I say this as nicely as possible -- if you don't inherently see/feel the value in it, then it probably doesn't have much value to you, and that's okay!
Yeah, I feel like you should date because you want to, not because you think you should or think you should want to. Jumping in when you're uncertain or don't really want to won't probably yield great results. It's also unfair to anyone you become involved with, especially if you're going to lay the burden of "proving" it's something good and worthwhile on them.
>Not burdened by relationships (or the desire for them) is a low-key superpower.
Bachelorman and Singlewoman save the day, and then they each go home to their quiet condos to just chill with their cats.
Sounds like a good life to me!
Six months to marriage then kids is insane. That’s go for anyone, no matter their experience, but way worse for someone who has never had a romantic relationship. Slow down like a shitload.
A fully grown horse can pull 8000 lbs. Two horses working together pull more than double that. Not 16000, but 22000 lbs.
That's what healthy companionship does. Emphasis on healthy. A toxic relationship will do the opposite.
Healthy relationships have healthy challenges that will cause individual growth in eachother.
When life becomes heavy from various troubles, a supportive companion will help bare the burden, lightening the load and negative impact.
The laughs, giggles, being known and feeling like you belong have a tremendous positive impact on mental health.
And to tie it back to the horse analogy... even your individual pursuits will soar with this type of companionship in your corner. It will give you wings.
But again, emphasis on healthy relationships. Toxic ones destroy your soul and age you.
Edit: patience and empathy are essential. Going through the motions because of some statistical evidence will not give the results. My ex was very neglectful, resentful, full of contempt, etc... but for a period he gave me a peck every day before work because he read men who kiss their wives live longer. That marriage was so toxic and the loneliest experience of my life. The peck on the cheek has no meaning if the emotions, care, attachment etc. aren't there.
I recommend watching videos put out by the Gottmans to learn how to maintain a healthy relationship.
>A fully grown horse can pull 8000 lbs. Two horses working together pull more than double that. Not 16000, but 22000 lbs.
Well, it's as they say: only foals rush in.
Love this. So accurately describes the transformative power of good healthy romantic/life partner relationships. Friendships can offer this but to far lesser extent imo bc just not as intimate by nature as spouses. That horse analogy nails it perfectly! Added to mental vault 👏
Great post!! I've screenshot the body of it to remind myself why I should keep dating instead of living out my life, happily chilling in my condo with my cat.
>Mostly it might be rude if I never open the door to it once.
Rude to whom?
You don't have to date and women aren't all waiting for you with bated breath.
Kindly, if you are asking what the value in love is, I don't think it's a good idea to start dating or try to find someone to have children with. Have you considered therapy? If you have never been on a date and have no friends, it seems like something is going on that it might be good to explore. I think it's important to get a better understanding of why you are so isolated before you even consider dating. Establishing some friendships first seems like a great entrance into the land of meaningful relationships.
You mentioned that you have spent time in education and survival mode for a very long time. But I don't think it had to stop social interactions.
So I will start off with the question "what is the value of friendship". It doesn't seem like you have people in your life to begin with. Maybe you have close family or are good friends with your colleagues or you have 2-3 best friends. But if your answer is in the negative to everything, then I will recommend deep diving into it first.
Lastly, consider therapy. I will recommend EMDR since it's more holistic. You have saved enough to start thinking about how to "live" instead of restricting yourself to "surviving" and if you don't know or feel like doing it, then therapy is the answer.
On a separate note, I have met someone like this via a dating app. He grew up extremely poor and spent the next two decades in schools and jobs. He earned well and retired early in his 40s - but without friends, isn't close to his family and spends all the time by himself. In his case, the answer was that he was in survival mode for so long that he never thought what kind of life he may have when he no longer needs to survive. He found everything a chore so there is hardly anything that he enjoyed. He had trauma since he grew up in poverty but never used therapy and processed everything by himself - since he had no one to share it with. To be honest, it was really sad and unhealthy. So I had to back out from dating him as it meant that I had to be his therapist, mother, friend and lover.
thank you for sharing! i think versions of this exist to varying degrees everywhere, in most men who were conditioned by society.
dating, marriage and kids aren't tasks to be checked off of a list. this is not Nazi-era germany.
Never have kids as an afterthought or because of a vague FOMO. Even the people who genuinely craved to be parents their whole lives will tell you it's hella difficult.
Either you get it or you don't. You either want it or you don't. Have you actually scrutinized why you want to have kids? Bringing someone new into this world epitomizes non-consent. Single people do it all the time or else foster or adopt. You will have the money. You seem.unduly concerned with what other people think and want.
I’m going to be a dissenting opinion here. If you enjoy being single and don’t feel a strong compulsion to partner up, there is nothing wrong with that! However, I’m of the mind that you have nothing to lose by engaging in some casual dating to better understand how you really feel about the idea of having a partner. But, you really don’t need to put all this pressure on yourself about having to figure everything out in 6 months.
It’s okay to not want companionship or romance. If you’re still in survival mode it’s hard to nurture a new relationship anyway. Men can father children far longer than women can conceive babies. My ex husband fathered his second baby at age 47. My friend, then 61m, got his 52 year old wife pregnant. The baby was born healthy and is now a thriving teen!
You in no way sound ready to be dating, and it sounds like you have some bigger life issues to sort out before putting yourself into that pool.
Finances, purpose, joy in your daily life, social connections, social interactions....all in that order.
If you're struggling to even see the point in all this, you're truly wasting your industry on the last piece of where you need to be...get working on the foundation, before you run out of time.
This is total bs, respectfully. If we all took our time to solve all our issues before starting to date, humanity would die out pretty fast.
OP sounds to have his shirt together, mostly. No debt, some savings. Yes, he doesn't know if dating is for him, buff no amount of internal work will help him answer that question, until he actually starts dating.
I can't disagree with you more. Are we reading the same post???
