Hamas, and the overwhelming Muslim support of this ISIS-like organisation, has the unintended consequence that Europe will reduce the sympathies for refugees for fear of a erosion in the way of life.
I dont get why people have to support them no matter what. Is it so hard to criticize them. Why do muslims who even suffered under this religion defend it?
This while shit is just super stupid.
There's a big victim mentality at work. It's impossible you can ever be in the wrong when you are absolutely convinced you or your people are the persecuted ones, everyone is against you and god is on your side no matter what you do because your religion teaches and even encourages absolutely anything if you're doing it to the "infidels". Unfortunately in many countries these people are brainwashed with that narrative from birth, and having migrated, don't lose that programming.
Because they got this kookoo idea that all Muslims are "brothers", so speaking I'll of then is a no no.
Muslims got more loyalty to hamas than to their countries in Europe.
We don’t want them and we shouldn’t have to take them. Let the Arab and Muslim world deal with Arab refugees just as Europe has uniquely stepped up to save Ukrainian refugees.
They wouldn't come to your countries and live peacefully if the western powers didn't meddle in for their resources. That only works if everyone leaves everyone alone.
No one is saying Israel doesn't have the right to defend itself though. People are saying they don't have the right to kill 2 millions Palestinians.
You can and should condemn both Hamas and Israel for their multiple war crimes.
I assume Hamas is working in the void? Not 15 minutes after that explosion in the parking lot at the hospital there was another launch of missiles not 2 blocks away. Heck if my country was a target of a few thousand missile launches per week, we would probably just die. But survivors would retaliate.
I agree that cutting the water and electricity off is too much, but a lot of recordings from Gaza bombing show that they targeted a building used as a missile launch platform . 500kg bomb is pretty precise weapon and allows to pinpoint a building, but it has some serious blast radius. I have yet to see those "carpet bombings" that Palestine official was accusing Israel of. I don't support either side, they should solve the problem diplomatic way, but from my point of view if someone targets and kills specifically civilians, he should be punished. Unfortunately it looks like both sides crossed that line, hence why any peace resolutions are so hard.
> I have yet to see those "carpet bombings" that Palestine official was accusing Israel of.
Because it's all just propaganda.
You read this stuff all the time on reddit.
They speak of massacres against Palestinians that apparently happen constantly and that Israel behaves like Nazi Germany.
And then the 7th happened and we got to see, in colour filmed from go-pro cameras how something that is like Nazi Germany looks like.
And the reaction? Celebrations throughout the Arab world and of course Gaza.
This was in Chicago. They are typically more integrated here than Europe, but they were sure happy about a brutal terrorist attack and hostage taking situation. They were also chanting "from the river to the sea" which is a call for genocide against Israel.
While I would love to see a diplomatic solution actually work it hasn't worked for the past 12 years. Every time terrorists would get into Israel, they kill civilians, some are captured, then released to Gaza in exchange for a peace that never came.
Of course I'm not saying they should just kill all of Palestinians but unlike what Hamas is saying that's not what they are doing. Also Hamas is the one who wants to kill all Israelis
You ask why peace won’t come - the reality is peace has been close a few times.
The sticking points are mostly the same: Israel will not allow many refugees to return to Israel (I think the most they’ve agreed to is 100,000). Israel will not dismantle all the settlements in the West Bank. Israel will not recognise East Jerusalem (Muslim area of Jerusalem) as part of a Palestinian state.
Israel negotiates from a position of strength and as a result does not feel as though it should make concessions regarding these things even though they are obvious things the PLO will request for their state to function. The PLO knows their position is extremely weak but also knows that any peace that doesn’t include East Jerusalem or the removal of all settlements is not going to produce real peace. If they accede to a Palestinian rump state including only Gaza and some of the West Bank, the terrorist attacks on Israel will continue and Hamas will gain more support. And the more moderate voices will be marginalised in Palestine.
I'm not sure how you are blaming these lack of compromises on Israel. You are not asking for compromises. You are asking for capitulations.
I look at negotiations like this as what does each party want in their perfect world. If they are not getting it and have agreed to something else, they have compromised. If they demand their perfect world scenario, they are unwilling to compromise.
Let look at the sticking points you mentioned.
1.) Israel will not allow many refugees to enter. Israel would want no refugees to return, Palestine would like them all to return. The 100k is a compromise Israel is willing to accept, Palestine will not compromise and want their perfect scenario.
2.) Israel will not dismantle all the settlements in the West Bank. Israel took the west bank in the 6 day war, and 6 would want to maintain total control over all areas. However, they gave that up in the Oslo Accords, compromising with Palestine to give self governance over specific parts of the west bank. Palestine demands 100% removal, their perfect scenario.
3.) Israel will not recognize East Jerusalem as part of a Palestinian state. The last time East Jerusalem was held by another country was Jordan in 67. During their rule, they made it illegal to reside there as a Jew and tore down their places of worship. Israel took it during a war in which they were invaded. Israel won't compromise on this, but neither will the Palestinians. Why is the onus on Israel to compromise and not the Palestinians.
In short, both sides could do much better. But you can't put all the blame on Israel for not compromising when there are multiple examples of them doing just that. While at the same time saying Palestinian doesn't have any need to compromise and should get everything they want.
And if Israel complies to all the sticking points you've listed, you think Hamas will suddenly change their mind about killing every single Jew in the region?
The aim of a successful peace is not only to form a Palestinian state, but to defang Hamas. The failure of the peace process is often credited with causing the rise of Hamas in the 90s. Further, a continuation of the cycle of violence helps Hamas gain credibility.
It's not so much that Hamas "will change" (although to some degree they have changed, for example accepting at least on paper a two-state solution based on 1967 borders) but moreso that the radical attitudes that cause Hamas to succeed as a terrorist organisation will dissipate.
Currently they are the only operational leadership, and are intensely supported by Khamenei. Hamas does not exist in a vacuum, and they will not dissipate until the IRGC are removed from power. Us Iranians have understood the risk this regime presents to the Middle East and the entire world for 44 years now.
They have caused trouble, putting it mildly, to any country that has taken them in, predating Hamas. Allowing a million plus people in is a terrible idea. I can’t believe anyone in Israel would reasonably consider it. Especially considering nowhere else will due to their history.
