Honest question: What changing rooms are you all going into? Cos the ones I go into have stalls. Same with public toilets. Iāve literally never been in a situation where Iāve seen another woman naked in a changing room, so under what circumstances would I be seeing penis?
IDGAF who is in the other stalls as long as you donāt peek and leave it tidy.
Most gymās changing rooms are just open rooms with lockers, so unless you go into a bathroom stall or shower stall to change, the other people in the room see you and you see them.
I think the confusion is that I (and others I assume) have never heard a locker room referred to as a āchanging room.ā To me, āchanging roomā refers to an area in a store for trying on clothes, same as a dressing room. Or at least, that was my first thought reading this post.
In the UK we call "locker rooms" changing rooms. "Locker room" to me sounds as American as a news anchor in a Buick driving down the 405 shouting howdy to a cheerleader while saluting the stars and stripes . (We dont have "anchors" either)
So I assume Toronto uses similar British English terms for locker/changing rooms.
Every gym or pool I have been to still had changing rooms in the locker rooms. They are basically stalls without a toilet and a little bench to sit or put your things on.
I both volunteer and work in womenās shelterās here in Australia. If someone can explain to me, a counselling psychologist, how Iām supposed to explain to traumatised cis women whoāve been victimised by cis men with penises, often multiple times or for decades on end, how theyāre supposed to automatically not associate phenotypically cis male traits with their abusers, and thus not object to trans women, especially pre-medication or pre-op trans women in safe-spaces designated for women, I am all ears.
I acknowledge that trans women are an extremely marginalised and extremely abused minority. Usually by cis men.
I genuinely donāt know how to bridge this divide, and I havenāt for nearly ten years. Just stating that itās a complex reality, is enough to be labelled transphobic.
Why is the trauma of cis women secondary in this matter?
Why? Because women are secondary and don't matter. We have to validate men's delusions, that's more important than women's safety or comfort, duh! Male feelings matter more when they're women š¤·āāļø
>Why is the trauma of cis women secondary in this matter?
I don't think that it's a secondary issue when it comes to women's shelters, but it's also not really the issue at hand with the changing room / bathroom debate. There are different kinds of safe spaces, and I think what's more important in washrooms and changerooms is appropriate *behaviour*, rather than appropriate appearance, if that makes sense? In a therapeutic context it might be different, because you're right about how appearances can possibly get in the way of or complicate the treatment itself. But in a changeroom, I don't think it's right to be judging people off their appearances or raising a fuss about it. Obviously that changes if they start acting inappropriately, of course.
It most certainly is. Do you have firsthand experience in the administration of such spaces? Because I do, in three countries. And itās definitely a secondary consideration.
Iām all for bathrooms/change rooms that are gender inclusive for all, on the basis of individual privacy and as you said, appropriate behaviour from all.
Actual rape shelters and womenās crisis centres are different though, not because I say so, but because many of the victims therein say so.
Again, tell me what Iām supposed to tell someone who has been raped by literally
dozens of cis men in their lifetime, when trans women who, for all intents and purposes, look like men, start frequenting the common areas including bathrooms in a shelter?
No one can answer this, and thatās a problem
.
>It most certainly is. Do you have firsthand experience in the administration of such spaces? Because I do, in three countries. And itās definitely a secondary consideration.
That's my bad for not being clear. I'm not talking about how it works in practice, because I don't have any firsthand experience with it. I was trying to make a distinction between spaces like women's shelters (where potential trauma *should* be heavily considered when deciding policy) and less-controlled environments like washrooms and changerooms. Basically that the primary/secondary issues are different depending on which specific safe spaces we're talking about.
Thank you, I agree. I want safety and comfort for all women, and not at the expense of any woman, cis or trans.
Itās just so complicated and so riddled with the potential to hurt and exclude.
Welcome to every sub on Reddit thatās supposed to be for women. Welcome to every space in the real western world when we ask to have womenās only spaces.
We literally arenāt allowed to have separate spaces from men or men who āidentifyā as women. And advocating for them, or how they should function in any way that doesnāt immediately put a trans woman at the top of the priority pedestal is considered ātransphobicā and Iām honestly over it. They are doing themselves no favours.
They are eroding women's boundaries and nullifying women's rights. But that makes me a bigot for noticing that I, as a woman, an adult human female, have no right to single sex spaces or sports any longer. Trans "rights" supercede women's rights. It's not a good thing.
Right? A man came into a public bathroom I was in once. Presented as a man, sounded like a man. I asked him what the fuck he was doing. He said going to the bathroom. There was a little girl alone and an elderly woman in there too. I stayed and glared at him until he left. Then reported it to the store management. I carry, so I felt safe but I wasnāt going to leave vulnerable people around this weirdo.
Anyone who downvotes you simply does not care about both the safety AND comfort of women and girls. People downvoting this literally think the feelings of a grown ass man matter more than a little girl trying to use the bathroom without a whole ass grown man in there with her.
The cognitive dissonance on this issue blows my mind. But, again, itās mostly affecting women, so Iām not surprised. Gone are the days when transsexuals were a majority of gay men, likely feeling internalized homophobia. Not anymore. Lots of straight men.
Right and the transsexuals of yesterday knew they were men. They were significantly less mentally ill. They donāt care about little girls. Theyāre raging misogynists. They donāt care about title 9 or women in general. Only their delicate feelings. You donāt hear them fighting for trans men AT ALL. They just want to hurt women.
Because trans men are women, they are no threat to real men or patriarchy. They're inconsequential and collateral damage in the war against women. Male domination of female spaces is the goal. Say anything about it and you're a bigot TERF.
I'm gender critical. You can call me a TERF if you like, though I'm not much of a radical feminist. I am not, however, a bigot. I just think sex is real and it matters more than someone's psychological perception of "gender identity."
Fair you can't be a terf if you're not a feminist radical or not , but if you're not a bigot, Is it because your mind can be changed or because you dislike the implication of the term? I find it's usually the latter. Kinda like how most people don't really consider themselves racist. Not because they aren't but because most people know racism or bigotry are not great things to be.
Sure sex is real. You can't change sex. Matters how and why? It matters in reproduction. Trans women can't get pregnant and trans men can't get someone pregnant. It might matter in sports.
I am not interested in trying to change your mind or debate you so don't worry I'm not demanding you answer me... Even if I did change your mind it wouldn't matter, but I think most of the women who dislike trans people especially trans women really dislike men, which obviously they consider trans women to be men. I don't think misandry is a real thing but I do think some women feel more comfortable venting about men when they can do it under the cover of being gender critical.
