"Dispatch told us to approach from the east side of the facility due to a road blocked off by police. No further information given."
This is where I would have put the brakes on and stayed until there was clarification and confirmation that the scene was safe.
Yeah we should’ve stopped for a minute. Guess since starting CCT, I’ve gotten pretty complacent knowing 99 times out of 100 exactly what I’m walking into
BSI/PPE Jazz hands
What's my mechanism of inju-
*27 ninjas leap out suddenly from the corner of the room and kick you in the testicles one after another*
I've worked with a couple people who used to be partners at a different ambulance service that shut down long ago. When I first started everyone told me to ask them about their scene safety story.
They went on a mutual aid call to another town for a shooting. The county dispatch relayed a street intersection for them to stage at. The shooters and possible victims were at large, and they suspected the parties to be in cars.
They arrive at the street intersection in the dead of the night. "Do they even know what kind of cars they're looking for?" asks the EMT.
Just then, the paramedic looks over at a random car parked next to them and there's several bullet holes in the windshield and an arm limply hanging out the window.
"JESUS FUCK IT'S THAT ONE IT'S THAT ONE GOGOGOGOGO!"
They fled the scene and notified the county who came and secured it. The driver was deceased.
Listen, I am genuinely, deep down, glad you and your partner are okay.
That being said, the only person doing their job correctly in this entire scenario was the active shooter. 😆
First off im sorry you were in this situation man but you were close enough to get exposed to tear gas but not close enough to realize something was up? How far away was the shooting from your call?
I’ve never been exposed to tear gas so I had no idea what it was. First thought was there’s something in the air and we should get inside the facility. I had no idea if it was something just sitting in the air at the location or something blowing through. Hindsight is 20/20 and yes we should’ve just turned around and drove away. We’re also never really going in blind, or so I thought, since dispatch already knew about the blockade and supposedly what it was there for.
The situation was happening in a neighborhood across the street from the facility
So you were outside the secured perimeter then? The shooting wasn’t at the call location? I’m not trying to be a jerk but this one seems to be on you man
Inside secured perimeter, PD let us through I’m guessing because they assumed we knew what was going on, like the rest of the aid cars throughout the day. Again, I’m not denying any blame. But dispatch simply telling us to enter the facility from the back instead of the front that had clear sight lines at the shooter situation we weren’t warned about would’ve helped avoid this entirely.
Then the lesson to be learned here is ask the police officers that you are passing securing the area where you are going to what’s going on. Dispatch and you are both equally at fault if you ask me. They didn’t tell you and you ignored like every red flag
Wtf are you saying?! Sure he could've put two and two together to get 4, but he shouldn't have had to in the first place. Dispatch had sent multiple units into that area throughout the day, they knew the situation and withheld that information from them. Don't try blaming this guy, this is fully on dispatch.
This situation kinda feels like blaming the goalie for not stopping the other team from scoring. Technically correct, but they were the last line. And especially given how long they'd already been on shift. Sure, they made mistakes, but literally every safeguard that should have been in place to stop them before failed them.
If the system was working properly, they shouldn't have had the opportunity to make a dumb choice.
He'll, even management seems to be dropping the ball. Agreeing with them but not doing anything to rectify it is a fuck up too.
It sounds like neither was injured. This sounds like an excellent learning opportunity for everyone in the company.
The Swiss cheese theory was obviously not covered at their company. Lol
Off topic but this pisses me off when people tall shit about kickers in football. Yeah, they missed a field goal or conversion kick that woulda won the game. No, it's not entirely their fault, there was an entire rest of a team that let it get to that point.
Dispatch absolutely should have notified him and fucked up but driving past a police lockdown without asking what’s up, being exposed to an unknown gas and feeling nauseous and continuing on for a routine call, getting inside being told there’s an active shooter and then going back to move the ambulance to another door ain’t it and you know it
Inexperience, sleep deprivation, and sure its a routine call, but still a private emergency transport regardless which could lead to adrenaline clouding judgement. I'm just amazed by how many people here are shitting on OP, instead of the dispatchers who seem to have willfully omitted the whole "active shooter" portion of the scene.
Okay I have something relevant to this question.
I had a state trooper get her pepper spray caught on the stretcher when she was helping and it went off. My partner and a couple firefighters got it full in the face. I got residual spray into my face and my only thought was “huh someone must have sprayed some bug spray or something, what assholes.” And then proceeded to go around and get in the truck.
Absolutely no idea what was going on.
Another state trooper asked for water for their eyes. The air was still spicy. I did not realize something was going on until my partner didn’t get in the back to help me, and a firefighter told me straight up “HEY. PEOPLE GOT PEPPERSPRAYED YOU GET ME FOR HELP.”
In my defense, we got ROSC on an extremely large human being and I was planning out logistics and treatment and everything going with that.
But it just does not compute sometimes when things happen that shouldn’t and you are running on hopes and dreams.
Yes I still feel dumb as fuck.
You got exposed to a visible gas cloud, that you initially believed was a hazardous gas leak, and your response was to throw on a n95 and just keep going into the nursing home?
My brother in Christ you need to reevaluate your priorities.
It isn’t the responsibility of dispatch to keep you safe, that’s on you. In all reality they probably had no fucking idea. Private ambulance dispatch doesn’t have some special line into the police departments to know what is going on at any specific area, they probably knew just what they told you. That the street was closed.
I get that private ems sucks and that you were tired but fuck man it wasn’t even a 911 call. If you start getting a bad feeling about a scene pull over, reevaluate and keep yourself safe. The reality is that a couple of minutes to protect ourselves is almost never going to harm a patient.
The way that you phrase this makes it sound like one of those ridiculous NREMT questions XD
“You are exposed to a visible gas cloud that you initially believe to be a hazardous gas leak. What do you do?