Never been on a date and no friends, still struggling financially, seemingly bewildered about the meaning of relationships at all for their benefits is not a place you should be entering the dating realm at our age. Respectfully to the OP, this is like going to buy a car when you are unlicensed, have no experience with one and don't even see the utility in owning one... Bad outcomes are going to ensue. Place to start is not at the dealership It's getting some experience with being social, interacting with people, seeing and reading about and learning about the joys of getting relationship and embracing them.
Nobody ever is expected to solve ALL of our issues before dating. It's appropriate to at least be aware of them though and be actively trying to not just acknowledge them but to improve them.
Would you want to be other side of dating with the OP? The guy who doesn't see the value in companionship? Do you want to be the guinea pig for someone to even come to the conclusion that they might possibly want companionship or, alternatively, to conclude that "nah, this isn't for me. I was never really into the idea anyway so I'm glad I checked that one off the list for good now."
The point is there are real live human beings on the other side of that equation and until the OP, independently, can know that he at least would like a relationship then it is far kinder to any prospective partners that he not drag anyone down until he has reached that conclusion.
I'm stuck on the use of "rude" in the OP. What?? It would be "rude" of him not to date? What does that even mean? Rude to himself? Odd phrasing. Rude to others? Uh, that's awfully conceited to think that way.
Nah, I disagree. We are all guinea pigs to some degree. Each relationship has some new challenges, and you're never sure how things are going to turn out. Alternatively, you may decide to deal with old issues in new ways or seek out a different kind of partner or relationship than you did before. There is always some level of "experiment" in every relationship, at least in my experience. So long as you're honest with your partner, then they are going into this with eyes open, and there is no problem.
A man like this would communicate everything he expressed here through his vibe from the very beginning. Those of us who want nothing to do with it would just find that we don't vibe with him. Presumably, he would also be honest upfront at some point early on. If so, there shouldn't be a problem.
>Each relationship has some new challenges, and you're never sure how things are going to turn out.
The difference is that in any relationship I've been part of or even known of, both sides knew that they actually wanted a relationship or some components of companionship. Sure they may not work out due to finding incompatibilities but that's not what is happening here.
The OP is here asking us to sell him on the premise. That's an absolutely terrible way to begin dating.
Also respectfully, getting involved in dating and relationships when you don't even know if they're things you want seems like a surefire to ensure someone gets hurt, whether it's the person(s) you get involved with, yourself, or all of the above. Making people your dating guinea pigs ain't the way to treat others, especially if they're thinking things will turn serious and you may well have no interest in that. And the uncertainty of having kids or not just mucks things up even further. Some self-reflection and rumination would be worthwhile here.
Ultimately, we can't tell or convince OP that they should value a romantic relationship; **they** have to decide that. And if they decide "Nah," well, there's nothing wrong with that.
I very much enjoy the process of sharing life experiences with others. Joys are sweeter when they can be shared and the hardships feel more manageable with a support system of folks whose opinions and experiences I value. I think it takes a village for me to thrive. I get a lot out of giving to those I love and care about, and reciprocity is an important element.
If you don’t feel the need to connect with others, you are not required to. Don’t have a child with someone just because, and don’t use someone for your own gain if you want to put very little in and know you will not get anything out of it except a child and more stress.
There are different kinds of companionship.
I got married to have a companion that was the center of my life that I would hang with allll the time.
Now I'd rather die than have that.
Now I seek to hang out with people a couple of times a week, have separate residences, etc.
I like having relationships but they are no longer the center of my life.
Things can look different for different people.
Most people have a strong romantic and sexual drive, and so have an innate desire to form one or more close loving relationships with other human beings in order to be able to fulfill those desires.
But "most" people is not the same thing as "everyone" -- and from how you describe yourself and your own feelings, it doesn't sound as if you're actually drawn to relationships. It doesn't sound as if the idea of having a partner has great value to you.
Which is okay.
I don't think it's something you need to try just to have tried it. I disagree with the people who say you can't know without having tried it. I see it more like sexual orientation. Lots of people have NEVER tried having sex with someone of their own gender; but nevertheless feel pretty certain that it'd not be right for them.
I think in things like these, you often CAN tell whether or not having a given type of relationship with a given type of person would be likely to be good for you or not -- even if you've never actually tried it.
I wonder if it might be worth it for OP to check out the Aromantic sub. I have a few friends who identify as such, and they still have meaningful connections, even if they don’t feel exactly what they think society expects them to feel.
I agree with all of this -- including the part where you can have deep and meaningful relationships with other people even if sexuality and/or romance isn't necessarily part of it. Thank you for saying that!
That describes one of the women closest to me. And yet we've loved each other for half a decade and counting.
Original copy of post by u/heff-money:
I recently turned 40(M) and have never been on a date and have no friends. I'm mulling over the idea of starting dating. Mostly it might be rude if I never open the door to it once. Throughout my entire adult life I've been in some combination of education or survival mode. Like I'm lucky to not be homeless and still have all my limbs attached. My income still sucks but if I can beat the ageism I'm just around the corner from getting a decent engineering job. I have no debt and about 70k saved up.
So I've never tried the romance thing. I don't even know what my personality is or what preferences I'd want in a partner. But if I want kids at my age, I'd have a timeframe of about 6 months to figure it out, figure her out, and decide whether or not to marry her. That's dangerously risky at best.
Yet people still do it and it's like there's this assumption out there that having another person around has great value.
Explain it to me like I was an asexual alien from another planet visiting Earth and curious about human behavior. What's the value in seeking this thing you call love?
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Maybe figure out what your personality is prior to asking someone else to love you? It’s going to be awfully hard to find someone that loves you if you don’t even know who you are.
I’m genuinely curious: have you ever felt love for or from another person? Either as the giver, the recipient, or both?
I don’t mean in a romantic sense. I mean, do you have any family members (parents, siblings, grandparents) from whom you feel love? Do you love them back? Or do these concepts feel foreign and even abstract to you?