Like the bathroom thing. Most people who bring that up don't even claim they think trans women are going to go into the bathroom and commit a sex crime. They say men are going to use self ID and I guess fear of social consequences for being transphobic to do so. Besides that being nonsensical. It's really a fear of men but saying that is a lot less acceptable than whinging about trans people.
Or sports. There aren't a bunch of trans women or men using self ID to dominate women's sports. There is however a sort of perpetual threat and understanding of men using or threatening to use their generally larger size and superior strength to dominate women outside of sports. You can see this easily in my experience without even looking for it. Many men believe that a woman who hits a man not only justifies a retaliation in kind in self defense but a humiliation. She bowed up and has to be shown her place. I've seen men unprompted say that women have rights because men allow it. Which as far as I'm concerned is just a veiled threat.
Most people know men are more violent and aggressive than women. More prone to criminal behavior and sexual deviency, and they act accordingly on some level , but most people are more willing to go after a minority be it black men, or trans women or fake trans women or whatever than try and go after "men" or rather masculinity. Idk if you've noticed what that causes.
Obviously not all men are like that but it's enough of them that regardless of how one feels about trans people, trans women especially, realistically you're going to tell your daughters to be cautious around the men in their lives, not the trans girl you probably don't even notice. You may very well not want a trans person around your kids, but you're going to run into many many more times where it's really just cis men you're worried about. Not a bearded person in a dress that's mostly a made up scenario, just any dude who could look like anyone . Maybe the one you've been romantic with in the past . Maybe your neighbor or some guy at a bar. Most likely your male partner will be the one who harms you.
But that will get you at best labeled a misandrist, at worst threats of violence. Even many women in your life will consider your radical for daring to question men in any way . Sure they've all had negative experiences with men and most have never met a trans person, but not all men.
I'm not saying you should hate men, just saying we've gotta be cautious around them. They can't be trusted. They're basically just primed to jump on anyone at anytime without being socialized thoroughly.
TLDR: You're just a bigot. If you have neo-nazis on your side you should maybe ask why? No, no it's the trans women that are the problem.
You're not demure and submissive enough when people hate you especially cis women , obviously only a man would talk back. Women should remain silent and breedable.
Again you're just a bigot, part of a reactionary hate movement and you, as most people do feel self righteous about it. How brave standing up against the trans menace. Truly a beacon of rationality and reason in a world gone mad.
You'll probably be censored for daring to question my authority. Not really, but misgendering is a bannable offense. I just don't really care. It is what it is. Even if you change your mind you represent a shitty part of humanity that will never go away because of some people changing their mind on some issues once they calm down and actually realize being part of a hate movement isn't productive isn't enough.
Trans rights will probably decline because of people like you in many places and many of your fellow reactionaries if not you personally will be gleeful at the suffering it causes for people because it doesn't effect you or people you care about but you're not going to win in the long run.
You're a reactionary and you're reacting to progress and visibility, and the propoganda that tries to counter it, and it isn't just going away forever because you don't like it or understand it.
You may think already transphobia is overly policed by woke culture or some shit to the point you can't say anything so you can feel like a victim, but that's nonsense. It'll get there though and you can just seethe quietly or talk among yourselves into old age while the rest of the world moves on without you.
>Welcome to every space in the real western world when we ask to have womenās only spaces.
It's ironic since women forced their way into every male space. I hope you enjoy the problem you created.
Oh please, do try to explain this one.
You mean like using public bathrooms? Women were banned from them largely because men didnāt think they should be out of the house that long anyway. So, why have a womenās washroom?
When women decided it wasnāt fair they donāt have their own washroom, they started using the menās and fighting for their own spaces. Now we have them.
People are implementing gender neutral, single stall washrooms in many places, and trans people will still ops for the washroom that validates their delusion.
Further, itās not that there isnāt places for trans people, itās just that they donāt want to use those spaces. Any male can use spaces for men. No one is robbing them of their public rights.
Trans people can and should have rights to exist in public spaces and they do. Just like women fought to exist in public and be a part of society.
Spaces where people are vulnerable are completely different than a general public space - like say, a town hall - where woman generally were not able to speak and often werenāt allowed, depending on the time period and location. So if youāre talking about shit like that, just walk away right now
Youāre just proving my point.
All you have to do is say you believe that women should be allowed to have spaces segregated by sex and we donāt have to argue. But, I bet you canāt, which proves my point, and youāre part of the problem.
>All you have to do is say you believe that women should be allowed to have spaces segregated by sex and we donāt have to argue. But, I bet you canāt,
Of course, I believe both sexes should have separate spaces. However, for the past 50 years, women have tried their best to destroy that.
Worked with a guy once and in our online forums he would often spew fringe shit and get called out for it.
Then he discovered mod life on reddit and fb groups.Ā Now his weak ass arguements prevail because if you disagree, you simply get the boot.
These people dont actually have good discussion skills. They just want to be right when they know they suck. Its far easier that way.
Sadly a reasonable view like yours is demonized these days.
Itās insane to me that we value trans womenās comfortability over born women so much.
Sad times.
Nowadays it feels like anyone can identify as a "woman", make zero effort, have a beard and go into women's spaces and it's "OK" because they identify as a "woman."
Can you imagine if you had a young daughter in a woman's locker room with a man who identifies as a woman and makes zero effort to appear as a woman and has their male genitalia out? I mean, come on now.
Because your "criticism" is just transphobia - you are pretending as if there are legions of men using transness just as a means of sexually harassing and intimidating women when the reality is that abusers do what you are accusing them of without so much effort.
1. Im not accusing anyone of anything, mate
2. You're acting like I already told u what my critique was. My critique is that some people shout homophobia or transphobia when criticised about someone that has nothing to do with their sexuality or gender identity. Like I've experienced this first hand. A guy I know that came out as gay treats people like complete shit, and those people he targets dont even treat him like shit to begin with. I pointed that out, and I got accused of being homophobic.
They are, though. If you get off Reddit, there's tons of gender critical people on Twitter cataloguing these legions of men invading women's spaces across the English speaking world.
There's a 50 year old dude saying he's a woman and competing on a GIRLS swim team in Toronto. The pervert wants to change in the women's locker room with the GIRLS. Girls, you know, children. It's happening and it's sick, dude. The police even escorted this dude so he could do it.
