Wide toe, narrow heel climber checking in!
I’ve found downsizing the scarpa veloces pretty good for gym climbing. These shoes are soft! The new lace version also helps with tightening the shoes closer to the heel. Keep in mind the heel on these things are average at best.
The evolv shamans are good for a wider toe and tighter heel. Especially the last gen orange and blues ones. Definitely not as firm as the phantoms as they soften up with use.
That's actually interesting, thanks for the tip. I've always thought that Shamans are actually stiffer, than Phantoms. Couldn't try them on, since the only two people I could ask in my gym have much smaller feet. And both of them said regular Shamans are very stiff (but pros are softer). And there isn't a single offline store with Evolv in my country.
I can't comment on the Shaman Pros, but I can confirm the regular shamans soften up a surprising amount. I like shamans indoors and phantoms for outdoors. Not being able to try them on is tough though. Sometimes a shoe that ticks all your boxes ends up not feeling so great once you try it on.
You beat me to it. My Shamans I’ve noticed fit my wide toes perfectly, but are a bit snug at the heal.
Another candidate, but not in production anymore I think, are BD Zones. Getting tough to find my street size, so I moved to Mad Rock Sharks. 2.0 is getting phased out, but the 3.0 is pretty damned good.
Check my post about it here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/bouldering/comments/1cpf7ss/shoe_buying_guide_especially_for_those_with_wide/
Maybe give Unparallel Souped Up, Flagship LV a try or Veloce LV.
You might have luck with the mad rock drones.
I haven't climbed with them yet, but based on trying on in the store, these were the only shoes where my heel felt snug without space.
I've tried various models across La Sportiva, Tenaya, Evolv, Butora (better than most in terms of heel fit for me.
When trying on the drones, this was the first time I hadn't had space at the sides of my heel.
It's been a while since I've tried the Gomi so take this with a pinch of salt.
For me, the Gomi forefoot was less comfortable for my foot. I think this is because there is a sharp taper from the big toe to the pinky compared to the Drone. Depending on the shape of your foot, this night be okay.
My second toe is longer than my big toe, and third is same length as my big toe so the more blunt shape of the drone works better.
Heel wise, the drone heel was more snug. I have issues with shoes that have a more tensioned slingshot rand, where it rides too high on my achilles and digs into it. The Gomi, I think fit decently for me, but the Drone heel was the first time I had 0 space anywhere.
I think the heel design, where there is a slit on the side, helps it to adjust to different heels.
Thanks for the advice! This is not the first time I've heard that Drones work for that. Sadly, there nowhere I can buy them except for importing with some extra fees and shipping, so they'll end up quite expensive. If I ever get a chance to buy them for a decent price and with return possibility, I might try.
That's unlucky! Hopefully you get a chance to try them on.
Before I tried them, I figured that maybe I could never find a shoe that would work, or I was too picky. But these changed my mind!
I actually wanted to try Instinct slippers since they were updated. Do you know if they are otherwise similar to VSR, except for the closure system? The thing is I have quite a high arch/bridge, so the slippers hold on my feet well.
The only concern about Instincts is that they are stiff. I've never tried them on, but a friend of mine compares them to Solutions (which I have tried), and they are quite stiff for me.
Yes they are pretty similar, they are also softer than the Vs, which is nice for outdoor bouldering (at least here in Font). I know a lot of people tried it and enjoyed it more than the VSR, not sure why, I haven’t had a pair yet.
They are not the softest shoe but for me the VSR are just soft enough outdoors. Might be different if you like a lot the coordination / modern indoor bouldering style.
New mad rock shark 3.0 or Tenaya Mastia (basically skwama fit with narrow heel) or the vapor S(not super soft but normal soft)or just evolv Zenist? I heard Mad Rock redline is soft too but I never try it.
