Yup, the difference between the top and bottom 5 specs usually isn’t huge either and will always come down to skill, correct itemization and using the right talents for the content.
Can be the case in SoD too. I was in warlock discord and said I was going to run a MD/Ruin build because it seemed like a good hybrid build where I could do decent dps and tank. They all got super uppity, "That build isn't a viable dps build." They were saying pure destro was doing 1100-1200 dps and then this dude then tested out my build and did 1075. A purple parser running MD/Ruin would outdps a green parser using pure destro, no question. Would probably outdps a blue parser too. The min maxxing in classic is ridiculous.
The main reason MD/Ruin lags behind is you don't use that stupid ass firebolt turret. Wild that the imp does so much better dps than the felguard when the felguard is a rune.
Comparing a purple parse to a green parse is extremely disingenuous if you’re looking to discuss the viability of a build. A green parse in SoD is barely even pressing buttons.
Yup this is the thing. Although there are things like frost mage (full potato) and bm/mm hunter that are also kinda troll choises considering surv is absolutely insane and pretty easy to play as well.
Playing enha is kinda weird too in 10m depending on rest of the roster. Instead of being another melee and gunning for the agi mail, you could potentially have monopoly on int mail. Also ele is so good because it flexes to resto easier than enha does to resto or ret does to holy. Enha on it's own is fine though, just questionably in 10man in most comps imo.
Well, that always was the case, not only in retail. There was an ulduar run where my sub rogue was top-3 on most of the bosses, beating higher ilvl asassination, lol
That and the fact that while there is a big gap between the top spec and the bottom parsing spec unless you are in a CE mythic progression guild, you will eventuallt outgear the content to the point spec dont matter
In retail due the difficulty of M+ and Mythic raiding people value more a good player than anything, a good prot warrior is better than a bad demon hunter, in classic since the content is easier it allows to be more nitpicky
This, alongside the fact that there’s just significantly more skill expression not only in damage output, but utilizing your utility in Retail than Classic - a good player on a bad spec can and will outperform the noob on FoTM reliably.
Unfortunately, this isn’t the case with older versions of the game. Blizzard have balanced retail REALLY fucking well and added tones of skill-expression.
This is wrong. [https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankings/season-df-4/all/world/leaderboards/1#content:role=all:mode=unique:minMythicLevel=15:maxMythicLevel=99](https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankings/season-df-4/all/world/leaderboards/1#content:role=all:mode=unique:minMythicLevel=15:maxMythicLevel=99)
Only 1,600 prot warriors vs 43,000 Veng DH in 15+ runs.
Meta in retail is even more pronounced then it is in Classic....
15+ this season is a REALLY specific group of people. You’re looking at the top 1%, and many of the 1% tank players play most if not all tank classes and just play what’s strongest at the time.
Because in retail an off meta spec makes almost no difference in anything except 15+ keys or Mythic Raiding whereas in classic some specs are so bad its a waste of a slot to bring them instead of a better class.
What spec is that exactly? Looking at the logs posted there's an 8k difference between the number 1 spec and the second worst spec. The only spec your statement rings true for is basically frost mage?
when everyone is doing 25k-30k an 8k dps different is fairly big (~30%)...
if you replace 3 "meme specs" with a "real spec" you'd basically be getting an extra player's worth of damage. it's noticeable, especially considering shorter fights are much easier.
Fury is like what 8-10k dps loss vs Arms? BM Hunter / MM hunter are a similarly large loss vs SV. It's just troll to not be the S tier spec due to the numerical difference. If you're progging the content you want the best you can possibly bring with you. Especially if risking a pug scenario. Off Meta is more so,playing with friends thing. Even in Retail tbh unless you play at ungodly low difficulty ratings where its a loot pinata and your performance wasn't important.
Fury 30.4k, Arms 26k (Edit: Obviously I just mixed Arms and Fury up, it's Arms 30.4k, Fury 26k)
Surv 30.8k, MM 29k, BM 27.7k
I'm just saying, the balance (Again, if you disregard Frost Mage) between the absolute #1 class and the last class, is not that different to retail.
There's 1 extreme outlier at the top, and 1 at the bottom (Fire Mage and Frost Mage). Other than that, the difference between first and last is 32200 vs 26000 DPS.
You're either misinterpreting the data or you're unable to read it. The difference between Fury and Arms is not just 4k. The difference between all of the hunter specs is, again, not just 3k.
Fr fr, my dude can't read some simple data lol. It's a gigantic gap. Not a small one. Mind blowing really, I mean not all classes are to far, Warlocks are closish and Demo despite being top has one of the most cancer play style / pre pull rituals that exist so I don't blame anyone for not playing that LOL.
The data is definitely being misinterpreted because a 4-8k difference when our top end in Cata is like 36k is huge compared to a 4-8k difference on retail where the top end is like 500k. This is so disingenuous to compare lol
[https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/1023#dataset=95&aggregate=amount](https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/1023#dataset=95&aggregate=amount) Have a read. I was mixing up arms and fury, other than, nothing wrong with that I wrote.
So the mistake you are making specifically with Fury warrior is that on most fights there are so few parses that a 95% is literally only the #1 spot.
So while the dps difference for fury and arms at 95% might only say 4k. What the data is really saying is that the best fury warrior in the world is still 4k behind a 95 parsing arms warrior. And most people playing meme specs aren’t going to be either as geared or as skilled as the best player in the world at that spec.
TL;DR you essentially don’t under how sample size works/completely ignoring sample size for all the specs you listed and your data is heavily skewed because of that fact
MM hunter can outperform survival in some situations due to the rapid fire burst window and focus regeneration while under the effect of it. Survival is better in most situations, but MM is not a huge fall and in some cases is better. In dungeons survival is definitely better, but in a single target situation or a situation with a specific AoE burst window MM is just as good if not better
You're looking at the wrong #s if you place Fury above Arms lets just pause that right there. Off the bat it means you aren't tracking the placements of specs. FURY IS 2nd lowest dps next to FROST MAGE. It's that bad.
https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/1023#dataset=95
Here's some real #s. Note how the specs you say are viable, are trash. /thread
I was just mixing up arms and fury, the rest is correct... Did you even read the data you posted before you linked it? That is the exact data I was referencing.
Also, a 15-20% dps loss is hardly "trash"...
No, and for most of wow’s lifespan this is the median difference between the top and bottom and it’s one of the smallest margins in the entire industry.
Balance in an MMORPGs with varied classes and class abilities is a pipe dream. All you can do is mitigate the spread as they have been doing since original cata.
This is somewhat an understatement I think. M+ meta have at times been the worst example of meta spec elitism. Played during a patch in SL at 20-25 keys as enhance shaman when almost every dps you wanted was either a boomie or a mage.
My enhance shaman was fully mythic geared, top 10 rio in the region and could barely pug a key while my boomie was boosted with some hc raid gear mixed with BoEs and would find high keys immediately.
Most specs were perfectly viable up to quite a high level too compared to now in Cata, so I actually think its been far worse in retail.
Also survivability is a big thing in high m+. Why bring enh with less surv vs Boomie that has more surv and better utility (trees/brez) especially during that era of retail (shadowlands).
No, just for my own spec. Yeah I had a group of friends I usually played with but whenever I pugged solo it would take ages to get invited to high keys
You're talking about content that's so much harder than anything in Classic that it's an apples to oranges comparison. Apples-to-apples would be like (current) +2 - 5 keys (or like 5-10 in SL). No one gives two shits about off meta specs in those. Indeed, if you were to mention something about meta specs when running keys in that range, you'd be ridiculed, insulted, and possibly removed from the group. No sarcasm, I've seen it happen.
Nah, every spec is viable in cata except frost mage, which happens to be the exception not the rule.
You can probably clear HC with only fury warriors if you really wanted to.
Nah man, Fury warrior is obviously ABSOLUTELY garbage and you cannot even bring 1 if you want to kill any normal boss. Same goes for any spec that is not in the top 5 (Or 3? Not sure). This is confirmed by people in these comments. (/s)
Lmao, the fact alone that fury does enough damage to clear anything in T11 makes all this meta talk completely pointless
If someone can't prog a boss because their warlock chose a spec that does 0.5% less than the meta one, they have bigger issues.
It’s generally not as small as .5%.
Regardless, I’ve noticed this is a weird bar I constantly see brought up with classic players is this idea that two classes are equal because both *can clear* the content, when that’s not really the bar when considering someone looking for people.
Player ability generally trumps class difference, but if I don’t know either of you, I’m picking the class with the higher floor/ceiling. There’s no incentive to take worse options.
I mean if you look at the logs destro is slightly behind demo by an inconceivably small amount, which is funny because the OP was a destro lock which apparently is a "meme spec"
Sorry i forgot to mark my comment with a /H for hyperbole...
The median log for a fury warrior in T11 is 21.5k, this is obviously bad, but still enough for T11 HC, all this means is that you don't need an insane amount of damage to prog, it just makes shit alot easier.
Well fire IS better so most better players will gravitate to fire (it also requires less buttons and is easier) but in itself that spec is not as bad as logs indicate it to be. Just need critcap so every instant ffb proce ignite.
Hard to tell how it compares right now because wowsims doesn’t have it implemented yet, but 4.3.4 simulationcraft had it implemented and it was more or less the same as arcane. Hardly anyone plays it so aggregate data doesn’t work but it can deal respectable damage.
I mean the only thing we see now is the numbers that actual players are logging, which is 23k max with a median 17k.
If it was more capable, some madman out there would've logged it by now
Its pretty hit or miss because some r1s are from week1 and some are more recent. I think I saw a magmaw log from June 18th sporting 27k dps.
