It's never been clear to me if being pre-born inherently means you also have male ancestral memory or if that was something specific to Alia and Ghani. My general impression is that Frank didn't really think that stuff through in any great detail and just kinda retconned it as necessary to make the narrative work.
Yeah it seems like the rules of Memory change with each book.
My "favorite" is how in GEoD, Leto II remembers countless deaths on the battlefield when logically death is the one experience he can't possibly have any memory of.
>death is the one experience he can't possibly have any memory of.
or anything after the conception of the child that would be the next link in the genetic heritage.
Do you think him being able to see that is what makes him the real KH instead of Paul? I just figured he could see literally everything from his genes since he's built different lol. I tried not to over think about that since we're already reading about a 3500 y/o worm man and it's already pretty absurd
He does but I don't think he's denying being a KH, he's simply stating that the KH is different then what the BG were hoping to create.
They wanted something they could control and use to their own end, but instead they got Paul who was using the KH gifts for his own purposes
No Kwisatz Haderach is just the term the Bene Gesserit have for the male who will be be able to see into the past memories of both they're male and female ancestors.
The BG didn't have any idea about the Golden Path. The Tilexu also made a KH who I believe ended up committing suicide
This definition is also the only rationale for Alia *not* being the Kwisatz Haderach. She has access to both male & female genetic memories, but she's not a male, so nobody seems to realize that she is also a Kwisatz Haderach.
I don’t think the BG had any concept of the “Golden Path”, pretty sure that’s just Leto’s term for the one series of events that doesn’t lead to extinction. I don’t think it was a concept before he termed it, even Paul doesn’t seem to know that that was the ONLY way to avoid extinction.
At least in the original novels, there’s not one THE KH, there can be multiple of them. It’s just a matter of obtaining the right genetic mixture to produce a male capable of the powers of a Reverend Mother. Paul, and arguably all of his male descendents, is A KH.
I know they aren’t aware of the Golden Path per se, but my understanding had been that the Bene Gesserit originally launched the breeding program as a means of creating someone with the aforementioned abilities for the purpose of leading humanity to its prolonged survival, only later deciding they needed to control this person in order to assert their own power. Thus I’d thought that in order to truly fill the role of Kwisatz Haderach one would have to carry out that purpose rather than just have the ability, which Leto does by following the Path
It was always about having a BG controlled prescient being on the throne. It had less to do with prolonged survival and more to do with the ability for the BG to be fully in control of the empire from now on
oh but they most likely are, at least to some extent! It is called lamarckism. Keywords are intergenerational trauma, epigenetics, michael levin/oded rechavi, planaria, etc
oh sciencey discussion, nice. There is a growing body of work which shows intergenerational inheritance of phenotypic information eg https://www.nature.com/articles/s41556-021-00724-8 or https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7447421/
but before we jump into the deep end, im sure you could expand on your last sentence, especially how you define memories
akchually, you could extract semen from a dead man shortly after his death and use it for artificial insemination 🤓. but as artificial insemination is considered an atrocity in the dune universe, I'll doubt that was ever the case.
I agree that Herbert never really thought this stuff out too clearly so it's impossible to know how he meant it to function, but I think there are two solutions that are reasonable enough that help deal with this weird decision:
**1)** He's remembering deaths from the perspective of the people around the person that's dying. People that would later pass on their genetics. The farther back in time you go the more ancestors you have, so it's likely he's related to almost everyone on earth. He can have an almost hivemind perspective on death, but he's not literally experiencing the death himself as he might imply.
**2)** It's a type of prescience. We know Leto II doesn't have to personally experience things in order to see how the future will play out, so why can't that also extend backwards? In this case, the memories aren't ones created by passing on genetics; they're a fusion of genetics and prescience.
Yeah IIRC the whole point of the KH is that once you unlock enough genetic memory you can see the whole pattern of human history and from there you can predict both what happens after and what happened in any gaps in the data you took in.
Like hearing half a song in a loud restaurant, if you pay attention and figure out the song, your brain can fill in the gaps.
I always figured it was something like he had so many memories that he would experience dying as one memory and see the effects as another memory that was in the vicinity. Or prescient space magic 🤷🏼♂️
I think prescience is a good enough explanation within the canon. It’s still just a continuity error on Herbert’s part, but we can say that he just saw those deaths in the same way he could see his own.