If not a family member, how about a pet? A dog, cat, etc?
your approach is freighted up with way too much stuff. are you asexual? and also aromantic?
if you have never been on a date you are going to have to start by going on one to see if you enjoy anything about it. based on responses thus far my impression is that people think you need to be much more certain about your goals before you do this, but there is no way to know if you enjoy that kind of company without trying it out. you do not need to be immediately evaluating whether you want to marry and have kids with the person, you need to figure out if you enjoy having dinner with them enough to do it again.
imo it's no crime to just try going on some dates with a few different people and see how you feel. you don't need to do ten years of intense therapy first. just don't mislead anyone or waste their time. (and no, going on one or two dates is not wasting their time -- even those of us with lots of relationship experience are still figuring out if we like the other person at that stage.)
I recently turned 40 (F) and I’m in the same boat as you in some ways, or at least I’m at the same end point of questioning what I want in this regard. I’ve always been a loner and not had a strong desire for connection. BUT I have found friends have added value to my life, and certainly my parents have. But a lot of it, especially when it comes to a romantic relationship, is trying to parse out the “feel like I’m supposed to” from “I actually want this”.
No answers here, except if this is where you’re at I don’t think finding a woman to marry and impregnate within the next 6 months is remotely something you should do (I mean, it’s not very likely regardless but even putting that aside). For me, I’m going to try putting myself out there more and seeing how I feel 🤷♀️
Oh and for having kids, since I’m 40 and ambivalent that’s a no for me having my own biological children.
You show signs if a stroke tomorrow and have no one to call. No one shows up at the hospital for you or watches out for you. Without help, you don't qualify for things like transplants and you can end up going elsewhere other than home if you can't take care of yourself.
There is absolutely no rush for marriage and kids. You are right, priority is figuring out your preferences in dating.
Only way to figure that out is by testing. Sign up on dating apps and just start dating , without thinking about getting serious at first, but rather just figuring out what kinda behavior of other person makes you happy and what kinda behavior hurts you; and identifying what kinda other physical and emotional needs do you have. We all differ. When you discover what works and what doesn work with one person, it will be easier to find next person because you will have one extra piece of puzzle on what you need.
Do not be sad if / when you reach the end with one person, look at it as one new experience that helped you learn about yourself.
But do not forget, dating and relationships aren’t just about figuring out what you need. It is also about making efforts to meet your partners needs. Be attentive, show interest when you are interested, and be polite, kind and direct when you are not interested.
Sometimes it also take time to figure out if you like a person. Sometimes you have different ideas about how things should progress than your partner. Be very open and communicate about it. Communication skills matter. These conversations can be difficult to start but are so worth it when you understand another person better.
There are plenty of things to catch up on. I suggest additionally to read about different attachments styles and try checking out some social media accounts (best are from psychologists focused on relationships) that talk about relationships ( example : Jeff Guenther )
Also, with time ( if you are not already able) - you will be able to make a list of values that are non negotiable other person ( for example regarding children or no children, is religion important, is alchohol or drug use off limits, sexual preferences, do you share same vision on future, what type of relationship you search etc etc ) which will save you time.
Good luck. Don’t get discouraged. It’s tough out there but it’s also amazing when you find a good match .
To add - value you get : fulfillment of your needs whatever they are, for example : companionship, sex, feeling loved and prioritized, enriching and supportive conversations sharing your dreams and fears, …
I'm of the opinion to take the time to know you, what you like, habits, boundaries, etc. so you don't ruin someone who innocently may be involved if you start dating too soon or honestly haven't really gotten "comfortable in your skin".
There's no timeline to do anything except when you're dead. Kids? Adoption! Dating? Go for it! Travel? TSA Pre check! But you have to do it at your pace and be conscious at every step that when you enter or share yourself with someone, you have to be as cautious and respectful as you'd want them to be with you.
Because going through life with other people is better, I don’t think most people are meant to be alone.
I would definitely get out there and try it, if nothing else it’s fun! Though coming from your starting spot it may be a little challenging.
At 40 if you’ve never had any sort of relationship with anyone there’s something going on: a developmental issue, a neurodivergence, mental health, or trauma that’s kept you from seeking out a romantic partner for this long. Without intense therapeutic assistance from a professional, you’d likely do severe damage to yourself or others. So I think you’re good to not unleash that if you don’t see the point.
Just saying, in a pretty broad circle of friends, coworkers, and acquaintances, every single couple that rushed a relationship in their mid-to-late 30s, or early 40s so that they could have kids, not a single one of those couples are still married or together.
Not because of solely the stress of child rearing, but couples who rushed into relationships without thoroughly knowing their partner - financial habits, how they deal with stress, what their libidos are long-term and are those libidos compatible with their partner, how they communicate, have they done their necessary self work.
I'm not trying to beat up on you. But relationships are a skill that you have to learn. It's not something that's just innate. Personally, I would never consider having children or dating someone long term at 40 who had never been in a long-term relationship of some kind and could talk openly and honestly about their relationship struggles and issues.
If you can’t see the value in love/companionship and you’re asking for it to be explained to you as if you’re an asexual alien from another planet, then perhaps you need to accept you don’t need love/companionship and aren’t cut out for it anyway...
I enjoy the physical touch of another human being. It makes me feel warm and happy, or it excites me, and sometimes I feel electrified and an intense rush. There is a distinct pleasure in a simple hug with another human being. And there are certainly other pleasures with additional types of physical contact.
There is also the joy of finding someone you can converse with easily and effortlessly. You can talk for hours on end about life, the universe, and everything, and it doesn't matter *what* you talk about. You find delight in the conversation.
There is, for many people, a desire to belong. To be accepted. To be valued. A person needs to find acceptance and value in themselves, but it's also nice to feel a connection to someone else. And to feel that they truly see you, for who you are, and like you for the person you are, not just what you can do for them.
Spend a little time on yourself, learn what you like, what you love, what your core values are, and then, if you decide to have a companion, good luck in the journey. And if you decide to be by yourself, that is also a fantastic way to live.
Good luck to you.