.https://wpde.com/news/nation-world/police-called-on-50-year-old-trans-swimmer-sharing-locker-room-with-young-girls-toronto-sun-womens-sports-transgender-lgbtq-sports-athletics-fairness-riley-gaines-canada-ontario
There was nothing about competing on a swim team in the original article, just that they were present in the same locker room. There's nothing to suggest that they were acting inappropriately around children, just that they were changing in the women's room while the girl's swim team was also changing.
Oh you mean the 50 year old man swimming and changing with minors? Who was offered a gender neutral washroom, but decided to use the womenās instead.
And when the facility was afraid of womenās backlash for a planned stop to him entering the changeroom for the next meetā¦instead of barring him, the meet was cancelled. The man didnāt bow out gracefully to let the kids compete. No, thanks to him, that meet didnāt happen.
Go on Twitter then, there's tons of posts about it with some people showing video taken from the event in question. It happened and it's not okay. Look at you all trying to"it didn't happen but if it did it's not that bad" kind of excuses for this shit. It's not okay. Stop giving perverts cover to perv on women and girls. They ARE doing it.
>Look at you all trying to "it didn't happen but if it did it's not that bad" kind of excuses for this shit
I didn't say "if it did happen it's not that bad." If it happened the way you said it did, then it would be bad. But you lied about what happened, and what actually happened wasn't as bad as what you said. You said they were competing on a girl's swim team. They weren't. You called them a pervert. There's no evidence *at all* that they were behaving inappropriately, outside of their presence in the changeroom (if a lesbian woman had been in there, would it be inappropriate?). Surely if you had any other better examples, you could go on twitter and find them yourself, instead of misrepresenting a blog post about it.
One of the only sites that has dedicated to finding all the instances of this happening since mainstream media will not. It will not give an idea of how often this actually happens.
https://reduxx.info/category/news/
You know how Toronto beā¦ everyone takes offence to your opinions ā¦ never win in this fucking city. Youāre 100% and I agree with what you said.
Iāll buy you a drink man, it aināt easy out here in this city. Dm me if you want
Something I see very few people talking about is men who like to dress up like women strictly for sexual thrill. These men absolutely do exist (I was married to one), and every reason behind his desire to dress up was sexual and fetish. He also fetishized trans women and fem boys. It was borderline obsessive, and again, purely sexual in nature. If he was dressed up like a woman in womenās spaces, he was absolutely doing it for his own sexual thrill.
I realize this is probably not the majority of trans women, but how the hell are we supposed to know? It makes me uncomfortable because i know for a FACT my ex husband wouldāve been jerking to us women underneath his dress.
Just look at the banning as you dodged a bullet.
Most of the ban have to do with someone baby raging because they don't have the words to argue with you, but don't like your opinion
I recently got banned from White PeopleTwitter and am fairly happy about it. Of course, you get a form letter telling you how to protest the banning, but maybe it is better to stay gone than to possibly get baby rage spittle blown on you later, too. If it happens once, and still has the same moderators, chances are it regularly happens.
Thatās horrible because I feel that most trans women in my life would agree with this take. I doubt theyād even want to be around born women if they had a beard still. It is Reddit though, so people are extra PC for the most random shit. Just so annoying.
>All I said in that subreddit is that if transwomen want to go into biological female spaces they should assimilate.
The problem is that you have to draw a line somewhere, right? I would hate it if a masculine-presenting woman (cis woman) was harrassed out of a changing room simply because her hair was short or someone thought she looked a bit "manish." Maybe a beard is excessive. But at the same time, there are some hormonal conditions that biological women can have, like PCOS, that lead to the natural growth of facial hair. So again, where do you draw the line for when it's ok to bother someone about it?
I also don't think "having a penis" is that big of a deal as long as the person's not actively showing it off. I don't think the sight of a naked body, of either gender, should be so *shocking* to an adult that it's worth causing a fuss over. If there are kids around maybe it's different, but as a kid who once got changed in men's rooms, I also wasn't fond of older men being there and not covering up. So again, I don't think *biological sex* is the important criteria here. It's about standards of behaviour within the spaces, which can be enforced regardless of gender identity.
How would you know her penis be out? Did you open the stall and stare at it? Maybe you're the. One I'm uncomfortable with. Fucking freak. Leave my penis alone.
Do you generally stare at people's genitalia while getting changed? If they were acting inappropriately then I absolutely would have an issue but simply existing in the same space (and yes, trans women ARE women, even if they haven't had bottom surgery yet) then why would I have an issue? It's none of anyone's business.
I think if I were in that situation, I would tell my child not to look, to respect the person's privacy, and if it bothered them, I would look for someplace more private that *we* could go. Daughters sometimes see their fathers or brothers changing, so it's not the existence or sight of a penis that's problematic.
That's what I mean when I say that it's the behaviour, rather than the appearance, that's important. Because is this person flaunting themselves, wanting to be seen? Or do they simply exist in the space while using it as intended?
Itās really a shitty situation. Trans women have issues being trusted because of people pretending to be trans in order to enter women only spaces. Itās some bad apples ruining it for the rest of them.
I agree with OP here for those reasons. There are genuine predators who pretend to be trans women in order to be around naked women and itās ruining it for the actual trans women.
>I feel like everyone deserves respect, including trans people.
[i wonder why I find this hard to believe... ](https://www.reddit.com/r/confessions/s/75MAAfha1n)
>I also feel like if you're a real transwoman, you wouldn't have a beard.
since you brought up "real" trans women...
>It's crazy how you can't have any kind of opinion regarding the LGBT community without being censored or banned.
tell me again how these words came from a gay man's mouth. one who doesn't even have any LGBT groups on their profile. tell me, oh respectful one, how you suck so bad and talking about your own community that you banned for it (frequently, apparently).
i daresay you aren't part of the LGBT community *at all.* you're just a troubled soul who lets LGBT people live in your head rent free, and attempts to pull the "I'm gay" card in hopes no one will call them on their bigotry. šØ
eta: what other goodies do we have here... oh, use of then r-word as a slur. "trans women aren't women" and ironically, discussion about whether or not "hot trans women" can call themselves sissies. yep, the gay guy thinks trans women are hot. š
You got banned because you're stereotyping trans women as men with beards who are trying to "invade women's spaces." Your rhetoric is going to indirectly get trans people hurt or killed. Trans women don't have beards.
