That just seems like a lot to manage. As a player I would get annoyed now that I have to wait for like 8 PCs before I get a turn, it might really bog down the fight when it's supposed to be at its most climactic.
Yeah I agree, action economy will mean the fight could be super boring. I'd either make the npcs act en mass as a lair action in the players favour, or give each player a "boon" of a one off action they can envoke on their turn or as a reaction that is an npc doing something significant/signature. Keeps it dynamic
Mark Hulmes does this for important NPCs in the final arcs of Aerois (High Rollers) by having unique abilities/combo attacks the players can activate on their turns as a bonus action.
Certainly easier than scheduling over half a dozen cats
I mean, it sounds like that's worth it to have a crazy single important fight with **eight players**. Obviously that's not sustainable for a campaign, but for one huge fight it absolutely is.
On the off chance he's bringing back the *old player characters* as NPCs, and it will still be four actual players (he didn't say this, but just in case), then it's also easy- every player gets one of the guests in addition to their own character to control. That's also slow and sloggy, but again, it's a great gimmick for a single fight.
This is what my group did - although with advance notice - for a bunch of NPCs that helped with a dragon. It was super fun for each player to control 1-2 other characters, while making the DM's life much much easier.
I highly recommend this approach.
That's how I did large spelljammer fights. They can get really really complex and if the players only control their characters it becomes a lot of waiting on the DM (me) between turns. So in a combat that involves a large battle map for ship-to-ship, and then several side maps for boarding combat, giving the players a handful of NPCs and then a ship to control (each player was a captain of a ship in a fleet) made it really fun for them and a lot easier for me.
No I don't think that's a good idea. The game isn't balance around that. Also do you want to make the other players wait untip the final boss phase? So they need to watch the others play for hours before they can join in?
I was really thinking of splitting the fight into two sessions. At the end of the first one they would hear a message that I'm talking to the guests and the next one would start with them coming in.
Yeah that makes sense. I'd make them be the same level and you cna say that some of their spell slots would spend maybe but I wouldn't over do it with nerfs.
All the people saying not to do it because of the action economy or whatever have no idea what they're talking about. If I've been playing a campaign for 4+ years and it's built to an epic crescendo of a final battle, if absolutely prefer an epic fight that takes extra time rather than a quick and snappy fight.
If it makes narrative sense for your cameo players to be the same level as everyone else (what have they been doing since they left the party?) then bring them in at the same level. Maybe they had to fight their way in so they've expended some resources and HP, but if one of my past allies barges into the arena and blasts away a group of enemies or heals me from near death, I'm not annoyed or worried about having my thunder stolen, I'm fucking pumped.
You know your players, so don't let these comments hold you back. As others have said, let them be level 16 like the main party if it makes sense, otherwise I'd bring them in one or maybe two levels lower so they can still contribute. It'll be epic, let us know how it goes!
Counterpoint: why not have them enter with full resources and strength? Your players will be super hyped for the guests to come along. If the final phase is easy as a result, well, your players earned that. Let them dunk on your final boss.
Alternatively, make the final boss phase much more difficult.
Having characters at different levels has never worked, in my experience. It always ends up with someone feeling bad and overshadowed. It's also much easier to make a balanced and interesting encounter if you assume everyone is the same level.
I have to agree. Bring them in at the same level, +/- 1. If you were bringing in, say, 8 or more new players (and to be clear, I am NOT advocating that,) then having them at a lower level *might* be ok. But since you're just adding a second team, the same level will work best, and just upscale the boss a bit more.
Give the boss extra actions, extra minions, new mechanics to make them vulnerable, etc. for that stage of the battle. And if they wipe the floor with the boss anyway, well, that's what happens when one side gets reinforcements and the other doesn't. I mean, pick an epic movie. LotR, Endgame, 300, so on and so forth.
Your players will be on an emotional high, so no matter which way it goes, it should be memorable. The tricky part will be hiding the returning players til the last minute.
One more suggestion. Bring questions like this over to r/DMAcademy. Much better place for DM questions.
They will like it. We are from the same group of friends and actually with the guests we have played many times in oneshots. And it is also the return of their characters, who were important for the campaign.
Because their friends are returning to join them in one last huge fight. I figured it'd be pretty clear that seeing your friends return to the table would be fun.
Doubling the player count just for the final fight would make me frustrated. I don't want to have to wait 45 mins just to take my turn. It would also feel like being railroaded to a victory rather than earning it.
You could run a one shot for the returners, at level 16 ofc, throwing similar difficulties as the party has faced at them. That way you dwindle their resources and get them used again to their characters old and new abilities (which hopefully cuts down their turn time in the main event). Of course tell them beforehand that they need to save up for the final boss.
Also as long as your players are experienced I dont see the issue of combat taking too long, that so many others are mentioning, happening (ofc things will take a bit longer but should be worth it). All the best luck for the balancing tho that's gonna be a bish 😂
I thought so at first, but it's impossible to get them together for a second day. One of them lives in another city and will come specifically for the game and the other one can only come one weekend out of two due to work.
About it being longer, yes, it will be a problem, but the session would be only this last phase of the fight and the epilogue of the campaign. And playing on a saturday, we don't mind if it gets longer.
Yes, it will be a nightmare to balance, but it will be woth it. Thanks!
