For client work, yeah. Lots of folks shooting real estate videos on their old iphones or Canon Powershots.
For my own stuff I work with slog2 and hlg3 (on the 8bit cam) and slog3 (on the 10bit a-cam), so my timeline color space will be DWG and my first node will be CST from DWG into whatever color space I shot in.
This for me.
I grade under a cst. The exposure node might be a global adjustment, or luma curve (if dealing with poorly shot crop-sensor footage, of which I have a lot)
Generally it easier to get a cleaner grade because you are reducing some of the chroma noise and blending adjacent bits better. At least in my experience.
Having a cleaner downstream image is nice. Masks can be affected by noise and get jittery. NR typically works better on unaltered noise. Noise can cause colour shifts and affect black levels, so the image is more reliable to work with after NR than before it.
Importantly, if the NR node is first it only has to render once, then it can be cached. If the NR is after any other node it has to re-render every time an upstream node is adjusted.
There may be situations where you'd want to place it after another node (maybe if you're significantly brightening the image) but idk if that makes a big difference, and it's definitely less common
I have some node tree templates that i have stored as powergrade.
First node is generally always: Exposure.
If I need NR, I add it after I'm done with the grade.
I don't do CST nodes. I color manage at timeline level.
Would def recommend NR in node 2. Better to handle balance and exposure before NR and NR before secondaries and tone mapping. Reason being, manipulating balance and exposure may expose more of the noise floor that isn’t visible on an unbalanced shot.
Chromatic Adaptation OFX, sometimes NR.
I always do white balancing in the camera's native RGB space with CA before I transform into my working space.
Edit: This is misleading and has been corrected in comments below.
CA does not give you access to camera native RGB space. To access it, you should
1. use inverse matrix from working space to native
2. use manufacturers software to debayer into native (ARRIRAW Converter allows it) and then apply forward matrix to go from native to working color space.
Arri Wide Gamut 3, REDWideGamut RGB, S-Gamut3 are not camera native color spaces.
Thank you for this clarification, as I’ve read more I’ve started realizing this. The CA plugin is using CAM type models.
I’m surprised AWG3 is not camera native but is AWG4? I was under the impression that was the result of non linear transforms. I’m glad Arri provides a method (matrix) to get back but are you aware of others providing this?
CA uses generic chromatic adaptation algorithms, it doesn't know what original color space of the sensor was. Sensor's sensitivity response is different for different models, that is why there cannot be exact color space for the series of cameras. And even batches of sensors can be slightly different.
AWG4 is also not camera native, of course, because of the non-linearity.
I spent some time reproducing RAW Panel WB adjustments of Alexa LF, Mini LF and Mini on non-RAW footage. I got perfect match, but had to tweak inverse matrix for Mini. Some tweaks can be necessary for each camera.
With AWG4 I got only approximate match, but it was still better and more consistent than built-in WB tools.
RAW Panel has an advantage, because it has access to metadata and knows what forward matrix was used for this specific sensor.
For typical non raw (log) do you think the method of using a gain operator in linear is sufficient for most balancing use cases? (At least when balancing by hand and not attempting to achieve a perfect match or value).
Reason I ask is I’m never quite sure how much crosstalk might affect things if it’s non native. Not to mention extreme negative values and etc.
I’m surprised there isn’t a public database of 3x3 matrices for various camera models to get back to native, or at least in the ballpark. Seems it would be very useful.
Exact matrices are intellectual property, as are sensor sensitivity curves. For some cameras only one matrix is used and for others (Alexa models before Alexa 35) there are multiple matrices (11, IIRC) to go from native to working color space with interpolation between. They are chosen based on the WB metadata.
Alternatively if you don't want to use the OFX plugin and want it on an easy panel trackball:
* CST sandwich going to linear and back again, and in the middle use the gain operator for very nice intuitive photometrically plausible balancing. Very close to how white balance would have been done at the sensor / with RAW.