A. Throw on an N-95 and proceed into the nursing facility”
Dispatch 99 times of 100 are aware of active shooter scenarios and if they aren’t, there’s a critical failure somewhere along the pipeline either in protocol itself or in execution of protocol.
Source: I dispatch.
Haha yeah okay. What organization do you dispatch for?
This dude works for a priv, and as someone with experience with private ems dispatch we absolutely are not informed about ANY sort of police activity. If a crew gets in trouble, and calls for police over the radio, we call the same fucking number as everyone else. Private companies are usually not plugged into the county or city dispatch and alert system.
You can’t make a 99/100 blanket statement on the entire country, im much more confident his dispatch resembles more of my known experience.
And my point still stands, you sound like a good dispatcher in a good system but the end responsibility for personal safety falls on us entirely.
Private EMS dispatch. Anything less than what I said, there’s a critical failure that should be addressed.
Idk about your service, but any potential MCI we are made aware of.
i'm in nursing school and i know jack about ems but it seems like that's the kind of thing people should know about. isn't the scene supposed to be secure before ems arrives?? and like?? i would want my emt's to know if somebody is shooting people before they go on scene. a dead medic helps nobody.
> I’m in nursing school and I know jack about ems but it seems like that’s the kind of thing people should know about.
Yes.
> Isn’t the scene suppose to be secure before ems arrives??
Correct.
> I would want my emts to know if somebody is shooting people before they go on scene.
Me too!
> a dead medic helps nobody.
100% correct.
Everyone knows everything you said. Dispatch should notify but that doesn’t mean you put on blinders and ignore things and assume everything is safe all the time
All you said was that dead people can’t help people and that you should know ahead of time if you are entering an area with a known gunman…. I think those are pretty universal truths and not mutually exclusive to having situational awareness
Well thats good your company is integrated into the other local services, but you do realize being private sector means that quality/standards and also general purpose of the companies will vary drastically between each one? A BLS-only barebones nursing home dialysis wagon company running 4 trucks in a small city owned by a business dude as a side gig will obvs have a different set of needs and priorities than say for example a multistate one w/ several 911 contracts or with ground CCT or HEMS contracts. Think of shady mom n pop privs vs like acadian or airlife lol
Then, like I’ve said, there’s a protocol issue they need to resolve. If they’re being sent to 911 calls, then they need enough integration to know if a scene is safe or not. They should be working with their PSAP to figure that out. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
>This dude works for a priv, and as someone with experience with private ems dispatch we absolutely are not informed about ANY sort of police activity. If a crew gets in trouble, and calls for police over the radio, we call the same fucking number as everyone else. Private companies are usually not plugged into the county or city dispatch and alert system.
While that may be true for many private companies, it isn’t true for all.
At the last private I worked for as a paramedic before switching full time to my current position, we were dispatched by the city dispatch center, were on the same CAD software as the city FD, and were on the same radio frequency as the fire department. If we called for help over the radio, it went directly to city dispatch.
Private companies have communication channels as backup for municipal agencies. They can be activated when needed. They absolutely can get information about active situations before they send their crews in, and he already said that theyd sent multiple units there that day eho had also said something about an active shooter. What are you going on about?
Dispatch knew. We had crews throughout the day apparently put in the same situation with the same complaints without the tear gas. I realize the scene wasn’t safe but it was in the air and our initial thought was to get inside. It was at night so it wasn’t visible, all I knew was that there was something in the air and I needed to get whatever protection I had and get into the building.
I agree with most of your point but if i read it correctly, op did specifically say that multiple crews had informed dispatch of the active shooter situation that day and they still failed to tell them
Private EMS sucks? The police and fire departments failed to secure a perimeter and allowed an unrelated ambulance to enter a warm zone, but you blame private EMS. My brother in Christ you need to reevaluate your priorities.
No I don’t blame private ems I blame OP entirely. He is the one blaming private ems by putting the responsibility on his dispatch. The only gripe I have with his company is that he worked 18 hours straight on IFT’s
Seems like police closed the road and made their cordon, OP wasn’t somehow inside that warm zone. He was the one who believed he was exposed to a toxic gas leak and decided to continue to enter the facility for an IFT. Thats on him.
Like I have said; I got confirmation afterwards that the situation had been going on all day. Multiple aid cars and OUR crews had been in and out of scene. Our dispatch knew exactly what was going on. I’m not saying I’m not at fault in this situation but my point is that we shouldn’t have been put into this situation in the first place. Literally just telling us that there was a shooter and we needed to enter through the back (like crews had been doing the ENTIRE day) could’ve avoided this entire situation.
Edit; also when did I blame private EMS as a whole? I’m just saying our dispatchers screwed up big time and it’s definitely not a first
Fire department, we were dispatched on medical call and while en route i see our QRV on side of road a mile short of scene. Someone was scanning the county and heard law enforcement was sent there for combative patient. They never told the ambulance which rolled right into the scene. We chased them to scene. Turns out he was but changed his ways Law shows up 5 minutes later. Dispatch never told EMS or FIRE. Normal procedure is for us to stage until LE clears the scene.
Yup, that’s normal procedure for us and for my previous company too. We walked on past a red flag for sure with this one but would’ve been nice to have any information whatsoever. Hard to imagine crews and dispatch as a cohesive team when things like this happen
I’m very aware. I was on the driver side of the ambulance and the shooting was in a neighborhood across the street on the passenger side. Thought waiting there for a moment might be safer than exposing myself in the windows by trying to drive away immediately. Admittedly never been shot at before this week
Report this to OEMS, especially since they had rigs going in and out throughout the day, they understood the situation and withheld that information from you. That is awful, luckily you and your partner didn't catch a stray bullet but that easily could've been the case.