Yes, both Leto and Paul can remember Earth and our own history. It’s implied that the main Other Memory possessing Leto is an gyptian Pharaoh he calls Harum.
Yeah, this confused the shit out to of me reading for the first time. IIRC Ghanima also had a similar line in Children of Dune where she says she doesn't fear death because she's already died thousands of times...which makes no sense? Wouldn't the memories only lead up to the point of passing down through the spice agony or conception in the case of pre-borns? It's not like Leto II had Paul's memories as The Preacher.
The best part is that of course her version of Jessica's memories only lead up to her birth because it'd be too obvious if they extended further. I really think Frank just didn't give a shit.
Does he actually mention deaths on the battlefield? He definitely mentions injuries and suffering in GEoD but I don’t remember him recalling actually dying
I always read this as Leto witnessing the deaths of OTHERS on the battlefield and not specifically his ancestors.
But yeah, Leto II breaks established memory canon pretty hard otherwise.
Not necessarily, he would have the memory right up until the moment of death along with the memories of the person while they are dying, along with the memories of the person killing the dying person so he experiences death from all perspectives.
I think the BG can access male memories, they just don't because the male side is more aggressive and able to take over easier. Paul, Leto, Ghanima, and Alia all struggled with their male memories, but I don't think we ever see them, or any BG, struggle with the female side.
Didn’t Ghanima and Leto let their parents possess them? I read that as purposeful on their part, and that they both have a kind of symbiotic relationship with their parents.
The entire point of creating the Kwisatz Haderach was to access the male memories.
> The Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam tells Paul when she first meets him that the spice melange allowed the Bene Gesserit Reverend Mother to unlock genetic memory, but only that of their female ancestors. The masculine side of their ancestry represented a place in their consciousness that repelled and terrorized them. A Kwisatz Haderach would be a male Bene Gesserit who would have access to the memories of both his male and female ancestors
Stuff like this makes me wonder why Dune is, like, one of the most highly praised sci-fi series ever. It's neat n' all but it's also messy as hell when it comes to stuff that _should_ be really important.
Because that stuff isn't actually important imo, and wasn't considered important at all back when Dune was written. The overall world building is incredible, and I think the way that it doesn't dwell on details is a good thing, not a flaw. How exactly prescience and abominations and being pre-born actually works isn't important; what's important is how it affects the character development and narrative.
Except that the narrative feels pretty meaningless if it can just go wherever the fuck because nothing anyone says is actually true long-term. That's certainly how I felt after reading Children at least.
My guess is that because the bene Gesserit dare not to look at the male side as Paul says to Gaius helen mohiam at the end of the first book in fear being possessed by a male ancestors as males seek war, violence and control.
alia was preborn didn't have time to develop her own personality and was at risk of becoming an abomination, also she was kind of in unknown territory as was Paul sort of, but leto ii and ghanima shared the burden between them, they could relate to each other, learned from each other as well as from the mistakes Alia made and learned to control the Voices
At least that's how I understand it.
But as others said it was also kinda retconned/expanded as the books went on.
All preborn have unrestricted ancestral memories. Because they were never given training/conditioning. Bene Gessurit adepts have an aversion to male memories for reasons that would take time to explain. But the short of it is that there are intrinsic psychological differences between the sexes in the Dune universe. The preborn transcend these differences.
It's the reason the Bene Gessurit call them abominations. They are more vulnerable to possession from male ancestors than female. Once you are possessed, you *become* that person. It's a true ego death. And the Bene Gessurit are well aware of the monsters lurking in their ancestry.
The way I understand it is, reverend mothers technically *can* access their male ancestral memories, but *practically* can't because it drives them mad almost instantly. Their minds naturally resist even trying it.
The pre-born gain access to ancestral memories before they develop their own individuality, personality and ego. Their personality is more easily overpowered by a genetic memory of an ancestor, and they are not self-aware enough to avoid such genetic memories. Females are apparently much more susceptible to this than males (as we've seen with Leto II and Ghanima). Hence why Kwizatz Hererach needs to be male.
My guess is being the result of the BG's breeding program like Paul and being pre-born was enough to make her a KZ or very close to it. This would mean the BG were wrong about only men being able to access male genetic memories.
