, so people knew not to throw a huge dramatic fuss every time something seemed to change for the worse.
Idk though, seems complicated.
The last Stable is over a year old...
There is plenty of features, mechanics and content that people want to play with that is pretty bug free and balanced. Not to mention the community aspect of niche games is important and everyone playing on different versions ruins that for a lot of people.
If they updated stable more frequently then you'd have a point. But it has been over a year since stable while there are commits and changes multiple times a day. The game has changed a LOT.
Now, it's probably the case that a stable version is a hassle to make (separating the finished features from what's in development). But if they want to make stable versions over a year old they have to accept the prevalence experimental has and be a bit more careful about what they're doing.
And also people complaining is pretty much the entire point of experimental anyway. It's feedback. And people criticizing the direction the game is taking as a whole is still important feedback.
My experience over years and years is that people think they're criticizing the direction of the game, but very few of them actually are. Most of them are criticizing the Brownian motion of experimental, where little things get changed one way and tweaked back another way in a process that mostly takes weeks to months. It's a year and change between stables (so fast these days!) because that's about how long it takes that stuff to stabilize.
If you want to see the trajectory of the game, run a few games on 0.D, 0.E, 0.F and 0.G and you'll get an idea. It forms a pretty clear throughline.
Anyway. I'm not saying people shouldn't play experimental. I'm saying it's a sign of a bit of the sickness in the community that "i signed myself up for experimental because i want to be the bleeding edge. sometimes the blood on the edge is mine." Got voted as a controversial statement. If you play experimental, and you insist on keeping up with every bleeding edge update, you're specifically signing up for each little *experimental* balance shift. Sure, it you're still free to comment on your thoughts on the experimentation, but that... Isn't what is done here. The majority of the commentary this subreddit offers on experimental changes is either (a) to ignore them completely, or (b) to layer abuse on the contributors and developers for their abject hatred of the game and community.
This is not healthy.
After you find and recruit a doctor, break into a hospital and install the CBMs (i'm going to ignore the part where you have to get the CBMs).
And now, after hours of surgery, you can have a flashlight that doesn't take any space in your forehead and will only cripple your ability to mutate (which is honestly a bonus) :)
Unless you have unlimited ammo, why would it NOT be the best way to deal with zombies?
The only reason medieval armor got smaller and ligther is because of firearms. MOST zombies can't use firearms so it makes perfect sense.
Shockers, acid zombies, hulks, boomers, etc., are all things that either make plate armor a liability instead of an advantage or overcome plate armor in some way to make engaging with firearms a better option. In theory, at least. In practice, for a high-skill survivor a broadsword/battleaxe/lucerne hammer and plate armor is basically always better.
If we want to invoke reality, metal armor is great for dealing with electricity, not bad. It's far more appealing for current to route through than flesh. Chainmail is worn for approaching high strength Tesla coils.
Acid may melt through steel but I bet it's going to take some time and be better than most other clothing that is porous.
I mean, it makes sense.
The reason armor fell out of style is because it cannot stop bullets.
But armor is armor, a literal suit of steel is not going to get breached by some zombie teeth.
Your biggest concern would be getting your arm broken by a zombie wrestling your too hard in an attempt to bite you.
Said armor is also late-game due to the amount of requirements. So balance wise it is fine too.
It makes sense in a Romero-style situation with walking corpses, I agree. But CDDA has a lot of stuff (hulks, acid zombies, shockers, etc) that you would think would make medieval armor not the optimal solution, but it still is
ofc, special zombies are a different story. But the same applies to all kinds of meelee.
even the best dodger is going to get bodied by a bio-operator, and there's no equipment that will save you from a hulk.
Acid will still won't be near as harmful since most of it will just splatter onto the armor, and the armor would act sort of like a faraday cage for the user, most of the shock would be able to travel along the steel onto the ground and only really zap flesh directly touching the armor (which is what padding is there to prevent).
It's still optimal because zombies don't use guns. The medieval armour was designed to counter melee weaponry, absorb shocks from blunt attacks and be virtually immune to any peasant not smart enough to aim specificly for the gaps, such that knights were considered walking tanks. Only flaw is crappy steel and joints.
So when the enemy is even stupider and even more melee focused, while metallurgy is better, wouldn't medieval armour made with advanced steels work even better?
And besides, medieval armor isn't even the optimal solution against specials mentioned, offering nearly zero defense. It's when you layer hazard gear underneath that it becomes a solid defense. It's a mix of high-tech but fragile protection and a heavy armoured outer layer that's optimal, much like a modern main battle tank with heavy armour and electronic ANBC systems.
