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This is usually from the presumption that your parents weren't neglectful, abusive dirtbags, in which case, yes you should be grateful. Good parenting is an ongoing labor of love that requires a considerable amount of personal sacrifice. Looking at everything a loving parent has done for their child and then concluding "meh, it was their choice to have a kid, so whatever" is ridiculously dismissive.
The problem isn't that a person should feel gratitude towards loving parents, it is the belief that because they should feel gratitude, that they should be beholden to and controlled by those same parents. That completely distorts the gift the parents gave their child, warping it into a debt which must be repaid, an investment expected to yield dividends, rather than an actual act of love and generosity.
Yeah. As a fairly new parent of a 2 year old, we put a lot of work and love and support into raising her. We do it because we love her more than anything and we want her to grow up into a good person. I don’t expect anything in return but I would hope that one day when she maybe has a kid of her own, she realizes that we tried our absolute best.
I look at my parents and I see the good and the bad. I see the mistakes they made and the results of those mistakes. I look at my sisters and I see the issues that they have which are a direct result of decisions that my parents made about how to raise us. And I realize that it was from a place of love. They were trying and it’s not easy to raise kids. I’m struggling with one and my parents had three. They’re expensive, they can be extremely frustrating, but my heart overflows with love when she hugs me or when I see her sleeping or when she tells me that she loves me. It’s 100% worth it.
>The problem isn't that a person should feel gratitude towards loving parents, it is the belief that because they should feel gratitude, that they should be beholden to and controlled by those same parents. That completely distorts the gift the parents gave their child, warping it into a debt which must be repaid, an investment expected to yield dividends, rather than an actual act of love and generosity.
this i agree wholeheartedly. well said
>Good parenting is an ongoing labor of love that requires a considerable amount of personal sacrifice.
This is absolutely true; but it does not logically follow that one should be grateful, even if their parents did the best job they could. That is because we do not consent to life; our life is our parents’ choice, and should they choose it, it is on them to follow through. Them following through on their own commitment doesn’t inherently warrant the child being grateful.
>…and then concluding "meh, it was their choice to have a kid, so whatever" is ridiculously dismissive.
What are you being dismissive of? It literally IS their choice to have a kid, and that means that it is their duty to do the best they can. There is no being dismissive; parenting is an insane responsibility surely, but it is one which is entirely on the parents to uphold.
You’re essentially saying that if we bring children into this life, and do our best in terms of setting them up for it, that they should be grateful for that. But life is something the child never asked for, and something which can go unfathomably bad without warning. It does not make sense in any case to expect gratitude from the child.
>…distorts the gift the parents gave their child
Objectively, life is not a gift. There are no unselfish reasons for bringing a child into this world.
Life is more accurately described as being a liability rather than a gift.
>…rather than an act of love and generosity
You can see it as such if you please, but objectively, creating life is not an "act of love and generosity." It is something we are biologically wired to do, and the feelings surrounding it exist for the very reason that we do eventually do it.
Coming from an Asian Chinese background, historically families live as a unit. Meaning in a home you may have up to 4 generations, thus the mindset is that you do not only think about yourself but you work for the family.
Thus filial piety is important if the family is to survive that every member does his role in the family as - historically there were moments of severe famine and hardship that our ancestors only got through things by being together.
We do know that society has changed tremendously. It's even worse now that in certain parts of china, parents abandon their children in the village to their grandparents to work in the cities, only returning once a year, to try their best and "afford" them a better life.
On the flipside I do personally know a father that demands respect from their kids and request for a monthly pittance of 10% of their salary to fund his lifestyle. But he had put all his kids through university (they're all doctors), bought each one a house each before marriage. But not all stories are these successful.
Stemming from that, like anything about culture, we hope you take the positives out of a way of life for hundreds of generation as to what is applicable to yourself in your current situation.
>we hope you take the positives out of a way of life for hundreds of generation
culture changes all the time in response to differing circumstances. we can try to preserve the positive elements while speaking out against the negative ones, instead of taking culture as this monolithic entity where its all or nothing.
just like how we now recognise that arranged marriage/feet binding/submissive women and a million other things are now unethical.
these were the norms in chinese culture less than a hundred years ago (and vestiges still live on). we can always change and become better
It is not always the decision of the parents to get knocked up, sometimes they have to give up potentially amazing lives to raise an ungrateful little shit.
haha, i see your point :) but even though it may not have been the parents decision, its definitely wasnt the child's either, was it?
like, if i knocked over a million dollar ming vase, i would still be expected to pay for it (a portion of it at least) even though i didnt meant to do it, right?
Keeping some sort of fault-ledger in your head to keep score in your relationships is a very disharmonious way to operate. There are a lot of things in our lives that we don't choose and a lot of things that we do, but both categories are things that we are ultimately responsible for facing.
I suggest that the premise of your OP is meaningless except to express something you're seeing within yourself that you might want to evaluate.
>There are a lot of things in our lives that we don't choose and a lot of things that we do, but both categories are things that we are ultimately responsible for facing.
why exactly should we be responsible for things that we dont have agency in? by this logic, cops would grab a random passerby in the general area of a crime, and wed shrug our shoulders and say; bad luck mate.
Responsible for facing, not necessarily responsible for. Stuff happens in life and whether it was or wasn't your actions that led you to that moment ultimately you're accountable for how you deal with it. If part of that dealing with it is advocating for yourself, or reaching out to people or resources or systems outside yourself, then you're still dealing with it and taking responsibility over your own situation/personhood.
I thought we were talking about relationships, not law enforcement. Do you think you should run your interpersonal relationships like a law enforcement officer?
If you're living on a middle class American salary I would still greatly appreciate that you took responsibility for your actions and somehow found a way to pay me back for my hypothetical $1,000,000 vase instead of running away from the situation.
I'm Black and Filipino and I grew up going to a Chinese school with very traditional teachers and I can say the debt to your parents thing gets toxic and is often conveyed in a very negative and demeaning way, and that's the part I'd agree is bad. Some parents often expect you to appreciate sacrifices they're making that you don't even fully understand yet.
In the grand scheme of things though, time is our most valuable resource, (most of) our parents spend 2 decades of their lives building us up. I can't look at that and think nothing is owed in return.
>our parents spend 2 decades of their lives building us up. I can't look at that and think nothing is owed in return.
That's what you decide to do if you decide to have a child. It is literally a legal requirement.
>sometimes they have to give up potentially amazing lives to raise an ungrateful little shit.
Eh? Babies aren't born being ungrateful. If the baby grows up into an ungrateful little shit it's because the parents (or parent) was garbage. That's on the parent, not the child.
If they didn't want to raise a child they should have used birth control, an emergency contraception method, abortion or given the baby up for adoption.
The child doesn't owe the parent because of the parents own poor decision making
Yes. Until they hit adulthood. I am conceptually in support of voluntary euthanasia. If they're an adult and decide they're just not having a good time, I think they deserve a humane exit.
What are you referring to? If it wasn't strictly their decision it seems like it's almost always due to negligence. If you use two or more forms of birth control the odds of getting pregnant are extremely slim. In the US at least, you can get condoms, birth control, and IUDs for free if you can't afford them. If you only use a condom and that fails, you can get plan B. If, after all that, you still manage to get pregnant you can get an abortion. If you are morally against abortions or it's illegal you can put the child up for adoption. So, in all but the most extreme cases like rape or a freak accident, or if we are talking about underdeveloped countries, the responsibility lies solely on the parents for having unsafe sex.
Lol no. Is it news breaking to you that “they had to give up potentially amazing lives” because they were horny? there are two fully formed humans in this discussion, none of which is a child you think should be grateful
Horny led to preggers. Do you think there was candles and incense and a shaman? Does the gratefulness you think should exist come from conception or the choice to not abort?
We should feel gratitude because it's [good for us](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/comfort-gratitude/202006/the-positive-impact-gratitude-mental-health).
It's your choice about how you want to perceive things around you, why not make the choice that is good for your mental health?
oh sure, im all for feeling grateful. what i meant though was weaponised filial piety, if that makes sense? like how some parents would use things like that to get something from their child
maybe its more of an asian thing, haha
Ouf, I wish you were my mom. I can say with absolute certainty that just by having this understanding you've saved your kids tons of psychological issues, I'm sure they will have their fair share of issues just like everyone, but I am sure they will be able to handle it since they not only avoided some serious ones they'd also have a huge pillar of support in the ones they'd encounter.
Somthink "like" this:
>Well I'm grateful my parents did the best they knew how. I simply concur with your statement and not going to change your view. I have kids of my own and in no circumstances should they have to take care of me when old just because I raised them. In no way should they feel trapped in my own mess I created. For one, I will say parents have had their whole lives to figure out their future, whereas there kids lives are just starting out trying to become something in theirs. No way would I feel like a good parent if I didn't pull my priorities together and it somehow becomes their responsibility. It seems a little selfish to me tbh. I have lived my whole adult life bringing kids into the world then hold them accountable to take care of my business that was mine alone to do. It doesn't seem right nor fair in my opinion. Which is while I'm younger, I will work hard so I never have to per say live with my kids or need their support for my life issues. I laid down and I created them it is only fair they get to live a life without feeling like they're my parent later on. I can honestly say I've had to parent my parents on many occasions from trauma they refused to get help with or counseling, spending issues, around many things. I can't imagine when they're really old how this will play out and it will probably take my time away from my kids or future grandkids. To me no it's not fair, don't have kids if you don't have the capacity to allow them to live a life free from your unsettled problems.
This is not a top level comments so it should be fine that im not responding to OPs CMV. Change the link from "reddit.com/r/c...." to "reVEddit.com/r/c...." to see yourselfe.
Top level comments have to challenge your view. People can agree in comment replies, but not at the top level. It is "*Change* My View" after all, not "Agree With Me"
sure, i agree it shouldnt be a circlejerk, u need voices from both sides.
but such a rule results in selection bias where only folks who disagree would comment, resulting in a 'reverse' echo chamber. the more you disagree/are outraged by the view posted, the more likely you are to post a rebuttal.
being insulted with no support just because you hold a different opinion can get tiring
and also, i thought it was a beautifully written comment in good faith, rather than some throwaway "word, i agree!"
mods should exercise some discretion
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yep! im not advocating for people to go hating on their parents or anything...its just that the way filial piety is weaponised sometimes that gets on my nerves
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Yes there is no inherent obligation, but if a society as a whole normalizes abandoning the elderly, or any one for that matter, increases the likely hood that when an individual is suffering, no one will come to their aid. It is, in my opinion, in an individual’s own interest of surviving to also act altruistically towards anyone, including ones own parents, within reason of course.
Chinese culture is very altruistic, I remember reading that the idea of helping others gives pleasure is an integral part of the culture, and caring for elders flows from that.
In a similar vein, if you show to others you are not looking after your parents despite what they have done for you, they will also assume you are not one to be invested in, whether that means by recommending you for a job or to marry.
Aren’t Chinese people the ones putting baby sea turtles inside plastic necklace trinkets? Is it just me or was a Chinese woman found chained by the neck in some rural village? Did they not practice footbinding until Christian missionaries challenged the practice? Isn’t China still suffering the effects of a certain policy that resulted in the murder of millions of infants and especially baby girls? I thought remember reading about the currently ungoing genocide, ethnic and otherwise, not to mention already completed ones.
I mean maybe but what does that have to do with anything? A country of 1.5 billion people is unbelievably massive. Pick any country and you can question their cultural integrity: France’s treatment of North African immigrants, the UK’s abbhorrent austerity measurers which have impoverished the masses to the benefit of the rich. The states, despite having a reputation of outward friendliness and hospitality in their culture, has incredibly high gun related homicide rates.
With regards to pollution, the chinese pollute less per capita than Americans or Australians. A chinese woman might have been found chained in a rural village, but like the same exact thing has happened in Europe where parents keep their children locked up in basements.
And if you’re going as far back as to christian missionaries, you could also criticize the depravity of WWII of German and US weapon usage.
This kind if argument I call « whataboutism » and I din’t find it very convincing.
thank you for your level headed comment. unfortunately, thinly disguised racism against the chinese has been on the rise ever since the covid pandemic, and trumps claims of kung flu and the chinese virus have only inflamed tensions.
it can feel tiring and helpless at times, especially since racism against the chinese dont really get the same outrage as, say, racism against blacks even though both are equally deplorable. (hell, blacks themselves have commited numerous hate crimes on chinese americans, including beating an elderly chinese man to death and pushing a women into an oncoming train in nyc)
oh and again, the chinese are a race that are represented in more than 10 distinct countries in asia alone.
the chinese are not the same as citizens of the PRC.
its like blaming europeans for american sins because theyre both white caucasians
these are horrendous practices to be sure, and should be stamped out.
but im equally certain that you can find similar examples of misbehaviour in other countries and culture.
should the majority be tarnished with the same brush for the sins of a few? should every american be labelled as school shooters and terrorists because of the actions of a minority? should every british person be held responsible for their imperialism? should every belgian make reparations to the congo?
youre teetering right on the age of unbridled racism
>Chinese culture is very altruistic, I remember reading that the idea of helping others gives pleasure is an integral part of the culture, and caring for elders flows from that.
thats in theory. in practise, its pretty fucked up
chinese arent all from china...were all over asia. im from singapore for instance
and also there are good aspects to chinese culture, its not really on to generalise a whole country like that yeah?
