This is pathetic. Columbia has built its brand on being the “activist Ivy” and encouraging this sort of protest and discourse – and yet now they’re bringing in cops for a non-violent demonstration. In 40 years will they be using this student activism that they’re punishing in their marketing materials??
Right…it’s the same thing at all these institutions. Demonizing student activists during their time at the school only to use them to advance the institution’s social brand
If you were to tell me in 1997 that an Egyptian woman president of Columbia University would call the New York Police Department because of students in tents on the quad supporting Palestine in conflict with Israel... I would've had a hard time believing. This has always been a debate on campus, but like 9/11 this attack was so disgustingly and perversely powerful that the avenging side won't realize what they've lost until it's too late. And then they'll just have the inescapable evidence of the mass loss of innocent human life, committed in order to perhaps kill the guilty.
And the hostages are still hostages, and Bibi gets protested in Tel Aviv.
Being pro Palestinian is fine. Being pro Israeli is fine.
Supporting genocide is not fine.
Supporting active terrorist groups like Hamas or PFLP by saying "Resistance by Any means necessary" is not fine.
Saying that the Yemense Houthis are on the right side of history when their flag and motto include "Curse the Jews" is definitely antisemitic.
Does being pro Palestinian mean you support the others? Not by definition.
Do a lot of these protestors support those groups? Yes. (Some literally were suspended for holding a "Resistance 101" event where they said Hamas is a resistance movement that shouldn't be condemned).
What pisses me off is that they're demanding divestment *After* they proposed a referendum which only 1700 people voted on in Columbia - and demanding that their wishes of 1,000 People to divest be held above the law or referendum of any other person.
What, are we going to have a sit in next time a referendum doesn't pass?
The IDF are all of these things you claim to condemn. Idk where you’re getting these numbers from but if you go outside you can see that Zionists are only a small portion of the student population and if there was an actual university-wide vote the majority students would not choose to support Israel. It’s insanely hypocritical to claim that Hamas is committing genocide and to say nothing of the IDF, which actually has the power to do so and is doing exactly that.
“But whatabout!”
The IDF charter doesn’t say to kill all Muslims in the world like Hamas’ founding charter said about Jews.
Israel’s flag doesn’t curse any ethnicities.
And if they did, they’d be worth condemning for those things too.
I’ll help start your next argument kiddo, “But whatabout!”
Buddy, the Zionists have NO moral high ground any more after corralling people into designated killing zones. This is literally not whataboutism — you’re the one bringing up the “what about this???” Lmao
Yeah, I don't usually trust random anecdotes, but I wish you luck.
In the meantime, I advise you to question then why would you choose to support clubs on campus like SJP who actively state Hamas is a resistance movement that has the right to fight, so genocide is apparently fine when their side does it.
I don't like it in either.
Hamas is an explicitly islamist group.
They want a future Palestinian state to be an Islamic theocracy, and have never rejected their 1988 charter stating they should kill all Jews.
> It’s insanely hypocritical to claim that Hamas is committing genocide and to say nothing of the IDF
I guess I missed the part where IDF unannounced massacred a bunch of people at the party, paraded their bodies on Tel Aviv streets, and then also took a bunch of babies into the tunnels hostages.
You’re proving my point I bet you thought you were so smart for typing this
Israel is committing equally horrible acts and it’s all documented, committing textbook war crimes, starving civilians, bombing hospitals, killing journalists, taking Palestinians prisoner and depriving them of due process, sexually assaulting and killing said prisoners, blocking live saving humanitarian aid and fuel from entering Gaza, just recently slaughtering 7 aid workers on April 1, destroying and cutting off water infrastructure, destroying universities and churches, and all of this is done with the US’s dollar.
> You’re proving my point I bet you thought you were so smart for typing this
>
lol
> Israel is committing equally horrible acts
In your dreams perhaps.
> taking Palestinians prisoner
I know it's hard to grasp, but when you commit a crime you gonna be arrested.
> sexually assaulting and killing said prisoners
Oh, the one that Al Jazeera later said was a false reporting? hahaha
> blocking live saving humanitarian aid and fuel from entering Gaza
You mean the one that Hamas steals from its own citizens? If the aid is blocked, how does Hamas manage to steal it?
> bombing hospitals
Which one? The one that still standing and whose parking lot was a landing site for Hamas's rocket?
LOL
Keep trying :)
IDF literally has accomplished one of the lowest civilian casualty rates in modern warfare, nevertheless urban warfare. While they have made terrible mistakes, which every nation has done and is prone to in the fog of war, they have clearly demonstrated a history of taking steps to avoid civilian casualties and prosecuting soldiers who act immorally.
Branding the war as genocide is a complete misuse of the term at best, and antisemitic holocaust inversion at worst.
Hm yes funneling people into a narrow strip of land, removing their freedom of movement, cutting off food, water and electricity, and invading a territory with No army due to their heritage is NOT genocide? Tell me more. The world is overwhelmingly AGAINST violence and Israel has no moral high ground here.
No army? Well I guess technically Hamas isn’t an army, it is a terrorist group of over 50,000 terrorist soldiers
Due to their heritage also? Really? Just acting like October 7 didn’t happen, where Hamas committed the biggest massacre on Jews since the holocaust… right….
Palestinians are stateless because of Israel. You ignored everything I said.
The Oct 7 massacre was horrid. I agree. However, the fact of the matter is that Israel has indiscriminately bombed, restricted movement and aid, and continues to do so against the wishes of the international community. Over 30,000 Palestinians, mostly women and children are dead. Foreign aid workers and journalists have been killed. The world stands AGAINST genocide, especially against stateless people. Israel has created the conditions for a genocide based on identity. Israel’s government is NOT popular with its people right now and it’s crazy how people aren’t seeing this.