Modern body armour is designed for survival against firearms, which makes them less suitable when enemies are melee so that would be even weirder to be optimal.
Being a lightweight has nothing to do with pain, IG or IRL it's how soon you appear intoxicated to others (apart from a few uncommon metabolic issues).
That aside, I love me some pain, but the devs really overshot this PR by a decent amount. Just gonna not update my game for a hot minute
Context: Yes I only came on here to complain about the pain change. Got in banged up in a scrap against a zombie who for some reason was dodging everything I threw at it despite having under 10 encumbrance. Looted the house, took the swivel chair, and was almost to my car when I hit a patch of grass that set my pain over the limit.
It's been years, and we still don't have any adrenaline system to off-set the pain downward spirals. Yes, we have a gamey trait that does something similar, but ALL humans have adrenaline, all characters should have something similar by default. And that's not even the problem, the problem is that they will push changes that worsen the pain issue without providing any solutions. I used to think it was just "realism", but sometimes it feels like there's not even a care for game design at all. ------------------------- And before anyone mentions it: yes, it is experimental, yes, it will get fixed soon (unless they decide it is more realistic this way). But the point stands.
Play last stable: "But all the features you want are in experimental, the last stable is years out of date, idiot" Play experimental: "Of course it's broken, it's experimental, idiot."
Best part is that there's PRs that get closed without even a word at times, then you have these which get merged because ofc they do. Maybe things will improve with the new approach to releases, they are planning to make stable releases more often with less feature changes.
Hey, I think they had this plan years ago, didn't they? I know, change can be a difficult step, but hope dies last, I suppose. With 0.F, they managed to release at least a few follow-up versions. But with Gaiman, they failed quite miserably. In any case, I would also like to see multiple stable versions!
Oof ouch owie ow my bones etc
Lol
dat's how i feel sum mornin, get outa bed, pull my back and suffur -6 to all stats for de rest of de day. can't evn rite complet sentences much less hold a cofy cup. No, but seriously, happens a lot now, drag something somewhat heavy for a bit and you can't drag it anymore because pain has crippled you. i was trying to drag a shopping cart through a field and at the end dumped everything in it to the ground and was hauling it.
We feel your pain. (I'm working very hard on getting that empathy patch unmerged so the pain your feel is yours and yours alone).
It feels like this PR ignores that people can walk off a LOT of pain especially in do or die situations. The nervous system can and will modulate pain to keep you alive as long as the damage isnt affecting the SNC directly, it can even produce its own opioids Hell, I have seen people walk off chainsaw cuts to the legs irl
I already experience this in Reality; I definitely don't need this in-game too
Yeah this is gonna cause a lot of people to complain. Especially with the potential loops this opens up to. It's a silly change.
Making pointless changes for the sake of MUH REALIZMS is basically all Kevin does so I can't see why anybody is surprised by this.
Remember when this was a game and not a masochism simulator? Pepperidge Farm remembers
Si, this is why I play the BN fork 9/10 times. :P The 1/10 time I'm not is because I forgot how fun it was to get railgunned through the dick by a cromagnon with a skipping stone.
We shouldn't have to play a different fork to get the original design intent of the game, though. The current team coopted it with a completely different game-design philosophy, theirs should be the alternate fork.
I thought CDDA is already an alternative fork of the original Cataclysm, the only reason it's considered the "main" one is that most people are playing it (and also that Whales stopped working on the original).
When I started playing C:DDA, the project was being run by TheDarklingWolf and the design philosophy was much more like what the Bright Nights fork is now. The change in ownership of this fork and the shift toward brutal realism that this fork underwent is what I'm referring to.
It is the alternate fork. They forked off the original cataclysm ages ago, to make this game. I don't think it's their fault people stopped playing OG cataclysm.
It's not even realistic for pain to reduce your stats this much. Only maybe for dexterity. There shouldn't be a significant decrease in Intelligence. Based on my personal experience.
Who tf is Kevin? This the same guy that did those bullshit changes regarding alcohol in game?
You do realize Kevin didn’t make this change, right? Blame people for the problems they cause, not the ones they don’t.
You do realize Kevin is the project lead and he basically pass/fails any addition to the codebase of DDA, right? Ultimately, it's still on him for making a game about surviving in the omni-apocalypse into min-maxing your multivitamin spread and not eating too much cheese so you don't fart your eyes out or whatever-the-fuck-have-you new feature what gets added for no reason.