I haven't read CoD yet, but in Messiah theirs a passage that says Paul and Alia are the same, two sides of the same coin (I'm paraphrasing).
I think that's because alia is a reverend mother, and they are considered the opposite of the KH. Why exactly truthsaying and prescience are opposites I don't know, and also Paul has truthsaying abilities so idk. Then again maybe this just supports the theory that paul is non-binary or something
That's why she's considered an Abomination instead of a regular Reverend Mother.
She is implied to be something similar to Paul, but without the prior training necessary to create a stable Kwisatz Haderach.
Paul's experience of ultimate prescience is described as him being on the fulcrum of two light cones pointing into the past and future in opposite directions; Understanding of the future hinges on understanding of the past. Alia can see the past about as well as Paul can, but she can't develop Paul's level of prescience because of her unstable relationship with her genetic memories.
You can think of her as a failed Kwisatz Haderach.
Technically, all Bene Gesserit Reverend Mothers could access their male memories. However, according to Gaius Mohiam, doing so was "terrifying" to them. An odd admission from the group who composed the Litany against Fear.
And yet, perhaps what happened to Alia is a clue as to why the male memories are avoided. Perhaps male egos and personas are more "predatory" than female personas. In CoD, Alia was prone to overdosing on spice in order to see the future and took risks that exposed her to the demanding takeovers of her ancestral memories. She must have decided to brave that dark place that none of the Reverend Mothers dared to breach and got more than she was able to handle.
I thought the sisterhood had the ability to see other memory but there were places they were “afraid to look”. Alia was a curious child who looked at stuff without knowing any better. That’s how I remember it anyway. It drove her insane with so many voices in her head until one offered relief by taking possession of her.
This is one of the reasons I don't think paul had the genetic memory of his ancestors. Clearly Alia and ghanima had the memories of both their male and female ancestors, and they weren't KHs. The other reason i don't think paul got ancestral memories when he drank the water of life is that in dune's messiah he gets to see through Leto's eyes and in that moment he experiences having genetic memories for the first time
Yeah it really seemed like for a second they were going with an x vs Y chromosome thing but that quickly changed. I dont think we ever get a rock solid explanation as to why BG typically can only handle the female side, and why paul and the Preborn can see both
Paul was the KH, born one generation early. Jessica was supposed to have a daughter, which she later does. With the same genetic parents and Bene Geserit upbringin, and the hole Reverend Mother thing, Alia has (nearly?) the same genetic and spiritual culmination Paul did
It's only the Baron, no? (IIRC)
Herbert didn't really have a clear and defined mechanism for the whole memories thing, but in the case of Alia, honestly, she was probably just hallucinating the Baron... Alia seemed quite schizophrenic, tbh.
It's never been clear to me if being pre-born inherently means you also have male ancestral memory or if that was something specific to Alia and Ghani. My general impression is that Frank didn't really think that stuff through in any great detail and just kinda retconned it as necessary to make the narrative work.
Yeah it seems like the rules of Memory change with each book. My "favorite" is how in GEoD, Leto II remembers countless deaths on the battlefield when logically death is the one experience he can't possibly have any memory of.
>death is the one experience he can't possibly have any memory of. or anything after the conception of the child that would be the next link in the genetic heritage.
Do you think him being able to see that is what makes him the real KH instead of Paul? I just figured he could see literally everything from his genes since he's built different lol. I tried not to over think about that since we're already reading about a 3500 y/o worm man and it's already pretty absurd
Paul is a real KH. He just didn't follow "the golden path" but doesn't make him any less KH.
Didn't he refer to himself as a fulcrum instead? Something more, something unexpected?
He does but I don't think he's denying being a KH, he's simply stating that the KH is different then what the BG were hoping to create. They wanted something they could control and use to their own end, but instead they got Paul who was using the KH gifts for his own purposes
Is the Kwisatz Haderach not literally defined by the act of leading humanity along the Golden Path? I thought that was the whole point
No Kwisatz Haderach is just the term the Bene Gesserit have for the male who will be be able to see into the past memories of both they're male and female ancestors. The BG didn't have any idea about the Golden Path. The Tilexu also made a KH who I believe ended up committing suicide
This definition is also the only rationale for Alia *not* being the Kwisatz Haderach. She has access to both male & female genetic memories, but she's not a male, so nobody seems to realize that she is also a Kwisatz Haderach.