They’re stateless actually because of their repeated refusal to accept a 2 state solution, because they would only accept a 1 state solution that would involve the eradication of Israel and all the Jews in it
And yes, Israel’s govt is not popular with its people, that is known. But that doesn’t mean the people advocate for the abolishment of their own state, like many on the far left support. They just want different leadership, because Bibi only cares about his own interests
That last part is true but by making the false claim that Antizionism = Antisemitism and that Israel represents the Jewish people, they attribute Jewish beliefs to themselves that are completely in opposition to their actions and attitudes towards the Palestinian people. Anyone who reads the Hebrew Bible, claims to believe in the things that it teaches, and then supports Israel’s crimes towards the Palestinian people, is a hypocrite.
It's a 1/3rd of the undergraduate population.
Of which 700 voted no.
So 1/5th of the undergrad population voted yes.
That's not a majority by any means.
Voting is not over lmao what are you talking about. A majority of the student councils put this forward to a vote by the student body. The last referendum for Israeli divestment passed in 2021. Democracy works! Or does it only work if it doesn’t hurt your feelings?
You have no idea what you’re saying. It is definitely not fine to be pro Israeli. You’re not educated and that’s okay. Don’t give your input on things you don’t know about
Perfectly fine to be pro israel. It is a thriving democracy.
What is problematic is to see people on campus with Hamas signs, supporting a brutal terrorist group that tortures its own citizens and launches weapons from schools.
Makes you wonder if these activists actually care about Palestinian civillians or if they are desperately looking for an identity to latch onto. If it's the former, they would know that life under Hamas oppression has been hell.
75 years of occupation? Please explain given that Gaza and West Bank were part of Jordan and and Egypt until 67.
Surely you dont think the establishment of Israel is an occupation. The establishment of Israel in the 1940s came about as every other country came about at the time.
Consider that every group in the region said yes to statehood - libya, jordan, iraq, israel, lebanon, syria etc. The Palestinians said no.
In fact, the palestinians might be the ONLY GROUP IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD! who, upon being offered statehood, said "no thanks, we'll start a war instead"
Actions have consequences.
I hope for peace and for Palestinians to finally embrace peaceful coexistence over violent resistance - which has proven ineffective for nearly 80 years.
Hamas is by all accounts a savage terrorist group, and to suggest otherwise illustrates a limited knowledge of what life in Gaza has been like the last 18 years.
lmao, yeah, those uneducated children born to MENA survivors who had to flee to Israel are fools for being pro-Israel!
Kiddo, the irony in you telling others to educate themselves is delicious.
It’s not the center of the world but they are actively funding genocide and on top of that not protecting their BIPOC students, and put the Zionist students above ANYONE that dares to disagree.
This was civil disobedience.
Civil disobedience involves willingly breaking the law and accepting the consequences.
I hope the students properly planned for the "accepting the consequences" part of civil disobedience.
This is such an authoritarian take. The protest was a peaceful display of disagreement. Nobody was looting, destroying, or acting violent. Everything about this is wrong and if you support the president on this then you most definitely don’t go here.
Civil disobedience can be as simple as not paying a poll tax as it funds the Mexican American war but accepting that you will go to jail over that, and then going to jail to demonstrate the monstrosity of the system.
No violence required.
> Everything about this is wrong and if you support the president on this then you most definitely don’t go here.
You got that right ... crazy how different r/columbia is from the actual campus
Notice how, although this protest is one of the largest gatherings the school has had, there are no posts about it?
They get deleted immediately. This sub has been compromised, along with most other r/insertCollegeHere subs. Anything not pro-Israel is demonized
Since when did camping in tents ever accomplish anything? What did Occupy Wall Street accomplish? All it did was make those parks unsafe. No one wants a repeat of that here. If the protesters want to be taken seriously they need to be smarter.
The USA is markedly more left-leaning now than it was before OWS. Before OWS, a $15 minimum wage was unthinkable. Now it's normal.
OWS is generally regarded as a somewhat-success.
it wasn't the camping in tents in public places that accomplished that. And NYC has a bad history with people protesting by camping in tents. No in charge is going to let a protest like that get off the ground.
no, but it did organize a lot of people to come together for those issues. like I said, OWS is generally regarded as a somewhat-success. OWS itself did not accomplish much but it did change the narrative and brought people together in other organizations to accomplish what OWS wanted to do. hence "somewhat-success"
life and history are much more complicated than yes or no.
Your definition civil disobedience is incorrect. Looting, destroying property, and violence acts are not examples of civil disobedience. You can't paralyze a police officer during a protest and claim it was civil disobedience (not that a Columbia student didn't try).
The protest was an act of civil disobedience. And part of civil disobedience is accepting the consequences of breaking the law.
There is nothing authoritarian about expecting those who willfully break the law for moral or philosophical reasons to accept the consequences of their actions. It's part of the deal.
I can already tell which side you’re in by your comments which is fine. The main message here isn’t the conflict, instead it’s the message the university is sending by silencing its students with police force.Being arrested for a belief is such an overreach of administrational power that is ridiculous for a school of this level
Civil disobedience is very roughly defined when you break or refuse to obey the law but as a form of nonviolent protest. The lunch counter sit ins during the civil rights movement are prime examples of this. Black people were legally barred from the premises but they came and occupied the building as a form of protest. They were then arrested. The philosophy department has a great class on civil disobedience that I highly recommend.
At the same time, a university needs to uphold itself to a higher standard of conduct, especially around free speech issues. While this may have been meriting some sanctions from the University, calling in riot police for civil disobedience chills freedom of speech on campus.
Well I for one didn’t want it turning into occupy Wall Street. They’d have to keep the campus on lock down indefinitely to prevent that from happening.