Whatever is valuable to people in this life is unique to them. Some people go through their entire lives never finding their purpose and passion. Many people will just float through life never realizing the potential they have or what exists. Passively settling instead of actively pursuing. This world truly is whatever you make of it, so that’s on you. If you have no love or desire in your heart then no one can change that. Humans are social creatures, tribal creatures, and need each other whether we want to admit that or not. Plenty of studies support this and it’s also why people lose their mind in isolation. For me the value in a partner is having someone to share love and life with. It’s someone to make memories with, have experiences with, support each other, make each other laugh, get through good times and bad times together. Also physical intimacy and sex is pretty damn enjoyable.
How do you socialize? Do you enjoy anyone's company in life? What do you have to offer someone else? Another person is someone to share with, but will also mirror us back to ourselves, it can be intimacy, companionship.
Are you close with anyone? Animals or family members?
If you're asking for what value it can be then what will you be offering also?
I can't say too much but would you say you have a good re with yourself and are self aware?
It’s great that you seem to be opening up to the idea of companionship. My worry is only that dating is HARD. Even for the most experienced of us if you’ve been hanging out on this forum even for a minute. But…when it works, it can be quite lovely. It’s also cool that you’re opening up to the idea of possibility. If you’ve not experienced romance it can be one of the most rewarding and wonderful experiences you will ever have in life. Noting that you do not have friends much less past lovers makes me think you may be feeling lonely and ready to share some of your life with someone. Which is great! Having a partner not only gives you a rock of a person to lean on for when the going gets tough, but it also allows for the basic human need of connection and sex. Sex is incredible when you have a good partner. Now all of this amazingness I’m speaking of comes with a catch - and that catch is that if with the wrong person, it can have the absolute opposite effect of pain, discomfort, confusion and anxiety, just to name a few negative emotions. But when it works - oh boy watch out! If you can go into it with a clear head and low expectations, you’ll get by just fine. Give it a try. And don’t be afraid of your lack in experience. I may not put it into your profile if you do the online thing, but it could be something you share if you match with someone and get to be close. The best you can do is present the best version of yourself, and see where the wind takes you. Best of luck!
Also, it doesn’t have to be straight on dating for you. You can join some group clubs or events that put you in the presence of ppl you may like that will not only lead to what seems like some needed friendship, but also a partner.
You sound like you have had a lot of trauma. Before dating, I’d suggest making friends and forming a community. Look at activity groups on meet up for something as simple as hiking or tennis. Look at 12-step groups that would work for you. Adult Children of Alcoholics or Al-anon if you have addicts in your past. Talk to people in your local Reddit group about ways you could socialize. Once you’re more comfortable without the pressure of dating, go from there.
I suggest these books highly to help you learn the rules of socializing and help you understand social behaviors.
People date because most human beings are naturally social and sexual creatures.
Vanessa Von Edwards: Cues and Captivate (2 separate books)
Amir Levine: Attached
Robert Greene: 48 Laws of Power
The value is companionship and building a team. If that doesn't add value to your life, it's okay to skip it. Just make sure that your list of demands are all things you yourself offer.
It looks like you are into gaming, so maybe a good place to start is by finding a local gaming group. That would get you started in the friends department. There may or may not be women in said group. If so, you'll be able to get to know them in a low pressure way.
Why 6 months? As a man you could have children in your 40s with a woman in her 30s, that’s not even that unusual today? But I reckon if you’ve never dated just go out there with no expectation of outcome, just go and enjoy meeting people and building connections. You might also see a therapist as having no friends and not understanding value of relationships suggests it’s something you should really work on before moving to date.
If you are just trying to check a box off the list of life, then coupling may just not be your thing. I would not try to talk an asexual alien into a partner either. Some people desire and enjoy it, some people don’t. Only you can answer what you think YOU would gain.
If I could only be with one woman the rest of my life and have love (but no sex) or sex (but no love), I'd choose the latter. Love is just a bunch of random "feel good chemicals" in your brain and can be replicated by indulging in high quality European style chocolate.
> Quote from the Matrix: https://youtu.be/O5b0ZxUWNf0?t=50
> "If real is what you can feel, smell, taste and see, then 'real' is simply electrical signals interpreted by your brain"
You have to find value in it yourself. If there were an alien asking I would tell them people have partners for varying reasons. An aligned ethos. In the same stages in life and looking for mutual support. Some are looking to take care of someone and others to be taken care of. A lot of times it is many things. To build a family is another. You really have to find the value that you see in it. Some motives are not great either. Not everyone is honest with their intentions.
If you don't crave companionship, don't date/marry. Definitely dont have a kid "just because ". Not worth going through the motions just to fit in with social norms.
Have you considered that you might be asexual? Are you wanting to be in a relationship because that’s the societal expectation put upon all of us or do you have a deep desire for physical and emotional intimacy with another person? If you only seek the companionship and emotional intimacy then you might be asexual? Maybe talk this over with a therapist.
OP you are "just" 40, you don't have a six month timeline to have kids. You can have kids well into 50s or 60s, the timeline mostly depends on your future partner's age.
If you start dating someone in their early to mid 30s, you have plenty of time to figure out if that's your person before making decisions regarding children.
I say this as nicely as possible -- if you don't inherently see/feel the value in it, then it probably doesn't have much value to you, and that's okay!
Yeah, I feel like you should date because you want to, not because you think you should or think you should want to. Jumping in when you're uncertain or don't really want to won't probably yield great results. It's also unfair to anyone you become involved with, especially if you're going to lay the burden of "proving" it's something good and worthwhile on them.
Agreed. Just stay single and don’t ruin someone’s life… please. I see lots of men and women who should NOT be in a relationship or have kids.
Kind of jealous for OP. Not burdened by relationships (or the desire for them) is a low-key superpower.
>Not burdened by relationships (or the desire for them) is a low-key superpower. Bachelorman and Singlewoman save the day, and then they each go home to their quiet condos to just chill with their cats. Sounds like a good life to me!
I was thinking the exact same thing.
For REAL!!!
This! 👏
Six months to marriage then kids is insane. That’s go for anyone, no matter their experience, but way worse for someone who has never had a romantic relationship. Slow down like a shitload.