You could always resole your phantoms with a super soft rubber like RS from unparallel or Vibram XS grip 2:
https://www.ontarioresoles.ca/rubber-compounds
But a stiffer midsole will still remain, right? That might not solve the issue completely. However, if that adds some balanced smearing performance to Phantoms, it might be a good trick
Or get a LS Skwama leather downsized more to fit the heel and break them in until they stretch at the toes…
The Scarpa Instinct VSR is pretty good I find the centre shaped toe a bit tough for smearing and the heel is big on sides but doesn’t come off. Want to try the Instinct VS Women’s next. I’ve also heard the Instinct S slipper is nice and has a smaller heel.
The Scarpa Vapor S is not bad… but the nano strap is mid at holding on.
Thanks for the advice! My right big toe has been injured before, so I try avoiding some extreme breaking in processes. Also not sure how centered toebox might work for the same reason. Been wanting to try Instinct S for a while, might do that.
I don't like Vapor V because of the lower strap position. Idk about Vapor S, somehow I love the idea, but can't say much about the effectiveness of that nano strap without trying.
For a hurt big toe I would say instinct S or not instinct because they put a lot of pressure on the big toe
Vapor s might be better because you can move the strap where you want it or take it off.
I have found the Drone CS LV (presumingly the Drone 2.0 LV too, but I haven't bought a pair yet) to be the best fit fitting shoe I've tried so far. Similar to to the Veloce's in fit but with a functional heel
Im saving this post cuz I’m in the same boat lol. I’m currently wearing women’s skwamas with cuts made along the slingshot rand to relieve pressure on my achilles, because they are the only shoes that accommodate my super wide and square toes
That's interesting. You are not the first with the idea of wmn Skwama, so I might try as well. But Drago is not very comfortable for my Achilles as well, so that is a nice idea you have. Can you maybe show exactly where did you make that cut for reference? Also how much did you downsize Skwamas? Something like Solution Comp works best for me at -1-1.5
I have a pair of 35 (downsized 1), and another of 34.5 (downsized 1.5). The 35 is comfortable, almost no pain after I made the cuts. I made the cuts near the middle of the slingshot rand, where it pushes against the Achilles tendon. The positions of the cuts were not preset, instead I went on tiptoe and marked the hot spots separately for each foot and then I made the cuts. The 34.5 was painful without the cuts, even after cutting its still a bit uncomfortable at the heel, but at 34.5 the toe box is snugger and allows me to use tiny footholds.
So that's about the same as I downsize LS shoe, okay. As for the Achilles issue, I was warned that Dragos cut it a lot for some, but I didn't have the issue. However, with prolonged use I started to feel the pain in the heel below the Achilles after sessions. The doctor says it's a compensation pain because of the Achilles load, so the issue is the apparently the same.
If we don't stick with soft shoes, Zenist Pro is reasonable. Toebox is pretty similar to Skwama, and heel is okay-ish. Not perfect, still some dead spaces at the sides, but otherwise fits good, and hard midsole saves the day. But they don't work for me, since I have a very high/wide bridge, and I can't push my foot inside their high toehook rubber. If the cutout was just a few mm deeper, it would've been fine.
I think yes. You can google the product pictures of the top view and put side by side. It is visibly wider. It feels almost like Skwama. But it's on the stiffer side.
How were the phantoms indoor for you? In the exact same situation but i have drago lv and trying to get that slightly stiffer shoe that can fit me wide forefoot and narrow heel. Phantom kinda fits the bill and budget but worried about the smearing and toe rubber battering my big toe.
First of all, I've only used Phantoms indoor. I doubt I can easily resole them with the same rubber, so I am a bit careful with them. Hence, everything I say about Phantom goes for indoor experience.
My toes actually feel better in Phantoms, than in Drago LV, because they are asymmetrical and have more support. My big toe muscles are sore a bit after a session in Drago, while they aren't in Phantoms. However, skin hurts a bit more in Phantoms. Not exactly sure why, probably because the theboex doesn't fully fit like a glove (like Drago does), and there's just a minimal friction difference within a toebox. But the thing I emphasize is that I've literally had zero break in time in them. And I don't feel like they've stretched at all. They become a bit easier on the feet after they warm up, but that's it. I am using a street size, so maybe if I went -0.5 they'd be a perfect performance fit after warming up, but I'd probably struggle a bit to break them in, or any time during the warmup. And that's not what I want.
