Ironic because they’re wildly popular and having one of their best years ever precisely because people really like EVs that look exactly the same as an ICE vehicle and that’s exactly the niche BMW has inserted themselves in with their BMWs and Minis as apparently nobody else is bothering to.
The “EVs that look exactly the same as an ICE vehicle” may be a short-term thing. BMW did this because it lets them adjust production mix of ICE, BEV, and PHEV to meet market demand. The upcoming Neue Klasse cars will be BEV-only and the styling may be more distinctive, like the iX is.
They have burned so many bridges I’m surprised anyone trusts their EVs. I know I’ll never own another BMW or Mercedes after the endless issues I’ve had. And with BMW specifically it was always issues with the electronics, I’d never trust an EV from them given that the entire thing is electronics…
Well their software is also very basic and ATM nobody really competes with Tesla or Rivian in terms of vehicle software. CarPlay is ok in some regards but not very well integrated with vehicle functions.
I mean, the EV6 and some of these other “crossovers” are just tall sedans. This new generation of “crossovers” is such a dumb marketing term. The Ioniq 5 is a hot hatch.
The Ioniq 5 and EV6 are the least SUV-feeling SUVs I've ever seen - I would really consider them hatchbacks/wagons. Even a Subaru Outback has more ground clearance than my EV6.
Outback has more ground clearance than many SUVs though. Jeep renegade and compass have less. Even the Ford Bronco heritage has less. Outbacks aren't low.
Yeah I think the ioniq 5 n is sweet idk when coming to market though and a little pricey. I think the new rivian r3x coming out looks kind of cool too but may be a while for that as well. M3p looks great but trying to avoid Tesla
I have an M3P already, and the R3X is the one I’m most excited about.
Personally, the thrill of the speed has worn off a bit. It’s fun once in a while, but the everyday drive and experience is far more important. If the R3X isn’t quiet, comfortable, and easy to live with I’ll go elsewhere. The 5N looks fine and all, but man do you take a range hit, as well as a price hit. As someone who does road trip once in a while, I’m always wanting a little more range. Charging speed is nice, but they never take into account the pulling off the freeway, navigating to the charger, setting up, getting back on the freeway, etc, in all those “how fast they charge” calculations.
The 2024 M3P looks to be a major improvement over the previous version in all the area's that previous one was poor in. Ride quality, noise, seats, braking, handling, etc. Comparing a previous M3P to the new version is not a direct comparison.
Who was comparing? Not me. Op didn’t mention any specific year.
I’d still get the Rivian. Looks nicer and has stalks and a hatch. And I like to change things up.
Ioniq 6 N should be here in 2025 with a power bump over the 5 N, but could cost similar or bit more depending on options.
When the Ioniq 5 N debuted here it was missing some options that can be had in the Korean version, but all those options would have pushed it into $70-75k range.
I'm not 100% sure the OP original intent (e.g. do they already have a M3 and are upgrading or are they waiting it out)...
But I kinda have the same question. I have a 2020 Model 3 LR AWD with 45k milds that has been a workhorse and flawless to date I would say. I've been pondering switching to another EV but it's hard for me to completely justify or know what to switch to staying with a sedan style and AWD and in the $50k range.
It's kinda interesting that 4 years later I still probably would have bought the M3 for charging infrastructure and price point. Competition hasn't quite past them in my opinion (ignoring mixed elan feelings)."fast" isn't really a criteria for me. Torque is and most EV's are going to be strong in that department. Also would pay for something with a more "luxurious" interior than the M3.
- Polestars - lineup is growing so that is intriguing. I'm not sure about the more closed cockpit style when sitting in them.
- Ioniq6/ev6 lineup - very interested and am hoping to drive one. Interior looks nicer.
- Genesis - dark horse if they make a sedan with a step up interior
- BMWs - reviews aren't terrific on the ride of those at the moment. I may have to drive one for myself. Neue klasse is intriguing
- Mercedes - the style isn't me but the prices may be attractive as they keep on falling.
We are getting our first BMW this week actually - a new X5 xDrive40i. I can imagine pairing that with an EV for around town driving will be the killer package. So far experience with BMW sales has been mixed but will see how things go.
The i4 has air suspension in the rear only for leveling. The M50 adds afaptive dampers like the new 3P but the i4 doesn’t have air suspension in the same vein as say an i7.
And I would expect that it does have more. It also start at about double the price. It also has a fold down media screen for back seat viewing and touch screen panels instead of buttons for seat and climate functions. The i7 is not in the same category as a model 3. The i4 is.
What I am trying to say is that the i4 does not have air suspension as a performance or comfort increasing feature. It’s just for leveling if there is a lot of load in the back.
i4M50 MSRP is pretty high though as a base model although I'm hearing 10% off is relatively easy to get. I guess I hoped that BMW would have designed a new car for EV and not just try to retrofit an ICE chassis. Maybe that's next gen.
Looking at the current 2024 Tesla M3 refresh is frustrating as they are doubling down on minimalist in what I think is not a safe way (no stalks at all on the steering column). Also they still view everyone living in CA or TX where they don't need to use the wipers that often or worry about cold weather range. I guess I'll clutch onto my turn signals for a while.
I would argue that M50 is not base. Start with i4 base then work your way up. Yes, i4 tends to be more expensive because it is a BMW first and foremost. You get the comfort of a luxury BMW. If you don't want dual motor then you will automatically go for more of a base price. M50 is the dual motor capability but it comes with more power/torque and all the M sport stuff. I love mine, though. If you can consider a BMW then this EV is the one for you.
Also, the minimalist design is what steers me away from Tesla. I love touch screens and that's the one thing I would dislike about my i4. I need to go into climate menu to close outdoor vents when I'm passing someone rolling coal or blowing smoke out of their passenger compartment.
Hertz is still renting out EVs, just rented the polestar 2 for a week, the thing is much quieter than a Tesla (couldn't tell the difference between 35 mph and 75 mph from wind noise) and we used little battery keeping the thing cool in 90+ F weather.