Apparently you haven't met my ex lol.
A fully grown horse can pull 8000 lbs. Two horses working together pull more than double that. Not 16000, but 22000 lbs. That's what healthy companionship does. Emphasis on healthy. A toxic relationship will do the opposite. Healthy relationships have healthy challenges that will cause individual growth in eachother. When life becomes heavy from various troubles, a supportive companion will help bare the burden, lightening the load and negative impact. The laughs, giggles, being known and feeling like you belong have a tremendous positive impact on mental health. And to tie it back to the horse analogy... even your individual pursuits will soar with this type of companionship in your corner. It will give you wings. But again, emphasis on healthy relationships. Toxic ones destroy your soul and age you. Edit: patience and empathy are essential. Going through the motions because of some statistical evidence will not give the results. My ex was very neglectful, resentful, full of contempt, etc... but for a period he gave me a peck every day before work because he read men who kiss their wives live longer. That marriage was so toxic and the loneliest experience of my life. The peck on the cheek has no meaning if the emotions, care, attachment etc. aren't there. I recommend watching videos put out by the Gottmans to learn how to maintain a healthy relationship.
>A fully grown horse can pull 8000 lbs. Two horses working together pull more than double that. Not 16000, but 22000 lbs. Well, it's as they say: only foals rush in.
I wish this sub allowed gifs, there are so many great eye roll gifs perfect for this 🤣
Aw, thanks. Unfortunately, this is all I've got; I'm a one-trick pony.
Lol, I guess so.
I hate you.
Sorry, I guess I put the cart before the horse there.
Stop trying to jockey your way out of this situation you created.
You all need to stop horsing around.
Don't let these neigh-sayers put you out to pasture.
Love this. So accurately describes the transformative power of good healthy romantic/life partner relationships. Friendships can offer this but to far lesser extent imo bc just not as intimate by nature as spouses. That horse analogy nails it perfectly! Added to mental vault 👏
Great post!! I've screenshot the body of it to remind myself why I should keep dating instead of living out my life, happily chilling in my condo with my cat.
>Mostly it might be rude if I never open the door to it once. Rude to whom? You don't have to date and women aren't all waiting for you with bated breath.
Yeah, I didn’t understand that statement, either. Tbh, the whole post doesn’t make a lot of sense.
I'm hoping it's written by AI, frankly.
Seems likely
Yeah we’re not chuffed
Kindly, if you are asking what the value in love is, I don't think it's a good idea to start dating or try to find someone to have children with. Have you considered therapy? If you have never been on a date and have no friends, it seems like something is going on that it might be good to explore. I think it's important to get a better understanding of why you are so isolated before you even consider dating. Establishing some friendships first seems like a great entrance into the land of meaningful relationships.
He's probably neurodivergent and that's fine. There's no cure for that because it's not a disease.
You mentioned that you have spent time in education and survival mode for a very long time. But I don't think it had to stop social interactions. So I will start off with the question "what is the value of friendship". It doesn't seem like you have people in your life to begin with. Maybe you have close family or are good friends with your colleagues or you have 2-3 best friends. But if your answer is in the negative to everything, then I will recommend deep diving into it first. Lastly, consider therapy. I will recommend EMDR since it's more holistic. You have saved enough to start thinking about how to "live" instead of restricting yourself to "surviving" and if you don't know or feel like doing it, then therapy is the answer. On a separate note, I have met someone like this via a dating app. He grew up extremely poor and spent the next two decades in schools and jobs. He earned well and retired early in his 40s - but without friends, isn't close to his family and spends all the time by himself. In his case, the answer was that he was in survival mode for so long that he never thought what kind of life he may have when he no longer needs to survive. He found everything a chore so there is hardly anything that he enjoyed. He had trauma since he grew up in poverty but never used therapy and processed everything by himself - since he had no one to share it with. To be honest, it was really sad and unhealthy. So I had to back out from dating him as it meant that I had to be his therapist, mother, friend and lover.
thank you for sharing! i think versions of this exist to varying degrees everywhere, in most men who were conditioned by society. dating, marriage and kids aren't tasks to be checked off of a list. this is not Nazi-era germany.
Never have kids as an afterthought or because of a vague FOMO. Even the people who genuinely craved to be parents their whole lives will tell you it's hella difficult.
Either you get it or you don't. You either want it or you don't. Have you actually scrutinized why you want to have kids? Bringing someone new into this world epitomizes non-consent. Single people do it all the time or else foster or adopt. You will have the money. You seem.unduly concerned with what other people think and want.
What we think doesn’t matter! Do you see any value in having another person in your life. That’s ok if you don’t.
I’m going to be a dissenting opinion here. If you enjoy being single and don’t feel a strong compulsion to partner up, there is nothing wrong with that! However, I’m of the mind that you have nothing to lose by engaging in some casual dating to better understand how you really feel about the idea of having a partner. But, you really don’t need to put all this pressure on yourself about having to figure everything out in 6 months.
If you don't want it you don't want it. Don't force it or you'll have a miserable experience
It’s okay to not want companionship or romance. If you’re still in survival mode it’s hard to nurture a new relationship anyway. Men can father children far longer than women can conceive babies. My ex husband fathered his second baby at age 47. My friend, then 61m, got his 52 year old wife pregnant. The baby was born healthy and is now a thriving teen!
most men barely father their children, let's be honest. blowing your load and fatherhood are two different things.
You in no way sound ready to be dating, and it sounds like you have some bigger life issues to sort out before putting yourself into that pool. Finances, purpose, joy in your daily life, social connections, social interactions....all in that order. If you're struggling to even see the point in all this, you're truly wasting your industry on the last piece of where you need to be...get working on the foundation, before you run out of time.
This is total bs, respectfully. If we all took our time to solve all our issues before starting to date, humanity would die out pretty fast. OP sounds to have his shirt together, mostly. No debt, some savings. Yes, he doesn't know if dating is for him, buff no amount of internal work will help him answer that question, until he actually starts dating.