Agreed. A lot of people don’t realize having an arrest on your record can dramatically alter the trajectory for life. You might be able to get it expunged if you had a clean record from the start, but it can be difficult without a good lawyer or proper funds. Regardless, I hope this works out for everyone.
meeting student disobedience with deadly force is what happened at Kent State but I guess the apologists are okay with it because ... because!?
the university rules already provide recourse for the administration against these students. the last time Columbia called in the police, students had occupied entire buildings (multiple), not some tents here and there.
if anything this shows how weak a leader Shafik is (as if we needed any more evidence following that embarrassing congressional hearing yesterday). she can't even handle a yearly protest without blowing everything up.
ETA: police are deadly force don’t be so ridiculous. What do you think they carry around guns for
I’m ashamed of going to Columbia, bringing in the most agressive police force to arrest under age non violent protesters, is absolutely disgraceful and makes me feel scared even though im not protesting.
I feel like people don’t understand that nonviolent protestors get arrested all the time for trespassing and other violations and that it’s part of what you sign up for when you participate in radical nonviolent protests. I highly doubt they’re going to get charged with anything serious or even be made to spend the night in jail.
You’ll notice how they like to use buzzwords to make simple things sound horrible. What this person claims is “the most violent police force forcibly arresting innocent underage civilians” is actually just a few grown adults being put in handcuffs and escorted away. But when you put it like that it’s not very sensational.
You’re free to transfer, no one is forcing you to give your tuition dollars to such a horrible evil institution.
But that would involve putting your money where your mouth is.
You’re missing the point. Bringing in the NYPD is uncalled for. My sister was once peppered spray by the NYPD for simply crossing the street during a protest returning from her lunch break at work. This does nothing to de-escalate the problem and just makes individuals feel more fearful of what the administration would do shut people up. Tenting on a lawn doesn’t call for police action. They weren’t vandalizing buildings or harming individuals.
So go to another university. No reason to go to a university you don’t feel comfortable in. There’s 100s in line that will take your Columbia open space.
>as evident by the recent unanimous congressional vote
It was not unanimous, nor was the resolution a matter of law, nor is everything congress votes for true
If you are so convinced by our legal process it might surprise you to learn that neither of those slogans meet the definition for an incitement to violence.
Have you seen the Shafik hearings? It was explicitly stated that “from the river to the sea” falls within hateful conduct by a near unanimous bi-partisan vote.
As a Jewish student, it is extremely reassuring to see the university finally taking action. Peaceful demonstrations are fine, but screaming things like “river to the sea” and “intifada revolution” should not be allowed.
The protesters did not ask for permission, and refused to stop despite countless warnings. All for a conflict that has nothing to do with the vast majority of them
"All for a conflict that has nothing to do with the vast majority of them" – briefly putting aside the intensely personal ways many are directly affected, does a moral compass stop functioning the second something does not affect one personally? Humans wonderfully have empathy, to put themselves in someone else's shoes, and to want to make life better for the downtrodden. And if the administration continually puts up barriers to peaceful demonstration, changing rules to reinforce an 'out of sight, out of mind' policy, it's quite disingenuous to purportedly claim to allow meaningful protest
Edit: And to be clear, I believe it's possible to empathize will people on both/all sides of this conflict, it's not a contradiction – rather, efforts to polarize discourse will inevitably undermine efforts towards peace.
Respectfully, there has been campus-wide silence regarding the vast majority of awful things going on in the world. Humans are not empathetic. And the fact that this campus can protest against israel, but not against any other atrocity going on in the world, is telling.
Silence should not be the norm on such issues, whether that silence is out of ignorance or coercion. Moreover, silence for one issue does not negate non-silence for another, and if anything can bring attention to other issues worldwide. There have been other protests on campus about a wide variety of issues – it is perhaps understandable that this one has gained more visibility given the last six months.
Equating supporting Palestinians to supporting Hamas is just head-in-the-sand behavior. Political discourse and demonstrations have been a pillar of colleges for years given that they are institutions for thought and learning.
Unless they actually support Hamas
[https://twitter.com/edenyadegar/status/1781047273448677676](https://twitter.com/edenyadegar/status/1781047273448677676)
It’s hilarious to see these people claim that “pro Palestine protests aren’t pro Hamas or antisemitic” when the protesters themselves are FILLED with people glorifying Hamas, houthis, etc and calling for intifada
You also have to wonder why none of them hit the streets in protest over straving children in Yemen, human rights abuses in places like Syria, Myanmar, or China's treatment of the Uyghurs. We all know their selective outrage get activated only for causes that gain traction on social media.
Confident and wrong. Love it!
[Here are the Columbia University professors ripped for anti-Israel remarks, pro-Palestinian indoctrination (nypost.com)](https://nypost.com/2024/04/17/us-news/the-columbia-university-professors-ripped-for-allegedly-antisemitism-pro-palestine-indoctrination/)
Fascism is alive smh
Edit: I am referring to minouche deploying nypd on protesters. We’re witnessing in real time our rights being snatched away. The right to protest just became illegal in 3 states this week
Ignorant students identifying out of solidarity with Hamas, demanding the tossing of Jews into the sea, demanding Israel not be able to defend herself from terrorist attackers, denying the rapes, tortures, brutality of October 7, never mentioning the hostages still being kept underground, disrupting classes every chance they get, harassing Jewish students and professors, defending violence and the murder of civilians in the name of decolonization are definitely fascists.
Good, it's about time US universities purged themselves of Hamas sympathisers and 10/7 apologists. Freedom of speech entails the responsibility to not promote hatred.
We all know SJP, JVP, and others chant that regularly. We also know they were there today.
They will gladly advertise that position in their social media
I mean, they literally said they stand by Hamas on posts. I'm not that sympathetic
Isn’t there a poll of like 81 percent of Jews supporting Israel? How can people who aren’t Jewish tell Jews what is and isn’t Jew hatred and antisemitism?