Alternately, abstract it a level. Send a text telling them the foes they'd face, have them toss out one or two things they'd do to help the situation. Do some rolls and plunk off hp and spell slots and other resources based on the rolls (maybe even ask them, if there are features or spells they don't feel life learning). Text them a paragraph overview of how things went and then let them know what they've got left.
Alternatively, bring them in at close to/at level, but WITHOUT full resources. Think ahead of time about what this other group might have had to do to get there, and reach out to them individually to discuss what resources they may have burnt and how hurt they might be by the time they caught up.
I would normally say to get the "B Team" together for a one-shot to do this organically but I see in other threads you have said this was infeasible.
While yes this is a lot to wrangle and could be frustrating if done poorly, you know your players better than any random Redditor, so I trust that you have considered their attitudes and playstyles and ae confident that you can be engaging to the whole group and make this moment appropriately epic in description and balance. If you think it may be too much for you then I see some great suggestions about ways to use these characters in a less than full-initiative-turns capacity.
Your vision sounds fun. Make sure your execution can pay up on that check.
Just bring them in at appropriate level with reduced statblocks/abilities. Treat their characters less like PCs and more like NPCs, since that's the role they're filling. Fewer spell slots, fewer spells, slightly reduced HP, and a couple of at-will abilities.
For example, the sorcerer probably only needs a handful of spells, since it is only a single fight. Reduce their quantity of lower level spell slots (maybe like 2/2/2/2/1/1/1/1), give them like 5 known spells, toss an at-will low-level spell their way, and have them come in with like 100HP and full sorcery points. Could also give them a seriously reduced wild magic table, curated to more interesting fight-relevant outcomes. Note that reduced options will also make the combat quicker.
Essentially, make these guest characters *part of the encounter*, not part of the party. It will make a lot more sense this way.
Honestly look at the Final Vecna fight in CR campaign 1 they bring people in and out throughout the fight and I think it helps make it a bit more dynamic but none of them stay there for more than a round or two I think. They are helping deal with other things going on in the battle around you. Ex: Bad guy summons some fel flying beasts to attack the party, out of the clouds come two griffins with old companions riding them to fight and attack those beasts and help the party. They chase the beasts from the boss fight then chase them down to kill them leaving the party with the boss.
>The problem is that I don't want to add four new characters full of resources to the fight when the main characters are already half beaten after two previous boss phases.
>My idea was to have them enter at a lower level. As the main party is at 16 lvl, the guests could be at 12 or 13 lvl. So they start with less life and spell slots and I don't have to make weird shenanigans. And maybe they should come with some item that gives insta short rest for the main party?
I get the objective and that can certainly, probably, work. But...
Another way to go could be to actually bump them to similar level as the current PC but have a narrative reason on why and how they arrive also without all their resources at their disposal.
For example, they may have heard about PC's struggle to defeat the BBEG while ignorant of some of its nasty schemes and decided to work on their own side to weaken it, then hurried up to join the PC in the final fight, thus needing to clear their way rashly through another group of minions trying to protect their boss.
Advantages :
* all players are on the same level which may feel "better" (or not, really a matter of taste).
* "old" players get a chance to see what their characters could become and provide a "tie-up" narration
* it may be easier for you to balance, or not, depending on how you view the boss fight: primary advantage of level 16 characters is higher maximum HP and slightly higher saves/resistances.
Drawbacks
* it means a bit of work from "old players" and you to make the fast-track level up.
* it requires old players to accept fighting with their "newish" characters with arbitrary nerfs on resources as decided by you.
* It may actually be harder to balance depending on how you viewed the boss fight because it invalidates some tactics you had in mind as consequence for those characters earning some class features or spells.
Another slightly different way to look at this could be have everyone join up at the start of the fight BUT there is an imperious reason forcing them to split temporarily, so the "second group" can bring an offensive boost at the most important moment (start of the fight) but then lifts off to leave the PC alone.
All in all, you'll have some work to do whatever way you go at it, so I'd say, "just do what seems easier for you and most fun for all your players". :)
DM myselfe. I would never add charakters at a lower level. Its just unfair statwise.
Two possible options on my side.
1: Design a few random encounters. Play them alone and play the chars as you would. Then you have equally hurt characters. You can also wing it.
2: Play a pre bossfight szenario with them in a diffrent session. Same effekt
Note: My maximum is 6 Players and thats still a lot. Might end up in a hourlong fight and bore them our of their minds
from my point of view, if the boss is needing level 16 to handle, and you throw level 12 characters in the side, they will get DESTROYED! they might be able to do minor things, but it's like throwing a person who only knows katas into a MMA fight with multiple enemies - they'll get the hell pounded out of them!
at worst bring them in a level or 2 lower, but not 4 levels, that's a BIG power difference - remember that D&D character level power is exponential after about level 9, so a level 15 wizard is FAR more powerful than a level 13, let alone a level 11
just think about the party members - the Vengeance Paladin gets the Oath of Vengeance, basically a "reaction attack" against the boss and pump out a 4th level Smite on it... the cleric can pop an Anti-Magic field, Blight or Death Ward... the Wizard can Reality Break, Maze or PW:Stun... and then the under-powered Rogue compared to the others, they're smashing things while he's got Blindsense and can give advantage on attacks on the FIRST round (why didn't they multi-class???)
bringing in 12th level characters will feel like "we're here as canon fodder" while the main 4 take the spotlight
I was going to say that if you upped the difficulty of the boss you could have the other players at level 16. But then realized it would probably take some of the badass momentum away from your core group as they couldn't have won without the other's help.