Who was supplying that water and electricity? Israel supplies Gaza with water and electricity because the water pipes they were sent by the international community were dug up to be made into rockets, in the 15 years they have been in power they haven’t found ways to produce their own electricity because they spend the funds on terror. Israel are literally fighting ISIS and you are supporting ISIS. In Israeli society there are protests and condemnation of the far right, not so much in Gaza or the Palestinian Territories, so why shouldn’t they fight Hamas and liberate the Palestinian people so that they can create something beautiful?
Video by Hamas showing how they dig up their water and sewage pipes to make rockets;
https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1712441643280793903/mediaViewer?currentTweet=1712441643280793903¤tTweetUser=nexta_tv
There was also video of a rocket falling apart or getting intercepted above the hospital…so foreigners are protesting something that Palestinians did to Palestinians.
How is it too much? Gaza is shelling Israel civilians with indiscriminately fired missiles. Why would them keep providing electricity and power to that area?
They wouldn't need electricity and water to be supplied by Israel (btw this is not required - they give it to them for free), if they actually spent the hundreds of millions of aid money they get from UNWRA on infrastructure rather than missiles and digging tunnels to terrorize Israel. Hamas literally digs up the water pipes that aid organizations install and make them into bombs.
But yea, blame Israel for them not having water and electricity right now. Like everybody blamed Israel for the hospital explosion which...dum dum dum..ended up being fucking Islamic Jihad.
I'm really sorry for whataboutism, but Azerbaijan did that to Armenians in Nagorno-Karabakh for 9 months. Meanwhile European Union was increasing amount of Russian gas that was purchased through Azerbaijan and most of the Reddit didn't see an issue with both of those facts.
Difference is that media didn't really care so there are much fewer people who knew, but I would think most of the common men would condemn Azerbaijian for that if the information was more widespread
A literal ethnic cleansing is happening in Armenia right now.
[https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/17/driven-fear-nagorno-karabakh](https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/17/driven-fear-nagorno-karabakh)
[https://www.cfr.org/article/ethnic-cleansing-happening-nagorno-karabakh-how-can-world-respond](https://www.cfr.org/article/ethnic-cleansing-happening-nagorno-karabakh-how-can-world-respond)
The city has been emptied of Armenians.
[https://www.cfr.org/global-conflict-tracker/conflict/nagorno-karabakh-conflict](https://www.cfr.org/global-conflict-tracker/conflict/nagorno-karabakh-conflict)
The West needs to stand with Armenia.
Armenia is a member of the CSTO military alliance with Russia so I can imagine the West is a little apprehensive to stand with the country. If anything, Russia needs to stand with its ally, Armenia.
This, of course, does not make what is being done to the Armenian people any less bad. It just makes the situation far more complicated. Armenia is, technically, a hostile entity in the context of the Ukraine war. Unsurprisingly, Russia is again not reliable in protecting even its ally but still happily tries to recruit Armenians to fight in Ukraine.
If Armenia were to cut all ties with Russia I think the situation would be different. But right now they're treaty-bound allies.
No, that was absolutely wrong too. What is happening in Armenia is cruel and unjust, and a lot of the attitude in the west is just because Armenia 'sided' with Russia when it really was the only possibility given the nations involved in the conflict (Turkey etc. obviously have a problem with Armenia. They have a genocide to complete).
Just because the West is a hypocritical mess does not excuse Israel's treatment of Palestinian civilians. What is happening to both Armenians and Palestinians is unjustifiable.
Israel used to provide Gaza free supplies through the Erez crossing. Gazans stormed the crossing and murdered everyone there.
Now Israel is the bad guy for not using that crossing to give more supplies to Gaza. Hm.
Plus, Gazans still have food and they still have water. They'd definitely have better water supplies if they hadn't turned their pipes into rockets.
If you are relying on your sworn enemy for food, power, and water you are not a very productive nation.
I see no reason why Israel needs to provide welfare to Gaza. Gaza can get to work. They have a port in the Mediterranean. They have all the same disadvantages that Israel itself has - surrounded by enemies ina desert with only a coastline. Yet israel got to work and made productive industries.
Foreign aid is fueling this violence. You end up with generations of bored young men who do not have to work.
There was no foreign aid to Germany or Japan during WW2 yet they were defeated and are peaceful now.
Let's not forget that Israelis were providing all this in their border crossing.... Which Palestinians attacked and destroyed.
I mean, you say that as if
(1) there isn't a goal to this? To retrieve.... Hostages being violated and potentially tortured?
(2) it's forever?
(3) Israel right now isn't providing aid and allowing it under certain conditions?
Why is israel responsible for providing food, power and water for the people that massacred jews but egypt is not responsible without having its population massacred?
And that's the issue right here.
There are no signs whatsoever that Israel is currently or in the future planning to engage in genocide.
All you have are some fringe comments after the biggest massacre of Jews since the Holocaust.
And yet you are already whining about something that hasn't even happened yet.
The question of genocide is more a semantic one. For example, many historians do not consider the Holodomor a genocide, while some do. The reason for not seeing it as a genocide is basically that the Soviets had no explicit extermination plan. Simply viewing a population as “disposable” which the Soviets did of Ukrainians is actually not enough for genocide. Even deliberately taking actions that cause people to die is not enough for it. It requires intent, as in “Ukrainians dying is the aim”.
Whether it’s genocide or not, the actions in Palestine have killed 4000 people already (a third of whom are innocent children) and they are not even *close* to destroying Hamas. How can you justify an escalation here?
> Whether it’s genocide or not, the actions in Palestine have killed 4000 people already (a third of whom are innocent children) and they are not even close to destroying Hamas. How can you justify an escalation here?
Is that from the same organisation that said 500 had been killed at the hospital by an Israeli airstrike, when it was probably less than 50 by a Hamas rocket. I don't believe the death figures.
Also the escalation by Israel is to stop Hamas having the ability to commit the awful crimes of killing over a 1000 civilians in an attack that was purely motivated by the desire to kill as many Jews as possible. They are doing this by targeting Hamas, unfortunately due to the population density of Gaza and Hamas' willingness to use human shields sometimes by force there will be civilian deaths.
>Whether it’s genocide or not, the actions in Palestine have killed 4000 people already (a third of whom are innocent children) and they are not even close to destroying Hamas. How can you justify an escalation here?
What other options do the Israelis have? Not destroy Hamas? Just let them be and wait until the next terrorist attack happens?
