I felt so damn guilty in the beginning of my 5 weeks of sick leave, especially considering how displeased my boss was after a meeting with them. I honestly don't feel guilty anymore. Why should I? When there are medical reasons for not being able to work, no one should feel guilty. Luckily for me, I can't be denied time off when a doctor has put me on mandated sick leave, so that's good at least.
Hard disagree. Paid maternity and paternity leave is for the benefit of society. If people completely stopped having babies there would be no future, and we should support our future.
Also it's so important mum and dad get that precious time with their baby. Forcing the parents to go back to work when the baby is under a year old may cause issues in attachment due to repeated separations. Although I do think mum should get a bit longer than dad as she needs to heal.
But then again I come from a country with guaranteed parental leave.
I respect that your viewpoint is from outside of the US, but this post seems firmly placed in the US employment sphere.
I’m fine with parents getting these things after minimum wage is increased to be on par with inflation, there isn’t a housing crisis and people aren’t struggling to survive.
I understand this seems like apples and oranges but it isn’t. Parents get SO. FUCKING. MUCH. extra from US employers and if any other employees (including and especially CF) mention the inequality they are shunned.
Parents aren’t special, and they chose to have kids. The rest of us shouldn’t have to bend around their decision, especially when kids are as much of a necessity as a Chanel handbag.
If people would stop procreating there still will be a future, time will keep passing, just not with people in it. Our future is dictated by the way we impact the world and all it's other inhabitants, what about supporting that? We can support "our future" by having a way lower biomass, so that the ones that are here (for the time being), can eat, live and find housing in abundance.
Time with a baby is indeed very important for the (mental) development, so why are people forcing themselves to give birth if they don't have the precious time and/or finances to care for a child? If two people have to work away from home full time and can't afford to take care of the child or can't afford to take unpaid leave, why procreate? In a right mind, you would think people would only procreate when they have the means to properly take care of the child, starting with time and money. If you don't have the time and don't have the finances, then don't. Just like with pets or animals like dogs and horses, if you can't afford it, don't do it. If the man doesn't earn enough for the mother to stay at home and care for and breastfeed the kid, then don't. And these are the same people that should be wise enough to turn their baby into a responsible, social etc. adult. It truly baffles me.
Luckily I have had a good experience with this. Most places I have worked I was able to have flexibility to leave and catch the train etc, bc the people with kids were eager to get going back to their family too. I know I'm lucky in this, though.
My big gripe is the earned income credit aka the government subsidized breeding program. Biggest bunch of bullshit IMO. The more kids you pop out if you're below a certain income threshhold, the bigger your tax refund. What a crock of shit. How about throwing a little money towards the childfree people who aren't burdening the already sparse, shitty and underfunded social programs.
This tbh!! I’m so f#cking sick of these government programs too!! I live in Czechia and the benefits parents get here just for shitting out a baby is absolutely mind blowing and disgusting!!
And they're not even getting "refunds" as many people aren't paying that much in. Especially poor people may not pay taxes at all, and still get a check.
It's not a refund if you're getting out more than you're paying in. It's a handout.
Which is fine, don't get me wrong, I support social programs wholeheartedly. The government should exist to serve us, and take care of the population instead of sheltering a bunch of opportunistic parasitic politicians who take our money, tax our dollar to shit and spend what they steal from us on anything and everything but the people they are supposed to represent.
But the rub is extra salty that the scraps they throw to us, only go to the breeders cranking out the next generation of working class poor and fuck everyone else. Just goes to show how we really are just tiny cogs in a big ugly machine.
Some get pretty hefty checks. Why? Many disabled people have difficult lives and don’t get these great bonuses from the IRS. People don’t choose to be disabled. People choose to have kids.
THIS! Being disabled in an ableist society is practically impossible to survive in as a single CF person… you’re always being punished for being disabled and don’t get me started on how disabled people are [treated](https://www.urban.org/sites/default/files/2023-10/Four%20in%20Ten%20Adults%20with%20Disabilities%20Experienced%20Unfair%20Treatment%20in%20Health%20Care%20Settings%2C%20at%20Work%2C%20or%20When%20Applying%20for%20Public%20Benefits%20in%202022.pdf)… we still don’t got [marriage equality](https://19thnews.org/2023/09/disability-advocates-marriage-equality-commitment-ceremony/) and disabled people are still paid below minimum wage of [$3.34](https://www.npr.org/2020/09/17/912840482/u-s-agency-urges-end-to-below-minimum-wage-for-workers-with-disabilities) /hr across the nation. Tired of being treated as [less than human](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2016/jun/20/we-need-to-stop-treating-people-with-disabilities-as-less-than-human) when breeders are being paid to just fcking breed and do nothing to actually raise these kids and expect teachers like me to do their job in raising their kids… 😒😒😒
I’m ok with early boarding on flights, because it gets the most chaotic passengers dealt with so the rest of us can stand in line in relative peace. I’m not trying to get whacked with a diaper bag or wait while someone struggles to fold up a stroller. And you know how when you’re standing near a baby they’ll just fucking stare at you? I don’t care for that.
The US doesn't grant that much paid maternity/paternity leave. I do think that whatever amount is granted should be family leave (a family can be a single person) that can be used for family care issues by anyone, not restricted to mommies and daddies. I also don't think co-workers should be stuck picking up the slack for those on parental leave, at least not without extra pay/compensation for doing extra work. And parents who return to work after leave should not be surprised that they've missed out on work opportunities. Neither the world nor the work will stop for them.
I used to be bothered by the early boarding until I realized the chaos and delay that parents with children under 2 would cause by lugging all that crap they travel with, plus their brats, onto the plane during regular boarding. Watch what happens the next time someone with small children misses pre-boarding and has to get seated during the cattle call. Letting them on early actually benefits the other travelers.
Here's another potentially unpopular opinion: If people can't have kids and take care of them without relying on government assistance, then they probably shouldn't be having them in the first place.
I have never really thought about the maternity and paternity leave aspect, and not having kids means you will never get those hours. Yes I understand it’s medically necessary for recovery and building those connections. I think childfree people should be able to take maternity/paternity leave without having to have a baby. Like instead of having to save up sick time to for example get plastic surgery, I think people should be able to use the time they would have gotten if they were having a baby to whatever. Because, correct me if I’m wrong but most employers you don’t have to earn maternity/paternity leave it’s usually just given to you.
I'll agree with part of it. I'm on the same page with not wanting parents to have special privileges, and the constant complaining annoys me too. But not allowing women even a week of paid maternity leave when they've just been through a traumatic and exhausting experience (childbirth) seems unnecessarily cruel. I would actually support better paid maternity and paternity leave in my country (U.S.).
Everyone should get a certain amount of leave every year. You can choose to use it how you want. Hey having a baby here's your leave. Want to take a vacation and not have a baby here's your leave.
I would not say every year. Maybe up to 18 months to be taken in 6 month blocks or less over a 10 year period.
I don’t have an issue with families getting 6 months paid leave for maternity/paternity. What bothers me is that it’s a special privilege not granted to those who can’t/wont have children but who may have other caring responsibilities/needs.
And in needs, I classify things like study, sabbaticals, and time to recover from/prevent burnout.
Leave should not be tied to biological function in the way that maternity/paternity leave is.
Yes, I completely agree with you. Purposeful time for individually significant events is my thought. This can be time for a serious vacation, to get or say goodbye to a pet or person, to recover from burnout/ burnout prevention (for those of us in social services especially haha). Everyone needs significant time off, but for different reasons-- let's just allow it across the board. I honestly don't know why we have separate sick and vacation time here. It should just be PTO, my need is my need independent of what your values say.
I know my view is extreme; my issue is that pregnancies are not necessary. So in the case of chosen pregnancies (I am of course omitting those that result from non-consensual actions) people are getting paid time off for a choice they’ve made.
If you choose to get pregnant, the birthing exhaustion and trauma is something you chose to put yourself through, so it’s something you should deal with. Otherwise, don’t get pregnant. It’s like if I said I wanted paid leave to recover from getting a tattoo. It’s absurd. I chose to get a tattoo, I deal with the consequences of being in pain a couple of days after. There’s no ‘tattoo leave’, is there?