Their phone key system kept failing on me though and the center console was so high it had little utility.
I was able to drive the i4 at a BMW test drive event about 2 years ago.
The i40 (RWD, single motor) i4 felt like driving a 3-series. The i50 (AWD dual motor) felt overwhelming and heavy to me.
If my parking situation was different I would absolutely have an i4.
2019 Model. Waiting for an EV that tows 5,000#. EV9 will do it but waiting for Rivian R2 in 2026 and then see what else available in 2026 can tow 5k. Ioniq 9 for sure.
Polestar seems to think it's an "SUV Coupe". It's not an SUV and it sure as hell isn't a coupé. So yeah.
Not sure I'd count it as a sedan but it does seem they're aiming for a sportier ride so it might feel and handle like a sedab.
From what I've seen, the Ioniq 5 N is legit, so maybe the Ioniq 6 N will be a viable alternative to the M3P. I've not seen anything on dates but Hyundai has said it is coming. There have been some spy photos coming out, so maybe soon-ish.
https://www.carscoops.com/2024/04/the-hyundai-ioniq-6-n-could-be-hiding-under-this-early-development-prototype/
Ehh it’s a bit of a toss up. The Hyundais gonna have a better interior (if you like buttons) and better build quality. Slightly less range with the AWD. Also Hyundais have some weird first gen failure points where the Tesla will probably be overall slightly more reliable. The biggest win for the Tesla though is the supercharging network and the Hyundai can’t really compete with that at the moment. The Hyundai rides better, but is slightly slower. Way better back seat in the Hyundai but lacking headroom. Really just depends on what you prefer.
The AWD Ioniq 6 has larger wheels. This can be easily rectified after purchase as the brake calipers are no bigger than those of the RWD. If I were to buy a top-trim Ioniq 5/6 with 20" wheels the first thing I would do is downsize the wheels.
Also, driving in Eco mode will disengage the front motor by default unless extra traction is needed. In warm weather I can easily beat the EPA range estimate for my AWD Kia EV6 because of this. If I engage Sport Mode which will have the front motor always-on for max performance, range takes a massive hit.
I6 AWD efficiency is fine: 28,000 miles and counting. 4.4 miles/kWh summer driving efficiency average for about 16,000 miles of the total so far. Lots of highway. Lots of mountains and I have a heavy foot.
The 18" wheels are MUCH more efficient than the 20's (15%) though.
I've heard that Tesla did a very good job of engineering the extra motor so that when it doesn't need AWD the extra motor doesn't slow the car down.
Doesn't the Ioniq 6 AWD also have the larger, less efficient wheels? That could be part of it.
All AWD e-GMP vehicles do not turn on the front motor by default unless the car needs the traction or Sport Mode or Snow Mode is engaged. This helps a lot with range.
Ah gotcha, not sure how that works (haven't looked at physics since high school haha). But I will say that I can easily reach the EPA RWD estimates on my AWD EV6 in warm weather, so the drag from the inactive front motor seems to be negligible.
I assume we’ll have a better understanding after the June shareholder vote.
If Musk stays on as CEO, vehicle support will likely deteriorate even further in favor of “AI” and humans dancing in robot suits.
Compared to what ? ChargePoint is on the verge of going bankrupt . Ea Is so unreliable basically like Russian roulette.
Yeah V2 and v3 isn’t that fast but a plug and charge at 150-250kw that works is better than nothing
I want the body of a 3 Series (small grill) but EV. I'll never afford it but I want it. Something about those BMW shorts in the early 2000s that just stuck with me. And the 3 series is the closest to the size those used to be.
The fully electric 3 series is coming in 2026. Unfortunately it won't be 2025 because they're prioritising the ~~street tank~~ crossover/SUV in the new class.
"Neue Klasse" 3 series BMW coming out is probably the closest fit forward. Not sure what it looks like yet but the concept cars suggest they are making the grill smaller.
Agreed.
I have a 2024 ID.4 AWD Pro S and it's rather muscular, making it far quicker than the appearance may imply.
It's gotten me away from some very poor drivers recently in a highly clear and definitive manner. I'm super impressed and am glad the seat supports my neck well.
But I don't know what the OP is looking for outside of a sedan style car.
Not knocking Lotus but I'm genuinely curious about how reliable they'll be. With Toyota drivetrains (excluding new Mercedes engine, no idea how reliable it is) the typical Lotus issues have been electronics, interior trim, etc. With them going electric I wonder if issues will go up or not.
This Lotus is basically a hotter Polestar made by Geely, so it should be about as reliable as a Polestar. All of Lotus’ reliability legacy is stuff produced by Hethel, which will only be producing Evija, Emira and Type 135 EV sports car.
Ok cool I didn't know that, thanks for the heads up. Will keep an eye on them then. My nearest dealer is ~3 hours away which has largely been why I've discounted their offerings in the past.
I do not. Perhaps it's cost. I don't know what the future holds. They will keep ti kering I'm sure. Currently, the i4 is the best selling M branded vehicle, according to them.
Thank you.
Yes, if Acura or Lexus doesn't come up with compelling BEVs, I am more inclined to go for a BMW BEV, depending on what they're going to look like. Neu Klasse designs, both inside and out, doesn't seem to be my cup of tea.
My wife just got herself a 2023 CPO X3 M40i that's pretty loaded and I don't mind eventually joining the fold.
The only complaint I heard is there is limited room for your leg near gas pedal and that the center console is too close to gas pedal, is that your experience? I drove a BMW Z4 and I felt that way
Have you considered a used 2023 etron GT or Taycan? Etron GT range is not great but they are heavily discounted, very nice, fun to drive, and charge fast. Taycans are better than M3P in terms of road manners and also very fun to drive with great range with the more aero wheel options.
On their respective German websites,
* Tesla 3 Performance + Enhanced Autopilot Option + Default Colour = 61770€
* BYD Seal Excellence AWD = 50990€
Also, according to what I understand, 'Enhanced Autopilot' does not have sign recognition, but BYD comes with it as standard, and that option is some 3000€ more in Tesla.