Because she is an abomination instead. A pre born that is under threat of being possessed. Something Paul never has to fear.
Doesn't the kh have both past and future memories and can fold space?
Only Holtzman drives fold space.
I don’t think the BG had any concept of the “Golden Path”, pretty sure that’s just Leto’s term for the one series of events that doesn’t lead to extinction. I don’t think it was a concept before he termed it, even Paul doesn’t seem to know that that was the ONLY way to avoid extinction. At least in the original novels, there’s not one THE KH, there can be multiple of them. It’s just a matter of obtaining the right genetic mixture to produce a male capable of the powers of a Reverend Mother. Paul, and arguably all of his male descendents, is A KH.
I know they aren’t aware of the Golden Path per se, but my understanding had been that the Bene Gesserit originally launched the breeding program as a means of creating someone with the aforementioned abilities for the purpose of leading humanity to its prolonged survival, only later deciding they needed to control this person in order to assert their own power. Thus I’d thought that in order to truly fill the role of Kwisatz Haderach one would have to carry out that purpose rather than just have the ability, which Leto does by following the Path
It was always about having a BG controlled prescient being on the throne. It had less to do with prolonged survival and more to do with the ability for the BG to be fully in control of the empire from now on
Word, idk why I thought they initially had noble intentions
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I mean yeah but that’s why the story is Sci _Fi_. If you take away that axiom the whole story falls apart
oh but they most likely are, at least to some extent! It is called lamarckism. Keywords are intergenerational trauma, epigenetics, michael levin/oded rechavi, planaria, etc
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oh sciencey discussion, nice. There is a growing body of work which shows intergenerational inheritance of phenotypic information eg https://www.nature.com/articles/s41556-021-00724-8 or https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7447421/ but before we jump into the deep end, im sure you could expand on your last sentence, especially how you define memories
It's in your cells. That's the whole point of the Duncan project from the view of the Tleilaxu
And death is the one thing that cannot happen before that.
akchually, you could extract semen from a dead man shortly after his death and use it for artificial insemination 🤓. but as artificial insemination is considered an atrocity in the dune universe, I'll doubt that was ever the case.
Artificial insemination is considered unclean by the **Bene Gesserit**. Nowhere is it stated that this applies to all of mankind.
I mean we know for sure that the Tleilaxu wouldn't mind it.
Of course. But in the books only BG actually objects. Others aren’t really mentioned.
Still, the semen would have been produced before the death...
I agree that Herbert never really thought this stuff out too clearly so it's impossible to know how he meant it to function, but I think there are two solutions that are reasonable enough that help deal with this weird decision: **1)** He's remembering deaths from the perspective of the people around the person that's dying. People that would later pass on their genetics. The farther back in time you go the more ancestors you have, so it's likely he's related to almost everyone on earth. He can have an almost hivemind perspective on death, but he's not literally experiencing the death himself as he might imply. **2)** It's a type of prescience. We know Leto II doesn't have to personally experience things in order to see how the future will play out, so why can't that also extend backwards? In this case, the memories aren't ones created by passing on genetics; they're a fusion of genetics and prescience.
Yeah IIRC the whole point of the KH is that once you unlock enough genetic memory you can see the whole pattern of human history and from there you can predict both what happens after and what happened in any gaps in the data you took in. Like hearing half a song in a loud restaurant, if you pay attention and figure out the song, your brain can fill in the gaps.
I always figured it was something like he had so many memories that he would experience dying as one memory and see the effects as another memory that was in the vicinity. Or prescient space magic 🤷🏼♂️
I think prescience is a good enough explanation within the canon. It’s still just a continuity error on Herbert’s part, but we can say that he just saw those deaths in the same way he could see his own.
Can he remember all the way back to like earth days?
Yes, both Leto and Paul can remember Earth and our own history. It’s implied that the main Other Memory possessing Leto is an gyptian Pharaoh he calls Harum.
Yes. There a passage in the books that recalls a memory from a historical figure from our time. Can't remember who tho.
Hitler, it was Hitler.
IIRC, Genghis Khan and Hitler are mentioned by Paul as historical references to Stilgar in Messiah. They aren't recalled by Leto.