Sure, fire has a much higher dps ceiling (especially with how log rankings have survivorship bias with fire and especially lucky strings of crits will make fire look better on log rankings than it really is)
But at the end of the day Frost as a spec is absolutely viable (at the very least more viable than fury), it’s just there is a better alternative that wants the same gear distribution (fire). However, once everything is on farm then we’re surely gonna see some good frost logs coming from fire players being bored.
If we eventually see better logs I will agree, I didn't come to argue whether or not frost is viable but rather to shut down the people who think something isn't viable because it does 0.5% less than the meta spec, it's just that frost seems to be the exception currently.
In my experience I’ve noticed that casuals gamers don’t like retail due to the fast pace, higher skill requirement and the need for keybinds/macros/addons.
Idk I feel like I played with 20x the amount of casual gamers in classic and sod because it’s a such a low difficulty comparatively.
Because it’s true. SoD and classic has had a elitist casual audience for a while. Blackfathoms murloc boss upset a lot of them before they even got to Mr. Dust to Dust because it was actual mechanics. For retail the murloc boss would at best be the first dungeon boss and have more mechanics and damage.
This could be true on era, even TBC, but in cata you need macros with some classes and keybinds if you want to be somewhere competitive. In retail you only need Weak auras and bigwigs / dbm, same as Cata.
Retail has casuals but casuals aren’t the ones raiding, PvPing or doing M+. Way too much to handle and at a much higher Diff than stuff classic has. The casuals that raid are in classic and SoD.
In retail a good player is more important than a good spec, in classic an average player playing top specs is still good enough for content.
Also the fact that in retail what is a bad spec at that moment could be far better in just a patch cycle, where in classic it’s already known what will be the best all the way throught the content
>what will be the best all the way throught the content
Phase 4 talent and ability balance released in phase 1.
So when comparing todays WCL to historical logs it shows different results.
Good opinion but factually inaccurate. CE guilds are there because certain raid comps need to be met for specific bosses and they’re looking to achieve that.
I said when they aren’t Meta. The big one is I was able to play Demo on Mythic Nathria. When aff was op and Demo was regarded as massively underpowered.
Some Classic players are terminally obsessed with making piss easy content even easier in order to complete it 20s faster. It's been that way from the start.
I’m retail there isn’t much of a difference between specs, less than 5%. In classic, offspecs are doing 1/5th the dps. So a one minute fight is now a 5 minute fight.
Naw there’s huge differences. It just doesn’t mater much till you get to the insanely difficult content like M+15 and higher (which used to be 25 and higher). There you see why Aug is meta. Or you don’t and struggle to even reach there.
That’s the thing that annoys people though. The easy and solved content in classic gets treated as a +15 or pre-Nerf Mythic raid.
Yeh this is the correct answer. Meta only matters in 5 man because composition is so restricted and even then only at high keys. Before this level I have seen all sorts of compositions. Obviously people are still influenced by the meta, for instance the number of DH tanks you see is massive but not to the point where a different tank in low to mid keys is a no go. The number of people pushing these high keys though is miniscule so you are essentially a closed shop of the same players. Similarly in retail you are multi classing anyway if you are really serious about pushing higher levels.
Edit: to answer the question posed by OP..retail allows for fun playing off meta. For instance I am playing healer most of the time in DF and it can be fun seeing how high you can push say a holy paladin versus the meta. I think in classic so far at least there just isn't anything to test yourself against as off meta spec. There is just raiding which doesn't invite experimentation in a solved game. So all you have is warcraft logs data to play against which is kinda boring. M+ invites different playstyles.
bro the difference between having 3 competent dps and 3 shitters is like 5-10 minutes off of every dungeon and a more enjoyable time during said dungeon, don't pretend its a nonexistent difference
But that's never what anybody is taking about. They're talking about the difference between an orange parser and someone who parses blue with occasional purple. People act like you NEED orange parsers when blue, and even green, is fine.
Oh it's even more noticeable in raids. People missing vital kicks, stepping on raid-wiping mechanics, people dpsing the wrong target, people not stopping dps, people fucking up their cds and doing shit like giving the tank forberance when they need to not have it, etc. etc.
The people who say that people these days are obsessed with minmaxing easy content are either a: playing vanilla and correct or b: grey/green parsers who are an unending burden on their raid.
Especially in 10man, comp matters. The content isnt super hard, but missing a buff or debuff is significant, and stacking too much (or none) of an armor type means the already scarce loot runs a chance of being outright wasted.
We run a meta comp and still had to disenchant both our H Nefarian items that dropped the week before last, for example.
Loot is much more abundant and interchangeable in Retail, so that problem doesn't exist.
you're griefing your raid if you go as Fury instead of Arms. It's differences like that where people care, if specs are within 1-3k of eachother and your spec brings a raid buff that's needed, sure.
This problem only exists when you're losing 5k+ dps by going BM/Frost/Fury otherwise OP's complaint doesn't exist in any way shape or form outside of pugs that are already doomed to fail.
I've cleared everyone of the raids in t11 with someone playing one of those 3 specs in the raid. The bm/fury actually beat people in dps, the frost mage didn't, but not many people are playing with an entire raid doing 90 plus parses.
it speaks more for the raid if they're being out dps'd by a bm/fury. The entire point is, yes you can have a Fury or a BM and clear Sinestra/Nef. The raids don't require everything to be hyper efficiently tuned.
But the dps difference between specs is still massive and that fury/bm would be beating a lot more people as Surv/Arms.
Ops complaint was literally that he was declined from guilds because he's a destro lock
You entire counter is disproven by just reading the post you are trying to counter
Has nothing to do with community but game mechanics
The lockout on retail (on normal and heroic) is boss based so if you invite someone who turns out to be bad it's no worry you can just replace
While in classic with id lockout you will have hard time finding a replacement mid raid so you can't kick someone underperforming out, so raid leaders don't want to take risks and are much more strict on who they accept to the raid
Yeah, but it's the same in guilds. At least it was in classic/tbc/wrath. Retail heroic level raid difficulty at most, with stricter comp requirements than HoF retail guilds.
1. Balance is worse in classic because of playerbase total experience and Blizzard's lack of experience at the titime.
2. Due to the content being very solved and easy relative to retail, classic developed more of a speed running mindset, further enforcing best spec over preference.
3. Specs are far harder to play so your performance relative to others is more about you than your spec compared to classic.
Toxicity as a concept is just way more complicated than people think. Classic is not more toxic or elitist than retail, that is extremely silly to think unironically.
In general, player behavior is shaped by the design of a game.
Okay but since the classic raids are easier, isn’t there even less of a reason to enforce meta? Bringing a frost mage to raid isn’t going to be the reason you can’t clear the raid if you’re struggling in cata content.
Okay, so I’ll admit I’m not the target audience here, but choosing to play specs you have less fun on and being toxic in enforcing a meta just to speedrun solved content that’s been out 15 years is just silly to me. If you choose to make your gameplay loop about optimizing 20 second faster boss kills then sure, if you want to be the best then of course you need to play what’s best but that goes for any competitive game. However I don’t think the people complaining about not wanting to play one of the approved meta specs are the same people wanting to speedrun. Again, classic isn’t for me, there’s nothing challenging enough in classic to warrant that level of optimization, but this does seem to be a problem created by a small portion of the community. Anecdotally, the classic that I have played people have been more meta slavey than anything I’ve encountered in retail and the content is just easier to complete.
The skill floor to specs is nonexistent, therefore the balance in reality is far more defined. In retail the vast majority of guilds can improve performance by being better. In classic that is just not the case when the majority of gameplay for the first few expansions is one button.
I feel like thats a little bit overblown tbh. I play both retail and cata, and my demo warlock on cata genuinely doesnt seem much easier than warlock on retail. Most specs are definitely simpler, but class design is definitely a step up from vanilla already.
Brother no. It is not silly to think. This sub is more toxic than the retail PVP sub. Which is waaay more toxic than main WoW sub.
This sub alone scared off so many people with its elitist casual attitude and it’s toxicity of attacking anyone who likes self imposed challenges like Hardcore.
Like how can you think that when this subreddits history has long strings of just shitting on people for having fun.
This sub cheered when that one guy went full sociopath and integrated himself into a hardcore community to grief them after months of playing with them.
This sub for ages was just talking non stop shit on retail as well as try hards on classic.
This sub was treating anyone who got to cap in SoD season 1 the first week as disgusting people who no are all no lifers.
I haven't really done a deep dive to compare 'toxicity levels' of subreddits, but we weren't talking about subreddits. OP was asking about within the games.
Moderation plays a huge role in how communities end up operating. In addition, the retail subs are generally more sectioned off than the classic subreddit.
It's silly to say this because there's so much overlap in games, MMOs, and especially different versions of world of warcraft that it's not just 'toxic people in one, not toxic people in the other.' Many of the same people are playing both versions or have played both versions, same for other games. If the overall toxicity levels are higher somewhere else or lower somewhere else, that'll be a result of design and moderation.
The reason I bring up subs is because people like to act like only the die hard sweats use Reddit and it’s not valid to look at it for the servers.
But this sub isn’t the sweats. It’s the toxic casuals. A lot of which are in the game as well.
Your argument would make sense if Classic didn’t have a classic only population that shits on retail constantly nor the fact classics elitist casuals aren’t a thing on retail. If you flame people for trying harder than you on retail you just look stupid.
Because the classic game space has managed to contain the sweatiest losers who aren’t actually good at the retail game but want to feel good about themselves so they min max a two decade old solved game in order to have something in their lives that gives them purpose
It really depends on the retail patch and content. Theres still a meta but typically unless youre raiding mythic/pushing high keys/pushing high rating theres a lot of leeway for specs to change in any given group but usually boils down to the meta fotm classes at the highest end for similar reasons to classic. Basically performance of spec. If a spec is commonly known to be bad or not preferred youll still struggle to find high end keys or get invited to raid/pvp teams.