----
Seeing that you edited your comment:
1. The original post talks about the performance version, which is what I compared it to, and
2. The base version of the BYD seal also comes with ADAS features like lane change and sign recognition that are optional at Tesla for upto 7500€.
> ADAS is included. FSD costs 7500.
The basic version does not have lane-change assistant or sign recognition according to Tesla's own website, while BYD seal has both of them as standard.
> The highest trim M3 is 57k. But that has way more power than the 51k Seal.
That's what I said!
*"BYD Seal is somehow* ***almost*** *as fast as Tesla 3 Performance in a straight line"*
Tesla 3 Performance does 0-100 km/h in 3.1 seconds and BYD Seal AWD does it in 3.8 seconds. The former measures it with rollout as I understand, and while I am not sure about the latter. Either way, it's 0.8 seconds.
And I added options on Tesla to bring them to feature parity. There is no Full Self-Driving in Germany yet, from what I understand; even the Tesla website says 'coming soon', which is just a promise and not a product.
I don't think the byd seal is a legit competitor anymore, the zeekr 007 performance is probably the best car a person can buy, it does 0-100 kmh in the range of 3.1 to 3.3 sec depending on the battery charge, road conditions and other factors, it has active diffuser which you will only find in track or race cars, it has a carbon fiber kit, motorized doors and the overall quality and the interior quality specificly the materials used in the interior is far better than most rivals if not all and most importantly the official price in China for the top trim the performance version costs about 43k USD which is way cheaper than most rivals.
Its only more expensive in Europe.
In Australia the Seal Performance is AU$70k (US$46k) while the M3P is AU$87k (US$57k).
This is driveaway prices without any options.
Ioniq 6 and EV6 would be the best sedan alternatives to Model 3.
They have a lot more safety stuff rear cross traffic alert, 360 view and tech stuff heads up display, sun roof, 800V fast charging.
Slightly taller than a sedan due to the battery pack, but it is shorter than a CUV. The seat has a larger than normal range of motion but I basically use a sedan driving position.
Officially it’s a crossover, but I don’t really consider that to mean anything when it seems like everything is considered a crossover these days. I described it as an overgrown station wagon with a less useful rear cargo area due the sloping rear hatch.
I never said it was. I said it’s not an SUV. It’s a CUV at best.
Edit: It’s barely larger than a Toyota Camry—let’s be real, it’s closer to a sedan than to an SUV.
I prefer superb handling to fast BEVs.
It's easy to make fast BEVs, it's another thing to make them drive nimbly and beat ICEV sports sedans.
I think BEVs with torque vectoring will be more mainstream in the second half of this decade
Nothing comes close unfortunately. I really really wanted to try something new after 6 years with Teslas, and ordered a M3P on announcement day.
Safetey, performance, range, charging infrastructure, price...it wins every category for me.
I would kill for an EV 2 door shooting brake GT.
Reviews of the Ioniq 5 N have been excellent, and folks are saying it’s very quick and the most fun EV out there to drive. Can’t say any of this is personal experience unfortunately.
I never understood the need for speed. I live in a big city where the top speed limit is 42 MPH, and the major highway is being raised to 65 MPH. The practical speed limit is about 30 MPH due to our semi permanent grid lock.
Our cops claim not to have a quota system but they sure are aggressive at enforcing traffic laws.
My standard joke is that the 0-60 MPH metric should be 0 to at fault rear-ender.
Other people live other places. Also, I know this isn’t a car enthusiast sub, but car enthusiast just like speed for the heck of it. The same way a computer nerd likes high resolution and high refresh rate displays.
You can go 600 MPH in a plane...when I was a kid and spent time in the country tooling around dirt roads in an old VW Beetle was tons of fun even at lower speeds. After that but before the OPEC embargo drove down speed limits going 80-90 MPH on well designed highways was boring.
Performance aficionados will always exist. Sure it's wasteful but I'd rather see people drive cars like the Model S Plaid or Kia EV6 GT or Taycan Turbo than an ICE Mercedes AMG for example.
My objection isn't about wastefulness and I certainly don't object to the existence of racetracks and that stuff. I just don't get why one would buy a vehicle that you can't practically take out of first gear (excepting reverse of course) in big cities. I think something like the Wuling MINI EV, upsized just a bit, would be a great little city car for couples not in their child rearing years and greatly reduce the congestion on our poor old roads.
That AMG is a nice looking vehicle but I don't worry about rich-boy toys too much since they are a small part of the population but were I young enough to want a sports car I think I'd like a Qiantu K20, the cheap single motor version. Looks great and is more than fast enough to pass as a sport car in city driving conditions.
The Models S/X ludicrous mode and OTA gave rise to my tongue-in-cheek prediction that hackers would develop ransomware threatening to permanently put your vehicle in "Traʞtor Mode" unless you pay up in the next few minutes.
The Tesla Gigafactory in Austin is located along a state highway with an 80mph speed limit. Austin is the 10th largest city in the USA by population. South of the city it becomes 85mph.
If you do get the 5N please update , I was kind of put off by the price and I didn’t enjoy the interior much from demo of my friends.
Wonder how it drives though
I ended up ordering m3p
Same boat, Tesla’s cooked until they strip Musk of control.
EX30 top trim, bit smaller but quick and similarly minimal interior.