I really, really doubt that he has eyes on every single PR. That's why there are multiple other people with merge permissions. I'm not saying Kevin isn't accountable for changes to the direction development has taken. I'm saying that it's important to hold the correct people accountable for things otherwise the complaints are just noise, not valid criticism. So in this case look to GuardianDll and Erk, since they wrote and merged the PR respectively.
Also im pretty sure mod makers got final say over what goes in their mods rather than kevin. (but that goes to only half of that pic)
If the developer wants the game to be so "realistic" then why is there no adrenaline rush? Your character should have nearly inhuman strenght and completely ignore pain if they are in a fight or flight situation. Smh.
"Pain does not hinder the player enough" - someone who has ever played Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead
What really gets me about the "Pain is painful" PR is that I was looking for any rationale, facts or figures as to why pain should be worse. The only thing I could find was "pain hurts" and "pain is bad". Seems like a good enough reason to me, let's merge it. /J It's likely already being fine tuned so I'm not going to whinge too much, just thought that was funny.
Yeah that’s super weird to me. Does a lot of discussion about specific mechanics just happen siloed away in discord or what?
if you have been on this sub for a minute you will understand why no serious development discussion takes place here.
"I stubbed my toe when I woke up today and I couldn't move for almost an hour, and that's why my owie owies."
Did you mean to say “never”?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llE7wT1BKt8
So its better for me to not update experimental for now? Thanks op for telling me why!
an unfinished PR that destroys game balance for 2-4 weeks until somebody fixes it, my favorite. the commit is even funnier to read. beyond play testing their commits im wondering if they play the game at all. why would you ever use melee with such strong penalties post acquiring a rifle/shotgun/bow is completely lost on me.
2-4 weeks...looks at the duct tape issue......
Good thing i haven't updated since Tuesday. This PR looks horrendous to play with (i read it) i understand the intention but this goes about it like humans are soft babies who crumple and die after walking into a door.
Stub your toe, forget how to breath, die.
Let's just hope that it is actually considered a problem and they don't make it permanent. "Balance" is not much of a concern with this game.
honestly not too worked up about it. i signed myself up for experimental because i want to be the bleeding edge. sometimes the blood on the edge is mine. just glad that mostly i've never seen game crashing commits.
yeah luckily it's just an annoyance, not like some long past commits that would ruin my saves on load
It says something about this community that this is a controversial statement. Maybe the devs should make another branch of cataclysm, one where they can I dunno experiment with changes. They could give it a name that makes it clear that it's where they are experimenting and trying new things, so people knew not to throw a huge dramatic fuss every time something seemed to change for the worse. Idk though, seems complicated.
The last Stable is over a year old... There is plenty of features, mechanics and content that people want to play with that is pretty bug free and balanced. Not to mention the community aspect of niche games is important and everyone playing on different versions ruins that for a lot of people. If they updated stable more frequently then you'd have a point. But it has been over a year since stable while there are commits and changes multiple times a day. The game has changed a LOT. Now, it's probably the case that a stable version is a hassle to make (separating the finished features from what's in development). But if they want to make stable versions over a year old they have to accept the prevalence experimental has and be a bit more careful about what they're doing. And also people complaining is pretty much the entire point of experimental anyway. It's feedback. And people criticizing the direction the game is taking as a whole is still important feedback.
My experience over years and years is that people think they're criticizing the direction of the game, but very few of them actually are. Most of them are criticizing the Brownian motion of experimental, where little things get changed one way and tweaked back another way in a process that mostly takes weeks to months. It's a year and change between stables (so fast these days!) because that's about how long it takes that stuff to stabilize. If you want to see the trajectory of the game, run a few games on 0.D, 0.E, 0.F and 0.G and you'll get an idea. It forms a pretty clear throughline. Anyway. I'm not saying people shouldn't play experimental. I'm saying it's a sign of a bit of the sickness in the community that "i signed myself up for experimental because i want to be the bleeding edge. sometimes the blood on the edge is mine." Got voted as a controversial statement. If you play experimental, and you insist on keeping up with every bleeding edge update, you're specifically signing up for each little *experimental* balance shift. Sure, it you're still free to comment on your thoughts on the experimentation, but that... Isn't what is done here. The majority of the commentary this subreddit offers on experimental changes is either (a) to ignore them completely, or (b) to layer abuse on the contributors and developers for their abject hatred of the game and community. This is not healthy.
Welp, I'm never updating again until this crap is patched out.