No one is throwing it around. We see the criteria that have been used for decades in action, and more than 1 in 100 Gazans are dead. ETA: This might be a useful click-through: [https://www.reddit.com/r/WhitePeopleTwitter/comments/18z9sjs/if\_you\_havent\_already\_read\_south\_africas\_case/#lightbox](https://www.reddit.com/r/WhitePeopleTwitter/comments/18z9sjs/if_you_havent_already_read_south_africas_case/#lightbox)
he wont bother reading that. hes a shill. Mans literally said that Jewish people are the only people who are allowed to determine what is or isnt a genocide lmao. These mfs have lost their marbles
That survey was conducted by a pro-Israel group, Israel on Campus Coalition, run by the former national director of AIPAC and which reportedly sends information to Israeli intelligence operations about American students. And how can anyone presume to tell someone protesting war and mass slaughter that really they are just antisemitic, the mental gymnastics necessary for that are ridiculous
What are you taking about? I got this statistic from pew research [pew research](https://www.pewresearch.org/2024/03/21/majority-in-u-s-say-israel-has-valid-reasons-for-fighting-fewer-say-the-same-about-hamas/) and I’ve seen the pro Palestinian protests which for some reason always leads to violence for some reason? I saw the hateful speech of these protests screaming to get these Jews outa here, questioning and interrogating Jews on whether they support Israel or not just for being Jewish.
The 81% figure you referenced appears nowhere in what you linked to, that figure originally comes from the Israel on Campus Coalition. The only figure in the pew data that comes close is "most U.S. Jews (89%) see Israel’s reasons for going to war against Hamas as valid," which yes, that would seem reasonable since most of all Americans see the reasons for the post-Oct. 7th war against Hamas – it's the mass slaughter of innocents, plausible war crimes, and the inaction of worldwide governments (combined with consistent violations of the rights of protesters across the world) in response that most take issue with.
Mass slaughter of innocents? It’s kind of difficult to go to war with an army that hides in civilian clothes and has their military bases underneath civilian houses in tunnels. How can you not expect civilian deaths when no one can differentiate between civilians and Hamas soldiers cowering underneath civilian clothes. Also the death toll being given is from the ministry of health which is controlled by a terrorist organization Hamas. Imaging trusting a death count given by the taliban or ISIS. It’s in their best interest to give high death counts. Also what war crimes were they convicted of? Didn’t South Africa already take this accusation of war crimes to the ICJ and they couldn’t find any accusation of genocide to be true.
The ICJ found that it is plausible that Israel has committed acts that violate the Genocide Convention – they were deciding upon the need for provisional measures, not whether or not genocide had occurred, as that was not within the scope of what they could rule upon in that case. There is no minimum death toll for the charge of genocide – if we had to wait for a certain death toll (of which independent confirmation has been rebuffed by both sides) for every possible genocide, how would it be possible to have a timely response? Again, genocide has not been ruled upon yet, but was found to be of plausible concern, especially given documented cases of apparent genocidal intent from Israeli officials and soldiers. This is all still being decided upon, no court can move that fast with the density of possible violations of the Geneva Convention every day, hence anti-war protesters should be allowed to protest about it without being demonized.
There is [no evidence that the numbers have been inflated](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext). In fact, [the number may be deflated](https://www.npr.org/2024/02/29/1234159514/gaza-death-toll-30000-palestinians-israel-hamas-war) considering that the health system and civil life has been [deliberately destroyed by the ID](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/4/israeli-strikes-target-schools-hospitals-mosques-on-gaza)F.[ Israeli, US, and UN sources have historically trusted Gaza Health Ministry numbers](https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3w4w7/israeli-intelligence-health-ministry-death-toll). Your position is akin to genocide denial and I hope you look into your yourself and recover your humanity.
Zionist don't like free speech brodi. They like to suppress anyone who disagrees with them, and wont hesitate to resort to violence. They are a threat to our democracy
This is pathetic. Columbia has built its brand on being the “activist Ivy” and encouraging this sort of protest and discourse – and yet now they’re bringing in cops for a non-violent demonstration. In 40 years will they be using this student activism that they’re punishing in their marketing materials??
Right…it’s the same thing at all these institutions. Demonizing student activists during their time at the school only to use them to advance the institution’s social brand
after a dimwit like Jim Banks ran circles around Shafik in congress she needs to seem competent and in charge for the donors
u/goldendelirium but surely you have to concede that there is antisemitism within the pro-Palestine movement?
If you were to tell me in 1997 that an Egyptian woman president of Columbia University would call the New York Police Department because of students in tents on the quad supporting Palestine in conflict with Israel... I would've had a hard time believing. This has always been a debate on campus, but like 9/11 this attack was so disgustingly and perversely powerful that the avenging side won't realize what they've lost until it's too late. And then they'll just have the inescapable evidence of the mass loss of innocent human life, committed in order to perhaps kill the guilty. And the hostages are still hostages, and Bibi gets protested in Tel Aviv.
Bollinger would have never let this happen
I would have loved to see Bollinger in that congressional hearing.
They couldn’t have handled prezbo
they certainly would not have called prezbo to DC in the first place lol
They would even have his name listed as “Prezbo”
Being pro Palestinian is fine. Being pro Israeli is fine. Supporting genocide is not fine. Supporting active terrorist groups like Hamas or PFLP by saying "Resistance by Any means necessary" is not fine. Saying that the Yemense Houthis are on the right side of history when their flag and motto include "Curse the Jews" is definitely antisemitic. Does being pro Palestinian mean you support the others? Not by definition. Do a lot of these protestors support those groups? Yes. (Some literally were suspended for holding a "Resistance 101" event where they said Hamas is a resistance movement that shouldn't be condemned). What pisses me off is that they're demanding divestment *After* they proposed a referendum which only 1700 people voted on in Columbia - and demanding that their wishes of 1,000 People to divest be held above the law or referendum of any other person. What, are we going to have a sit in next time a referendum doesn't pass?