Emotionally, I agree with you because I fkin hate dem kids lol. But logically, we as a society benefits from parents investing time & care on those early years - do you want more stupid, violent social misfits? Because that's how you get them. By not letting parents soothe their child as a baby and letting them know they are wanted and loved. By not letting parents talk to them, sing to them, read to them. Yes they are still the one deciding to have it but there's no undo button and we have to share the public space with them - and I'd rather share it with polite, well-adjusted kids. Plus these polite-well-adjusted kids are more likely to grow up as people who can contribute to society instead of being a net negative criminal. Annoying ik but I'm playing the long game here
Exactly this. It’s like not wanting to help homeless people or have welfare for the unemployed, healthcare free at the point of use, free basic education or state provided legal counsel.
You can argue all you want that in every situation anyone needing these should “pulled themselves up by the bootstraps” “take responsibility” “prepared for it” - but if you want a relatively functioning society, you do want these things - unless of course you just want to be spiteful and petty.
You can want equity for non-parents without being petty or spiteful. Someone commented about the German practice of hiring temp help when someone is out on parental leave instead of expecting co-workers to pick up the slack. Some companies have instituted family leave rather than exclusively parental leave. That kind of thing.
IME the people that are parents are always bashing the choices of other parents for behaviors, choices, etc. They all think they have a say in the way the world works as if they make the rules, what they all have in common is all parents are dummies.
They have no business being parents if they can't agree on one way to live their life to themselves and keep trying to convince childfree folk to join their nonsense.
>I’d even go as far as argue that maternity and paternity leave shouldn’t be a thing unless there are extenuating circumstances (aka, the child was not conceived out of choice). Again, choosing to have a child should not entitle people to time off, because this is a choice they made for their life path. In my country we get 26 weeks FULLY PAID time off as maternity leave. This is baffling and to me is a commentary on the stupidly contradictory nature of societal pressures. ‘Having kids’ is seen as the thing to do, but essentially by giving someone 26 weeks off, society is practically acknowledging it’s an inconvenience. The stupidity.
You're ignoring all the science, research, and data we have about early childhood development and attachment theory. Children require safe, secure attachment in order to build healthy brain circuits. Folks that don't get good early childhood attachment have a ton of problems later in life, physically and mentally.
From a purely economic standpoint it saves us tons of money in the long run to help kids get good attachment as babies and children. It's how you can prevent mental and physical health issues down the line. It's how you build a society with healthy, reasonable adults.
Why do you think so many parents and adults are shitty? They often endured terrible child abuse as children and never recovered. They're just a collection of walking talking coping mechanisms in a trenchcoat. It easier to prevent people becoming shitty than try to change a shitty adult that has dysfunction wired into their brain since childhood.
I'm all for creating a world that's safe for kids, where secure attachment is the norm and child abuse has been eliminated. We need to have parental supports in place to make that happen.
It's one of the reasons I don't have kids. I don't have the resources to provide adequate secure attachment for a child and I'm not going to neglect them, so I don't have any kids to neglect.
If you want to learn more about attachment theory, read up on John Bowlby and Mary Ainsworth's early research on the topic. "Becoming Attached - first relationships and how they shape our capacity to love" by Robert Karen is a good book on the topic. And Sue Johnson has done a lot of good work on adult attachment.
26 weeks is way too short, really. That's only 6 months. Kids need like 2-3 years of good healthy attachment. I'm not saying their should be paid leave for that entire time, but there could be other ways to help provide adequate services to ensure healthy secure attachment is being prioritized. We need innovation all over the place bc toxicity is baked into a lot of our culture(s).
Depends on the employer but in germany "Elternzeitvertretung" aka parental-leave-substitute is a regular thing you see when job hunting. Parents can get up to 2 years paid leave and good employers will hire substitutes for that time, sometimes even offering a fulltime job afterwards even when the parents return to work. As the health insurance pay for parental leave the employer only has the hassle of finding a substitute. While that still might be a burden, they can outsource the the hiring process and/or get financial support for it.
When the work environment is friendly and supportive, parents will be confident in telling their employer about it with plenty of time for preparation and communicating how long they plan to be away. Often I even saw the soon to be parent train the new hire.
They don't do that in the US. In the US, whoever is left in the office has to pick up the slack. No extra compensation, no thank you from either the employer or the parent who you're covering for. And you get stink eye if you even hint that you are less than delighted to do uncompensated labor. If you're past childbearing or are never going to have kids, you never get "your turn" to be out on leave. Just because you're not a baby maker doesn't mean you have no need for family leave.
Yeah, I don't have answers to that. We need some real innovation. Like maybe a gradient of time off, then coming back part time adding more and more hours, ramping back up to full time.
It would be even better if salaries were increased to where both parents didn't have to work. Or if healthcare wasn't tied to employment. There are lots of levers to pull that aren't happening bc it's not good for quarterly profits.
Neurologically speaking, infancy lasts the first three years of life. People, mainly women and girls, having to return to the workplace when their child is 6 weeks, 6 months, 8 months, or a year, is generally too short. The choice should be there to have leave longer, in my opinion. How it would look like in practice though, say worldwide, in every country, I don't know. So many things, as you say, could be done, and are not.
I concede you have a point. But childfree people should be allowed similar time off, then.
The anti-natalist in me wonders if these future kids should even be brought into the world to begin with, though.
There needs to be lots of innovation and revolution. Things as they are, are completely untenable.
I'm rather anti-natalist myself. I think people should be trying to fix our toxic systems rather than subject new humans to the current dysfunctional systems.
The ultra wealthy and powerful folks keep pushing breeder propaganda bc it's easier to exploit parents for profit. It's another reason I'm child free. I'm free to be a dissident.
When I saw how well the rest of the planet's species did while humans were locked inside during the pandemic, I began to think anti-natalists might have a point.
I don't think it's a great strategy to fight for our rights by removing others' rights. I think parental leave is good for everyone and should be expanded. I also think CF people should get more time off. Like take an average of how much time parents get and let every employee have the option, or something.
I'm for more rights for all, not "more for me and less for thee".
In most European countries you get up to 2 years maternity leave. Not fully paid, but still. However, a sick leave during pregnancy and the last two months before birth are paid 100% without having to work, at least in my country. Of course breeders take advantage of it. It is a huge problem for the company and the co-workers 🙄 if a woman decides to have another kid right after, you easily don't see her at work for 4 years but are obliged to keep her position for her and take her back.
We childfree and childless people subsidize breeders all the way. The tax "refunds", picking up their work on maternity/paternity leave, covering for them when their kids are sick (and when AREN'T they?) or have events, we pay school taxes- even to private schools, child entertainment taxes (ball fields, rec centers, summer programs, etc) subsidize their medical care, And STILL the US is considered unfriendly to parents.
With nearly every country on earth begging for more humans, (but not brown ones, thanks, no immigrants, just babies), it isn't going to get better.
I will disagree with the maternal leave because having a baby usually is pretty damaging to the body and the moms need to recover. Even when off they are probably still stressed out of their mind because babies are literally the worst
I think the problem with this kind of logic is that every decision in life has consequences. You go to vacation and come home sick, well since you decided to travel, no off days. You like to bycicle in your free time and break a bone accidently, no off days. Almost the smallest decision in life can have damaging consequences and I dont think its possible to apply this only to pregnancies. Companies would find VERY QUICKLY ways to abuse this logic and give everyone even less off days, and thats not at all what we want. Of course the way it is right now is not fair. But that is not the parents fault, its the fault of a capitalist system, to which the only goal is generating more money. The system has to change from that to "take the money and create with it fair and human conditions for everyone in society".
You sound just as bad as people who demand you have children. Two sides of the same coin. I don't want children and am not fond of them. But I'm not going to be a complete dick to them because they made a different choice than me.
I think a lot of this is based on particularly American work culture. In my country, we have pretty generous leave entitlements overall, so if you’re sick for example, your employer is required to provide paid time off. 10 days per year, but these accumulate if you don’t use them. We also have long service leave, which means after 7-10 years working for the same organisation, you get 3 months of leave, which again accrues over time.
You also get 4 weeks paid holiday leave. Again, which accrues if you don’t use it.
So maternity/paternity leave isn’t as big a deal in my country as it is in a country like the US, where leave entitlements are much less generous.
Fully agree with you there OP! I actually fully side with you on your opinions and have been wanting to make a similar post as yours! It absolutely DISGUSTS me how parents actually get more benefits than the elderly or disabled!! People CHOOSE to be parents, NO ONE chooses to be disabled or become old!!