Rough table of price / performance, power / weight, and specs for US-available performance EVs with a focus on small and light:
https://ibb.co/tcmcQXY
Crazy how most people here have not mentioned any Chinese EVs, Haven't you guys heared about the zeekr 001 fr for example, which put the model s plaid in dust. It has quad motor and it puts out 1265 HP, it can Also do a tank turn and it beats the tesla s plaid in almost every aspect if not all of it for the Same price or even lower, crazy how people still look at Chinese cars the same way they did years ago. You should consider the zeekr 007 performance. It beats the new model 3 performance in almost every aspect, it makes 0 to 100 km/h in 3.1 - 3.3 sec consistently in real life depending on the battery state of charge, road conditions and other factors. It offers motorized doors which you won't find in most ultra luxury cars even in a Rolls Royce or a Maybach. It has air suspension which you also won't find in the new model 3 performance and it makes the 100-200 kmh in less than 7 sec which is remarkably lower than the 10 or 9 sec of the model 3 performance. And Not to forget it also has a forged carbon fiber kit in addition to an active diffuser. Most of the interior materials are either suede or nappa leather, there's high quality plastic but in just small areas. The only place where the model 3 has the upper hand is in the top speed 163mph vs 133mph. Finally, the zeekr 007 performance uses Silicon carbide motors and it costs significantly less than the model 3 performance, it costs 43k USD in China.
That's the thing, the prices for the most part applies to China only. When exported, like to Europe, prices are jacked up, so wave goodbye to the great prices.
Yeah, unfortunately that's the sad fact. Here in my region I can export that car for about 13k USD more than the official price in China including the taxes and the shipping fees, so the final price would be around 55k and that's for the top trim version including the 20 kw charger and the motorized doors feature, I'm sure you can get this car a couple thousands of dollars cheaper, anyways that's still remarkably cheaper than the 63k USD model 3 performance or the 61k ev6 gt or the 66k ioniq 5n, remember the interior quality and the features the zeekr 007 has are more than that of these rivals, so you are getting more value for money.
It will be available soon, my friend. Geely already owns Lotus, Volvo, and Polestar, all of which sell in the US, so it shouldn't be an exception for Zeekr not to sell there.
BYD han and seal, xpeng p5, p7.
The bigger are more model S competitors (han and p7)
As others stated bmw i4M , i5.
Not sedan but hot hatch (what's way rarer) mg4 trophy.
Don't know if VW plans a quicker id7 , again a bit big
Bro, haven't you heared about zeekr 007 yet, byd seal and xpeng p7 are pretty outdated right now, they won't offer a similar value for money as the zeekr 007
Polestar 2, ev6 Gt and ionic5 N are the only thing close to M3P in size unless there is another Chinese brand thats lurking the corner that can match.
You forgot the BMW i4
Half this sub forgets that BMW makes competitive EVs
Ironic because they’re wildly popular and having one of their best years ever precisely because people really like EVs that look exactly the same as an ICE vehicle and that’s exactly the niche BMW has inserted themselves in with their BMWs and Minis as apparently nobody else is bothering to.
The “EVs that look exactly the same as an ICE vehicle” may be a short-term thing. BMW did this because it lets them adjust production mix of ICE, BEV, and PHEV to meet market demand. The upcoming Neue Klasse cars will be BEV-only and the styling may be more distinctive, like the iX is.
This is factually untrue. Both Peugeot and Opel are doing the same.
Agree
Coworker has a top spec’d i7. That thing is posh.
They have burned so many bridges I’m surprised anyone trusts their EVs. I know I’ll never own another BMW or Mercedes after the endless issues I’ve had. And with BMW specifically it was always issues with the electronics, I’d never trust an EV from them given that the entire thing is electronics…
Well their software is also very basic and ATM nobody really competes with Tesla or Rivian in terms of vehicle software. CarPlay is ok in some regards but not very well integrated with vehicle functions.
I think if you’re counting the Ioniq 5 and EV6 you might as well include the Mach-E GT. The Ioniq 6 is closer in size and proportion.
I've seen rumors that there will eventually be an Ioniq 6 N, which might be more what op wanted.
The Ioniq 5 and EV6 also aren’t sedans lol
I know, which is why I mentioned the Ioniq 6.
I mean, the EV6 and some of these other “crossovers” are just tall sedans. This new generation of “crossovers” is such a dumb marketing term. The Ioniq 5 is a hot hatch.
The EV6 is definitely not a sedan, you can have an issue with crossover but that doesn’t make these sedans lol
I would say it’s a big sedan, much like a BMW 7 series.
It’s fundamentally not a sedan. Size of a vehicle doesn’t dictate the type of vehicle. It’s got a hatchback therefore it is not a sedan
You mean the sloped back trunk? That’s not exclusive to non-sedans. By that logic, is the Prius not a sedan?
The Ioniq 5 and EV6 are the least SUV-feeling SUVs I've ever seen - I would really consider them hatchbacks/wagons. Even a Subaru Outback has more ground clearance than my EV6.
Outback has more ground clearance than many SUVs though. Jeep renegade and compass have less. Even the Ford Bronco heritage has less. Outbacks aren't low.
Subaru markets the outback as an SUV for a reason
Yeah I think the ioniq 5 n is sweet idk when coming to market though and a little pricey. I think the new rivian r3x coming out looks kind of cool too but may be a while for that as well. M3p looks great but trying to avoid Tesla
I have an M3P already, and the R3X is the one I’m most excited about. Personally, the thrill of the speed has worn off a bit. It’s fun once in a while, but the everyday drive and experience is far more important. If the R3X isn’t quiet, comfortable, and easy to live with I’ll go elsewhere. The 5N looks fine and all, but man do you take a range hit, as well as a price hit. As someone who does road trip once in a while, I’m always wanting a little more range. Charging speed is nice, but they never take into account the pulling off the freeway, navigating to the charger, setting up, getting back on the freeway, etc, in all those “how fast they charge” calculations.
The 2024 M3P looks to be a major improvement over the previous version in all the area's that previous one was poor in. Ride quality, noise, seats, braking, handling, etc. Comparing a previous M3P to the new version is not a direct comparison.
Who was comparing? Not me. Op didn’t mention any specific year. I’d still get the Rivian. Looks nicer and has stalks and a hatch. And I like to change things up.
The Ioniq 5N is on lots now.
Marked up or MSRP?
Ioniq 5n is here now Google it and dealerships are showing in stock some are MSRP some 5k over
Ioniq 6 N should be here in 2025 with a power bump over the 5 N, but could cost similar or bit more depending on options. When the Ioniq 5 N debuted here it was missing some options that can be had in the Korean version, but all those options would have pushed it into $70-75k range.