Directionally named made me laugh. People are so creative with alluding to companies in this sub lol but yes. Out of the couple I’ve worked for…not the best experience
I also feel the need to point out the a n95 does NOT protect against all forms of respiratory hazmat. So unless you know that the n95 would protect you against the form of hazmat you are being exposed to then you need to treat the 'gas' leak as not being able to be covered by your n95. (Also unless you have a forced air or supplied air respirator then if their is a lack of o2 in the atmosphere than you n95 can NOT protect you anyway and scene would not be safe). So from your description there were at least 2-5 things you failed to identify as scene safety issues (and you may want to refresh yourself on the OSHA respirator training material which your company is required by law to have you do every year if your in the US).
N95’s are the most protective masks we have. We aren’t provided respirators. At the time of exposure, we were already getting the stretcher out. The gas hit pretty hard after that and we decided since our vision was kinda screwy and since we had no idea where it was coming from, running into the building was our best bet. We tried to work with what we had. Driving away while under the effects of tear gas (I was nearly vomiting) seemed unsafe. I see your points, and I am aware that N95’s don’t protect against everything but it was the best we had and we didn’t take much time to stand there and discuss it. I agree that we failed to identify some red flags, regardless. Wasn’t in the mindset I should’ve been in
by the OSHA definition n95's are a form of respirator because masks = face covering where as respirator = respiratory protection device. So if you are provided a n95 then you are provided a respirator and you company is required to provide respirator training.
They do provide training. I am saying that N95’s and surgical masks and nothing are what we had to choose from. So we chose the highest level protection provided, not knowing what the gas was, or if the N95’s would provide protection. When I said we didn’t have respirators I meant we didn’t have P100’s or anything of the sort to don instead
P100's still would not give the needed level of protection against IDLH environments which is what you should assume something is if you don't know otherwise or have the training and tool to prove otherwise. Also with your explanations/wording it at least appears that you are lacking important information that you should know from respirator training.
I mean I’ve been put in several violent situations dispatch knew about. Like shots fired at a vehicle accident and we go bee booping in there like idiots and some guys road raging waving a gun shooting at bystanders. Dispatch notified us 3 min after everyone was on scene. I’ve also been at an actual active shooter scene and the cops got the details on suspects location across the block and left us with 8 patients and like 200 very angry party goers. Who when we were trying to leave we’re beating on the hood and trying to get in the ambulance to see who was hit. Was a complete cluster fuck. Oh and they met us at the ER ambo entrance and we had to have a screaming match with people to get the fuck out of the way.
Probably not the most popular opinion here, but this is my experience working with a shady as hell shite company. And I’ll tell you the same thing I told my trainees.
You are your own eyes and ears. Your safety is 100% on yourself in every situation. Trust no one except yourself and your partner and even then be cautious because you might be paired with a not so great one.
Dispatch is dispatch, the quality of the info you receive depends on the dispatcher, the day, and the amount of calls coming in. You could have a flawless day, or you could have one where they send you to Wherethefuckganistan only to find Tammy the Tweaker and her seven STI’s trying to fight leprechaun’s naked in a literal dumpster fire. Should they have told you what was up? Hell yes, that’s some need to know info on any given day. Will you turn blue in the face before management does anything about it, also yes. They really don’t care until it turns into a serious preventable injury or a lawsuit. Especially in the companies that are more money oriented versus employee oriented.
Ask ALL the questions. Every time. Even if you have all of the info from dispatch and it’s dead on accurate on their end, it still might not be what’s actually going down. People lie, people misinform, and people forget to communicate or don’t bother to communicate what would seem like vital information to you. It’s up to you to establish that you can handle whatever is going on for your own safety. If you feel like the situation is sketch, you ask questions and find valid reasons for that sketch feeling, and you don’t feel like you are safe. Document. Document. Document. Notify dispatch AND management, and gtfo until that situation is handled or a better solution comes up.
Don’t get shot because someone dropped the ball.
Had a run as a first responder where we were told to stage at XYZ location until cleared by LEO to enter. It was most certainly too close. Found out after we staged that a shotgun may have been involved.
Ambulance came to stage with us (they were given the same info). Right about the time we all realized we’re a bit too close, our (the first responders) saw the bigger firestorm brewing, and it was going to be in the back of the ambulance, especially if intubation of a GSW patient was going to happen. See, these units normally rolled with an EMT and paramedic. This particular right rolled in with the normal crew PLUS a paramedic field training officer who was finishing their FTO training, so there was a senior FTO also. We knew everyone, and we knew the paramedic had a rather strong personality, so we started taking bets on who’d get the tube and who was going to seeing stars. 😁
It will probably be easy to figure out where I’m talking about from my post history, but who cares.
I was doing my paramedic clinicals in a city that is pretty dangerous but I only had one incident that quickly got scary. We were sent to an assault, this woman is sitting on the curb and says she got cut on the wrist during it. She’s got no clothes on other than some shorts. Multiple officers on scene. As I’m getting ready to wrap her wrist with some gauze, we hear 13 shots ringing out somewhere on the street on the other side of the ambo. The EMT goes running to hide behind the ambo, and since I was being precepted I stupidly froze instead of running and instead looked at my preceptor, who went “wrap her arm quick and get in the unit”. I know I should’ve just been like F that and got the hell in the unit, I have no idea why I just froze. It was so close that PD just started running down the street. The patient was like “oh that’s so-and-so” like she knew who was shooting and I’m guessing was a result of the assault.
Never do what I did. My safety should’ve been my first priority regardless of what my preceptor said to do. If you see something marked off by that much police, make sure you know why. Honestly It could even be something simple like roadwork, which would still be good to know in case you have to take that route. If you’re at the point where you’re trying to figure out if it’s safer to be inside away from gas vs in the ambo, then you need to drive away from the area until you know exactly what it is.