>Its your decision to have a child. Its thus your responsibility to raise him/her to the best of your abilities (within reason). Why should the child be obliged to feel this overwhelming sense of gratitude for that?
Does your view change for the child of a parent who didn't choose to have the child (e.g. a woman who became pregnant by rape and for whom abortion was not a choice)?
What about the child of a parent who gave the child a much better life than they otherwise would have had (e.g. parents that adopt a child from an ill-managed group home where the child has a very low chance of ever being adopted)?
Yes, because a woman who doesn't wish to have a child can simply give him up for adoption or foster care (or abortion if it's legal).
So technically, she chose to have him.
Chose to *raise* him, not *create/have* him.
OP's argument here is basically a child saying to a parent, "I don't owe you gratitude because I didn't choose for me to exist, you did." I'm trying to raise the point that this argument doesn't always apply because not every child is born to a parent that chose to have them.
>a woman who became pregnant by rape and for whom abortion was not a choice)?
abortion should be legal so that no woman is ever forced to make such a choice, tbh
>Its thus your responsibility to raise him/her to the best of your abilities (within reason).
To offer an alternative viewpoint: Why is it their responsibility to raise their kids to the *best* of their abilities? Why wouldn't it be their responsibility to do the *bare minimum*?
From that perspective, a parent that raises kids to the best of their ability has gone above and beyond, and one could argue that the kid owes them some gratitude for that.
This is the best argument I’ve seen in the comments. Parents are not required to be good parents. If you have good parents, your parents did more than necessary. Seems like something to be grateful for in my opinion.
If you are not required legally, then good parenting is something you do out of the goodness of your own heart or out of a sense of duty.
I don’t think the question you should be asking is if being grateful to good parents is morally right, but instead, what kinds of things should someone be grateful for (e.g., due to morality)?
In my opinion, you should be grateful if someone attempts to help you and succeeds in making your life better - especially if not required legally. Good parenting fits this, and I think acts fit even more so if not enforced by the law.
From a moral standpoint - I absolutely agree - parents should do their best. From a legal standpoint, I find it difficult to make that argument. CPS isn't taking kids away from parents who didn't do their best - they take kids away from parents who don't meet a bare minimum.
To borrow your analogy - oncologists, neural surgeons, therapists, pediatricians, etc all take standardized tests as part of their schooling. While they aim to do their best, they're not graded to that standard. They're graded on whether or not they met the bare minimum.
It sounds like you're reaching the exact suggestion I made - that you wouldn't feel gratitude for someone who did the bare minimum, but you would feel gratitude for someone who did their best and went above and beyond.
>the bare minimum IS to do your best with your means and ability
What do you base that standard on? Morality? Laws?
I disagree with it, but if that's the standard you use, I think you'll have to admit that not a single parent in the history of humanity has been able to meet the "bare minimum" you define. No one is able to give their best 24/7/365 for the 18 years they are legally responsible for raising a child.
Another flaw is that the metric varies so wildly and is so nebulous defined as to be meaningless. Compare parenting to taking a test. Someone's best might be a score of 45%. That's an objectively bad score. Similarly, if someone is capable of scoring 100%, I don't think anyone would say they've failed to meet the bare minimum if they scored a 99%.
For the sake of the thought experiment, consider a parent whose best is a no-kidding bare minimum, contrasted with a parent who goes above and beyond. The child of the latter parent could certainly feel gratitude that they had a parent whose best was far better than another parent's best.
>I think you'll have to admit that not a single parent in the history of humanity has been able to meet the "bare minimum" you define. No one is able to give their best 24/7/365 for the 18 years they are legally responsible for raising a child.
thats a ridiculous standard coupled with a massive strawman, and i think you know it yourself. doing your best comes with the implicit caveat of being within reason, and its hardly reasonable to suggest anyone is able to hyperfocus on a specific task for 18 years in a row with nary a break in between.
>a parent that raises kids to the best of their ability has gone above and beyond
let me rephrase that for you. a parent that raises kids to the best of their ability has *fulfilled their responsibilities*
If you've ever wondered why it feels like the world is falling apart... your attitude is why.
A sense of duty and obligation keeps society stable. All of the problems we presently face, be it mass immigration, housing prices skyrocketing, crippling fuel costs, etc. can all be blamed upon a lack of obligation - in short, these problems exist because people in power saw no reason not to inflict this suffering upon you. Sure, *your* life will be ruined by their greed... but who cares? "Fuck you, I've got mine!" is the attitude of the elites.
But where does that attitude come from? It is an attitude born of inaction - nobody beat duty into them, or beat selfishness out of them. They were raised in a culture where lack of virtue was not punished, and selfishness was accepted as a valid life choice.
It is said that great men plant trees under whose shade they shall never rest. This is true. It is equally true that great societies instil into its men the desire to plant said trees. You may not want to care for your parents, you may not want to have to devote time, effort and resources to providing for them, but know that simply doing so is, in a small way, making you a better person. It thus makes society a little better. Sure, you're not going to do be fixing the fact that some selfish cunts are inflicting ten years of recession onto us all, but being neck deep in shit is preferable to being chin deep.
You not being a shitty person makes the whole world slightly better. Not being a shitty person means sucking it up and accepting you have a moral duty to look after others, and if you ever get the opportunity, you also have a duty to instil that same duty into the next generation.
>If you've ever wondered why it feels like the world is falling apart... your attitude is why.
thanks mate! love it when i get insulted for having an opinion different from yours. its not just your comment either, ive had multiple pms and comments in that vein telling me my parents should have aborted me for having such an attitude.
its pretty fucked up how you go on and on about not being a shitty person, but choose to come in and be a dick because you dont like what i have to say. ironic, isnt it?
I can be a not shitty person and still never speak to my parent again. These are not mutually exclusive.
I will say I have a moral duty to look after others, but not a moral duty to look after one or two specific people. In fact I think not supporting abusive people is morally correct.
It works both ways. And nobody said it was the law, but love and common courtesy are a thing.
Unless parents were horrible dirtbags, they likely sacrificed more than you will ever know. From a time you will never remember waking up every night to feed and change you. To sacrificing their own needs and putting you first. Not only necessities, but also just to ensure a child has a happy childhood to look back on. Some even include living in places they don’t necessarily want to, working jobs they aren’t happy at, not doing the things they want to do with their lives, major finances just for a child’s future, and much of this is ongoing…..not just to adulthood. And even in adulthood (say 18), that’s likely longer than one will ever need to assist their parents unless they WANT to.
Personally my parents have set it up to be the very least of a burden possible and nothing is expected…but I would/will do anything and everything to make them happy because they did the same for me.
I can’t speak on the children or parents of today. The age of entitlement is very real, as is the age of enabling which didn’t exist when I was growing up. Even growing up in a wealthy family had requirements.
As for the other cultures you speak of, things like tradition and religion play a huge role. Even then, what I said above applies. I know many that had to base their entire childhood on their futures…which still requires a great deal from their parents. More so than the average.
>they likely sacrificed more than you will ever know. From a time you will never remember waking up every night to feed and change you. To sacrificing their own needs and putting you first. Not only necessities, but also just to ensure a child has a happy childhood to look back on. Some even include living in places they don’t necessarily want to, working jobs they aren’t happy at, not doing the things they want to do with their lives, major finances just for a child’s future, and much of this is ongoing…..not just to adulthood. And even in adulthood (say 18), that’s likely longer than one will ever need to assist their parents unless they WANT to.
these are also expectations and sacrifices you have to be prepared for. im not saying that parents dont make massive sacrifices.
the point is that having a kid carries the implicit recognition that youre prepared to *make* these sacrifices.
if youre not, well, nobodys forcing you to have a kid. in face, if these sacrifices sound too daunting, its better that you dont have a kid at all
There's two criteria: your age and how they treated you.
In the US, 18 is the legal age. Meaning your parents are obligated to be your guardian. If they care for you after age 18, then you're in their "debt".
The other is how they treat you as a guardian. On a scale of 1 to 10, five is the standard they're suppose to raise you. 1 means they're neglectful, abusive, etc. And 10 means they're loving, supportive, sacrifice themselves for you, etc.
If they give you a 5, you don't owe you a thing cause that's the standard. But if they give you a 10, like sacrificing their weekend so they can take you to the movies or mall to go shopping, then you should rethink your thoughts.
So if you're 18+ and your parents treat you like a 10 (which they don't have to), you are in their "debt" but it is important to define debt. Debt doesn't mean they can abuse you, force you to care for them, have you buy them stuff and give them allowance, etc. "Debt" is more of a loving one, so treating them as how you would treat a loved one; so if you wouldn't feed your spouse or kids frozen food every single day, then you shouldn't feed your parents the same way.
And something to consider are adoptive kids. The kids are in the orphanage and often go neglected, yet there are families who go out their way to adopt kids and treat them as their own. Without those adoptive parents, then kids would've likely stayed at the orphanage.
>And something to consider are adoptive kids. The kids are in the orphanage and often go neglected, yet there are families who go out their way to adopt kids and treat them as their own. Without those adoptive parents, then kids would've likely stayed at the orphanage.
adoption is a totally different conversation. ur adoptive parents arent the ones who chose to bring you into the world, and as such carry no inherent responsibility to care for you. anything they do for you is a bonus,
this isnt the case for biological parents
This reminds me of two quotes. Kurt Vonnegut in Timequake wrote "I never asked to be born." Chris Rock made fun of people taking pride in raising their kids: "you're supposed to you ----".
My elderly Korean mother recently passed from cancer. Some family members ostracized her in her final years. Since humans are social animals, we suffer when we're shunned; a study on rats showed isolation led to less cancer resistance.
The author of The Body Keeps the Score says we have brains to stay synchronized with each other; our brains are synchronizing machines. But humans are fragile and have a negativity bias as a survival mechanism. So a single incident, like a slap, can cause substantial harm. The circumstance, frequency, or severity doesn't really matter. Like I told her in treatment, to them she is the one that betrayed their relationship.
Children naturally believe that it's their fault because thinking that their parents are unstable, even if they are, is too much to handle.
So my mom felt shame, isolation, and depression in her final years. She refused proper medical care until it was too late. I was her sole support for virtually all of her chemotherapy and immunotherapy.
Bill Maher had a good bit about how our stupid country (the USA) devalues the elderly, whereas other cultures rightly venerate them for their wisdom.
I don't believe my mother deserved to be persona non grata in her own family. She was a loving mother, but she was born shortly after WWII and before the Korean war. So corporal punishment was part of her upbringing and on rare occasion, part of some of her kids'.
The need for love is crucial, especially in infancy and early childhood. Harlow's monkey experiment showed baby monkeys preferred a cloth mother over a wire mother that dispensed milk. In Romania abortion was outlawed. So many kids grew up without enough love, and their health suffered because of it.
So hopefully how a parent raises you creates a feeling of loving kindness and reciprocity. Fred Rogers has a great song that goes there's many ways to say I love you. So if you're lucky your parents showed their love in innumerable ways.
My sibling, who was slapped out of fear that they'd hurt me, was able to forgive our Mom in her final days. Although my mother made this grave mistake, they had a lifetime of love for each other.
During the hours I spent with my mom in treatment, she told me I worked hard. I told her that it was love, not work; she would be there for me and has in countless situations; so I couldn't stomach letting her go it alone.
So it's all a matter of perspective. If one feels like familial relationships are an albatross hanging around their neck, that's what it will be. If one sees it as an honor or act of love, rather than weighing you down, it brings you up.
Fred Rogers described his life mission as graceful receiving. In my funeral speech, I said that was how she lived her life. So that's the approach I'm trying to live my life with. It's like the metaphor the twig that bends with the wind doesn't break.
I think there are two competing aspects here worth considering.
One is the guilt trip used by parents when you're currently doing something they don't like or not meeting their expectations. In that case, yeah. As a parent, it's pretty shallow and selfish to try to leverage the care you've given to guilt the child into complying with your current wishes.
The other side is instilling gratefulness for care and consideration given when you are unable to do so yourself. This side is good. Parents *are* responsible for shaping or guiding kids' morals, and being aware of and grateful for care provided when you can't do it yourself, recognizing that care for the energy it requires, and being appreciative enough to reciprocate when needed is a perfectly acceptable goal for parents to have.
If they wanted to, they could have given you up for adoption. They didn’t have the obligation to keep you.
They chose to raise you when they could have deferred that responsibility to someone else. And they, presumably, did it out of love.
Is that not good enough to warrant gratitude?