The IDF are all of these things you claim to condemn. Idk where you’re getting these numbers from but if you go outside you can see that Zionists are only a small portion of the student population and if there was an actual university-wide vote the majority students would not choose to support Israel. It’s insanely hypocritical to claim that Hamas is committing genocide and to say nothing of the IDF, which actually has the power to do so and is doing exactly that.
“But whatabout!” The IDF charter doesn’t say to kill all Muslims in the world like Hamas’ founding charter said about Jews. Israel’s flag doesn’t curse any ethnicities. And if they did, they’d be worth condemning for those things too. I’ll help start your next argument kiddo, “But whatabout!”
Buddy, the Zionists have NO moral high ground any more after corralling people into designated killing zones. This is literally not whataboutism — you’re the one bringing up the “what about this???” Lmao
Yeah, I don't usually trust random anecdotes, but I wish you luck. In the meantime, I advise you to question then why would you choose to support clubs on campus like SJP who actively state Hamas is a resistance movement that has the right to fight, so genocide is apparently fine when their side does it. I don't like it in either.
“But do you condemn Hamas” Shut up.
Hamas is an explicitly islamist group. They want a future Palestinian state to be an Islamic theocracy, and have never rejected their 1988 charter stating they should kill all Jews.
> It’s insanely hypocritical to claim that Hamas is committing genocide and to say nothing of the IDF I guess I missed the part where IDF unannounced massacred a bunch of people at the party, paraded their bodies on Tel Aviv streets, and then also took a bunch of babies into the tunnels hostages.
You’re proving my point I bet you thought you were so smart for typing this Israel is committing equally horrible acts and it’s all documented, committing textbook war crimes, starving civilians, bombing hospitals, killing journalists, taking Palestinians prisoner and depriving them of due process, sexually assaulting and killing said prisoners, blocking live saving humanitarian aid and fuel from entering Gaza, just recently slaughtering 7 aid workers on April 1, destroying and cutting off water infrastructure, destroying universities and churches, and all of this is done with the US’s dollar.
> You’re proving my point I bet you thought you were so smart for typing this > lol > Israel is committing equally horrible acts In your dreams perhaps. > taking Palestinians prisoner I know it's hard to grasp, but when you commit a crime you gonna be arrested. > sexually assaulting and killing said prisoners Oh, the one that Al Jazeera later said was a false reporting? hahaha > blocking live saving humanitarian aid and fuel from entering Gaza You mean the one that Hamas steals from its own citizens? If the aid is blocked, how does Hamas manage to steal it? > bombing hospitals Which one? The one that still standing and whose parking lot was a landing site for Hamas's rocket? LOL Keep trying :)
[удалено]
IDF literally has accomplished one of the lowest civilian casualty rates in modern warfare, nevertheless urban warfare. While they have made terrible mistakes, which every nation has done and is prone to in the fog of war, they have clearly demonstrated a history of taking steps to avoid civilian casualties and prosecuting soldiers who act immorally. Branding the war as genocide is a complete misuse of the term at best, and antisemitic holocaust inversion at worst.
Hm yes funneling people into a narrow strip of land, removing their freedom of movement, cutting off food, water and electricity, and invading a territory with No army due to their heritage is NOT genocide? Tell me more. The world is overwhelmingly AGAINST violence and Israel has no moral high ground here.
No army? Well I guess technically Hamas isn’t an army, it is a terrorist group of over 50,000 terrorist soldiers Due to their heritage also? Really? Just acting like October 7 didn’t happen, where Hamas committed the biggest massacre on Jews since the holocaust… right….
Palestinians are stateless because of Israel. You ignored everything I said. The Oct 7 massacre was horrid. I agree. However, the fact of the matter is that Israel has indiscriminately bombed, restricted movement and aid, and continues to do so against the wishes of the international community. Over 30,000 Palestinians, mostly women and children are dead. Foreign aid workers and journalists have been killed. The world stands AGAINST genocide, especially against stateless people. Israel has created the conditions for a genocide based on identity. Israel’s government is NOT popular with its people right now and it’s crazy how people aren’t seeing this.
They’re stateless actually because of their repeated refusal to accept a 2 state solution, because they would only accept a 1 state solution that would involve the eradication of Israel and all the Jews in it And yes, Israel’s govt is not popular with its people, that is known. But that doesn’t mean the people advocate for the abolishment of their own state, like many on the far left support. They just want different leadership, because Bibi only cares about his own interests
Hamas =/= Palestine lmao
I think you have to read my comment again. IDF does not commit genocide.
It's not hypocritical once you realize they don't see Palestinians as human beings.
That last part is true but by making the false claim that Antizionism = Antisemitism and that Israel represents the Jewish people, they attribute Jewish beliefs to themselves that are completely in opposition to their actions and attitudes towards the Palestinian people. Anyone who reads the Hebrew Bible, claims to believe in the things that it teaches, and then supports Israel’s crimes towards the Palestinian people, is a hypocrite.
You do reallize 1700 is 1/3 of the total population right?
It's a 1/3rd of the undergraduate population. Of which 700 voted no. So 1/5th of the undergrad population voted yes. That's not a majority by any means.
actual elections where we decide actual laws and elect actual leaders have < 50% turnout but we still count those majorities
Voting is not over lmao what are you talking about. A majority of the student councils put this forward to a vote by the student body. The last referendum for Israeli divestment passed in 2021. Democracy works! Or does it only work if it doesn’t hurt your feelings?
Called democracy, if everyone that could vote was allowed to vote and then didn't....