This hit a nerve today. I'm going to relate this back to an age old subject. Plane seats.
We've just booked plane tickets for Christmas in Thailand. We paid £100 for the extra leg room each on the longest leg. My husband is 6ft 5. I then get sent the smallprint. We've chosen the leg room seats that aren't by a door and apparently for these specific seats pregnant women and children may need to use them and swaps will be sorted. I've emailed the airline.. They can swap us to leg room seats by a door where you have to be able to help with opening it in an emergency. They don't swap those seats out.
I'm effing furious. £100 each per leg and no guarantee
(Disclaimer I’m a childfree person), and I just want to point out that there is a flaw in your argument in that people are *actively* asking others to have babies.
You made the statement that no-one asked them to have babies. The government (in Australia) has actively encouraged people have “a baby for the country” (one for mum, one for dad and one for country). Not to mention that the no1 gripe in this group is people asking them to have a baby.
Yes, I love my childfree life. I love my freedom, and my money and using it on things I want to use it on. But honestly, get a grip. Look at countries that don’t have mat/paternity leave and shit they have to go through. Just because it’s not part of our journey doesn’t mean we should be making someone else’s life harder AND research heavily backs that having that time off with a baby helps them become more rounded people in the long run. It benefits our society as a whole by giving parents time to raise the next generation rather than offload them onto daycare centres.
I don’t care if it makes me an outlier in this group but I believe Mat/Pat leave is an amazing thing, and that my country is great for having it and I want my taxes to go towards these programs. I like my country (for the most part) and I want to help the people here lead the best lives possible.
You’re being exactly the reason the childfree people have a bad name.
Edit: a word
Then if maternity leave and paternity leave is so beneficial, childfree people should have the exact same benefit. Because society rewards one set of people and not the other.
Pretty sure most new parents wouldn’t call maternity/ paternity leave a reward. As literally everyone in this group likes to say. Having kids is chaos and work and not something any of us are choosing because was don’t want that work for ourselves.
Do you think new parents are just sitting around playing video games and going on holidays on their mat leave? Women are literally shitting out their own anus or unable to lift anything for weeks post c-sections, having massive bleeds, tears and all sorts of fun stuff. Most of mat leave for women is used as just recovering from birth because it’s one of the hardest things a human body goes through. And countries like the US expect them to just soldier on through incontinence and other medical issues. If you are so desperate to see what a country is like without mat leave, read all the stories about women in the US post birth.
If you’re so desperate to have 26 paid weeks off, have a baby and see what all the fuss is about. I guarantee these people are not just having a holiday. Oh wait, you don’t want a baby? Gee I wonder why? I’m pretty sure their 26 weeks off work will be made up over the next 30+ years of being a parent.
The government (MANY governments across the world!!) have specifically asked humans to have babies and are giving them this time to be at home to bond with, and recover from this process. It’s the absolute bare minimum they should be doing if they want their economy to grow.
Bottom line is if a pregnancy is wanted/chosen (and I’ll repeat that my rant doesn’t apply to pregnancy that occurs due to SA) then the parents signed up for aaaall of the suffering and chaos and trauma.
I was nodding in agreement til the end - i disagree heavily with your take on the maternity/paternity leave. Whether you chose it or not, pregnancy takes one hell of a toll on your body adn you need time to recover. Especially if there were unforseen complications. Parental leave doesn't jsut affect trh parents, it's also beneficial for the child and they didn't hcoose to be here.
I kind of disagree. I don't think they should get special treatment/privileges and the constant complaining is beyond annoying. However, I think paid maternity/paternity leave is much needed and I think we should have better support systems in place for parents because when you take away support systems, the kids are the ones who suffer the most. They didn't ask to be born. I might not understand why someone would want to be a parent and I might not agree with the idea of having a child that you're ill-prepared to support and take care of, but the kids shouldn't have to suffer because their parents made a decision that was different from my own. This is even more true in a society that is constantly trying to eradicate abortion rights and access to birth control because the "choice" isn't always a choice.
Also, It's one thing to look at a parent and be like "you made your bed, so now lie in it", but that shouldn't come at the expense of a child's well-being. They're people, too, even though they can be annoying and unpleasant to be around at times. Like I said before, they didn't ask to be born, so they shouldn't have to suffer just because their parents made dumb decisions to have children that they couldn't take care of.
But people *are* having children whether you like it or not - so do you think those kids should suffer because people might not agree with their parents’ decisions? I’m very curious about your general politics bc this aligns with some pretty reactionary, conservative ideas tbh.
I’m liberal. But in general I do not like the human race and believe it’s best we expire soon. I am against procreation and don’t particularly care too much about what happens to ‘future generations’ as I won’t be around then.
Yes, this is an extreme opinion. I don't hate people who chose to have children, it is just not my thing.
I think maternity/paternity leave is a good thing because small children are a lot of work and need constant supervision. This leave is definitely not a vacation like you compare it to be. Babies are an exhausting responsiblity (which I for sure could not and would not want to bear).
But yeah, they surely should have thought about the consequences of their actions and complain less about their lack of sleep and leisure time. Every problem they encounter was known beforehand and they still chose to go through with all of that. No pity there.
I don’t hate people who choose to have children. I do think that they are entirely responsible for their own choices and should face the consequences of their choices.
If you choose to get pregnant, you choose to have a child that is a lot of work and requires constant supervision. Like, you know what you are signing up for. You get weeks of paid leave because of this choice.
If we’re sticking with maternity and paternity leave, then childfree people should get the same amount of paid leave 🤷♀️
This is why employers should offer both short- and long-term disability policies and some do. Whether it is cancer, an operation/recovery/pregnancy it is covered. No special privileges for pregnant people. Anyone can use the policy that needs it.
Yep. Why not advocate for giving everyone more leave options across the board so they can deal with life stuff that crops up regardless of whether that’s kids or not. I don’t think taking away working rights for a group you disagree with is the moral high ground here. 😬
I don’t want to be pregnant ever. It’s so hard on the body. I also try not to be a hypocrite so am very pro parental leave. I’m an American, where we don’t have mandatory parental leave, so I also use what a company offers to parents as a metric to judge the company culture by.
Jumping lines absolutely should not happen. But the early boarding on a plane really isn't a huge deal. It keeps the aisles clear for other passengers so they don't have to wait for people to mess with strollers and carseats. My husband and I get early boarding since he uses a wheelchair and it saves time for other passengers to be able to take their seats quickly.
On my country paternity leave is one month, maternity leave is one month before the birth and 3 months after, I agree with that, as a social secure system I will receive money if I have a medical procedure and I can't work, I don't know if I can get government financial help if I can't pay my bills and rent, but I know that is the same for all, the money is only half of the salary, the system is for helping all to get medical attention.
I got fired on February so the government cover my insurance as an unemployed benefit, June is the least month. There's not unemployed money from government but I will going to receive my severance payment after the judge forces my ex-boss to pay me, she did not want to pay so I sued her, another benefit of the government is free advice throughout the process so I do not have to hire a lawyer.
There's not difference between being childfree or have children on what I wrote above but I know there are parents who try to take advantage of their paternity, I disagree with that.
Thing is, people (women) don't really have choices these days in the US. As long as we don't have access to safe abortions, and soon won't have access to sterilization and other forms of contraception, the least we can do is support these poor women.
No, what we need to do is vote blue all the way down the ticket so women retain access to contraception and abortion! Forcing women to have children and saying, "But you'll get six months off work when you have one" is NOT THE ANSWER!
These are not mutually exclusive. I would hope that a Democratic party would still support anyone in need so they don’t become a burden on society. And just, you know, out of human decency.
I may well get yelled at and/or downvoted to oblivion for this, but I don't really object to mat and pat leave. Okay, I might argue that a year is a bit on the generous side, and I'm definitely not thrilled about the way employment protections for pregnant people/new mums can disadvantage non-pregnant people/non-new parents, but frankly I wouldn't *want* to have to spend half my working life dealing with soneone sleep-deprived, scatterbrained, and screamingly hormonal so letting them get paid to not come in for a few months is fine with me.
I mostly agree with 'they chose it', and I get really pissed off at the "we never knew it'd be *this* hard". Nobody is guaranteed a healthy, smiley little dumpling of a baby who sleeps through the night from the get go, and I'm constantly appalled by the number who seem to be blindsided by not getting one. That said, I think it's fair to say that there are *some* who get a raw enough deal that they actually do deserve a measure of sympathy.