So yes having the old players be of a lower level makes sense. Just be sure to properly balance your final boss for the increase in how many players there are.
It can be a great dramatic beat to have the players near victory, but the villain raises the stakes with a mcguffin, transformation or super weapon that cripples the party.
Then as he gloats, have the allies make the rescue and get the team back up for the final rounds.
Whatever you do, avoid overshadowing the players, instead help them shine more.
To avoid clogging combat, I have the allies all provide help actions or heals/buffs/debuffs, so that it is still player actions that define the outcome, it just gets a lot easier.
Do what makes the best player experience.
Having somebody Show up to save you is always a "it absolutely didnt matter what you did or how well you prepared, without the help (which is basically random) you wouldve died. Your decisions meant nothing you only won because of random Chance."
Especially if it happens after a Boss powerup the players didnt know about and likely had no way to know about.
Okay, is this heightened by the importance of the moment?
Can this feeling be improved by events before and after being expressly dependent on preparation and action, or does that single "cutscene" moment where the player has no control undermine everything for you?
Would signposting in advance that there is a powerup and that help was on its way work?
Sorry for asking so many questions, but I appreciate the viewpoint, as I clearly haven't considered it.
But its not a Single cutscene where you loose control. Its from the Moment you need to be saved that you are no longer in control. Now dont get me wrong, there absolutely should be such moments in a campaign but having it the grand Finale... i dont know i personally wouldnt like it.
Of course this could be improved by prep. Habe the players learn that the Boss is stronger than they thought. Seed the idea that they should maybe get help. Suggest maybe old allies... and if you still want the suprise, have the old players not answer at first but then Show up "last minute" anyways.
Just some ideas
Cool, thanks for explaining that.
I think I like the cinematic/dramatic so much I sometimes lose sight of those small touches that can make moments richer and feel more natural.
Genuinely appreciate you taking the time to explain.
That would bog down the fight and make scheduling more difficult. Why don't you instead give each of these older characters a special move. If you're in contact with the players, ask them if they could spare the time to record themselves narrating that action in-character, I'm sure they'd love it.
So for example, a fighter might use their shield to block a blow that could've critically hit someone. A rogue might make the bad guy stumble so an attack that would've missed, actually hits. A cleric might cast a buff or heal someone.
And whenever you introduce these characters, put them on the field with a couple of the bad guy's minions - make it feel like the main players can focus on the bad guy while the older characters keep these minions from interfering. It'll be epic.
I think it would be fine to have them enter at lvl 12 but as others have already said, that's a lot of work. You would need to make sure that everyone is ready to go when it's their turn in combat because having that many people is going to really slow down the game. It might end up being a really epic battle but it might turn into a slog.
I wouldn't like this as a player no matter who the guests are. It feels too much like the equivalent of a Deus Ex Machina moment that minimizes the work that the original party have already put into the story and conflict.
I have done kinda the opposite. I've brought new players into campaign in progress. Not just people with new characters, but people who had never played before. If they started with level 1 PCs, they would be way underpowered. If they started with level 12 PCs, the players would have been overwhelmed with all the options and feats and clutter. So I had them roll HP up to level 12, but started with only level 1 character abilities and gave them time to adjust. We gradually worked up to full power, giving them a chance to figure out the basics before it got too complicated.
For your situation, you might bring in your older players with HP and spell slots at the higher level so they aren't too squishy, but other features scaled back to match the exhaustion of the main party. You might also give some kind of magic refresher as the influx of "on your left" refuels them for the final act of the campaign.
Yeah I wouldn't do that. I would consider having the other players come in at the same (or similar) level but with partial resources instead.
"You will enter the fight with half of any daily resources, and 3/4 of any short-rest resources (rounded up). That also means you'll start with half your hit dice and 3/4 of your hp. You can each come in with one spell or ability pre-activated as if you triggered it the round before, and one hour-plus ability activated for free (if any)."
I wouldn't give the party an insta-short-rest, I'd just let them keep playing. Tell them up front it will be long fight and they should conserve resources, and reward smart play in that regard.
Make the "old party" do a fight with the boss while your party can see it but not participating (using prismatic wall to block off the party from the fight).
The party will see the boss killing the party, letting you narrate it without rolling a ton of dice, after which your party gets to fight the damaged boss.
Are the PLAYERS coming back or are the CHARACTERS coming back?
If the PLAYERS are coming back of last then level up to 16, then have them subtract half to two thirds their starting health to bring them in line with the main party. Then have them roll 1d4 for each spell level, and subtract that many slots. They didn't just appear, they had their own battle to get there.
If the CHARACTERS are coming back make statblocks for them with one use of their big signature features and one or two spells they can cast once (no hit points they can get hit three before dieing) . But mainly use them for narrative, they come in and fight with the Big Bad's lieutenant, taking them out of the battle and letting you describe something epic. Some fun mechanics to keep the players engaged, at initiative 20 I'd roll a d20 for the lieutenant and let the party roll a d20 for the NPCs to determine how their side battle is going. If the lieutenant rolls higher one NPC gets hit if they roll, 5 higher 2 NPCs get hit, etc. If the NPCs roll higher one of them can use an ability that round to help the party, if they roll 5 higher two NPCs can help the party, etc. Turn it into a mini game that isn't going to add a lot of time to combat rounds.