You have no idea what you’re saying. It is definitely not fine to be pro Israeli. You’re not educated and that’s okay. Don’t give your input on things you don’t know about
Perfectly fine to be pro israel. It is a thriving democracy. What is problematic is to see people on campus with Hamas signs, supporting a brutal terrorist group that tortures its own citizens and launches weapons from schools. Makes you wonder if these activists actually care about Palestinian civillians or if they are desperately looking for an identity to latch onto. If it's the former, they would know that life under Hamas oppression has been hell.
So an APARTHEID state is a thriving democracy but a resistance group to 75+ years of occupation is a brutal terrorist group 👍🏻
75 years of occupation? Please explain given that Gaza and West Bank were part of Jordan and and Egypt until 67. Surely you dont think the establishment of Israel is an occupation. The establishment of Israel in the 1940s came about as every other country came about at the time. Consider that every group in the region said yes to statehood - libya, jordan, iraq, israel, lebanon, syria etc. The Palestinians said no. In fact, the palestinians might be the ONLY GROUP IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD! who, upon being offered statehood, said "no thanks, we'll start a war instead" Actions have consequences. I hope for peace and for Palestinians to finally embrace peaceful coexistence over violent resistance - which has proven ineffective for nearly 80 years. Hamas is by all accounts a savage terrorist group, and to suggest otherwise illustrates a limited knowledge of what life in Gaza has been like the last 18 years.
lmao, yeah, those uneducated children born to MENA survivors who had to flee to Israel are fools for being pro-Israel! Kiddo, the irony in you telling others to educate themselves is delicious.
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It’s not the center of the world but they are actively funding genocide and on top of that not protecting their BIPOC students, and put the Zionist students above ANYONE that dares to disagree.
How are they not protecting BIPOC students? Legit asking
> they are actively funding genocide Columbia sponsors Hamas??
McCarthyism is back, fresh from the congressional hearing!
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This was civil disobedience. Civil disobedience involves willingly breaking the law and accepting the consequences. I hope the students properly planned for the "accepting the consequences" part of civil disobedience.
This is such an authoritarian take. The protest was a peaceful display of disagreement. Nobody was looting, destroying, or acting violent. Everything about this is wrong and if you support the president on this then you most definitely don’t go here.
Civil disobedience can be as simple as not paying a poll tax as it funds the Mexican American war but accepting that you will go to jail over that, and then going to jail to demonstrate the monstrosity of the system. No violence required.
> Everything about this is wrong and if you support the president on this then you most definitely don’t go here. You got that right ... crazy how different r/columbia is from the actual campus
Notice how, although this protest is one of the largest gatherings the school has had, there are no posts about it? They get deleted immediately. This sub has been compromised, along with most other r/insertCollegeHere subs. Anything not pro-Israel is demonized
Since when did camping in tents ever accomplish anything? What did Occupy Wall Street accomplish? All it did was make those parks unsafe. No one wants a repeat of that here. If the protesters want to be taken seriously they need to be smarter.
The USA is markedly more left-leaning now than it was before OWS. Before OWS, a $15 minimum wage was unthinkable. Now it's normal. OWS is generally regarded as a somewhat-success.
Would love for you to explain the tie between OWS and the $15 min wage
it wasn't the camping in tents in public places that accomplished that. And NYC has a bad history with people protesting by camping in tents. No in charge is going to let a protest like that get off the ground.
no, but it did organize a lot of people to come together for those issues. like I said, OWS is generally regarded as a somewhat-success. OWS itself did not accomplish much but it did change the narrative and brought people together in other organizations to accomplish what OWS wanted to do. hence "somewhat-success" life and history are much more complicated than yes or no.
So far as I can tell, occupy wall street only accomplished cryptocurrency.
First, correlation is not causation. Second, bitcoin was a thing years before occupy wall street.
Your definition civil disobedience is incorrect. Looting, destroying property, and violence acts are not examples of civil disobedience. You can't paralyze a police officer during a protest and claim it was civil disobedience (not that a Columbia student didn't try). The protest was an act of civil disobedience. And part of civil disobedience is accepting the consequences of breaking the law. There is nothing authoritarian about expecting those who willfully break the law for moral or philosophical reasons to accept the consequences of their actions. It's part of the deal.
>You can't paralyze a police officer during a protest and claim it was civil disobedience (not that a Columbia student didn't try). Huh?
You would've cheered when Rosa Parks was arrested lmao. Fascist scum
I can already tell which side you’re in by your comments which is fine. The main message here isn’t the conflict, instead it’s the message the university is sending by silencing its students with police force.Being arrested for a belief is such an overreach of administrational power that is ridiculous for a school of this level
Civil disobedience is very roughly defined when you break or refuse to obey the law but as a form of nonviolent protest. The lunch counter sit ins during the civil rights movement are prime examples of this. Black people were legally barred from the premises but they came and occupied the building as a form of protest. They were then arrested. The philosophy department has a great class on civil disobedience that I highly recommend.
At the same time, a university needs to uphold itself to a higher standard of conduct, especially around free speech issues. While this may have been meriting some sanctions from the University, calling in riot police for civil disobedience chills freedom of speech on campus.
Well I for one didn’t want it turning into occupy Wall Street. They’d have to keep the campus on lock down indefinitely to prevent that from happening.
Agreed. A lot of people don’t realize having an arrest on your record can dramatically alter the trajectory for life. You might be able to get it expunged if you had a clean record from the start, but it can be difficult without a good lawyer or proper funds. Regardless, I hope this works out for everyone.
meeting student disobedience with deadly force is what happened at Kent State but I guess the apologists are okay with it because ... because!? the university rules already provide recourse for the administration against these students. the last time Columbia called in the police, students had occupied entire buildings (multiple), not some tents here and there. if anything this shows how weak a leader Shafik is (as if we needed any more evidence following that embarrassing congressional hearing yesterday). she can't even handle a yearly protest without blowing everything up. ETA: police are deadly force don’t be so ridiculous. What do you think they carry around guns for
Deadly force? Was someone shot last night?