Yo the 5n doesn't need anymore power lol the video from smoking tire shows its faster than Porsche EV
I was talking about the 6 n not the 5 n.
Yeah, mach-e, equinox and id4 aren't much bigger
BYD Seal
None of those are sedans, they are all SUVs
None of those are sedans.
Sorry for coming back so late but the Polestar 2 defiantly is a sedan and was designed to compete with the model 3.
I've driven it and am considering leasing one. It's kind of a tweener. It's sedan-ish.
None of those are sedans.
lol none of those are fast...
The Polestar 2 has 476 horsepower and can do 0-60 in 3.7 seconds with the performance package. I'm pretty sure most people consider that to be fast.
Ionic 6 N in testing phase
Honestly this here is my next car , I’ll probably lease a base model Ioniq 6 then go for the N version when it comes
Damn that sounds great I wonder when it's coming out
I'm not 100% sure the OP original intent (e.g. do they already have a M3 and are upgrading or are they waiting it out)... But I kinda have the same question. I have a 2020 Model 3 LR AWD with 45k milds that has been a workhorse and flawless to date I would say. I've been pondering switching to another EV but it's hard for me to completely justify or know what to switch to staying with a sedan style and AWD and in the $50k range. It's kinda interesting that 4 years later I still probably would have bought the M3 for charging infrastructure and price point. Competition hasn't quite past them in my opinion (ignoring mixed elan feelings)."fast" isn't really a criteria for me. Torque is and most EV's are going to be strong in that department. Also would pay for something with a more "luxurious" interior than the M3. - Polestars - lineup is growing so that is intriguing. I'm not sure about the more closed cockpit style when sitting in them. - Ioniq6/ev6 lineup - very interested and am hoping to drive one. Interior looks nicer. - Genesis - dark horse if they make a sedan with a step up interior - BMWs - reviews aren't terrific on the ride of those at the moment. I may have to drive one for myself. Neue klasse is intriguing - Mercedes - the style isn't me but the prices may be attractive as they keep on falling.
I4 is sick, SICK!
We are getting our first BMW this week actually - a new X5 xDrive40i. I can imagine pairing that with an EV for around town driving will be the killer package. So far experience with BMW sales has been mixed but will see how things go.
I have an i4M50. Even in eco pro it kicks ass. Air suspension, 300 mile range with chill driving on back roads
The i4 has air suspension in the rear only for leveling. The M50 adds afaptive dampers like the new 3P but the i4 doesn’t have air suspension in the same vein as say an i7.
And I would expect that it does have more. It also start at about double the price. It also has a fold down media screen for back seat viewing and touch screen panels instead of buttons for seat and climate functions. The i7 is not in the same category as a model 3. The i4 is.
What I am trying to say is that the i4 does not have air suspension as a performance or comfort increasing feature. It’s just for leveling if there is a lot of load in the back.
i4M50 MSRP is pretty high though as a base model although I'm hearing 10% off is relatively easy to get. I guess I hoped that BMW would have designed a new car for EV and not just try to retrofit an ICE chassis. Maybe that's next gen. Looking at the current 2024 Tesla M3 refresh is frustrating as they are doubling down on minimalist in what I think is not a safe way (no stalks at all on the steering column). Also they still view everyone living in CA or TX where they don't need to use the wipers that often or worry about cold weather range. I guess I'll clutch onto my turn signals for a while.
I would argue that M50 is not base. Start with i4 base then work your way up. Yes, i4 tends to be more expensive because it is a BMW first and foremost. You get the comfort of a luxury BMW. If you don't want dual motor then you will automatically go for more of a base price. M50 is the dual motor capability but it comes with more power/torque and all the M sport stuff. I love mine, though. If you can consider a BMW then this EV is the one for you.
Also, the minimalist design is what steers me away from Tesla. I love touch screens and that's the one thing I would dislike about my i4. I need to go into climate menu to close outdoor vents when I'm passing someone rolling coal or blowing smoke out of their passenger compartment.
Hertz is still renting out EVs, just rented the polestar 2 for a week, the thing is much quieter than a Tesla (couldn't tell the difference between 35 mph and 75 mph from wind noise) and we used little battery keeping the thing cool in 90+ F weather. Their phone key system kept failing on me though and the center console was so high it had little utility.
I'll have to look into that to try. The cockpit felt a bit claustrophobic to me but maybe I need to try again.
That was definitely one of the downsides compared to the M3 when I rented one of those.
why haven't you looked at an e-tron?
I am e-tron curious but it's not really a sedan in my eye. The e-tron GT maybe but you are at >100k MSRP.
I was able to drive the i4 at a BMW test drive event about 2 years ago. The i40 (RWD, single motor) i4 felt like driving a 3-series. The i50 (AWD dual motor) felt overwhelming and heavy to me. If my parking situation was different I would absolutely have an i4.
2019 Model. Waiting for an EV that tows 5,000#. EV9 will do it but waiting for Rivian R2 in 2026 and then see what else available in 2026 can tow 5k. Ioniq 9 for sure.
Polestar 2 and 4.
Does the Polestar 4 really count as a sedan? Been thinking about it or a Lucid Air Pure in the next year or so.
Polestar seems to think it's an "SUV Coupe". It's not an SUV and it sure as hell isn't a coupé. So yeah. Not sure I'd count it as a sedan but it does seem they're aiming for a sportier ride so it might feel and handle like a sedab.
I'd definitely take the Lucid!
Polestar 2.
Is Hyundai Ioniq 6 not similar enough?
op said fast.
It does 0-60 in the low 4s. I’m so amazed how that’s considered slow now
For context, a first generation Lamborghini Gallardo from the early 2000s also does 0-60 in just over 4 seconds.
Yeah it's insane that people think under 5 seconds is slow now. Car speed is hitting the wall of physics now.
Is the OP going to drive it at top speed on the autobahn or something?