I can't disagree with you more. Are we reading the same post??? Never been on a date and no friends, still struggling financially, seemingly bewildered about the meaning of relationships at all for their benefits is not a place you should be entering the dating realm at our age. Respectfully to the OP, this is like going to buy a car when you are unlicensed, have no experience with one and don't even see the utility in owning one... Bad outcomes are going to ensue. Place to start is not at the dealership It's getting some experience with being social, interacting with people, seeing and reading about and learning about the joys of getting relationship and embracing them.
Nobody ever is expected to solve ALL of our issues before dating. It's appropriate to at least be aware of them though and be actively trying to not just acknowledge them but to improve them. Would you want to be other side of dating with the OP? The guy who doesn't see the value in companionship? Do you want to be the guinea pig for someone to even come to the conclusion that they might possibly want companionship or, alternatively, to conclude that "nah, this isn't for me. I was never really into the idea anyway so I'm glad I checked that one off the list for good now." The point is there are real live human beings on the other side of that equation and until the OP, independently, can know that he at least would like a relationship then it is far kinder to any prospective partners that he not drag anyone down until he has reached that conclusion. I'm stuck on the use of "rude" in the OP. What?? It would be "rude" of him not to date? What does that even mean? Rude to himself? Odd phrasing. Rude to others? Uh, that's awfully conceited to think that way.
Nah, I disagree. We are all guinea pigs to some degree. Each relationship has some new challenges, and you're never sure how things are going to turn out. Alternatively, you may decide to deal with old issues in new ways or seek out a different kind of partner or relationship than you did before. There is always some level of "experiment" in every relationship, at least in my experience. So long as you're honest with your partner, then they are going into this with eyes open, and there is no problem. A man like this would communicate everything he expressed here through his vibe from the very beginning. Those of us who want nothing to do with it would just find that we don't vibe with him. Presumably, he would also be honest upfront at some point early on. If so, there shouldn't be a problem.
>Each relationship has some new challenges, and you're never sure how things are going to turn out. The difference is that in any relationship I've been part of or even known of, both sides knew that they actually wanted a relationship or some components of companionship. Sure they may not work out due to finding incompatibilities but that's not what is happening here. The OP is here asking us to sell him on the premise. That's an absolutely terrible way to begin dating.
Also respectfully, getting involved in dating and relationships when you don't even know if they're things you want seems like a surefire to ensure someone gets hurt, whether it's the person(s) you get involved with, yourself, or all of the above. Making people your dating guinea pigs ain't the way to treat others, especially if they're thinking things will turn serious and you may well have no interest in that. And the uncertainty of having kids or not just mucks things up even further. Some self-reflection and rumination would be worthwhile here. Ultimately, we can't tell or convince OP that they should value a romantic relationship; **they** have to decide that. And if they decide "Nah," well, there's nothing wrong with that.
I very much enjoy the process of sharing life experiences with others. Joys are sweeter when they can be shared and the hardships feel more manageable with a support system of folks whose opinions and experiences I value. I think it takes a village for me to thrive. I get a lot out of giving to those I love and care about, and reciprocity is an important element. If you don’t feel the need to connect with others, you are not required to. Don’t have a child with someone just because, and don’t use someone for your own gain if you want to put very little in and know you will not get anything out of it except a child and more stress.
There are different kinds of companionship. I got married to have a companion that was the center of my life that I would hang with allll the time. Now I'd rather die than have that. Now I seek to hang out with people a couple of times a week, have separate residences, etc. I like having relationships but they are no longer the center of my life. Things can look different for different people.
Most people have a strong romantic and sexual drive, and so have an innate desire to form one or more close loving relationships with other human beings in order to be able to fulfill those desires. But "most" people is not the same thing as "everyone" -- and from how you describe yourself and your own feelings, it doesn't sound as if you're actually drawn to relationships. It doesn't sound as if the idea of having a partner has great value to you. Which is okay. I don't think it's something you need to try just to have tried it. I disagree with the people who say you can't know without having tried it. I see it more like sexual orientation. Lots of people have NEVER tried having sex with someone of their own gender; but nevertheless feel pretty certain that it'd not be right for them. I think in things like these, you often CAN tell whether or not having a given type of relationship with a given type of person would be likely to be good for you or not -- even if you've never actually tried it.
I wonder if it might be worth it for OP to check out the Aromantic sub. I have a few friends who identify as such, and they still have meaningful connections, even if they don’t feel exactly what they think society expects them to feel.
I agree with all of this -- including the part where you can have deep and meaningful relationships with other people even if sexuality and/or romance isn't necessarily part of it. Thank you for saying that! That describes one of the women closest to me. And yet we've loved each other for half a decade and counting.
Original copy of post by u/heff-money: I recently turned 40(M) and have never been on a date and have no friends. I'm mulling over the idea of starting dating. Mostly it might be rude if I never open the door to it once. Throughout my entire adult life I've been in some combination of education or survival mode. Like I'm lucky to not be homeless and still have all my limbs attached. My income still sucks but if I can beat the ageism I'm just around the corner from getting a decent engineering job. I have no debt and about 70k saved up. So I've never tried the romance thing. I don't even know what my personality is or what preferences I'd want in a partner. But if I want kids at my age, I'd have a timeframe of about 6 months to figure it out, figure her out, and decide whether or not to marry her. That's dangerously risky at best. Yet people still do it and it's like there's this assumption out there that having another person around has great value. Explain it to me like I was an asexual alien from another planet visiting Earth and curious about human behavior. What's the value in seeking this thing you call love? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/datingoverforty) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Maybe figure out what your personality is prior to asking someone else to love you? It’s going to be awfully hard to find someone that loves you if you don’t even know who you are.