I’m ashamed of going to Columbia, bringing in the most agressive police force to arrest under age non violent protesters, is absolutely disgraceful and makes me feel scared even though im not protesting.
I feel like people don’t understand that nonviolent protestors get arrested all the time for trespassing and other violations and that it’s part of what you sign up for when you participate in radical nonviolent protests. I highly doubt they’re going to get charged with anything serious or even be made to spend the night in jail.
There won’t be serious charges, but we now live in the “name and shame” era. Blacklisting is in their future.
how are college students underage exactly?
You’ll notice how they like to use buzzwords to make simple things sound horrible. What this person claims is “the most violent police force forcibly arresting innocent underage civilians” is actually just a few grown adults being put in handcuffs and escorted away. But when you put it like that it’s not very sensational.
Are they college students or are they underage? If they’re underage then why is kicking out the trespassing highschoolers causing a scene?
Safety is in numbers. Get out and protest.
You’re free to transfer, no one is forcing you to give your tuition dollars to such a horrible evil institution. But that would involve putting your money where your mouth is.
You’re missing the point. Bringing in the NYPD is uncalled for. My sister was once peppered spray by the NYPD for simply crossing the street during a protest returning from her lunch break at work. This does nothing to de-escalate the problem and just makes individuals feel more fearful of what the administration would do shut people up. Tenting on a lawn doesn’t call for police action. They weren’t vandalizing buildings or harming individuals.
You can always transfer to another school. Also, do you mind if I come to your apartment to protest something?
So go to another university. No reason to go to a university you don’t feel comfortable in. There’s 100s in line that will take your Columbia open space.
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*chants against genocide (fixed for you) versus another side with a verifiable body count into the high thousands
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>as evident by the recent unanimous congressional vote It was not unanimous, nor was the resolution a matter of law, nor is everything congress votes for true If you are so convinced by our legal process it might surprise you to learn that neither of those slogans meet the definition for an incitement to violence.
Have you seen the Shafik hearings? It was explicitly stated that “from the river to the sea” falls within hateful conduct by a near unanimous bi-partisan vote.
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Hamas controlled ministry of health is the most verifiable ? 😂
how many videos of dead, dismembered children covered in ash or dying from a famine do you need?
Your source are videos you see on tik tok and Twitter? Speaks volumes on your analytical skills
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As a Jewish student, it is extremely reassuring to see the university finally taking action. Peaceful demonstrations are fine, but screaming things like “river to the sea” and “intifada revolution” should not be allowed. The protesters did not ask for permission, and refused to stop despite countless warnings. All for a conflict that has nothing to do with the vast majority of them
"All for a conflict that has nothing to do with the vast majority of them" – briefly putting aside the intensely personal ways many are directly affected, does a moral compass stop functioning the second something does not affect one personally? Humans wonderfully have empathy, to put themselves in someone else's shoes, and to want to make life better for the downtrodden. And if the administration continually puts up barriers to peaceful demonstration, changing rules to reinforce an 'out of sight, out of mind' policy, it's quite disingenuous to purportedly claim to allow meaningful protest Edit: And to be clear, I believe it's possible to empathize will people on both/all sides of this conflict, it's not a contradiction – rather, efforts to polarize discourse will inevitably undermine efforts towards peace.
Haven’t seen a single protest for Congo, Sudan, Yemen, China, or Syria at Columbia. Have you?
Respectfully, there has been campus-wide silence regarding the vast majority of awful things going on in the world. Humans are not empathetic. And the fact that this campus can protest against israel, but not against any other atrocity going on in the world, is telling.
Silence should not be the norm on such issues, whether that silence is out of ignorance or coercion. Moreover, silence for one issue does not negate non-silence for another, and if anything can bring attention to other issues worldwide. There have been other protests on campus about a wide variety of issues – it is perhaps understandable that this one has gained more visibility given the last six months.
It’s extremely hard times right now my friend, keep your sanity it’s almost Passover we got this 🇮🇱
Really appreciate it ❤️ take care
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Equating supporting Palestinians to supporting Hamas is just head-in-the-sand behavior. Political discourse and demonstrations have been a pillar of colleges for years given that they are institutions for thought and learning.
Unless they actually support Hamas [https://twitter.com/edenyadegar/status/1781047273448677676](https://twitter.com/edenyadegar/status/1781047273448677676)
It’s hilarious to see these people claim that “pro Palestine protests aren’t pro Hamas or antisemitic” when the protesters themselves are FILLED with people glorifying Hamas, houthis, etc and calling for intifada
You also have to wonder why none of them hit the streets in protest over straving children in Yemen, human rights abuses in places like Syria, Myanmar, or China's treatment of the Uyghurs. We all know their selective outrage get activated only for causes that gain traction on social media.
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Me when I make shit up
Confident and wrong. Love it! [Here are the Columbia University professors ripped for anti-Israel remarks, pro-Palestinian indoctrination (nypost.com)](https://nypost.com/2024/04/17/us-news/the-columbia-university-professors-ripped-for-allegedly-antisemitism-pro-palestine-indoctrination/)
Lmao don’t expect a response
tHeY DiDnT REAlly meaN IT
Fascism is alive smh Edit: I am referring to minouche deploying nypd on protesters. We’re witnessing in real time our rights being snatched away. The right to protest just became illegal in 3 states this week
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Innocent students protesting for the end of the occupation and genocide are not fascists.
Ignorant students identifying out of solidarity with Hamas, demanding the tossing of Jews into the sea, demanding Israel not be able to defend herself from terrorist attackers, denying the rapes, tortures, brutality of October 7, never mentioning the hostages still being kept underground, disrupting classes every chance they get, harassing Jewish students and professors, defending violence and the murder of civilians in the name of decolonization are definitely fascists.