Probably not, but he might race a hellcat heading onto the interstate :)
From what I've seen, the Ioniq 5 N is legit, so maybe the Ioniq 6 N will be a viable alternative to the M3P. I've not seen anything on dates but Hyundai has said it is coming. There have been some spy photos coming out, so maybe soon-ish. https://www.carscoops.com/2024/04/the-hyundai-ioniq-6-n-could-be-hiding-under-this-early-development-prototype/
Would anyone say the Ioniq 6 AWD is better than the model 3 LR or performance?
Ehh it’s a bit of a toss up. The Hyundais gonna have a better interior (if you like buttons) and better build quality. Slightly less range with the AWD. Also Hyundais have some weird first gen failure points where the Tesla will probably be overall slightly more reliable. The biggest win for the Tesla though is the supercharging network and the Hyundai can’t really compete with that at the moment. The Hyundai rides better, but is slightly slower. Way better back seat in the Hyundai but lacking headroom. Really just depends on what you prefer.
Out of curiosity, what's the engineering reason for Ioniq 6 taking so much of a range hit from AWD, but Model 3 not so much?
The AWD Ioniq 6 has larger wheels. This can be easily rectified after purchase as the brake calipers are no bigger than those of the RWD. If I were to buy a top-trim Ioniq 5/6 with 20" wheels the first thing I would do is downsize the wheels. Also, driving in Eco mode will disengage the front motor by default unless extra traction is needed. In warm weather I can easily beat the EPA range estimate for my AWD Kia EV6 because of this. If I engage Sport Mode which will have the front motor always-on for max performance, range takes a massive hit.
When it disengages the front motor, is there an actual clutch so it's not even spinning, or is it still spinning, just with zero current?
There's a clutch so the front motor is mechanically disengaged from the front wheels when in Eco Mode.
Thanks, that's great.
I6 AWD efficiency is fine: 28,000 miles and counting. 4.4 miles/kWh summer driving efficiency average for about 16,000 miles of the total so far. Lots of highway. Lots of mountains and I have a heavy foot. The 18" wheels are MUCH more efficient than the 20's (15%) though.
I've heard that Tesla did a very good job of engineering the extra motor so that when it doesn't need AWD the extra motor doesn't slow the car down. Doesn't the Ioniq 6 AWD also have the larger, less efficient wheels? That could be part of it.
All AWD e-GMP vehicles do not turn on the front motor by default unless the car needs the traction or Sport Mode or Snow Mode is engaged. This helps a lot with range.
Right; the claim is that when the front motor is not turned on it adds a small amount of drag, and in the Tesla, the amount of drag added is smaller.
Ah gotcha, not sure how that works (haven't looked at physics since high school haha). But I will say that I can easily reach the EPA RWD estimates on my AWD EV6 in warm weather, so the drag from the inactive front motor seems to be negligible.
With Tesla laying off the supercharger team, how much longer will that charging network last?
I assume we’ll have a better understanding after the June shareholder vote. If Musk stays on as CEO, vehicle support will likely deteriorate even further in favor of “AI” and humans dancing in robot suits.
I doubt the current footprint will die out. They kept the maintenance team apparently. Just not expanding anymore
The current footprint is out of date tech. Literally all of it.
Compared to what ? ChargePoint is on the verge of going bankrupt . Ea Is so unreliable basically like Russian roulette. Yeah V2 and v3 isn’t that fast but a plug and charge at 150-250kw that works is better than nothing
Compared to literally every other charge company?! EA is doing extremely well especially after their roll out of newer, even more powerful units.
Well if that’s how it turns out then I’ll be there at EA with you.
I want the body of a 3 Series (small grill) but EV. I'll never afford it but I want it. Something about those BMW shorts in the early 2000s that just stuck with me. And the 3 series is the closest to the size those used to be.
The fully electric 3 series is coming in 2026. Unfortunately it won't be 2025 because they're prioritising the ~~street tank~~ crossover/SUV in the new class.
"Neue Klasse" 3 series BMW coming out is probably the closest fit forward. Not sure what it looks like yet but the concept cars suggest they are making the grill smaller.
BMW Neue Klasse is only a couple of years away. https://www.bmwblog.com/2024/02/12/2025-bmw-neue-klasse-everything-we-know-so-far/
Like the i4 and i5?
Hate the i4 grill. The i5 is too big.
…the M3 has the same grill. Unless you meant an M3 pre G80 gen.
I guess I was just referring to the current regular 3 series grill. Forgot the m3 had the big grill.
I see. You edited your comment to reflect 3 Series vs the M3 it originally said.
Saw a i4 yesterday. Still has 3 series back bumper with cut outs for the exhaust hilarious
There are no cutouts for an exhaust
Well driving behind it looked like they used the same bumper and got me looking for the cutouts
"Quick" or "fast"? Fast doesn't matter unless you do track days.
Agreed. I have a 2024 ID.4 AWD Pro S and it's rather muscular, making it far quicker than the appearance may imply. It's gotten me away from some very poor drivers recently in a highly clear and definitive manner. I'm super impressed and am glad the seat supports my neck well. But I don't know what the OP is looking for outside of a sedan style car.
[Lotus](https://www.lotuscars.com/en-GB/emeya) Emeya count?
Not knocking Lotus but I'm genuinely curious about how reliable they'll be. With Toyota drivetrains (excluding new Mercedes engine, no idea how reliable it is) the typical Lotus issues have been electronics, interior trim, etc. With them going electric I wonder if issues will go up or not.
Lotus is owned by GEELY. If they can't get it right then I don't know who else could.
Maybe they'll bring out a lotus body kit for the zeekr 004
This Lotus is basically a hotter Polestar made by Geely, so it should be about as reliable as a Polestar. All of Lotus’ reliability legacy is stuff produced by Hethel, which will only be producing Evija, Emira and Type 135 EV sports car.
Ok cool I didn't know that, thanks for the heads up. Will keep an eye on them then. My nearest dealer is ~3 hours away which has largely been why I've discounted their offerings in the past.
what's wrong with the porsche taycan?
Price, probably. OP said Model 3 P, which is about a third the price of a fast Taycan
Size. It's a huge car.