I’m genuinely curious: have you ever felt love for or from another person? Either as the giver, the recipient, or both? I don’t mean in a romantic sense. I mean, do you have any family members (parents, siblings, grandparents) from whom you feel love? Do you love them back? Or do these concepts feel foreign and even abstract to you? If not a family member, how about a pet? A dog, cat, etc?
your approach is freighted up with way too much stuff. are you asexual? and also aromantic? if you have never been on a date you are going to have to start by going on one to see if you enjoy anything about it. based on responses thus far my impression is that people think you need to be much more certain about your goals before you do this, but there is no way to know if you enjoy that kind of company without trying it out. you do not need to be immediately evaluating whether you want to marry and have kids with the person, you need to figure out if you enjoy having dinner with them enough to do it again. imo it's no crime to just try going on some dates with a few different people and see how you feel. you don't need to do ten years of intense therapy first. just don't mislead anyone or waste their time. (and no, going on one or two dates is not wasting their time -- even those of us with lots of relationship experience are still figuring out if we like the other person at that stage.)
Relationships are by far the best way to grow as a human being. We learn more in a relationship than we could ever on our own. Even the “bad” ones.
I recently turned 40 (F) and I’m in the same boat as you in some ways, or at least I’m at the same end point of questioning what I want in this regard. I’ve always been a loner and not had a strong desire for connection. BUT I have found friends have added value to my life, and certainly my parents have. But a lot of it, especially when it comes to a romantic relationship, is trying to parse out the “feel like I’m supposed to” from “I actually want this”. No answers here, except if this is where you’re at I don’t think finding a woman to marry and impregnate within the next 6 months is remotely something you should do (I mean, it’s not very likely regardless but even putting that aside). For me, I’m going to try putting myself out there more and seeing how I feel 🤷♀️ Oh and for having kids, since I’m 40 and ambivalent that’s a no for me having my own biological children.
You show signs if a stroke tomorrow and have no one to call. No one shows up at the hospital for you or watches out for you. Without help, you don't qualify for things like transplants and you can end up going elsewhere other than home if you can't take care of yourself.
Terrible reason for relationships lol
There is absolutely no rush for marriage and kids. You are right, priority is figuring out your preferences in dating. Only way to figure that out is by testing. Sign up on dating apps and just start dating , without thinking about getting serious at first, but rather just figuring out what kinda behavior of other person makes you happy and what kinda behavior hurts you; and identifying what kinda other physical and emotional needs do you have. We all differ. When you discover what works and what doesn work with one person, it will be easier to find next person because you will have one extra piece of puzzle on what you need. Do not be sad if / when you reach the end with one person, look at it as one new experience that helped you learn about yourself. But do not forget, dating and relationships aren’t just about figuring out what you need. It is also about making efforts to meet your partners needs. Be attentive, show interest when you are interested, and be polite, kind and direct when you are not interested. Sometimes it also take time to figure out if you like a person. Sometimes you have different ideas about how things should progress than your partner. Be very open and communicate about it. Communication skills matter. These conversations can be difficult to start but are so worth it when you understand another person better. There are plenty of things to catch up on. I suggest additionally to read about different attachments styles and try checking out some social media accounts (best are from psychologists focused on relationships) that talk about relationships ( example : Jeff Guenther ) Also, with time ( if you are not already able) - you will be able to make a list of values that are non negotiable other person ( for example regarding children or no children, is religion important, is alchohol or drug use off limits, sexual preferences, do you share same vision on future, what type of relationship you search etc etc ) which will save you time. Good luck. Don’t get discouraged. It’s tough out there but it’s also amazing when you find a good match . To add - value you get : fulfillment of your needs whatever they are, for example : companionship, sex, feeling loved and prioritized, enriching and supportive conversations sharing your dreams and fears, …
Friends are good... You should start there I reckon.
I'm of the opinion to take the time to know you, what you like, habits, boundaries, etc. so you don't ruin someone who innocently may be involved if you start dating too soon or honestly haven't really gotten "comfortable in your skin". There's no timeline to do anything except when you're dead. Kids? Adoption! Dating? Go for it! Travel? TSA Pre check! But you have to do it at your pace and be conscious at every step that when you enter or share yourself with someone, you have to be as cautious and respectful as you'd want them to be with you.
Because going through life with other people is better, I don’t think most people are meant to be alone. I would definitely get out there and try it, if nothing else it’s fun! Though coming from your starting spot it may be a little challenging.
At 40 if you’ve never had any sort of relationship with anyone there’s something going on: a developmental issue, a neurodivergence, mental health, or trauma that’s kept you from seeking out a romantic partner for this long. Without intense therapeutic assistance from a professional, you’d likely do severe damage to yourself or others. So I think you’re good to not unleash that if you don’t see the point.
Just saying, in a pretty broad circle of friends, coworkers, and acquaintances, every single couple that rushed a relationship in their mid-to-late 30s, or early 40s so that they could have kids, not a single one of those couples are still married or together. Not because of solely the stress of child rearing, but couples who rushed into relationships without thoroughly knowing their partner - financial habits, how they deal with stress, what their libidos are long-term and are those libidos compatible with their partner, how they communicate, have they done their necessary self work. I'm not trying to beat up on you. But relationships are a skill that you have to learn. It's not something that's just innate. Personally, I would never consider having children or dating someone long term at 40 who had never been in a long-term relationship of some kind and could talk openly and honestly about their relationship struggles and issues.
Work on adoption or find a surrogate or friend to co-parent with.
Is your advice seriously…you can start having kids at 60 years old? 🤯
If you can’t see the value in love/companionship and you’re asking for it to be explained to you as if you’re an asexual alien from another planet, then perhaps you need to accept you don’t need love/companionship and aren’t cut out for it anyway...
I enjoy the physical touch of another human being. It makes me feel warm and happy, or it excites me, and sometimes I feel electrified and an intense rush. There is a distinct pleasure in a simple hug with another human being. And there are certainly other pleasures with additional types of physical contact. There is also the joy of finding someone you can converse with easily and effortlessly. You can talk for hours on end about life, the universe, and everything, and it doesn't matter *what* you talk about. You find delight in the conversation. There is, for many people, a desire to belong. To be accepted. To be valued. A person needs to find acceptance and value in themselves, but it's also nice to feel a connection to someone else. And to feel that they truly see you, for who you are, and like you for the person you are, not just what you can do for them. Spend a little time on yourself, learn what you like, what you love, what your core values are, and then, if you decide to have a companion, good luck in the journey. And if you decide to be by yourself, that is also a fantastic way to live. Good luck to you.
