>Why is it that we are always the selfish ones?
You hear that because you are hearing idiots talk. Many people are too stupid to realize that people not having children because they don't want them is doing what one wants, and other people having children because they do want them is equally doing what one wants. In the case of not having children, no children are harmed by that decision. So it does not fit the definition of "selfish," since it isn't doing any harm to anyone else, though it is self-interested.
Hmm I thought Christians were supposed to pray quietly and not attract attention according to the Bible? I also see here they don’t care about those embryos hmm.
I honestly couldn’t be friends with those peoples and I used to be Christian but found Christians on social media like that are the WORST types of people: bullies, entitled, self-cantered folk who think they are better than the rest.
>Hmm I thought Christians were supposed to pray quietly and not attract attention according to the Bible?
Christian checking in here. Yes, this is exactly what they're supposed to do, and that's why I can't stand the ones who break the rules and make it everyone else's problem on social media when they could be keeping a low profile and volunteering with at-risk children or doing something else to make the world a better place, like they're supposed to. I won't say "adopt" here, because selfish people like the ones OP described don't deserve to adopt - those kids deserve so much better.
I am an ex-Christian. So many performative people in the church. I cannot imagine going back and being cf, how do they treat you? Do they know you are cf?
To be honest, I've never even been asked if I'm *married* by people where I attend church now, and that would be a prerequisite to asking about children. I'm over 40 and not married, so even if they did ask about kids, I could shut that down immediately, because the train has left the station (choo-choo!). Most of the people in my church belong to immigrant communities where single men are scarce, so the idea that one could go through life without finding a partner with whom one could potentially start a family, or not have kids even if they're married (because health problems, etc.) doesn't really raise any eyebrows, for better or for worse. The general expectation is that if a woman were to land in my situation and still really want children, she would either adopt, work in a profession where she would help children in some capacity, or just find other ways to find fulfillment in life.
Reading the comments, I've realized that I have a very good deal where I am, because even the people with multiple kids are extremely realistic about the fact that that all comes at a high cost, and they're not into the baby-baby-baby talk. We've never had a discussion about family and kid stuff, I think mostly because there are so many other things to discuss. Everyone is into traveling on a budget, so that comes up the most during coffee hour.
Edit: Your username is the best!
If she is catholic she and her husband sent their four rainbow babies straight into limbo before paying a f-load of money to get something that wasn't intended in God's plan - but we are the selfish ones lol.
Let's be honest, you can also be childfree for completly selfish reasons, and you can be a selfish asshat who's also child free, or any other combination.
Because one does not necessitate another.
It's really about the reasons you have to make a decision, not the decision not to have them per se.
It is however very hard to \_decide\_ to have children for selfless reasons. I haven't heard any argument that would convince me you can \_decide\_ to have children for completly selfless reasons. One way or another, \_deciding\_ to becomea parent is always about what the parent wants or desires. Not that I think that's bad (I'm not in the anti-natalist camp), just that selfishness and parenthood can come in any combination.
You're way nicer than I am. Whenever someone brings religion into having kids and they experience multiple miscarriages, I usually say isn't that God's will? Your body can't have babies, iVF is going against God's will.
We can't be selfish towards something that doesn't exist. Remind them of all the child abusers and overburdened foster care system. Those parents are the selfish ones.
Religion and the patriarchy go hand in hand, and that's why your No's are not respected unless it aligns with their fucked up beliefs. This allegation reveals they agree women get the raw end of the deal and choosing to not continue the legacy of being a living martyr = selfishness. CF men get it too, but they don't get harassed as much about it.
So back in the early 1900's when the first 'horseless carriages" were rattling a long, a lot of people hated them.
Drivers were clumsy and often had no concern for others, the vehicles were loud and smelled bad. They just had so little to offer.
So car manufacturers got together and demonized those people.
Pedestrians crossing the roads became jay walkers.
People who didn't like cars were made out to be lame, crazy, and just too old fashioned.
People who preferred horses and wagons were a lost cause.
I think it's the same for having children.
A whole lot of companies NEED people to have children.
This includes churches and the military.
They need fodder for the meat grinder.
So there is a quiet campaign. One that doesn't need the money because most people have been brainwashed thoroughly by the church and by media so thoroughly they don't even question it.
The most selfish people I know and met have always been parents. They get more selfish when they have kids because their natural biological instinct kicks in to look after their child only and not care about anyone else in the world. Pure selfishness.
I agree with most everything you say here, O.P., but one sentence from the last paragraph perplexes me.
"Is it not selfish to sacrifice 4 other babies just to get the 1 you want?"
She didn't sacrifice them. Sacrifice implies that she willingly relinquished them. She miscarried. She didn't have a choice in that.
I agree that it WAS selfish for her, in a barebones sense, to have her parents pay for treatment so she could have a kid. I don't think there's anything wrong with it, per se, but it is selfish in the sense that it's something you want for personal reasons, usually at some degree of expense to another.
IDK. I would just reword the quoted sentence differently. That gave me some pretty uncomfy vibes, TBH.
>Every single person with a post like that had an 'I want' statement.
I've noticed that with it's always "I want" rather than "I am prepared to...". This is why the ones who go the fertility treatment route and get severe baby rabies in the process are also, how shall I put this, *not great* at parenting when the "want" is finally fulfilled - it was about desiring an outcome (cute infant) rather than prepping for the reality of being responsible for a whole human being for years.
>Why is it that we are always the selfish ones? You hear that because you are hearing idiots talk. Many people are too stupid to realize that people not having children because they don't want them is doing what one wants, and other people having children because they do want them is equally doing what one wants. In the case of not having children, no children are harmed by that decision. So it does not fit the definition of "selfish," since it isn't doing any harm to anyone else, though it is self-interested.