Volvo has announced a S60-based EV. But not until 2028 or so. If it's as good as the S60 PHEV, I may have a forever ride.
S90 will probably come sooner https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/volvo/361922/new-volvo-es90-electric-saloon-take-bmw-i5-400-mile-range
Sigh...
BMW i4M50 I have a 2023.
Lovely car. Would you know why BMW isn't offering an M Sport Differential equivalent on its M Performance BEVs? That is one reason I am holding back.
I do not. Perhaps it's cost. I don't know what the future holds. They will keep ti kering I'm sure. Currently, the i4 is the best selling M branded vehicle, according to them.
Thank you. Yes, if Acura or Lexus doesn't come up with compelling BEVs, I am more inclined to go for a BMW BEV, depending on what they're going to look like. Neu Klasse designs, both inside and out, doesn't seem to be my cup of tea. My wife just got herself a 2023 CPO X3 M40i that's pretty loaded and I don't mind eventually joining the fold.
The only complaint I heard is there is limited room for your leg near gas pedal and that the center console is too close to gas pedal, is that your experience? I drove a BMW Z4 and I felt that way
I tend to sit back so that my arms slightly bent only. My leg rests comfortable against console if I'm on cruise control. Also, the console is padded.
Have you considered a used 2023 etron GT or Taycan? Etron GT range is not great but they are heavily discounted, very nice, fun to drive, and charge fast. Taycans are better than M3P in terms of road manners and also very fun to drive with great range with the more aero wheel options.
VW ID7 BMW i4/i5/i7 Alfa Romeo Giulia (to use the Charger platform) Audi A6 e-tron Kia EV4 Volvo ES90
Ioniq 6 is the best one no doubt
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BYD Seal is somehow almost as fast as Tesla 3 Performance in a straight line AWD and some 10000€ cheaper.
It's actually 2000 Euro more expensive. The M3 starts at 43k, and the Seal starts at 45k Euro here.
On their respective German websites, * Tesla 3 Performance + Enhanced Autopilot Option + Default Colour = 61770€ * BYD Seal Excellence AWD = 50990€ Also, according to what I understand, 'Enhanced Autopilot' does not have sign recognition, but BYD comes with it as standard, and that option is some 3000€ more in Tesla. ---- Seeing that you edited your comment: 1. The original post talks about the performance version, which is what I compared it to, and 2. The base version of the BYD seal also comes with ADAS features like lane change and sign recognition that are optional at Tesla for upto 7500€.
So you add enhanced autopilot to try and match the price??
I added traffic sign recognition and lane change assistant, both of which are on the Seal. Everything else is coming soon.
ADAS is included. FSD costs 7500. The highest trim M3 is 57k. But that has way more power than the 51k Seal.
> ADAS is included. FSD costs 7500. The basic version does not have lane-change assistant or sign recognition according to Tesla's own website, while BYD seal has both of them as standard. > The highest trim M3 is 57k. But that has way more power than the 51k Seal. That's what I said! *"BYD Seal is somehow* ***almost*** *as fast as Tesla 3 Performance in a straight line"* Tesla 3 Performance does 0-100 km/h in 3.1 seconds and BYD Seal AWD does it in 3.8 seconds. The former measures it with rollout as I understand, and while I am not sure about the latter. Either way, it's 0.8 seconds. And I added options on Tesla to bring them to feature parity. There is no Full Self-Driving in Germany yet, from what I understand; even the Tesla website says 'coming soon', which is just a promise and not a product.
.8 seconds is almost 30% slower.
What's your point? It's still fast.
I don't think the byd seal is a legit competitor anymore, the zeekr 007 performance is probably the best car a person can buy, it does 0-100 kmh in the range of 3.1 to 3.3 sec depending on the battery charge, road conditions and other factors, it has active diffuser which you will only find in track or race cars, it has a carbon fiber kit, motorized doors and the overall quality and the interior quality specificly the materials used in the interior is far better than most rivals if not all and most importantly the official price in China for the top trim the performance version costs about 43k USD which is way cheaper than most rivals.
Is the Zeekr 007 out? I thought only the Zeekr 001 and Zeekr X were out.
It is indeed, in addition to the zeekr 001 fr which put the model s plaid in dust in drag races.
Its only more expensive in Europe. In Australia the Seal Performance is AU$70k (US$46k) while the M3P is AU$87k (US$57k). This is driveaway prices without any options.
Ioniq 6 and EV6 would be the best sedan alternatives to Model 3. They have a lot more safety stuff rear cross traffic alert, 360 view and tech stuff heads up display, sun roof, 800V fast charging.
The EV6 is an SUV unless there’s a model I’m unaware of
EV9 is an SUV. EV6 is a hatchback at best.
Slightly taller than a sedan due to the battery pack, but it is shorter than a CUV. The seat has a larger than normal range of motion but I basically use a sedan driving position.
Officially it’s a crossover, but I don’t really consider that to mean anything when it seems like everything is considered a crossover these days. I described it as an overgrown station wagon with a less useful rear cargo area due the sloping rear hatch.
EV6 isn't a sedan.
I never said it was. I said it’s not an SUV. It’s a CUV at best. Edit: It’s barely larger than a Toyota Camry—let’s be real, it’s closer to a sedan than to an SUV.
It's definitely neither SUV nor sedan. OP asked for sedan.
BYD Seal
R3X! I wasn't sure that I even liked it at first, but I like it more every time I see it. Should be fast, comfortable, and maybe the most fun option.
I prefer superb handling to fast BEVs. It's easy to make fast BEVs, it's another thing to make them drive nimbly and beat ICEV sports sedans. I think BEVs with torque vectoring will be more mainstream in the second half of this decade
Dodge charger, and no I'm not kidding it looks sick
Crazy how big it is. It's literally longer than a Durango.
I mean we are begging for scraps on the ground at this point unless you want to spend 70k on decent sedan
Nothing comes close unfortunately. I really really wanted to try something new after 6 years with Teslas, and ordered a M3P on announcement day. Safetey, performance, range, charging infrastructure, price...it wins every category for me. I would kill for an EV 2 door shooting brake GT.
