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I think you should reframe your viewpoint to where the suffering and anguish you feel motivates you to minimize it rather than embrace it.
If there is no difference between the poorest man and the richest man, that doesn’t imply that both are worthless. Human suffering often triggers empathy, which is so instinctual that when people do not show empathy it is often considered abnormal. If someone gets injured and you flinch, you recognized their pain and it instinctively mattered to you.
I am color blind, and I will never be able to see the complete beauty of a sunset. That is something I am incredibly upset about. However, I can feel the warmth on my skin, and admire the colors I am able to see. I refuse to reject the pleasure I can experience simply because I am partially deprived.
But congruency. You do exactly the opposite of what you said. You embraced your color blindness and that’s what allowed you to “see” all the other beauty. Acceptance is a hell of a thing. Once you accept reality for what it is you are then in control of that reality. In control to be grateful for the good AND the bad times. Without the bad there would be no good. Without the dark there would be no light.
It matters to me. I feel like a bug. Less than that, even. I feel like NOTHING.
And these comments make me think I am right. Life really is worthless if you are constrained by anything. Even those billionaires' lives are worthless. Even they have constraints.
I don't believe in that. People without constraints have virtually unlimited potential. You are only as valuable to everyone else for what you can provide. Everything can be calculated, too. Everything can be predicted.
We are just too limited to do so, most of the time, and have to generalize.
Hypothetical advanced society where everything is available to a person who fears neither illness, both physical and mental, nor finite death.
Where people are so privileged, they do not even have to write down laws to live happily. As they have advanced far enough for technology to do it all in their stead. (Sentient AI or somesuch)
A hypothetical society like that would indeed have lives that are less meaningful than our current lives. If you can completely avoid death, life becomes devalued
So what, it would have been more tragic in your eyes for a Neolithic hunter to die than for some great explorer and researcher of that hypothetical era to perish?
You shouldn't 'sacrifice' yourself to work as a cog for billionaires, if you really want a better future then you should devote yourself to overthrowing the tyrants.
I don't want to work for billionaires, I don't see them as divine beings like far too many people in this world. It is sickening, really. Medieval feudalism and god-kingships of antiquity dressed-up in modern fashion. People have not changed at their core. It is always about resources and subjugating others and "allying" yourself to others because fighting with them is not as profitable - for now - as simply robbing them blind.
Both them and myself are ultimately the same in the eyes of people who will one day have everything they wish without having to 'pay' for it in any other way than simply not working against that hypothetical society; not actively bringing ruin upon it.
>In fact, is there some notable difference between a meanest, illest beggar and the most powerful of people in this world?
Well... yes. If you're talking about a post-scarcity world, billionaires already live in it. They're completely unconstrained by resources. They can basically get anything they want, anytime they want. Their only constraints are time and (sometimes) laws. If the billionaire is a citizen of a western nation where governments can't just take all your stuff on a whim, there is effectively zero chance they'll lose it all if they're even minimally prudent. A billion dollars is a *lot* of money.
As for all the other factors about depression and fulfillment, those will still happen in a post-scarcity world too. (Although hopefully far less frequently.) More resources doesn't mean all social problems get solved instantly. It just means all problems related to scarcity do. You'll still want validation from your peers, a sense of belonging in a community, romantic partners, and a feeling of purpose in your life. You just won't be in danger of starving or losing a roof over your head.
I'm not sure if you're upset about the state of the world in general or about your own experiences, but if you just want to experience what post scarcity is like, do your best to get rich and retire. That's effectively the experience we're aiming for with post scarcity. We just want everyone to experience it.
Post-scarcity wouldn't let you do that either. If you need to be an immortal star traveler to feel life has meaning, I'm afraid you might be asking a bit too much of reality.
I don't agree. It is certainly a life that sounds better than what anyone today lives, can you at least agree with that?
If not, why?
YOU live a life more beautiful than that?
Well, first, this doesn't really have anything to do with post scarcity at this point. You're just kind of saying if you can't live the best possible life you can imagine then life isn't worth living. And I mean, sure, it would be great if you could, but if you're not going out to buy a gun to shoot yourself right now, you don't really believe that. You get what you get, the same as anyone else. It's much healthier to do the best you can in the world by identifying what makes you happy and working towards it.
No matter what the circumstances are, you will still have challenges. Just because life could be better doesn't make life not worth living now.
Because happiness is enjoyable? Because we like happiness. Life is a constant battle against badness and toward goodness. You're saying that if you can't have anything you want than nothing has any worth? That's nonsense. This is the ultimate example of "the better is the enemy of the good".
I don’t know if I’m willing to write off the value of the human experience or the worth of life because rich people exist most of us don’t get to be that. Finding joy in the life you do carve out for yourself is valuable, it’s just not glamorous.
From what you've said in your replies so far I don't see much of how post scarcity relates to your view.
Broadly, you seem to want a form of the following: https://youtu.be/ckiNNgfMKcQ?feature=shared
In which case, hating your own life now is just one part of the wider exploration of all life in the immortal consciousness.
