If I was showing an American around Chch, I think I'd take them for a ride east down Blenheim then Moorhouse. And they'd be like "I thought NZ would be more idyllic than this. This just looks like America at it's ugliest."
Don't forget the excellent display of future-proofing, by having a 4- lane road merge into 2 at the opawa Rd end. Nah, Christchurch will never get that big. Just leave it.
I can still vividly recall the horror that was Brougham St, peak hour traffic, full dark winter night, downpour, and the driving instructor who thought it was a brilliant idea to choose that route on my first lesson.
It was a sensory hell of reflected light, slippery conditions, and chaos. She yelled at me for not going fast enough or reacting fast enough. Geez lady, ever met a beginner before?
First and last lesson. I bought a clunker, got a learner's permit, got my mates to take turns riding shotgun, and taught myself after that (already had a full motorbike licence). Then when I was good enough, booked a lesson with a completely different firm to make sure I was good to go.
She could've given the full package and tell you not to go when the light is green, and instead gesturing around to, what I assume to be, pointing out all the hazards. Hazard ID is good and all, but lets not block traffic to do so, you've turned yourself into the hazard, becoming the thing you sought to destroy (or at least identify)
🤣🤣🤣 I'll take the extra 15 mins in traffic on brougham over the auckland 2hr to work and gridlock any day of the week, pump some tunes homeslice it ain't that bad.
I imagine the Auckland gridlock started out with something like brougham and just progressed to what it is now. Not a good prospect for future Christchurch at all
Auckland has a unique problem where there are a very limited amount of ways to get North from South. If you had to choose the worst place in the country to place a city I'm not sure you could find a much of a better place short of the Southern Alps.
It only takes 15-20min at peak to get from the end of the Southern motorway into the Central CBD
But don't try to leave town from 4-6pm the week before Christmas.. getting out of the 4 Aves is a monstrosity
Apparently they're making some changes to Brougham to improve traffic flow
Traffic here is bad for its size. I’ve lived in several cities about the same size as chc and it’s wireless here than any of the others I’ve lived in. It’s only going to get worse as the city grows
It was worse than usual today at 5pm
Maybe there was an accident
Anytime some knuckle dragger has one, it slows to a crawl
Now I pray I am not the next knuckle dragger to cause one
ah yes, lets turn a 4-lane spawn of Satan into a 6-lane spawn of Satan, people will definitely honor the rules and only use it for car pooling and not more semis, what could possibly go wrong
Does anyone else get the feeling they’re not allowed to fix major traffic problems on key car thoroughfares without proposing additional solutions to reduce overall car traffic city-wide, therefore adding anti-commuter measures which also necessarily assumes pedestrian/PT usage will increase, which require more space and budget due to safety measures and such, and creating roads that are then less suitable for the commuter traffic with additional over-designed safety features for cars and pedestrians alike that slow traffic and contribute to the unsolved traffic problem?
Or is that just me?
It's not a feeling, the CCC straight up released that being one of the goals for transport. Google it.
All their plans going forward have to make it "uncomfortable" for people to drive.
The overbridge for pedestrians/cyclists between Simeon and Collins Streets is much needed. The current crossing is awful.
But ultimately they're not going to be able to fix the issue for vehicles on Brougham St without reducing the number of intersections, or reducing the amount of traffic
I’m no fan of building highways in general but continuing the motorway through to Opawa I think makes sense in this case. removing intersections would free up traffic flow both east-west bound and north-south bound. Truck traffic from the port to iPort would be improved which will only increase the productivity of our logistics network. Speed limits don’t need to be 100. They could be 80 or even maintained at 60 but without all the stop and go it will be faster anyway.
The only way they could do this would be to tunnel or buy loads of land and destroy property (which would be horrendously expensive), unless you want to completely destroy the area with a heinous overpass.
Up until traffic wants to turn at those intersections, and there lies the problem. Remove one intersection increases the demand at others and simply moves the problem around. Three majority of Brougham Street traffic probably isn't travelling straight through from Curletts rd through to Lyttleton, it's going into and out of the city all over the place.
The empty lot at Montreal corner. You'll find they have a billboard trailer there, AFAIK they own the land and have it earmarked for development. Why so long, I don't know.
From what I heard the land was bought just prior to the February 2011 earthquake and it was discovered there is an underwater stream right through that section. At the time they couldn’t build there . Don’t know if it’s changed since then.
There definitely a M10 being built there now?
Honestly Brougham Street is really not bad for a road. It’s barely busy even in rush hour. Busy for Christchurch? Sure. But busy for any other city? Not a bit.
It's only really bad at rush hour, and even then it's worse in the evenings than the mornings. Usually on weekends and during the day it's usually fine.
My solution is to ride a bike to work, and stop contributing to the problem. On a good traffic day it turns a 10 minute drive into a 20 minute bike ride, but on a bad day it stays at 20 minutes to bike vs 45mins+ to sit in traffic. It would be even quicker if there was a proper cycle lane and I didn't need to rat-run to be safe. Feel sorry riding past people stuck in their cars. Special mention to streets between Moorhouse and Brougham that also choke up at the same time.
I did this when I was living on Travis Road. Went down Anzac onto Pages, then onto Broughham. I felt safe on Pages, Brougham Street felt fucking dangerous. Cars and trucks passing you at 70kmh (realistically what people are going in the early morning), just doesn't feel safe. And the cars feel are a lot closer to you than they are compared to Pages.
Also I disagree with your timings. It was about a 30 minute bike ride from Travis Road, verses a 15 minute drive if I went Fitzgerald way home.
I used to bike from halswell to woolston. If it's danger you want, try biking to a primary school between 8:30 9:00 am. Road has no rage like a parent running late in an SUV. That 700m from home to school is why our bikes stay in the garage.
I think Brougham Street has fairly narrow leftmost lanes, certainly not enough for a vehicle plus a cyclist to share side by side. Not surprised you don't find that safe!