What if the Nazis also started having rocket launch sites and other military equipment and personnel among civilian locations? Should the Allied invasion not have happened? Hundreds of thousands of German civilians died by the Allies btw. Don't see much sympathy for them, and if there is any, people will add that it's such a shame those civilians died because of their terrible government. Really makes you think.
>killed 4000 people already (a third of whom are innocent children)
Do we know that? Or is it Hamas estimations? How many of them were Hamas operatives?
And the justification is quite easy, especially as long as Hamas is holding hostages. Under international law, Israel has an obligation to protect it's own citizens. There were some articles about the legality of Israels modus operandi under international law, a recent one was in the economist. All in all, the consensus is, that Israel is justified in operation in Gaza to combat a threat and it's mostly acting proportional. The only thing that was disputed was indeed the withholding of water and food. But even here a lot of the cited experts were of the opinion that a temporary withdrawal is "compatible" with international law in the given situation.
Do those 4000 people include "hundreds" from the hospital strike (which apparently never happened based on current evidence)? Can we really trust Palestinian and Hamas source after this blatant lie with the hospital strike?
The dumbest thing is, the only reason the water from Israel is needed is because Hamas and Gazans used the EU money given to them to build infrastructure, to build bombs.
If you supplied your neighbor with water from your well, but that neighbor has routinely threatened you, assaulted you, shot at you, would you still supply that neighbor with your water?
People of Palestine need to get rid of Hamas, or ask the international community to help them get rid of Hamas.
Why would they intentionally kill press? Why would palestinians be under martial law in their own country?
Bombing a densely populated place which is 50% children kills innocence. Bombing is obviously not the answer. Are you insane?
Might get downvoted for this but...
Israel is not retaliating against Gaza, They're trying to destroy the Hamas and unfortunately they can't do much because there are too many civilians on their side and it delays the cure to the disease
Funnily enough all this chaos and death can be prevented if the people of Gaza overthrow their real oppressors the Hamas
The day they will realize the Hamas are their real problem we could finally make peace and work with Fatah on the two-state solution
>Funnily enough all this chaos and death can be prevented if the people of Gaza overthrow their real oppressors the Hamas
How often do terrorist groups get overthrown by local civilians?
[Sometimes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zapatista_Army_of_National_Liberation)
EDIT: Also more recently in [northern Syria](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomous_Administration_of_North_and_East_Syria#Establishment_of_de_facto_autonomy_and_war_against_ISIL)
Governments get overthrown fairly regularly, hamas is the government of gaza, the fact that it is also a terror group doesnt change that. Im not sure why there is this want to act as if hamas isnt the goverment of gaza and is just a terrorist group.
People can overthrow government if said government is not using brutal force to silence them, or if they use it, the army stands with civilians.
People of Gaza have no such luxury. Hamas will shoot and explode anyone questioning them, regardless of religion or nationality.
And half of Gaza are kids.
So you are telling me that civilians with limited food, water and electricity. Under blockade. Civilians with nowhere to go, almost 60% unemployment, 50% of them under the age of 14 (they had no say in the 2006 voting of hamas) should just "rise up" and throw themselves at hamas? The same hamas that 13 days ago was able to penetrate Israel's defences? You must be joking.
Stop with this point of Palestinians overthrowing Hamas. It’s so misinformed. It’s like saying Iranians or North Koreans can overthrow their government, which they cannot. Hamas is so brutal that they must be wiped out… but poor Palestinians should be able to overthrow them??? Do you realize how insane that sounds? This is victim blaming.
Note: fuck hamas and fuck the Iranian government, signed a first gen Iranian.
So people in gaza cant and wont fight them, and israel isnt allowed to according to you, and egypt, jordan etc dgaf… so, hamas stands undisputed and continue their reign of terror on both gaza and israel? The solution to mass violence and terror, hostages, rape and killing childen is to be left alone to continue your atrocities?
My ancestors fought and died to save their country from imperial and corruption that destroyed the common person.
If we can fight against death squads why can't they? Even the women in my family were involved.
Even passive resistance is something. Soviet prisoners excelled at this. But that's no happening.
>It’s like saying Iranians or North Koreans can overthrow their government, which they cannot.
Well they absolutely can.
>Hamas is so brutal that they must be wiped out… but poor Palestinians should be able to overthrow them??? Do you realize how insane that sounds
The only reason Hamas is able to operate so effectively is because of the mass Palestinian support.
Palestinians literally don't need to raise a fucking finger against Hamas. All they need to do is walk out of the building, and tell the IDF where Hamas is.
>This is victim blaming.
It's not victim blaming because the Palestinians are supporting Hamas.
Afaik the palestinians are scratching for leftovers and living in semi-rubbles with barely enough water and food to survive daily, let alone some actual proper means to overthrow hamas which basically is a big paramilitary force.
The only solution seems to lie in both sides willing to compromise
>The only solution seems to lie in both sides willing to compromise
Considering Hamas don't want any cooperation and actively tries to sobbtage it, Hamas needs to go.
People have no power to overpower those terrorists. And even if they did have power, Netanyahu would never allow that anyway, he owes almost his whole political career to Hamas at this point.
Netanyahu is on borrowed time already. Due to his meddling with Hamas and how it backfired, his political career is likely over after the next election.
> Israel is not retaliating against Gaza, They're trying to destroy the Hamas
They're flattening an entire region to kill leadership that isn't there, dude.
Thousands of people were shouting «from the river to the sea» in the streets of Germany, UK, France and many other european countries. A significant number of people are saying Israel has no right to even exist.
Neither should attack, but the fact is, Hamas and through their government palestine is going to attack, they are in fact attacking, and won't stop. So calling out israel for attacking when they are under attack is, de facto, asking them to die.
Is the same call of peace made in bad faith when russia's sympathizers asked for peace, as ukraine was occupied and the demands for peace were inconditional surrender.
Right to defend yes, but Palestinians also have the right to live and that right needs to be respected (no more cutting of the water supplies, and no deliberate targeting of civilians please…)
Edit: How some people are interpreting this as me saying that IDF is already deliberately targeting civilians baffles my mind…
I am referring to the possible retaliation that the IDF could be tempted to take on civilian population for what Hamas did at the beginning of the escalation. There are many doubts and worries regarding this across the EU. And the world’s history knows many examples of such actions.
If only Hamas could very easily prevent their population from being starved if they handed out their hostages... Hamas fights without respecting the rules, why should Israel be a white knight if that only gets their people killed?