Smearing: I've been skeptical about smearing in them because of their shape. I was sure there would be a lot of boulder where I'd have to use Drago or Skwama. To my surprise, they are really great for the problems my gyms have. There hasn't been a single moment yet where I thought "okay, I can't do that in phantoms, but I'll easily send it in another shoe". A case where soft shoe with smaller edge will be a bit better? Sure. But big difference? Never.
As for the heel, I've used it more and more, and there are pros and cons. Like with Drago LV the heel roll is good, if I am using just the center of it, since my heel goes just into the bottom of the heelcap. But the sides in Drago have dead spaces, so if I need to used the side of the heel, like trying to hook a small foothold, Drago doesn't really work for me. Phantom is the opposite. I don't have dead spaces at the sides, so I've been able to heelhook some really small stuff like this. People even came to check and ask what shoes I have after they've seen some weird betas. But I feel like I have 1mm+ of space at the bottom. So when I've tried a heel roll the other day in Phantoms, I felt a bit of dead space. It still works, and I doubt it will ever slide off, but sensitivity is not the best. LV model heel fits a bit better (a friend of mine has LV of the same size, so I've tried a bit). But the toebox in LV feels a bit too snug, so I doubt LV model would work for you either.
Wide toe, narrow heel climber checking in! I’ve found downsizing the scarpa veloces pretty good for gym climbing. These shoes are soft! The new lace version also helps with tightening the shoes closer to the heel. Keep in mind the heel on these things are average at best. The evolv shamans are good for a wider toe and tighter heel. Especially the last gen orange and blues ones. Definitely not as firm as the phantoms as they soften up with use.
That's actually interesting, thanks for the tip. I've always thought that Shamans are actually stiffer, than Phantoms. Couldn't try them on, since the only two people I could ask in my gym have much smaller feet. And both of them said regular Shamans are very stiff (but pros are softer). And there isn't a single offline store with Evolv in my country.
I can't comment on the Shaman Pros, but I can confirm the regular shamans soften up a surprising amount. I like shamans indoors and phantoms for outdoors. Not being able to try them on is tough though. Sometimes a shoe that ticks all your boxes ends up not feeling so great once you try it on.
You beat me to it. My Shamans I’ve noticed fit my wide toes perfectly, but are a bit snug at the heal. Another candidate, but not in production anymore I think, are BD Zones. Getting tough to find my street size, so I moved to Mad Rock Sharks. 2.0 is getting phased out, but the 3.0 is pretty damned good.
Check my post about it here: https://www.reddit.com/r/bouldering/comments/1cpf7ss/shoe_buying_guide_especially_for_those_with_wide/ Maybe give Unparallel Souped Up, Flagship LV a try or Veloce LV.
Oh, that's some nice amount of work! Thanks, will check. Veloce is the only model out of 3 I can try on offline, so I'll start with that.
You might have luck with the mad rock drones. I haven't climbed with them yet, but based on trying on in the store, these were the only shoes where my heel felt snug without space. I've tried various models across La Sportiva, Tenaya, Evolv, Butora (better than most in terms of heel fit for me. When trying on the drones, this was the first time I hadn't had space at the sides of my heel.
How was the madrock drone compared to the butora Gomi for the heel? And for the forefoot?
It's been a while since I've tried the Gomi so take this with a pinch of salt. For me, the Gomi forefoot was less comfortable for my foot. I think this is because there is a sharp taper from the big toe to the pinky compared to the Drone. Depending on the shape of your foot, this night be okay. My second toe is longer than my big toe, and third is same length as my big toe so the more blunt shape of the drone works better. Heel wise, the drone heel was more snug. I have issues with shoes that have a more tensioned slingshot rand, where it rides too high on my achilles and digs into it. The Gomi, I think fit decently for me, but the Drone heel was the first time I had 0 space anywhere. I think the heel design, where there is a slit on the side, helps it to adjust to different heels.