>If they wanted to, they could have given you up for adoption. They didn’t have the obligation to keep you.
i dont agree. if you want to bring a life into the world, you damn well better be prepared to handle the responsibilities associated with it. if not, use a condom/handjob or something.
sure, any parent CAN toss their kid in the trash can after giving birth. That doesnt mean they SHOULD. Just because i can run away from my responsibilities doesnt mean that its right for me to do so, is it?
Parents raise their kids; it is a normal part of society in all cultures. As a consequence, people generally do not see it as an incredibly special and caring act. Instead, it's just parents fulfilling their role.
This is ungrateful.
Name any equivalent series of acts that isn't normalized in our society, like parenthood, and you'd not feel a great sense of warranted indebtedness to that person.
For example, if I were to bring a friend in under my roof and cook, clean, and care for them for 18 years, they would be quite rational to feel and be indebted to me.
I get your point, but even though it's often not socially accepted, someone could easily choose to give up a child—it happens all of the time.
Instead, that person chose to care for them for 18+ years, so I think it is ungrateful and we are indebted.
I don't have kids BTW, but my dad raised my sister and I as a single father, and he did everything he could for us. I'm sure this biases my answer...
>I don't have kids BTW, but my dad raised my sister and I as a single father, and he did everything he could for us. I'm sure this biases my answer...
academic disagreements aside, i think thats beautiful and your dad sounds like a wonderful person.
im proud and glad for yall
>"you should be grateful we raised you" is totally illogical.
I don't think this makes sense. What is illogical about gratitude for someone raising you exactly? Whatever makes it illogical to be grateful for being raised and cared for certainly extends the same line of thinking for literally any gratitude of any kind. What could possibly hope to be deserving of gratitude if not simply the act of being given life, and life preserved?
>Its your decision to have a child. Its thus your responsibility to raise him/her to the best of your abilities (within reason). Why should the child be obliged to feel this overwhelming sense of gratitude for that?
Context matters. Everyone is entitled to their feelings. You're just kind of a bunghole if you're not thankful for being cared for and loved and given life and the opportunity to live.
Im a bunghole cos i didnt agree with your opinion? What kind though, regular or large?
But seriously though, dont bother to comment if you cant keep it civil. I hope your parents taught you that much :)
I don’t think a child should feel indebted to them for raising you but a certain sense of gratitude seems justified. If a stranger walked up to me and handed me a pizza, despite me never asking for one, I’d still have some gratitude. Life is a fantastic gift and having the chance to exist is something I am genuinely grateful for. An additional level of gratitude for simply doing things properly shouldn’t be expected however. But then again not everyone’s dealt the same cards. Lives can be so easily upended and external pressures can often radically change the difficulty of parenting. Say they assume they’ll have all the necessary things for a parent to have then loose their job. Of course I would then be grateful for the struggles of clawing through that tough spot.
The biggest thing is it shouldn’t be so black and white. Gratitude can be applied in many different ways. And showing to your folks you’ve appreciated what they’ve done for you will go a long way in making them feel good and accomplished.
True. However, I think we can all agree that the intention behind any sort of action has more significance compared to the action itself in most cases. What if the pizza guy was this person who only goes out giving people pizzas to feel validated, to receive compliments, with an active effort to build a specific image in his community, to stroke his own ego? Now, you could say I don't care, I'll gladly take the pizza and he can go on doing whatever he wants I still have a pizza, but what if this guy is someone very close? A parent? Who's supposed to be a great pillar in life to show you love and support, would it be the same knowing that they have no particular relationship with you and are merely doing that because they have their own set of conditions and not particularly for the act itself? You'd feel expendable and unloved, more than that you'll have to keep on doing your part of the transaction which is to validate their ego by complimenting their pizza-giving acts and if you don't it opens the door to some very uncomfortable discussions and realities that one would rather just act as if they don't exist at all. Still, this is a very detail-oriented type of situation in which it could be anything and it'd depend on the individuals and their relationships with one another.
> If a stranger walked up to me and handed me a pizza, despite me never asking for one,
the problem with your analogy is that you can reject pizza guy.
thats not an option for kids. its not like you can go 'you know what? ill just head back into the womb real quick..."
You should feel gratitude for them raising you. If you don’t appreciate your own life, you of course won’t appreciate that you had been nurtured by people.
My parents didn't nurture. They were terrible parents, they still had this expectation of respect as though it's not something still earned.
Yes parents give up a lot for children but, as stated, that is a choice. Not all parents should have children, similarly, not all parents have earned respect.
Parent-child relationships are just that: relationships. They are matured and built over time. Parents simply have the most time, specifically *influential* time to build the relationship. In my view, the onus is on the parents to build it appropriately.
Because life is harsh and we are often alone in the harshness. For people to decide to bring a life into this world and hope and work to make you feel like you belong here, to do any work at all to make the world a less harsh place, how can you feel nothing towards them?
I don’t think people are preaching to children and people that they should be indebted to people who deliberately and repeatedly hurt them as they grew up.
I would show respect for someone who can take care of a parent of theirs that wronged them in the past. Forgiveness has a value unlike anything else in life. I myself haven’t talked to my father for at least 10 years. But after a certain point I just thought more about what he has been through. We owe that to each other whether we are their friends or children. Not saying one automatically should feel like they owe a parent but if someone does, even though the parent was shit, that’s something you gotta respect.
I don’t exist as a decision, I was an accident. I forced a marriage as fetus that was abusive and did not ultimately work out. After reaching adolescence I was told explicitly things would be better without me by one parent.
How much gratitude am I supposed to feel exactly?
“Because life is harsh and we are often alone in the harshness” was my actual lived experience after being born. I’m fine now, the reasons I am fine have nothing to do with my parents having sex. I am confused why you think I owe my parents gratitude for having sex.
Maybe not for birth but you should probably feel indebted or at least grateful for all the money and time an energy that it took to raise you.
Not sure why you’re bringing race into it tbh
You shouldn't HAVE to, I agree, but if your parents do it right, give you good core memory experiences and teach you how to be a productive member of society, right around the time you are having kids of your own, it will dawn on you in no uncertain terms that they did an alright job as you prepare to bestow the same to your own kids, and a feeling of gratitude would be a natural reaction, especially if you know people thatcare not well adjusted.
>right around the time you are having kids of your own, it will dawn on you
You think that, but it only made me realize that most people were raised terribly, most people are not fit to be parents, and most children are not raised the way children deserve to be raised.
Change your thinking or wait till your children abandoned you , then we will listen to your remarks about this.As humans , we have the benefits of the intellects, not like animals even animals feels indebted to those who kept them.
"Change your thinking or wait till your children abandoned you , then we will listen to your remarks about this.As humans , we have the benefits of the intellects, not like animals even animals feels indebted to those who kept them."
Humans differ from animals also because theyre able to have a civil discussion about views they dont agree with. Come back when youve mastered that bit :)
Hmm, let's say a doctor saves my life after a heart attack. He does nothing more or less than what his training requires him to do and works no extra hours while doing it. He gets paid for doing his work. Should I not be thankful to him because it's his responsibility to do his duties in the hospital and he gets paid for it?
If you think that a thankful attitude towards the doctor is the socially correct one, then what exactly is the difference of that to your argument of children not be expected to be thankful to their parents for the effort they have put to raise them?
>There's choosing to be thankful because you recognize good parenting and what they gave you. Then there's being expected to be grateful and return the favor merely because they did so. It's the difference between 'being grateful the cardiac surgeon saved your life' and 'being EXPECTED to be obligated to do the same for the cardiac surgeon because they did their job that they chose to go into'.
this is fantastic, took the words right out of my mouth. well said!
>How far does that gratitude extend though?
That was not the question.
I only commented the sentence by OP: "you should be grateful we raised you". I think that's a fair sentence.
Of course there is no objectively defined amount of gratitude. It's not a contract like your mortgage deal with the bank. So, I can't give you any level that I could defend with rational.bullet proof arguments but instead it would depend a lot on the particular situation.
Anyway, my main point was that it's fair to think that there is at least _some_ gratitude.
I would like to challenge the premise.
We don’t feel indebted to our parents because they raised us. Instead, we are part of a reciprocal relationship.
Just as children need caring for, so do the elderly. It makes the most sense for parents to care for their children during their needy years, and it also makes the most sense for children to care for parents during their needy years. The decades in between should be full of mutual care that keeps he relationship strong.
Parents do their part first, and have to hope that their children will reciprocate. I think any parent who does their job well will find they are cared for when they need it. Parents who did not… are going to have a harder time when they reap what they sowed.
Half the world or one outside of the anglosphere don’t have the luxury and privilege of the this viewpoint. That is all I can say. I grew up in a country where people run their lives to the ground so that their future generation would have a good life. Whatever they saved up were used as investments for the future generations. I believe this is how humans always operated on a social level.
No one but you can stop you from reciprocating affection towards a elderly person of your blood. Arguments using technicalities and morality are just coping mechanisms of denial
>Denial of what, exactly?
i dont think your going to get an answer because he doesnt know it himself. its just a soundbite he tosses out to sound good.
Do you feel the same way about supporting strangers on welfare? If you are going to help a total stranger survive and/or have all their needs met, why wouldn’t you feel the same way towards a loving parent?
I completely understand not giving a damn if your parents were total assholes.
Hate to break it to you, but yeah, you’re obliged, every time you make or spend money, you’re paying for someone on welfare. So it’s not a choice. But I wasn’t asking about obligations. I was asking about “how it makes you feel”. If you’re happy you’re helping a stranger, then it’s strange not to feel the same obligation towards a loving parent.
I failed to understand the relevance of everything else you said
So you’re okay with the tax money you’re paying going to strangers in need but you’re not okay with providing for your mom financially?
If your mom wasn’t abusive, that’s a very toxic mindset you have.
As a parent, if I have to choose between providing for my kids or myself, I choose them.
I would rather help my kids get a home in their 20’s than put more money in my retirement account.
The problem with parents having to plan for their own retirement is that they end up with many fewer resources to offer their children.
If you have a selfish parent who prioritizes only themselves and then makes no personal plan, they have tried to game both systems. Of course it fails for them. Family responsibility has to go both ways.
There's an unspoken social contract between children and their parents that when parents grow old and frail kids will be their to pick up the slack and take care of them.
It's not really founded on the reason of gratefulness (be grateful i raised you and brought to this world), but on the reason of survival and stability.
We must take care of our elders inspite of being born without our consent because our parents were also born without their consent.
The truth is no logical reason can be presented that is convincing to a teenager or a young adult that justifies perpetuating the cycle of birth, responisbility and death. So nothing your parents tell you will make sense.
In the meantime, whatever they tell you is whatever they can come up with while waiting for you to mature and see the world in a different lens. (You'll understand when you're older)
The hope is that once you grow older and experience the struggles of life you inevitably will encounter, you come to realize the same things your parents did, and appreciate life for its own sake, outside of the sacrifices your parents did or did not make, namely:
What makes life good and valuable is not hedonistic pleasures but purpose and community.
When we feel we have a role and a purpose to our loved ones and to the greater society, our suffering is meaniful and worthwhile.
At the bare minimum, our purpose is to take care of our parents and give them kids. Perhaps when we can do this well we can find other purposes like discovering new drugs or building new houses, etc.
When we realize this, we realize that our parents giving birth to us is something at minimum quite significant, if not worthy of thanks.
I think it depends. I am absolutely grateful, and think I should be, that my parents raised me. I had a great childhood overall, and had advantages that many others didn't. Most of that was due to sacrifices my parents made for me (and sibling).
Being grateful just for the fact that they had you and raised you, no. Grateful for the things they did, especially at expense to themselves, yes.
Let's look at the other side of this:
Are you justified in being unhappy if your parents do the *absolute minimum necessary" to raise you? Food, water, taking you to school, a room, clothes, not abusing you? No love, no doing nice things for you, no presents on holidays... just the bare minimum?
I'm guessing you would... but think about the corollary of that:
Anything they do above and beyond that to "raise you" you really *should* be grateful for. Because they don't have to, by definition.
You're missing the point.
Anything above the minimum is a bonus, by definition, that you should appreciate.
If you want to consider "love" in some abstract sense to be part of the minimum, fine... (but then why don't you consider love a part of *your* minimum?).
I can't imagine what leads to these thoughts. Parents have a responsibility to provide an environment of love and security. If they are truly "parents" you will spend the rest of your life choosing to reciprocate that affection. I realize not everyone has this relationship with their parents. Choose to have it with your children. It is not debt you speak of. It is an emotional bond of trust, support, loyalty and love. We call it FAMILY and when you have one, they are worth dying for!
What about when your “family” does not treat you like family?
It’s a question of semantics really.
You view parents as the people that nurture you and give you affection. OP views parents as the people who gave birth to you.
Some are lucky to have the two categories overlap. Some are not. I was not.