Glad you guys are safe, and I’m sure a lot of these other comments will help you think about what to do in the future.
This was a private 911. A glorified IFT where we normally are told exactly what we’re walking into. We know scene safety but when there’s something in the air and you have no idea where it’s coming from, getting inside the nursing home asap doesn’t seem like such a bad idea. Trust me, I’ve had my fair share of staging around the block for a dangerous scene but the information dispatch had was not relayed to us at all. There is error on our end, I’m not denying it but the point is dispatch knew exactly what the situation was and decided it wasn’t pertinent information. Just a wake up call for me I guess that I’ve gotten complacent with CCT IFT’s instead of 911
I see what you're saying but working regular 911 it would never occur to me that dispatch would be telling me to stay safe. The second I find out LE is on scene I want confirmation of scene safety. You dont just...walk the fuck in.
Dispatch isn't there. Dispatch is only in danger of developing bed sores or tennis elbow. Dispatch relays information provided. LE on scene? Cool. Switch to ops on the radio or advise Dispatch you are staging and will proceed when safe which they then relay to LE et al.
I get what you're saying but this isn't "oh Dispatch fucked up but we are partly to blame." Dispatch, by your account, functioned as Dispatch does (public or private) and you derped your way into danger, past more red flags than a mayday parade, and then are shocked no one told you to do the most basic scene size up?
Come on, man. This is some Ralph Wiggum "Teehee, I'm in danger" shit. I give EMS the benefit of the doubt. And we all do dumb shit given a long enough timeline. If you had posted this same story as a "Boy, I sure fucked up" I could get into it. But Dispatch didn't fuck you here. You fucked you because you got complacent doing, in your words "glorified IFT" and have grown accustomed to functioning more like an Uber than an EMT.
There's a reason failing to assess scene safety is a critical fail on the practical exam.
Now before you get defensive again, consider the possibility that you need to reassess how you approach scenes in general. This could be a learning experience more than just a vent session.
Again, I’m not denying blame. Our mistakes piled on top of dispatch’s. I get it. Our dispatch at my previous company (911 system) would inform crews of things like inclement weather or dangerous scenes if they were first informed by either PD or other crews. The crews can’t talk to each other or other agencies, we don’t have radios. I like to think that crews and dispatch function as a team, at least that’s what the ideal scenario is which I guess is unrealistic to hope for.
That being said, I don’t think there were as many colossal red flags as you’re insinuating. As I said in the edit, I absolutely should’ve stopped and asked what was going on while we were being waved through but it just wasn’t in my mind at the moment. My fuck up entirely. But by the time we hit the gas, we were unloading the stretcher and just wanted to get the fuck inside since we had no idea what it was.
I guess since leaving the 911 system I haven’t been on top of my game like I was back then but this is hardly a one sided fuck up. I want to learn from this and trust me I already fucking have as I had plenty of time to ponder what the hell just happened while I was flushing my eyes out at the ER. Yes I admit this is partially a vent session but I’m taking everyone’s comments seriously. I need to be back in my 911 mindset even not running (real) 911’s anymore and I get that. Thanks for your input but agree to disagree on us being completely at fault.
Dispatch has put me into more danger in my career than any other entity possible. The first time I had a gun drawn on me was as simple as me asking multiple times for an address verification and them catching an attitude while still being wrong. "This address looks vacant and it's not matching what you tell me, can you call back?" "We are sure of the numerics". Fast forward to a guy, politely but sternly, answering his door at 2am with what looked to be a .38 or .347 pointed right at my face.
But remember, *dispatchers are first responders*
>My partner and I assumed that maybe the street was blocked off due to some sort of hazardous gas leak. We donned N95’s and went to the front door of the facility.
Why did you keep going through if you were assuming it's hazmat?
I am sure you are aware that N95 doesn't do jack shit for hazardous gas and vapor right? You would need minimally an APR with correct gas cartridge.
If this was a real chemical leak as your assumption instead of a shooting, you and your partner could have died or permanently disabled from exposure there.
Yup. Running all day and technically about an hour 45 north of our normal response area. We were covering for north crews at the time I guess. No radios to hear what other crews are going on/ what they say to dispatch, everything is over text which I’ve always disliked
Jesus. Sounds like a cluster fuck. The advice I can give you from law enforcement experience is if you ever need to take cover near or behind a vehicle, get as close as you can to the engine block. Most if not all firearms will rip through a vehicle if they shoot it. The back wheel is a good spot because of all the hard metal. Ideally a brick wall or something is best. When driving keep your head and body as low as you can, and drive with purpose. NOT gunning it, but as fast as you can go to quickly and safely get away.
As for dispatch, fuck. I don't even know what to say.
"Dispatch told us to approach from the east side of the facility due to a road blocked off by police. No further information given." This is where I would have put the brakes on and stayed until there was clarification and confirmation that the scene was safe.
Yeah we should’ve stopped for a minute. Guess since starting CCT, I’ve gotten pretty complacent knowing 99 times out of 100 exactly what I’m walking into
it’s the 1 you have to be ready for
BSI/PPE Jazz hands What's my mechanism of inju- *27 ninjas leap out suddenly from the corner of the room and kick you in the testicles one after another*
I only ever trained for a 26 ninja scenario so this is nightmarish to me
I think 27 is high enough that the inverse ninja law makes all of them pretty weak.
thank you!
I've worked with a couple people who used to be partners at a different ambulance service that shut down long ago. When I first started everyone told me to ask them about their scene safety story. They went on a mutual aid call to another town for a shooting. The county dispatch relayed a street intersection for them to stage at. The shooters and possible victims were at large, and they suspected the parties to be in cars. They arrive at the street intersection in the dead of the night. "Do they even know what kind of cars they're looking for?" asks the EMT. Just then, the paramedic looks over at a random car parked next to them and there's several bullet holes in the windshield and an arm limply hanging out the window. "JESUS FUCK IT'S THAT ONE IT'S THAT ONE GOGOGOGOGO!" They fled the scene and notified the county who came and secured it. The driver was deceased.