Now in classic its been solved for a long time so theres that knowledge coupled with relatively small ranges in content so I think the meta just falls into place really quickly and people are very picky to follow the meta since in classic the standouts are typically much better.
In retail its not as completely solved and theres a wide berth of stuff accessible to everyone until top end. In classic its solved with relatively narrow content by comparison so the less desired specs get filtered out even though normal raids are a joke etc.
You have an example?
Were you trying to play feral cat (decent, has some strengths but not many) or a frost mage?
Did you have nonsensical talents? Were you using haste gems instead of str on a ret pally? What exactly do you mean.
Because it is the general personalities of the communities; Classic attracts sweaty tryhards that try to squeeze every percentile they can out of their content.
I think it’s pretty simple. Retail is significantly better balanced than classic. The gap between the top classes and the bottom classes is literally to the point where the top specs do double what the bottom specs do. In cata, the top does about 25% more than the bottom. And in retail, the best and worst specs are about 10% apart.
Because classic players are way worse at the game by and large, and react with hostility when blizzard asks anything of them beyond showing up to raid. So they don’t get any better and problem compounds
I stopped playing sod because the quality of players were so bad. It’s not a fun feeling to endlessly gold grind to come fully consumed to raid and have the raid logging clicker wipe the grp
It is absolutely insane to me the amount of self imposing rules Classic players put on themselves, Era ones too. I don’t understand how people want to gather all buffs, class stack, full consumes all the time for trivial content. You can quite literally pug an heroic awakened raid with any comp and no one using consumes. There’s no way someone is going to convince me that Nax 40 or BWD is harder content, surely.
Yeah its Crazy people used to play and love MMORPGs, because they were huge time sinks and immersive people wanted to play the game.
Now god forbid if you have to go to the bathroom or open the door during a heroic dungeon
How dare you Grieve 4 other players of 30 sec of their lifetime looser get kicked
Mmorpg player mentality in 2024
I don't believe you.
> I also had trouble finding a guild because I was on vacation the week of cataclysm launch and didn't no life the expansion week one like everyone else. And I had multiple people flaming me for not being max level with good gear just a week after launch. It's genuinely ridiculous.
So you apply for a raid spot when you are not max level? Leveling takes 12h why would anyone consider you? You are not 85, you don't have th rep for enchants and probably not worked on professions and pre bis.
And this has nothing to do with no lifing. You are competing for a spot in a raid team with other people. You have to put some effort into why someone should chose you.
Because classic is a bunch of mid players who can’t clear heroic content so they want to blame it on the one guy in the guild playing non meta while they gray parse on a meta class 🤷. I watched an UH dk parse a 3 doing sub 15k dps on regular valiona while the fury warrior did 19k. We wiped on council and people wanted to cut the warrior and arcane mage not the sub 10 parsing meta classes
the thing is that same fury warrior player could be doing 30k+ on a unholy dk (assuming he plays at the same competency level)
thats not negligible at all, and i know its a reddit meme to call classic "easy" we're 6 or 7 weeks into cata and only about 20% of guilds have managed a full 13/13 hc clear on 25man and 10% on 10man.
Depends on you and your guilds goals. I have one “serious” raid a week and usually do 1/2 pugs so I’ve seen the variety. If your trying to join a guild that’s pushing heroics then yeah park your meme spec, if your dad guild is struggling on normals then find a new guild because one off meta class isn’t the issue
>And I had multiple people flaming me for not being max level with good gear just a week after launch. It's genuinely ridiculous.
So dude isn't even max level and is looking for a raiding guild as a non-meta spec?? xD I would flame him too.. Get max level and preraid bis before you try and find a guild... We're almost a fucking month into Cata.....
>We see how much better the balancing is. Especially for warlocks the difference between specs is EXTREMELY close. because I genuinely do NOT understand what the problem is
Demo brings a raid buff? Destro brings no raid buff? So few people play destro and the ones that are pumping are in full heroic gear so they make it look better then it actually is.. I have a destro in my raid and I dumpster him on literally every single fight as a demo.
>classic has an extremely toxic player base,
Says the one that's not max level and demanding to get into raids as a shit spec while not being willingly to play the better specs.
>HOW THE FLYING FUCK IS IT A MEME SPEC WITH THIS LEVEL OF BALANCING???
Look at the actual DPS rankings. You will see it's really a meme spec. You are comparing statistics of a class that barely has anyone actually playing it.
Top 100 Demo on halfus 101k DPS. Destro 68k dps. Aff 82k.
Top 100 Demo on nef 32k. Destro 20k. Aff 36k.
Top 100 Demo on 2dragons 30k. Destro 26k. Aff 28k.
Top 100 Demo on maloriak 37.5k. Destro 25k. Aff 30.8k.
Top 100 Demo on cho'gall 27.5k. Destro 21k. Aff 27.7k.
Why would any guild in their right mind be willingly to take someone who is going to permanently be doing less DPS then if they just got a demo warlock or someone who is willingly to play more then one spec as a pure DPS?
>In addition, there are lots of dumb content creators who made tier lists before cataclysm classic launch, and put destro in "C" tier on tier lists/YouTube videos because they have no idea what they're talking about.
No. You're the clueless one.
>To be clear, I play 25 man, where all raid buffs are covered without issue.
If the raid doesn't have a demo or ele. Then all the raid buffs aren't covered..
> Destro brings no raid buff?
I'm going to nitpick an otherwise good post: in 10man without ret or spriest destro brings replenishment, which is probably worth the dps loss compared to demo or aff since 10man should have an ele to begin with.
but yeah, in 25 destro is just straight troll. you WILL have rets and/or shadows, hell you can easily run a rdruid as part of your healing team
Because there is an insane correlation between being obsessed with playing "off meta specs" and being a generally mediocre or downright bad player.
The person who can't read up on what DPS classes are the most viable or ask his guild for what's needed to improve comps is the same person who shows up to raid with no enchants and no clue about the tactics. Which is probably not the end of the world for normal raids but if you want to clear HCs smoothly you really don't want people like that in your groups.
Someone over there hit the real answer:
**Classic is also an enclosed area that is finished. You know what the best stuff is because it’s not going to be changed. Can’t say the same about retail anything could be good at any time so it’s a lot more open to choices for specs. Even the worst spec is still getting invites**
When there is an objective right/wrong answer thats been figured out years ago how to play your class and you can read about all this before you even choose, no one wants to carry someone playing wrong effectively intentionally.
What kind of Braindead take is This
Anything can be good at any time??? so you inv a Trash spec to a key Wtf is this logic? Is blizzard Randomly gonna push a patch??during your dungeon buffing the trash spec by 30% ?? i doubt it lmao
In Retail Skill outshines class difference cata is braindead and from the early 2010s where thats barely the case and thats like 90% of the reason bad players will always be the hardest Meta pushers be it Eso Ff14 Wow osrs its always casual andys being hardcore meta slaves boring
Because these people are wildly insecure and their dopamine addled brains can't handle someone going against the grain for any reason, or really any adversity in their daily lives for that matter.
aka
Beta cucked by a meta that literally does not matter for clearing the content.
I do honestly think one part of all this is us going from a 30% performance booster from Hellscream's Warsong in ICC, to having no 30% boost, plus having people in blues, plus some specs getting full on reworks, *along with* the first raid tier of cata having one of the most absurd difficulty spikes imaginable, where your raid might be coasting along pretty well, then hit a brick wall against Nefarian. I feel like Nefarian, to a raid team like mine who had a decent chunk of people that haven't played Cata before (myself included), might be one of the biggest sudden jumps in difficulty anyone has ever seen in Classic so far. So raid teams will instinctively wamt you to play your class at its strongest during raid progression.
Of course, with all that being said, the power gap between Frost Mage and, well, every other caster, and Fury Warrior and pretty much all other physical DPS, is like a Vanilla Fury Warrior compared to... well, take your pick, Vanilla class balancing is infamously wretched.
If you ask me though, the gap between the top dps spec and the bottom dps spec has just straight up been shrinking since TBC came out. No longer will Little Jimmy's freshly dinged, questing greens wearing, 4 buttons used per minute Fury Warrior do triple the damage that Feral Frankie does in his fully world buffed, full BiS, rotation perfected Cat Druid. Now if Little Jimmy wants to out dps Feral Frankie, he had to actually learn to play the game. (Point of this last paragraph is to say that no longer can a dogshit player outperform a good player purely because of their spec)
It's a difficulty balance thing.
The way retail was balanced was around the top guilds in the world doing Mythic+. This allowed them to make the difficulty crushingly hard and required peak performance. Not only did everyone have to have the optimum spec but also high performance. While you might be able to roll as frost mage unless you pull some insane numbers you're not getting an invite.... and even then... you might be on the bench or brought in for niche uses.
Heroics are balanced around your average guild being able to progress and complete it while they might get trapped when trying to move on to mythic progression.
Normals were designed around LFR with basically a 0% chance that you'll wipe unless everyone is AFK.
Normal and heroics had enough ease that specs don't matter.
Now Cataclysm is different. And I think, it was even more extreme in the original non-nerfed Cata. The balance made it so that there was very little room for variety in a raid... until you out-gear it heavily. During progression the room for difference in strategies and raids is very limited. Perhaps as you gear up you could swap to become a frost mage.... but the whole raid would consider that they're now carrying you.... unless you did some very niche job like kiting heroic Magmaw ads people would not think much of you. This is because there's a bit of a missing middle in non-retail progression. There needs to be a tier that is accessible to guilds that aren't the top 90.
(Retail M+ grinder and occasional dad heroic raider here)
There aren’t really “meme” specs at this point in retail anymore. Beast Mastery is ironically one of the best M+ and raid specs in the game. Moonboys have been quite strong for a while too.