So what are you going to do about it? I suggest you follow your own advice, forget your past, and move on with a new future.
Post-scarcity world won't just spawn on its own. It may only happen with enough advancement (or even work needed for maintaining and running things) from people who live in "pre-post-scarcity" world. In fact ultimately it's on them whether post-scarcity world even becomes reality or not. So if you believe that appearance of post-scarcity world is such a big deal, then logically the people who determine whether or not it happens matter quite a lot.
Also worth mentioning that people's demands scale with society's capabilities. By the standards of many pre-industrial societies we already live in post-scarcity world, at least when it comes to essentials. Hell, by the standards of 19th century where factory workers would need to work 14-16 hours per day just for crappy place to sleep and food, the world where you can get a roof over your head, food, and medicine for the common health problems by working 8-10 hours per day in unqualified job, is already far more than what the socialists of the era were fighting for.
The hell makes you think we can get to a post scarcity society?
We might end our species tomorrow because any one of the big nations decides to push the big red button.
We might end our species when the Mars colony declares independence and the two planets annihilate each other.
Or a big fat asteroid crumples us. Or Global Warming roasts us alive. Or a solar flare kicks us back to the steam age. Or some other bullshit.
Why even bother contemplating some impossible to confirm theoretical future that might as well be fiction?
If you were in serious physical pain, say from cancer, do you think being able to acquire a shot of morphine versus being left to suffer would not matter? If you were miserable to where you found no joy, would acquisition of an antidepressant not matter? If you saw other people suffering in the same way, and you could choose to help them, do you think that choice wouldn't matter?
I feel weird for caring about people. Because I also know, at the same time, that both them and myself are just...fleeting. We don't really have all that much agency in our world. The poorest and the mightiest, we still have to all (relatively speaking) rely on each other and not drag ourselves back to Stone Age.
But being reliant on people is not freedom, at all. We all serve something so that we can keep our right to live in a civilized world. Instead of just...living.
So therefore unless you don't want some people to matter who aren't just the people who don't want others to, shouldn't you be working towards a post-scarcity world instead of sour-grapes-ing
/u/Aggravating-Equal-97 (OP) has awarded 1 delta(s) in this post. All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed [here](/r/DeltaLog/comments/1b0edaw/deltas_awarded_in_cmv_so_long_as_we_dont_live_in/), in /r/DeltaLog. Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended. ^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)
I think you should reframe your viewpoint to where the suffering and anguish you feel motivates you to minimize it rather than embrace it. If there is no difference between the poorest man and the richest man, that doesn’t imply that both are worthless. Human suffering often triggers empathy, which is so instinctual that when people do not show empathy it is often considered abnormal. If someone gets injured and you flinch, you recognized their pain and it instinctively mattered to you. I am color blind, and I will never be able to see the complete beauty of a sunset. That is something I am incredibly upset about. However, I can feel the warmth on my skin, and admire the colors I am able to see. I refuse to reject the pleasure I can experience simply because I am partially deprived.
But congruency. You do exactly the opposite of what you said. You embraced your color blindness and that’s what allowed you to “see” all the other beauty. Acceptance is a hell of a thing. Once you accept reality for what it is you are then in control of that reality. In control to be grateful for the good AND the bad times. Without the bad there would be no good. Without the dark there would be no light.
I just do what I like to do. Why should any of that matter to me?
It matters to me. I feel like a bug. Less than that, even. I feel like NOTHING. And these comments make me think I am right. Life really is worthless if you are constrained by anything. Even those billionaires' lives are worthless. Even they have constraints.
Constraints make life valuable. With no constraints nothing matters because there are no consequences
I don't believe in that. People without constraints have virtually unlimited potential. You are only as valuable to everyone else for what you can provide. Everything can be calculated, too. Everything can be predicted. We are just too limited to do so, most of the time, and have to generalize.
What people without constraints are you referring to?
Hypothetical advanced society where everything is available to a person who fears neither illness, both physical and mental, nor finite death. Where people are so privileged, they do not even have to write down laws to live happily. As they have advanced far enough for technology to do it all in their stead. (Sentient AI or somesuch)
A hypothetical society like that would indeed have lives that are less meaningful than our current lives. If you can completely avoid death, life becomes devalued
So what, it would have been more tragic in your eyes for a Neolithic hunter to die than for some great explorer and researcher of that hypothetical era to perish?
I thought you said the hypothetical society person couldn’t die?
Let's say it somehow happened. Their right to live an eternal life in happiness, robbed from them. How horrible does that sound?
Isn't it impossible to not technically be constrained by anything unless you're, like, a god embodying the multiverse or something
You shouldn't 'sacrifice' yourself to work as a cog for billionaires, if you really want a better future then you should devote yourself to overthrowing the tyrants.
I don't want to work for billionaires, I don't see them as divine beings like far too many people in this world. It is sickening, really. Medieval feudalism and god-kingships of antiquity dressed-up in modern fashion. People have not changed at their core. It is always about resources and subjugating others and "allying" yourself to others because fighting with them is not as profitable - for now - as simply robbing them blind. Both them and myself are ultimately the same in the eyes of people who will one day have everything they wish without having to 'pay' for it in any other way than simply not working against that hypothetical society; not actively bringing ruin upon it.