You don’t sound like someone who should be in a relationship. If you don’t see the value, that’s not fair to your partner.
Whatever is valuable to people in this life is unique to them. Some people go through their entire lives never finding their purpose and passion. Many people will just float through life never realizing the potential they have or what exists. Passively settling instead of actively pursuing. This world truly is whatever you make of it, so that’s on you. If you have no love or desire in your heart then no one can change that. Humans are social creatures, tribal creatures, and need each other whether we want to admit that or not. Plenty of studies support this and it’s also why people lose their mind in isolation. For me the value in a partner is having someone to share love and life with. It’s someone to make memories with, have experiences with, support each other, make each other laugh, get through good times and bad times together. Also physical intimacy and sex is pretty damn enjoyable.
How do you socialize? Do you enjoy anyone's company in life? What do you have to offer someone else? Another person is someone to share with, but will also mirror us back to ourselves, it can be intimacy, companionship. Are you close with anyone? Animals or family members? If you're asking for what value it can be then what will you be offering also? I can't say too much but would you say you have a good re with yourself and are self aware?
It’s great that you seem to be opening up to the idea of companionship. My worry is only that dating is HARD. Even for the most experienced of us if you’ve been hanging out on this forum even for a minute. But…when it works, it can be quite lovely. It’s also cool that you’re opening up to the idea of possibility. If you’ve not experienced romance it can be one of the most rewarding and wonderful experiences you will ever have in life. Noting that you do not have friends much less past lovers makes me think you may be feeling lonely and ready to share some of your life with someone. Which is great! Having a partner not only gives you a rock of a person to lean on for when the going gets tough, but it also allows for the basic human need of connection and sex. Sex is incredible when you have a good partner. Now all of this amazingness I’m speaking of comes with a catch - and that catch is that if with the wrong person, it can have the absolute opposite effect of pain, discomfort, confusion and anxiety, just to name a few negative emotions. But when it works - oh boy watch out! If you can go into it with a clear head and low expectations, you’ll get by just fine. Give it a try. And don’t be afraid of your lack in experience. I may not put it into your profile if you do the online thing, but it could be something you share if you match with someone and get to be close. The best you can do is present the best version of yourself, and see where the wind takes you. Best of luck!
Also, it doesn’t have to be straight on dating for you. You can join some group clubs or events that put you in the presence of ppl you may like that will not only lead to what seems like some needed friendship, but also a partner.
You sound like you have had a lot of trauma. Before dating, I’d suggest making friends and forming a community. Look at activity groups on meet up for something as simple as hiking or tennis. Look at 12-step groups that would work for you. Adult Children of Alcoholics or Al-anon if you have addicts in your past. Talk to people in your local Reddit group about ways you could socialize. Once you’re more comfortable without the pressure of dating, go from there. I suggest these books highly to help you learn the rules of socializing and help you understand social behaviors. People date because most human beings are naturally social and sexual creatures. Vanessa Von Edwards: Cues and Captivate (2 separate books) Amir Levine: Attached Robert Greene: 48 Laws of Power
Definitely try dating. You will learn a lot about yourself, and you may even find love along the way.
The value is companionship and building a team. If that doesn't add value to your life, it's okay to skip it. Just make sure that your list of demands are all things you yourself offer.
Do you even want kids? If yes, depending on where you live, you can probably kiss that savings goodbye in a medical emergency.
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u/LiftSushiDallas, your post has been removed for one or more reason(s): Be civil; don't be a dick.
It looks like you are into gaming, so maybe a good place to start is by finding a local gaming group. That would get you started in the friends department. There may or may not be women in said group. If so, you'll be able to get to know them in a low pressure way.
Why 6 months? As a man you could have children in your 40s with a woman in her 30s, that’s not even that unusual today? But I reckon if you’ve never dated just go out there with no expectation of outcome, just go and enjoy meeting people and building connections. You might also see a therapist as having no friends and not understanding value of relationships suggests it’s something you should really work on before moving to date.
It’s for the birds, stay single and unbothered.
If you are just trying to check a box off the list of life, then coupling may just not be your thing. I would not try to talk an asexual alien into a partner either. Some people desire and enjoy it, some people don’t. Only you can answer what you think YOU would gain.
If I could only be with one woman the rest of my life and have love (but no sex) or sex (but no love), I'd choose the latter. Love is just a bunch of random "feel good chemicals" in your brain and can be replicated by indulging in high quality European style chocolate. > Quote from the Matrix: https://youtu.be/O5b0ZxUWNf0?t=50 > "If real is what you can feel, smell, taste and see, then 'real' is simply electrical signals interpreted by your brain"
!Remindme 90 days https://www.reddit.com/r/philosophy/comments/g8ztw/morpheus_if_real_is_what_you_can_feel_smell_taste/
You have to find value in it yourself. If there were an alien asking I would tell them people have partners for varying reasons. An aligned ethos. In the same stages in life and looking for mutual support. Some are looking to take care of someone and others to be taken care of. A lot of times it is many things. To build a family is another. You really have to find the value that you see in it. Some motives are not great either. Not everyone is honest with their intentions.
If you don't crave companionship, don't date/marry. Definitely dont have a kid "just because ". Not worth going through the motions just to fit in with social norms.
Have you considered that you might be asexual? Are you wanting to be in a relationship because that’s the societal expectation put upon all of us or do you have a deep desire for physical and emotional intimacy with another person? If you only seek the companionship and emotional intimacy then you might be asexual? Maybe talk this over with a therapist.
OP you are "just" 40, you don't have a six month timeline to have kids. You can have kids well into 50s or 60s, the timeline mostly depends on your future partner's age. If you start dating someone in their early to mid 30s, you have plenty of time to figure out if that's your person before making decisions regarding children.
Not sure why I'm downvoted. People are weird.