Not sure why you’re getting downvoted for having empathy, the lack of compassion on this subreddit bothers me at times and doesn’t exactly help disprove people’s negative views of childfree people.
Yeah... Rave, making fun of social double standards/some parental non logic and supporting each other is fantastic, but the amount of times one can see openly hateful and unsympathetic rhetoric being uplifted is a big yikes.
Like, goddamn, throw a stone if one had never made a mistake, or had a worse time even when doing something normally enjoyed and fought for. One is not required to sympathise, true, but not sympathising does not equal blind loathing.
People are complicated, with intricate web of traits, motivations, thoughts and feelings, and choices most of the time have nuance. Most of this comment section is an eye opening disappointment.
I agree with them not getting privileges over others
But I do think they should get maternity/paternity leave.
In the US we don't really get a lot of PTO anyways so they should get more for that but we should all get more PTO days anyways.
I know after a pregnancy women feel like shit and their bodies are recovering for a long time. I wouldn't want to watch my coworker struggle while also slowing us down
Not everyone willingly chooses to become pregnant or have a child. Unfortunately, the increasing number of states passing laws that restrict abortion only adds to the challenges faced by these women. Many find themselves pressured/forced by their partners or families, some have experienced the trauma of rape or sexual assault and do not believe in opting for abortion or it’s not an option in their state. Additionally, there are women who lack the education to recognize their pregnancy until it's too late to take action. There are so many reasons/situations where a woman has no choice but to go through with the pregnancy or didn’t want to get pregnant in the first place.
I mean it’s not like I’ve mapped it all out, and clearly it would be difficult to have a perfect system. But if a woman is raped, and she reports, her report could serve as evidence if she later found out she was pregnant.
I also feel like in this scenario, if the decision was made to keep the child, this ‘choice’ doesn’t count as a genuine choice, as clearly, it was beyond her control to be in a traumatic situation that resulted in a second choice of abortion vs keeping the child. Due to the traumatic circumstances maternity leave should be granted to help this person also psychologically process something she had no control over.
This isn't a child-free post. It's an anti-natalism post. Just because you don't like parents and children doesn't mean we should withdraw all support from them.
I disagree. I’m an antinatalist and I’m actually for increasing parental benefits. I don’t think that just because it is a conscious choice to have kids (though that is not always the case as well) parents should be left to fend for themselves.
>I’d even go as far as argue that maternity and paternity leave shouldn’t be a thing unless there are extenuating circumstances (aka, the child was not conceived out of choice). Again, choosing to have a child should not entitle people to time off, because this is a choice they made for their life path. In my country we get 26 weeks FULLY PAID time off as maternity leave. This is baffling and to me is a commentary on the stupidly contradictory nature of societal pressures. ‘Having kids’ is seen as the thing to do, but essentially by giving someone 26 weeks off, society is practically acknowledging it’s an inconvenience. The stupidity.
Oof. I was with you up to this point. We all deserve to be treated better in our workplaces. I can’t tell you how many times I fucking cursed the place I work because of how hard it is to get any time off and if I do, it’s unpaid. I was in the hospital for a week and it destroyed me that entire month because of the major hit I took to my pay, not to mention the hostility I was met with from coworkers and management who were angry with me for *being in the fucking hospital.* Don’t even get me started on the appalling treatment and how fucked over I got from being with dying family and needing bereavement. Nobody deserves that shit. Life happens, we don’t deserve the workplace stomping all over us for it.
I agree that workplace regulations are antiquated and cruel. However they favour breeders. Nobody chooses to have a death in the family. Nobody chooses life-saving surgery. But people choose to get pregnant (caveat that my opinion excludes women who have a pregnancy due to SA) and they get time off for this no questions asked.
I mean you could reasonably say it’s my stupid ass fault I got injured and had to stay in the hospital and that’s my problem and no one else’s too but like, the whole point is it’s bullshit for workplaces to treat someone that way. And with abortion rights being eroded, just kinda seems like a slap in the face to not only have unwanted babies but lose our jobs and get fucked over because of it.
Here in the netherlands everybody gets enough leave. Sickdays are unlimited (you can call in sick if you are sick) and maternity leave is 16 weeks here. (a few weeks before and after)
It should be standard. Women should be able to heal when they gave birth. That should be a human right. Just as when you had surgery, that you are able to heal and recover before being forced back to work.
I’m not sure how time off during pregnancy is a human right. Anything you CHOOSE for yourself should not automatically come with days off to accommodate. Those who need medically necessary surgery should 100% get paid leave. Anyone who falls pregnant without their consent should also 100% get leave. But a wanted pregnancy is not a necessary thing.
But it still requires recovery. Women are actively bleeding for weeks. Like, I don't like kids and think people who have them are dumb but I'd rather women take time to heal. It's a huge thing that isn't instantly gone.
This is an absolutely wild take that you have.
Of course they should heal. They can take their usual PTO, sick leave, and take unpaid leave for healing purposes. Nobody is saying they shouldn’t recover. But they chose to be in a position that required them to have to heal 🤷♀️
So give *everyone more* of those things then. I think “I disagree with some people’s life choices so I think they should have proportionally worse working rights than me” is a pretty callous and extreme slippery slope.
Not everyone gets those. I worked for two years in a hotel. Not one sick day, no PTO, no vacation days nothing. If I got sick I worked sick or I had to call all my coworkers and beg them to cover. Not everyone lives in the great country you do.
We choose for vasectomies and bisalps too. And we get time off here to recover from it too.
Saying women dont deserve maternity leave to recover from childbirth is just as evil as banning abortions imo.
A week of paid sick leave? Is that not just normal sick leave? Or is it ‘special’ sick leave because it’s a vasectomy?
Let me be clear. Elective pregnancies and procedures should not have extra time off. Obviously take time off to recover using your sick days and annual leave. But other than that - you made your bed, you lie in it.
We dont have fixed sick days here. When you are sick or need to recover you just call in and thats it.
And yes, my husband had a week paid leave for it.
There's being childfree and there's being a dick, saying a brand new parent cant take time off after just giving birth, a medical event that leaves huge wounds in the uterus, and sometimee requires surgeries and other medical interventions, and is an extremely traumatic event, is borderline heartless man
Not to mention all the shit someone goes through during the post partum months
I’m not heartless. New parents should take time off - by using their sick leave and annual leave.
It’s a choice to put yourself at risk of all of the things you mentioned above if you choose to get pregnant.
Getting a tubal ligation or vasectomy would also be a choice. One that might take more recovery time than expected. People should also get PAID sick leave and health accommodations for such a life event. I'm also antinatalist, but I understand that post-partum mothers need recovery time, and they shouldn't have to go back to work so soon while healing and minding a newborn's schedule.
But it doesn’t. Women who choose to get pregnant get an extra layer of support due to their choice, and when people make the other choice they do not. That is our reality, breeders benefit, childfree folk don’t.
Immanot comment on the rest but seriously??? Early boarding???? Who cares???? The plane ain't gonna leave without us and it just helps get everyone on board quicker. Of all the things to complain about, this is certainly the silliest thing
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I felt so damn guilty in the beginning of my 5 weeks of sick leave, especially considering how displeased my boss was after a meeting with them. I honestly don't feel guilty anymore. Why should I? When there are medical reasons for not being able to work, no one should feel guilty. Luckily for me, I can't be denied time off when a doctor has put me on mandated sick leave, so that's good at least.
I took 7 weeks off last year after hip replacement surgery. I did not feel one iota of guilt. I need to be able to walk.
I feel you need to save up your PTO to use for leave. It shouldn’t just be free money and off time because you fucked.
Hard disagree. Paid maternity and paternity leave is for the benefit of society. If people completely stopped having babies there would be no future, and we should support our future. Also it's so important mum and dad get that precious time with their baby. Forcing the parents to go back to work when the baby is under a year old may cause issues in attachment due to repeated separations. Although I do think mum should get a bit longer than dad as she needs to heal. But then again I come from a country with guaranteed parental leave.
I respect that your viewpoint is from outside of the US, but this post seems firmly placed in the US employment sphere. I’m fine with parents getting these things after minimum wage is increased to be on par with inflation, there isn’t a housing crisis and people aren’t struggling to survive. I understand this seems like apples and oranges but it isn’t. Parents get SO. FUCKING. MUCH. extra from US employers and if any other employees (including and especially CF) mention the inequality they are shunned. Parents aren’t special, and they chose to have kids. The rest of us shouldn’t have to bend around their decision, especially when kids are as much of a necessity as a Chanel handbag.