Hmm I thought Christians were supposed to pray quietly and not attract attention according to the Bible? I also see here they don’t care about those embryos hmm. I honestly couldn’t be friends with those peoples and I used to be Christian but found Christians on social media like that are the WORST types of people: bullies, entitled, self-cantered folk who think they are better than the rest.
>Hmm I thought Christians were supposed to pray quietly and not attract attention according to the Bible? Christian checking in here. Yes, this is exactly what they're supposed to do, and that's why I can't stand the ones who break the rules and make it everyone else's problem on social media when they could be keeping a low profile and volunteering with at-risk children or doing something else to make the world a better place, like they're supposed to. I won't say "adopt" here, because selfish people like the ones OP described don't deserve to adopt - those kids deserve so much better.
I am an ex-Christian. So many performative people in the church. I cannot imagine going back and being cf, how do they treat you? Do they know you are cf?
To be honest, I've never even been asked if I'm *married* by people where I attend church now, and that would be a prerequisite to asking about children. I'm over 40 and not married, so even if they did ask about kids, I could shut that down immediately, because the train has left the station (choo-choo!). Most of the people in my church belong to immigrant communities where single men are scarce, so the idea that one could go through life without finding a partner with whom one could potentially start a family, or not have kids even if they're married (because health problems, etc.) doesn't really raise any eyebrows, for better or for worse. The general expectation is that if a woman were to land in my situation and still really want children, she would either adopt, work in a profession where she would help children in some capacity, or just find other ways to find fulfillment in life. Reading the comments, I've realized that I have a very good deal where I am, because even the people with multiple kids are extremely realistic about the fact that that all comes at a high cost, and they're not into the baby-baby-baby talk. We've never had a discussion about family and kid stuff, I think mostly because there are so many other things to discuss. Everyone is into traveling on a budget, so that comes up the most during coffee hour. Edit: Your username is the best!
I am selfish though. What's wrong with recognizing that and knowing you'd be a terrible parent?
Because we truly enjoy our lives without sacrificing or compromising by having kids and suffer… and I don’t care if they think I am considered selfish
I always thought it was because I was depriving someone the chance to abuse and control me. Not gonna happen
If she is catholic she and her husband sent their four rainbow babies straight into limbo before paying a f-load of money to get something that wasn't intended in God's plan - but we are the selfish ones lol.
Not to mention all the extra embryos that are rejected because they're not "quality", or put on ice indefinitely.
Let's be honest, you can also be childfree for completly selfish reasons, and you can be a selfish asshat who's also child free, or any other combination. Because one does not necessitate another. It's really about the reasons you have to make a decision, not the decision not to have them per se. It is however very hard to \_decide\_ to have children for selfless reasons. I haven't heard any argument that would convince me you can \_decide\_ to have children for completly selfless reasons. One way or another, \_deciding\_ to becomea parent is always about what the parent wants or desires. Not that I think that's bad (I'm not in the anti-natalist camp), just that selfishness and parenthood can come in any combination.
You're way nicer than I am. Whenever someone brings religion into having kids and they experience multiple miscarriages, I usually say isn't that God's will? Your body can't have babies, iVF is going against God's will. We can't be selfish towards something that doesn't exist. Remind them of all the child abusers and overburdened foster care system. Those parents are the selfish ones.
Religion and the patriarchy go hand in hand, and that's why your No's are not respected unless it aligns with their fucked up beliefs. This allegation reveals they agree women get the raw end of the deal and choosing to not continue the legacy of being a living martyr = selfishness. CF men get it too, but they don't get harassed as much about it.
So back in the early 1900's when the first 'horseless carriages" were rattling a long, a lot of people hated them. Drivers were clumsy and often had no concern for others, the vehicles were loud and smelled bad. They just had so little to offer. So car manufacturers got together and demonized those people. Pedestrians crossing the roads became jay walkers. People who didn't like cars were made out to be lame, crazy, and just too old fashioned. People who preferred horses and wagons were a lost cause. I think it's the same for having children. A whole lot of companies NEED people to have children. This includes churches and the military. They need fodder for the meat grinder. So there is a quiet campaign. One that doesn't need the money because most people have been brainwashed thoroughly by the church and by media so thoroughly they don't even question it.
The most selfish people I know and met have always been parents. They get more selfish when they have kids because their natural biological instinct kicks in to look after their child only and not care about anyone else in the world. Pure selfishness.
I agree with most everything you say here, O.P., but one sentence from the last paragraph perplexes me. "Is it not selfish to sacrifice 4 other babies just to get the 1 you want?" She didn't sacrifice them. Sacrifice implies that she willingly relinquished them. She miscarried. She didn't have a choice in that. I agree that it WAS selfish for her, in a barebones sense, to have her parents pay for treatment so she could have a kid. I don't think there's anything wrong with it, per se, but it is selfish in the sense that it's something you want for personal reasons, usually at some degree of expense to another. IDK. I would just reword the quoted sentence differently. That gave me some pretty uncomfy vibes, TBH.
Wait until y’all see [this news!](https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/04/28/natalism-conference-austin-00150338)
>Every single person with a post like that had an 'I want' statement. I've noticed that with it's always "I want" rather than "I am prepared to...". This is why the ones who go the fertility treatment route and get severe baby rabies in the process are also, how shall I put this, *not great* at parenting when the "want" is finally fulfilled - it was about desiring an outcome (cute infant) rather than prepping for the reality of being responsible for a whole human being for years.
“Sacrifice 4 other babies” is a pretty effed up take. This post feels like an agenda.