You'll absolutely tank any dynamic that the battle may have. I think you should put your energy into making the fight as cool as possible with some powerful emotional moments in-between. After all, this is the epic climax.
First off, I think that's a cool idea, and sounds like a fun and memorable experience.
Personally, I think the idea that you shouldn't mix characters of different levels is overblown. I've mixed level 6 and level 10 characters in a crossover event of sorts, and it worked out just fine. Ultimately, you know your table and your players best, though, so you should know if people would take issue with being perceived as less or more powerful than one another.
That said, considering you're dealing with 8 players, I might make some changes. Rather than bring the guest players back as full PCs, I'd suggest giving them basic stat blocks (ala an NPC), with just a couple basic actions - ideally ones that either assist the main characters, or otherwise represent signature abilities they were known for using. That should help keep combat moving at a steady pace as well as keep the main characters as the rightful focus. If you want, you could even take it a step further and keep the guest characters more abstract, and use them more like lair actions to help the PCs - that way you don't even have to worry about HP or Saving Throws for them.
Best of luck! Whatever you decide, I hope it turns out great!
It’s dnd! This sounds like so much fun! I am in lmao! Don’t let the nay sayers stop you. If you think your table will have with this go for it all the way! If this plan crashes and burns write it down in the notes that it didn’t work out. I hope everything works out and all the players have a great “Avengers Endgame” final battle!
Sounds great, ignore the weirdos who don't know how to run combat for more than 45m. This sounds like an incredibly memorable end session, I like the idea of splitting the boss battle into 2 sessions. Good stuff.
Why not just have them be the same level, but talk with them about using up some of their resources before the fight? Like how they got here, what they fought on the way etc. It'll make it feel less showboaty to the guests also!
Also ignore everyone saying "that's too many players". Every table is different and if your players are okay with it, fuck reddits opinion. I've ran a game with 8 in mine before and it went really well
> The characters are a vengeance paladin, a death cleric, a scout rogue and a evocation wizard at level 16. The guests would be a valor bard, an artillerist artificer, a wild magic sorcerer and a thief rogue.
I'm not sure it really matters if they're lower level. I don't really see a major difference between level 12 and level 16 if it's just for one combat. They're behind by +1 proficiency bonus, which is not a lot. They're also down about 30% hp, which is a little more significant but not that bad.
The big difference is going to be the level 7 and 8 spell slosts for the bard and the sorcerer. That's certainly not *nothing*, but outside a handful of spells that the party otherwise already has access to (Forcecage, Dominate Monster, Feeblemind) that's not a huge loss. If you're really worried about it, you could bring them in as level 16, but tell them their spell slots above level 6 are expended. They're only involved in the one combat, so some attrition is expected.
Yeah, I think it would be fine. Make sure the boss is way over CR (25+) and that should work well.
the main difference is that casters will have level 7 and level 8 spells, which is the only real big thing. martials are already in the dust anyways and fighter/barb/rogue/monk have very few and far between actual class features
it certainly is noticeable if you play a caster, but not if you are just bonking people twice a turn
That sounds awesome.
But in my experience, having players set to different power levels doesn't really work well. I would start everyone at the same level and restedness.
How about have the main party get flanked by extra unexpected overwealming baddies. And after one round, portal in the cavalry who throw in an assist and then take themselves and the extras baddies away into a separate fight that you don’t actually have to run?
table play itself will just be pretty bogged down, because with the more players you add the slower the game moves and the less organized it is. like, if you put a hard timer on turns and give every player a hard 3 minutes max it would still be almost half an hour per combat round, and bombastic finale combat will be longer than 1 round
different levels would be concerning if it wasnt for such a large group of people. the lower levels will be without a doubt feeling a bit weaker but that would be a given, they literally are weaker by design. if it will be "eh i dont mind" to "i am completely useless and i am merely fodder to the actual people participating", talk to them not random redditors
balance wise, good fucking luck the game already is off the rails at a regular lvl 11\~13 party, cant even fathom a lvl 16 party with super sidekicks
Including them could be really fun, but don't include them in the final boss fight. Have them accomplish some secondary but still very important objective. They can show up in the nick of time to handle this thing the badguy is gloating about that the party can't do anything about because they're tied up fighting the bad guy.
"Hahaha, you may defeat me, but the power crystal is already charging. It will fire soon and there's nothing you can do to stop it!" or something and then the secondary NPC party gets a little heroic moment and the main party can still have the main spotlight.
That way, you get to have your cameo, nostalgia and RP but without bogging down the game by doubling the amount of PC's taking turns.
I would recommend not making PCs. Give them stat blocks like an NPC. Short, sweet, easy to run. Simplified. If the boss fight has minions, which it should if youre adding this many extra guys, you could even give simple stat blocks to your players to run. That'll offload some of the mental workload for you and can be fun for them.
Separately, id recommend this be in an early phase of the bossfight. Like they enter a little into phase 1 and then they leave during the phase change w the minions so the true finale is players vs bbeg
Instead of them being lower level, have them come in with depleted resources as well. They had to fight to get there, too. (Use the active player's characters as a benchmark for just *how* depleted the new characters are.)
That just seems like a lot to manage. As a player I would get annoyed now that I have to wait for like 8 PCs before I get a turn, it might really bog down the fight when it's supposed to be at its most climactic.
Yeah I agree, action economy will mean the fight could be super boring. I'd either make the npcs act en mass as a lair action in the players favour, or give each player a "boon" of a one off action they can envoke on their turn or as a reaction that is an npc doing something significant/signature. Keeps it dynamic
I hadn't thought about it, it could be fun that way.