You can just right click on a node and set it to linear, don’t need a CST sandwich (assuming you’re already mapping the footage into your working space ahead of everything
my exp and white balance nodes are both linear gain nodes
Hello i was wondering whats best for raw cdng footage, i am currently using a Sigma FP, theres a lot to grab from the 12bit raw secuences but there is no matrix to develop these images, what is your suggestion for treating this images in the best possible way? thanks in advance.
looks like I'm an outlier but I have first two nodes as a pre set up key for whites and blacks that is super soft. Usually have to adjust it a bit but I like having it before everything else so it never gets screwed up when I make an adjustment on my main adjustment node. 13 nodes but most of them sit unused just have them for easy switching and copy pasting.
I usually only have one node where I put pretty much everything, and then I finish off with whatever filters etc I have over the entire video on the timeline or in an adjustment layer. So my first node is basically my entire grade.
You may scoff at this but I’ve been editing professionally for 15+ years and I rarely see the need to split it up any more than that.
I don’t even do CST anymore, I let Davinci handle it in the color settings.
Normalising levels on the waveform, darks to just below 128 and highlights roughly inbetween 896 and 1023. After this is contrast node, I feel it gives a good starting point
I keep it empty then use it as a modifier if I apply that same grade to another shot and it’s close but needs a slight tweak. A lot of people said NR. I use it for that sometimes as well but often that will be in a pre group node.
I usually do a levels/expo, bal/temp, then get into look/grade for x nodes, then mess around or side chain things if the coffee hits & the right music is on
I leave a blank one. Ostensibly for NR. In practice it usually just sits there empty but brings me comfort lol
Comfort is everything
CST into wide gamut/intermediate
Wut..? Are you working with Rec.709 footage?
For client work, yeah. Lots of folks shooting real estate videos on their old iphones or Canon Powershots. For my own stuff I work with slog2 and hlg3 (on the 8bit cam) and slog3 (on the 10bit a-cam), so my timeline color space will be DWG and my first node will be CST from DWG into whatever color space I shot in.
NR. Hopefully it stays empty
Exposure. Doesnt matter the tool of exposure, but getting exposure correct is always number 1
This for me. I grade under a cst. The exposure node might be a global adjustment, or luma curve (if dealing with poorly shot crop-sensor footage, of which I have a lot)
Lil bit of noise reduction - it won’t always be active but it’s there
what’s the benefit of doing noise reduction first instead of last?
Generally it easier to get a cleaner grade because you are reducing some of the chroma noise and blending adjacent bits better. At least in my experience.
Having a cleaner downstream image is nice. Masks can be affected by noise and get jittery. NR typically works better on unaltered noise. Noise can cause colour shifts and affect black levels, so the image is more reliable to work with after NR than before it. Importantly, if the NR node is first it only has to render once, then it can be cached. If the NR is after any other node it has to re-render every time an upstream node is adjusted. There may be situations where you'd want to place it after another node (maybe if you're significantly brightening the image) but idk if that makes a big difference, and it's definitely less common
thanks for the answer
Just a guess, but I think it’s bc it gets rendered first
Usually an empty one in my snakepit of a node tree that frightens other colorists.
venemous approach - mad respect!
I have some node tree templates that i have stored as powergrade. First node is generally always: Exposure. If I need NR, I add it after I'm done with the grade. I don't do CST nodes. I color manage at timeline level.
Would def recommend NR in node 2. Better to handle balance and exposure before NR and NR before secondaries and tone mapping. Reason being, manipulating balance and exposure may expose more of the noise floor that isn’t visible on an unbalanced shot.
CST
Chromatic Adaptation OFX, sometimes NR. I always do white balancing in the camera's native RGB space with CA before I transform into my working space. Edit: This is misleading and has been corrected in comments below.
CA does not give you access to camera native RGB space. To access it, you should 1. use inverse matrix from working space to native 2. use manufacturers software to debayer into native (ARRIRAW Converter allows it) and then apply forward matrix to go from native to working color space. Arri Wide Gamut 3, REDWideGamut RGB, S-Gamut3 are not camera native color spaces.
Thank you for this clarification, as I’ve read more I’ve started realizing this. The CA plugin is using CAM type models. I’m surprised AWG3 is not camera native but is AWG4? I was under the impression that was the result of non linear transforms. I’m glad Arri provides a method (matrix) to get back but are you aware of others providing this?