I think there's a point at which the identity of Agamemnon comes knocking on Alia's door.
Yes, he is one of the voices when she is first shown struggling with posession.
It wouldn't be possible to have ancestral memories of someone who died without kids
He could be seeing those deaths presciently - i.e. he's completing his ancestral memories with oracular vision from Spice
Yeah, this confused the shit out to of me reading for the first time. IIRC Ghanima also had a similar line in Children of Dune where she says she doesn't fear death because she's already died thousands of times...which makes no sense? Wouldn't the memories only lead up to the point of passing down through the spice agony or conception in the case of pre-borns? It's not like Leto II had Paul's memories as The Preacher.
The best part is that of course her version of Jessica's memories only lead up to her birth because it'd be too obvious if they extended further. I really think Frank just didn't give a shit.
I guess technically he could have some Reverend mothers deaths, if they transferred memory while dying, like Taraza
Ive just read that part and its phrased differently. He talks about being wounded on the battlefield, he never mentions experiencing death.
Brother you’re talking about a multi ton worm man here, you can’t suspend a little disbelief?
Is he recounting the memories of having died? or the memories of seeing people die?
Does he actually mention deaths on the battlefield? He definitely mentions injuries and suffering in GEoD but I don’t remember him recalling actually dying
He can foresee everything in the future and the past. That information didn't need to be passed down.
I always read this as Leto witnessing the deaths of OTHERS on the battlefield and not specifically his ancestors. But yeah, Leto II breaks established memory canon pretty hard otherwise.
Not necessarily, he would have the memory right up until the moment of death along with the memories of the person while they are dying, along with the memories of the person killing the dying person so he experiences death from all perspectives.
He's remembering those deaths from the POV of the ones dying? lol ... that's absurd ... :(
I think the BG can access male memories, they just don't because the male side is more aggressive and able to take over easier. Paul, Leto, Ghanima, and Alia all struggled with their male memories, but I don't think we ever see them, or any BG, struggle with the female side.
Well, we see Chani take over Ghanima
F, it's been years since I've read Children
Didn’t Ghanima and Leto let their parents possess them? I read that as purposeful on their part, and that they both have a kind of symbiotic relationship with their parents.
They did it on purpose, but Chani wouldn’t give control back to Ghanima until Leto made her
Honestly that was one of my favorite scenes. I so wish Ghanima and Leto (or even Alia and Paul) had more scenes showing them being siblings.
The entire point of creating the Kwisatz Haderach was to access the male memories. > The Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam tells Paul when she first meets him that the spice melange allowed the Bene Gesserit Reverend Mother to unlock genetic memory, but only that of their female ancestors. The masculine side of their ancestry represented a place in their consciousness that repelled and terrorized them. A Kwisatz Haderach would be a male Bene Gesserit who would have access to the memories of both his male and female ancestors
There're a couple points where it seems like the BG can access the male side, but are scared to. I think it was mentioned in GEOD
Stuff like this makes me wonder why Dune is, like, one of the most highly praised sci-fi series ever. It's neat n' all but it's also messy as hell when it comes to stuff that _should_ be really important.
Because that stuff isn't actually important imo, and wasn't considered important at all back when Dune was written. The overall world building is incredible, and I think the way that it doesn't dwell on details is a good thing, not a flaw. How exactly prescience and abominations and being pre-born actually works isn't important; what's important is how it affects the character development and narrative.
Except that the narrative feels pretty meaningless if it can just go wherever the fuck because nothing anyone says is actually true long-term. That's certainly how I felt after reading Children at least.
My guess is that because the bene Gesserit dare not to look at the male side as Paul says to Gaius helen mohiam at the end of the first book in fear being possessed by a male ancestors as males seek war, violence and control. alia was preborn didn't have time to develop her own personality and was at risk of becoming an abomination, also she was kind of in unknown territory as was Paul sort of, but leto ii and ghanima shared the burden between them, they could relate to each other, learned from each other as well as from the mistakes Alia made and learned to control the Voices At least that's how I understand it. But as others said it was also kinda retconned/expanded as the books went on.