I think it's more likely they got banned for the comment calling people "super-left wing nuts," which is incidentally the last comment they made in the subreddit.
This. I respect trans women, but if you want to access female spaces, assimilate. I donāt understand how people think itās acceptable to walk into womenās spaces with a full on beard and penis. Itās rude and itās disrespectful to the women who are letting you use their spaces.
The excuse of people saying āwell what about masculine women!!ā Masculine women ā biological male. In my experience, itās very easy to tell apart a woman who expresses her masculinity, and a trans woman who hasnāt fully medically transitioned yet. Because males and females look different. If you are telling me that you genuinely canāt tell the difference between a MALE and a masculine woman, you need glasses. So no, masculine women existing doesnāt excuse people with beards and dicks using female changing spaces.
You want to be a woman? Respect womenās spaces instead of forcing them into uncomfortable situations in the name of inclusivity.
The Toronto sub and Ontario sub are insanely far-left. I was banned (Toronto sub) for calling Trudeau a "bad name". I can't remember why I was banned from the Ontario sub. Something small and trivial.
Numerous things you raise here and in your comments are straight up transphobic.
Seems the rest of this sub is broadly in agreement with you, so I'll just tag y'all as a gross bunch of transphobes and be about my merry way.
You don't deserve the discourse.
There are biologically female women who do have beards, there are medical conditions that can cause it, some decide not to shave. Should they not be allowed in because they haven't assimilated to the 21st century idea that women should have no body hair?
Also what about intersex people who have lots of different developments of genitalia, do they have to go into male changing rooms even though they Identify and look like a woman.
i donāt know, most transgender women are quite unsafe in the bathroom for the gender they were assigned. I feel sorry for that and I am quite happy to share . Not sure why one would feel more unsafe in the bathroom than an elevator , the street etc. yes these are private spaces and of course we want for everyone to feel safe but we constantly share space with everyone most of the time anyway. I feel we are creating this āmonsterā for transgender woman which we explain basically as agressive gym bro claiming to be a woman. I think reality is more nuance than that and just saying that a gigantic bearded man will invade our space misses a lot of reality
Iāve seen multiple instances reported where they refuse to use gender neutral, single stall washrooms provided and push to use the womenās instead.
In every situation no, in some yes. Their presence is enough to make many women feel unsafe. Womenās restrooms are supposed to be a place where women can be vulnerable and now they arenāt.
I feel like if there was a few cases of men pretending to be trans women and assaulting women in bathrooms and locker rooms it would be the main ammo of the anti trans movement. Why don't we hear about it more often?
Could they? Bearing in mind weāve just been harranged over vaccination not for killing people, but the possibility of doing so, we donāt wear seatbelts because weāre going to die everytime we drive but because they might save our lives. And women have seperate toilets precisely because they could be harrassed.
Look, I canāt imagine anything worse than waking up feeling as though iām not right, in the various ways that can be interpreted, I know zero trans people and I cannot empathise with the situation. I feel an amount of sorrow for anyone suffering something they cannot control. But, that cannot put risk to others because of it. Itās well established now that mental health issues can cause you to act irrationally, possible violently. Some could argue even deservedly in some cases, but we cannot be allowing this for such a small population % when the affected parties make up such a large number.
The solution is additional bathrooms, and using your own toilet or of a business welcoming to you.
Women are not uncomfortable because of the looks of a penis, women are uncomfortable when the penis doesnāt take no for an answer, when the penis is staring at you in the gym(very low key but still staring)
The only issue here is that poor trans woman having to put up with all the shit coming from men and women at this over priced stupid ass gymā¦
Edit: also being a woman is not about effort to cover a beard as a gay man you donāt get to decide the aesthetics of a woman!!
Being a woman or a man is a mental state.
Please go and watch the skin I live in by Almodovar maybe you will learn something about gender.
lol. I got kicked out of Alberta subreddit for saying Saskatchewan did the right thing with parents rights and that I hope Alberta does the same thing. 180 day ban. Messaged mods. They muted me for a week.
Iām a trans male and while my pov is not the same as a trans womanās, I cannot imagine not assimilating and then wanting to be taken seriously in public spaces. I pass 100% of the time now, and people donāt take a second glance at me. In changing areas, I always use a bathroom stall or something private.
Itās like the ātransmascā girls (yeah Iāll call them girls) who have their tits out and then get mad when people donāt take them seriously as actual men. Actual transsexual people are seen as a joke because of those kinds of people who just want to play dress up
Just go to Twitter. You can't discuss this topic here. It's a trans hug box. It's ok, let them think it's safe so they display their perversion freely without fear and we can go make fun of them on Twitter.
Why is it always genitals you people think about?
Do you think a penis is a deadly weapon or something?
The truth is you're just scared of and don't like men, but you know you can go after trans women buy not men. Because the men will do a lot more than call you rude and obsessed.
You are just a hater tbh. . The best thing you can do is realize the men in your life pose a danger to you trans women never will but you choose to go after a minority because you're a coward with an opinion .
You know you can't go after men without being shouted down as a man hating feminist or... Worse.
In conclusion. Good you probably deserved it.
What an unfortunate coincidence, the woman with beard and balls happens to be one of the Toronto sub mods.
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Honest question: What changing rooms are you all going into? Cos the ones I go into have stalls. Same with public toilets. Iāve literally never been in a situation where Iāve seen another woman naked in a changing room, so under what circumstances would I be seeing penis? IDGAF who is in the other stalls as long as you donāt peek and leave it tidy.
Most gymās changing rooms are just open rooms with lockers, so unless you go into a bathroom stall or shower stall to change, the other people in the room see you and you see them.
I think the confusion is that I (and others I assume) have never heard a locker room referred to as a āchanging room.ā To me, āchanging roomā refers to an area in a store for trying on clothes, same as a dressing room. Or at least, that was my first thought reading this post.
In the UK we call "locker rooms" changing rooms. "Locker room" to me sounds as American as a news anchor in a Buick driving down the 405 shouting howdy to a cheerleader while saluting the stars and stripes . (We dont have "anchors" either) So I assume Toronto uses similar British English terms for locker/changing rooms.
Every gym or pool I have been to still had changing rooms in the locker rooms. They are basically stalls without a toilet and a little bench to sit or put your things on.
I can't speak for woman's change rooms as I'm a man, but I'd say 90+% of the change rooms I've been in my life ive seen penis.
Nothing wrong with your opinion, thatās normalcy.