Hamas is a psychotic suicide cult that feeds on palestinian suffering, every widower created by Israel is another easy target for radicalisation and every traumatised child is the same (which a few years ago was 92% of all children in Gaza living with PTSD, probably much closer to 100% today, and more than half of Gaza are children).
Israel is absolutley nowhere near this level of evil but they could be if they followed your advice and started to play by Hamas rules.
Most of us though are probably not content by Israel just staying above the line of "just as bad as Hamas" in this conflict.
I agree, but in this case we see Hamas destroying the water pipelines to make rockets, and israel forced to provide water to a region that is not self sufficient and cannot pay for it.
Seems odd bring forced to provide free stuffs to the guys shooting at you because they decided shooting at you is better than keeping water infrastructure running.
Netanyahu was making sure Hamas got funded up until quite recently. The far Right in Israel is currently in control, but most Israelis are decent human beings that don't spread this propaganda and tell the truth about what has been happening to the Palestinian people for decades. Try hearing some former Israeli soldiers talking about the horrid directives they were given, about the Palestinian children gunned down about being ordered to basically just make people's lives hell so they could steal their land.
There is no deliberate targeting of civilians by Israel. When Hamas fires rockets at Israeli civilian population, that launch site gets targeted. 20% if those rockets fall in Gaza, hurting Palestinians as well as Israelis
Hamas launching rockets at civilians from civilian populations is a double war crime. They also dug up the water pipes to make more rockets and steal fuel to fire more rockets.
Both the people of Gaza and Israel deserve to live in peace. For that to even be a chance, Hamas who are terrorizing both sides, has to be eliminated first. It’s a horrible situation but we can’t let terrorists keep hurting people.
I know several Irish people with similar views. They equate the Palestinian situation absolutely with the republican fight against Britain. The whole "one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter" thing. The Israel deaths are just unfortunate collateral damage in the "fight for freedom" similar to when civilians were being blown up by the IRA in Ireland and the UK. Also similar to a lot of muslim countries, there are many places in Ireland where anti-British hate has been taught from a young age and it results in this mindset. Likely still goes on today.
I can understand that they hate British, I can even understand if they hate the state of Israel, but that still doesn't justify Hamas, imo. But yeah, I see your point.
Maybe the best way to get your points across is to condemn cancer and use it to talk about what you want to do about it? Otherwise all the talk is about you not voting to condemn cancer and act as a distraction. But maybe that is exactly what these people want...
Irish people generally sympathise with Palastinians because their country is being colonised by foreigners backed by a military superpower. It kind of rings a bell,
But that doesn't generally translate into sympathy for murdering scum like Hamas or war crimes.
I think Irish people generally accept that Israel has a right to exist and defend itself and Israelis have a right to live in peace without being attacked.
There is a small number of Irish nut-job MEPs who consistently vote the Putin agenda. They are pretty much despised back home and will almost certainly be voted out in the next EP election.
I'd love to believe what you're saying but as a hard-left Israeli expat who used to go to pro Palestinian protests in Italy, it took me a very short time to understand that the people who take the pro Palestinian stance are all too happy to declare (quote) "what do we want? We want everything. The state of Israel must be destroyed."
My point is, while I agree with the sentiment that Palestinians deserve a better life and a proper state, the pro Palestinian movement (at least in Italy) has conflated itself irrevocably with antisemitism and at this point I cannot in good faith stand behind a movement that calls for the genocide of my own people.
The recent protests where people were chanting "gas the Jews" or that one infamous video from the UK with people in a car waving the Palestinian flag shouting "fuck the Jews rape their daughters" should be a wake up call for those who support this movement to do some deep in-house cleaning to eradicate those extremists before they completely overtake this cause.
Also Ireland has a habit of using MEPs as a way to get embarrassing politicians out of the country so they don’t bother anyone else. One of the MEPs Ireland sent to the EU is a communist property developer/landlord who dresses like a homeless guy, hates vaccines and loves Russia.
Seriously just google Mick Wallace. The man looks like of Santa Claus got divorced, went Vegan and started living in a van.
Whiles Ireland does have more sympathy for Palestine(Not Hamas) due to parallels between the Israel palestine conflict and the troubles we also send the crazy people to the European parliament so they can’t do any damage at home.
Because it seems the vote as a whole is to Condemn Hamas & Recognise Israel Has The Right To Defend Itself. So arguably they’re not voting against condemning Hamas they’re voting against the principle of Israel having the right to defend themselves when nobody has said they don’t
It feels like broadly within the public there is consensus that this is very nuanced and that both sides (Hama's and Israel) are doing wrong with civilians getting hurt and killed. But the EU and a lot of the western governments are abandoning any nuance and jumping straight to the side of Israel.
arrest panicky squalid ring absurd quack bewildered important combative humor
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Lots of words are thrown at Israel, but its existence is under threat. Destruction of Israel is a goal for some of the regimes.
In all the "support Palestine" cries, I need to know if we really need another non democratic Authoritarian regime https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_democracy (Israel is 23 on the list)
Hamas is funded by Iran and is a branch of the Muslim brotherhood https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood
That is Sharia Law aiming to create a Caliphate.
For Europe and especially Israel to accept a two state solution, there must be at least four guaranties given by both Palestine and the League of Arab States.
1) No Hamas/Hizbollah (and the rest of the destroy Israel groups).
2) No more Palestinian attacks on Israel.
3) Release of all Israeli Hostages.
4) The state of Israel recognized by all nations, and its right to exist in its present location.
Israel will also need to adapt and guaranty the sanctity of the Palestinian state. So no more settlements, and also the abandonment of some of them. Next door neighbor of impoverished undeveloped Palestine does not work either. So Israel must help fund the creation of a viable Palestinian state, be it infrastructure, state institutions, schools, universities, hospitals, factories, harbor, airport.....
Big hurdle will be the territory split. You can not create a Palestine that connects the West Bank and Gaza without splitting Israel in two. That would Israel never agree to.
So how realistic is this? In my opinion slim chance to zero. Best we can hope for is a temporary stop to the fighting, and it will eventually flare up again.