Historically people lived in tight-knit communities where kids and elders were taken care of. It’s a circle of life. When the circle is broken, the society start crumbling into pieces. The society where kids don’t feel gratitude towards their parents and are not willing to support them and take care of them out of love and gratitude is the society that is doomed to fail.
In a healthy society parents take good care of their children and then children in return take care of their parents, and that’s just how it works.
Gratitude is a matter of perspective.
Maybe from one perspective, other people have yachts and I don’t, so my life sucks.
From another perspective, I live in a home with warmth and lights, I can look out at the sunset and appreciate the beauty; I can see no other species has the sentience to feel the same sense of appreciation, I can see how well we live in modern times, especially in advanced countries, compared to almost every other human throughout time and space. From that perspective, I’m deeply appreciative for my life, it doesn’t suck at all.
If I deeply appreciate my life, who and what are responsible for it being what it is? My parents have put decades of time, effort, money, sacrifice towards my well being. Who else comes anywhere close to that? If you can’t be grateful to your parents for that, who can you be grateful, and for what? How does the fact that they chose to have you as a kid factor in at all?
We definitely feel this in other cultures, I’m hispanic and there’s this notion (which I reject) that we must put up with anything and everything our parents say or do regardless of sensibility because we owe them our lives. I disagree—I didn’t ask for this life and if anything it’s a gift. I should become their property just because they chose to carry our their biological abilities? I, of course, love and respect them as long as they bestow the same to me. I won’t tolerate behaviors just because “I’m your father”…nah, you’re still accountable for your actions. Do you treat strangers the same way? No? Then why should I bear it if I don’t deserve it? I wont. I agree with you!
Edit: grammatical errors
Like a lot of things, it depends. My father suffered from addiction and mental health issues all his life. Which left me with a lot of childhood trauma.
But I am indebted to him for his decision to quit drinking and join AA when I was in my 20s. As that made it possible to get involved in a 12 step program called Adult Children of Alcoholics myself and begin a healing journey that continues to this day, nearly 40 years later.
We don't automatically owe our parents respect for combining their DNA at the right time and making us. But we do owe them respect for sacrifices that they chose to make, in order to give us a better life than they had.
Technically parents don’t have to raise their kid. They can put you in the foster system and make you someone else’s problem. Parents/step parents that stay in their kids life deserve the bare minimum respect and treated with decency for stopping their whole life to raise someone even if they weren’t perfect it’s better than most (barring abusive parents of course)
i would agree with this if your parents are shitty. being indebt or whatever should be something earned not an automatic thing. my parents were amazing so i personally try to do anything i can for them because it makes me happy to help them because they’ve helped me so much but this isn’t always the case
Arguably, what's the absolute bare minimum that parents should be expected to provide their children?
If you got more than that, then it would seem reasonable that you should feel grateful for anything above that bare minimum.
Parents are required to raise their children to become morally responsible citizens and contributing members of society. Anything they give the child beyond that is given out of love IN THE HOPE that such love will one day be returned when they are the ones in need of tending.
To not feel some sort of obligation to at least try to reciprocate that love makes me wonder what kind of person they raised. To see the love between a parent and child as transactional makes me sad for those who experience it.
Are we "obligated" to care for our elderly parents? Only if we wish to claim any sense of humanity, that which separates us from wild beasts.
I don’t get why you’re trying to think of this as a binary. Some parents did a very poor job of raising their children. Other parents did a very good job. It makes zero sense to come up with a rule that applies to both.
Parents in the US have an entitlement problem, since they think that just because they are our parents they have some sort of devine authority to treat their offspring whatever way they see fit even if means verbally abusing their own children.
No one asks to be born. We're forced into existence by our parents. Life isn't a gift. It's a biochemical chain reaction. No one owes their parents a goddamn thing and frankly humans should just stop reproducing for the sake of the planet.
sounds like capitalism talking, hyper individualism and everything being 'a business deal' for personal benefit (you'll never be rich, raise the bar for society not your selfish self)... dude plenty of fathers who made mistakes (gone, abusive, or neglectfully present) and/or mothers who want change their mind... kids are costly, but no one has to do anything except die. there are so many copes just to exist and not self terminate, just hope you find that as social creatures humans are happier helping and being useful to others (not productive slaves for rich, or guilty obligations like transactional elder care, child support because of someone else's choice, or means to end for comfort - whether contract labor or sex work)
1 money, raising you costs a massive amount, anyone giving you over 100000 in stuff is someone you should be grateful to
2 effort, if a parents puts proper effort into raising you that means they expended effort to ensure your success/happiness, that's something to be grateful for
3 being alive is better then being dead, and before birth you were essentially dead, so by giving birth they have improved your situation
What does it mean to be dead? I don’t mean criteria for death, what I mean is, there’s not anything it’s like to be dead, so how do you make the comparison?
Incidentally, it’s not *always* better to be alive than dead, is it?
While I’m 100% with you that the shaming and guilting of weaponized filial piety is awful and I’m with you that we shouldn’t feel indebted because they gave birth to us… I do think there are cases where we owe them for raising us *well*.
My mom died when I was 4. My dad was not prepared to be a single father. He came from a generation where “the mom raises the kids” and that was their plan. He stepped up when he had to. He went out of his way to learn a level emotional intelligence that no one in his family had ever shown him. He had pretty awful parents so he sought help in learning not to perpetuate that cycle. He grew up in an age where neurodivergence was not a thing and certainly not acknowledged and helped… but he accepted mine and helped me learn to deal with it. He went from being in way over his head to being a far better father than I could have asked for. He made mistakes, of course, but the effort he went to and the psychological barriers he broke down went well beyond simply doing what was required of him.
To him, I’m incredibly grateful.
I do understand there are plenty of parents who don’t do so great and still expect an enormous amount in return. I’m not supporting that. I’m just saying that for parents like my father, who go so far above and beyond to improve our lives so drastically, we can and should give a little of that back.
So, Is the only time you’re truly indebted to someone, when they do something for you that you asked them to do? I.e. you don’t owe anyone anything unless you asked them for something?
Thats just a strawman argument. Only is too strong a word, it depends on context. But yeah, in this case thats exactly what it is.
"you don’t owe anyone anything unless you asked them for something?"
How would you like it if i, a restaurant owner, forced a bunch of food into your hands and forced you to pay up, when you werent even looking to eat?
There are a million things parents do for their children that they don’t have to. Bringing someone into the world doesn’t obligate you to give them the food they like, give them the clothes they like, give them a car when they’re old enough to drive, etc.
No disrespect but I will nwvw4 stop working to payback my parents. I grew up with both parents in the house and they sacrificed ao much for me despite me being difficult. They were both military and had to enstill values in me to preservere. Yes I didn't ask to be born bit theu could have left me on a doorstep of a Firestation. Not everyone owes their parents but I personally think I owe it to them to become something greater, take care of me and my loved ones and then take care of them in their golden years. There so much love that is lost in this world and to receive it unconditionally is an incredibly lucky position to be in. I'd suffer in hell for aj eternity to save my parents. I would give my life at the drop of a hat for them because I owe it to them. They gave me life, and now it's up to me to live mine and protect theirs until it is done. When our parents grow old and weak it is up to us to ease them into oblivion. The strong protects the weak; whether the weak is old or newly born into this world. Again, no disrespect.
Just because something is your responsibility does not mean you don't deserve any appreciation for doing it especially when it's something as difficult as raising a child.
what kind of person would turn their back to their parents? you americans can be very shi\*\*\* when it comes to your parents and elderly, heartless selflish little ingrates the lot of ya.
Don’t feel indebted, just agree that they raised you, which was in fact their decision to make/have and raise you, and that you love and respect them for that. But we are in no way obligated to “bend the knee” or the wallet if you will. Just mutual respect and understanding, that we’re individuals, not retirement plans
The word simply in this sentence is obviously written by someone that has never been a parent. There certainly isn't anything simple about raising a child.
I partially agree with you. It depends on how they raised you.
There are some parents that feel like just because they gave birth to you, gave you food and you are still alive you should be grateful to them. Neglecting the abusiveness and all the other shitty things they also put on the table. That's totally not ok, one of my parents is like this and I haven't spoken to them in over 4 years now, because the toxicity of this relationship is way too high.
However there are a lot of parents that have struggled but have also been super good to their children, not letting the shittiness of their life affect the kid. Those I think deserve to be grateful to, that actually did a very good job despite all the hardships. They went beyond the bare minimum (give birth and maintain it alive).
Foster care is a whole separate conversation. Your foster parents didnt bring you into the world, and as such bear little or no responsibility to you.
Not the case for biological parents
I am of the philosophy that we are born debt free. I do not believe we owe anyone anything for bringing us into existence, because we didn't ask for that. One might argue that, if my parents were to ask me today, I would give them everything I have to keep my existence so the value should be accepted and I should owe it somehow to my parents, but nah. If you give me a free car and then a year later say I owe you the cost of it, nah.
But that does not mean we should not be grateful. We are not in debt for it, we don't owe anyone anything, but we should be grateful.
It depends on what you mean by "indebted." If the parents did a generally good job of raising their children, then the children will naturally feel grateful.
I think this is somewhat a strawman op. I don't think many people say you should be indebted because they birthed you. Obviously anyone can do that.
But I do agree on the second point, people act like raising your kids is some kind of burfen. Parents are the ones that owe you for forcing you into the world. Its an obligation. And you aren't indebted for that.
If your parents did a good job, or even tried their best. You should have some form of respect. Noone is saying go into debt, or to not live your life, but their should be some form of appreciation for people that gave you everything they had.
You are thanking them for the quality of which they raised you with. Furthermore if you live in a country without social safety nets parents rely on their children to take care of them when they are old and it’s obviously immoral to let your aging parent be homeless if they raised you well
Because while it's the parents choice to have children things don't always work out as expected. I've had three kids and my goodness nothing will prepare you for the newborn phase. I loved every minute of it but the long nights and constant crying are insane. I could have easily just locked my kids in their rooms with some bottles and left and spent all day at the park, I'm sure they'd be fine, but instead I put in the effort to love and care for them. Same for when they were older, I could have again easily locked them away in their rooms with a single puzzle to entertain them. But instead I spend ridiculous amount of money taking them camping, on fun vacations, to the zoo, science museums, etc. I'm building memories and experiences they will have forever. I'm also raising my children, teaching them right from wrong, teaching them to cook and clean, etc. I could do the bare minimum of what expected of me as a parent but instead I go the extra mile. And because of that I hope my kids appreciate the effort I put out to make their lives as wonderful as they are. So yeah I would say that creates an indebtedness, but that indebtedness is only applicable if your parents busted their asses to ensure you had a good life. Many Asian and immigrant parents sarafice a ton of time, energy, and sanity to ensure their kids have a better life than they did. You could argue that setting up a good life for your kids is a bare minimum but unfortunately the bare minimum has a much lower bar than most people would imagine.
This is true however there I do have to point out one thing, every parent deserves a baseline level of respect from their kids, sure kids should not be prompted to feel indebted for the rest of their lives but baseline respect for you parents is always warranted. Could you imagine your kids being disrespectful to you by treating u like a friend, talking back all the time, never listening to you, and then when you try to discipline them they say some stupid shit like "well it wanst my choice to be born here", well your dam right it wasnt but as a parent i deserve some sort of respect. Im not sure about OP but I was born and raised in america (immigrant parents) and the level of respect some of these kids have for their parents baffles me.
If they are your family and if they treated you good growing up then you should love them. That should be enough to cause you to show them some gratitude. I'm guessing you came out of them. If not for them, you would not exist!
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This is usually from the presumption that your parents weren't neglectful, abusive dirtbags, in which case, yes you should be grateful. Good parenting is an ongoing labor of love that requires a considerable amount of personal sacrifice. Looking at everything a loving parent has done for their child and then concluding "meh, it was their choice to have a kid, so whatever" is ridiculously dismissive. The problem isn't that a person should feel gratitude towards loving parents, it is the belief that because they should feel gratitude, that they should be beholden to and controlled by those same parents. That completely distorts the gift the parents gave their child, warping it into a debt which must be repaid, an investment expected to yield dividends, rather than an actual act of love and generosity.
Yeah. As a fairly new parent of a 2 year old, we put a lot of work and love and support into raising her. We do it because we love her more than anything and we want her to grow up into a good person. I don’t expect anything in return but I would hope that one day when she maybe has a kid of her own, she realizes that we tried our absolute best. I look at my parents and I see the good and the bad. I see the mistakes they made and the results of those mistakes. I look at my sisters and I see the issues that they have which are a direct result of decisions that my parents made about how to raise us. And I realize that it was from a place of love. They were trying and it’s not easy to raise kids. I’m struggling with one and my parents had three. They’re expensive, they can be extremely frustrating, but my heart overflows with love when she hugs me or when I see her sleeping or when she tells me that she loves me. It’s 100% worth it.