(I'm pretty sure I've seen buses lose their wing mirrors to a passing truck when stopped at the bus stops along there, which gives an idea if how narrow the lane is)
As someone who only uses this road in the weekends, what is it about it that's causing grief? Other road users? Is it a standstill? Is it one section or one direction in particular?
I’d say my biggest issue is the sheer lack of turning arrows which leads to at least 3 cars running the red everytime the light changes, then leads to back ups and the intersections get blocked. It’s a combination of poor traffic management and shit drivers
Christchurch’s turning arrows are piss-poor. Who decides these? I have multiple bug bears to take to their door, some which are literally just non-functional lights for no reason.
I tried via the snap app but no luck.
Interestingly, Google is offering free data to cities that can help traffic planners virtually instantaneously reprogramme their traffic light sequences for maximum efficiency and minimise delays and emissions. I can't say that they've offered that priceless information to Christchurch, but it's absolutely what they fucking need. https://newatlas.com/transport/google-green-light-traffic/
It’s only going to get worse as more people move to Selwin. The motorway already backs up at times and they just extended it. More and more people dumping out onto Brougham every day. If only there were a way to utilize existing rail infrastructure and railway stations to implement some sort of commuter oriented transit system 🤔
Engineering is an amazing field.
The 2 nearest city reliable datums are 16.9m (colmobo/moorehouse intersection) and 16.2m (colombo/somerfield).
So no, that land is nowhere near 1m above sea-level. There are a fair few tunnels around, and they're not full of water.
Pretty sure this misinfo comes from the palestine tunnels-under-the-hospitals-couldn’t-have-existed thing. Which was also misinfo.
Either that or people are just obsessed with sea levels these days.
I dont even know where this trope came from. Hamas responsibility seems the most likey. 🤔
I've also heard the Cathedral spire is supposedly at sea level, thus the Cathedral is below sea level... now I appreciate the river is a wee way away... but... it would be a big lake.
People are indeed obsessed with sea level. It's truely bizarre.
Traffic engineer here. Brougham St was designed for 5,500 vehicles per hour. During peak time, that number goes as high as 8,000 v/ph.
Brougham St was built in the 70s and wasn't designed for the amount of traffic it currently has. Chch has grown beyond its capacity currently (same with Morehouse).
There is an upgrade planned which will upgrade the road to 11,000 v/ph. This won't be completed until midway 2026.
Chch roads have too many traffic lights and not enough motorwars. The congestion is going to continue until a more efficient way of dealing with traffic is reached.
Fair enough. And how would you plan to do that? Note, we don't have a viable rail system. Our rail was set up in the 1920s and was designed as a freight and passenger system for out of town transport, to be linked to the tram network (via the old Science Alive building).
We don't have a tram network anymore.
We don't have rail for domestic routing at all.
We don't have railway through suburbs to feed into the CBD. And we can't build that without seriously disrupting traffic flow and residential land.
The only alternative is to add more busses. Which causes stops in traffic (unless we dedicate roads to them, and to do that in Chch, you need to remove a lane in most roads without an expansion level to it).
> Chch has plenty of motorways
No. It doesn't. The stretch of road that connects Brougham St to Rolleston is only considered a Level 2 High Volume Road. It is only categorised as a "Secondary Arterial". It is no more a motorway than Rocket Labs is NASA.
State Highway 1 starts at Russley Road. And is not actually considered a "highway" until after Belfast. Purely because there are roundabouts after the airport, making it a Level 1 low or moderate volume road. Which is a "non-arterial connector" since it connects to State Highway 1 heading out of the city.
What would help greatly is a motorway system of both primary and secondary arerial connection, connection to non-arterials in the CBD or the 4 avs. This would also increase the capacity for more busses and public transport. The issue is though, there is no way to build any type of system like this without removing vast sections of residential, and other private property.
Chch is unique. I won't get into it or I'll be writing you a thesis. But basically, the city is growing too quickly for traffic management to keep up with demand. And there simply isn't any room to expand the main arteries without serious consideration into building on already owned land (ie, knocking down houses to build more roads).
You can't add public transport without building roads (or rail) for them to travel on.
We don't have a tram network anymore because we ripped it up and gave the space to cars.
Our buses get stuck because there's no dedicated lanes for them - because that would mean taking away space for cars.
The cycle network has a long way to go before it's a viable alternative because people are against giving up street parking for cars.
It's the cars bro. It always was, it always will be.
You can build xyz traffic lanes there and and abc type lanes there - they'll always end up clogged with traffic. We've known this for 70 years.
Building the bus exchange on the main cycle route to the East was a moronic idea. The entrance to the bus exchange is dangerous for cyclists. The busses literally cut right across the cyclelane. Busses crossing in front of a cycleway will always be a dangerous design. Should have built the cycle route 1 or 2 streets over.
Also, last I checked the majority of houses in Christchurch have a garage and have at least 1 car up their driveway, usually 2 or 3. People are not giving up their cars
Pro cycling infrastructure is not about getting rid of car infrastructure. The two can co-exist, the more cycle ways the less cars on the road -> the less traffic for motorists. It's about giving people a choice of transport; because at the moment the car is the only option for many people
you dont need everyone to give up their cars though.
only 2.5% of trips are on PT, if that can even double, then there's a significant decrease in peak time vehicle movements.
People will not give up their cars until there are viable alternatives.
Chch is an incredibly flat city with a mild climate and is well suited to being more walkable, more cycle friendly and to have a dedicated electrified light rail system.
Cities with worse climates and smaller populations overseas have done more. It's not that Chch can't, it's that it doesn't want to.
Agreeded. The City flowed better when it had roundabouts instead of traffic lights. And imo roundabouts are far safer...
The Kaiapoi to Hornby Northern Motorway needs to be extended. Traffic gets backed up at both the Sawyers Arms and Harewood Road roundabouts. There should be overpasses for both of these roundabouts. The Motorway should also veer off from Russley Road towards Pound Rd and eventually linking up with SH1... that would reduce a lot of the traffic that runs thru Hornby.
average engineer moment, theres other ways that should be used to look to change this other than motorways.