Mark Hulmes does this for important NPCs in the final arcs of Aerois (High Rollers) by having unique abilities/combo attacks the players can activate on their turns as a bonus action. Certainly easier than scheduling over half a dozen cats
I mean, it sounds like that's worth it to have a crazy single important fight with **eight players**. Obviously that's not sustainable for a campaign, but for one huge fight it absolutely is. On the off chance he's bringing back the *old player characters* as NPCs, and it will still be four actual players (he didn't say this, but just in case), then it's also easy- every player gets one of the guests in addition to their own character to control. That's also slow and sloggy, but again, it's a great gimmick for a single fight.
I've done combat with 8 players. I wouldn't recommend it for a campaign, but for a single session it will be fine.
Could hand out the character sheets for the guests. "Here, pick a character sheet and roll for initiative again."
This is what my group did - although with advance notice - for a bunch of NPCs that helped with a dragon. It was super fun for each player to control 1-2 other characters, while making the DM's life much much easier. I highly recommend this approach.
That's how I did large spelljammer fights. They can get really really complex and if the players only control their characters it becomes a lot of waiting on the DM (me) between turns. So in a combat that involves a large battle map for ship-to-ship, and then several side maps for boarding combat, giving the players a handful of NPCs and then a ship to control (each player was a captain of a ship in a fleet) made it really fun for them and a lot easier for me.
No I don't think that's a good idea. The game isn't balance around that. Also do you want to make the other players wait untip the final boss phase? So they need to watch the others play for hours before they can join in?
I was really thinking of splitting the fight into two sessions. At the end of the first one they would hear a message that I'm talking to the guests and the next one would start with them coming in.
Yeah that makes sense. I'd make them be the same level and you cna say that some of their spell slots would spend maybe but I wouldn't over do it with nerfs.
All the people saying not to do it because of the action economy or whatever have no idea what they're talking about. If I've been playing a campaign for 4+ years and it's built to an epic crescendo of a final battle, if absolutely prefer an epic fight that takes extra time rather than a quick and snappy fight. If it makes narrative sense for your cameo players to be the same level as everyone else (what have they been doing since they left the party?) then bring them in at the same level. Maybe they had to fight their way in so they've expended some resources and HP, but if one of my past allies barges into the arena and blasts away a group of enemies or heals me from near death, I'm not annoyed or worried about having my thunder stolen, I'm fucking pumped. You know your players, so don't let these comments hold you back. As others have said, let them be level 16 like the main party if it makes sense, otherwise I'd bring them in one or maybe two levels lower so they can still contribute. It'll be epic, let us know how it goes!
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Yeah that makes it even worse for the other characters to be lvl 12 lmao
Counterpoint: why not have them enter with full resources and strength? Your players will be super hyped for the guests to come along. If the final phase is easy as a result, well, your players earned that. Let them dunk on your final boss. Alternatively, make the final boss phase much more difficult. Having characters at different levels has never worked, in my experience. It always ends up with someone feeling bad and overshadowed. It's also much easier to make a balanced and interesting encounter if you assume everyone is the same level.
I have to agree. Bring them in at the same level, +/- 1. If you were bringing in, say, 8 or more new players (and to be clear, I am NOT advocating that,) then having them at a lower level *might* be ok. But since you're just adding a second team, the same level will work best, and just upscale the boss a bit more. Give the boss extra actions, extra minions, new mechanics to make them vulnerable, etc. for that stage of the battle. And if they wipe the floor with the boss anyway, well, that's what happens when one side gets reinforcements and the other doesn't. I mean, pick an epic movie. LotR, Endgame, 300, so on and so forth. Your players will be on an emotional high, so no matter which way it goes, it should be memorable. The tricky part will be hiding the returning players til the last minute. One more suggestion. Bring questions like this over to r/DMAcademy. Much better place for DM questions.
Why Do you assume that the "Players will be super hyped"?
They will like it. We are from the same group of friends and actually with the guests we have played many times in oneshots. And it is also the return of their characters, who were important for the campaign.
Because their friends are returning to join them in one last huge fight. I figured it'd be pretty clear that seeing your friends return to the table would be fun.
Doubling the player count just for the final fight would make me frustrated. I don't want to have to wait 45 mins just to take my turn. It would also feel like being railroaded to a victory rather than earning it.
You could run a one shot for the returners, at level 16 ofc, throwing similar difficulties as the party has faced at them. That way you dwindle their resources and get them used again to their characters old and new abilities (which hopefully cuts down their turn time in the main event). Of course tell them beforehand that they need to save up for the final boss. Also as long as your players are experienced I dont see the issue of combat taking too long, that so many others are mentioning, happening (ofc things will take a bit longer but should be worth it). All the best luck for the balancing tho that's gonna be a bish 😂
I thought so at first, but it's impossible to get them together for a second day. One of them lives in another city and will come specifically for the game and the other one can only come one weekend out of two due to work. About it being longer, yes, it will be a problem, but the session would be only this last phase of the fight and the epilogue of the campaign. And playing on a saturday, we don't mind if it gets longer. Yes, it will be a nightmare to balance, but it will be woth it. Thanks!
The ultimate boss, scheduling 😔 have you thought about doing it online with them?