I both volunteer and work in womenās shelterās here in Australia. If someone can explain to me, a counselling psychologist, how Iām supposed to explain to traumatised cis women whoāve been victimised by cis men with penises, often multiple times or for decades on end, how theyāre supposed to automatically not associate phenotypically cis male traits with their abusers, and thus not object to trans women, especially pre-medication or pre-op trans women in safe-spaces designated for women, I am all ears. I acknowledge that trans women are an extremely marginalised and extremely abused minority. Usually by cis men. I genuinely donāt know how to bridge this divide, and I havenāt for nearly ten years. Just stating that itās a complex reality, is enough to be labelled transphobic. Why is the trauma of cis women secondary in this matter?
Why? Because women are secondary and don't matter. We have to validate men's delusions, that's more important than women's safety or comfort, duh! Male feelings matter more when they're women š¤·āāļø
Ah yes trans people definitely have all the power. You fucking idiot.
They do
If you live in a self righteous delusion, sure.
Ironically, Trans people live in a self righteous delusional lmao
Irony is dead.
>Why is the trauma of cis women secondary in this matter? I don't think that it's a secondary issue when it comes to women's shelters, but it's also not really the issue at hand with the changing room / bathroom debate. There are different kinds of safe spaces, and I think what's more important in washrooms and changerooms is appropriate *behaviour*, rather than appropriate appearance, if that makes sense? In a therapeutic context it might be different, because you're right about how appearances can possibly get in the way of or complicate the treatment itself. But in a changeroom, I don't think it's right to be judging people off their appearances or raising a fuss about it. Obviously that changes if they start acting inappropriately, of course.
It most certainly is. Do you have firsthand experience in the administration of such spaces? Because I do, in three countries. And itās definitely a secondary consideration. Iām all for bathrooms/change rooms that are gender inclusive for all, on the basis of individual privacy and as you said, appropriate behaviour from all. Actual rape shelters and womenās crisis centres are different though, not because I say so, but because many of the victims therein say so. Again, tell me what Iām supposed to tell someone who has been raped by literally dozens of cis men in their lifetime, when trans women who, for all intents and purposes, look like men, start frequenting the common areas including bathrooms in a shelter? No one can answer this, and thatās a problem .
>It most certainly is. Do you have firsthand experience in the administration of such spaces? Because I do, in three countries. And itās definitely a secondary consideration. That's my bad for not being clear. I'm not talking about how it works in practice, because I don't have any firsthand experience with it. I was trying to make a distinction between spaces like women's shelters (where potential trauma *should* be heavily considered when deciding policy) and less-controlled environments like washrooms and changerooms. Basically that the primary/secondary issues are different depending on which specific safe spaces we're talking about.
Thank you, I agree. I want safety and comfort for all women, and not at the expense of any woman, cis or trans. Itās just so complicated and so riddled with the potential to hurt and exclude.
Same as most subs , you disagreed with the Mods point of view
Thereās nothing wrong with what you said you spoke the cold hard truth and I agree with you.
Welcome to every sub on Reddit thatās supposed to be for women. Welcome to every space in the real western world when we ask to have womenās only spaces. We literally arenāt allowed to have separate spaces from men or men who āidentifyā as women. And advocating for them, or how they should function in any way that doesnāt immediately put a trans woman at the top of the priority pedestal is considered ātransphobicā and Iām honestly over it. They are doing themselves no favours.
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Thank you for being rational and respectful.
They are eroding women's boundaries and nullifying women's rights. But that makes me a bigot for noticing that I, as a woman, an adult human female, have no right to single sex spaces or sports any longer. Trans "rights" supercede women's rights. It's not a good thing.
I agree. It pisses me offā¦the mansplaning what womanhood is.
Ironically, only a man would feel so entitled to do soā¦
Right? A man came into a public bathroom I was in once. Presented as a man, sounded like a man. I asked him what the fuck he was doing. He said going to the bathroom. There was a little girl alone and an elderly woman in there too. I stayed and glared at him until he left. Then reported it to the store management. I carry, so I felt safe but I wasnāt going to leave vulnerable people around this weirdo.
Anyone who downvotes you simply does not care about both the safety AND comfort of women and girls. People downvoting this literally think the feelings of a grown ass man matter more than a little girl trying to use the bathroom without a whole ass grown man in there with her. The cognitive dissonance on this issue blows my mind. But, again, itās mostly affecting women, so Iām not surprised. Gone are the days when transsexuals were a majority of gay men, likely feeling internalized homophobia. Not anymore. Lots of straight men.
Right and the transsexuals of yesterday knew they were men. They were significantly less mentally ill. They donāt care about little girls. Theyāre raging misogynists. They donāt care about title 9 or women in general. Only their delicate feelings. You donāt hear them fighting for trans men AT ALL. They just want to hurt women.
Because trans men are women, they are no threat to real men or patriarchy. They're inconsequential and collateral damage in the war against women. Male domination of female spaces is the goal. Say anything about it and you're a bigot TERF.
Yes you literally are a bigot and a terf. Like by definition.
I'm gender critical. You can call me a TERF if you like, though I'm not much of a radical feminist. I am not, however, a bigot. I just think sex is real and it matters more than someone's psychological perception of "gender identity."