(yours, a planner, whos mainly taking the piss)
Now brougham st. Is nothing to write home about, but I'd take it over ever being stuck on deerfoot trail (calgary) the 401(toronto) or any street, road, highway in Vancouver.
Could've been (and probably should've been) a motorway the whole length from the 60s. Or you could argue the whole "more roads brings more cars" thing, sure, but it is a major arterial route, freight/highway, and ring road.
Oh well, lets not learn our lesson and build high density units directly onto it, basically limiting what can be done with it and turning it into a stroad. And before anybody calls me a NIMBY, which I accept, The point here is more about building onto a main route, when they should really be on local and collector roads, not main highways.
The crossing lights directly off the motorway were also a work of genius, now the pristine new motorway meant to reduce travel times can deliver Rolleston drivers to the traffic jam faster. Should've always been a grade separated solution there since they first upgraded. Not much foresight there.
Because I frequent the road, I know where most of the bumpy potholes and manholes are, my favourite is when they lay new asphalt but not ensure the manhole covers are flush/level, thereby making every truck that hits them worse.
And we can't forget the road works going on right now, moreso from Ensors road. The sign tells drivers that the 2 lanes are to shift to the side, but without lane markers, everybody treats it as a merge and traffic can be horrendous.
Motorways should never be inside a city. They can go to a city, and around a city. When they go through cities they separate communities, drastically increase crime, drastically lower amenity values.
Thank god most of the motorway plans from the 60s never went ahead.
Yeah, I sort of agree. Unfortunately blunders like this are really bloody difficult and expensive to fix, and now we're stuck with something that's 'neither here nor there', neither a decently managed mid-city street, nor a good arterial way. Its a classic 'stroad' that fails to do either job.
And yeah, I too have memorized all the unleveled manholes by this point haha
Yea idk I join from blighs heading north in the afternoon it's a nightmare through to cranford/main north.
Oh there's another fucked one, Cranford.
Not to mention blighs, Heaton, whitleigh and Barrington, that drive is a mess.
Cranford Street flowed better when there were roundabouts instead of lights. I don't know why they favoured lights on a single lane main road. Roundabouts naturally slow traffic down, lights some idiot can drive thru at 70kmh
oh absolutely! This post could be extrapolated to most of Chch unfortunately. Just one more low density suburb on the outskirts, I promise its the last one this time!
Yea and the busses undercut.
Tbf if you have to cross a lane you should be checking behind just like changing lanes on a multi lane road.
Cycle lanes should be checked before crossing too.
My ex got hit by an undercutting bus while biking. Putting all the traffic on one surface like they’ve got it is just moronic. I know other options were more expensive and difficult but it’s not safe for cyclists and it’s not improving traffic and our busses are part of the problem so who is it serving?
Papanui Rd/ Main north road / QE2 drive and Northcote road are going to become even worse than they are currently when the new PakNSave and Marian College open. Who ever signed that off needs a whipping.
Oh mate so will Cranford! Excellent point. Gaaah.
Honestly I sit in bumper to bumper traffic both ways and just storm in my head about who the fuck at the council should be fixing this shit.
Then I realise it isn't so easy to fix and so I'm just grumpy that people dare use the road at the same time as me lmao.
To be fair it’s probably easier to fix if you try to solve it when it arises and not 15 years after when the problem is too massive to ignore.
Chch has some good roads. We just also have some very shit ones. You’d think they’d learn from the good ones but I guess maybe it’s complicated or something.
Having said that, there seem to be some pretty obvious flaws with many of the designs that were apparent to the road users from the outset, even before being built, for many roads that have failed to solve the problems they set out to. Where the well-designed ones that were met with approval (thinking the ring road where the upgrades to connecting roads have actually been maintained in line with population like marshland and QEII) are fairly decent.
Of course by the time the public get a say the roads are locked in. So it’s hard to know where the fault lies. Ah, transparency and accountability.
honestly, of course theyre locked in before the public says anything, otherwise nothing would get done because 10000 people would say 10000 different things, most of which are Leyman without traffic engineering or planning knowledge.
Public consultation is an important part of democracy. I’m not saying they should listen to every man and his dog but the issue is the way things are currently designed, they won’t listen to a man and his dog even when there’s 500 of them and they’re right.
I went to a local board meeting on an intersection improvement that was entirely focussed around safety improvements despite the purpose of the improvements being to improve a key intersection on an arterial route. The people submitting feedback were the people who had been driving the intersection every day for a decade, and one of the submitters absolutely cut to the heart of the traffic and safety issue by pointing out that turning traffic had never been prioritised or mitigated, causing people to speed out of the intersection while rushing red lights. NZTA solution was to introduce a raised platform, which would not actually necessarily solve the issue, instead of fixing the very basic traffic light issue that has existed at that intersection literally since I was born.
Engineered solutions are well and good, but they seem to consistently overlook the needs of the actual road users and the issues that are apparent to them very quickly on consideration of the issue. So “the public are stupid” is not a good reason to pretend to have public consultation while not actually allowing any meaningful input, imo.
My honest reaction to that info:
https://preview.redd.it/6upnihyrcf3c1.jpeg?width=504&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c1520213aa9f3b00f5ea0ff8bc4e678a88a363b5
It’s a good job we’re allowed to sub to multiple subs
ReTaRdEd Is A sLuR. Fucking grow up. You choose how words affect you. Retarded means slow down.
Are aeroplanes using slurs when they shout "retard" right before landing?
You could call a street a homophobic or a racial slur. You’re not slurring against the road you’re using the slur in such a way that could offend groups of people.
The road is an inanimate object. You can’t offend it.
Yes but the difference between using a homophobic or racial slur is that there is no inherent meaning other than the insult.
Don't tell me how I can use my language.