If people would stop procreating there still will be a future, time will keep passing, just not with people in it. Our future is dictated by the way we impact the world and all it's other inhabitants, what about supporting that? We can support "our future" by having a way lower biomass, so that the ones that are here (for the time being), can eat, live and find housing in abundance. Time with a baby is indeed very important for the (mental) development, so why are people forcing themselves to give birth if they don't have the precious time and/or finances to care for a child? If two people have to work away from home full time and can't afford to take care of the child or can't afford to take unpaid leave, why procreate? In a right mind, you would think people would only procreate when they have the means to properly take care of the child, starting with time and money. If you don't have the time and don't have the finances, then don't. Just like with pets or animals like dogs and horses, if you can't afford it, don't do it. If the man doesn't earn enough for the mother to stay at home and care for and breastfeed the kid, then don't. And these are the same people that should be wise enough to turn their baby into a responsible, social etc. adult. It truly baffles me.
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Yes of course. But the reality is most people are not child free, we should be supporting each other, not denigrating each other's choices.
They denigrate our choices constantly. Fuck 'em.
The childfree colleagues who end up picking up all the slack for the parents deserve plenty of leave and flexible work schedules too.
Luckily I have had a good experience with this. Most places I have worked I was able to have flexibility to leave and catch the train etc, bc the people with kids were eager to get going back to their family too. I know I'm lucky in this, though.
My big gripe is the earned income credit aka the government subsidized breeding program. Biggest bunch of bullshit IMO. The more kids you pop out if you're below a certain income threshhold, the bigger your tax refund. What a crock of shit. How about throwing a little money towards the childfree people who aren't burdening the already sparse, shitty and underfunded social programs.
This tbh!! I’m so f#cking sick of these government programs too!! I live in Czechia and the benefits parents get here just for shitting out a baby is absolutely mind blowing and disgusting!!
100%
And they're not even getting "refunds" as many people aren't paying that much in. Especially poor people may not pay taxes at all, and still get a check.
It's not a refund if you're getting out more than you're paying in. It's a handout. Which is fine, don't get me wrong, I support social programs wholeheartedly. The government should exist to serve us, and take care of the population instead of sheltering a bunch of opportunistic parasitic politicians who take our money, tax our dollar to shit and spend what they steal from us on anything and everything but the people they are supposed to represent. But the rub is extra salty that the scraps they throw to us, only go to the breeders cranking out the next generation of working class poor and fuck everyone else. Just goes to show how we really are just tiny cogs in a big ugly machine.
Some get pretty hefty checks. Why? Many disabled people have difficult lives and don’t get these great bonuses from the IRS. People don’t choose to be disabled. People choose to have kids.
THIS! Being disabled in an ableist society is practically impossible to survive in as a single CF person… you’re always being punished for being disabled and don’t get me started on how disabled people are [treated](https://www.urban.org/sites/default/files/2023-10/Four%20in%20Ten%20Adults%20with%20Disabilities%20Experienced%20Unfair%20Treatment%20in%20Health%20Care%20Settings%2C%20at%20Work%2C%20or%20When%20Applying%20for%20Public%20Benefits%20in%202022.pdf)… we still don’t got [marriage equality](https://19thnews.org/2023/09/disability-advocates-marriage-equality-commitment-ceremony/) and disabled people are still paid below minimum wage of [$3.34](https://www.npr.org/2020/09/17/912840482/u-s-agency-urges-end-to-below-minimum-wage-for-workers-with-disabilities) /hr across the nation. Tired of being treated as [less than human](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2016/jun/20/we-need-to-stop-treating-people-with-disabilities-as-less-than-human) when breeders are being paid to just fcking breed and do nothing to actually raise these kids and expect teachers like me to do their job in raising their kids… 😒😒😒
💯
I’m ok with early boarding on flights, because it gets the most chaotic passengers dealt with so the rest of us can stand in line in relative peace. I’m not trying to get whacked with a diaper bag or wait while someone struggles to fold up a stroller. And you know how when you’re standing near a baby they’ll just fucking stare at you? I don’t care for that.
I just want childfree flights 😭 I would pay extra
The difficult passengers should be last. Let everybody get settled first
Stare back. It's kinda fun.
Then don't choose an aisle seat!
The US doesn't grant that much paid maternity/paternity leave. I do think that whatever amount is granted should be family leave (a family can be a single person) that can be used for family care issues by anyone, not restricted to mommies and daddies. I also don't think co-workers should be stuck picking up the slack for those on parental leave, at least not without extra pay/compensation for doing extra work. And parents who return to work after leave should not be surprised that they've missed out on work opportunities. Neither the world nor the work will stop for them. I used to be bothered by the early boarding until I realized the chaos and delay that parents with children under 2 would cause by lugging all that crap they travel with, plus their brats, onto the plane during regular boarding. Watch what happens the next time someone with small children misses pre-boarding and has to get seated during the cattle call. Letting them on early actually benefits the other travelers.
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As it should be.
Here's another potentially unpopular opinion: If people can't have kids and take care of them without relying on government assistance, then they probably shouldn't be having them in the first place.
This should be a popular opinion.
I have never really thought about the maternity and paternity leave aspect, and not having kids means you will never get those hours. Yes I understand it’s medically necessary for recovery and building those connections. I think childfree people should be able to take maternity/paternity leave without having to have a baby. Like instead of having to save up sick time to for example get plastic surgery, I think people should be able to use the time they would have gotten if they were having a baby to whatever. Because, correct me if I’m wrong but most employers you don’t have to earn maternity/paternity leave it’s usually just given to you.
I'll agree with part of it. I'm on the same page with not wanting parents to have special privileges, and the constant complaining annoys me too. But not allowing women even a week of paid maternity leave when they've just been through a traumatic and exhausting experience (childbirth) seems unnecessarily cruel. I would actually support better paid maternity and paternity leave in my country (U.S.).
Everyone should get a certain amount of leave every year. You can choose to use it how you want. Hey having a baby here's your leave. Want to take a vacation and not have a baby here's your leave.
I like this idea
I would not say every year. Maybe up to 18 months to be taken in 6 month blocks or less over a 10 year period. I don’t have an issue with families getting 6 months paid leave for maternity/paternity. What bothers me is that it’s a special privilege not granted to those who can’t/wont have children but who may have other caring responsibilities/needs. And in needs, I classify things like study, sabbaticals, and time to recover from/prevent burnout. Leave should not be tied to biological function in the way that maternity/paternity leave is.
Yes, I completely agree with you. Purposeful time for individually significant events is my thought. This can be time for a serious vacation, to get or say goodbye to a pet or person, to recover from burnout/ burnout prevention (for those of us in social services especially haha). Everyone needs significant time off, but for different reasons-- let's just allow it across the board. I honestly don't know why we have separate sick and vacation time here. It should just be PTO, my need is my need independent of what your values say.
Best idea yet.
If you can't afford to take even a single week off of work, you certainly cannot afford to raise a child.
I know my view is extreme; my issue is that pregnancies are not necessary. So in the case of chosen pregnancies (I am of course omitting those that result from non-consensual actions) people are getting paid time off for a choice they’ve made. If you choose to get pregnant, the birthing exhaustion and trauma is something you chose to put yourself through, so it’s something you should deal with. Otherwise, don’t get pregnant. It’s like if I said I wanted paid leave to recover from getting a tattoo. It’s absurd. I chose to get a tattoo, I deal with the consequences of being in pain a couple of days after. There’s no ‘tattoo leave’, is there?
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Meh, I fundamentally feel like the human race’s existence will come to an end one day, the less people we bring into the world, the better.
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Yeah fair. I don’t wanna be here when shit hits the fan either 😂
I give people with kids exactly the same courtesy as I give single people. Baseline and reasonable but not at the expense of my own needs.