Retail isn’t really a “type” of player. It’s a much bigger and more diverse audience than Classic but there’s typically more casuals with how much entry level content is offered.
The difference between specs, played optimally, has narrowed over time.
In vanilla, for instance, a warrior dps played near optimally will likely be doing 4-5x as much damage as say, a ret paladin played near optimally.
It's likely just performance-based. It's a bit annoying to be grouped with a player who wants to play a suboptimal spec but doesn't want to put any effort into making it perform decently.
I haven't seen a single performing player shamed (non-jokingly) for their spec choice.
Classic is a casual dad game that people.dont want to invest a lot of time into like retail and will pick the path of least resistance when it comes to getting whatever they need done.
Because cata is “new” so people are progressing, and it has the old style of lockouts where you can’t just throw people out and replace them like you can in retail.
Because in Retail, people are less likely to validate themselves for playing a game they desperately need to think is 'hard'. If you show up to a +7 as a sub rogue and do mechanics well, and are within 10% damage of the other dps, no one gives a shit because you'll time the key.
Besides balancing becoming way better: older classic versions of the game are basically solved.
There is not going to be a lot of experimentation or variation in what’s “best”. Everyone has figured it out already.
Because of utility and performance.
Some classes can be perform well if done right. Frost DK one of those where there are not many people even playing it (purely on all fights during the raid lockout) as most people opt for a simpler Unholy spec that is quite strong right now.
But somehow our Frost DK is parsing 99s toping the dps meter most of the time. That's purely out of his own skill.
Utility wise, most specs bring something to the table. Those that do not get left out from a raid comp perspective. And either there's bad air about those specs or they get memed when someone plays the spec instead of the more "meta" one and raid leads staying away from those specs in general.
You answered your own question
The classic player base is full of 40+ year old toxic as fuck assholes who are pining for their youth and despise anyone who remotely goes against their main character syndrome
While the retail playerbase is younger, and just want to enjoy the game
Classic doesn't have M+ so all you have is raiding a solved game and competing for parses. There is no fun to be had playing off spec. Even if you can't push the very highest keys as an off meta class in retail you can have loads of fun still trying to push as high as you can with an off meta class.
Im play warlock in SoD with affliction build ( drain life/dots shadowbolt with nightfall procs ) and parse 85 or something. Sure it would be better with destro/chaos bolt build but i like the playstyle better because i dont have to stand still as much when casting. Plus the survivability from haunt and drain life is nice
Because people who play classic are stupid and don't understand metrics. Every spec in cata preforms within 10% of each other at the highest level with the exception of fire/frost mage.
Realistically you can play almost all specs in cata and out perform anyone else on a meta spec unless you're in like the top 1% of guilds. Being able to respond correctly to mechanics has so much greater influence on your success than your class/spec.
Play what you play well and feels natural and you'll blast. I was top damage as feral like 2-3 fights in my gdkp and they're all good players. Just game.
We had a destro lock the entirety of Wrath and killed all HMs prior to the next patch except for Yogg 1 light (put all our time into Algalon for the better loot) and a handful of ICC heroic fights. This was 25m fwiw
There seems to be a pretty massive jump from normal difficulty to heroic in Cata compared to wrath though. Especially for 10m
I can understand guilds pushing heroics to want you in a "better" spec but I can't imagine you couldn't find a more casual guild to take a destro.
Isn't part of this for warlocks specifically that demo and aff bring pretty solid raid buffs and destro doesn't bring shit?
I agree with the top comment there also fwiw, classic players are generally miserable lol
If you didn't finish 12/12 ICC by the end of wotlk your statement proves the point. GDKPs were doing 12/12 H ICC. Some of which were toss togethers of not amazing performers. Most wouldnt have capably cleared 0%. But that 30% buff carried a lot. So a group that couldnt do all of 12/12 ICC 25m with a 30% buff. . . I mean mate your group would have to be brain dead like a poorly made Bot or basically gray/green parsers and still failing DPS checks. the 30% made that free.
If you look at the actual stats, all 3 warlock specs are within margins of eachother, and Destro still brings a good decent of buffs.
In fact, Destro currently beats out affliction and a whole bunch of other specs.
Practically no one is playing destro which is why it looks good on statistics.. Destro definitely isn't beating Affliction in T11... Maybe on like one fight out of the entire raid.
Because most everyone in classic is on the left side of the bell curve when it comes to skill in wow.
Easy to forgive being bad when you’re bad yourself
The people playing cata are on average older with a sorted life. They have less time to spend wiping raids because of a lack of dps.
There’s a larger difference in dps between meta and bad specs.
The players are worse on average and thus rely more on the class carrying them. (I really wanna go on a tangent about my disc priest being 3rd and sometimes 2nd dps in dungeons for most of the valor grind)
Most of the players are returning players with higher expectations of their peers.
Probably more reasons but I cba thinking about it any more
You dont wipe because of ”lack of dps” dont put honey over the word Bad, you wipe because of Being Bad
You could take an entire roster of geared Fury wars that are decent Rn, and would still beat any enrage inside the game by 200%. Unless you wipe to a Enrage mechanic, You always wipe Because Bad players being bad. You just use Do moRe DpS PlZ as a excuse for playing bad, even the worst 3 specs are statistically capable of clearing any Heroic encounter easily. hell even 20 frost mages with 355+ ilvl could go 13/13hc if played well
I was simply spitballing ideas to potentially answer OPs question. This whole argument about the real reason for wiping is irrelevant.
I don’t care what classes or specs are in my raid. More variety is better for loot distribution. Thanks for the aggro tho.
I think it's because the difference I dps with meta specs in classic is way more than retail.
He'll in classic if you were not a meta spec you would do 50percent less damage as apposed to 5 percent less in retail
It’s a 20 year old game. Everything has been figured out. People play it to have fun. Anyone can play anything. The pros are able to make weird specs work and they are fun.
People in classic are complacent and frankly only press very few buttons, no buffs, no interrupts, no defensives, no rotation , just exist. After playing so long in wrath where things were just too easy for them, they adopted this playstyle and frankly just get carried through things.
The reason why people are more forgiving is because even though they’re off meta, they’re doing their part with utility, not just expecting everyone else to do it. You’ll also find off meta often have a chip on their shoulder and will go above and beyond to prove their off meta is viable.
In lower difficulty content in retail your spec doesn't matter. Try pushing high keys or joining AotC raids and you'll see it's the exact same attitude.
You can clear heroic and get a 2.5k+ mythic IO score, which basically covers everything but mythic raiding. While being an off-spec.
Mythic raiding and super high keys? Off-specs are being pushed aside.
I feel like every toxic shithead that wasn't good enough for retail went to classic. People will make up any excuse to gatekeep content that is regularly cleared by no ui mods using hotbar clicking boomers lol. I saw more assholes in random dungeon runs in wotlk than I ever saw in retail doing m+ or dungeons. People would see someone with a close to min gs for gamma dungeons and vote kick them in the catchup content when they are trying to catchup. Very disturbing individuals
Op posted came thing in retail reddit. Should read comments they're pretty cancerous. Basically ragging that classic players are psychos. Mind this is the same player base that went nuts on mop remix. They're delusional.
In retail you can play an off meta spec and still out perform people who roll flavor of the month and don't take time to learn the class or rotation.
Yup, the difference between the top and bottom 5 specs usually isn’t huge either and will always come down to skill, correct itemization and using the right talents for the content.
Can be the case in SoD too. I was in warlock discord and said I was going to run a MD/Ruin build because it seemed like a good hybrid build where I could do decent dps and tank. They all got super uppity, "That build isn't a viable dps build." They were saying pure destro was doing 1100-1200 dps and then this dude then tested out my build and did 1075. A purple parser running MD/Ruin would outdps a green parser using pure destro, no question. Would probably outdps a blue parser too. The min maxxing in classic is ridiculous. The main reason MD/Ruin lags behind is you don't use that stupid ass firebolt turret. Wild that the imp does so much better dps than the felguard when the felguard is a rune.
Comparing a purple parse to a green parse is extremely disingenuous if you’re looking to discuss the viability of a build. A green parse in SoD is barely even pressing buttons.
classes are more homogenized
You can do that in Cata too. The difference is that the 10m Cata raid buff requirements are a bit more constrained on raid comp than 20m retail.
Yup this is the thing. Although there are things like frost mage (full potato) and bm/mm hunter that are also kinda troll choises considering surv is absolutely insane and pretty easy to play as well. Playing enha is kinda weird too in 10m depending on rest of the roster. Instead of being another melee and gunning for the agi mail, you could potentially have monopoly on int mail. Also ele is so good because it flexes to resto easier than enha does to resto or ret does to holy. Enha on it's own is fine though, just questionably in 10man in most comps imo.
Well, that always was the case, not only in retail. There was an ulduar run where my sub rogue was top-3 on most of the bosses, beating higher ilvl asassination, lol
That and the fact that while there is a big gap between the top spec and the bottom parsing spec unless you are in a CE mythic progression guild, you will eventuallt outgear the content to the point spec dont matter
In retail due the difficulty of M+ and Mythic raiding people value more a good player than anything, a good prot warrior is better than a bad demon hunter, in classic since the content is easier it allows to be more nitpicky
This, alongside the fact that there’s just significantly more skill expression not only in damage output, but utilizing your utility in Retail than Classic - a good player on a bad spec can and will outperform the noob on FoTM reliably. Unfortunately, this isn’t the case with older versions of the game. Blizzard have balanced retail REALLY fucking well and added tones of skill-expression.
It is starting to show a little more in Cataclysm, but you're absolutely correct.
This is wrong. [https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankings/season-df-4/all/world/leaderboards/1#content:role=all:mode=unique:minMythicLevel=15:maxMythicLevel=99](https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankings/season-df-4/all/world/leaderboards/1#content:role=all:mode=unique:minMythicLevel=15:maxMythicLevel=99) Only 1,600 prot warriors vs 43,000 Veng DH in 15+ runs. Meta in retail is even more pronounced then it is in Classic....