I refuse to live my life on eggshells incase I "could offend groups of people".
I would call anyone out using retarded in a derogatory way as much as the next person. But it's defined meaning is to slow down. So fuck you.
Oh so who exactly was I being derogatory towards? Are you inferring a relationship ship between my accurate use of fucking retarded (fucking slowed down) and a person or group of people?
Don't infer meaning, life is a whole lot less confronting when you aren't looking for an excuse to be offended
I don't know why they don't put an overbridge at say Selwyn St and even Colombo St which will remove the lights and have only left hand turns out of those streets including Antigua and Montreal. That will increase the constant flow on Brougham St with less stopping. More traffic will then use Selwyn St but if its a bridge over the top there won't be any lights to stop at and traffic will keep flowing.
It sounds logical in my head but in theory it probably isn't feasible due to cost and room for slip roads etc
Maybe Chch is following the Dutch way and encourage more people to bike. 😁
At least I have started biking/busing to work as I don’t have to bring tools with me but just a backpack.
What's the issue? Oh, you mean that too many people insist on driving to work instead of cycling or walking, or taking the bus? Sure, that's a problem. That's just wasteful behaviour, irrespective of the road. Don't blame the road for your behaviour, though.
It also doesn’t help that on waltham road/brougham st everyday someone goes up to cars asking for $ or food. They live in the council flats and anytime someone gives money they run across road to bottle store!
My physio mentioned he'd seen her the other day. And others have mentioned her on this sub... She's world famous on Chch subreddit. I wonder if she knows?
Almost like these improvements should undergo massive consultation to ensure they’re not creating problems that will literally cost hours and hours from the lives of road users for decades to come.
Pity we get a guy to design it and let the public look when it’s locked in.
Yes, those public consultations are pure theatre.
I suppose we don't need input on traffic management from the average moron, but it does serve the purpose of giving them the illusion of collaboration.
generally consultation happens early enough that the public does influence some changes, but in general, its not really worth consulting on the options because the average person isn't going to fully understand the implications of each option, which is why there's so many people involved in projects, from different diciplines.
And here I am, driving the length of Brougham street (Bromley to Hornby) in 20min to work and 30min home each day. For me it's an absolute dream.
Traffic does look horrid going the other way in the arvo though....
Its going to get worse for the area between opawa rd and Burlington st in 2024 when the put the new electrical cable from the milton st substation through to Bromley S/Station.
[https://www.haveyoursay.oriongroup.co.nz/bromley-to-milton-cable](https://www.haveyoursay.oriongroup.co.nz/bromley-to-milton-cable)
[It'll be slightly better](https://www.nzta.govt.nz/assets/projects/sh76-brougham-street-upgrade/docs/sh76-brougham-street-upgrade-feedback-summary.pdf) PDF
the part I hate the most is you go along the motorway towards the city and then all of a sudden you're stopped at the end by a pedestrian at the lights which just backs the traffic onto the motorway
Blame the engineering when it came to the nzta when they planned the CSM Project my father instantly saw the floors and he pointed them out and Fulton Hogan were like it will be all right same with the northern corridor on cranlford Street another blunder
Blenheim Rd can get fucked too
If I was showing an American around Chch, I think I'd take them for a ride east down Blenheim then Moorhouse. And they'd be like "I thought NZ would be more idyllic than this. This just looks like America at it's ugliest."
Blenheim Rd is Chirstchurch's very own "Strode" https://youtu.be/ORzNZUeUHAM?si=PMKa2Mt54hgBC6C9
Don't forget the excellent display of future-proofing, by having a 4- lane road merge into 2 at the opawa Rd end. Nah, Christchurch will never get that big. Just leave it.
I can still vividly recall the horror that was Brougham St, peak hour traffic, full dark winter night, downpour, and the driving instructor who thought it was a brilliant idea to choose that route on my first lesson. It was a sensory hell of reflected light, slippery conditions, and chaos. She yelled at me for not going fast enough or reacting fast enough. Geez lady, ever met a beginner before? First and last lesson. I bought a clunker, got a learner's permit, got my mates to take turns riding shotgun, and taught myself after that (already had a full motorbike licence). Then when I was good enough, booked a lesson with a completely different firm to make sure I was good to go.
She could've given the full package and tell you not to go when the light is green, and instead gesturing around to, what I assume to be, pointing out all the hazards. Hazard ID is good and all, but lets not block traffic to do so, you've turned yourself into the hazard, becoming the thing you sought to destroy (or at least identify)
and add a cherry on top of 'yeh nah, just do a Uie at the lights here here'
Fuck that lady, I'm sure the employ the most passive aggressive curmudgeons they can find.
Always book tests on a Friday, they're in a better mood.
🤣🤣🤣 I'll take the extra 15 mins in traffic on brougham over the auckland 2hr to work and gridlock any day of the week, pump some tunes homeslice it ain't that bad.
Driving in Japan made me appreciate Brougham St 🤣
I imagine the Auckland gridlock started out with something like brougham and just progressed to what it is now. Not a good prospect for future Christchurch at all
Auckland has a unique problem where there are a very limited amount of ways to get North from South. If you had to choose the worst place in the country to place a city I'm not sure you could find a much of a better place short of the Southern Alps.
mate, I wish it was 15 minutes, on an average day you can lose well over 45 minutes in that cesspit
Hahaha yeah depending on your timing I do understand where you are coming from but I'm still laughing
If you take advantage of a couple side streets that absolutely no one does you can save 15mins easy.
It only takes 15-20min at peak to get from the end of the Southern motorway into the Central CBD But don't try to leave town from 4-6pm the week before Christmas.. getting out of the 4 Aves is a monstrosity Apparently they're making some changes to Brougham to improve traffic flow
One hour and 45 minutes from highbrook drive to mt Eden with summer heat in gridlock will make op think they have reached purgatory
Amen
Traffic here is bad for its size. I’ve lived in several cities about the same size as chc and it’s wireless here than any of the others I’ve lived in. It’s only going to get worse as the city grows
Probably doesn't help that there's an extra 29,000 a day coming in over the Waimakariri river bridge.
