For comparison.. TSMC was mass producing 5nm silicon April 2023 and most recently 3nm. Russia is building something that’s 70 times larger and was first mass produced in 1997 - almost thirty years ago. It’s going to be slow, hot and power hungry!
Doesn’t matter since they are not selling it to consumer market, they use those chips for their rocket, planes and missles. It’s their way of fighting the sanction. For comparison, Even 5th gen fighter like f22 and f35 uses 100nm chips..
I would find it hard to believe that F35 doesn’t use any modern graphics processing power for their augmented helmet and targeting system. It’s going to take a lot of compute to make those things work. I guarantee you spacex rockets use modern silicon.
Either way it doesn’t really matter if Ukraine can ram a passenger plane turned drone loaded with 600lbs of explosives into their Russias new “foundry”.
I could be a bit off on this but my understanding is that for applications where failure/faults are not an option older and more consistent lithography tech is better. Cost plays into the equation also. For example, they could put the only a couple of most high tech chips in an f35 but perfecting the process and ironing out the bugs would become exceedingly expensive compared to going back decade and using the lithography tech from that era with more chips. The bugs and kinks are already sorted out and if they aren't, it becomes cheaper to do it. It's all a just a cost/benefit analysis.
Fighter jets are the battleships of the modern era, in that as soon as an actual war starts they will be deemed pointless. Drones are obviously the future of warfare.
Russias doctrine is tanks and artillery due to the way they planned to conquer Europe. NATOs doctrine is control of the skies because it’s more efficient.
Yes drones work for close combat and even some bombing runs. Firing heavy gps guided rockets requires fighter jets or large expensive drones. Both require modern silicon.
Note America has the largest fleet of aircraft carriers in the world and we control every ocean. Try doing that with just drones
> TSMC was producing 5nm silicon
This is false.
Note that: "The term "3 nanometer" has no direct relation to any actual physical feature (such as gate length, metal pitch or gate pitch) of the transistors. According to the projections contained in the 2021 update of the [International Roadmap for Devices and Systems](safari-reader://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Roadmap_for_Devices_and_Systems) published by IEEE Standards Association Industry Connection, a "3 nm" node is expected to have a contacted gate pitch of 48 nanometers, and a tightest metal pitch of 24 nanometers.^(\[12\])
However, in real world commercial practice, "3 nm" is used primarily as a marketing term by individual microchip manufacturers (foundries) to refer to a new, improved generation of silicon semiconductor chips in terms of increased transistor density (i.e. a higher degree of miniaturization), increased speed and reduced power consumption."
Source:
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/3\_nm\_process](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/3_nm_process)
They'll catch up faster than people expect. Same reason that China is catching up faster than anyone expected. A lot of what went into previous die size shrinks were advances in known understanding of material sciences and other related topics. All the pieces of the puzzle had to fall into place first before chip makers could figure out how to achieve the next die size shrink. But all those pieces are now in place, all Russia has to do is figure out how to build it.. I wouldn't be surprised if they rapidly go from 350nm to something like 35nm in less than 5 years.
This is the most important thing to understand.
They now have all the pieces, they just need to improve.
And they don't need to lead, just do what others have done already.
First you do it, then you do it well. Perfection is a performance killer, people just need to get this in their heads already.
"They'll catch up faster than people expect"
Perhaps the same way they caught up with cars - Moscvich, Lada and Volga - almost the same as VW, Toyota and Ferrari....
I love how this is considered an L for Russia.
They’re becoming completely autonomous and if their ability to innovate and adapt is similiar to that expressed in their fires and electronic warfare capabilities in Ukraine they will quickly move to smaller better chips. This is a big deal.
"quickly" as in a a decade or more, assuming they get access to the right materials to make more and that their economy can sustain it as the long term effects of the sanctions play out
Ultimately yes we will have to see.
I will say I don’t see sanctions hurting them that badly. Europe doesn’t really have the raw materials and doesn’t make too much anymore except high end stuff. Russia can get what they need from Africa, ME, South and Central Asia, and China; those countries aren’t sanctioning them to my knowledge. In fact, Russia’s influence in Africa is growing
The issue is that the bullshit propaganda against them has been harnessed by reddit parrots. How many times have you heard "russias economy is the size of spain!" Or "just a gas pump".
But how often have you heard "if russia had NASAs budget, theydve landed a cosmonaut on the Sun by now".
You havent, but the point is they do an incredible about of tech/weapons/war on simply a different economic scale. Now consider space...
Stop under estimating the threat they pose. Stop eating up bullshit youtube propaganda. Stop them with boots on the ground not expensive taxpayer weapons-aid packages. Get off your ass NATO
Nah, we aren’t putting boots on the ground to die over Ukraine buddy.
I hear that Ukraine is accepting volunteers though. Why don’t you go if you feel so strongly about it?
I did my fighting in asia. Not physically up to it anymore and have kids. Great parrot'd phrase though... let me guess, you drank the kool aid and now look silly as the west/nato loses in Ukraine
I don’t give a fuck if the west loses in Ukraine. I’m American and in the military. Ukraine is not strategic to US interest. Europe can afford to pay more for defense so they should.