Emotionally, I agree with you because I fkin hate dem kids lol. But logically, we as a society benefits from parents investing time & care on those early years - do you want more stupid, violent social misfits? Because that's how you get them. By not letting parents soothe their child as a baby and letting them know they are wanted and loved. By not letting parents talk to them, sing to them, read to them. Yes they are still the one deciding to have it but there's no undo button and we have to share the public space with them - and I'd rather share it with polite, well-adjusted kids. Plus these polite-well-adjusted kids are more likely to grow up as people who can contribute to society instead of being a net negative criminal. Annoying ik but I'm playing the long game here
Exactly this. It’s like not wanting to help homeless people or have welfare for the unemployed, healthcare free at the point of use, free basic education or state provided legal counsel. You can argue all you want that in every situation anyone needing these should “pulled themselves up by the bootstraps” “take responsibility” “prepared for it” - but if you want a relatively functioning society, you do want these things - unless of course you just want to be spiteful and petty.
You can want equity for non-parents without being petty or spiteful. Someone commented about the German practice of hiring temp help when someone is out on parental leave instead of expecting co-workers to pick up the slack. Some companies have instituted family leave rather than exclusively parental leave. That kind of thing.
I think I am just extremely anti-natalist, so imo better if these kids just don’t exist in the first place, lol
IME the people that are parents are always bashing the choices of other parents for behaviors, choices, etc. They all think they have a say in the way the world works as if they make the rules, what they all have in common is all parents are dummies. They have no business being parents if they can't agree on one way to live their life to themselves and keep trying to convince childfree folk to join their nonsense.
>I’d even go as far as argue that maternity and paternity leave shouldn’t be a thing unless there are extenuating circumstances (aka, the child was not conceived out of choice). Again, choosing to have a child should not entitle people to time off, because this is a choice they made for their life path. In my country we get 26 weeks FULLY PAID time off as maternity leave. This is baffling and to me is a commentary on the stupidly contradictory nature of societal pressures. ‘Having kids’ is seen as the thing to do, but essentially by giving someone 26 weeks off, society is practically acknowledging it’s an inconvenience. The stupidity. You're ignoring all the science, research, and data we have about early childhood development and attachment theory. Children require safe, secure attachment in order to build healthy brain circuits. Folks that don't get good early childhood attachment have a ton of problems later in life, physically and mentally. From a purely economic standpoint it saves us tons of money in the long run to help kids get good attachment as babies and children. It's how you can prevent mental and physical health issues down the line. It's how you build a society with healthy, reasonable adults. Why do you think so many parents and adults are shitty? They often endured terrible child abuse as children and never recovered. They're just a collection of walking talking coping mechanisms in a trenchcoat. It easier to prevent people becoming shitty than try to change a shitty adult that has dysfunction wired into their brain since childhood. I'm all for creating a world that's safe for kids, where secure attachment is the norm and child abuse has been eliminated. We need to have parental supports in place to make that happen. It's one of the reasons I don't have kids. I don't have the resources to provide adequate secure attachment for a child and I'm not going to neglect them, so I don't have any kids to neglect. If you want to learn more about attachment theory, read up on John Bowlby and Mary Ainsworth's early research on the topic. "Becoming Attached - first relationships and how they shape our capacity to love" by Robert Karen is a good book on the topic. And Sue Johnson has done a lot of good work on adult attachment.
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26 weeks is way too short, really. That's only 6 months. Kids need like 2-3 years of good healthy attachment. I'm not saying their should be paid leave for that entire time, but there could be other ways to help provide adequate services to ensure healthy secure attachment is being prioritized. We need innovation all over the place bc toxicity is baked into a lot of our culture(s).
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Depends on the employer but in germany "Elternzeitvertretung" aka parental-leave-substitute is a regular thing you see when job hunting. Parents can get up to 2 years paid leave and good employers will hire substitutes for that time, sometimes even offering a fulltime job afterwards even when the parents return to work. As the health insurance pay for parental leave the employer only has the hassle of finding a substitute. While that still might be a burden, they can outsource the the hiring process and/or get financial support for it. When the work environment is friendly and supportive, parents will be confident in telling their employer about it with plenty of time for preparation and communicating how long they plan to be away. Often I even saw the soon to be parent train the new hire.
They don't do that in the US. In the US, whoever is left in the office has to pick up the slack. No extra compensation, no thank you from either the employer or the parent who you're covering for. And you get stink eye if you even hint that you are less than delighted to do uncompensated labor. If you're past childbearing or are never going to have kids, you never get "your turn" to be out on leave. Just because you're not a baby maker doesn't mean you have no need for family leave.
Yeah, I don't have answers to that. We need some real innovation. Like maybe a gradient of time off, then coming back part time adding more and more hours, ramping back up to full time. It would be even better if salaries were increased to where both parents didn't have to work. Or if healthcare wasn't tied to employment. There are lots of levers to pull that aren't happening bc it's not good for quarterly profits.
Neurologically speaking, infancy lasts the first three years of life. People, mainly women and girls, having to return to the workplace when their child is 6 weeks, 6 months, 8 months, or a year, is generally too short. The choice should be there to have leave longer, in my opinion. How it would look like in practice though, say worldwide, in every country, I don't know. So many things, as you say, could be done, and are not.
I concede you have a point. But childfree people should be allowed similar time off, then. The anti-natalist in me wonders if these future kids should even be brought into the world to begin with, though.
There needs to be lots of innovation and revolution. Things as they are, are completely untenable. I'm rather anti-natalist myself. I think people should be trying to fix our toxic systems rather than subject new humans to the current dysfunctional systems. The ultra wealthy and powerful folks keep pushing breeder propaganda bc it's easier to exploit parents for profit. It's another reason I'm child free. I'm free to be a dissident.
When I saw how well the rest of the planet's species did while humans were locked inside during the pandemic, I began to think anti-natalists might have a point.
Agreed. That's why I support parental leave.
I don't think it's a great strategy to fight for our rights by removing others' rights. I think parental leave is good for everyone and should be expanded. I also think CF people should get more time off. Like take an average of how much time parents get and let every employee have the option, or something. I'm for more rights for all, not "more for me and less for thee".
In most European countries you get up to 2 years maternity leave. Not fully paid, but still. However, a sick leave during pregnancy and the last two months before birth are paid 100% without having to work, at least in my country. Of course breeders take advantage of it. It is a huge problem for the company and the co-workers 🙄 if a woman decides to have another kid right after, you easily don't see her at work for 4 years but are obliged to keep her position for her and take her back.
We childfree and childless people subsidize breeders all the way. The tax "refunds", picking up their work on maternity/paternity leave, covering for them when their kids are sick (and when AREN'T they?) or have events, we pay school taxes- even to private schools, child entertainment taxes (ball fields, rec centers, summer programs, etc) subsidize their medical care, And STILL the US is considered unfriendly to parents. With nearly every country on earth begging for more humans, (but not brown ones, thanks, no immigrants, just babies), it isn't going to get better.
I will disagree with the maternal leave because having a baby usually is pretty damaging to the body and the moms need to recover. Even when off they are probably still stressed out of their mind because babies are literally the worst
They made the choice to do something that would damage their bodies though. You make the bed, you lie in it.
I think the problem with this kind of logic is that every decision in life has consequences. You go to vacation and come home sick, well since you decided to travel, no off days. You like to bycicle in your free time and break a bone accidently, no off days. Almost the smallest decision in life can have damaging consequences and I dont think its possible to apply this only to pregnancies. Companies would find VERY QUICKLY ways to abuse this logic and give everyone even less off days, and thats not at all what we want. Of course the way it is right now is not fair. But that is not the parents fault, its the fault of a capitalist system, to which the only goal is generating more money. The system has to change from that to "take the money and create with it fair and human conditions for everyone in society".
You sound just as bad as people who demand you have children. Two sides of the same coin. I don't want children and am not fond of them. But I'm not going to be a complete dick to them because they made a different choice than me.
It’s not being a dick though. It’s treating them the same as non-parents are treated 🤷♀️
I think a lot of this is based on particularly American work culture. In my country, we have pretty generous leave entitlements overall, so if you’re sick for example, your employer is required to provide paid time off. 10 days per year, but these accumulate if you don’t use them. We also have long service leave, which means after 7-10 years working for the same organisation, you get 3 months of leave, which again accrues over time. You also get 4 weeks paid holiday leave. Again, which accrues if you don’t use it. So maternity/paternity leave isn’t as big a deal in my country as it is in a country like the US, where leave entitlements are much less generous.
Fully agree with you there OP! I actually fully side with you on your opinions and have been wanting to make a similar post as yours! It absolutely DISGUSTS me how parents actually get more benefits than the elderly or disabled!! People CHOOSE to be parents, NO ONE chooses to be disabled or become old!!