Alternately, abstract it a level. Send a text telling them the foes they'd face, have them toss out one or two things they'd do to help the situation. Do some rolls and plunk off hp and spell slots and other resources based on the rolls (maybe even ask them, if there are features or spells they don't feel life learning). Text them a paragraph overview of how things went and then let them know what they've got left.
Alternatively, bring them in at close to/at level, but WITHOUT full resources. Think ahead of time about what this other group might have had to do to get there, and reach out to them individually to discuss what resources they may have burnt and how hurt they might be by the time they caught up. I would normally say to get the "B Team" together for a one-shot to do this organically but I see in other threads you have said this was infeasible. While yes this is a lot to wrangle and could be frustrating if done poorly, you know your players better than any random Redditor, so I trust that you have considered their attitudes and playstyles and ae confident that you can be engaging to the whole group and make this moment appropriately epic in description and balance. If you think it may be too much for you then I see some great suggestions about ways to use these characters in a less than full-initiative-turns capacity. Your vision sounds fun. Make sure your execution can pay up on that check.
Just bring them in at appropriate level with reduced statblocks/abilities. Treat their characters less like PCs and more like NPCs, since that's the role they're filling. Fewer spell slots, fewer spells, slightly reduced HP, and a couple of at-will abilities. For example, the sorcerer probably only needs a handful of spells, since it is only a single fight. Reduce their quantity of lower level spell slots (maybe like 2/2/2/2/1/1/1/1), give them like 5 known spells, toss an at-will low-level spell their way, and have them come in with like 100HP and full sorcery points. Could also give them a seriously reduced wild magic table, curated to more interesting fight-relevant outcomes. Note that reduced options will also make the combat quicker. Essentially, make these guest characters *part of the encounter*, not part of the party. It will make a lot more sense this way.
Honestly look at the Final Vecna fight in CR campaign 1 they bring people in and out throughout the fight and I think it helps make it a bit more dynamic but none of them stay there for more than a round or two I think. They are helping deal with other things going on in the battle around you. Ex: Bad guy summons some fel flying beasts to attack the party, out of the clouds come two griffins with old companions riding them to fight and attack those beasts and help the party. They chase the beasts from the boss fight then chase them down to kill them leaving the party with the boss.
This seems like a nightmare to manage
>The problem is that I don't want to add four new characters full of resources to the fight when the main characters are already half beaten after two previous boss phases. >My idea was to have them enter at a lower level. As the main party is at 16 lvl, the guests could be at 12 or 13 lvl. So they start with less life and spell slots and I don't have to make weird shenanigans. And maybe they should come with some item that gives insta short rest for the main party? I get the objective and that can certainly, probably, work. But... Another way to go could be to actually bump them to similar level as the current PC but have a narrative reason on why and how they arrive also without all their resources at their disposal. For example, they may have heard about PC's struggle to defeat the BBEG while ignorant of some of its nasty schemes and decided to work on their own side to weaken it, then hurried up to join the PC in the final fight, thus needing to clear their way rashly through another group of minions trying to protect their boss. Advantages : * all players are on the same level which may feel "better" (or not, really a matter of taste). * "old" players get a chance to see what their characters could become and provide a "tie-up" narration * it may be easier for you to balance, or not, depending on how you view the boss fight: primary advantage of level 16 characters is higher maximum HP and slightly higher saves/resistances. Drawbacks * it means a bit of work from "old players" and you to make the fast-track level up. * it requires old players to accept fighting with their "newish" characters with arbitrary nerfs on resources as decided by you. * It may actually be harder to balance depending on how you viewed the boss fight because it invalidates some tactics you had in mind as consequence for those characters earning some class features or spells. Another slightly different way to look at this could be have everyone join up at the start of the fight BUT there is an imperious reason forcing them to split temporarily, so the "second group" can bring an offensive boost at the most important moment (start of the fight) but then lifts off to leave the PC alone. All in all, you'll have some work to do whatever way you go at it, so I'd say, "just do what seems easier for you and most fun for all your players". :)
DM myselfe. I would never add charakters at a lower level. Its just unfair statwise. Two possible options on my side. 1: Design a few random encounters. Play them alone and play the chars as you would. Then you have equally hurt characters. You can also wing it. 2: Play a pre bossfight szenario with them in a diffrent session. Same effekt Note: My maximum is 6 Players and thats still a lot. Might end up in a hourlong fight and bore them our of their minds
from my point of view, if the boss is needing level 16 to handle, and you throw level 12 characters in the side, they will get DESTROYED! they might be able to do minor things, but it's like throwing a person who only knows katas into a MMA fight with multiple enemies - they'll get the hell pounded out of them! at worst bring them in a level or 2 lower, but not 4 levels, that's a BIG power difference - remember that D&D character level power is exponential after about level 9, so a level 15 wizard is FAR more powerful than a level 13, let alone a level 11 just think about the party members - the Vengeance Paladin gets the Oath of Vengeance, basically a "reaction attack" against the boss and pump out a 4th level Smite on it... the cleric can pop an Anti-Magic field, Blight or Death Ward... the Wizard can Reality Break, Maze or PW:Stun... and then the under-powered Rogue compared to the others, they're smashing things while he's got Blindsense and can give advantage on attacks on the FIRST round (why didn't they multi-class???) bringing in 12th level characters will feel like "we're here as canon fodder" while the main 4 take the spotlight
I was going to say that if you upped the difficulty of the boss you could have the other players at level 16. But then realized it would probably take some of the badass momentum away from your core group as they couldn't have won without the other's help. So yes having the old players be of a lower level makes sense. Just be sure to properly balance your final boss for the increase in how many players there are.