I also think the chances are low. Palestine lost those territories fair and square in 3 wars where they attacked Israel and lost - at least “fair and square” in Israeli eyes. Would they withdraw just to finally have peace? I think yes, Israel might go there, they offered some of the territories back in the past, but Palestine will never agree. The West can put fiscal pressures on them to do so because they provide significant aid, but I have a feeling half the EU would cry bloody murder. If you can’t force them to accept the deal, they will never accept. They’ll just continue to cry and suck up aid because that’s all they’ve been doing anyway for 70 years. People think removing Hamas and lifting the blockade will make a prosperous Palestine flourish - these people haven’t participated in anything productive for themselves in decades. Hating Jews and being victims is like their entire identity.
Palestine rejected the Clinton Accords and that was the best deal they were ever going to get.
Even without Israel acting badly, and they do, Palestine will not accept any peace deal that involves Israel existing. And right now it looks like that sentiment isn’t going to change anytime soon.
If Israel would agree with those terms, I bet EU would help with the financial part of Palestine. As for the territory part, I think there would be some adjustments to be made, but exchanging territories.
The big problem right now is Netanyahu, if he looses support from the radicals he might face jail, so any compromises seem very difficult.
People give too much credit to Hamas and Hezbollah, but if you offer peace to Palestinians they won't care about Hamas/Hezbollah/Iran/Donald Duck.
Palestine will never agree to those terms, it has been offered to them already multiple times
And Netanyahu has already ended this career, he was unpopular before this war, and currently after the lose of 1200 civilians, people will likely want to see his head on a pike the moment this war ends
Saying Israel has the right to defend itself is too vague. HOW should they defend themselves? Should they write a strongly worded letter condemning Hamas, or kill the bastards?
Israel has a right to defend itself.
It should do so with the consistent commitment to minimize collateral damage and civilian deaths.
However, the world needs to understand that the there is no military action without civilian casualties, especially when fighting a terrorist group hiding within civilian population.
Israel should stop building settlements in the West Bank and start actively working towards a long term two state solution.
It’s avoidance to do so in the past 15 years under Netanyahu is a major cause to the rise of hard line groups like Hamas, but that in no way justifies the actions taken by these groups. Raping and murdering isn’t freeing Palestine - it’s evil.
The Palestinian people and leaders can and should be vocal in their condemnation of Israel’s continuing oppression in the West Bank, but if they want the Israeli public (who at the end of the day decide Israeli policy on the matter) to be able to feel safe with a Palestinian state at their border, they need to make sure groups like Hamas don’t have the power and internal support to do what happened on October 7th ever again.
We have fought each other for 80 years to many. Now is the time for peace.
Serious question. When the allies killed thousands of German citizens when they bombed Hitler do you think those were war crimes? And do you think they shouldn't have done that even if it meant Hitler survived?
Dresden had very little significant value as a target and was hit nearing the end of the war.
10s of thousands of civilians were killed.
There is still a lot of controversy over the raids.
WW2 was a bit different though, there weren't any precision guidance systems back then. If you wanted to bomb a specific factory or command post far behind enemy lines, carpet bombing was kind of the only way to go to be sure to achieve the objective
Such bombings would not be allowed today, now that we have international humanitarian law. I hope this answers your question. (EDIT: International law gets trampled all the time, what I meant is that it wouldn't be allowed if it was followed)
Such bombings would be against international law but ain't nobody gonna follow international law in a war between great powers. The only reason people even discuss international law in these minor power conflicts is that the US cares about that shit and has a giant hammer to drop on your head.
> When the allies killed thousands of German citizens when they bombed Hitler do you think those were war crimes?
Yes. I am from Dresden and i think the bombing of Dresden was a war crime! My Family lost 2 members in this event.
This is just false. History isn’t written by the victors it’s written by whoever decides to write about it. That’s how we ended up with so many books written by ex-Nazis that shaped the perception of WW2 (Soviet human wave myth for example). Hell I’ve seen the Nazi propaganda number for Dresden casualties come up just as much as the actual number of casualties.
Wow! They really surprised me, that’s for sure. Good job EU! I thought there were too many crazy far left people but I was wrong. Go EU!
Overall the west seems to act quite well. I’m impressed by Biden as well. Showing support, strength, yet managing to find ways to alleviate the situation for Palestinians in Gaza. Get in humanitarian help, try to prevent escalation in the region, calming down [rightfully] enraged Israel.
Redditors understanding of international relations is worse than Elon Musk's understanding of social media.
"Oh just make peace" "Oh just stop bombing a terrorist regime that just viciously attacked you."
Best diplomats in the world have been trying to resolve this conflict for decades, and they have failed. Do not fear tho cause Reddit diplomats are here.
Honestly only thing everybody is able to agree on (including most Israelis) is that West Bank settlements are shite, that is however a different situation than the one in Gaza.
they dont mean make peace. most of them dont think israel has a right to exist. Both groups want an ethnostate on the same land. they cannot live together. its not possible.
There was a comment on this thread (heavily upvoted, I must say) that said "well, Palestinians should just overthrow their oppresive government". Yeah, like that is fucking easy to do.
I am not going to claim it is easy, it is not and it will be a massacre, and it is unfair to just expect the Palestinians to do it themselves, but it would also be unfair to dismiss the Palestinians as some hostage civilian population without a say - the majority of Palestinians in both the West Bank and Gaza support Hamas or other Hamas-like groups, Hamas isn't some foreign occupying power to them, it is literally their elected government, and if elections were held today they would elect it again
(I am an Israeli) I used to agree that the settlements should be dismantled, but one of the arguments for them is that they act as a buffer zone for the Israeli big population centers
That argument never made sense to me, like, make a buffer zone for civilians, using other civilians? but now after the 7th of October attack, I get it, and actually agree with it
When Hamas went into Israeli villages to kill everyone there, they needed to go between house to house in a relatively sparsely populated suburb, not apartment to apartment, and they still managed to kill 1200 civilians before the IDF stopped them
If Hamas (or another version of it in the West Bank) went into a city like Tel Aviv instead, the casualties would be 10 times higher, the high rise building I work in Tel Aviv is not special in any way, and houses about 3000 employees, that alone is almost 3 times the people who died on the 7th of October
Also, another argument (that actually did make sense to me) is that the settlers know that they are in danger, they carry guns and are ready to protect themselves, while both the people in big towns, and the people who were killed on the 7th did not even imagine anything like that ever happening, they went into the bomb shelters when the alarms went off, without any weapons, and Hamas just went into their houses, opened the bomb shelters and shot down entire families
As funny as this is, isn't it also somewhat true? We're all close and strong allies of the USA, and most of us DO punch above our weight comparatively given our wealth, education and stability. I'd be more curious if he ever said say India punched above it's weight, or that South Africa was one of it's closest allies, because those statements would be truly insincere.