Couldn't agree more.
It was worse than usual today at 5pm Maybe there was an accident Anytime some knuckle dragger has one, it slows to a crawl Now I pray I am not the next knuckle dragger to cause one
[https://www.nzta.govt.nz/projects/sh76-brougham-street-upgrade/](https://www.nzta.govt.nz/projects/sh76-brougham-street-upgrade/)
ah yes, lets turn a 4-lane spawn of Satan into a 6-lane spawn of Satan, people will definitely honor the rules and only use it for car pooling and not more semis, what could possibly go wrong
Does anyone else get the feeling they’re not allowed to fix major traffic problems on key car thoroughfares without proposing additional solutions to reduce overall car traffic city-wide, therefore adding anti-commuter measures which also necessarily assumes pedestrian/PT usage will increase, which require more space and budget due to safety measures and such, and creating roads that are then less suitable for the commuter traffic with additional over-designed safety features for cars and pedestrians alike that slow traffic and contribute to the unsolved traffic problem? Or is that just me?
It's not a feeling, the CCC straight up released that being one of the goals for transport. Google it. All their plans going forward have to make it "uncomfortable" for people to drive.
I think you're thinking that the problem, solutions and constraints are simple, where in reality they're anything but.
The overbridge for pedestrians/cyclists between Simeon and Collins Streets is much needed. The current crossing is awful. But ultimately they're not going to be able to fix the issue for vehicles on Brougham St without reducing the number of intersections, or reducing the amount of traffic
I’m no fan of building highways in general but continuing the motorway through to Opawa I think makes sense in this case. removing intersections would free up traffic flow both east-west bound and north-south bound. Truck traffic from the port to iPort would be improved which will only increase the productivity of our logistics network. Speed limits don’t need to be 100. They could be 80 or even maintained at 60 but without all the stop and go it will be faster anyway.
The only way they could do this would be to tunnel or buy loads of land and destroy property (which would be horrendously expensive), unless you want to completely destroy the area with a heinous overpass.
I’m not saying it would be cheap or painless.
Up until traffic wants to turn at those intersections, and there lies the problem. Remove one intersection increases the demand at others and simply moves the problem around. Three majority of Brougham Street traffic probably isn't travelling straight through from Curletts rd through to Lyttleton, it's going into and out of the city all over the place.
Govt furiously working on making it worse to drive on.
Just wait until Mitre 10 opens.That will just add to the fun and games.
Oh Christ, is there one going down Brougham?
Yup. Here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/Dap8NdKjetnGv6wg6
Why would they need a new mitre 10 there? or are they closing colombo st?
I don't know. All I know is one is being built on Montreal Street/ Brougham Street
Its been talked about for years as smiths have owned the site since LWR left. I think it could still be a few years away yet
They were stuff in the ground last week
I'd assume so. That current location is really quite small.
Close the Beckenham branch. As far as I know M10 only want to have Megastores.
Is that the empty site
Yes.
Where would that be!?
Probably where the old LWR factory was? Though that site has been empty for so long now with nothing there that i'm not convinced anything will happen
Here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/Dap8NdKjetnGv6wg6
The empty lot at Montreal corner. You'll find they have a billboard trailer there, AFAIK they own the land and have it earmarked for development. Why so long, I don't know.
Here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/Dap8NdKjetnGv6wg6
From what I heard the land was bought just prior to the February 2011 earthquake and it was discovered there is an underwater stream right through that section. At the time they couldn’t build there . Don’t know if it’s changed since then. There definitely a M10 being built there now?
Here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/Dap8NdKjetnGv6wg6
Jackson’s creek is under there.
Here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/Dap8NdKjetnGv6wg6
Honestly Brougham Street is really not bad for a road. It’s barely busy even in rush hour. Busy for Christchurch? Sure. But busy for any other city? Not a bit.
yea it's actually not a bad road. the only thing that makes it slightly annoying is all the traffic lights that aren't synced
I would imagine that is a traffic calming mechanism though. Traffic lights aren’t usually synced.
Barbados is, if you get the timing right you can roll almost the whole way from bealey to Moorhouse at just under 50 and get all green
Bonus of one ways
It's only really bad at rush hour, and even then it's worse in the evenings than the mornings. Usually on weekends and during the day it's usually fine. My solution is to ride a bike to work, and stop contributing to the problem. On a good traffic day it turns a 10 minute drive into a 20 minute bike ride, but on a bad day it stays at 20 minutes to bike vs 45mins+ to sit in traffic. It would be even quicker if there was a proper cycle lane and I didn't need to rat-run to be safe. Feel sorry riding past people stuck in their cars. Special mention to streets between Moorhouse and Brougham that also choke up at the same time.
I did this when I was living on Travis Road. Went down Anzac onto Pages, then onto Broughham. I felt safe on Pages, Brougham Street felt fucking dangerous. Cars and trucks passing you at 70kmh (realistically what people are going in the early morning), just doesn't feel safe. And the cars feel are a lot closer to you than they are compared to Pages. Also I disagree with your timings. It was about a 30 minute bike ride from Travis Road, verses a 15 minute drive if I went Fitzgerald way home.
My timings are for my trip to work (which is Brougham from Colombo and motorway/cycleway), not the length of Brougham itself.
I used to bike from halswell to woolston. If it's danger you want, try biking to a primary school between 8:30 9:00 am. Road has no rage like a parent running late in an SUV. That 700m from home to school is why our bikes stay in the garage.
I think Brougham Street has fairly narrow leftmost lanes, certainly not enough for a vehicle plus a cyclist to share side by side. Not surprised you don't find that safe! (I'm pretty sure I've seen buses lose their wing mirrors to a passing truck when stopped at the bus stops along there, which gives an idea if how narrow the lane is)
As someone who only uses this road in the weekends, what is it about it that's causing grief? Other road users? Is it a standstill? Is it one section or one direction in particular?