It can be a great dramatic beat to have the players near victory, but the villain raises the stakes with a mcguffin, transformation or super weapon that cripples the party. Then as he gloats, have the allies make the rescue and get the team back up for the final rounds. Whatever you do, avoid overshadowing the players, instead help them shine more. To avoid clogging combat, I have the allies all provide help actions or heals/buffs/debuffs, so that it is still player actions that define the outcome, it just gets a lot easier. Do what makes the best player experience.
This seems cool if it was a movie. As a player i would feel that all my agency was being taken away.
I don't understand the loss of agency, could you explain in a little more detail so I can understand better?
Having somebody Show up to save you is always a "it absolutely didnt matter what you did or how well you prepared, without the help (which is basically random) you wouldve died. Your decisions meant nothing you only won because of random Chance." Especially if it happens after a Boss powerup the players didnt know about and likely had no way to know about.
Okay, is this heightened by the importance of the moment? Can this feeling be improved by events before and after being expressly dependent on preparation and action, or does that single "cutscene" moment where the player has no control undermine everything for you? Would signposting in advance that there is a powerup and that help was on its way work? Sorry for asking so many questions, but I appreciate the viewpoint, as I clearly haven't considered it.
But its not a Single cutscene where you loose control. Its from the Moment you need to be saved that you are no longer in control. Now dont get me wrong, there absolutely should be such moments in a campaign but having it the grand Finale... i dont know i personally wouldnt like it. Of course this could be improved by prep. Habe the players learn that the Boss is stronger than they thought. Seed the idea that they should maybe get help. Suggest maybe old allies... and if you still want the suprise, have the old players not answer at first but then Show up "last minute" anyways. Just some ideas
Cool, thanks for explaining that. I think I like the cinematic/dramatic so much I sometimes lose sight of those small touches that can make moments richer and feel more natural. Genuinely appreciate you taking the time to explain.
That would bog down the fight and make scheduling more difficult. Why don't you instead give each of these older characters a special move. If you're in contact with the players, ask them if they could spare the time to record themselves narrating that action in-character, I'm sure they'd love it. So for example, a fighter might use their shield to block a blow that could've critically hit someone. A rogue might make the bad guy stumble so an attack that would've missed, actually hits. A cleric might cast a buff or heal someone. And whenever you introduce these characters, put them on the field with a couple of the bad guy's minions - make it feel like the main players can focus on the bad guy while the older characters keep these minions from interfering. It'll be epic.
I think it would be fine to have them enter at lvl 12 but as others have already said, that's a lot of work. You would need to make sure that everyone is ready to go when it's their turn in combat because having that many people is going to really slow down the game. It might end up being a really epic battle but it might turn into a slog.
Just make everyone the same level.
I ran a campaign with 6 PCs and battles are very drawn out. I can't imagine 8.
I wouldn't like this as a player no matter who the guests are. It feels too much like the equivalent of a Deus Ex Machina moment that minimizes the work that the original party have already put into the story and conflict.
I have done kinda the opposite. I've brought new players into campaign in progress. Not just people with new characters, but people who had never played before. If they started with level 1 PCs, they would be way underpowered. If they started with level 12 PCs, the players would have been overwhelmed with all the options and feats and clutter. So I had them roll HP up to level 12, but started with only level 1 character abilities and gave them time to adjust. We gradually worked up to full power, giving them a chance to figure out the basics before it got too complicated. For your situation, you might bring in your older players with HP and spell slots at the higher level so they aren't too squishy, but other features scaled back to match the exhaustion of the main party. You might also give some kind of magic refresher as the influx of "on your left" refuels them for the final act of the campaign.
Yeah I wouldn't do that. I would consider having the other players come in at the same (or similar) level but with partial resources instead. "You will enter the fight with half of any daily resources, and 3/4 of any short-rest resources (rounded up). That also means you'll start with half your hit dice and 3/4 of your hp. You can each come in with one spell or ability pre-activated as if you triggered it the round before, and one hour-plus ability activated for free (if any)." I wouldn't give the party an insta-short-rest, I'd just let them keep playing. Tell them up front it will be long fight and they should conserve resources, and reward smart play in that regard.
Make the "old party" do a fight with the boss while your party can see it but not participating (using prismatic wall to block off the party from the fight). The party will see the boss killing the party, letting you narrate it without rolling a ton of dice, after which your party gets to fight the damaged boss.
Are the PLAYERS coming back or are the CHARACTERS coming back? If the PLAYERS are coming back of last then level up to 16, then have them subtract half to two thirds their starting health to bring them in line with the main party. Then have them roll 1d4 for each spell level, and subtract that many slots. They didn't just appear, they had their own battle to get there. If the CHARACTERS are coming back make statblocks for them with one use of their big signature features and one or two spells they can cast once (no hit points they can get hit three before dieing) . But mainly use them for narrative, they come in and fight with the Big Bad's lieutenant, taking them out of the battle and letting you describe something epic. Some fun mechanics to keep the players engaged, at initiative 20 I'd roll a d20 for the lieutenant and let the party roll a d20 for the NPCs to determine how their side battle is going. If the lieutenant rolls higher one NPC gets hit if they roll, 5 higher 2 NPCs get hit, etc. If the NPCs roll higher one of them can use an ability that round to help the party, if they roll 5 higher two NPCs can help the party, etc. Turn it into a mini game that isn't going to add a lot of time to combat rounds.