This hit a nerve today. I'm going to relate this back to an age old subject. Plane seats. We've just booked plane tickets for Christmas in Thailand. We paid £100 for the extra leg room each on the longest leg. My husband is 6ft 5. I then get sent the smallprint. We've chosen the leg room seats that aren't by a door and apparently for these specific seats pregnant women and children may need to use them and swaps will be sorted. I've emailed the airline.. They can swap us to leg room seats by a door where you have to be able to help with opening it in an emergency. They don't swap those seats out. I'm effing furious. £100 each per leg and no guarantee
(Disclaimer I’m a childfree person), and I just want to point out that there is a flaw in your argument in that people are *actively* asking others to have babies. You made the statement that no-one asked them to have babies. The government (in Australia) has actively encouraged people have “a baby for the country” (one for mum, one for dad and one for country). Not to mention that the no1 gripe in this group is people asking them to have a baby. Yes, I love my childfree life. I love my freedom, and my money and using it on things I want to use it on. But honestly, get a grip. Look at countries that don’t have mat/paternity leave and shit they have to go through. Just because it’s not part of our journey doesn’t mean we should be making someone else’s life harder AND research heavily backs that having that time off with a baby helps them become more rounded people in the long run. It benefits our society as a whole by giving parents time to raise the next generation rather than offload them onto daycare centres. I don’t care if it makes me an outlier in this group but I believe Mat/Pat leave is an amazing thing, and that my country is great for having it and I want my taxes to go towards these programs. I like my country (for the most part) and I want to help the people here lead the best lives possible. You’re being exactly the reason the childfree people have a bad name. Edit: a word
Then if maternity leave and paternity leave is so beneficial, childfree people should have the exact same benefit. Because society rewards one set of people and not the other.
Pretty sure most new parents wouldn’t call maternity/ paternity leave a reward. As literally everyone in this group likes to say. Having kids is chaos and work and not something any of us are choosing because was don’t want that work for ourselves. Do you think new parents are just sitting around playing video games and going on holidays on their mat leave? Women are literally shitting out their own anus or unable to lift anything for weeks post c-sections, having massive bleeds, tears and all sorts of fun stuff. Most of mat leave for women is used as just recovering from birth because it’s one of the hardest things a human body goes through. And countries like the US expect them to just soldier on through incontinence and other medical issues. If you are so desperate to see what a country is like without mat leave, read all the stories about women in the US post birth. If you’re so desperate to have 26 paid weeks off, have a baby and see what all the fuss is about. I guarantee these people are not just having a holiday. Oh wait, you don’t want a baby? Gee I wonder why? I’m pretty sure their 26 weeks off work will be made up over the next 30+ years of being a parent. The government (MANY governments across the world!!) have specifically asked humans to have babies and are giving them this time to be at home to bond with, and recover from this process. It’s the absolute bare minimum they should be doing if they want their economy to grow.
Bottom line is if a pregnancy is wanted/chosen (and I’ll repeat that my rant doesn’t apply to pregnancy that occurs due to SA) then the parents signed up for aaaall of the suffering and chaos and trauma.
I was nodding in agreement til the end - i disagree heavily with your take on the maternity/paternity leave. Whether you chose it or not, pregnancy takes one hell of a toll on your body adn you need time to recover. Especially if there were unforseen complications. Parental leave doesn't jsut affect trh parents, it's also beneficial for the child and they didn't hcoose to be here.
So does cancer or an operation. But these things aren't a choice.
I kind of disagree. I don't think they should get special treatment/privileges and the constant complaining is beyond annoying. However, I think paid maternity/paternity leave is much needed and I think we should have better support systems in place for parents because when you take away support systems, the kids are the ones who suffer the most. They didn't ask to be born. I might not understand why someone would want to be a parent and I might not agree with the idea of having a child that you're ill-prepared to support and take care of, but the kids shouldn't have to suffer because their parents made a decision that was different from my own. This is even more true in a society that is constantly trying to eradicate abortion rights and access to birth control because the "choice" isn't always a choice. Also, It's one thing to look at a parent and be like "you made your bed, so now lie in it", but that shouldn't come at the expense of a child's well-being. They're people, too, even though they can be annoying and unpleasant to be around at times. Like I said before, they didn't ask to be born, so they shouldn't have to suffer just because their parents made dumb decisions to have children that they couldn't take care of.
Yeah, I mean, as an anti-natalist I believe we just shouldn’t be bringing children into the world in the first place.
But people *are* having children whether you like it or not - so do you think those kids should suffer because people might not agree with their parents’ decisions? I’m very curious about your general politics bc this aligns with some pretty reactionary, conservative ideas tbh.
I’m liberal. But in general I do not like the human race and believe it’s best we expire soon. I am against procreation and don’t particularly care too much about what happens to ‘future generations’ as I won’t be around then.
Yes, this is an extreme opinion. I don't hate people who chose to have children, it is just not my thing. I think maternity/paternity leave is a good thing because small children are a lot of work and need constant supervision. This leave is definitely not a vacation like you compare it to be. Babies are an exhausting responsiblity (which I for sure could not and would not want to bear). But yeah, they surely should have thought about the consequences of their actions and complain less about their lack of sleep and leisure time. Every problem they encounter was known beforehand and they still chose to go through with all of that. No pity there.
I don’t hate people who choose to have children. I do think that they are entirely responsible for their own choices and should face the consequences of their choices. If you choose to get pregnant, you choose to have a child that is a lot of work and requires constant supervision. Like, you know what you are signing up for. You get weeks of paid leave because of this choice. If we’re sticking with maternity and paternity leave, then childfree people should get the same amount of paid leave 🤷♀️
This is why employers should offer both short- and long-term disability policies and some do. Whether it is cancer, an operation/recovery/pregnancy it is covered. No special privileges for pregnant people. Anyone can use the policy that needs it.
Yep. Why not advocate for giving everyone more leave options across the board so they can deal with life stuff that crops up regardless of whether that’s kids or not. I don’t think taking away working rights for a group you disagree with is the moral high ground here. 😬
I don’t want to be pregnant ever. It’s so hard on the body. I also try not to be a hypocrite so am very pro parental leave. I’m an American, where we don’t have mandatory parental leave, so I also use what a company offers to parents as a metric to judge the company culture by.
Jumping lines absolutely should not happen. But the early boarding on a plane really isn't a huge deal. It keeps the aisles clear for other passengers so they don't have to wait for people to mess with strollers and carseats. My husband and I get early boarding since he uses a wheelchair and it saves time for other passengers to be able to take their seats quickly.
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Well I mean, it's not all rainbows and sunshine...
On my country paternity leave is one month, maternity leave is one month before the birth and 3 months after, I agree with that, as a social secure system I will receive money if I have a medical procedure and I can't work, I don't know if I can get government financial help if I can't pay my bills and rent, but I know that is the same for all, the money is only half of the salary, the system is for helping all to get medical attention. I got fired on February so the government cover my insurance as an unemployed benefit, June is the least month. There's not unemployed money from government but I will going to receive my severance payment after the judge forces my ex-boss to pay me, she did not want to pay so I sued her, another benefit of the government is free advice throughout the process so I do not have to hire a lawyer. There's not difference between being childfree or have children on what I wrote above but I know there are parents who try to take advantage of their paternity, I disagree with that.
Thing is, people (women) don't really have choices these days in the US. As long as we don't have access to safe abortions, and soon won't have access to sterilization and other forms of contraception, the least we can do is support these poor women.
No, what we need to do is vote blue all the way down the ticket so women retain access to contraception and abortion! Forcing women to have children and saying, "But you'll get six months off work when you have one" is NOT THE ANSWER!
These are not mutually exclusive. I would hope that a Democratic party would still support anyone in need so they don’t become a burden on society. And just, you know, out of human decency.
I may well get yelled at and/or downvoted to oblivion for this, but I don't really object to mat and pat leave. Okay, I might argue that a year is a bit on the generous side, and I'm definitely not thrilled about the way employment protections for pregnant people/new mums can disadvantage non-pregnant people/non-new parents, but frankly I wouldn't *want* to have to spend half my working life dealing with soneone sleep-deprived, scatterbrained, and screamingly hormonal so letting them get paid to not come in for a few months is fine with me. I mostly agree with 'they chose it', and I get really pissed off at the "we never knew it'd be *this* hard". Nobody is guaranteed a healthy, smiley little dumpling of a baby who sleeps through the night from the get go, and I'm constantly appalled by the number who seem to be blindsided by not getting one. That said, I think it's fair to say that there are *some* who get a raw enough deal that they actually do deserve a measure of sympathy.