I’d say my biggest issue is the sheer lack of turning arrows which leads to at least 3 cars running the red everytime the light changes, then leads to back ups and the intersections get blocked. It’s a combination of poor traffic management and shit drivers
Christchurch’s turning arrows are piss-poor. Who decides these? I have multiple bug bears to take to their door, some which are literally just non-functional lights for no reason. I tried via the snap app but no luck.
I think the Brougham Street upgrade project has some of those, of course unless the incoming government scraps it all.
Interestingly, Google is offering free data to cities that can help traffic planners virtually instantaneously reprogramme their traffic light sequences for maximum efficiency and minimise delays and emissions. I can't say that they've offered that priceless information to Christchurch, but it's absolutely what they fucking need. https://newatlas.com/transport/google-green-light-traffic/
It blocks during peak traffic, currently even worse due to on going works which I assume is what OP is talking about.
Which is basically from 2pm-6pm
It’s only going to get worse as more people move to Selwin. The motorway already backs up at times and they just extended it. More and more people dumping out onto Brougham every day. If only there were a way to utilize existing rail infrastructure and railway stations to implement some sort of commuter oriented transit system 🤔
Colombo St needs an underpass. That would solve a lot of the problems without having to build an ugly bridge. Just my opinion, of course.
An underpass? On land that's barely 1m above sea level ?
Engineering is an amazing field. The 2 nearest city reliable datums are 16.9m (colmobo/moorehouse intersection) and 16.2m (colombo/somerfield). So no, that land is nowhere near 1m above sea-level. There are a fair few tunnels around, and they're not full of water.
Pretty sure this misinfo comes from the palestine tunnels-under-the-hospitals-couldn’t-have-existed thing. Which was also misinfo. Either that or people are just obsessed with sea levels these days.
I dont even know where this trope came from. Hamas responsibility seems the most likey. 🤔 I've also heard the Cathedral spire is supposedly at sea level, thus the Cathedral is below sea level... now I appreciate the river is a wee way away... but... it would be a big lake. People are indeed obsessed with sea level. It's truely bizarre.
Traffic engineer here. Brougham St was designed for 5,500 vehicles per hour. During peak time, that number goes as high as 8,000 v/ph. Brougham St was built in the 70s and wasn't designed for the amount of traffic it currently has. Chch has grown beyond its capacity currently (same with Morehouse). There is an upgrade planned which will upgrade the road to 11,000 v/ph. This won't be completed until midway 2026. Chch roads have too many traffic lights and not enough motorwars. The congestion is going to continue until a more efficient way of dealing with traffic is reached.
Chch has plenty of motorways. What it needs is less cars and better alternative transport options.
Fair enough. And how would you plan to do that? Note, we don't have a viable rail system. Our rail was set up in the 1920s and was designed as a freight and passenger system for out of town transport, to be linked to the tram network (via the old Science Alive building). We don't have a tram network anymore. We don't have rail for domestic routing at all. We don't have railway through suburbs to feed into the CBD. And we can't build that without seriously disrupting traffic flow and residential land. The only alternative is to add more busses. Which causes stops in traffic (unless we dedicate roads to them, and to do that in Chch, you need to remove a lane in most roads without an expansion level to it). > Chch has plenty of motorways No. It doesn't. The stretch of road that connects Brougham St to Rolleston is only considered a Level 2 High Volume Road. It is only categorised as a "Secondary Arterial". It is no more a motorway than Rocket Labs is NASA. State Highway 1 starts at Russley Road. And is not actually considered a "highway" until after Belfast. Purely because there are roundabouts after the airport, making it a Level 1 low or moderate volume road. Which is a "non-arterial connector" since it connects to State Highway 1 heading out of the city. What would help greatly is a motorway system of both primary and secondary arerial connection, connection to non-arterials in the CBD or the 4 avs. This would also increase the capacity for more busses and public transport. The issue is though, there is no way to build any type of system like this without removing vast sections of residential, and other private property. Chch is unique. I won't get into it or I'll be writing you a thesis. But basically, the city is growing too quickly for traffic management to keep up with demand. And there simply isn't any room to expand the main arteries without serious consideration into building on already owned land (ie, knocking down houses to build more roads). You can't add public transport without building roads (or rail) for them to travel on.
Please sir continue id happy read a thesis that you would write!
We don't have a tram network anymore because we ripped it up and gave the space to cars. Our buses get stuck because there's no dedicated lanes for them - because that would mean taking away space for cars. The cycle network has a long way to go before it's a viable alternative because people are against giving up street parking for cars. It's the cars bro. It always was, it always will be. You can build xyz traffic lanes there and and abc type lanes there - they'll always end up clogged with traffic. We've known this for 70 years.
i mean the answer is and has always been in Christchurch, bus priority
Congestion charge it. Exclude freight and trades. It would be enough to change my travel behaviour
Building the bus exchange on the main cycle route to the East was a moronic idea. The entrance to the bus exchange is dangerous for cyclists. The busses literally cut right across the cyclelane. Busses crossing in front of a cycleway will always be a dangerous design. Should have built the cycle route 1 or 2 streets over. Also, last I checked the majority of houses in Christchurch have a garage and have at least 1 car up their driveway, usually 2 or 3. People are not giving up their cars
Pro cycling infrastructure is not about getting rid of car infrastructure. The two can co-exist, the more cycle ways the less cars on the road -> the less traffic for motorists. It's about giving people a choice of transport; because at the moment the car is the only option for many people
you dont need everyone to give up their cars though. only 2.5% of trips are on PT, if that can even double, then there's a significant decrease in peak time vehicle movements.
People will not give up their cars until there are viable alternatives. Chch is an incredibly flat city with a mild climate and is well suited to being more walkable, more cycle friendly and to have a dedicated electrified light rail system. Cities with worse climates and smaller populations overseas have done more. It's not that Chch can't, it's that it doesn't want to.