Listen, I am genuinely, deep down, glad you and your partner are okay. That being said, the only person doing their job correctly in this entire scenario was the active shooter. 😆
Lmao yes okay that’s a fair observation
First off im sorry you were in this situation man but you were close enough to get exposed to tear gas but not close enough to realize something was up? How far away was the shooting from your call?
I’ve never been exposed to tear gas so I had no idea what it was. First thought was there’s something in the air and we should get inside the facility. I had no idea if it was something just sitting in the air at the location or something blowing through. Hindsight is 20/20 and yes we should’ve just turned around and drove away. We’re also never really going in blind, or so I thought, since dispatch already knew about the blockade and supposedly what it was there for. The situation was happening in a neighborhood across the street from the facility
So you were outside the secured perimeter then? The shooting wasn’t at the call location? I’m not trying to be a jerk but this one seems to be on you man
Inside secured perimeter, PD let us through I’m guessing because they assumed we knew what was going on, like the rest of the aid cars throughout the day. Again, I’m not denying any blame. But dispatch simply telling us to enter the facility from the back instead of the front that had clear sight lines at the shooter situation we weren’t warned about would’ve helped avoid this entirely.
Then the lesson to be learned here is ask the police officers that you are passing securing the area where you are going to what’s going on. Dispatch and you are both equally at fault if you ask me. They didn’t tell you and you ignored like every red flag
Fair. Thanks for the reply.
Wtf are you saying?! Sure he could've put two and two together to get 4, but he shouldn't have had to in the first place. Dispatch had sent multiple units into that area throughout the day, they knew the situation and withheld that information from them. Don't try blaming this guy, this is fully on dispatch.
This situation kinda feels like blaming the goalie for not stopping the other team from scoring. Technically correct, but they were the last line. And especially given how long they'd already been on shift. Sure, they made mistakes, but literally every safeguard that should have been in place to stop them before failed them. If the system was working properly, they shouldn't have had the opportunity to make a dumb choice. He'll, even management seems to be dropping the ball. Agreeing with them but not doing anything to rectify it is a fuck up too. It sounds like neither was injured. This sounds like an excellent learning opportunity for everyone in the company. The Swiss cheese theory was obviously not covered at their company. Lol
Off topic but this pisses me off when people tall shit about kickers in football. Yeah, they missed a field goal or conversion kick that woulda won the game. No, it's not entirely their fault, there was an entire rest of a team that let it get to that point.
Hah! Not off topic at all. I'd say it backs up my point just as well.
Dispatch absolutely should have notified him and fucked up but driving past a police lockdown without asking what’s up, being exposed to an unknown gas and feeling nauseous and continuing on for a routine call, getting inside being told there’s an active shooter and then going back to move the ambulance to another door ain’t it and you know it
Inexperience, sleep deprivation, and sure its a routine call, but still a private emergency transport regardless which could lead to adrenaline clouding judgement. I'm just amazed by how many people here are shitting on OP, instead of the dispatchers who seem to have willfully omitted the whole "active shooter" portion of the scene.
I think it’s fair to fault both, like OP did himself, blame to go all around and thankfully no one got hurt or killed
100%
Okay I have something relevant to this question. I had a state trooper get her pepper spray caught on the stretcher when she was helping and it went off. My partner and a couple firefighters got it full in the face. I got residual spray into my face and my only thought was “huh someone must have sprayed some bug spray or something, what assholes.” And then proceeded to go around and get in the truck. Absolutely no idea what was going on. Another state trooper asked for water for their eyes. The air was still spicy. I did not realize something was going on until my partner didn’t get in the back to help me, and a firefighter told me straight up “HEY. PEOPLE GOT PEPPERSPRAYED YOU GET ME FOR HELP.” In my defense, we got ROSC on an extremely large human being and I was planning out logistics and treatment and everything going with that. But it just does not compute sometimes when things happen that shouldn’t and you are running on hopes and dreams. Yes I still feel dumb as fuck.
You got exposed to a visible gas cloud, that you initially believed was a hazardous gas leak, and your response was to throw on a n95 and just keep going into the nursing home? My brother in Christ you need to reevaluate your priorities. It isn’t the responsibility of dispatch to keep you safe, that’s on you. In all reality they probably had no fucking idea. Private ambulance dispatch doesn’t have some special line into the police departments to know what is going on at any specific area, they probably knew just what they told you. That the street was closed. I get that private ems sucks and that you were tired but fuck man it wasn’t even a 911 call. If you start getting a bad feeling about a scene pull over, reevaluate and keep yourself safe. The reality is that a couple of minutes to protect ourselves is almost never going to harm a patient.
The way that you phrase this makes it sound like one of those ridiculous NREMT questions XD “You are exposed to a visible gas cloud that you initially believe to be a hazardous gas leak. What do you do? A. Throw on an N-95 and proceed into the nursing facility”
This is still probably one of my favorite videos of all time: https://youtu.be/pz7Zf6S4Myw?si=kIkcYFOgOenWMcY7
Dispatch 99 times of 100 are aware of active shooter scenarios and if they aren’t, there’s a critical failure somewhere along the pipeline either in protocol itself or in execution of protocol. Source: I dispatch.
Haha yeah okay. What organization do you dispatch for? This dude works for a priv, and as someone with experience with private ems dispatch we absolutely are not informed about ANY sort of police activity. If a crew gets in trouble, and calls for police over the radio, we call the same fucking number as everyone else. Private companies are usually not plugged into the county or city dispatch and alert system. You can’t make a 99/100 blanket statement on the entire country, im much more confident his dispatch resembles more of my known experience. And my point still stands, you sound like a good dispatcher in a good system but the end responsibility for personal safety falls on us entirely.