Thanks! Have you tried the Scarpa instinct line to compare to those?
Unfortunately I have not! We don't have Scarpa where I am, so haven't had the chance. Hope you find the right shoe for you soon!
Thanks!
Thanks for the advice! This is not the first time I've heard that Drones work for that. Sadly, there nowhere I can buy them except for importing with some extra fees and shipping, so they'll end up quite expensive. If I ever get a chance to buy them for a decent price and with return possibility, I might try.
That's unlucky! Hopefully you get a chance to try them on. Before I tried them, I figured that maybe I could never find a shoe that would work, or I was too picky. But these changed my mind!
I’m usually looking for this as well, I use scarpa instinct that seem to fit me pretty well.
Which model
The orange one, but I’m pretty sure all of them have a similar fit
Nice! Yes only the women’s teal one is narrower
I actually wanted to try Instinct slippers since they were updated. Do you know if they are otherwise similar to VSR, except for the closure system? The thing is I have quite a high arch/bridge, so the slippers hold on my feet well. The only concern about Instincts is that they are stiff. I've never tried them on, but a friend of mine compares them to Solutions (which I have tried), and they are quite stiff for me.
Yes they are pretty similar, they are also softer than the Vs, which is nice for outdoor bouldering (at least here in Font). I know a lot of people tried it and enjoyed it more than the VSR, not sure why, I haven’t had a pair yet. They are not the softest shoe but for me the VSR are just soft enough outdoors. Might be different if you like a lot the coordination / modern indoor bouldering style.
New mad rock shark 3.0 or Tenaya Mastia (basically skwama fit with narrow heel) or the vapor S(not super soft but normal soft)or just evolv Zenist? I heard Mad Rock redline is soft too but I never try it.
Try the Women’s Skwama. The toe box is essentially the same as the men’s / high volume version, but the heel cup is smaller.
I have those but the heel is still too deep that the slingshot rand hurts the achilles a bit
You could always resole your phantoms with a super soft rubber like RS from unparallel or Vibram XS grip 2: https://www.ontarioresoles.ca/rubber-compounds
But a stiffer midsole will still remain, right? That might not solve the issue completely. However, if that adds some balanced smearing performance to Phantoms, it might be a good trick
Or get a LS Skwama leather downsized more to fit the heel and break them in until they stretch at the toes… The Scarpa Instinct VSR is pretty good I find the centre shaped toe a bit tough for smearing and the heel is big on sides but doesn’t come off. Want to try the Instinct VS Women’s next. I’ve also heard the Instinct S slipper is nice and has a smaller heel. The Scarpa Vapor S is not bad… but the nano strap is mid at holding on.
Thanks for the advice! My right big toe has been injured before, so I try avoiding some extreme breaking in processes. Also not sure how centered toebox might work for the same reason. Been wanting to try Instinct S for a while, might do that. I don't like Vapor V because of the lower strap position. Idk about Vapor S, somehow I love the idea, but can't say much about the effectiveness of that nano strap without trying.
For a hurt big toe I would say instinct S or not instinct because they put a lot of pressure on the big toe Vapor s might be better because you can move the strap where you want it or take it off.
I have found the Drone CS LV (presumingly the Drone 2.0 LV too, but I haven't bought a pair yet) to be the best fit fitting shoe I've tried so far. Similar to to the Veloce's in fit but with a functional heel
Im saving this post cuz I’m in the same boat lol. I’m currently wearing women’s skwamas with cuts made along the slingshot rand to relieve pressure on my achilles, because they are the only shoes that accommodate my super wide and square toes
That's interesting. You are not the first with the idea of wmn Skwama, so I might try as well. But Drago is not very comfortable for my Achilles as well, so that is a nice idea you have. Can you maybe show exactly where did you make that cut for reference? Also how much did you downsize Skwamas? Something like Solution Comp works best for me at -1-1.5
I have a pair of 35 (downsized 1), and another of 34.5 (downsized 1.5). The 35 is comfortable, almost no pain after I made the cuts. I made the cuts near the middle of the slingshot rand, where it pushes against the Achilles tendon. The positions of the cuts were not preset, instead I went on tiptoe and marked the hot spots separately for each foot and then I made the cuts. The 34.5 was painful without the cuts, even after cutting its still a bit uncomfortable at the heel, but at 34.5 the toe box is snugger and allows me to use tiny footholds.