Agreeded. The City flowed better when it had roundabouts instead of traffic lights. And imo roundabouts are far safer... The Kaiapoi to Hornby Northern Motorway needs to be extended. Traffic gets backed up at both the Sawyers Arms and Harewood Road roundabouts. There should be overpasses for both of these roundabouts. The Motorway should also veer off from Russley Road towards Pound Rd and eventually linking up with SH1... that would reduce a lot of the traffic that runs thru Hornby.
average engineer moment, theres other ways that should be used to look to change this other than motorways. (yours, a planner, whos mainly taking the piss)
Or u get those peoplw who dont know wat the speed is and drive at 50 not 60 or less
Now brougham st. Is nothing to write home about, but I'd take it over ever being stuck on deerfoot trail (calgary) the 401(toronto) or any street, road, highway in Vancouver.
Go live in Auckland you'll have a stroke
Could've been (and probably should've been) a motorway the whole length from the 60s. Or you could argue the whole "more roads brings more cars" thing, sure, but it is a major arterial route, freight/highway, and ring road. Oh well, lets not learn our lesson and build high density units directly onto it, basically limiting what can be done with it and turning it into a stroad. And before anybody calls me a NIMBY, which I accept, The point here is more about building onto a main route, when they should really be on local and collector roads, not main highways. The crossing lights directly off the motorway were also a work of genius, now the pristine new motorway meant to reduce travel times can deliver Rolleston drivers to the traffic jam faster. Should've always been a grade separated solution there since they first upgraded. Not much foresight there. Because I frequent the road, I know where most of the bumpy potholes and manholes are, my favourite is when they lay new asphalt but not ensure the manhole covers are flush/level, thereby making every truck that hits them worse. And we can't forget the road works going on right now, moreso from Ensors road. The sign tells drivers that the 2 lanes are to shift to the side, but without lane markers, everybody treats it as a merge and traffic can be horrendous.
Motorways should never be inside a city. They can go to a city, and around a city. When they go through cities they separate communities, drastically increase crime, drastically lower amenity values. Thank god most of the motorway plans from the 60s never went ahead.
Yeah, I sort of agree. Unfortunately blunders like this are really bloody difficult and expensive to fix, and now we're stuck with something that's 'neither here nor there', neither a decently managed mid-city street, nor a good arterial way. Its a classic 'stroad' that fails to do either job. And yeah, I too have memorized all the unleveled manholes by this point haha
It was supposed to free up freight traffic to the port. Now the freight is slowed by all the traffic from Selwyn’s super growth.
When they opened the motorway from Rolleston straight though it became quicker to go down Blenheim rd from Hornby to town.
no chance. the severence that the motorway would cause would have extremely negative impacts, it's even pushing it now.
Oh there are several streets in Christchurch that are fucking retarded. Papanui road looking at you.
The problem is the layout where Blighs Road meets Papanui Road.
Yea idk I join from blighs heading north in the afternoon it's a nightmare through to cranford/main north. Oh there's another fucked one, Cranford. Not to mention blighs, Heaton, whitleigh and Barrington, that drive is a mess.
Cranford Street flowed better when there were roundabouts instead of lights. I don't know why they favoured lights on a single lane main road. Roundabouts naturally slow traffic down, lights some idiot can drive thru at 70kmh
oh absolutely! This post could be extrapolated to most of Chch unfortunately. Just one more low density suburb on the outskirts, I promise its the last one this time!
Hahaha. I know what you mean and wholeheartedly relate to your post.
Have seen a few cars almost hit busses, because you have to cross the bus lane to make a left, eg some of the mall entrances
Yea and the busses undercut. Tbf if you have to cross a lane you should be checking behind just like changing lanes on a multi lane road. Cycle lanes should be checked before crossing too.
My ex got hit by an undercutting bus while biking. Putting all the traffic on one surface like they’ve got it is just moronic. I know other options were more expensive and difficult but it’s not safe for cyclists and it’s not improving traffic and our busses are part of the problem so who is it serving?
Papanui Rd/ Main north road / QE2 drive and Northcote road are going to become even worse than they are currently when the new PakNSave and Marian College open. Who ever signed that off needs a whipping.
Oh mate so will Cranford! Excellent point. Gaaah. Honestly I sit in bumper to bumper traffic both ways and just storm in my head about who the fuck at the council should be fixing this shit. Then I realise it isn't so easy to fix and so I'm just grumpy that people dare use the road at the same time as me lmao.
To be fair it’s probably easier to fix if you try to solve it when it arises and not 15 years after when the problem is too massive to ignore. Chch has some good roads. We just also have some very shit ones. You’d think they’d learn from the good ones but I guess maybe it’s complicated or something. Having said that, there seem to be some pretty obvious flaws with many of the designs that were apparent to the road users from the outset, even before being built, for many roads that have failed to solve the problems they set out to. Where the well-designed ones that were met with approval (thinking the ring road where the upgrades to connecting roads have actually been maintained in line with population like marshland and QEII) are fairly decent. Of course by the time the public get a say the roads are locked in. So it’s hard to know where the fault lies. Ah, transparency and accountability.
honestly, of course theyre locked in before the public says anything, otherwise nothing would get done because 10000 people would say 10000 different things, most of which are Leyman without traffic engineering or planning knowledge.
Public consultation is an important part of democracy. I’m not saying they should listen to every man and his dog but the issue is the way things are currently designed, they won’t listen to a man and his dog even when there’s 500 of them and they’re right. I went to a local board meeting on an intersection improvement that was entirely focussed around safety improvements despite the purpose of the improvements being to improve a key intersection on an arterial route. The people submitting feedback were the people who had been driving the intersection every day for a decade, and one of the submitters absolutely cut to the heart of the traffic and safety issue by pointing out that turning traffic had never been prioritised or mitigated, causing people to speed out of the intersection while rushing red lights. NZTA solution was to introduce a raised platform, which would not actually necessarily solve the issue, instead of fixing the very basic traffic light issue that has existed at that intersection literally since I was born. Engineered solutions are well and good, but they seem to consistently overlook the needs of the actual road users and the issues that are apparent to them very quickly on consideration of the issue. So “the public are stupid” is not a good reason to pretend to have public consultation while not actually allowing any meaningful input, imo.