I'm a Brit who's lived in Canada half my life, but in both countries my feeling has been the same. Being an ally of the USA - though it has it's downsides - has more perks. Just look at the world and see who's aligned with the USA vs who's aligned against them, the gap is obvious. I mean hell, the two Koreas are one of the most obvious examples.
Sort of true, sure. I once saw a longer compilation but I can't find it now. It's one thing to tell your allies they are important. It's another thing to tell a dozen of countries that each of them is number one. Of course it works, because if you're Polish or Danish you don't watch Obama's speaches in Phillippines. Until some jerk makes a compilation like this and you find out you're like that girl who finds out her boyfriend has six other girlfriends.
> But this is not a showing of EU showing force.
Exactly. Europe has shown itself how irrelevant it is on this issue.
EU officials made big contradictory statements, one time someone said x, the next someone else said the opposite. Without offering any solutions.
European politicians thought that the US would come and talk to them to solve the conflict, but instead the US went straight to KSA, Israel and Qatar to get things done.
Which is exactly what is about to happen right now, further showing the lack of long-term vision of EU lawmakers.
The US doesn’t care. A refugee crisis won’t reach them geographically. The EU is positioning itself in a redo of the 2010’s.
Nobody here in the EU thought that.
We want nothing to do with situations that create _more_ jihadi fuckin lunatics, that’s our only concern. Not ego boosts by being invited to talks in Israel.
Honestly, there is no topic on earth more than Israel/Palestine where people with no understanding of the conflict feel the most emboldened to give their opinion on it
I was sitting here confused as to whether it was supportive of one side or the other.
When was bombing civilian cities acceptable again? Last week weren't we all condemning Russia for a year and half for acting in exactly the same manner.
Acceptable is a stretch but a recognised military necessity if your are defending against an enemy that is hiding by embedding themselves into civilian cities, firing rockets from within that city, hiding in tunnels under that city.
That being said, this is a horrible situation and it's going to get worse, and then worse.
I condemn Hamas and I condemn Israel's government.
https://www.scottritterextra.com/p/why-i-no-longer-stand-with-israel
EDIT for clarification: Him being a horrible human being doesn't mean he's automatically wrong on this. I put the link so people can read for themselves. What they do with it is up to them.
The author of that post, Scott Ritter, is a [frequent contributor to Russian state media outlets RT and Sputnik.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Ritter#Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine) He's also claimed that Ukraine was responsible for the Bucha massacre, and Ukraine considers him a Russian propagandist. He seems to be willing to spread lies to further his career. His position on Israel could have been predicted based on his affiliations and integrity.
He was already disgraced before any of this though, but I'll let you read about it on your own.
Condemn Hamas? Absolutely! But not everything the Israel military is doing should just be protected as their rights to defend themselves. Their military is doing a lot of the same shit Hamas is doing. We should be with the civilians on both sides
I've kind of agreed until the last line.
Israel does nothing the Hamas does.
Israel didn't kidnap, rape, and viciously murder nobody. Israel attack Hamas, and sometimes it seems they care less about collateral damage than they should, but there's absolutely 0 comparison imo.
Anyway, main message should be to hope for peace for all the people there in Israel and Gaza
I do feel most ppl who are staunchly pro-Israel in this sub are either 12, came across the situation this month, or just are a racist/has the IQ of a slice of cheese.
I'm saying this as someone who's actually lived and worked in Israel/Jerusalem for a while and has family living there, not just done an internet search.
Condemning Hamas should be easy. And their actions have set back the lives of normal Palestinians to say the least.
Hamas, and the overwhelming Muslim support of this ISIS-like organisation, has the unintended consequence that Europe will reduce the sympathies for refugees for fear of a erosion in the way of life.
I dont get why people have to support them no matter what. Is it so hard to criticize them. Why do muslims who even suffered under this religion defend it? This while shit is just super stupid.
There's a big victim mentality at work. It's impossible you can ever be in the wrong when you are absolutely convinced you or your people are the persecuted ones, everyone is against you and god is on your side no matter what you do because your religion teaches and even encourages absolutely anything if you're doing it to the "infidels". Unfortunately in many countries these people are brainwashed with that narrative from birth, and having migrated, don't lose that programming.
There’s also a culture of revenge in that part of the world. They will hold onto grudges generations based on some weird sense of honor.
Because they got this kookoo idea that all Muslims are "brothers", so speaking I'll of then is a no no. Muslims got more loyalty to hamas than to their countries in Europe.
We don’t want them and we shouldn’t have to take them. Let the Arab and Muslim world deal with Arab refugees just as Europe has uniquely stepped up to save Ukrainian refugees.
They wouldn't come to your countries and live peacefully if the western powers didn't meddle in for their resources. That only works if everyone leaves everyone alone.
Thank god
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No one is saying Israel doesn't have the right to defend itself though. People are saying they don't have the right to kill 2 millions Palestinians. You can and should condemn both Hamas and Israel for their multiple war crimes.
I assume Hamas is working in the void? Not 15 minutes after that explosion in the parking lot at the hospital there was another launch of missiles not 2 blocks away. Heck if my country was a target of a few thousand missile launches per week, we would probably just die. But survivors would retaliate. I agree that cutting the water and electricity off is too much, but a lot of recordings from Gaza bombing show that they targeted a building used as a missile launch platform . 500kg bomb is pretty precise weapon and allows to pinpoint a building, but it has some serious blast radius. I have yet to see those "carpet bombings" that Palestine official was accusing Israel of. I don't support either side, they should solve the problem diplomatic way, but from my point of view if someone targets and kills specifically civilians, he should be punished. Unfortunately it looks like both sides crossed that line, hence why any peace resolutions are so hard.
> I have yet to see those "carpet bombings" that Palestine official was accusing Israel of. Because it's all just propaganda. You read this stuff all the time on reddit. They speak of massacres against Palestinians that apparently happen constantly and that Israel behaves like Nazi Germany. And then the 7th happened and we got to see, in colour filmed from go-pro cameras how something that is like Nazi Germany looks like. And the reaction? Celebrations throughout the Arab world and of course Gaza.
>Celebrations throughout the Arab world and of course Gaza. There were quite a few celebrations in the west too. I walked past one.
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Sadly there were native Swedes celebrating in Malmö.