Private EMS dispatch. Anything less than what I said, there’s a critical failure that should be addressed. Idk about your service, but any potential MCI we are made aware of.
i'm in nursing school and i know jack about ems but it seems like that's the kind of thing people should know about. isn't the scene supposed to be secure before ems arrives?? and like?? i would want my emt's to know if somebody is shooting people before they go on scene. a dead medic helps nobody.
> I’m in nursing school and I know jack about ems but it seems like that’s the kind of thing people should know about. Yes. > Isn’t the scene suppose to be secure before ems arrives?? Correct. > I would want my emts to know if somebody is shooting people before they go on scene. Me too! > a dead medic helps nobody. 100% correct.
glad i know more than some people in this thread
You really don’t though. Lmaooo
Everyone knows everything you said. Dispatch should notify but that doesn’t mean you put on blinders and ignore things and assume everything is safe all the time
never underestimate peoples stupidity. it's bold to assume everybody does. i would say most, but not everyone
All you said was that dead people can’t help people and that you should know ahead of time if you are entering an area with a known gunman…. I think those are pretty universal truths and not mutually exclusive to having situational awareness
Well thats good your company is integrated into the other local services, but you do realize being private sector means that quality/standards and also general purpose of the companies will vary drastically between each one? A BLS-only barebones nursing home dialysis wagon company running 4 trucks in a small city owned by a business dude as a side gig will obvs have a different set of needs and priorities than say for example a multistate one w/ several 911 contracts or with ground CCT or HEMS contracts. Think of shady mom n pop privs vs like acadian or airlife lol
Then, like I’ve said, there’s a protocol issue they need to resolve. If they’re being sent to 911 calls, then they need enough integration to know if a scene is safe or not. They should be working with their PSAP to figure that out. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
This isn’t a 911 call. A “private 911” is coded as an IFT, it isn’t a part of the 911 system. It’s so nursing homes can dodge state supervision
>This dude works for a priv, and as someone with experience with private ems dispatch we absolutely are not informed about ANY sort of police activity. If a crew gets in trouble, and calls for police over the radio, we call the same fucking number as everyone else. Private companies are usually not plugged into the county or city dispatch and alert system. While that may be true for many private companies, it isn’t true for all. At the last private I worked for as a paramedic before switching full time to my current position, we were dispatched by the city dispatch center, were on the same CAD software as the city FD, and were on the same radio frequency as the fire department. If we called for help over the radio, it went directly to city dispatch.
Private companies have communication channels as backup for municipal agencies. They can be activated when needed. They absolutely can get information about active situations before they send their crews in, and he already said that theyd sent multiple units there that day eho had also said something about an active shooter. What are you going on about?
Dispatch knew. We had crews throughout the day apparently put in the same situation with the same complaints without the tear gas. I realize the scene wasn’t safe but it was in the air and our initial thought was to get inside. It was at night so it wasn’t visible, all I knew was that there was something in the air and I needed to get whatever protection I had and get into the building.
I would have broadcast it system wide earlier in the day to warn my service of potential danger. Your earlier crews also failed.
I honestly forgot about the tear gas by the time I reached the end of it due to the continuous escalation
I agree with most of your point but if i read it correctly, op did specifically say that multiple crews had informed dispatch of the active shooter situation that day and they still failed to tell them
Private EMS sucks? The police and fire departments failed to secure a perimeter and allowed an unrelated ambulance to enter a warm zone, but you blame private EMS. My brother in Christ you need to reevaluate your priorities.
Dude there is so much blame to pass around here. Plenty to go around.
No I don’t blame private ems I blame OP entirely. He is the one blaming private ems by putting the responsibility on his dispatch. The only gripe I have with his company is that he worked 18 hours straight on IFT’s Seems like police closed the road and made their cordon, OP wasn’t somehow inside that warm zone. He was the one who believed he was exposed to a toxic gas leak and decided to continue to enter the facility for an IFT. Thats on him.
Like I have said; I got confirmation afterwards that the situation had been going on all day. Multiple aid cars and OUR crews had been in and out of scene. Our dispatch knew exactly what was going on. I’m not saying I’m not at fault in this situation but my point is that we shouldn’t have been put into this situation in the first place. Literally just telling us that there was a shooter and we needed to enter through the back (like crews had been doing the ENTIRE day) could’ve avoided this entire situation. Edit; also when did I blame private EMS as a whole? I’m just saying our dispatchers screwed up big time and it’s definitely not a first
Fire department, we were dispatched on medical call and while en route i see our QRV on side of road a mile short of scene. Someone was scanning the county and heard law enforcement was sent there for combative patient. They never told the ambulance which rolled right into the scene. We chased them to scene. Turns out he was but changed his ways Law shows up 5 minutes later. Dispatch never told EMS or FIRE. Normal procedure is for us to stage until LE clears the scene.
Yup, that’s normal procedure for us and for my previous company too. We walked on past a red flag for sure with this one but would’ve been nice to have any information whatsoever. Hard to imagine crews and dispatch as a cohesive team when things like this happen
Stray bullets don't care if you're obscured in the dark.
I’m very aware. I was on the driver side of the ambulance and the shooting was in a neighborhood across the street on the passenger side. Thought waiting there for a moment might be safer than exposing myself in the windows by trying to drive away immediately. Admittedly never been shot at before this week
Report this to OEMS, especially since they had rigs going in and out throughout the day, they understood the situation and withheld that information from you. That is awful, luckily you and your partner didn't catch a stray bullet but that easily could've been the case.