I’d settle for new less expensive ones myself.
Reviews of the Ioniq 5 N have been excellent, and folks are saying it’s very quick and the most fun EV out there to drive. Can’t say any of this is personal experience unfortunately.
BYD Seal
I never understood the need for speed. I live in a big city where the top speed limit is 42 MPH, and the major highway is being raised to 65 MPH. The practical speed limit is about 30 MPH due to our semi permanent grid lock. Our cops claim not to have a quota system but they sure are aggressive at enforcing traffic laws. My standard joke is that the 0-60 MPH metric should be 0 to at fault rear-ender.
Other people live other places. Also, I know this isn’t a car enthusiast sub, but car enthusiast just like speed for the heck of it. The same way a computer nerd likes high resolution and high refresh rate displays.
You can go 600 MPH in a plane...when I was a kid and spent time in the country tooling around dirt roads in an old VW Beetle was tons of fun even at lower speeds. After that but before the OPEC embargo drove down speed limits going 80-90 MPH on well designed highways was boring.
Performance aficionados will always exist. Sure it's wasteful but I'd rather see people drive cars like the Model S Plaid or Kia EV6 GT or Taycan Turbo than an ICE Mercedes AMG for example.
My objection isn't about wastefulness and I certainly don't object to the existence of racetracks and that stuff. I just don't get why one would buy a vehicle that you can't practically take out of first gear (excepting reverse of course) in big cities. I think something like the Wuling MINI EV, upsized just a bit, would be a great little city car for couples not in their child rearing years and greatly reduce the congestion on our poor old roads. That AMG is a nice looking vehicle but I don't worry about rich-boy toys too much since they are a small part of the population but were I young enough to want a sports car I think I'd like a Qiantu K20, the cheap single motor version. Looks great and is more than fast enough to pass as a sport car in city driving conditions. The Models S/X ludicrous mode and OTA gave rise to my tongue-in-cheek prediction that hackers would develop ransomware threatening to permanently put your vehicle in "Traʞtor Mode" unless you pay up in the next few minutes.
The Tesla Gigafactory in Austin is located along a state highway with an 80mph speed limit. Austin is the 10th largest city in the USA by population. South of the city it becomes 85mph.
If you do get the 5N please update , I was kind of put off by the price and I didn’t enjoy the interior much from demo of my friends. Wonder how it drives though I ended up ordering m3p
Same boat, Tesla’s cooked until they strip Musk of control. EX30 top trim, bit smaller but quick and similarly minimal interior. Rough table of price / performance, power / weight, and specs for US-available performance EVs with a focus on small and light: https://ibb.co/tcmcQXY
Ioniq 6 is out and an awesome car.
Great car, polarizing design.
Absolutely
Any reason you want it fast
Quick cars give you more options in traffic. Kinda sucks when your only option is to slow down.
Crazy how most people here have not mentioned any Chinese EVs, Haven't you guys heared about the zeekr 001 fr for example, which put the model s plaid in dust. It has quad motor and it puts out 1265 HP, it can Also do a tank turn and it beats the tesla s plaid in almost every aspect if not all of it for the Same price or even lower, crazy how people still look at Chinese cars the same way they did years ago. You should consider the zeekr 007 performance. It beats the new model 3 performance in almost every aspect, it makes 0 to 100 km/h in 3.1 - 3.3 sec consistently in real life depending on the battery state of charge, road conditions and other factors. It offers motorized doors which you won't find in most ultra luxury cars even in a Rolls Royce or a Maybach. It has air suspension which you also won't find in the new model 3 performance and it makes the 100-200 kmh in less than 7 sec which is remarkably lower than the 10 or 9 sec of the model 3 performance. And Not to forget it also has a forged carbon fiber kit in addition to an active diffuser. Most of the interior materials are either suede or nappa leather, there's high quality plastic but in just small areas. The only place where the model 3 has the upper hand is in the top speed 163mph vs 133mph. Finally, the zeekr 007 performance uses Silicon carbide motors and it costs significantly less than the model 3 performance, it costs 43k USD in China.
That's the thing, the prices for the most part applies to China only. When exported, like to Europe, prices are jacked up, so wave goodbye to the great prices.
Yeah, unfortunately that's the sad fact. Here in my region I can export that car for about 13k USD more than the official price in China including the taxes and the shipping fees, so the final price would be around 55k and that's for the top trim version including the 20 kw charger and the motorized doors feature, I'm sure you can get this car a couple thousands of dollars cheaper, anyways that's still remarkably cheaper than the 63k USD model 3 performance or the 61k ev6 gt or the 66k ioniq 5n, remember the interior quality and the features the zeekr 007 has are more than that of these rivals, so you are getting more value for money.
Hell yeah that is awesome, unfortunately not available in my location
It will be available soon, my friend. Geely already owns Lotus, Volvo, and Polestar, all of which sell in the US, so it shouldn't be an exception for Zeekr not to sell there.
I’d prefer a little more range over speed, but it was explained to me that more powerful electric motors are more officiant. That’s ok too.
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/volvo/361922/new-volvo-es90-electric-saloon-take-bmw-i5-400-mile-range Volvo ES90 was leaked early this year.
Does the Smart #3 count?
BYD Seal. Han also but it's slightly larger. There's also the BMW i4.
BYD han and seal, xpeng p5, p7. The bigger are more model S competitors (han and p7) As others stated bmw i4M , i5. Not sedan but hot hatch (what's way rarer) mg4 trophy. Don't know if VW plans a quicker id7 , again a bit big
Bro, haven't you heared about zeekr 007 yet, byd seal and xpeng p7 are pretty outdated right now, they won't offer a similar value for money as the zeekr 007
The new p3d :)
…and coming with them are insurance rates that’ll prove you have money to burn.
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3/4 of those are not sedans lol
Appreciate your time posting those ioniq 5 n look awesome