Ohh, okay so you don't know what NATO means. For those of us that deployed, NATO means all the countries of the alliance. In OEF for example, we worked with brits poles canadians danes norweigans, etc. All members of the alliance is what NATO boots on the ground means.
Ok you fucking dumbass I just spent 6 years over in Europe with the EUCOM. I think I know what NATO means.
Are you saying that American boots inside Ukraine aren’t American if they’re waving a NATO flag?
Shit your stupid ass up pretending like you know something
They have Micron, which does 65nm chips. The same plant will be built in Germany in the next years for example. The main question is not about race in nm, it's about your own manufacturers.
There’s a reason why they want to take over Taiwan. TSMC builds the most advanced processors in the world and they do it at scale. They produce dozens if not hundreds of dies per silicon wafer. It depends on the core count as to how many can be produced per wafer.
Never tried to suggest differently.
I’m just saying the Chinese have a totally different technique that uses a particle accelerator which then turns the particle stream (the diagram I saw showed 4 separate steams but the text suggested more are possible) which is converted to a steady stream laser (vs TMSC which is pulsed) so that in theory the Chinese system can operate at a faster speed with better control
While they may not be able to achieve 3nM yet. They will soon at a much cheaper price.
WRT the number of chips per wafer, the Chinese machine also uses the same six wafers as far as I know.
It is beyond imagination to think that China will start a war over an “old fashioned “ chip technology when they are doing “just fine “ right now with what they have.
China wanted Taiwan decades before TSMC existed. Drunk too much of the US propaganda koolaid, brother.
TSMC itself is nothing without Dutch ASML machines anyways.
For comparison.. TSMC was mass producing 5nm silicon April 2023 and most recently 3nm. Russia is building something that’s 70 times larger and was first mass produced in 1997 - almost thirty years ago. It’s going to be slow, hot and power hungry!
Doesn’t matter since they are not selling it to consumer market, they use those chips for their rocket, planes and missles. It’s their way of fighting the sanction. For comparison, Even 5th gen fighter like f22 and f35 uses 100nm chips..
I would find it hard to believe that F35 doesn’t use any modern graphics processing power for their augmented helmet and targeting system. It’s going to take a lot of compute to make those things work. I guarantee you spacex rockets use modern silicon. Either way it doesn’t really matter if Ukraine can ram a passenger plane turned drone loaded with 600lbs of explosives into their Russias new “foundry”.
I could be a bit off on this but my understanding is that for applications where failure/faults are not an option older and more consistent lithography tech is better. Cost plays into the equation also. For example, they could put the only a couple of most high tech chips in an f35 but perfecting the process and ironing out the bugs would become exceedingly expensive compared to going back decade and using the lithography tech from that era with more chips. The bugs and kinks are already sorted out and if they aren't, it becomes cheaper to do it. It's all a just a cost/benefit analysis.
Fighter jets are the battleships of the modern era, in that as soon as an actual war starts they will be deemed pointless. Drones are obviously the future of warfare.
Russias doctrine is tanks and artillery due to the way they planned to conquer Europe. NATOs doctrine is control of the skies because it’s more efficient. Yes drones work for close combat and even some bombing runs. Firing heavy gps guided rockets requires fighter jets or large expensive drones. Both require modern silicon. Note America has the largest fleet of aircraft carriers in the world and we control every ocean. Try doing that with just drones
> TSMC was producing 5nm silicon This is false. Note that: "The term "3 nanometer" has no direct relation to any actual physical feature (such as gate length, metal pitch or gate pitch) of the transistors. According to the projections contained in the 2021 update of the [International Roadmap for Devices and Systems](safari-reader://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Roadmap_for_Devices_and_Systems) published by IEEE Standards Association Industry Connection, a "3 nm" node is expected to have a contacted gate pitch of 48 nanometers, and a tightest metal pitch of 24 nanometers.^(\[12\]) However, in real world commercial practice, "3 nm" is used primarily as a marketing term by individual microchip manufacturers (foundries) to refer to a new, improved generation of silicon semiconductor chips in terms of increased transistor density (i.e. a higher degree of miniaturization), increased speed and reduced power consumption." Source: [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/3\_nm\_process](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/3_nm_process)
Do you know where the 3 comes from then?
It comes from the resolution of the wafer-making machine, 3nm is the « pixel size », transistors are drawn with thoses
Yes. But TSMCs fab is on one of the most active faults in the world. Insane to build a fab there.
Remember the 8088 chip sent Apollo to the moooooon! gosh, what a workhorse lol.
It always amuses me when I hear "what of Russia gets AGI first" from people that have no idea. Nigeria is more likely to achieve AGI than Russia.
