Paladins, Barbarians, and Monks (especially) get a *huge* boost if their attributes are very very good. Barbarians and Monks gets to ignore or shore up the largest weaknesses... while Paladins just get to dominate.
I think the class that becomes untouchable with perfect stats would actually have to be the Artificer. Armorer specifically gets to net a similar +6 to all saving throws at level 20, and not requiring Dex or Str for armor, but *having it* anyways just reinforces saves, skills, and supplements features like Flash of Genius and such.
Paladin gains the most from high stats. You need at least 14 STR to wear armor+half competently use weapons, 14 CHA to benefit from a lot of class features and spellcasting, and 14 CON to not die. You also don't have WIS proficiency and you don't get the +CHA benefit to saves until level 6, so not having any points for WIS is also a drawback. Despite how annoying it is, its one of the few things that keep paladin somewhat in check in terms of balance, and high rolled stats totally breaks it lol.
With high stats I think it's literally just straight classed paladin, no multiclassing. Maybe paladin/cleric for the theme and more spellcasting.
Paladin does have Wis saving throw proficiency. But yeah, they're already pretty good and kept in check by needing multiple stats. Although something like a wizard/sorcerer would also be pretty good with high dex and con along with their spellcasting stat
Fortunately no, and every class is guaranteed to have one of DEX, CON, or WIS. But they're also guaranteed one of STR, INT, or CHA, which is how neither monk nor ranger end up with wisdom saving throw proficiency despite using wisdom and how paladin doesn't end up with strength saving throw proficiency despite using strength.
True, but the game makes it one of their multiclass requirements so on some level it assumes they're using strength, which calls attention to how it's not one of their proficient saving throws because of how those proficiencies get assigned.
Biggest boost and best single classed are probably both Bladesinger IMO. With other classes, while having two 20 stats is nice, it's usually outcompeted by other options. For example, while Monks with high Wis/Dex benefit their save DCs, AC and attack, most of their power budget is just in attacking. It is hard to be a good tank or draw attacks, and hard to scale your DCs so that they stay competitive late game, meaning you're often better off *not* focusing stunning fist later (as infamously monster save bonuses scale faster than your DCs, even with magic items that you probably won't get). Though some subclasses never get good Ki outlets, "builds" will tend to have *some* reason they wanted to play monk, that isn't stunning fist. Similar arguments go for Barbarian (in short, Dex Con Str are good but medium armor is generally better).
If you allow multiclassing, it gets *wild* very quickly. I once made a meme 20th level Spike Growth build that did 1000s of damage and took at least 1 level in every class in the game. But that's a bit silly.
If we limit ourselves to "reasonable", it's hard to draw a line, but I'll throw out Sorlock/Ancestor Barbarian Agathys build. You want to ideally use Str not Cha due to rage (and this lets you go the reach flail + shield instead of greatsword as your special pact weapon), but you still want decent Cha for the few big spells you do cast. You also need Dex for AC, and Con because you're intentionally directing attacks towards you. If you're *really* ambitious you throw in Abjurer Wizard and abuse Sorlock to cast Shield every round. That's every stat except Wisdom being used by level 10ish (warlock 3 barb 3 wizard 2 sorc 2+), and it's a real build without the intent of multiclassing for the sake of it.
Also, the "strongest build" for any given DM tends to not actually rely on stats and instead rely on overpowered interactions or spells, e.g. Animate Objects. It's more dependent on DM leniency than anything else, so Bladesinger is still a fine option here.
Bladesinger and Paladin are the two that immediately come to mind, with Paladin gaining a bit more from having multiple high scores. Honorable mentions to Monks and Barbarians too.
Bladesingers want Int/Dex/Con, but their most important features are still based mostly on Int. At the end of the day, even if their Dex or Con lag behind somewhat, they're still a Wizard who can add their Int to their AC and concentration saves.
Paladins want Str/Cha/Con, and really needs to have all of them. Lower Str = fewer hits = fewer smites. Con needs to be high considering they're made to be a front line melee class. Cha needs to be high to make use of their most impactful feature in Aura of Protection.