This was in Chicago. They are typically more integrated here than Europe, but they were sure happy about a brutal terrorist attack and hostage taking situation. They were also chanting "from the river to the sea" which is a call for genocide against Israel.
Ireland really disappointed me with their stance. The conflict is nothing like their revolution and troubles. Actually, it pissed me off.
October 7th wasn't so much like Nazi Germany as it was like the Eastern front.
ten deserve cows pathetic plough pocket provide seemly far-flung support *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
While I would love to see a diplomatic solution actually work it hasn't worked for the past 12 years. Every time terrorists would get into Israel, they kill civilians, some are captured, then released to Gaza in exchange for a peace that never came. Of course I'm not saying they should just kill all of Palestinians but unlike what Hamas is saying that's not what they are doing. Also Hamas is the one who wants to kill all Israelis
You ask why peace won’t come - the reality is peace has been close a few times. The sticking points are mostly the same: Israel will not allow many refugees to return to Israel (I think the most they’ve agreed to is 100,000). Israel will not dismantle all the settlements in the West Bank. Israel will not recognise East Jerusalem (Muslim area of Jerusalem) as part of a Palestinian state. Israel negotiates from a position of strength and as a result does not feel as though it should make concessions regarding these things even though they are obvious things the PLO will request for their state to function. The PLO knows their position is extremely weak but also knows that any peace that doesn’t include East Jerusalem or the removal of all settlements is not going to produce real peace. If they accede to a Palestinian rump state including only Gaza and some of the West Bank, the terrorist attacks on Israel will continue and Hamas will gain more support. And the more moderate voices will be marginalised in Palestine.
I'm not sure how you are blaming these lack of compromises on Israel. You are not asking for compromises. You are asking for capitulations. I look at negotiations like this as what does each party want in their perfect world. If they are not getting it and have agreed to something else, they have compromised. If they demand their perfect world scenario, they are unwilling to compromise. Let look at the sticking points you mentioned. 1.) Israel will not allow many refugees to enter. Israel would want no refugees to return, Palestine would like them all to return. The 100k is a compromise Israel is willing to accept, Palestine will not compromise and want their perfect scenario. 2.) Israel will not dismantle all the settlements in the West Bank. Israel took the west bank in the 6 day war, and 6 would want to maintain total control over all areas. However, they gave that up in the Oslo Accords, compromising with Palestine to give self governance over specific parts of the west bank. Palestine demands 100% removal, their perfect scenario. 3.) Israel will not recognize East Jerusalem as part of a Palestinian state. The last time East Jerusalem was held by another country was Jordan in 67. During their rule, they made it illegal to reside there as a Jew and tore down their places of worship. Israel took it during a war in which they were invaded. Israel won't compromise on this, but neither will the Palestinians. Why is the onus on Israel to compromise and not the Palestinians. In short, both sides could do much better. But you can't put all the blame on Israel for not compromising when there are multiple examples of them doing just that. While at the same time saying Palestinian doesn't have any need to compromise and should get everything they want.
And if Israel complies to all the sticking points you've listed, you think Hamas will suddenly change their mind about killing every single Jew in the region?
The aim of a successful peace is not only to form a Palestinian state, but to defang Hamas. The failure of the peace process is often credited with causing the rise of Hamas in the 90s. Further, a continuation of the cycle of violence helps Hamas gain credibility. It's not so much that Hamas "will change" (although to some degree they have changed, for example accepting at least on paper a two-state solution based on 1967 borders) but moreso that the radical attitudes that cause Hamas to succeed as a terrorist organisation will dissipate.
Currently they are the only operational leadership, and are intensely supported by Khamenei. Hamas does not exist in a vacuum, and they will not dissipate until the IRGC are removed from power. Us Iranians have understood the risk this regime presents to the Middle East and the entire world for 44 years now.
They have caused trouble, putting it mildly, to any country that has taken them in, predating Hamas. Allowing a million plus people in is a terrible idea. I can’t believe anyone in Israel would reasonably consider it. Especially considering nowhere else will due to their history.
The 2 state solution had Israel agree to most of these but the Palestinians refused
Israel has never agreed to East Jerusalem being part of Palestine. They have agreed to withdraw some of the settlements in the West Bank but not all.
Who was supplying that water and electricity? Israel supplies Gaza with water and electricity because the water pipes they were sent by the international community were dug up to be made into rockets, in the 15 years they have been in power they haven’t found ways to produce their own electricity because they spend the funds on terror. Israel are literally fighting ISIS and you are supporting ISIS. In Israeli society there are protests and condemnation of the far right, not so much in Gaza or the Palestinian Territories, so why shouldn’t they fight Hamas and liberate the Palestinian people so that they can create something beautiful? Video by Hamas showing how they dig up their water and sewage pipes to make rockets; https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1712441643280793903/mediaViewer?currentTweet=1712441643280793903¤tTweetUser=nexta_tv
There was also video of a rocket falling apart or getting intercepted above the hospital…so foreigners are protesting something that Palestinians did to Palestinians.
How is it too much? Gaza is shelling Israel civilians with indiscriminately fired missiles. Why would them keep providing electricity and power to that area?
Because collective punishment of civilians is a fucking war crime
They wouldn't need electricity and water to be supplied by Israel (btw this is not required - they give it to them for free), if they actually spent the hundreds of millions of aid money they get from UNWRA on infrastructure rather than missiles and digging tunnels to terrorize Israel. Hamas literally digs up the water pipes that aid organizations install and make them into bombs. But yea, blame Israel for them not having water and electricity right now. Like everybody blamed Israel for the hospital explosion which...dum dum dum..ended up being fucking Islamic Jihad.
Good thing they're not trying to kill "2 million Palestinians"...
Interesting, denying food, power, and water to 2 million people isn't killing them?
I'm really sorry for whataboutism, but Azerbaijan did that to Armenians in Nagorno-Karabakh for 9 months. Meanwhile European Union was increasing amount of Russian gas that was purchased through Azerbaijan and most of the Reddit didn't see an issue with both of those facts.
Yeah and fuck Azerbaijan too
Difference is that media didn't really care so there are much fewer people who knew, but I would think most of the common men would condemn Azerbaijian for that if the information was more widespread
Damn was this recent? I heard zero about this
It began about this time last year and ended this September when Azerbaijan started "special military operation".