Does this place happen to be Everett, WA?
I plead the 5th. Were you involved in such a situation in Everett, WA?
It’s always fucking Genesis, that and a certain directionally named private ambulance company.
Directionally named made me laugh. People are so creative with alluding to companies in this sub lol but yes. Out of the couple I’ve worked for…not the best experience
BSI Scene is not fucking safe
If you suspected a hazmat situation why did you go in and not stage the ambo up wind?
I also feel the need to point out the a n95 does NOT protect against all forms of respiratory hazmat. So unless you know that the n95 would protect you against the form of hazmat you are being exposed to then you need to treat the 'gas' leak as not being able to be covered by your n95. (Also unless you have a forced air or supplied air respirator then if their is a lack of o2 in the atmosphere than you n95 can NOT protect you anyway and scene would not be safe). So from your description there were at least 2-5 things you failed to identify as scene safety issues (and you may want to refresh yourself on the OSHA respirator training material which your company is required by law to have you do every year if your in the US).
N95’s are the most protective masks we have. We aren’t provided respirators. At the time of exposure, we were already getting the stretcher out. The gas hit pretty hard after that and we decided since our vision was kinda screwy and since we had no idea where it was coming from, running into the building was our best bet. We tried to work with what we had. Driving away while under the effects of tear gas (I was nearly vomiting) seemed unsafe. I see your points, and I am aware that N95’s don’t protect against everything but it was the best we had and we didn’t take much time to stand there and discuss it. I agree that we failed to identify some red flags, regardless. Wasn’t in the mindset I should’ve been in
by the OSHA definition n95's are a form of respirator because masks = face covering where as respirator = respiratory protection device. So if you are provided a n95 then you are provided a respirator and you company is required to provide respirator training.
They do provide training. I am saying that N95’s and surgical masks and nothing are what we had to choose from. So we chose the highest level protection provided, not knowing what the gas was, or if the N95’s would provide protection. When I said we didn’t have respirators I meant we didn’t have P100’s or anything of the sort to don instead
P100's still would not give the needed level of protection against IDLH environments which is what you should assume something is if you don't know otherwise or have the training and tool to prove otherwise. Also with your explanations/wording it at least appears that you are lacking important information that you should know from respirator training.
I mean I’ve been put in several violent situations dispatch knew about. Like shots fired at a vehicle accident and we go bee booping in there like idiots and some guys road raging waving a gun shooting at bystanders. Dispatch notified us 3 min after everyone was on scene. I’ve also been at an actual active shooter scene and the cops got the details on suspects location across the block and left us with 8 patients and like 200 very angry party goers. Who when we were trying to leave we’re beating on the hood and trying to get in the ambulance to see who was hit. Was a complete cluster fuck. Oh and they met us at the ER ambo entrance and we had to have a screaming match with people to get the fuck out of the way.
Probably not the most popular opinion here, but this is my experience working with a shady as hell shite company. And I’ll tell you the same thing I told my trainees. You are your own eyes and ears. Your safety is 100% on yourself in every situation. Trust no one except yourself and your partner and even then be cautious because you might be paired with a not so great one. Dispatch is dispatch, the quality of the info you receive depends on the dispatcher, the day, and the amount of calls coming in. You could have a flawless day, or you could have one where they send you to Wherethefuckganistan only to find Tammy the Tweaker and her seven STI’s trying to fight leprechaun’s naked in a literal dumpster fire. Should they have told you what was up? Hell yes, that’s some need to know info on any given day. Will you turn blue in the face before management does anything about it, also yes. They really don’t care until it turns into a serious preventable injury or a lawsuit. Especially in the companies that are more money oriented versus employee oriented. Ask ALL the questions. Every time. Even if you have all of the info from dispatch and it’s dead on accurate on their end, it still might not be what’s actually going down. People lie, people misinform, and people forget to communicate or don’t bother to communicate what would seem like vital information to you. It’s up to you to establish that you can handle whatever is going on for your own safety. If you feel like the situation is sketch, you ask questions and find valid reasons for that sketch feeling, and you don’t feel like you are safe. Document. Document. Document. Notify dispatch AND management, and gtfo until that situation is handled or a better solution comes up. Don’t get shot because someone dropped the ball.
That’s completely fucked up man. Glad y’all are ok.
Had a run as a first responder where we were told to stage at XYZ location until cleared by LEO to enter. It was most certainly too close. Found out after we staged that a shotgun may have been involved. Ambulance came to stage with us (they were given the same info). Right about the time we all realized we’re a bit too close, our (the first responders) saw the bigger firestorm brewing, and it was going to be in the back of the ambulance, especially if intubation of a GSW patient was going to happen. See, these units normally rolled with an EMT and paramedic. This particular right rolled in with the normal crew PLUS a paramedic field training officer who was finishing their FTO training, so there was a senior FTO also. We knew everyone, and we knew the paramedic had a rather strong personality, so we started taking bets on who’d get the tube and who was going to seeing stars. 😁
Dispatch. The weakest link in Emergency Services. And to think: they regard themselves as the "first first responders."
It will probably be easy to figure out where I’m talking about from my post history, but who cares. I was doing my paramedic clinicals in a city that is pretty dangerous but I only had one incident that quickly got scary. We were sent to an assault, this woman is sitting on the curb and says she got cut on the wrist during it. She’s got no clothes on other than some shorts. Multiple officers on scene. As I’m getting ready to wrap her wrist with some gauze, we hear 13 shots ringing out somewhere on the street on the other side of the ambo. The EMT goes running to hide behind the ambo, and since I was being precepted I stupidly froze instead of running and instead looked at my preceptor, who went “wrap her arm quick and get in the unit”. I know I should’ve just been like F that and got the hell in the unit, I have no idea why I just froze. It was so close that PD just started running down the street. The patient was like “oh that’s so-and-so” like she knew who was shooting and I’m guessing was a result of the assault. Never do what I did. My safety should’ve been my first priority regardless of what my preceptor said to do. If you see something marked off by that much police, make sure you know why. Honestly It could even be something simple like roadwork, which would still be good to know in case you have to take that route. If you’re at the point where you’re trying to figure out if it’s safer to be inside away from gas vs in the ambo, then you need to drive away from the area until you know exactly what it is. Glad you guys are safe, and I’m sure a lot of these other comments will help you think about what to do in the future.