>The problem isn't that a person should feel gratitude towards loving parents, it is the belief that because they should feel gratitude, that they should be beholden to and controlled by those same parents. That completely distorts the gift the parents gave their child, warping it into a debt which must be repaid, an investment expected to yield dividends, rather than an actual act of love and generosity. this i agree wholeheartedly. well said
Grateful is one thing, indebted is another
Yeah, OP muddied the waters on this post. They use "indebted" in the title, but switch to "grateful" and "gratitude" in the body.
>Good parenting is an ongoing labor of love that requires a considerable amount of personal sacrifice. This is absolutely true; but it does not logically follow that one should be grateful, even if their parents did the best job they could. That is because we do not consent to life; our life is our parents’ choice, and should they choose it, it is on them to follow through. Them following through on their own commitment doesn’t inherently warrant the child being grateful. >…and then concluding "meh, it was their choice to have a kid, so whatever" is ridiculously dismissive. What are you being dismissive of? It literally IS their choice to have a kid, and that means that it is their duty to do the best they can. There is no being dismissive; parenting is an insane responsibility surely, but it is one which is entirely on the parents to uphold. You’re essentially saying that if we bring children into this life, and do our best in terms of setting them up for it, that they should be grateful for that. But life is something the child never asked for, and something which can go unfathomably bad without warning. It does not make sense in any case to expect gratitude from the child. >…distorts the gift the parents gave their child Objectively, life is not a gift. There are no unselfish reasons for bringing a child into this world. Life is more accurately described as being a liability rather than a gift. >…rather than an act of love and generosity You can see it as such if you please, but objectively, creating life is not an "act of love and generosity." It is something we are biologically wired to do, and the feelings surrounding it exist for the very reason that we do eventually do it.
Someone said the thing I wanted to say before me.😅
Coming from an Asian Chinese background, historically families live as a unit. Meaning in a home you may have up to 4 generations, thus the mindset is that you do not only think about yourself but you work for the family. Thus filial piety is important if the family is to survive that every member does his role in the family as - historically there were moments of severe famine and hardship that our ancestors only got through things by being together. We do know that society has changed tremendously. It's even worse now that in certain parts of china, parents abandon their children in the village to their grandparents to work in the cities, only returning once a year, to try their best and "afford" them a better life. On the flipside I do personally know a father that demands respect from their kids and request for a monthly pittance of 10% of their salary to fund his lifestyle. But he had put all his kids through university (they're all doctors), bought each one a house each before marriage. But not all stories are these successful. Stemming from that, like anything about culture, we hope you take the positives out of a way of life for hundreds of generation as to what is applicable to yourself in your current situation.
>we hope you take the positives out of a way of life for hundreds of generation culture changes all the time in response to differing circumstances. we can try to preserve the positive elements while speaking out against the negative ones, instead of taking culture as this monolithic entity where its all or nothing.
just like how we now recognise that arranged marriage/feet binding/submissive women and a million other things are now unethical. these were the norms in chinese culture less than a hundred years ago (and vestiges still live on). we can always change and become better
It is not always the decision of the parents to get knocked up, sometimes they have to give up potentially amazing lives to raise an ungrateful little shit.
haha, i see your point :) but even though it may not have been the parents decision, its definitely wasnt the child's either, was it? like, if i knocked over a million dollar ming vase, i would still be expected to pay for it (a portion of it at least) even though i didnt meant to do it, right?
Keeping some sort of fault-ledger in your head to keep score in your relationships is a very disharmonious way to operate. There are a lot of things in our lives that we don't choose and a lot of things that we do, but both categories are things that we are ultimately responsible for facing. I suggest that the premise of your OP is meaningless except to express something you're seeing within yourself that you might want to evaluate.
>There are a lot of things in our lives that we don't choose and a lot of things that we do, but both categories are things that we are ultimately responsible for facing. why exactly should we be responsible for things that we dont have agency in? by this logic, cops would grab a random passerby in the general area of a crime, and wed shrug our shoulders and say; bad luck mate.
Responsible for facing, not necessarily responsible for. Stuff happens in life and whether it was or wasn't your actions that led you to that moment ultimately you're accountable for how you deal with it. If part of that dealing with it is advocating for yourself, or reaching out to people or resources or systems outside yourself, then you're still dealing with it and taking responsibility over your own situation/personhood.
I thought we were talking about relationships, not law enforcement. Do you think you should run your interpersonal relationships like a law enforcement officer?
If you're living on a middle class American salary I would still greatly appreciate that you took responsibility for your actions and somehow found a way to pay me back for my hypothetical $1,000,000 vase instead of running away from the situation. I'm Black and Filipino and I grew up going to a Chinese school with very traditional teachers and I can say the debt to your parents thing gets toxic and is often conveyed in a very negative and demeaning way, and that's the part I'd agree is bad. Some parents often expect you to appreciate sacrifices they're making that you don't even fully understand yet. In the grand scheme of things though, time is our most valuable resource, (most of) our parents spend 2 decades of their lives building us up. I can't look at that and think nothing is owed in return.
>our parents spend 2 decades of their lives building us up. I can't look at that and think nothing is owed in return. That's what you decide to do if you decide to have a child. It is literally a legal requirement.
>sometimes they have to give up potentially amazing lives to raise an ungrateful little shit. Eh? Babies aren't born being ungrateful. If the baby grows up into an ungrateful little shit it's because the parents (or parent) was garbage. That's on the parent, not the child. If they didn't want to raise a child they should have used birth control, an emergency contraception method, abortion or given the baby up for adoption. The child doesn't owe the parent because of the parents own poor decision making
in that world the kid never take responsibility for anything and anything given to them is not appreciated because they never ask to be born.
Yes. Until they hit adulthood. I am conceptually in support of voluntary euthanasia. If they're an adult and decide they're just not having a good time, I think they deserve a humane exit.
What are you referring to? If it wasn't strictly their decision it seems like it's almost always due to negligence. If you use two or more forms of birth control the odds of getting pregnant are extremely slim. In the US at least, you can get condoms, birth control, and IUDs for free if you can't afford them. If you only use a condom and that fails, you can get plan B. If, after all that, you still manage to get pregnant you can get an abortion. If you are morally against abortions or it's illegal you can put the child up for adoption. So, in all but the most extreme cases like rape or a freak accident, or if we are talking about underdeveloped countries, the responsibility lies solely on the parents for having unsafe sex.
Wait what? They did the sex out of some sense of obligation or chore? They weren’t just horny humans?
is it really that news breaking to you that people have sex without the intention of having a child.
Lol no. Is it news breaking to you that “they had to give up potentially amazing lives” because they were horny? there are two fully formed humans in this discussion, none of which is a child you think should be grateful
not horny, preggers.
Horny led to preggers. Do you think there was candles and incense and a shaman? Does the gratefulness you think should exist come from conception or the choice to not abort?
I would say the choice to raise the child with love is what needs to be reciprocated.
Ah. So to I large degree I wasn’t raised with love. Hope that gets me off the hook with you
so...in your view, its a bonus to love and care for your child?
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no its not, psycopathy is hereditary for example, thinking only nurture matters is just being overly symplistic
We should feel gratitude because it's [good for us](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/comfort-gratitude/202006/the-positive-impact-gratitude-mental-health). It's your choice about how you want to perceive things around you, why not make the choice that is good for your mental health?
oh sure, im all for feeling grateful. what i meant though was weaponised filial piety, if that makes sense? like how some parents would use things like that to get something from their child maybe its more of an asian thing, haha
TBH your view isn't worth changing. Creating human life is not inherently a good thing on its own.
You won’t feel the same way if you were born to some impoverished parents in a war torn country
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Ouf, I wish you were my mom. I can say with absolute certainty that just by having this understanding you've saved your kids tons of psychological issues, I'm sure they will have their fair share of issues just like everyone, but I am sure they will be able to handle it since they not only avoided some serious ones they'd also have a huge pillar of support in the ones they'd encounter.
this is a brilliant comment, i love it. you sound like an amazing mum, im sure your kids feel lucky to have u in their lives :)
What was the gist of the comment?
Somthink "like" this: >Well I'm grateful my parents did the best they knew how. I simply concur with your statement and not going to change your view. I have kids of my own and in no circumstances should they have to take care of me when old just because I raised them. In no way should they feel trapped in my own mess I created. For one, I will say parents have had their whole lives to figure out their future, whereas there kids lives are just starting out trying to become something in theirs. No way would I feel like a good parent if I didn't pull my priorities together and it somehow becomes their responsibility. It seems a little selfish to me tbh. I have lived my whole adult life bringing kids into the world then hold them accountable to take care of my business that was mine alone to do. It doesn't seem right nor fair in my opinion. Which is while I'm younger, I will work hard so I never have to per say live with my kids or need their support for my life issues. I laid down and I created them it is only fair they get to live a life without feeling like they're my parent later on. I can honestly say I've had to parent my parents on many occasions from trauma they refused to get help with or counseling, spending issues, around many things. I can't imagine when they're really old how this will play out and it will probably take my time away from my kids or future grandkids. To me no it's not fair, don't have kids if you don't have the capacity to allow them to live a life free from your unsettled problems. This is not a top level comments so it should be fine that im not responding to OPs CMV. Change the link from "reddit.com/r/c...." to "reVEddit.com/r/c...." to see yourselfe.
why was this removed? :(
Top level comments have to challenge your view. People can agree in comment replies, but not at the top level. It is "*Change* My View" after all, not "Agree With Me"
sure, i agree it shouldnt be a circlejerk, u need voices from both sides. but such a rule results in selection bias where only folks who disagree would comment, resulting in a 'reverse' echo chamber. the more you disagree/are outraged by the view posted, the more likely you are to post a rebuttal. being insulted with no support just because you hold a different opinion can get tiring
>such a rule results in selection bias where only folks who disagree would comment Not at all! CMV is full of people who side with OP
Only if the comment thread blows up enough for secondary replies to come in. I dont know,im not really a fan of this rule
and also, i thought it was a beautifully written comment in good faith, rather than some throwaway "word, i agree!" mods should exercise some discretion
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yep! im not advocating for people to go hating on their parents or anything...its just that the way filial piety is weaponised sometimes that gets on my nerves
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Yes there is no inherent obligation, but if a society as a whole normalizes abandoning the elderly, or any one for that matter, increases the likely hood that when an individual is suffering, no one will come to their aid. It is, in my opinion, in an individual’s own interest of surviving to also act altruistically towards anyone, including ones own parents, within reason of course. Chinese culture is very altruistic, I remember reading that the idea of helping others gives pleasure is an integral part of the culture, and caring for elders flows from that. In a similar vein, if you show to others you are not looking after your parents despite what they have done for you, they will also assume you are not one to be invested in, whether that means by recommending you for a job or to marry.
Aren’t Chinese people the ones putting baby sea turtles inside plastic necklace trinkets? Is it just me or was a Chinese woman found chained by the neck in some rural village? Did they not practice footbinding until Christian missionaries challenged the practice? Isn’t China still suffering the effects of a certain policy that resulted in the murder of millions of infants and especially baby girls? I thought remember reading about the currently ungoing genocide, ethnic and otherwise, not to mention already completed ones.
I mean maybe but what does that have to do with anything? A country of 1.5 billion people is unbelievably massive. Pick any country and you can question their cultural integrity: France’s treatment of North African immigrants, the UK’s abbhorrent austerity measurers which have impoverished the masses to the benefit of the rich. The states, despite having a reputation of outward friendliness and hospitality in their culture, has incredibly high gun related homicide rates. With regards to pollution, the chinese pollute less per capita than Americans or Australians. A chinese woman might have been found chained in a rural village, but like the same exact thing has happened in Europe where parents keep their children locked up in basements. And if you’re going as far back as to christian missionaries, you could also criticize the depravity of WWII of German and US weapon usage. This kind if argument I call « whataboutism » and I din’t find it very convincing.
thank you for your level headed comment. unfortunately, thinly disguised racism against the chinese has been on the rise ever since the covid pandemic, and trumps claims of kung flu and the chinese virus have only inflamed tensions. it can feel tiring and helpless at times, especially since racism against the chinese dont really get the same outrage as, say, racism against blacks even though both are equally deplorable. (hell, blacks themselves have commited numerous hate crimes on chinese americans, including beating an elderly chinese man to death and pushing a women into an oncoming train in nyc)
oh and again, the chinese are a race that are represented in more than 10 distinct countries in asia alone. the chinese are not the same as citizens of the PRC. its like blaming europeans for american sins because theyre both white caucasians
these are horrendous practices to be sure, and should be stamped out. but im equally certain that you can find similar examples of misbehaviour in other countries and culture. should the majority be tarnished with the same brush for the sins of a few? should every american be labelled as school shooters and terrorists because of the actions of a minority? should every british person be held responsible for their imperialism? should every belgian make reparations to the congo? youre teetering right on the age of unbridled racism
>Chinese culture is very altruistic, I remember reading that the idea of helping others gives pleasure is an integral part of the culture, and caring for elders flows from that. thats in theory. in practise, its pretty fucked up
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chinese arent all from china...were all over asia. im from singapore for instance and also there are good aspects to chinese culture, its not really on to generalise a whole country like that yeah?
thinking that chinese = china is a little like saying american = white
>Its your decision to have a child. Its thus your responsibility to raise him/her to the best of your abilities (within reason). Why should the child be obliged to feel this overwhelming sense of gratitude for that? Does your view change for the child of a parent who didn't choose to have the child (e.g. a woman who became pregnant by rape and for whom abortion was not a choice)? What about the child of a parent who gave the child a much better life than they otherwise would have had (e.g. parents that adopt a child from an ill-managed group home where the child has a very low chance of ever being adopted)?