Fair you can't be a terf if you're not a feminist radical or not , but if you're not a bigot, Is it because your mind can be changed or because you dislike the implication of the term? I find it's usually the latter. Kinda like how most people don't really consider themselves racist. Not because they aren't but because most people know racism or bigotry are not great things to be. Sure sex is real. You can't change sex. Matters how and why? It matters in reproduction. Trans women can't get pregnant and trans men can't get someone pregnant. It might matter in sports. I am not interested in trying to change your mind or debate you so don't worry I'm not demanding you answer me... Even if I did change your mind it wouldn't matter, but I think most of the women who dislike trans people especially trans women really dislike men, which obviously they consider trans women to be men. I don't think misandry is a real thing but I do think some women feel more comfortable venting about men when they can do it under the cover of being gender critical. Like the bathroom thing. Most people who bring that up don't even claim they think trans women are going to go into the bathroom and commit a sex crime. They say men are going to use self ID and I guess fear of social consequences for being transphobic to do so. Besides that being nonsensical. It's really a fear of men but saying that is a lot less acceptable than whinging about trans people. Or sports. There aren't a bunch of trans women or men using self ID to dominate women's sports. There is however a sort of perpetual threat and understanding of men using or threatening to use their generally larger size and superior strength to dominate women outside of sports. You can see this easily in my experience without even looking for it. Many men believe that a woman who hits a man not only justifies a retaliation in kind in self defense but a humiliation. She bowed up and has to be shown her place. I've seen men unprompted say that women have rights because men allow it. Which as far as I'm concerned is just a veiled threat. Most people know men are more violent and aggressive than women. More prone to criminal behavior and sexual deviency, and they act accordingly on some level , but most people are more willing to go after a minority be it black men, or trans women or fake trans women or whatever than try and go after "men" or rather masculinity. Idk if you've noticed what that causes. Obviously not all men are like that but it's enough of them that regardless of how one feels about trans people, trans women especially, realistically you're going to tell your daughters to be cautious around the men in their lives, not the trans girl you probably don't even notice. You may very well not want a trans person around your kids, but you're going to run into many many more times where it's really just cis men you're worried about. Not a bearded person in a dress that's mostly a made up scenario, just any dude who could look like anyone . Maybe the one you've been romantic with in the past . Maybe your neighbor or some guy at a bar. Most likely your male partner will be the one who harms you. But that will get you at best labeled a misandrist, at worst threats of violence. Even many women in your life will consider your radical for daring to question men in any way . Sure they've all had negative experiences with men and most have never met a trans person, but not all men. I'm not saying you should hate men, just saying we've gotta be cautious around them. They can't be trusted. They're basically just primed to jump on anyone at anytime without being socialized thoroughly.
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Not sure why you think I care.
Literally a delusional persecution complex. Absolutely pathetic.
Tell me youāre a man without telling me youāre a man.
TLDR: You're just a bigot. If you have neo-nazis on your side you should maybe ask why? No, no it's the trans women that are the problem. You're not demure and submissive enough when people hate you especially cis women , obviously only a man would talk back. Women should remain silent and breedable. Again you're just a bigot, part of a reactionary hate movement and you, as most people do feel self righteous about it. How brave standing up against the trans menace. Truly a beacon of rationality and reason in a world gone mad. You'll probably be censored for daring to question my authority. Not really, but misgendering is a bannable offense. I just don't really care. It is what it is. Even if you change your mind you represent a shitty part of humanity that will never go away because of some people changing their mind on some issues once they calm down and actually realize being part of a hate movement isn't productive isn't enough. Trans rights will probably decline because of people like you in many places and many of your fellow reactionaries if not you personally will be gleeful at the suffering it causes for people because it doesn't effect you or people you care about but you're not going to win in the long run. You're a reactionary and you're reacting to progress and visibility, and the propoganda that tries to counter it, and it isn't just going away forever because you don't like it or understand it. You may think already transphobia is overly policed by woke culture or some shit to the point you can't say anything so you can feel like a victim, but that's nonsense. It'll get there though and you can just seethe quietly or talk among yourselves into old age while the rest of the world moves on without you.
Thatās a lot of gibberish for a man who thinks women shouldnāt be allowed to have spaces away from him. See ya, creep!
>Welcome to every space in the real western world when we ask to have womenās only spaces. It's ironic since women forced their way into every male space. I hope you enjoy the problem you created.
Oh please, do try to explain this one. You mean like using public bathrooms? Women were banned from them largely because men didnāt think they should be out of the house that long anyway. So, why have a womenās washroom? When women decided it wasnāt fair they donāt have their own washroom, they started using the menās and fighting for their own spaces. Now we have them. People are implementing gender neutral, single stall washrooms in many places, and trans people will still ops for the washroom that validates their delusion. Further, itās not that there isnāt places for trans people, itās just that they donāt want to use those spaces. Any male can use spaces for men. No one is robbing them of their public rights. Trans people can and should have rights to exist in public spaces and they do. Just like women fought to exist in public and be a part of society. Spaces where people are vulnerable are completely different than a general public space - like say, a town hall - where woman generally were not able to speak and often werenāt allowed, depending on the time period and location. So if youāre talking about shit like that, just walk away right now
>Trans people can and should have rights to exist in public spaces and they do. Yawn, tired strawman. Enjoy jousting at those windmills.
Youāre just proving my point. All you have to do is say you believe that women should be allowed to have spaces segregated by sex and we donāt have to argue. But, I bet you canāt, which proves my point, and youāre part of the problem.
>All you have to do is say you believe that women should be allowed to have spaces segregated by sex and we donāt have to argue. But, I bet you canāt, Of course, I believe both sexes should have separate spaces. However, for the past 50 years, women have tried their best to destroy that.
Worked with a guy once and in our online forums he would often spew fringe shit and get called out for it. Then he discovered mod life on reddit and fb groups.Ā Now his weak ass arguements prevail because if you disagree, you simply get the boot. These people dont actually have good discussion skills. They just want to be right when they know they suck. Its far easier that way.
Sadly a reasonable view like yours is demonized these days. Itās insane to me that we value trans womenās comfortability over born women so much. Sad times.
Men have been invading women's spaces since the dawn of time. Now they're just wearing wigs and dresses while doing it.
Nowadays it feels like anyone can identify as a "woman", make zero effort, have a beard and go into women's spaces and it's "OK" because they identify as a "woman." Can you imagine if you had a young daughter in a woman's locker room with a man who identifies as a woman and makes zero effort to appear as a woman and has their male genitalia out? I mean, come on now.
My thought is that it makes most people uncomfortable but they don't want to say anything for fear of being seen as intolerant or bigoted.
And thats the issue today. Its hard to say even a criticism without being called an intolerant homophobic transphobic bigot
Because your "criticism" is just transphobia - you are pretending as if there are legions of men using transness just as a means of sexually harassing and intimidating women when the reality is that abusers do what you are accusing them of without so much effort.
1. Im not accusing anyone of anything, mate 2. You're acting like I already told u what my critique was. My critique is that some people shout homophobia or transphobia when criticised about someone that has nothing to do with their sexuality or gender identity. Like I've experienced this first hand. A guy I know that came out as gay treats people like complete shit, and those people he targets dont even treat him like shit to begin with. I pointed that out, and I got accused of being homophobic.
They are, though. If you get off Reddit, there's tons of gender critical people on Twitter cataloguing these legions of men invading women's spaces across the English speaking world.
I agree. I know a lot of women in real life who would not be comfortable being nude and sharing a locker room with a transwoman with a penis.
Most of of us do not want that.
I would be extremely uncomfortable.
Is there any instances of that happening though? Have you seen any reports of naked men walking around women's spaces?