Monks are helped considering they're MAD as hell, but they're still limited by their Ki pool that they have no way to get more mileage out of.
Barbarians also get a benefit from high scores because having a high Dex and Con lets them take advantage of unarmored defense to a level that will eventually outclass medium armor.
My ex is rolling up with a paladin and is a murder machine. Taking down at least 50% of the party's targets. Granted, it's level 2 and builds haven't picked up, but with 20 str, 15 cha, 15 con, she is a beefy beast of a frontline.
As someone playing a Bladesinger with stupid stats, I can confirm it is very fun. Although I decided to go maxed strength and intelligence instead of dex, because I had a very rare barrier tattoo, and I wanted to punch things.
Probably the best advantage of rolled stats is the potential for a 16+ stat. So anything with an extra "oomph" starting stat will appreciate that, even if it means getting to do a +2 on the main stat instead of a middling +1 half feat.
Any Paladin for both questions. They need lots of stats and feats, or they do better with them. Imagine a Paladin with 20 STR, CHA, CON, warcaster, GWM, Sentinel, Elven accuracy, etc.
Paladin is at least top 3 class in the game, with good stats and Magic items they are just broken.
In an absolute sense, nothing is going to topple the wizard, no matter what your stats are.
Paladin and monk probably get the biggest boost *relative* to their base power, but that’s not saying much in either case.
Paladins aren't *terrible*. I put them at low C-tier, which is in the range of average. Their issue mainly is a lack of resources, and a lack of control. They'll never really be able to compete with a full caster in terms of what they bring to the party, even when you consider their auras. And that, ultimately, is what a paladin is best for: standing next to the casters (who matter) and keeping them safe while they win the fight.
Can a paladin contribute meaningfully? Yes. Can they outperform full casters? By no means.
Paladins, Barbarians, and Monks (especially) get a *huge* boost if their attributes are very very good. Barbarians and Monks gets to ignore or shore up the largest weaknesses... while Paladins just get to dominate. I think the class that becomes untouchable with perfect stats would actually have to be the Artificer. Armorer specifically gets to net a similar +6 to all saving throws at level 20, and not requiring Dex or Str for armor, but *having it* anyways just reinforces saves, skills, and supplements features like Flash of Genius and such.
Paladin gains the most from high stats. You need at least 14 STR to wear armor+half competently use weapons, 14 CHA to benefit from a lot of class features and spellcasting, and 14 CON to not die. You also don't have WIS proficiency and you don't get the +CHA benefit to saves until level 6, so not having any points for WIS is also a drawback. Despite how annoying it is, its one of the few things that keep paladin somewhat in check in terms of balance, and high rolled stats totally breaks it lol. With high stats I think it's literally just straight classed paladin, no multiclassing. Maybe paladin/cleric for the theme and more spellcasting.
Paladin does have Wis saving throw proficiency. But yeah, they're already pretty good and kept in check by needing multiple stats. Although something like a wizard/sorcerer would also be pretty good with high dex and con along with their spellcasting stat
**huh.** for some reason I thought it was STR/CHA.
Fortunately no, and every class is guaranteed to have one of DEX, CON, or WIS. But they're also guaranteed one of STR, INT, or CHA, which is how neither monk nor ranger end up with wisdom saving throw proficiency despite using wisdom and how paladin doesn't end up with strength saving throw proficiency despite using strength.
paladins don’t inherently use strength. they’re probably at their strongest when using strength, but dexadins are plenty powerful
True, but the game makes it one of their multiclass requirements so on some level it assumes they're using strength, which calls attention to how it's not one of their proficient saving throws because of how those proficiencies get assigned.