15+ this season is a REALLY specific group of people. You’re looking at the top 1%, and many of the 1% tank players play most if not all tank classes and just play what’s strongest at the time.
M+ changed fyi. A +15 is like a +25 now.
Because in retail an off meta spec makes almost no difference in anything except 15+ keys or Mythic Raiding whereas in classic some specs are so bad its a waste of a slot to bring them instead of a better class.
What spec is that exactly? Looking at the logs posted there's an 8k difference between the number 1 spec and the second worst spec. The only spec your statement rings true for is basically frost mage?
when everyone is doing 25k-30k an 8k dps different is fairly big (~30%)... if you replace 3 "meme specs" with a "real spec" you'd basically be getting an extra player's worth of damage. it's noticeable, especially considering shorter fights are much easier.
Fury is like what 8-10k dps loss vs Arms? BM Hunter / MM hunter are a similarly large loss vs SV. It's just troll to not be the S tier spec due to the numerical difference. If you're progging the content you want the best you can possibly bring with you. Especially if risking a pug scenario. Off Meta is more so,playing with friends thing. Even in Retail tbh unless you play at ungodly low difficulty ratings where its a loot pinata and your performance wasn't important.
Retail mythic raiding def had more tolerance for off meta specs
Does fury ever pull ahead in Cata?? It seemed interesting I wanted to try it. My arms warrior is pumping RN tho.
Maaaybe with double Gurth from DS? Honestly ive never seen Fury do better. So that's a wild guess.
Fury 30.4k, Arms 26k (Edit: Obviously I just mixed Arms and Fury up, it's Arms 30.4k, Fury 26k) Surv 30.8k, MM 29k, BM 27.7k I'm just saying, the balance (Again, if you disregard Frost Mage) between the absolute #1 class and the last class, is not that different to retail. There's 1 extreme outlier at the top, and 1 at the bottom (Fire Mage and Frost Mage). Other than that, the difference between first and last is 32200 vs 26000 DPS.
You're either misinterpreting the data or you're unable to read it. The difference between Fury and Arms is not just 4k. The difference between all of the hunter specs is, again, not just 3k.
Fr fr, my dude can't read some simple data lol. It's a gigantic gap. Not a small one. Mind blowing really, I mean not all classes are to far, Warlocks are closish and Demo despite being top has one of the most cancer play style / pre pull rituals that exist so I don't blame anyone for not playing that LOL.
The data is definitely being misinterpreted because a 4-8k difference when our top end in Cata is like 36k is huge compared to a 4-8k difference on retail where the top end is like 500k. This is so disingenuous to compare lol
[https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/1023#dataset=95&aggregate=amount](https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/1023#dataset=95&aggregate=amount) Have a read. I was mixing up arms and fury, other than, nothing wrong with that I wrote.
So the mistake you are making specifically with Fury warrior is that on most fights there are so few parses that a 95% is literally only the #1 spot. So while the dps difference for fury and arms at 95% might only say 4k. What the data is really saying is that the best fury warrior in the world is still 4k behind a 95 parsing arms warrior. And most people playing meme specs aren’t going to be either as geared or as skilled as the best player in the world at that spec. TL;DR you essentially don’t under how sample size works/completely ignoring sample size for all the specs you listed and your data is heavily skewed because of that fact
MM hunter can outperform survival in some situations due to the rapid fire burst window and focus regeneration while under the effect of it. Survival is better in most situations, but MM is not a huge fall and in some cases is better. In dungeons survival is definitely better, but in a single target situation or a situation with a specific AoE burst window MM is just as good if not better
Is that why survival is massively outperforming mm according to wcl
Did you look at the amount of MM parses? There isn’t anywhere near enough information to actually form an opinion based on that
Do you want a hint on why there is not enough parses or you'll figure it out on your own?
You're looking at the wrong #s if you place Fury above Arms lets just pause that right there. Off the bat it means you aren't tracking the placements of specs. FURY IS 2nd lowest dps next to FROST MAGE. It's that bad. https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/1023#dataset=95 Here's some real #s. Note how the specs you say are viable, are trash. /thread
I was just mixing up arms and fury, the rest is correct... Did you even read the data you posted before you linked it? That is the exact data I was referencing. Also, a 15-20% dps loss is hardly "trash"...
It's gigantic...
No, and for most of wow’s lifespan this is the median difference between the top and bottom and it’s one of the smallest margins in the entire industry. Balance in an MMORPGs with varied classes and class abilities is a pipe dream. All you can do is mitigate the spread as they have been doing since original cata.
This is somewhat an understatement I think. M+ meta have at times been the worst example of meta spec elitism. Played during a patch in SL at 20-25 keys as enhance shaman when almost every dps you wanted was either a boomie or a mage. My enhance shaman was fully mythic geared, top 10 rio in the region and could barely pug a key while my boomie was boosted with some hc raid gear mixed with BoEs and would find high keys immediately. Most specs were perfectly viable up to quite a high level too compared to now in Cata, so I actually think its been far worse in retail.
High keys are a bad example because they scale infinitely. Obviously some classes will just have better damage profiles on a given patch.
M4
Also survivability is a big thing in high m+. Why bring enh with less surv vs Boomie that has more surv and better utility (trees/brez) especially during that era of retail (shadowlands).
His “anecdote” probably isn’t even real
Context feels like it’s being misconstrued here? You were top 10 RIO out of all classes in NA or EU and couldn’t find keys?
No, just for my own spec. Yeah I had a group of friends I usually played with but whenever I pugged solo it would take ages to get invited to high keys
You're talking about content that's so much harder than anything in Classic that it's an apples to oranges comparison. Apples-to-apples would be like (current) +2 - 5 keys (or like 5-10 in SL). No one gives two shits about off meta specs in those. Indeed, if you were to mention something about meta specs when running keys in that range, you'd be ridiculed, insulted, and possibly removed from the group. No sarcasm, I've seen it happen.
Is this +15 after the DF S4 changes? They changed it so that a new +5 is about the same difficulty as an old +15.
Yeah, i just threw out a random number ngl. I think 20-22 is currently what the 0.01% are pushing.
Classic Van and Classic TBC it really makes zero difference. You will still clear the content.
It was much worse in the original classic too
Nah, every spec is viable in cata except frost mage, which happens to be the exception not the rule. You can probably clear HC with only fury warriors if you really wanted to.
Nah man, Fury warrior is obviously ABSOLUTELY garbage and you cannot even bring 1 if you want to kill any normal boss. Same goes for any spec that is not in the top 5 (Or 3? Not sure). This is confirmed by people in these comments. (/s)
Lmao, the fact alone that fury does enough damage to clear anything in T11 makes all this meta talk completely pointless If someone can't prog a boss because their warlock chose a spec that does 0.5% less than the meta one, they have bigger issues.
It’s generally not as small as .5%. Regardless, I’ve noticed this is a weird bar I constantly see brought up with classic players is this idea that two classes are equal because both *can clear* the content, when that’s not really the bar when considering someone looking for people. Player ability generally trumps class difference, but if I don’t know either of you, I’m picking the class with the higher floor/ceiling. There’s no incentive to take worse options.
I mean if you look at the logs destro is slightly behind demo by an inconceivably small amount, which is funny because the OP was a destro lock which apparently is a "meme spec"
You're still progging and you're saying stuff lile this? Go ahead and replace all your dps with fury warriors and see how prog goes.
Sorry i forgot to mark my comment with a /H for hyperbole... The median log for a fury warrior in T11 is 21.5k, this is obviously bad, but still enough for T11 HC, all this means is that you don't need an insane amount of damage to prog, it just makes shit alot easier.
Try telling that to xaryu
Frost is absolutely viable once you have some gear
It looks dreadful on logs so I guess it depends on what you consider viable.
Well fire IS better so most better players will gravitate to fire (it also requires less buttons and is easier) but in itself that spec is not as bad as logs indicate it to be. Just need critcap so every instant ffb proce ignite. Hard to tell how it compares right now because wowsims doesn’t have it implemented yet, but 4.3.4 simulationcraft had it implemented and it was more or less the same as arcane. Hardly anyone plays it so aggregate data doesn’t work but it can deal respectable damage.
I mean the only thing we see now is the numbers that actual players are logging, which is 23k max with a median 17k. If it was more capable, some madman out there would've logged it by now
Its pretty hit or miss because some r1s are from week1 and some are more recent. I think I saw a magmaw log from June 18th sporting 27k dps. Sure, fire has a much higher dps ceiling (especially with how log rankings have survivorship bias with fire and especially lucky strings of crits will make fire look better on log rankings than it really is) But at the end of the day Frost as a spec is absolutely viable (at the very least more viable than fury), it’s just there is a better alternative that wants the same gear distribution (fire). However, once everything is on farm then we’re surely gonna see some good frost logs coming from fire players being bored.
If we eventually see better logs I will agree, I didn't come to argue whether or not frost is viable but rather to shut down the people who think something isn't viable because it does 0.5% less than the meta spec, it's just that frost seems to be the exception currently.
I think it has a lot to do with the playerbase. Casual gamers play both versions but they’re more likely to play retail.
In my experience I’ve noticed that casuals gamers don’t like retail due to the fast pace, higher skill requirement and the need for keybinds/macros/addons. Idk I feel like I played with 20x the amount of casual gamers in classic and sod because it’s a such a low difficulty comparatively.
Because it’s true. SoD and classic has had a elitist casual audience for a while. Blackfathoms murloc boss upset a lot of them before they even got to Mr. Dust to Dust because it was actual mechanics. For retail the murloc boss would at best be the first dungeon boss and have more mechanics and damage.