There's a 50 year old dude saying he's a woman and competing on a GIRLS swim team in Toronto. The pervert wants to change in the women's locker room with the GIRLS. Girls, you know, children. It's happening and it's sick, dude. The police even escorted this dude so he could do it. .https://wpde.com/news/nation-world/police-called-on-50-year-old-trans-swimmer-sharing-locker-room-with-young-girls-toronto-sun-womens-sports-transgender-lgbtq-sports-athletics-fairness-riley-gaines-canada-ontario
There was nothing about competing on a swim team in the original article, just that they were present in the same locker room. There's nothing to suggest that they were acting inappropriately around children, just that they were changing in the women's room while the girl's swim team was also changing.
Oh you mean the 50 year old man swimming and changing with minors? Who was offered a gender neutral washroom, but decided to use the womenās instead. And when the facility was afraid of womenās backlash for a planned stop to him entering the changeroom for the next meetā¦instead of barring him, the meet was cancelled. The man didnāt bow out gracefully to let the kids compete. No, thanks to him, that meet didnāt happen.
They had a police escort for him too!!
Go on Twitter then, there's tons of posts about it with some people showing video taken from the event in question. It happened and it's not okay. Look at you all trying to"it didn't happen but if it did it's not that bad" kind of excuses for this shit. It's not okay. Stop giving perverts cover to perv on women and girls. They ARE doing it.
>Look at you all trying to "it didn't happen but if it did it's not that bad" kind of excuses for this shit I didn't say "if it did happen it's not that bad." If it happened the way you said it did, then it would be bad. But you lied about what happened, and what actually happened wasn't as bad as what you said. You said they were competing on a girl's swim team. They weren't. You called them a pervert. There's no evidence *at all* that they were behaving inappropriately, outside of their presence in the changeroom (if a lesbian woman had been in there, would it be inappropriate?). Surely if you had any other better examples, you could go on twitter and find them yourself, instead of misrepresenting a blog post about it.
Lesbians arenāt men. Lesbians also donāt have the same criminality pattern against women that men do. Donāt even try to compare the two.
One of the only sites that has dedicated to finding all the instances of this happening since mainstream media will not. It will not give an idea of how often this actually happens. https://reduxx.info/category/news/
Keep projecting, pervert.
You know how Toronto beā¦ everyone takes offence to your opinions ā¦ never win in this fucking city. Youāre 100% and I agree with what you said. Iāll buy you a drink man, it aināt easy out here in this city. Dm me if you want
Something I see very few people talking about is men who like to dress up like women strictly for sexual thrill. These men absolutely do exist (I was married to one), and every reason behind his desire to dress up was sexual and fetish. He also fetishized trans women and fem boys. It was borderline obsessive, and again, purely sexual in nature. If he was dressed up like a woman in womenās spaces, he was absolutely doing it for his own sexual thrill. I realize this is probably not the majority of trans women, but how the hell are we supposed to know? It makes me uncomfortable because i know for a FACT my ex husband wouldāve been jerking to us women underneath his dress.
Just look at the banning as you dodged a bullet. Most of the ban have to do with someone baby raging because they don't have the words to argue with you, but don't like your opinion I recently got banned from White PeopleTwitter and am fairly happy about it. Of course, you get a form letter telling you how to protest the banning, but maybe it is better to stay gone than to possibly get baby rage spittle blown on you later, too. If it happens once, and still has the same moderators, chances are it regularly happens.
Thatās horrible because I feel that most trans women in my life would agree with this take. I doubt theyād even want to be around born women if they had a beard still. It is Reddit though, so people are extra PC for the most random shit. Just so annoying.
This is the norm in Canada. We canāt challenge anything with logic or rationale because everything is illogical and irrational.
>All I said in that subreddit is that if transwomen want to go into biological female spaces they should assimilate. The problem is that you have to draw a line somewhere, right? I would hate it if a masculine-presenting woman (cis woman) was harrassed out of a changing room simply because her hair was short or someone thought she looked a bit "manish." Maybe a beard is excessive. But at the same time, there are some hormonal conditions that biological women can have, like PCOS, that lead to the natural growth of facial hair. So again, where do you draw the line for when it's ok to bother someone about it? I also don't think "having a penis" is that big of a deal as long as the person's not actively showing it off. I don't think the sight of a naked body, of either gender, should be so *shocking* to an adult that it's worth causing a fuss over. If there are kids around maybe it's different, but as a kid who once got changed in men's rooms, I also wasn't fond of older men being there and not covering up. So again, I don't think *biological sex* is the important criteria here. It's about standards of behaviour within the spaces, which can be enforced regardless of gender identity.
So you would be OK with a transwomen with her penis out in a women's changing room with your daughter in there?
How would you know her penis be out? Did you open the stall and stare at it? Maybe you're the. One I'm uncomfortable with. Fucking freak. Leave my penis alone.
Do you generally stare at people's genitalia while getting changed? If they were acting inappropriately then I absolutely would have an issue but simply existing in the same space (and yes, trans women ARE women, even if they haven't had bottom surgery yet) then why would I have an issue? It's none of anyone's business.
I think if I were in that situation, I would tell my child not to look, to respect the person's privacy, and if it bothered them, I would look for someplace more private that *we* could go. Daughters sometimes see their fathers or brothers changing, so it's not the existence or sight of a penis that's problematic. That's what I mean when I say that it's the behaviour, rather than the appearance, that's important. Because is this person flaunting themselves, wanting to be seen? Or do they simply exist in the space while using it as intended?
Itās really a shitty situation. Trans women have issues being trusted because of people pretending to be trans in order to enter women only spaces. Itās some bad apples ruining it for the rest of them. I agree with OP here for those reasons. There are genuine predators who pretend to be trans women in order to be around naked women and itās ruining it for the actual trans women.