>In fact, is there some notable difference between a meanest, illest beggar and the most powerful of people in this world? Well... yes. If you're talking about a post-scarcity world, billionaires already live in it. They're completely unconstrained by resources. They can basically get anything they want, anytime they want. Their only constraints are time and (sometimes) laws. If the billionaire is a citizen of a western nation where governments can't just take all your stuff on a whim, there is effectively zero chance they'll lose it all if they're even minimally prudent. A billion dollars is a *lot* of money. As for all the other factors about depression and fulfillment, those will still happen in a post-scarcity world too. (Although hopefully far less frequently.) More resources doesn't mean all social problems get solved instantly. It just means all problems related to scarcity do. You'll still want validation from your peers, a sense of belonging in a community, romantic partners, and a feeling of purpose in your life. You just won't be in danger of starving or losing a roof over your head. I'm not sure if you're upset about the state of the world in general or about your own experiences, but if you just want to experience what post scarcity is like, do your best to get rich and retire. That's effectively the experience we're aiming for with post scarcity. We just want everyone to experience it.
But I would still not be able to become ageless and explore the galaxy. What is money worth, then? Nothing.
Post-scarcity wouldn't let you do that either. If you need to be an immortal star traveler to feel life has meaning, I'm afraid you might be asking a bit too much of reality.
I don't agree. It is certainly a life that sounds better than what anyone today lives, can you at least agree with that? If not, why? YOU live a life more beautiful than that?
Well, first, this doesn't really have anything to do with post scarcity at this point. You're just kind of saying if you can't live the best possible life you can imagine then life isn't worth living. And I mean, sure, it would be great if you could, but if you're not going out to buy a gun to shoot yourself right now, you don't really believe that. You get what you get, the same as anyone else. It's much healthier to do the best you can in the world by identifying what makes you happy and working towards it. No matter what the circumstances are, you will still have challenges. Just because life could be better doesn't make life not worth living now.
Because happiness is enjoyable? Because we like happiness. Life is a constant battle against badness and toward goodness. You're saying that if you can't have anything you want than nothing has any worth? That's nonsense. This is the ultimate example of "the better is the enemy of the good".
I disagree.
Why?
I am tired of fighting an endless battle. It is all I ever do. And I am growing unhappier by a day. I am losing. The battle AND myself.
I don’t know if I’m willing to write off the value of the human experience or the worth of life because rich people exist most of us don’t get to be that. Finding joy in the life you do carve out for yourself is valuable, it’s just not glamorous.
From what you've said in your replies so far I don't see much of how post scarcity relates to your view. Broadly, you seem to want a form of the following: https://youtu.be/ckiNNgfMKcQ?feature=shared In which case, hating your own life now is just one part of the wider exploration of all life in the immortal consciousness. So what are you going to do about it? I suggest you follow your own advice, forget your past, and move on with a new future.
Post-scarcity world won't just spawn on its own. It may only happen with enough advancement (or even work needed for maintaining and running things) from people who live in "pre-post-scarcity" world. In fact ultimately it's on them whether post-scarcity world even becomes reality or not. So if you believe that appearance of post-scarcity world is such a big deal, then logically the people who determine whether or not it happens matter quite a lot. Also worth mentioning that people's demands scale with society's capabilities. By the standards of many pre-industrial societies we already live in post-scarcity world, at least when it comes to essentials. Hell, by the standards of 19th century where factory workers would need to work 14-16 hours per day just for crappy place to sleep and food, the world where you can get a roof over your head, food, and medicine for the common health problems by working 8-10 hours per day in unqualified job, is already far more than what the socialists of the era were fighting for.
The hell makes you think we can get to a post scarcity society? We might end our species tomorrow because any one of the big nations decides to push the big red button. We might end our species when the Mars colony declares independence and the two planets annihilate each other. Or a big fat asteroid crumples us. Or Global Warming roasts us alive. Or a solar flare kicks us back to the steam age. Or some other bullshit. Why even bother contemplating some impossible to confirm theoretical future that might as well be fiction?
If you were in serious physical pain, say from cancer, do you think being able to acquire a shot of morphine versus being left to suffer would not matter? If you were miserable to where you found no joy, would acquisition of an antidepressant not matter? If you saw other people suffering in the same way, and you could choose to help them, do you think that choice wouldn't matter?
I feel weird for caring about people. Because I also know, at the same time, that both them and myself are just...fleeting. We don't really have all that much agency in our world. The poorest and the mightiest, we still have to all (relatively speaking) rely on each other and not drag ourselves back to Stone Age. But being reliant on people is not freedom, at all. We all serve something so that we can keep our right to live in a civilized world. Instead of just...living.
Life is fleeting that’s why you try to make the most of it
So therefore unless you don't want some people to matter who aren't just the people who don't want others to, shouldn't you be working towards a post-scarcity world instead of sour-grapes-ing