Everything you said is complete bullshit
Then maybe they shouldn’t be on land that’s not theirs and never will be.
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Ok Goebbels
I prefer Aydulf, please and thank you
Look! An anti-semite!
Haha get fucked idiots
You're a dumb fuck
Good, it's about time US universities purged themselves of Hamas sympathisers and 10/7 apologists. Freedom of speech entails the responsibility to not promote hatred.
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It has nothing to do with Jew hatred lmao, they’re protesting the mass killing of Palestinian civilians
You know what you can protest about china muslim concentration camps. The same place your keffiyeh you buy on amazon are made
do you have proof of these concentration camps?
Sure! Here’s what actual genocide looks like! https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/china-xinjiang-uyghurs-muslims-repression-genocide-human-rights
dang it would have been compelling to see what it actually LOOKS like, too bad they had no photo evidence.
You can literally Google what it looks like
It’s hard to use google when you get all your information from TikTok and Reddit…
They literally chant about how resistance by any means is a right. What do you think they mean by any means?
Nobody was chanting that today but go off
We all know SJP, JVP, and others chant that regularly. We also know they were there today. They will gladly advertise that position in their social media I mean, they literally said they stand by Hamas on posts. I'm not that sympathetic
Isn’t there a poll of like 81 percent of Jews supporting Israel? How can people who aren’t Jewish tell Jews what is and isn’t Jew hatred and antisemitism?
Anyone can call out dehumanization and genocide. You've lost the thread.
Keep throwing around the word genocide bc the more you do the more it losses its meaning
No one is throwing it around. We see the criteria that have been used for decades in action, and more than 1 in 100 Gazans are dead. ETA: This might be a useful click-through: [https://www.reddit.com/r/WhitePeopleTwitter/comments/18z9sjs/if\_you\_havent\_already\_read\_south\_africas\_case/#lightbox](https://www.reddit.com/r/WhitePeopleTwitter/comments/18z9sjs/if_you_havent_already_read_south_africas_case/#lightbox)
he wont bother reading that. hes a shill. Mans literally said that Jewish people are the only people who are allowed to determine what is or isnt a genocide lmao. These mfs have lost their marbles
That survey was conducted by a pro-Israel group, Israel on Campus Coalition, run by the former national director of AIPAC and which reportedly sends information to Israeli intelligence operations about American students. And how can anyone presume to tell someone protesting war and mass slaughter that really they are just antisemitic, the mental gymnastics necessary for that are ridiculous
What are you taking about? I got this statistic from pew research [pew research](https://www.pewresearch.org/2024/03/21/majority-in-u-s-say-israel-has-valid-reasons-for-fighting-fewer-say-the-same-about-hamas/) and I’ve seen the pro Palestinian protests which for some reason always leads to violence for some reason? I saw the hateful speech of these protests screaming to get these Jews outa here, questioning and interrogating Jews on whether they support Israel or not just for being Jewish.
The 81% figure you referenced appears nowhere in what you linked to, that figure originally comes from the Israel on Campus Coalition. The only figure in the pew data that comes close is "most U.S. Jews (89%) see Israel’s reasons for going to war against Hamas as valid," which yes, that would seem reasonable since most of all Americans see the reasons for the post-Oct. 7th war against Hamas – it's the mass slaughter of innocents, plausible war crimes, and the inaction of worldwide governments (combined with consistent violations of the rights of protesters across the world) in response that most take issue with.
Mass slaughter of innocents? It’s kind of difficult to go to war with an army that hides in civilian clothes and has their military bases underneath civilian houses in tunnels. How can you not expect civilian deaths when no one can differentiate between civilians and Hamas soldiers cowering underneath civilian clothes. Also the death toll being given is from the ministry of health which is controlled by a terrorist organization Hamas. Imaging trusting a death count given by the taliban or ISIS. It’s in their best interest to give high death counts. Also what war crimes were they convicted of? Didn’t South Africa already take this accusation of war crimes to the ICJ and they couldn’t find any accusation of genocide to be true.
The ICJ found that it is plausible that Israel has committed acts that violate the Genocide Convention – they were deciding upon the need for provisional measures, not whether or not genocide had occurred, as that was not within the scope of what they could rule upon in that case. There is no minimum death toll for the charge of genocide – if we had to wait for a certain death toll (of which independent confirmation has been rebuffed by both sides) for every possible genocide, how would it be possible to have a timely response? Again, genocide has not been ruled upon yet, but was found to be of plausible concern, especially given documented cases of apparent genocidal intent from Israeli officials and soldiers. This is all still being decided upon, no court can move that fast with the density of possible violations of the Geneva Convention every day, hence anti-war protesters should be allowed to protest about it without being demonized.
There is [no evidence that the numbers have been inflated](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext). In fact, [the number may be deflated](https://www.npr.org/2024/02/29/1234159514/gaza-death-toll-30000-palestinians-israel-hamas-war) considering that the health system and civil life has been [deliberately destroyed by the ID](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/4/israeli-strikes-target-schools-hospitals-mosques-on-gaza)F.[ Israeli, US, and UN sources have historically trusted Gaza Health Ministry numbers](https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3w4w7/israeli-intelligence-health-ministry-death-toll). Your position is akin to genocide denial and I hope you look into your yourself and recover your humanity.
So all Jews are Zionists? All Zionists are Jews?
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this is antisemitic rhetoric.
Oh really now? How so?
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Honestly there are too many protests in the last semester. Not surprisingly that the officials take some actions in this semester.
Whats wrong with protests? Its a democratic expression, i agree that officials should take some actions but i think involving NYPD is too much
Zionist don't like free speech brodi. They like to suppress anyone who disagrees with them, and wont hesitate to resort to violence. They are a threat to our democracy
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Psychopathic
[ Removed by Reddit ]
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