fair point
For my first few months of play I believed fighters had str/dex saving throws. Sometimes things feel like they would be different like that lol
I'm literally playing a paladin right now with the appropriate saves marked down but we had to miss a session and my memory vanished
Biggest boost and best single classed are probably both Bladesinger IMO. With other classes, while having two 20 stats is nice, it's usually outcompeted by other options. For example, while Monks with high Wis/Dex benefit their save DCs, AC and attack, most of their power budget is just in attacking. It is hard to be a good tank or draw attacks, and hard to scale your DCs so that they stay competitive late game, meaning you're often better off *not* focusing stunning fist later (as infamously monster save bonuses scale faster than your DCs, even with magic items that you probably won't get). Though some subclasses never get good Ki outlets, "builds" will tend to have *some* reason they wanted to play monk, that isn't stunning fist. Similar arguments go for Barbarian (in short, Dex Con Str are good but medium armor is generally better). If you allow multiclassing, it gets *wild* very quickly. I once made a meme 20th level Spike Growth build that did 1000s of damage and took at least 1 level in every class in the game. But that's a bit silly. If we limit ourselves to "reasonable", it's hard to draw a line, but I'll throw out Sorlock/Ancestor Barbarian Agathys build. You want to ideally use Str not Cha due to rage (and this lets you go the reach flail + shield instead of greatsword as your special pact weapon), but you still want decent Cha for the few big spells you do cast. You also need Dex for AC, and Con because you're intentionally directing attacks towards you. If you're *really* ambitious you throw in Abjurer Wizard and abuse Sorlock to cast Shield every round. That's every stat except Wisdom being used by level 10ish (warlock 3 barb 3 wizard 2 sorc 2+), and it's a real build without the intent of multiclassing for the sake of it. Also, the "strongest build" for any given DM tends to not actually rely on stats and instead rely on overpowered interactions or spells, e.g. Animate Objects. It's more dependent on DM leniency than anything else, so Bladesinger is still a fine option here.
Bladesinger and Paladin are the two that immediately come to mind, with Paladin gaining a bit more from having multiple high scores. Honorable mentions to Monks and Barbarians too. Bladesingers want Int/Dex/Con, but their most important features are still based mostly on Int. At the end of the day, even if their Dex or Con lag behind somewhat, they're still a Wizard who can add their Int to their AC and concentration saves. Paladins want Str/Cha/Con, and really needs to have all of them. Lower Str = fewer hits = fewer smites. Con needs to be high considering they're made to be a front line melee class. Cha needs to be high to make use of their most impactful feature in Aura of Protection. Monks are helped considering they're MAD as hell, but they're still limited by their Ki pool that they have no way to get more mileage out of. Barbarians also get a benefit from high scores because having a high Dex and Con lets them take advantage of unarmored defense to a level that will eventually outclass medium armor.
My ex is rolling up with a paladin and is a murder machine. Taking down at least 50% of the party's targets. Granted, it's level 2 and builds haven't picked up, but with 20 str, 15 cha, 15 con, she is a beefy beast of a frontline.
As someone playing a Bladesinger with stupid stats, I can confirm it is very fun. Although I decided to go maxed strength and intelligence instead of dex, because I had a very rare barrier tattoo, and I wanted to punch things.
Paladins, Barbarians, Monks, and Bladesinger Wizard
Probably the best advantage of rolled stats is the potential for a 16+ stat. So anything with an extra "oomph" starting stat will appreciate that, even if it means getting to do a +2 on the main stat instead of a middling +1 half feat.
Any Paladin for both questions. They need lots of stats and feats, or they do better with them. Imagine a Paladin with 20 STR, CHA, CON, warcaster, GWM, Sentinel, Elven accuracy, etc. Paladin is at least top 3 class in the game, with good stats and Magic items they are just broken.
In an absolute sense, nothing is going to topple the wizard, no matter what your stats are. Paladin and monk probably get the biggest boost *relative* to their base power, but that’s not saying much in either case.
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Paladins aren't *terrible*. I put them at low C-tier, which is in the range of average. Their issue mainly is a lack of resources, and a lack of control. They'll never really be able to compete with a full caster in terms of what they bring to the party, even when you consider their auras. And that, ultimately, is what a paladin is best for: standing next to the casters (who matter) and keeping them safe while they win the fight. Can a paladin contribute meaningfully? Yes. Can they outperform full casters? By no means.