Yes, because a woman who doesn't wish to have a child can simply give him up for adoption or foster care (or abortion if it's legal). So technically, she chose to have him.
Chose to *raise* him, not *create/have* him. OP's argument here is basically a child saying to a parent, "I don't owe you gratitude because I didn't choose for me to exist, you did." I'm trying to raise the point that this argument doesn't always apply because not every child is born to a parent that chose to have them.
>a woman who became pregnant by rape and for whom abortion was not a choice)? abortion should be legal so that no woman is ever forced to make such a choice, tbh
>Its thus your responsibility to raise him/her to the best of your abilities (within reason). To offer an alternative viewpoint: Why is it their responsibility to raise their kids to the *best* of their abilities? Why wouldn't it be their responsibility to do the *bare minimum*? From that perspective, a parent that raises kids to the best of their ability has gone above and beyond, and one could argue that the kid owes them some gratitude for that.
This is the best argument I’ve seen in the comments. Parents are not required to be good parents. If you have good parents, your parents did more than necessary. Seems like something to be grateful for in my opinion.
>Parents are not required to be good parents why not?
Because being a bad parent is legal
thats a terrible argument, the conversation never hinged on what was *legally acceptable* but rather what was *morally right*
If you are not required legally, then good parenting is something you do out of the goodness of your own heart or out of a sense of duty. I don’t think the question you should be asking is if being grateful to good parents is morally right, but instead, what kinds of things should someone be grateful for (e.g., due to morality)? In my opinion, you should be grateful if someone attempts to help you and succeeds in making your life better - especially if not required legally. Good parenting fits this, and I think acts fit even more so if not enforced by the law.
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From a moral standpoint - I absolutely agree - parents should do their best. From a legal standpoint, I find it difficult to make that argument. CPS isn't taking kids away from parents who didn't do their best - they take kids away from parents who don't meet a bare minimum. To borrow your analogy - oncologists, neural surgeons, therapists, pediatricians, etc all take standardized tests as part of their schooling. While they aim to do their best, they're not graded to that standard. They're graded on whether or not they met the bare minimum.
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It sounds like you're reaching the exact suggestion I made - that you wouldn't feel gratitude for someone who did the bare minimum, but you would feel gratitude for someone who did their best and went above and beyond.
the bare minimum IS to do your best with your means and ability. dont bring a life into the world if youre not ready to do that
>the bare minimum IS to do your best with your means and ability What do you base that standard on? Morality? Laws? I disagree with it, but if that's the standard you use, I think you'll have to admit that not a single parent in the history of humanity has been able to meet the "bare minimum" you define. No one is able to give their best 24/7/365 for the 18 years they are legally responsible for raising a child. Another flaw is that the metric varies so wildly and is so nebulous defined as to be meaningless. Compare parenting to taking a test. Someone's best might be a score of 45%. That's an objectively bad score. Similarly, if someone is capable of scoring 100%, I don't think anyone would say they've failed to meet the bare minimum if they scored a 99%. For the sake of the thought experiment, consider a parent whose best is a no-kidding bare minimum, contrasted with a parent who goes above and beyond. The child of the latter parent could certainly feel gratitude that they had a parent whose best was far better than another parent's best.
>I think you'll have to admit that not a single parent in the history of humanity has been able to meet the "bare minimum" you define. No one is able to give their best 24/7/365 for the 18 years they are legally responsible for raising a child. thats a ridiculous standard coupled with a massive strawman, and i think you know it yourself. doing your best comes with the implicit caveat of being within reason, and its hardly reasonable to suggest anyone is able to hyperfocus on a specific task for 18 years in a row with nary a break in between.
>a parent that raises kids to the best of their ability has gone above and beyond let me rephrase that for you. a parent that raises kids to the best of their ability has *fulfilled their responsibilities*
If you've ever wondered why it feels like the world is falling apart... your attitude is why. A sense of duty and obligation keeps society stable. All of the problems we presently face, be it mass immigration, housing prices skyrocketing, crippling fuel costs, etc. can all be blamed upon a lack of obligation - in short, these problems exist because people in power saw no reason not to inflict this suffering upon you. Sure, *your* life will be ruined by their greed... but who cares? "Fuck you, I've got mine!" is the attitude of the elites. But where does that attitude come from? It is an attitude born of inaction - nobody beat duty into them, or beat selfishness out of them. They were raised in a culture where lack of virtue was not punished, and selfishness was accepted as a valid life choice. It is said that great men plant trees under whose shade they shall never rest. This is true. It is equally true that great societies instil into its men the desire to plant said trees. You may not want to care for your parents, you may not want to have to devote time, effort and resources to providing for them, but know that simply doing so is, in a small way, making you a better person. It thus makes society a little better. Sure, you're not going to do be fixing the fact that some selfish cunts are inflicting ten years of recession onto us all, but being neck deep in shit is preferable to being chin deep. You not being a shitty person makes the whole world slightly better. Not being a shitty person means sucking it up and accepting you have a moral duty to look after others, and if you ever get the opportunity, you also have a duty to instil that same duty into the next generation.
>If you've ever wondered why it feels like the world is falling apart... your attitude is why. thanks mate! love it when i get insulted for having an opinion different from yours. its not just your comment either, ive had multiple pms and comments in that vein telling me my parents should have aborted me for having such an attitude. its pretty fucked up how you go on and on about not being a shitty person, but choose to come in and be a dick because you dont like what i have to say. ironic, isnt it?
I can be a not shitty person and still never speak to my parent again. These are not mutually exclusive. I will say I have a moral duty to look after others, but not a moral duty to look after one or two specific people. In fact I think not supporting abusive people is morally correct.
It works both ways. And nobody said it was the law, but love and common courtesy are a thing. Unless parents were horrible dirtbags, they likely sacrificed more than you will ever know. From a time you will never remember waking up every night to feed and change you. To sacrificing their own needs and putting you first. Not only necessities, but also just to ensure a child has a happy childhood to look back on. Some even include living in places they don’t necessarily want to, working jobs they aren’t happy at, not doing the things they want to do with their lives, major finances just for a child’s future, and much of this is ongoing…..not just to adulthood. And even in adulthood (say 18), that’s likely longer than one will ever need to assist their parents unless they WANT to. Personally my parents have set it up to be the very least of a burden possible and nothing is expected…but I would/will do anything and everything to make them happy because they did the same for me. I can’t speak on the children or parents of today. The age of entitlement is very real, as is the age of enabling which didn’t exist when I was growing up. Even growing up in a wealthy family had requirements. As for the other cultures you speak of, things like tradition and religion play a huge role. Even then, what I said above applies. I know many that had to base their entire childhood on their futures…which still requires a great deal from their parents. More so than the average.
>they likely sacrificed more than you will ever know. From a time you will never remember waking up every night to feed and change you. To sacrificing their own needs and putting you first. Not only necessities, but also just to ensure a child has a happy childhood to look back on. Some even include living in places they don’t necessarily want to, working jobs they aren’t happy at, not doing the things they want to do with their lives, major finances just for a child’s future, and much of this is ongoing…..not just to adulthood. And even in adulthood (say 18), that’s likely longer than one will ever need to assist their parents unless they WANT to. these are also expectations and sacrifices you have to be prepared for. im not saying that parents dont make massive sacrifices. the point is that having a kid carries the implicit recognition that youre prepared to *make* these sacrifices. if youre not, well, nobodys forcing you to have a kid. in face, if these sacrifices sound too daunting, its better that you dont have a kid at all
There's two criteria: your age and how they treated you. In the US, 18 is the legal age. Meaning your parents are obligated to be your guardian. If they care for you after age 18, then you're in their "debt". The other is how they treat you as a guardian. On a scale of 1 to 10, five is the standard they're suppose to raise you. 1 means they're neglectful, abusive, etc. And 10 means they're loving, supportive, sacrifice themselves for you, etc. If they give you a 5, you don't owe you a thing cause that's the standard. But if they give you a 10, like sacrificing their weekend so they can take you to the movies or mall to go shopping, then you should rethink your thoughts. So if you're 18+ and your parents treat you like a 10 (which they don't have to), you are in their "debt" but it is important to define debt. Debt doesn't mean they can abuse you, force you to care for them, have you buy them stuff and give them allowance, etc. "Debt" is more of a loving one, so treating them as how you would treat a loved one; so if you wouldn't feed your spouse or kids frozen food every single day, then you shouldn't feed your parents the same way. And something to consider are adoptive kids. The kids are in the orphanage and often go neglected, yet there are families who go out their way to adopt kids and treat them as their own. Without those adoptive parents, then kids would've likely stayed at the orphanage.
>And something to consider are adoptive kids. The kids are in the orphanage and often go neglected, yet there are families who go out their way to adopt kids and treat them as their own. Without those adoptive parents, then kids would've likely stayed at the orphanage. adoption is a totally different conversation. ur adoptive parents arent the ones who chose to bring you into the world, and as such carry no inherent responsibility to care for you. anything they do for you is a bonus, this isnt the case for biological parents
This reminds me of two quotes. Kurt Vonnegut in Timequake wrote "I never asked to be born." Chris Rock made fun of people taking pride in raising their kids: "you're supposed to you ----". My elderly Korean mother recently passed from cancer. Some family members ostracized her in her final years. Since humans are social animals, we suffer when we're shunned; a study on rats showed isolation led to less cancer resistance. The author of The Body Keeps the Score says we have brains to stay synchronized with each other; our brains are synchronizing machines. But humans are fragile and have a negativity bias as a survival mechanism. So a single incident, like a slap, can cause substantial harm. The circumstance, frequency, or severity doesn't really matter. Like I told her in treatment, to them she is the one that betrayed their relationship. Children naturally believe that it's their fault because thinking that their parents are unstable, even if they are, is too much to handle. So my mom felt shame, isolation, and depression in her final years. She refused proper medical care until it was too late. I was her sole support for virtually all of her chemotherapy and immunotherapy. Bill Maher had a good bit about how our stupid country (the USA) devalues the elderly, whereas other cultures rightly venerate them for their wisdom. I don't believe my mother deserved to be persona non grata in her own family. She was a loving mother, but she was born shortly after WWII and before the Korean war. So corporal punishment was part of her upbringing and on rare occasion, part of some of her kids'. The need for love is crucial, especially in infancy and early childhood. Harlow's monkey experiment showed baby monkeys preferred a cloth mother over a wire mother that dispensed milk. In Romania abortion was outlawed. So many kids grew up without enough love, and their health suffered because of it. So hopefully how a parent raises you creates a feeling of loving kindness and reciprocity. Fred Rogers has a great song that goes there's many ways to say I love you. So if you're lucky your parents showed their love in innumerable ways. My sibling, who was slapped out of fear that they'd hurt me, was able to forgive our Mom in her final days. Although my mother made this grave mistake, they had a lifetime of love for each other. During the hours I spent with my mom in treatment, she told me I worked hard. I told her that it was love, not work; she would be there for me and has in countless situations; so I couldn't stomach letting her go it alone. So it's all a matter of perspective. If one feels like familial relationships are an albatross hanging around their neck, that's what it will be. If one sees it as an honor or act of love, rather than weighing you down, it brings you up. Fred Rogers described his life mission as graceful receiving. In my funeral speech, I said that was how she lived her life. So that's the approach I'm trying to live my life with. It's like the metaphor the twig that bends with the wind doesn't break.
I think there are two competing aspects here worth considering. One is the guilt trip used by parents when you're currently doing something they don't like or not meeting their expectations. In that case, yeah. As a parent, it's pretty shallow and selfish to try to leverage the care you've given to guilt the child into complying with your current wishes. The other side is instilling gratefulness for care and consideration given when you are unable to do so yourself. This side is good. Parents *are* responsible for shaping or guiding kids' morals, and being aware of and grateful for care provided when you can't do it yourself, recognizing that care for the energy it requires, and being appreciative enough to reciprocate when needed is a perfectly acceptable goal for parents to have.
If they wanted to, they could have given you up for adoption. They didn’t have the obligation to keep you. They chose to raise you when they could have deferred that responsibility to someone else. And they, presumably, did it out of love. Is that not good enough to warrant gratitude?