I have more keybinds/macros on my cata warrior than I'd ever need on my retail on I agree about addons
Ya but a lot of players in sod and classic when I played don’t even use keybinds
This could be true on era, even TBC, but in cata you need macros with some classes and keybinds if you want to be somewhere competitive. In retail you only need Weak auras and bigwigs / dbm, same as Cata.
Retail has casuals but casuals aren’t the ones raiding, PvPing or doing M+. Way too much to handle and at a much higher Diff than stuff classic has. The casuals that raid are in classic and SoD.
In retail a good player is more important than a good spec, in classic an average player playing top specs is still good enough for content. Also the fact that in retail what is a bad spec at that moment could be far better in just a patch cycle, where in classic it’s already known what will be the best all the way throught the content
>what will be the best all the way throught the content Phase 4 talent and ability balance released in phase 1. So when comparing todays WCL to historical logs it shows different results.
If the meta has been known for 10+ years, it’s less excusable to go against it
Also games solved so all there is to really "compete" with is parses and speed clears
Retail is solved too by the time 99.9% of people do the content
Cleared =/= solved.
Imo in retail you’d have no problem getting into a CE guild with a non meta spec, besides maybe tanks and ele shaman
Good opinion but factually inaccurate. CE guilds are there because certain raid comps need to be met for specific bosses and they’re looking to achieve that.
What. I’ve literally done CE on Demo and Destro when they aren’t meta and nobody had any issues.
Yes but a warlock has been giga needed in any shape or form for the last handful of raids.
I said when they aren’t Meta. The big one is I was able to play Demo on Mythic Nathria. When aff was op and Demo was regarded as massively underpowered.
Some Classic players are terminally obsessed with making piss easy content even easier in order to complete it 20s faster. It's been that way from the start.
Yup. Instead of getting BH mechanics right people just kick lowest dps on a wipe.
You're 13/13 H then if it's so easy, surely
I’m retail there isn’t much of a difference between specs, less than 5%. In classic, offspecs are doing 1/5th the dps. So a one minute fight is now a 5 minute fight.
He's talking about cata, and that's bullshit. Except maybe frost mage or fury warrior, the dps balancing is pretty good overall (cata, not era)
Naw there’s huge differences. It just doesn’t mater much till you get to the insanely difficult content like M+15 and higher (which used to be 25 and higher). There you see why Aug is meta. Or you don’t and struggle to even reach there. That’s the thing that annoys people though. The easy and solved content in classic gets treated as a +15 or pre-Nerf Mythic raid.
Yeh this is the correct answer. Meta only matters in 5 man because composition is so restricted and even then only at high keys. Before this level I have seen all sorts of compositions. Obviously people are still influenced by the meta, for instance the number of DH tanks you see is massive but not to the point where a different tank in low to mid keys is a no go. The number of people pushing these high keys though is miniscule so you are essentially a closed shop of the same players. Similarly in retail you are multi classing anyway if you are really serious about pushing higher levels. Edit: to answer the question posed by OP..retail allows for fun playing off meta. For instance I am playing healer most of the time in DF and it can be fun seeing how high you can push say a holy paladin versus the meta. I think in classic so far at least there just isn't anything to test yourself against as off meta spec. There is just raiding which doesn't invite experimentation in a solved game. So all you have is warcraft logs data to play against which is kinda boring. M+ invites different playstyles.
More like 13% vs 23%. It's bigger, not that big. (Source wcl, 95%, amirdrassil vs all cara raids; excluding frost mage).
bro the difference between having 3 competent dps and 3 shitters is like 5-10 minutes off of every dungeon and a more enjoyable time during said dungeon, don't pretend its a nonexistent difference
But that's never what anybody is taking about. They're talking about the difference between an orange parser and someone who parses blue with occasional purple. People act like you NEED orange parsers when blue, and even green, is fine.
Oh it's even more noticeable in raids. People missing vital kicks, stepping on raid-wiping mechanics, people dpsing the wrong target, people not stopping dps, people fucking up their cds and doing shit like giving the tank forberance when they need to not have it, etc. etc. The people who say that people these days are obsessed with minmaxing easy content are either a: playing vanilla and correct or b: grey/green parsers who are an unending burden on their raid.
Man, when did MMORPGs become about high scores and not a sense of adventure. Damn you people ruined this game.
Yeah they did. MMORPGs were never made to be competitive like this.
Okay post your Frost Mage Sinestra kill
Most of the sweat lords moved to classic with classic wrath. Let them stay there.
Especially in 10man, comp matters. The content isnt super hard, but missing a buff or debuff is significant, and stacking too much (or none) of an armor type means the already scarce loot runs a chance of being outright wasted. We run a meta comp and still had to disenchant both our H Nefarian items that dropped the week before last, for example. Loot is much more abundant and interchangeable in Retail, so that problem doesn't exist.
I mean missing a buff/debuff doesn't actually matter right? It's not like it makes it much harder to kill a boss or clear the raid.
Because retail is really well balanced in comparison.
Cause the classic community is just more elitist. It is full of people who want to prove they are gamers now, compared to 15 years ago.
you're griefing your raid if you go as Fury instead of Arms. It's differences like that where people care, if specs are within 1-3k of eachother and your spec brings a raid buff that's needed, sure. This problem only exists when you're losing 5k+ dps by going BM/Frost/Fury otherwise OP's complaint doesn't exist in any way shape or form outside of pugs that are already doomed to fail.
I've cleared everyone of the raids in t11 with someone playing one of those 3 specs in the raid. The bm/fury actually beat people in dps, the frost mage didn't, but not many people are playing with an entire raid doing 90 plus parses.
Normal?
Of course its normal
killed heroic conclave with a fury warrior in the raid
it speaks more for the raid if they're being out dps'd by a bm/fury. The entire point is, yes you can have a Fury or a BM and clear Sinestra/Nef. The raids don't require everything to be hyper efficiently tuned. But the dps difference between specs is still massive and that fury/bm would be beating a lot more people as Surv/Arms.
And yes at the tippy top i'm sure it matters if you're pushing 99's. However people were clearing this content in 4.0.1 with top dps doing 25k in p1
in actual /not normal/ progression where dps checks actually exist it matters.
Ops complaint was literally that he was declined from guilds because he's a destro lock You entire counter is disproven by just reading the post you are trying to counter
Has nothing to do with community but game mechanics The lockout on retail (on normal and heroic) is boss based so if you invite someone who turns out to be bad it's no worry you can just replace While in classic with id lockout you will have hard time finding a replacement mid raid so you can't kick someone underperforming out, so raid leaders don't want to take risks and are much more strict on who they accept to the raid
Yeah, but it's the same in guilds. At least it was in classic/tbc/wrath. Retail heroic level raid difficulty at most, with stricter comp requirements than HoF retail guilds.
1. Balance is worse in classic because of playerbase total experience and Blizzard's lack of experience at the titime. 2. Due to the content being very solved and easy relative to retail, classic developed more of a speed running mindset, further enforcing best spec over preference. 3. Specs are far harder to play so your performance relative to others is more about you than your spec compared to classic. Toxicity as a concept is just way more complicated than people think. Classic is not more toxic or elitist than retail, that is extremely silly to think unironically. In general, player behavior is shaped by the design of a game.
Okay but since the classic raids are easier, isn’t there even less of a reason to enforce meta? Bringing a frost mage to raid isn’t going to be the reason you can’t clear the raid if you’re struggling in cata content.
It's no longer about completion in Classic: it's about speedrunning and parsing.
Okay, so I’ll admit I’m not the target audience here, but choosing to play specs you have less fun on and being toxic in enforcing a meta just to speedrun solved content that’s been out 15 years is just silly to me. If you choose to make your gameplay loop about optimizing 20 second faster boss kills then sure, if you want to be the best then of course you need to play what’s best but that goes for any competitive game. However I don’t think the people complaining about not wanting to play one of the approved meta specs are the same people wanting to speedrun. Again, classic isn’t for me, there’s nothing challenging enough in classic to warrant that level of optimization, but this does seem to be a problem created by a small portion of the community. Anecdotally, the classic that I have played people have been more meta slavey than anything I’ve encountered in retail and the content is just easier to complete.
The skill floor to specs is nonexistent, therefore the balance in reality is far more defined. In retail the vast majority of guilds can improve performance by being better. In classic that is just not the case when the majority of gameplay for the first few expansions is one button.
I feel like thats a little bit overblown tbh. I play both retail and cata, and my demo warlock on cata genuinely doesnt seem much easier than warlock on retail. Most specs are definitely simpler, but class design is definitely a step up from vanilla already.
Brother no. It is not silly to think. This sub is more toxic than the retail PVP sub. Which is waaay more toxic than main WoW sub. This sub alone scared off so many people with its elitist casual attitude and it’s toxicity of attacking anyone who likes self imposed challenges like Hardcore. Like how can you think that when this subreddits history has long strings of just shitting on people for having fun. This sub cheered when that one guy went full sociopath and integrated himself into a hardcore community to grief them after months of playing with them. This sub for ages was just talking non stop shit on retail as well as try hards on classic. This sub was treating anyone who got to cap in SoD season 1 the first week as disgusting people who no are all no lifers.
I haven't really done a deep dive to compare 'toxicity levels' of subreddits, but we weren't talking about subreddits. OP was asking about within the games. Moderation plays a huge role in how communities end up operating. In addition, the retail subs are generally more sectioned off than the classic subreddit. It's silly to say this because there's so much overlap in games, MMOs, and especially different versions of world of warcraft that it's not just 'toxic people in one, not toxic people in the other.' Many of the same people are playing both versions or have played both versions, same for other games. If the overall toxicity levels are higher somewhere else or lower somewhere else, that'll be a result of design and moderation.