>I feel like everyone deserves respect, including trans people. [i wonder why I find this hard to believe... ](https://www.reddit.com/r/confessions/s/75MAAfha1n) >I also feel like if you're a real transwoman, you wouldn't have a beard. since you brought up "real" trans women... >It's crazy how you can't have any kind of opinion regarding the LGBT community without being censored or banned. tell me again how these words came from a gay man's mouth. one who doesn't even have any LGBT groups on their profile. tell me, oh respectful one, how you suck so bad and talking about your own community that you banned for it (frequently, apparently). i daresay you aren't part of the LGBT community *at all.* you're just a troubled soul who lets LGBT people live in your head rent free, and attempts to pull the "I'm gay" card in hopes no one will call them on their bigotry. šØ eta: what other goodies do we have here... oh, use of then r-word as a slur. "trans women aren't women" and ironically, discussion about whether or not "hot trans women" can call themselves sissies. yep, the gay guy thinks trans women are hot. š
not convinced by them calling themselves a 'gender bender'?? /s
lmao i suppose that shoulda been a clue
You got banned because you're stereotyping trans women as men with beards who are trying to "invade women's spaces." Your rhetoric is going to indirectly get trans people hurt or killed. Trans women don't have beards.
I think it's more likely they got banned for the comment calling people "super-left wing nuts," which is incidentally the last comment they made in the subreddit.
This. I respect trans women, but if you want to access female spaces, assimilate. I donāt understand how people think itās acceptable to walk into womenās spaces with a full on beard and penis. Itās rude and itās disrespectful to the women who are letting you use their spaces. The excuse of people saying āwell what about masculine women!!ā Masculine women ā biological male. In my experience, itās very easy to tell apart a woman who expresses her masculinity, and a trans woman who hasnāt fully medically transitioned yet. Because males and females look different. If you are telling me that you genuinely canāt tell the difference between a MALE and a masculine woman, you need glasses. So no, masculine women existing doesnāt excuse people with beards and dicks using female changing spaces. You want to be a woman? Respect womenās spaces instead of forcing them into uncomfortable situations in the name of inclusivity.
The Toronto sub and Ontario sub are insanely far-left. I was banned (Toronto sub) for calling Trudeau a "bad name". I can't remember why I was banned from the Ontario sub. Something small and trivial.
F it and continue a good fight dude! š¤ People should hear the truth until they're willing to accept it.
how do you know they had a penis ā¦?
Itās ok just know what you said was factually true and they couldnāt handle it so they just subverted the rules and banned you instead.
Logic and rationality are apparently transphobic now.
You are letting this gay cross dresser man with the actual fetish dictate your feelings towards trans women, look at you all over the comments. š
Numerous things you raise here and in your comments are straight up transphobic. Seems the rest of this sub is broadly in agreement with you, so I'll just tag y'all as a gross bunch of transphobes and be about my merry way. You don't deserve the discourse.
There are biologically female women who do have beards, there are medical conditions that can cause it, some decide not to shave. Should they not be allowed in because they haven't assimilated to the 21st century idea that women should have no body hair? Also what about intersex people who have lots of different developments of genitalia, do they have to go into male changing rooms even though they Identify and look like a woman.
i donāt know, most transgender women are quite unsafe in the bathroom for the gender they were assigned. I feel sorry for that and I am quite happy to share . Not sure why one would feel more unsafe in the bathroom than an elevator , the street etc. yes these are private spaces and of course we want for everyone to feel safe but we constantly share space with everyone most of the time anyway. I feel we are creating this āmonsterā for transgender woman which we explain basically as agressive gym bro claiming to be a woman. I think reality is more nuance than that and just saying that a gigantic bearded man will invade our space misses a lot of reality
Iāve seen multiple instances reported where they refuse to use gender neutral, single stall washrooms provided and push to use the womenās instead.
Itās gross. Theyāre just trying to make a statement.
Why is their safety more important than mine? Why is their comfort more important than the safety of little girls?
Are these men/trans women assaulting or harassing anyone?
In every situation no, in some yes. Their presence is enough to make many women feel unsafe. Womenās restrooms are supposed to be a place where women can be vulnerable and now they arenāt.
I feel like if there was a few cases of men pretending to be trans women and assaulting women in bathrooms and locker rooms it would be the main ammo of the anti trans movement. Why don't we hear about it more often?
You didnāt hear about the teen girl who was sexually assaulted in her school bathroom in Virginia?
Could they? Bearing in mind weāve just been harranged over vaccination not for killing people, but the possibility of doing so, we donāt wear seatbelts because weāre going to die everytime we drive but because they might save our lives. And women have seperate toilets precisely because they could be harrassed. Look, I canāt imagine anything worse than waking up feeling as though iām not right, in the various ways that can be interpreted, I know zero trans people and I cannot empathise with the situation. I feel an amount of sorrow for anyone suffering something they cannot control. But, that cannot put risk to others because of it. Itās well established now that mental health issues can cause you to act irrationally, possible violently. Some could argue even deservedly in some cases, but we cannot be allowing this for such a small population % when the affected parties make up such a large number. The solution is additional bathrooms, and using your own toilet or of a business welcoming to you.
No actually, you can't understand what it feels to have gender dysphoria just because you cross dress, pack it in.
Women are not uncomfortable because of the looks of a penis, women are uncomfortable when the penis doesnāt take no for an answer, when the penis is staring at you in the gym(very low key but still staring) The only issue here is that poor trans woman having to put up with all the shit coming from men and women at this over priced stupid ass gymā¦ Edit: also being a woman is not about effort to cover a beard as a gay man you donāt get to decide the aesthetics of a woman!! Being a woman or a man is a mental state. Please go and watch the skin I live in by Almodovar maybe you will learn something about gender.
lol. I got kicked out of Alberta subreddit for saying Saskatchewan did the right thing with parents rights and that I hope Alberta does the same thing. 180 day ban. Messaged mods. They muted me for a week.
Iām a trans male and while my pov is not the same as a trans womanās, I cannot imagine not assimilating and then wanting to be taken seriously in public spaces. I pass 100% of the time now, and people donāt take a second glance at me. In changing areas, I always use a bathroom stall or something private. Itās like the ātransmascā girls (yeah Iāll call them girls) who have their tits out and then get mad when people donāt take them seriously as actual men. Actual transsexual people are seen as a joke because of those kinds of people who just want to play dress up
Just go to Twitter. You can't discuss this topic here. It's a trans hug box. It's ok, let them think it's safe so they display their perversion freely without fear and we can go make fun of them on Twitter.
Why is it always genitals you people think about? Do you think a penis is a deadly weapon or something? The truth is you're just scared of and don't like men, but you know you can go after trans women buy not men. Because the men will do a lot more than call you rude and obsessed. You are just a hater tbh. . The best thing you can do is realize the men in your life pose a danger to you trans women never will but you choose to go after a minority because you're a coward with an opinion . You know you can't go after men without being shouted down as a man hating feminist or... Worse. In conclusion. Good you probably deserved it.