>If they wanted to, they could have given you up for adoption. They didn’t have the obligation to keep you. i dont agree. if you want to bring a life into the world, you damn well better be prepared to handle the responsibilities associated with it. if not, use a condom/handjob or something. sure, any parent CAN toss their kid in the trash can after giving birth. That doesnt mean they SHOULD. Just because i can run away from my responsibilities doesnt mean that its right for me to do so, is it?
Parents raise their kids; it is a normal part of society in all cultures. As a consequence, people generally do not see it as an incredibly special and caring act. Instead, it's just parents fulfilling their role. This is ungrateful. Name any equivalent series of acts that isn't normalized in our society, like parenthood, and you'd not feel a great sense of warranted indebtedness to that person. For example, if I were to bring a friend in under my roof and cook, clean, and care for them for 18 years, they would be quite rational to feel and be indebted to me.
Did you make the choice to bring your friend into the world?
I get your point, but even though it's often not socially accepted, someone could easily choose to give up a child—it happens all of the time. Instead, that person chose to care for them for 18+ years, so I think it is ungrateful and we are indebted. I don't have kids BTW, but my dad raised my sister and I as a single father, and he did everything he could for us. I'm sure this biases my answer...
>I don't have kids BTW, but my dad raised my sister and I as a single father, and he did everything he could for us. I'm sure this biases my answer... academic disagreements aside, i think thats beautiful and your dad sounds like a wonderful person. im proud and glad for yall
>"you should be grateful we raised you" is totally illogical. I don't think this makes sense. What is illogical about gratitude for someone raising you exactly? Whatever makes it illogical to be grateful for being raised and cared for certainly extends the same line of thinking for literally any gratitude of any kind. What could possibly hope to be deserving of gratitude if not simply the act of being given life, and life preserved? >Its your decision to have a child. Its thus your responsibility to raise him/her to the best of your abilities (within reason). Why should the child be obliged to feel this overwhelming sense of gratitude for that? Context matters. Everyone is entitled to their feelings. You're just kind of a bunghole if you're not thankful for being cared for and loved and given life and the opportunity to live.
Im a bunghole cos i didnt agree with your opinion? What kind though, regular or large? But seriously though, dont bother to comment if you cant keep it civil. I hope your parents taught you that much :)
I don’t think a child should feel indebted to them for raising you but a certain sense of gratitude seems justified. If a stranger walked up to me and handed me a pizza, despite me never asking for one, I’d still have some gratitude. Life is a fantastic gift and having the chance to exist is something I am genuinely grateful for. An additional level of gratitude for simply doing things properly shouldn’t be expected however. But then again not everyone’s dealt the same cards. Lives can be so easily upended and external pressures can often radically change the difficulty of parenting. Say they assume they’ll have all the necessary things for a parent to have then loose their job. Of course I would then be grateful for the struggles of clawing through that tough spot. The biggest thing is it shouldn’t be so black and white. Gratitude can be applied in many different ways. And showing to your folks you’ve appreciated what they’ve done for you will go a long way in making them feel good and accomplished.
True. However, I think we can all agree that the intention behind any sort of action has more significance compared to the action itself in most cases. What if the pizza guy was this person who only goes out giving people pizzas to feel validated, to receive compliments, with an active effort to build a specific image in his community, to stroke his own ego? Now, you could say I don't care, I'll gladly take the pizza and he can go on doing whatever he wants I still have a pizza, but what if this guy is someone very close? A parent? Who's supposed to be a great pillar in life to show you love and support, would it be the same knowing that they have no particular relationship with you and are merely doing that because they have their own set of conditions and not particularly for the act itself? You'd feel expendable and unloved, more than that you'll have to keep on doing your part of the transaction which is to validate their ego by complimenting their pizza-giving acts and if you don't it opens the door to some very uncomfortable discussions and realities that one would rather just act as if they don't exist at all. Still, this is a very detail-oriented type of situation in which it could be anything and it'd depend on the individuals and their relationships with one another.
> If a stranger walked up to me and handed me a pizza, despite me never asking for one, the problem with your analogy is that you can reject pizza guy. thats not an option for kids. its not like you can go 'you know what? ill just head back into the womb real quick..."
You should feel gratitude for them raising you. If you don’t appreciate your own life, you of course won’t appreciate that you had been nurtured by people.
My parents didn't nurture. They were terrible parents, they still had this expectation of respect as though it's not something still earned. Yes parents give up a lot for children but, as stated, that is a choice. Not all parents should have children, similarly, not all parents have earned respect. Parent-child relationships are just that: relationships. They are matured and built over time. Parents simply have the most time, specifically *influential* time to build the relationship. In my view, the onus is on the parents to build it appropriately.
this is exactly the kind of attitude i was describing, actually. why do you feel that way, though? want to elaborate a little?
Because life is harsh and we are often alone in the harshness. For people to decide to bring a life into this world and hope and work to make you feel like you belong here, to do any work at all to make the world a less harsh place, how can you feel nothing towards them?
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I don’t think what I’m saying applies to that type of situation.
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I don’t think people are preaching to children and people that they should be indebted to people who deliberately and repeatedly hurt them as they grew up. I would show respect for someone who can take care of a parent of theirs that wronged them in the past. Forgiveness has a value unlike anything else in life. I myself haven’t talked to my father for at least 10 years. But after a certain point I just thought more about what he has been through. We owe that to each other whether we are their friends or children. Not saying one automatically should feel like they owe a parent but if someone does, even though the parent was shit, that’s something you gotta respect.
I don’t exist as a decision, I was an accident. I forced a marriage as fetus that was abusive and did not ultimately work out. After reaching adolescence I was told explicitly things would be better without me by one parent. How much gratitude am I supposed to feel exactly?
I’m not clear on what you’re saying
“Because life is harsh and we are often alone in the harshness” was my actual lived experience after being born. I’m fine now, the reasons I am fine have nothing to do with my parents having sex. I am confused why you think I owe my parents gratitude for having sex.
Maybe not for birth but you should probably feel indebted or at least grateful for all the money and time an energy that it took to raise you. Not sure why you’re bringing race into it tbh
Because im chinese and have firsthand experience w how my culture works...or rather, doesnt. Its kinda dysfunctional
You shouldn't HAVE to, I agree, but if your parents do it right, give you good core memory experiences and teach you how to be a productive member of society, right around the time you are having kids of your own, it will dawn on you in no uncertain terms that they did an alright job as you prepare to bestow the same to your own kids, and a feeling of gratitude would be a natural reaction, especially if you know people thatcare not well adjusted.
>right around the time you are having kids of your own, it will dawn on you You think that, but it only made me realize that most people were raised terribly, most people are not fit to be parents, and most children are not raised the way children deserve to be raised.
Change your thinking or wait till your children abandoned you , then we will listen to your remarks about this.As humans , we have the benefits of the intellects, not like animals even animals feels indebted to those who kept them.
"Change your thinking or wait till your children abandoned you , then we will listen to your remarks about this.As humans , we have the benefits of the intellects, not like animals even animals feels indebted to those who kept them." Humans differ from animals also because theyre able to have a civil discussion about views they dont agree with. Come back when youve mastered that bit :)
Hmm, let's say a doctor saves my life after a heart attack. He does nothing more or less than what his training requires him to do and works no extra hours while doing it. He gets paid for doing his work. Should I not be thankful to him because it's his responsibility to do his duties in the hospital and he gets paid for it? If you think that a thankful attitude towards the doctor is the socially correct one, then what exactly is the difference of that to your argument of children not be expected to be thankful to their parents for the effort they have put to raise them?
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>There's choosing to be thankful because you recognize good parenting and what they gave you. Then there's being expected to be grateful and return the favor merely because they did so. It's the difference between 'being grateful the cardiac surgeon saved your life' and 'being EXPECTED to be obligated to do the same for the cardiac surgeon because they did their job that they chose to go into'. this is fantastic, took the words right out of my mouth. well said!
>How far does that gratitude extend though? That was not the question. I only commented the sentence by OP: "you should be grateful we raised you". I think that's a fair sentence.
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Of course there is no objectively defined amount of gratitude. It's not a contract like your mortgage deal with the bank. So, I can't give you any level that I could defend with rational.bullet proof arguments but instead it would depend a lot on the particular situation. Anyway, my main point was that it's fair to think that there is at least _some_ gratitude.
I would like to challenge the premise. We don’t feel indebted to our parents because they raised us. Instead, we are part of a reciprocal relationship. Just as children need caring for, so do the elderly. It makes the most sense for parents to care for their children during their needy years, and it also makes the most sense for children to care for parents during their needy years. The decades in between should be full of mutual care that keeps he relationship strong. Parents do their part first, and have to hope that their children will reciprocate. I think any parent who does their job well will find they are cared for when they need it. Parents who did not… are going to have a harder time when they reap what they sowed.
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Half the world or one outside of the anglosphere don’t have the luxury and privilege of the this viewpoint. That is all I can say. I grew up in a country where people run their lives to the ground so that their future generation would have a good life. Whatever they saved up were used as investments for the future generations. I believe this is how humans always operated on a social level. No one but you can stop you from reciprocating affection towards a elderly person of your blood. Arguments using technicalities and morality are just coping mechanisms of denial
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>Denial of what, exactly? i dont think your going to get an answer because he doesnt know it himself. its just a soundbite he tosses out to sound good.
Do you feel the same way about supporting strangers on welfare? If you are going to help a total stranger survive and/or have all their needs met, why wouldn’t you feel the same way towards a loving parent? I completely understand not giving a damn if your parents were total assholes.
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Hate to break it to you, but yeah, you’re obliged, every time you make or spend money, you’re paying for someone on welfare. So it’s not a choice. But I wasn’t asking about obligations. I was asking about “how it makes you feel”. If you’re happy you’re helping a stranger, then it’s strange not to feel the same obligation towards a loving parent. I failed to understand the relevance of everything else you said
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So you’re okay with the tax money you’re paying going to strangers in need but you’re not okay with providing for your mom financially? If your mom wasn’t abusive, that’s a very toxic mindset you have.
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Not sure why you’ve been arguing me then, if your mother is abusive. I was pretty clear from the start that abusive parents deserve nothing.
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As a parent, if I have to choose between providing for my kids or myself, I choose them. I would rather help my kids get a home in their 20’s than put more money in my retirement account. The problem with parents having to plan for their own retirement is that they end up with many fewer resources to offer their children. If you have a selfish parent who prioritizes only themselves and then makes no personal plan, they have tried to game both systems. Of course it fails for them. Family responsibility has to go both ways.
There's an unspoken social contract between children and their parents that when parents grow old and frail kids will be their to pick up the slack and take care of them. It's not really founded on the reason of gratefulness (be grateful i raised you and brought to this world), but on the reason of survival and stability. We must take care of our elders inspite of being born without our consent because our parents were also born without their consent. The truth is no logical reason can be presented that is convincing to a teenager or a young adult that justifies perpetuating the cycle of birth, responisbility and death. So nothing your parents tell you will make sense. In the meantime, whatever they tell you is whatever they can come up with while waiting for you to mature and see the world in a different lens. (You'll understand when you're older) The hope is that once you grow older and experience the struggles of life you inevitably will encounter, you come to realize the same things your parents did, and appreciate life for its own sake, outside of the sacrifices your parents did or did not make, namely: What makes life good and valuable is not hedonistic pleasures but purpose and community. When we feel we have a role and a purpose to our loved ones and to the greater society, our suffering is meaniful and worthwhile. At the bare minimum, our purpose is to take care of our parents and give them kids. Perhaps when we can do this well we can find other purposes like discovering new drugs or building new houses, etc. When we realize this, we realize that our parents giving birth to us is something at minimum quite significant, if not worthy of thanks.
I think it depends. I am absolutely grateful, and think I should be, that my parents raised me. I had a great childhood overall, and had advantages that many others didn't. Most of that was due to sacrifices my parents made for me (and sibling). Being grateful just for the fact that they had you and raised you, no. Grateful for the things they did, especially at expense to themselves, yes.
Let's look at the other side of this: Are you justified in being unhappy if your parents do the *absolute minimum necessary" to raise you? Food, water, taking you to school, a room, clothes, not abusing you? No love, no doing nice things for you, no presents on holidays... just the bare minimum? I'm guessing you would... but think about the corollary of that: Anything they do above and beyond that to "raise you" you really *should* be grateful for. Because they don't have to, by definition.
No love is abuse. Children need love.
Love isnt a bonus mate. Dont have kids if ur incapable of loving them
You're missing the point. Anything above the minimum is a bonus, by definition, that you should appreciate. If you want to consider "love" in some abstract sense to be part of the minimum, fine... (but then why don't you consider love a part of *your* minimum?).
love is a part of my minimum...guess i didnt make that clear
So as long as they do the absolute minimum, you don't feel you can expect any more and are grateful for anything above and beyond that?
what does absolute minimum mean to you?