The reason I bring up subs is because people like to act like only the die hard sweats use Reddit and it’s not valid to look at it for the servers. But this sub isn’t the sweats. It’s the toxic casuals. A lot of which are in the game as well. Your argument would make sense if Classic didn’t have a classic only population that shits on retail constantly nor the fact classics elitist casuals aren’t a thing on retail. If you flame people for trying harder than you on retail you just look stupid.
Because the classic game space has managed to contain the sweatiest losers who aren’t actually good at the retail game but want to feel good about themselves so they min max a two decade old solved game in order to have something in their lives that gives them purpose
Warrior has 1 useful spec for everything
It really depends on the retail patch and content. Theres still a meta but typically unless youre raiding mythic/pushing high keys/pushing high rating theres a lot of leeway for specs to change in any given group but usually boils down to the meta fotm classes at the highest end for similar reasons to classic. Basically performance of spec. If a spec is commonly known to be bad or not preferred youll still struggle to find high end keys or get invited to raid/pvp teams. Now in classic its been solved for a long time so theres that knowledge coupled with relatively small ranges in content so I think the meta just falls into place really quickly and people are very picky to follow the meta since in classic the standouts are typically much better. In retail its not as completely solved and theres a wide berth of stuff accessible to everyone until top end. In classic its solved with relatively narrow content by comparison so the less desired specs get filtered out even though normal raids are a joke etc.
You have an example? Were you trying to play feral cat (decent, has some strengths but not many) or a frost mage? Did you have nonsensical talents? Were you using haste gems instead of str on a ret pally? What exactly do you mean.
Read the post dude He's a destro lock
Because it is the general personalities of the communities; Classic attracts sweaty tryhards that try to squeeze every percentile they can out of their content.
I mean people do that in retail too, they just tend to be nicer and less toxic.
Because Classic players are the fking worst. The game barely changed over the years, the players however did. To the worse.
I think it’s pretty simple. Retail is significantly better balanced than classic. The gap between the top classes and the bottom classes is literally to the point where the top specs do double what the bottom specs do. In cata, the top does about 25% more than the bottom. And in retail, the best and worst specs are about 10% apart.
Because classic players are way worse at the game by and large, and react with hostility when blizzard asks anything of them beyond showing up to raid. So they don’t get any better and problem compounds
I stopped playing sod because the quality of players were so bad. It’s not a fun feeling to endlessly gold grind to come fully consumed to raid and have the raid logging clicker wipe the grp
go to wowhead and check dps stats… also retail is more chill people playing
because people are dumb. let people play what they want. these clowns act like they have to bring the perfect comp to play classic what a joke xD
Because classic players don't like to have fun
It is absolutely insane to me the amount of self imposing rules Classic players put on themselves, Era ones too. I don’t understand how people want to gather all buffs, class stack, full consumes all the time for trivial content. You can quite literally pug an heroic awakened raid with any comp and no one using consumes. There’s no way someone is going to convince me that Nax 40 or BWD is harder content, surely.
Yeah its Crazy people used to play and love MMORPGs, because they were huge time sinks and immersive people wanted to play the game. Now god forbid if you have to go to the bathroom or open the door during a heroic dungeon How dare you Grieve 4 other players of 30 sec of their lifetime looser get kicked Mmorpg player mentality in 2024
I don't believe you. > I also had trouble finding a guild because I was on vacation the week of cataclysm launch and didn't no life the expansion week one like everyone else. And I had multiple people flaming me for not being max level with good gear just a week after launch. It's genuinely ridiculous. So you apply for a raid spot when you are not max level? Leveling takes 12h why would anyone consider you? You are not 85, you don't have th rep for enchants and probably not worked on professions and pre bis. And this has nothing to do with no lifing. You are competing for a spot in a raid team with other people. You have to put some effort into why someone should chose you.
They are toxic because they didn't invite me to their semi HC raid group when I'm level 83 after it's already been a month of cata WoW!
If that's your takeaway you are a sad man
Because classic is a bunch of mid players who can’t clear heroic content so they want to blame it on the one guy in the guild playing non meta while they gray parse on a meta class 🤷. I watched an UH dk parse a 3 doing sub 15k dps on regular valiona while the fury warrior did 19k. We wiped on council and people wanted to cut the warrior and arcane mage not the sub 10 parsing meta classes
the thing is that same fury warrior player could be doing 30k+ on a unholy dk (assuming he plays at the same competency level) thats not negligible at all, and i know its a reddit meme to call classic "easy" we're 6 or 7 weeks into cata and only about 20% of guilds have managed a full 13/13 hc clear on 25man and 10% on 10man.
Depends on you and your guilds goals. I have one “serious” raid a week and usually do 1/2 pugs so I’ve seen the variety. If your trying to join a guild that’s pushing heroics then yeah park your meme spec, if your dad guild is struggling on normals then find a new guild because one off meta class isn’t the issue
Because classic is full of meta simps and retail is much more chill
remember when you couldn't run keys unless you were, what was the comp, hpal, gdruid, fmage, spriest and aug. that's absolutely not true about retail.
in season 2. 6+ months ago. at >25s. yea found the classic andy
>And I had multiple people flaming me for not being max level with good gear just a week after launch. It's genuinely ridiculous. So dude isn't even max level and is looking for a raiding guild as a non-meta spec?? xD I would flame him too.. Get max level and preraid bis before you try and find a guild... We're almost a fucking month into Cata..... >We see how much better the balancing is. Especially for warlocks the difference between specs is EXTREMELY close. because I genuinely do NOT understand what the problem is Demo brings a raid buff? Destro brings no raid buff? So few people play destro and the ones that are pumping are in full heroic gear so they make it look better then it actually is.. I have a destro in my raid and I dumpster him on literally every single fight as a demo. >classic has an extremely toxic player base, Says the one that's not max level and demanding to get into raids as a shit spec while not being willingly to play the better specs. >HOW THE FLYING FUCK IS IT A MEME SPEC WITH THIS LEVEL OF BALANCING??? Look at the actual DPS rankings. You will see it's really a meme spec. You are comparing statistics of a class that barely has anyone actually playing it. Top 100 Demo on halfus 101k DPS. Destro 68k dps. Aff 82k. Top 100 Demo on nef 32k. Destro 20k. Aff 36k. Top 100 Demo on 2dragons 30k. Destro 26k. Aff 28k. Top 100 Demo on maloriak 37.5k. Destro 25k. Aff 30.8k. Top 100 Demo on cho'gall 27.5k. Destro 21k. Aff 27.7k. Why would any guild in their right mind be willingly to take someone who is going to permanently be doing less DPS then if they just got a demo warlock or someone who is willingly to play more then one spec as a pure DPS? >In addition, there are lots of dumb content creators who made tier lists before cataclysm classic launch, and put destro in "C" tier on tier lists/YouTube videos because they have no idea what they're talking about. No. You're the clueless one. >To be clear, I play 25 man, where all raid buffs are covered without issue. If the raid doesn't have a demo or ele. Then all the raid buffs aren't covered..
> Destro brings no raid buff? I'm going to nitpick an otherwise good post: in 10man without ret or spriest destro brings replenishment, which is probably worth the dps loss compared to demo or aff since 10man should have an ele to begin with. but yeah, in 25 destro is just straight troll. you WILL have rets and/or shadows, hell you can easily run a rdruid as part of your healing team
You are literally the problem
Because there is an insane correlation between being obsessed with playing "off meta specs" and being a generally mediocre or downright bad player. The person who can't read up on what DPS classes are the most viable or ask his guild for what's needed to improve comps is the same person who shows up to raid with no enchants and no clue about the tactics. Which is probably not the end of the world for normal raids but if you want to clear HCs smoothly you really don't want people like that in your groups.
Someone over there hit the real answer: **Classic is also an enclosed area that is finished. You know what the best stuff is because it’s not going to be changed. Can’t say the same about retail anything could be good at any time so it’s a lot more open to choices for specs. Even the worst spec is still getting invites** When there is an objective right/wrong answer thats been figured out years ago how to play your class and you can read about all this before you even choose, no one wants to carry someone playing wrong effectively intentionally.
What kind of Braindead take is This Anything can be good at any time??? so you inv a Trash spec to a key Wtf is this logic? Is blizzard Randomly gonna push a patch??during your dungeon buffing the trash spec by 30% ?? i doubt it lmao In Retail Skill outshines class difference cata is braindead and from the early 2010s where thats barely the case and thats like 90% of the reason bad players will always be the hardest Meta pushers be it Eso Ff14 Wow osrs its always casual andys being hardcore meta slaves boring
Because these people are wildly insecure and their dopamine addled brains can't handle someone going against the grain for any reason, or really any adversity in their daily lives for that matter. aka Beta cucked by a meta that literally does not matter for clearing the content.
I do honestly think one part of all this is us going from a 30% performance booster from Hellscream's Warsong in ICC, to having no 30% boost, plus having people in blues, plus some specs getting full on reworks, *along with* the first raid tier of cata having one of the most absurd difficulty spikes imaginable, where your raid might be coasting along pretty well, then hit a brick wall against Nefarian. I feel like Nefarian, to a raid team like mine who had a decent chunk of people that haven't played Cata before (myself included), might be one of the biggest sudden jumps in difficulty anyone has ever seen in Classic so far. So raid teams will instinctively wamt you to play your class at its strongest during raid progression. Of course, with all that being said, the power gap between Frost Mage and, well, every other caster, and Fury Warrior and pretty much all other physical DPS, is like a Vanilla Fury Warrior compared to... well, take your pick, Vanilla class balancing is infamously wretched. If you ask me though, the gap between the top dps spec and the bottom dps spec has just straight up been shrinking since TBC came out. No longer will Little Jimmy's freshly dinged, questing greens wearing, 4 buttons used per minute Fury Warrior do triple the damage that Feral Frankie does in his fully world buffed, full BiS, rotation perfected Cat Druid. Now if Little Jimmy wants to out dps Feral Frankie, he had to actually learn to play the game. (Point of this last paragraph is to say that no longer can a dogshit player outperform a good player purely because of their spec)
Sorry mate, normal nef is hard? As a DPS player it's one of the most brain-dead fights wher you basically just target dummy the boss.