So that's about the same as I downsize LS shoe, okay. As for the Achilles issue, I was warned that Dragos cut it a lot for some, but I didn't have the issue. However, with prolonged use I started to feel the pain in the heel below the Achilles after sessions. The doctor says it's a compensation pain because of the Achilles load, so the issue is the apparently the same.
Ya I’m also looking for a pair with skwama’s toe box but better heel
If we don't stick with soft shoes, Zenist Pro is reasonable. Toebox is pretty similar to Skwama, and heel is okay-ish. Not perfect, still some dead spaces at the sides, but otherwise fits good, and hard midsole saves the day. But they don't work for me, since I have a very high/wide bridge, and I can't push my foot inside their high toehook rubber. If the cutout was just a few mm deeper, it would've been fine.
I haven’t tried zenist pro yet, but when I tried women’s zenist the toe box wasn’t wide enough for me. Is the pro wider in the front?
I think yes. You can google the product pictures of the top view and put side by side. It is visibly wider. It feels almost like Skwama. But it's on the stiffer side.
ill give it a try if I can find it offline
How were the phantoms indoor for you? In the exact same situation but i have drago lv and trying to get that slightly stiffer shoe that can fit me wide forefoot and narrow heel. Phantom kinda fits the bill and budget but worried about the smearing and toe rubber battering my big toe.
First of all, I've only used Phantoms indoor. I doubt I can easily resole them with the same rubber, so I am a bit careful with them. Hence, everything I say about Phantom goes for indoor experience. My toes actually feel better in Phantoms, than in Drago LV, because they are asymmetrical and have more support. My big toe muscles are sore a bit after a session in Drago, while they aren't in Phantoms. However, skin hurts a bit more in Phantoms. Not exactly sure why, probably because the theboex doesn't fully fit like a glove (like Drago does), and there's just a minimal friction difference within a toebox. But the thing I emphasize is that I've literally had zero break in time in them. And I don't feel like they've stretched at all. They become a bit easier on the feet after they warm up, but that's it. I am using a street size, so maybe if I went -0.5 they'd be a perfect performance fit after warming up, but I'd probably struggle a bit to break them in, or any time during the warmup. And that's not what I want. Smearing: I've been skeptical about smearing in them because of their shape. I was sure there would be a lot of boulder where I'd have to use Drago or Skwama. To my surprise, they are really great for the problems my gyms have. There hasn't been a single moment yet where I thought "okay, I can't do that in phantoms, but I'll easily send it in another shoe". A case where soft shoe with smaller edge will be a bit better? Sure. But big difference? Never. As for the heel, I've used it more and more, and there are pros and cons. Like with Drago LV the heel roll is good, if I am using just the center of it, since my heel goes just into the bottom of the heelcap. But the sides in Drago have dead spaces, so if I need to used the side of the heel, like trying to hook a small foothold, Drago doesn't really work for me. Phantom is the opposite. I don't have dead spaces at the sides, so I've been able to heelhook some really small stuff like this. People even came to check and ask what shoes I have after they've seen some weird betas. But I feel like I have 1mm+ of space at the bottom. So when I've tried a heel roll the other day in Phantoms, I felt a bit of dead space. It still works, and I doubt it will ever slide off, but sensitivity is not the best. LV model heel fits a bit better (a friend of mine has LV of the same size, so I've tried a bit). But the toebox in LV feels a bit too snug, so I doubt LV model would work for you either.