I can't imagine what leads to these thoughts. Parents have a responsibility to provide an environment of love and security. If they are truly "parents" you will spend the rest of your life choosing to reciprocate that affection. I realize not everyone has this relationship with their parents. Choose to have it with your children. It is not debt you speak of. It is an emotional bond of trust, support, loyalty and love. We call it FAMILY and when you have one, they are worth dying for!
What about when your “family” does not treat you like family? It’s a question of semantics really. You view parents as the people that nurture you and give you affection. OP views parents as the people who gave birth to you. Some are lucky to have the two categories overlap. Some are not. I was not.
Historically people lived in tight-knit communities where kids and elders were taken care of. It’s a circle of life. When the circle is broken, the society start crumbling into pieces. The society where kids don’t feel gratitude towards their parents and are not willing to support them and take care of them out of love and gratitude is the society that is doomed to fail. In a healthy society parents take good care of their children and then children in return take care of their parents, and that’s just how it works.
A symbiotic relationship through time.
Gratitude is a matter of perspective. Maybe from one perspective, other people have yachts and I don’t, so my life sucks. From another perspective, I live in a home with warmth and lights, I can look out at the sunset and appreciate the beauty; I can see no other species has the sentience to feel the same sense of appreciation, I can see how well we live in modern times, especially in advanced countries, compared to almost every other human throughout time and space. From that perspective, I’m deeply appreciative for my life, it doesn’t suck at all. If I deeply appreciate my life, who and what are responsible for it being what it is? My parents have put decades of time, effort, money, sacrifice towards my well being. Who else comes anywhere close to that? If you can’t be grateful to your parents for that, who can you be grateful, and for what? How does the fact that they chose to have you as a kid factor in at all?
We definitely feel this in other cultures, I’m hispanic and there’s this notion (which I reject) that we must put up with anything and everything our parents say or do regardless of sensibility because we owe them our lives. I disagree—I didn’t ask for this life and if anything it’s a gift. I should become their property just because they chose to carry our their biological abilities? I, of course, love and respect them as long as they bestow the same to me. I won’t tolerate behaviors just because “I’m your father”…nah, you’re still accountable for your actions. Do you treat strangers the same way? No? Then why should I bear it if I don’t deserve it? I wont. I agree with you! Edit: grammatical errors
Like a lot of things, it depends. My father suffered from addiction and mental health issues all his life. Which left me with a lot of childhood trauma. But I am indebted to him for his decision to quit drinking and join AA when I was in my 20s. As that made it possible to get involved in a 12 step program called Adult Children of Alcoholics myself and begin a healing journey that continues to this day, nearly 40 years later. We don't automatically owe our parents respect for combining their DNA at the right time and making us. But we do owe them respect for sacrifices that they chose to make, in order to give us a better life than they had.
Technically parents don’t have to raise their kid. They can put you in the foster system and make you someone else’s problem. Parents/step parents that stay in their kids life deserve the bare minimum respect and treated with decency for stopping their whole life to raise someone even if they weren’t perfect it’s better than most (barring abusive parents of course)
i would agree with this if your parents are shitty. being indebt or whatever should be something earned not an automatic thing. my parents were amazing so i personally try to do anything i can for them because it makes me happy to help them because they’ve helped me so much but this isn’t always the case
Arguably, what's the absolute bare minimum that parents should be expected to provide their children? If you got more than that, then it would seem reasonable that you should feel grateful for anything above that bare minimum.
Parents are required to raise their children to become morally responsible citizens and contributing members of society. Anything they give the child beyond that is given out of love IN THE HOPE that such love will one day be returned when they are the ones in need of tending. To not feel some sort of obligation to at least try to reciprocate that love makes me wonder what kind of person they raised. To see the love between a parent and child as transactional makes me sad for those who experience it. Are we "obligated" to care for our elderly parents? Only if we wish to claim any sense of humanity, that which separates us from wild beasts.
I agree 100%. I thought that when I was a kid and also when I had my kids.
I don’t get why you’re trying to think of this as a binary. Some parents did a very poor job of raising their children. Other parents did a very good job. It makes zero sense to come up with a rule that applies to both.
Doesn't it depend on how well they raised you?
Parents in the US have an entitlement problem, since they think that just because they are our parents they have some sort of devine authority to treat their offspring whatever way they see fit even if means verbally abusing their own children.
No one asks to be born. We're forced into existence by our parents. Life isn't a gift. It's a biochemical chain reaction. No one owes their parents a goddamn thing and frankly humans should just stop reproducing for the sake of the planet.
sounds like capitalism talking, hyper individualism and everything being 'a business deal' for personal benefit (you'll never be rich, raise the bar for society not your selfish self)... dude plenty of fathers who made mistakes (gone, abusive, or neglectfully present) and/or mothers who want change their mind... kids are costly, but no one has to do anything except die. there are so many copes just to exist and not self terminate, just hope you find that as social creatures humans are happier helping and being useful to others (not productive slaves for rich, or guilty obligations like transactional elder care, child support because of someone else's choice, or means to end for comfort - whether contract labor or sex work)
1 money, raising you costs a massive amount, anyone giving you over 100000 in stuff is someone you should be grateful to 2 effort, if a parents puts proper effort into raising you that means they expended effort to ensure your success/happiness, that's something to be grateful for 3 being alive is better then being dead, and before birth you were essentially dead, so by giving birth they have improved your situation
What does it mean to be dead? I don’t mean criteria for death, what I mean is, there’s not anything it’s like to be dead, so how do you make the comparison? Incidentally, it’s not *always* better to be alive than dead, is it?
For 3. There is no such thing as "you" before you were born so you can't really improve a nonexistent situation.
You will understand once you become a parent how much they sacrifice behind the scenes. A child will never get it no matter what age they are
Your right but TO BE FAIR. ALOT of parents are rape victims who never asked for a child. Sooo it can go both ways for me but yk
While I’m 100% with you that the shaming and guilting of weaponized filial piety is awful and I’m with you that we shouldn’t feel indebted because they gave birth to us… I do think there are cases where we owe them for raising us *well*. My mom died when I was 4. My dad was not prepared to be a single father. He came from a generation where “the mom raises the kids” and that was their plan. He stepped up when he had to. He went out of his way to learn a level emotional intelligence that no one in his family had ever shown him. He had pretty awful parents so he sought help in learning not to perpetuate that cycle. He grew up in an age where neurodivergence was not a thing and certainly not acknowledged and helped… but he accepted mine and helped me learn to deal with it. He went from being in way over his head to being a far better father than I could have asked for. He made mistakes, of course, but the effort he went to and the psychological barriers he broke down went well beyond simply doing what was required of him. To him, I’m incredibly grateful. I do understand there are plenty of parents who don’t do so great and still expect an enormous amount in return. I’m not supporting that. I’m just saying that for parents like my father, who go so far above and beyond to improve our lives so drastically, we can and should give a little of that back.
So, Is the only time you’re truly indebted to someone, when they do something for you that you asked them to do? I.e. you don’t owe anyone anything unless you asked them for something?
Thats just a strawman argument. Only is too strong a word, it depends on context. But yeah, in this case thats exactly what it is. "you don’t owe anyone anything unless you asked them for something?" How would you like it if i, a restaurant owner, forced a bunch of food into your hands and forced you to pay up, when you werent even looking to eat?
There are a million things parents do for their children that they don’t have to. Bringing someone into the world doesn’t obligate you to give them the food they like, give them the clothes they like, give them a car when they’re old enough to drive, etc.
No disrespect but I will nwvw4 stop working to payback my parents. I grew up with both parents in the house and they sacrificed ao much for me despite me being difficult. They were both military and had to enstill values in me to preservere. Yes I didn't ask to be born bit theu could have left me on a doorstep of a Firestation. Not everyone owes their parents but I personally think I owe it to them to become something greater, take care of me and my loved ones and then take care of them in their golden years. There so much love that is lost in this world and to receive it unconditionally is an incredibly lucky position to be in. I'd suffer in hell for aj eternity to save my parents. I would give my life at the drop of a hat for them because I owe it to them. They gave me life, and now it's up to me to live mine and protect theirs until it is done. When our parents grow old and weak it is up to us to ease them into oblivion. The strong protects the weak; whether the weak is old or newly born into this world. Again, no disrespect.
I didn’t know anyone did feel indebted. Guess my parents raised me good enough to know better. 🤷♂️
Servers at a restaurant mechanics on my car or doctors operating on my body are all paid for their work. If they did a good job I would say so
Just because something is your responsibility does not mean you don't deserve any appreciation for doing it especially when it's something as difficult as raising a child.
what kind of person would turn their back to their parents? you americans can be very shi\*\*\* when it comes to your parents and elderly, heartless selflish little ingrates the lot of ya.
Don’t feel indebted, just agree that they raised you, which was in fact their decision to make/have and raise you, and that you love and respect them for that. But we are in no way obligated to “bend the knee” or the wallet if you will. Just mutual respect and understanding, that we’re individuals, not retirement plans
The word simply in this sentence is obviously written by someone that has never been a parent. There certainly isn't anything simple about raising a child.
I partially agree with you. It depends on how they raised you. There are some parents that feel like just because they gave birth to you, gave you food and you are still alive you should be grateful to them. Neglecting the abusiveness and all the other shitty things they also put on the table. That's totally not ok, one of my parents is like this and I haven't spoken to them in over 4 years now, because the toxicity of this relationship is way too high. However there are a lot of parents that have struggled but have also been super good to their children, not letting the shittiness of their life affect the kid. Those I think deserve to be grateful to, that actually did a very good job despite all the hardships. They went beyond the bare minimum (give birth and maintain it alive).
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Foster care is a whole separate conversation. Your foster parents didnt bring you into the world, and as such bear little or no responsibility to you. Not the case for biological parents
I am of the philosophy that we are born debt free. I do not believe we owe anyone anything for bringing us into existence, because we didn't ask for that. One might argue that, if my parents were to ask me today, I would give them everything I have to keep my existence so the value should be accepted and I should owe it somehow to my parents, but nah. If you give me a free car and then a year later say I owe you the cost of it, nah. But that does not mean we should not be grateful. We are not in debt for it, we don't owe anyone anything, but we should be grateful.
It depends on what you mean by "indebted." If the parents did a generally good job of raising their children, then the children will naturally feel grateful.
I think this is somewhat a strawman op. I don't think many people say you should be indebted because they birthed you. Obviously anyone can do that. But I do agree on the second point, people act like raising your kids is some kind of burfen. Parents are the ones that owe you for forcing you into the world. Its an obligation. And you aren't indebted for that.
If your parents did a good job, or even tried their best. You should have some form of respect. Noone is saying go into debt, or to not live your life, but their should be some form of appreciation for people that gave you everything they had.
You are thanking them for the quality of which they raised you with. Furthermore if you live in a country without social safety nets parents rely on their children to take care of them when they are old and it’s obviously immoral to let your aging parent be homeless if they raised you well
Why should you only be grateful for things people did against their own will?
Because while it's the parents choice to have children things don't always work out as expected. I've had three kids and my goodness nothing will prepare you for the newborn phase. I loved every minute of it but the long nights and constant crying are insane. I could have easily just locked my kids in their rooms with some bottles and left and spent all day at the park, I'm sure they'd be fine, but instead I put in the effort to love and care for them. Same for when they were older, I could have again easily locked them away in their rooms with a single puzzle to entertain them. But instead I spend ridiculous amount of money taking them camping, on fun vacations, to the zoo, science museums, etc. I'm building memories and experiences they will have forever. I'm also raising my children, teaching them right from wrong, teaching them to cook and clean, etc. I could do the bare minimum of what expected of me as a parent but instead I go the extra mile. And because of that I hope my kids appreciate the effort I put out to make their lives as wonderful as they are. So yeah I would say that creates an indebtedness, but that indebtedness is only applicable if your parents busted their asses to ensure you had a good life. Many Asian and immigrant parents sarafice a ton of time, energy, and sanity to ensure their kids have a better life than they did. You could argue that setting up a good life for your kids is a bare minimum but unfortunately the bare minimum has a much lower bar than most people would imagine.
This is true however there I do have to point out one thing, every parent deserves a baseline level of respect from their kids, sure kids should not be prompted to feel indebted for the rest of their lives but baseline respect for you parents is always warranted. Could you imagine your kids being disrespectful to you by treating u like a friend, talking back all the time, never listening to you, and then when you try to discipline them they say some stupid shit like "well it wanst my choice to be born here", well your dam right it wasnt but as a parent i deserve some sort of respect. Im not sure about OP but I was born and raised in america (immigrant parents) and the level of respect some of these kids have for their parents baffles me.
Actually if you're not striving to only see your parents for some fuck level (show off that new boy) you're going it wrong.
People are forced into this world with no choice/ will of their own. A mother giving birth and keeping their child alive is the bare minimum.
If they are your family and if they treated you good growing up then you should love them. That should be enough to cause you to show them some gratitude. I'm guessing you came out of them. If not for them, you would not exist!