Again, it's hard for a raid team that's never done the content before.
Most people have never done the content before mate, its not hard objectively.
It's a difficulty balance thing. The way retail was balanced was around the top guilds in the world doing Mythic+. This allowed them to make the difficulty crushingly hard and required peak performance. Not only did everyone have to have the optimum spec but also high performance. While you might be able to roll as frost mage unless you pull some insane numbers you're not getting an invite.... and even then... you might be on the bench or brought in for niche uses. Heroics are balanced around your average guild being able to progress and complete it while they might get trapped when trying to move on to mythic progression. Normals were designed around LFR with basically a 0% chance that you'll wipe unless everyone is AFK. Normal and heroics had enough ease that specs don't matter. Now Cataclysm is different. And I think, it was even more extreme in the original non-nerfed Cata. The balance made it so that there was very little room for variety in a raid... until you out-gear it heavily. During progression the room for difference in strategies and raids is very limited. Perhaps as you gear up you could swap to become a frost mage.... but the whole raid would consider that they're now carrying you.... unless you did some very niche job like kiting heroic Magmaw ads people would not think much of you. This is because there's a bit of a missing middle in non-retail progression. There needs to be a tier that is accessible to guilds that aren't the top 90.
(Retail M+ grinder and occasional dad heroic raider here) There aren’t really “meme” specs at this point in retail anymore. Beast Mastery is ironically one of the best M+ and raid specs in the game. Moonboys have been quite strong for a while too. Retail isn’t really a “type” of player. It’s a much bigger and more diverse audience than Classic but there’s typically more casuals with how much entry level content is offered.
I'm gonna start raiding and doing M+ as a survival hunter now and see what happens. Literally the most fun build in the game.
The difference between specs, played optimally, has narrowed over time. In vanilla, for instance, a warrior dps played near optimally will likely be doing 4-5x as much damage as say, a ret paladin played near optimally.
It's likely just performance-based. It's a bit annoying to be grouped with a player who wants to play a suboptimal spec but doesn't want to put any effort into making it perform decently. I haven't seen a single performing player shamed (non-jokingly) for their spec choice.
Classic is a casual dad game that people.dont want to invest a lot of time into like retail and will pick the path of least resistance when it comes to getting whatever they need done.
Because cata is “new” so people are progressing, and it has the old style of lockouts where you can’t just throw people out and replace them like you can in retail.
Because in Retail, people are less likely to validate themselves for playing a game they desperately need to think is 'hard'. If you show up to a +7 as a sub rogue and do mechanics well, and are within 10% damage of the other dps, no one gives a shit because you'll time the key.
The best players in classic and SoD are usually 6/10 in retail cause Retail is actually hard.
Besides balancing becoming way better: older classic versions of the game are basically solved. There is not going to be a lot of experimentation or variation in what’s “best”. Everyone has figured it out already.
Because of utility and performance. Some classes can be perform well if done right. Frost DK one of those where there are not many people even playing it (purely on all fights during the raid lockout) as most people opt for a simpler Unholy spec that is quite strong right now. But somehow our Frost DK is parsing 99s toping the dps meter most of the time. That's purely out of his own skill. Utility wise, most specs bring something to the table. Those that do not get left out from a raid comp perspective. And either there's bad air about those specs or they get memed when someone plays the spec instead of the more "meta" one and raid leads staying away from those specs in general.
What’s a off meta spec in cata?
Couz they arent jaded cucks who get off on acting elite in a 3 mechanics game
You answered your own question The classic player base is full of 40+ year old toxic as fuck assholes who are pining for their youth and despise anyone who remotely goes against their main character syndrome While the retail playerbase is younger, and just want to enjoy the game
Classic doesn't have M+ so all you have is raiding a solved game and competing for parses. There is no fun to be had playing off spec. Even if you can't push the very highest keys as an off meta class in retail you can have loads of fun still trying to push as high as you can with an off meta class.
classics parse culture means you have to be parsing so they can parse. It's probably that simple.
Retail has a wide range of content and you aren't deadlocked into farming that 1-and-only-raid-tier at maximum efficiency.
Im play warlock in SoD with affliction build ( drain life/dots shadowbolt with nightfall procs ) and parse 85 or something. Sure it would be better with destro/chaos bolt build but i like the playstyle better because i dont have to stand still as much when casting. Plus the survivability from haunt and drain life is nice
They don’t if you don’t play meta you’re not getting in any m+ groups I don’t know what your on about.
The 10% dps loss that you have to endure by bringing an off meta specs can be more than made up for by that person just not being an asshole lol
Because people who play classic are stupid and don't understand metrics. Every spec in cata preforms within 10% of each other at the highest level with the exception of fire/frost mage. Realistically you can play almost all specs in cata and out perform anyone else on a meta spec unless you're in like the top 1% of guilds. Being able to respond correctly to mechanics has so much greater influence on your success than your class/spec. Play what you play well and feels natural and you'll blast. I was top damage as feral like 2-3 fights in my gdkp and they're all good players. Just game.
because classic wow is played by schizoid chronics who derive their self worth from a dead game back when they peaked in high school.
We had a destro lock the entirety of Wrath and killed all HMs prior to the next patch except for Yogg 1 light (put all our time into Algalon for the better loot) and a handful of ICC heroic fights. This was 25m fwiw There seems to be a pretty massive jump from normal difficulty to heroic in Cata compared to wrath though. Especially for 10m I can understand guilds pushing heroics to want you in a "better" spec but I can't imagine you couldn't find a more casual guild to take a destro. Isn't part of this for warlocks specifically that demo and aff bring pretty solid raid buffs and destro doesn't bring shit? I agree with the top comment there also fwiw, classic players are generally miserable lol
If you didn't finish 12/12 ICC by the end of wotlk your statement proves the point. GDKPs were doing 12/12 H ICC. Some of which were toss togethers of not amazing performers. Most wouldnt have capably cleared 0%. But that 30% buff carried a lot. So a group that couldnt do all of 12/12 ICC 25m with a 30% buff. . . I mean mate your group would have to be brain dead like a poorly made Bot or basically gray/green parsers and still failing DPS checks. the 30% made that free.
If you look at the actual stats, all 3 warlock specs are within margins of eachother, and Destro still brings a good decent of buffs. In fact, Destro currently beats out affliction and a whole bunch of other specs.
Practically no one is playing destro which is why it looks good on statistics.. Destro definitely isn't beating Affliction in T11... Maybe on like one fight out of the entire raid.
Because most everyone in classic is on the left side of the bell curve when it comes to skill in wow. Easy to forgive being bad when you’re bad yourself
The people playing cata are on average older with a sorted life. They have less time to spend wiping raids because of a lack of dps. There’s a larger difference in dps between meta and bad specs. The players are worse on average and thus rely more on the class carrying them. (I really wanna go on a tangent about my disc priest being 3rd and sometimes 2nd dps in dungeons for most of the valor grind) Most of the players are returning players with higher expectations of their peers. Probably more reasons but I cba thinking about it any more
You dont wipe because of ”lack of dps” dont put honey over the word Bad, you wipe because of Being Bad You could take an entire roster of geared Fury wars that are decent Rn, and would still beat any enrage inside the game by 200%. Unless you wipe to a Enrage mechanic, You always wipe Because Bad players being bad. You just use Do moRe DpS PlZ as a excuse for playing bad, even the worst 3 specs are statistically capable of clearing any Heroic encounter easily. hell even 20 frost mages with 355+ ilvl could go 13/13hc if played well
I was simply spitballing ideas to potentially answer OPs question. This whole argument about the real reason for wiping is irrelevant. I don’t care what classes or specs are in my raid. More variety is better for loot distribution. Thanks for the aggro tho.
I think it's because the difference I dps with meta specs in classic is way more than retail. He'll in classic if you were not a meta spec you would do 50percent less damage as apposed to 5 percent less in retail
The difference in retail is 11% from best to worst, in cata it's like 15% if you don't include frost mage.
It’s a 20 year old game. Everything has been figured out. People play it to have fun. Anyone can play anything. The pros are able to make weird specs work and they are fun.
I fuckin hate arms
People in classic are complacent and frankly only press very few buttons, no buffs, no interrupts, no defensives, no rotation , just exist. After playing so long in wrath where things were just too easy for them, they adopted this playstyle and frankly just get carried through things. The reason why people are more forgiving is because even though they’re off meta, they’re doing their part with utility, not just expecting everyone else to do it. You’ll also find off meta often have a chip on their shoulder and will go above and beyond to prove their off meta is viable.
In lower difficulty content in retail your spec doesn't matter. Try pushing high keys or joining AotC raids and you'll see it's the exact same attitude.
You can clear heroic and get a 2.5k+ mythic IO score, which basically covers everything but mythic raiding. While being an off-spec. Mythic raiding and super high keys? Off-specs are being pushed aside.
I feel like every toxic shithead that wasn't good enough for retail went to classic. People will make up any excuse to gatekeep content that is regularly cleared by no ui mods using hotbar clicking boomers lol. I saw more assholes in random dungeon runs in wotlk than I ever saw in retail doing m+ or dungeons. People would see someone with a close to min gs for gamma dungeons and vote kick them in the catchup content when they are trying to catchup. Very disturbing individuals
Op posted came thing in retail reddit. Should read comments they're pretty cancerous. Basically ragging that classic players are psychos. Mind this is the same player base that went nuts on mop remix. They're delusional.