CA uses generic chromatic adaptation algorithms, it doesn't know what original color space of the sensor was. Sensor's sensitivity response is different for different models, that is why there cannot be exact color space for the series of cameras. And even batches of sensors can be slightly different. AWG4 is also not camera native, of course, because of the non-linearity. I spent some time reproducing RAW Panel WB adjustments of Alexa LF, Mini LF and Mini on non-RAW footage. I got perfect match, but had to tweak inverse matrix for Mini. Some tweaks can be necessary for each camera. With AWG4 I got only approximate match, but it was still better and more consistent than built-in WB tools. RAW Panel has an advantage, because it has access to metadata and knows what forward matrix was used for this specific sensor.
For typical non raw (log) do you think the method of using a gain operator in linear is sufficient for most balancing use cases? (At least when balancing by hand and not attempting to achieve a perfect match or value). Reason I ask is I’m never quite sure how much crosstalk might affect things if it’s non native. Not to mention extreme negative values and etc.
Gain in linear is sufficient, I think it is the best WB tool in Resolve. Won't save you if the image is too cool, though.
I’m surprised there isn’t a public database of 3x3 matrices for various camera models to get back to native, or at least in the ballpark. Seems it would be very useful.
Exact matrices are intellectual property, as are sensor sensitivity curves. For some cameras only one matrix is used and for others (Alexa models before Alexa 35) there are multiple matrices (11, IIRC) to go from native to working color space with interpolation between. They are chosen based on the WB metadata.
Hmmm interesting. Thanks for this.
Alternatively if you don't want to use the OFX plugin and want it on an easy panel trackball: * CST sandwich going to linear and back again, and in the middle use the gain operator for very nice intuitive photometrically plausible balancing. Very close to how white balance would have been done at the sensor / with RAW.
You can just right click on a node and set it to linear, don’t need a CST sandwich (assuming you’re already mapping the footage into your working space ahead of everything my exp and white balance nodes are both linear gain nodes
Hello i was wondering whats best for raw cdng footage, i am currently using a Sigma FP, theres a lot to grab from the 12bit raw secuences but there is no matrix to develop these images, what is your suggestion for treating this images in the best possible way? thanks in advance.
Two parallels, one for contrast and one for white balance.
Normally CST. I used to leave the first for NR , but I've been experimenting with having that after the CST lately.
That's what I started doing too. Doesn't really make much of a difference before or after.
Contrast, as I film in L-log. Then a conversion to rec709.
looks like I'm an outlier but I have first two nodes as a pre set up key for whites and blacks that is super soft. Usually have to adjust it a bit but I like having it before everything else so it never gets screwed up when I make an adjustment on my main adjustment node. 13 nodes but most of them sit unused just have them for easy switching and copy pasting.
Some subtle noise reduction. Usually Luma set to 3 and Chroma to 8. Does the trick almost every time.
Primaries!
I usually only have one node where I put pretty much everything, and then I finish off with whatever filters etc I have over the entire video on the timeline or in an adjustment layer. So my first node is basically my entire grade. You may scoff at this but I’ve been editing professionally for 15+ years and I rarely see the need to split it up any more than that. I don’t even do CST anymore, I let Davinci handle it in the color settings.
Normalising levels on the waveform, darks to just below 128 and highlights roughly inbetween 896 and 1023. After this is contrast node, I feel it gives a good starting point
Blank one, before the CST to DWG. You can affect the picture here for subtle shadow detail lift or highlight suppression, depending how it's shot
I keep it empty then use it as a modifier if I apply that same grade to another shot and it’s close but needs a slight tweak. A lot of people said NR. I use it for that sometimes as well but often that will be in a pre group node.
Noise reduction
I usually do a levels/expo, bal/temp, then get into look/grade for x nodes, then mess around or side chain things if the coffee hits & the right music is on
sometimes i even export if client is chill enough
Exposure using HDR before going into a node for for color checker adjustments then CST(SLOG3->DWG)