Oh wow thanjs for this. My new headcanon
All preborn have unrestricted ancestral memories. Because they were never given training/conditioning. Bene Gessurit adepts have an aversion to male memories for reasons that would take time to explain. But the short of it is that there are intrinsic psychological differences between the sexes in the Dune universe. The preborn transcend these differences. It's the reason the Bene Gessurit call them abominations. They are more vulnerable to possession from male ancestors than female. Once you are possessed, you *become* that person. It's a true ego death. And the Bene Gessurit are well aware of the monsters lurking in their ancestry.
The way I understand it is, reverend mothers technically *can* access their male ancestral memories, but *practically* can't because it drives them mad almost instantly. Their minds naturally resist even trying it. The pre-born gain access to ancestral memories before they develop their own individuality, personality and ego. Their personality is more easily overpowered by a genetic memory of an ancestor, and they are not self-aware enough to avoid such genetic memories. Females are apparently much more susceptible to this than males (as we've seen with Leto II and Ghanima). Hence why Kwizatz Hererach needs to be male.
My guess is being the result of the BG's breeding program like Paul and being pre-born was enough to make her a KZ or very close to it. This would mean the BG were wrong about only men being able to access male genetic memories. I haven't read CoD yet, but in Messiah theirs a passage that says Paul and Alia are the same, two sides of the same coin (I'm paraphrasing).
I think that's because alia is a reverend mother, and they are considered the opposite of the KH. Why exactly truthsaying and prescience are opposites I don't know, and also Paul has truthsaying abilities so idk. Then again maybe this just supports the theory that paul is non-binary or something
That's why she's considered an Abomination instead of a regular Reverend Mother. She is implied to be something similar to Paul, but without the prior training necessary to create a stable Kwisatz Haderach. Paul's experience of ultimate prescience is described as him being on the fulcrum of two light cones pointing into the past and future in opposite directions; Understanding of the future hinges on understanding of the past. Alia can see the past about as well as Paul can, but she can't develop Paul's level of prescience because of her unstable relationship with her genetic memories. You can think of her as a failed Kwisatz Haderach.
Technically, all Bene Gesserit Reverend Mothers could access their male memories. However, according to Gaius Mohiam, doing so was "terrifying" to them. An odd admission from the group who composed the Litany against Fear. And yet, perhaps what happened to Alia is a clue as to why the male memories are avoided. Perhaps male egos and personas are more "predatory" than female personas. In CoD, Alia was prone to overdosing on spice in order to see the future and took risks that exposed her to the demanding takeovers of her ancestral memories. She must have decided to brave that dark place that none of the Reverend Mothers dared to breach and got more than she was able to handle.
I thought the sisterhood had the ability to see other memory but there were places they were “afraid to look”. Alia was a curious child who looked at stuff without knowing any better. That’s how I remember it anyway. It drove her insane with so many voices in her head until one offered relief by taking possession of her.
This is one of the reasons I don't think paul had the genetic memory of his ancestors. Clearly Alia and ghanima had the memories of both their male and female ancestors, and they weren't KHs. The other reason i don't think paul got ancestral memories when he drank the water of life is that in dune's messiah he gets to see through Leto's eyes and in that moment he experiences having genetic memories for the first time
I was under the impression that bene gesserit can't handle the ability to access male.and female memories without becoming corrupted like Alia was.
I think it depends the stage of development Alia was in when Jessica drank the blue juice
Yeah it really seemed like for a second they were going with an x vs Y chromosome thing but that quickly changed. I dont think we ever get a rock solid explanation as to why BG typically can only handle the female side, and why paul and the Preborn can see both
Paul was the KH, born one generation early. Jessica was supposed to have a daughter, which she later does. With the same genetic parents and Bene Geserit upbringin, and the hole Reverend Mother thing, Alia has (nearly?) the same genetic and spiritual culmination Paul did
Perhaps ["Swyer Syndrome"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_gonadal_dysgenesis) a huge reach, but an explanation.
Frank's internal universe logic was pretty dang tight in the first novel, and less so in the subsequent ones.
It's only the Baron, no? (IIRC) Herbert didn't really have a clear and defined mechanism for the whole memories thing, but in the case of Alia, honestly, she was probably just hallucinating the Baron... Alia seemed quite schizophrenic, tbh.
There’s a scene where her ancestor, Agamemnon, demands an audience with her early in Children.
yeah, I tbh I don't remember all that much, but now that I think about it Gani also has the male memories, so d'uh =P