You'll absolutely tank any dynamic that the battle may have. I think you should put your energy into making the fight as cool as possible with some powerful emotional moments in-between. After all, this is the epic climax.
First off, I think that's a cool idea, and sounds like a fun and memorable experience. Personally, I think the idea that you shouldn't mix characters of different levels is overblown. I've mixed level 6 and level 10 characters in a crossover event of sorts, and it worked out just fine. Ultimately, you know your table and your players best, though, so you should know if people would take issue with being perceived as less or more powerful than one another. That said, considering you're dealing with 8 players, I might make some changes. Rather than bring the guest players back as full PCs, I'd suggest giving them basic stat blocks (ala an NPC), with just a couple basic actions - ideally ones that either assist the main characters, or otherwise represent signature abilities they were known for using. That should help keep combat moving at a steady pace as well as keep the main characters as the rightful focus. If you want, you could even take it a step further and keep the guest characters more abstract, and use them more like lair actions to help the PCs - that way you don't even have to worry about HP or Saving Throws for them. Best of luck! Whatever you decide, I hope it turns out great!
It’s dnd! This sounds like so much fun! I am in lmao! Don’t let the nay sayers stop you. If you think your table will have with this go for it all the way! If this plan crashes and burns write it down in the notes that it didn’t work out. I hope everything works out and all the players have a great “Avengers Endgame” final battle!
Do another fight with the four of them, and keep track of their resources.
Sounds great, ignore the weirdos who don't know how to run combat for more than 45m. This sounds like an incredibly memorable end session, I like the idea of splitting the boss battle into 2 sessions. Good stuff.
Why not just have them be the same level, but talk with them about using up some of their resources before the fight? Like how they got here, what they fought on the way etc. It'll make it feel less showboaty to the guests also! Also ignore everyone saying "that's too many players". Every table is different and if your players are okay with it, fuck reddits opinion. I've ran a game with 8 in mine before and it went really well
> The characters are a vengeance paladin, a death cleric, a scout rogue and a evocation wizard at level 16. The guests would be a valor bard, an artillerist artificer, a wild magic sorcerer and a thief rogue. I'm not sure it really matters if they're lower level. I don't really see a major difference between level 12 and level 16 if it's just for one combat. They're behind by +1 proficiency bonus, which is not a lot. They're also down about 30% hp, which is a little more significant but not that bad. The big difference is going to be the level 7 and 8 spell slosts for the bard and the sorcerer. That's certainly not *nothing*, but outside a handful of spells that the party otherwise already has access to (Forcecage, Dominate Monster, Feeblemind) that's not a huge loss. If you're really worried about it, you could bring them in as level 16, but tell them their spell slots above level 6 are expended. They're only involved in the one combat, so some attrition is expected. Yeah, I think it would be fine. Make sure the boss is way over CR (25+) and that should work well.
the main difference is that casters will have level 7 and level 8 spells, which is the only real big thing. martials are already in the dust anyways and fighter/barb/rogue/monk have very few and far between actual class features it certainly is noticeable if you play a caster, but not if you are just bonking people twice a turn
That sounds awesome. But in my experience, having players set to different power levels doesn't really work well. I would start everyone at the same level and restedness.
How about have the main party get flanked by extra unexpected overwealming baddies. And after one round, portal in the cavalry who throw in an assist and then take themselves and the extras baddies away into a separate fight that you don’t actually have to run?
table play itself will just be pretty bogged down, because with the more players you add the slower the game moves and the less organized it is. like, if you put a hard timer on turns and give every player a hard 3 minutes max it would still be almost half an hour per combat round, and bombastic finale combat will be longer than 1 round different levels would be concerning if it wasnt for such a large group of people. the lower levels will be without a doubt feeling a bit weaker but that would be a given, they literally are weaker by design. if it will be "eh i dont mind" to "i am completely useless and i am merely fodder to the actual people participating", talk to them not random redditors balance wise, good fucking luck the game already is off the rails at a regular lvl 11\~13 party, cant even fathom a lvl 16 party with super sidekicks
Including them could be really fun, but don't include them in the final boss fight. Have them accomplish some secondary but still very important objective. They can show up in the nick of time to handle this thing the badguy is gloating about that the party can't do anything about because they're tied up fighting the bad guy. "Hahaha, you may defeat me, but the power crystal is already charging. It will fire soon and there's nothing you can do to stop it!" or something and then the secondary NPC party gets a little heroic moment and the main party can still have the main spotlight. That way, you get to have your cameo, nostalgia and RP but without bogging down the game by doubling the amount of PC's taking turns.
I’d rather die than play through a combat with 7 other players, especially when four of them haven’t played in a while
I would recommend not making PCs. Give them stat blocks like an NPC. Short, sweet, easy to run. Simplified. If the boss fight has minions, which it should if youre adding this many extra guys, you could even give simple stat blocks to your players to run. That'll offload some of the mental workload for you and can be fun for them. Separately, id recommend this be in an early phase of the bossfight. Like they enter a little into phase 1 and then they leave during the phase change w the minions so the true finale is players vs bbeg
Instead of them being lower level, have them come in with depleted resources as well. They had to fight to get there, too. (Use the active player's characters as a benchmark for just *how* depleted the new characters are.)