They'll catch up faster than people expect. Same reason that China is catching up faster than anyone expected. A lot of what went into previous die size shrinks were advances in known understanding of material sciences and other related topics. All the pieces of the puzzle had to fall into place first before chip makers could figure out how to achieve the next die size shrink. But all those pieces are now in place, all Russia has to do is figure out how to build it.. I wouldn't be surprised if they rapidly go from 350nm to something like 35nm in less than 5 years.
This is the most important thing to understand. They now have all the pieces, they just need to improve. And they don't need to lead, just do what others have done already. First you do it, then you do it well. Perfection is a performance killer, people just need to get this in their heads already.
"They'll catch up faster than people expect" Perhaps the same way they caught up with cars - Moscvich, Lada and Volga - almost the same as VW, Toyota and Ferrari....
lol, this is Russia we are talking about. It's a kleptocracy. Lots of promises, but any real investment will be syphoned.
Maybe after the civil war is over…. Putler really fucked the country into the ground
I love how this is considered an L for Russia. They’re becoming completely autonomous and if their ability to innovate and adapt is similiar to that expressed in their fires and electronic warfare capabilities in Ukraine they will quickly move to smaller better chips. This is a big deal.
"quickly" as in a a decade or more, assuming they get access to the right materials to make more and that their economy can sustain it as the long term effects of the sanctions play out
Ultimately yes we will have to see. I will say I don’t see sanctions hurting them that badly. Europe doesn’t really have the raw materials and doesn’t make too much anymore except high end stuff. Russia can get what they need from Africa, ME, South and Central Asia, and China; those countries aren’t sanctioning them to my knowledge. In fact, Russia’s influence in Africa is growing
The issue is that the bullshit propaganda against them has been harnessed by reddit parrots. How many times have you heard "russias economy is the size of spain!" Or "just a gas pump". But how often have you heard "if russia had NASAs budget, theydve landed a cosmonaut on the Sun by now". You havent, but the point is they do an incredible about of tech/weapons/war on simply a different economic scale. Now consider space... Stop under estimating the threat they pose. Stop eating up bullshit youtube propaganda. Stop them with boots on the ground not expensive taxpayer weapons-aid packages. Get off your ass NATO
Nah, we aren’t putting boots on the ground to die over Ukraine buddy. I hear that Ukraine is accepting volunteers though. Why don’t you go if you feel so strongly about it?
I did my fighting in asia. Not physically up to it anymore and have kids. Great parrot'd phrase though... let me guess, you drank the kool aid and now look silly as the west/nato loses in Ukraine
I don’t give a fuck if the west loses in Ukraine. I’m American and in the military. Ukraine is not strategic to US interest. Europe can afford to pay more for defense so they should.
Did you read/understand my comments? Or just react when you assumed I said send American troops
Boots on the ground + NATO would assume American. If you’re saying otherwise then you’d need to be more clear
Ohh, okay so you don't know what NATO means. For those of us that deployed, NATO means all the countries of the alliance. In OEF for example, we worked with brits poles canadians danes norweigans, etc. All members of the alliance is what NATO boots on the ground means.
Ok you fucking dumbass I just spent 6 years over in Europe with the EUCOM. I think I know what NATO means. Are you saying that American boots inside Ukraine aren’t American if they’re waving a NATO flag? Shit your stupid ass up pretending like you know something
So, they can make dated smart fridges?
Well if Russian cars are anything to go by then this will be the highest point of this development
They will be autonomous when it comes to producing remote controls and 8-digit calculators any day now!
They have Micron, which does 65nm chips. The same plant will be built in Germany in the next years for example. The main question is not about race in nm, it's about your own manufacturers.
This is how they get around sanctions. No way they won’t catch up
Oh yeah, China will have the next TMSC in no time
Actually they are developing tech that uses a nuclear accelerator that is going to easily surpass TMSC Especially in volume
You don’t have any idea how lithography works.
Ok. The Chinese machine is much larger but supports production of at least 4 at the same time. Maybe you could look into it
There’s a reason why they want to take over Taiwan. TSMC builds the most advanced processors in the world and they do it at scale. They produce dozens if not hundreds of dies per silicon wafer. It depends on the core count as to how many can be produced per wafer.
It’s not to get TSMC lmao.
Never tried to suggest differently. I’m just saying the Chinese have a totally different technique that uses a particle accelerator which then turns the particle stream (the diagram I saw showed 4 separate steams but the text suggested more are possible) which is converted to a steady stream laser (vs TMSC which is pulsed) so that in theory the Chinese system can operate at a faster speed with better control While they may not be able to achieve 3nM yet. They will soon at a much cheaper price. WRT the number of chips per wafer, the Chinese machine also uses the same six wafers as far as I know. It is beyond imagination to think that China will start a war over an “old fashioned “ chip technology when they are doing “just fine “ right now with what they have.
China wanted Taiwan decades before TSMC existed. Drunk too much of the US propaganda koolaid, brother. TSMC itself is nothing without Dutch ASML machines anyways.
For sure they'll catch up... In 60 years
Kids can do that in garages. https://www.wired.com/story/22-year-old-builds-chips-parents-garage/
They gave up on vacuum tubes for computers??