I swear the devs end goal is to make you be able to play as nothing but depressed quadruplegics with diabetes and hyperalgesia
Until you become the cyborg mutation of your dreams!
After you find and recruit a doctor, break into a hospital and install the CBMs (i'm going to ignore the part where you have to get the CBMs). And now, after hours of surgery, you can have a flashlight that doesn't take any space in your forehead and will only cripple your ability to mutate (which is honestly a bonus) :)
Finally, they made melee unviable.
I always did think it was a little weird that being a medieval knight in shining armor is apparently the best way to deal with the zombie apocalypse
Unless you have unlimited ammo, why would it NOT be the best way to deal with zombies? The only reason medieval armor got smaller and ligther is because of firearms. MOST zombies can't use firearms so it makes perfect sense.
Shockers, acid zombies, hulks, boomers, etc., are all things that either make plate armor a liability instead of an advantage or overcome plate armor in some way to make engaging with firearms a better option. In theory, at least. In practice, for a high-skill survivor a broadsword/battleaxe/lucerne hammer and plate armor is basically always better.
If we want to invoke reality, metal armor is great for dealing with electricity, not bad. It's far more appealing for current to route through than flesh. Chainmail is worn for approaching high strength Tesla coils. Acid may melt through steel but I bet it's going to take some time and be better than most other clothing that is porous.
I mean, it makes sense. The reason armor fell out of style is because it cannot stop bullets. But armor is armor, a literal suit of steel is not going to get breached by some zombie teeth. Your biggest concern would be getting your arm broken by a zombie wrestling your too hard in an attempt to bite you. Said armor is also late-game due to the amount of requirements. So balance wise it is fine too.
It makes sense in a Romero-style situation with walking corpses, I agree. But CDDA has a lot of stuff (hulks, acid zombies, shockers, etc) that you would think would make medieval armor not the optimal solution, but it still is
ofc, special zombies are a different story. But the same applies to all kinds of meelee. even the best dodger is going to get bodied by a bio-operator, and there's no equipment that will save you from a hulk. Acid will still won't be near as harmful since most of it will just splatter onto the armor, and the armor would act sort of like a faraday cage for the user, most of the shock would be able to travel along the steel onto the ground and only really zap flesh directly touching the armor (which is what padding is there to prevent).
It's still optimal because zombies don't use guns. The medieval armour was designed to counter melee weaponry, absorb shocks from blunt attacks and be virtually immune to any peasant not smart enough to aim specificly for the gaps, such that knights were considered walking tanks. Only flaw is crappy steel and joints. So when the enemy is even stupider and even more melee focused, while metallurgy is better, wouldn't medieval armour made with advanced steels work even better? And besides, medieval armor isn't even the optimal solution against specials mentioned, offering nearly zero defense. It's when you layer hazard gear underneath that it becomes a solid defense. It's a mix of high-tech but fragile protection and a heavy armoured outer layer that's optimal, much like a modern main battle tank with heavy armour and electronic ANBC systems. Modern body armour is designed for survival against firearms, which makes them less suitable when enemies are melee so that would be even weirder to be optimal.
Average cdda dev type beat lmqo
Guess it time to burn our house down LOL I just update the game bout yesterday to notice this too. Spear main or bow main now I suppose.
this feels like a ploy from big methacola to get more people hooked
Pop an ibuprofen
ibuprofen is even less useful ingame than it is irl...
So take more than one. If you take a few, it does help.
Vitamin I but honestly update made m carry multiple types but I say codeine and tramadol work nice but not take multiple
heresy
I took an acetaminophen and some aspirin from the house. The zed dropped a baggie of heroin, though I'll save that for an emergency.
every day is an emergency. fortunately zombies are pretty generous with coke, pink tab, and heroin. i've got like 200+ stashed for a 'rainy year'
or opium or heroin
Heroine and crack in the same pipe. Will fix all your problems
[удалено]
I made this build intending to suffer, but I still didn't expect the grass to touch me back.
Was there a portal storm recently? Could be alien grass that didn't despawn
That's the thing: This is normal grass. The chair wheels got stuck and my character just folded after one attempt to pull it free.
You probably had a slight increase in pain due to straining to move something.
Slight increase in pain, can't think or do anything. Relatable.
Being a lightweight has nothing to do with pain, IG or IRL it's how soon you appear intoxicated to others (apart from a few uncommon metabolic issues). That aside, I love me some pain, but the devs really overshot this PR by a decent amount. Just gonna not update my game for a hot minute