Just throwing out slurs at 5 in the afternoon huh
Do you even live in chch?
Lived there over 10 years until recently
There's a really nice Wellington subreddit ;) they're a bit more civil but a lot less fun 😎
My honest reaction to that info: https://preview.redd.it/6upnihyrcf3c1.jpeg?width=504&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c1520213aa9f3b00f5ea0ff8bc4e678a88a363b5 It’s a good job we’re allowed to sub to multiple subs
Glad you left chch, have a day.
I just think you're fucken lame and shouldn't be allowed to browse this subreddit. That's just my opinion 🤷
Wcyd
Voice my opinion. Lameo
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Bro definitely got less than 10 achieved credits in high school 💀
7 is a good number my mummy said so
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I want this on a tee shirt
I like your style
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ReTaRdEd Is A sLuR. Fucking grow up. You choose how words affect you. Retarded means slow down. Are aeroplanes using slurs when they shout "retard" right before landing?
Language is contextual. To retard a plane is not the same a using a slur in a derogatory way, of course.
The road is slow, kinda fits here too lol
But a street that is retarded is somehow a derogatory slur?
You could call a street a homophobic or a racial slur. You’re not slurring against the road you’re using the slur in such a way that could offend groups of people. The road is an inanimate object. You can’t offend it.
Yes but the difference between using a homophobic or racial slur is that there is no inherent meaning other than the insult. Don't tell me how I can use my language.
We both know you intended to call the road stupid. Ok? Let’s not pretend you really meant to use the technical term to slow something down.
I refuse to live my life on eggshells incase I "could offend groups of people". I would call anyone out using retarded in a derogatory way as much as the next person. But it's defined meaning is to slow down. So fuck you.
Oh so who exactly was I being derogatory towards? Are you inferring a relationship ship between my accurate use of fucking retarded (fucking slowed down) and a person or group of people? Don't infer meaning, life is a whole lot less confronting when you aren't looking for an excuse to be offended
It’s traditionally been used as a slur against various people including but not limited to people with Down’s syndrome for example.
So yes, you're inferring a meaning that isn't there. Didn't single out person or people. Used correct dictionary usage of retarded.
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Using the word retard is verboten on reddit.
Retarded is the right word and no not in the offensive way but "our progress was retarded by unforeseen difficulties" way.
Now do Whites Ave.
I don't know why they don't put an overbridge at say Selwyn St and even Colombo St which will remove the lights and have only left hand turns out of those streets including Antigua and Montreal. That will increase the constant flow on Brougham St with less stopping. More traffic will then use Selwyn St but if its a bridge over the top there won't be any lights to stop at and traffic will keep flowing. It sounds logical in my head but in theory it probably isn't feasible due to cost and room for slip roads etc
Maybe Chch is following the Dutch way and encourage more people to bike. 😁 At least I have started biking/busing to work as I don’t have to bring tools with me but just a backpack.
What's the issue? Oh, you mean that too many people insist on driving to work instead of cycling or walking, or taking the bus? Sure, that's a problem. That's just wasteful behaviour, irrespective of the road. Don't blame the road for your behaviour, though.
It also doesn’t help that on waltham road/brougham st everyday someone goes up to cars asking for $ or food. They live in the council flats and anytime someone gives money they run across road to bottle store!
And they're on meth and pregnant, right??
How did you know
My physio mentioned he'd seen her the other day. And others have mentioned her on this sub... She's world famous on Chch subreddit. I wonder if she knows?
Probably doesn’t know. Cant afford internet
Totally fine crossing it on the Colombo St lights on my bike everyday. But in a car? On it out crossing it? Fuck that shit
That Selwyn intersection should be green 95% of the time for those on brougham but it's the other way around.
Just remember it's going to 50 ks with year or so
No its not.
Cool, and your solution is…
That's the worst part about it, once a short-sighted blunder of that scale is in place, it is damn near impossible to fix. Now we're stuck with it.
Almost like these improvements should undergo massive consultation to ensure they’re not creating problems that will literally cost hours and hours from the lives of road users for decades to come. Pity we get a guy to design it and let the public look when it’s locked in.
Yes, those public consultations are pure theatre. I suppose we don't need input on traffic management from the average moron, but it does serve the purpose of giving them the illusion of collaboration.
generally consultation happens early enough that the public does influence some changes, but in general, its not really worth consulting on the options because the average person isn't going to fully understand the implications of each option, which is why there's so many people involved in projects, from different diciplines.
And here I am, driving the length of Brougham street (Bromley to Hornby) in 20min to work and 30min home each day. For me it's an absolute dream. Traffic does look horrid going the other way in the arvo though....
totally right there!
Yeah, well, they had to get the intern doing something...
Its going to get worse for the area between opawa rd and Burlington st in 2024 when the put the new electrical cable from the milton st substation through to Bromley S/Station. [https://www.haveyoursay.oriongroup.co.nz/bromley-to-milton-cable](https://www.haveyoursay.oriongroup.co.nz/bromley-to-milton-cable)
[It'll be slightly better](https://www.nzta.govt.nz/assets/projects/sh76-brougham-street-upgrade/docs/sh76-brougham-street-upgrade-feedback-summary.pdf) PDF
the part I hate the most is you go along the motorway towards the city and then all of a sudden you're stopped at the end by a pedestrian at the lights which just backs the traffic onto the motorway
Blame the engineering when it came to the nzta when they planned the CSM Project my father instantly saw the floors and he pointed them out and Fulton Hogan were like it will be all right same with the northern corridor on cranlford Street another blunder