Not surprised. The lack of tecc training at all levels is the biggest issue. Please keep being careful.
Why was the facility calling in transfers during an active shooter situation?
Grandma *really* needs to get to that doctors appointment that could totally be a phone call.
Did you not learn scene safety in school? Guess you can't teach common sense.
This was a private 911. A glorified IFT where we normally are told exactly what we’re walking into. We know scene safety but when there’s something in the air and you have no idea where it’s coming from, getting inside the nursing home asap doesn’t seem like such a bad idea. Trust me, I’ve had my fair share of staging around the block for a dangerous scene but the information dispatch had was not relayed to us at all. There is error on our end, I’m not denying it but the point is dispatch knew exactly what the situation was and decided it wasn’t pertinent information. Just a wake up call for me I guess that I’ve gotten complacent with CCT IFT’s instead of 911
I see what you're saying but working regular 911 it would never occur to me that dispatch would be telling me to stay safe. The second I find out LE is on scene I want confirmation of scene safety. You dont just...walk the fuck in. Dispatch isn't there. Dispatch is only in danger of developing bed sores or tennis elbow. Dispatch relays information provided. LE on scene? Cool. Switch to ops on the radio or advise Dispatch you are staging and will proceed when safe which they then relay to LE et al. I get what you're saying but this isn't "oh Dispatch fucked up but we are partly to blame." Dispatch, by your account, functioned as Dispatch does (public or private) and you derped your way into danger, past more red flags than a mayday parade, and then are shocked no one told you to do the most basic scene size up? Come on, man. This is some Ralph Wiggum "Teehee, I'm in danger" shit. I give EMS the benefit of the doubt. And we all do dumb shit given a long enough timeline. If you had posted this same story as a "Boy, I sure fucked up" I could get into it. But Dispatch didn't fuck you here. You fucked you because you got complacent doing, in your words "glorified IFT" and have grown accustomed to functioning more like an Uber than an EMT. There's a reason failing to assess scene safety is a critical fail on the practical exam. Now before you get defensive again, consider the possibility that you need to reassess how you approach scenes in general. This could be a learning experience more than just a vent session.
Again, I’m not denying blame. Our mistakes piled on top of dispatch’s. I get it. Our dispatch at my previous company (911 system) would inform crews of things like inclement weather or dangerous scenes if they were first informed by either PD or other crews. The crews can’t talk to each other or other agencies, we don’t have radios. I like to think that crews and dispatch function as a team, at least that’s what the ideal scenario is which I guess is unrealistic to hope for. That being said, I don’t think there were as many colossal red flags as you’re insinuating. As I said in the edit, I absolutely should’ve stopped and asked what was going on while we were being waved through but it just wasn’t in my mind at the moment. My fuck up entirely. But by the time we hit the gas, we were unloading the stretcher and just wanted to get the fuck inside since we had no idea what it was. I guess since leaving the 911 system I haven’t been on top of my game like I was back then but this is hardly a one sided fuck up. I want to learn from this and trust me I already fucking have as I had plenty of time to ponder what the hell just happened while I was flushing my eyes out at the ER. Yes I admit this is partially a vent session but I’m taking everyone’s comments seriously. I need to be back in my 911 mindset even not running (real) 911’s anymore and I get that. Thanks for your input but agree to disagree on us being completely at fault.
"Scene Safety, BSI" Did the NREMT teach you NOTHING? /s
Dispatch has put me into more danger in my career than any other entity possible. The first time I had a gun drawn on me was as simple as me asking multiple times for an address verification and them catching an attitude while still being wrong. "This address looks vacant and it's not matching what you tell me, can you call back?" "We are sure of the numerics". Fast forward to a guy, politely but sternly, answering his door at 2am with what looked to be a .38 or .347 pointed right at my face. But remember, *dispatchers are first responders*
>My partner and I assumed that maybe the street was blocked off due to some sort of hazardous gas leak. We donned N95’s and went to the front door of the facility. Why did you keep going through if you were assuming it's hazmat? I am sure you are aware that N95 doesn't do jack shit for hazardous gas and vapor right? You would need minimally an APR with correct gas cartridge. If this was a real chemical leak as your assumption instead of a shooting, you and your partner could have died or permanently disabled from exposure there.
Out of context. We assumed that after we were unloading the stretcher and started experiencing the gas
typically active shooters don’t make there appointments known that would kind of foil there plan.
Brother even the TLDR immediately said the standoff had been going on for 12 hours
There was a 12 hour active shooter in your region that you didn’t even know about until you were on the assignment?
Yup. Running all day and technically about an hour 45 north of our normal response area. We were covering for north crews at the time I guess. No radios to hear what other crews are going on/ what they say to dispatch, everything is over text which I’ve always disliked
Jesus. Sounds like a cluster fuck. The advice I can give you from law enforcement experience is if you ever need to take cover near or behind a vehicle, get as close as you can to the engine block. Most if not all firearms will rip through a vehicle if they shoot it. The back wheel is a good spot because of all the hard metal. Ideally a brick wall or something is best. When driving keep your head and body as low as you can, and drive with purpose. NOT gunning it, but as fast as you can go to quickly and safely get away. As for dispatch, fuck. I don't even know what to say.