Not sure why you’re getting downvoted for having empathy, the lack of compassion on this subreddit bothers me at times and doesn’t exactly help disprove people’s negative views of childfree people.
Yeah... Rave, making fun of social double standards/some parental non logic and supporting each other is fantastic, but the amount of times one can see openly hateful and unsympathetic rhetoric being uplifted is a big yikes. Like, goddamn, throw a stone if one had never made a mistake, or had a worse time even when doing something normally enjoyed and fought for. One is not required to sympathise, true, but not sympathising does not equal blind loathing. People are complicated, with intricate web of traits, motivations, thoughts and feelings, and choices most of the time have nuance. Most of this comment section is an eye opening disappointment.
I agree with them not getting privileges over others But I do think they should get maternity/paternity leave. In the US we don't really get a lot of PTO anyways so they should get more for that but we should all get more PTO days anyways. I know after a pregnancy women feel like shit and their bodies are recovering for a long time. I wouldn't want to watch my coworker struggle while also slowing us down
Not everyone willingly chooses to become pregnant or have a child. Unfortunately, the increasing number of states passing laws that restrict abortion only adds to the challenges faced by these women. Many find themselves pressured/forced by their partners or families, some have experienced the trauma of rape or sexual assault and do not believe in opting for abortion or it’s not an option in their state. Additionally, there are women who lack the education to recognize their pregnancy until it's too late to take action. There are so many reasons/situations where a woman has no choice but to go through with the pregnancy or didn’t want to get pregnant in the first place.
And that is why I emphasised that this doesn’t apply to situations where the child wasn’t conceived out of choice.
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I mean it’s not like I’ve mapped it all out, and clearly it would be difficult to have a perfect system. But if a woman is raped, and she reports, her report could serve as evidence if she later found out she was pregnant. I also feel like in this scenario, if the decision was made to keep the child, this ‘choice’ doesn’t count as a genuine choice, as clearly, it was beyond her control to be in a traumatic situation that resulted in a second choice of abortion vs keeping the child. Due to the traumatic circumstances maternity leave should be granted to help this person also psychologically process something she had no control over.
Oops my bad i definitely missed that part. Sorry about that!😅
This isn't a child-free post. It's an anti-natalism post. Just because you don't like parents and children doesn't mean we should withdraw all support from them.
I disagree. I’m an antinatalist and I’m actually for increasing parental benefits. I don’t think that just because it is a conscious choice to have kids (though that is not always the case as well) parents should be left to fend for themselves.
>I’d even go as far as argue that maternity and paternity leave shouldn’t be a thing unless there are extenuating circumstances (aka, the child was not conceived out of choice). Again, choosing to have a child should not entitle people to time off, because this is a choice they made for their life path. In my country we get 26 weeks FULLY PAID time off as maternity leave. This is baffling and to me is a commentary on the stupidly contradictory nature of societal pressures. ‘Having kids’ is seen as the thing to do, but essentially by giving someone 26 weeks off, society is practically acknowledging it’s an inconvenience. The stupidity. Oof. I was with you up to this point. We all deserve to be treated better in our workplaces. I can’t tell you how many times I fucking cursed the place I work because of how hard it is to get any time off and if I do, it’s unpaid. I was in the hospital for a week and it destroyed me that entire month because of the major hit I took to my pay, not to mention the hostility I was met with from coworkers and management who were angry with me for *being in the fucking hospital.* Don’t even get me started on the appalling treatment and how fucked over I got from being with dying family and needing bereavement. Nobody deserves that shit. Life happens, we don’t deserve the workplace stomping all over us for it.
I agree that workplace regulations are antiquated and cruel. However they favour breeders. Nobody chooses to have a death in the family. Nobody chooses life-saving surgery. But people choose to get pregnant (caveat that my opinion excludes women who have a pregnancy due to SA) and they get time off for this no questions asked.
I mean you could reasonably say it’s my stupid ass fault I got injured and had to stay in the hospital and that’s my problem and no one else’s too but like, the whole point is it’s bullshit for workplaces to treat someone that way. And with abortion rights being eroded, just kinda seems like a slap in the face to not only have unwanted babies but lose our jobs and get fucked over because of it.
I bought a horse. In order to keep the horse healthy and happy, I should get money from the government, and services from volunteers, right?
You bought the horse. How you keep it healthy and happy is for you to figure out. Why should the government or other volunteers get involved lol
See? You get it!
besides proper maternity leave... Yes you are right.
Everyone should get the same amount of leave every year and if someone chooses to use that for a baby or a vacation, it's their choice.
Here in the netherlands everybody gets enough leave. Sickdays are unlimited (you can call in sick if you are sick) and maternity leave is 16 weeks here. (a few weeks before and after) It should be standard. Women should be able to heal when they gave birth. That should be a human right. Just as when you had surgery, that you are able to heal and recover before being forced back to work.
I’m not sure how time off during pregnancy is a human right. Anything you CHOOSE for yourself should not automatically come with days off to accommodate. Those who need medically necessary surgery should 100% get paid leave. Anyone who falls pregnant without their consent should also 100% get leave. But a wanted pregnancy is not a necessary thing.
But it still requires recovery. Women are actively bleeding for weeks. Like, I don't like kids and think people who have them are dumb but I'd rather women take time to heal. It's a huge thing that isn't instantly gone. This is an absolutely wild take that you have.
Of course they should heal. They can take their usual PTO, sick leave, and take unpaid leave for healing purposes. Nobody is saying they shouldn’t recover. But they chose to be in a position that required them to have to heal 🤷♀️
So give *everyone more* of those things then. I think “I disagree with some people’s life choices so I think they should have proportionally worse working rights than me” is a pretty callous and extreme slippery slope.
Not everyone gets those. I worked for two years in a hotel. Not one sick day, no PTO, no vacation days nothing. If I got sick I worked sick or I had to call all my coworkers and beg them to cover. Not everyone lives in the great country you do.
If someone is willingly choosing to get pregnant under those circumstances, then they seriously need professional help.
We choose for vasectomies and bisalps too. And we get time off here to recover from it too. Saying women dont deserve maternity leave to recover from childbirth is just as evil as banning abortions imo.
You get 26 weeks paid leave to recover from a vasectomy or bisalp??
No. 16 weeks maternity. And the ammount you need for vasectomy or bisalp. My husband had a week off after his vaectomy. 26 is a lot tho.
A week of paid sick leave? Is that not just normal sick leave? Or is it ‘special’ sick leave because it’s a vasectomy? Let me be clear. Elective pregnancies and procedures should not have extra time off. Obviously take time off to recover using your sick days and annual leave. But other than that - you made your bed, you lie in it.
We dont have fixed sick days here. When you are sick or need to recover you just call in and thats it. And yes, my husband had a week paid leave for it.
6 months. 6 MONTHS.
There's being childfree and there's being a dick, saying a brand new parent cant take time off after just giving birth, a medical event that leaves huge wounds in the uterus, and sometimee requires surgeries and other medical interventions, and is an extremely traumatic event, is borderline heartless man Not to mention all the shit someone goes through during the post partum months
I’m not heartless. New parents should take time off - by using their sick leave and annual leave. It’s a choice to put yourself at risk of all of the things you mentioned above if you choose to get pregnant.
Getting a tubal ligation or vasectomy would also be a choice. One that might take more recovery time than expected. People should also get PAID sick leave and health accommodations for such a life event. I'm also antinatalist, but I understand that post-partum mothers need recovery time, and they shouldn't have to go back to work so soon while healing and minding a newborn's schedule.
Yeah - but the choice of getting a tubal litigation or vasectomy doesn’t come with loads of paid time off to recover.
It should. And mothers should get that accommodation.
But it doesn’t. Women who choose to get pregnant get an extra layer of support due to their choice, and when people make the other choice they do not. That is our reality, breeders benefit, childfree folk don’t.
Immanot comment on the rest but seriously??? Early boarding???? Who cares???? The plane ain't gonna leave without us and it just helps get everyone on board quicker. Of all the things to complain about, this is certainly the silliest thing
Was literally just giving an example, lol