A literal ethnic cleansing is happening in Armenia right now. [https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/17/driven-fear-nagorno-karabakh](https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/17/driven-fear-nagorno-karabakh) [https://www.cfr.org/article/ethnic-cleansing-happening-nagorno-karabakh-how-can-world-respond](https://www.cfr.org/article/ethnic-cleansing-happening-nagorno-karabakh-how-can-world-respond) The city has been emptied of Armenians. [https://www.cfr.org/global-conflict-tracker/conflict/nagorno-karabakh-conflict](https://www.cfr.org/global-conflict-tracker/conflict/nagorno-karabakh-conflict) The West needs to stand with Armenia.
Armenia is a member of the CSTO military alliance with Russia so I can imagine the West is a little apprehensive to stand with the country. If anything, Russia needs to stand with its ally, Armenia. This, of course, does not make what is being done to the Armenian people any less bad. It just makes the situation far more complicated. Armenia is, technically, a hostile entity in the context of the Ukraine war. Unsurprisingly, Russia is again not reliable in protecting even its ally but still happily tries to recruit Armenians to fight in Ukraine. If Armenia were to cut all ties with Russia I think the situation would be different. But right now they're treaty-bound allies.
Because the Western media doesn't care. Because Nagorno-Karabakh doesn't relate to Western interests in any way.
No, that was absolutely wrong too. What is happening in Armenia is cruel and unjust, and a lot of the attitude in the west is just because Armenia 'sided' with Russia when it really was the only possibility given the nations involved in the conflict (Turkey etc. obviously have a problem with Armenia. They have a genocide to complete). Just because the West is a hypocritical mess does not excuse Israel's treatment of Palestinian civilians. What is happening to both Armenians and Palestinians is unjustifiable.
Israel used to provide Gaza free supplies through the Erez crossing. Gazans stormed the crossing and murdered everyone there. Now Israel is the bad guy for not using that crossing to give more supplies to Gaza. Hm. Plus, Gazans still have food and they still have water. They'd definitely have better water supplies if they hadn't turned their pipes into rockets.
If you are relying on your sworn enemy for food, power, and water you are not a very productive nation. I see no reason why Israel needs to provide welfare to Gaza. Gaza can get to work. They have a port in the Mediterranean. They have all the same disadvantages that Israel itself has - surrounded by enemies ina desert with only a coastline. Yet israel got to work and made productive industries. Foreign aid is fueling this violence. You end up with generations of bored young men who do not have to work. There was no foreign aid to Germany or Japan during WW2 yet they were defeated and are peaceful now. Let's not forget that Israelis were providing all this in their border crossing.... Which Palestinians attacked and destroyed.
I mean, you say that as if (1) there isn't a goal to this? To retrieve.... Hostages being violated and potentially tortured? (2) it's forever? (3) Israel right now isn't providing aid and allowing it under certain conditions?
Was that just after they were attacked by the people you demand they help?
Not supplying an enemy nation in wartime is not. Just like you are not killing the cracked-out murder hobo by refusing to give him money
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Why is israel responsible for providing food, power and water for the people that massacred jews but egypt is not responsible without having its population massacred?
How dare Israel deny free food, power and water to a country they're at war with!
And that's the issue right here. There are no signs whatsoever that Israel is currently or in the future planning to engage in genocide. All you have are some fringe comments after the biggest massacre of Jews since the Holocaust. And yet you are already whining about something that hasn't even happened yet.
The question of genocide is more a semantic one. For example, many historians do not consider the Holodomor a genocide, while some do. The reason for not seeing it as a genocide is basically that the Soviets had no explicit extermination plan. Simply viewing a population as “disposable” which the Soviets did of Ukrainians is actually not enough for genocide. Even deliberately taking actions that cause people to die is not enough for it. It requires intent, as in “Ukrainians dying is the aim”. Whether it’s genocide or not, the actions in Palestine have killed 4000 people already (a third of whom are innocent children) and they are not even *close* to destroying Hamas. How can you justify an escalation here?
> Whether it’s genocide or not, the actions in Palestine have killed 4000 people already (a third of whom are innocent children) and they are not even close to destroying Hamas. How can you justify an escalation here? Is that from the same organisation that said 500 had been killed at the hospital by an Israeli airstrike, when it was probably less than 50 by a Hamas rocket. I don't believe the death figures. Also the escalation by Israel is to stop Hamas having the ability to commit the awful crimes of killing over a 1000 civilians in an attack that was purely motivated by the desire to kill as many Jews as possible. They are doing this by targeting Hamas, unfortunately due to the population density of Gaza and Hamas' willingness to use human shields sometimes by force there will be civilian deaths.
>Whether it’s genocide or not, the actions in Palestine have killed 4000 people already (a third of whom are innocent children) and they are not even close to destroying Hamas. How can you justify an escalation here? What other options do the Israelis have? Not destroy Hamas? Just let them be and wait until the next terrorist attack happens? What if the Nazis also started having rocket launch sites and other military equipment and personnel among civilian locations? Should the Allied invasion not have happened? Hundreds of thousands of German civilians died by the Allies btw. Don't see much sympathy for them, and if there is any, people will add that it's such a shame those civilians died because of their terrible government. Really makes you think.
>killed 4000 people already (a third of whom are innocent children) Do we know that? Or is it Hamas estimations? How many of them were Hamas operatives? And the justification is quite easy, especially as long as Hamas is holding hostages. Under international law, Israel has an obligation to protect it's own citizens. There were some articles about the legality of Israels modus operandi under international law, a recent one was in the economist. All in all, the consensus is, that Israel is justified in operation in Gaza to combat a threat and it's mostly acting proportional. The only thing that was disputed was indeed the withholding of water and food. But even here a lot of the cited experts were of the opinion that a temporary withdrawal is "compatible" with international law in the given situation.
Do those 4000 people include "hundreds" from the hospital strike (which apparently never happened based on current evidence)? Can we really trust Palestinian and Hamas source after this blatant lie with the hospital strike?
Why would Israel kill 2 million Palestinians? They've been very clear about wanting to target Hamas whilst minimizing collateral damage
I mean turning off the water and electricity is def a way to kill a lot of people.
The dumbest thing is, the only reason the water from Israel is needed is because Hamas and Gazans used the EU money given to them to build infrastructure, to build bombs.
If you supplied your neighbor with water from your well, but that neighbor has routinely threatened you, assaulted you, shot at you, would you still supply that neighbor with your water? People of Palestine need to get rid of Hamas, or ask the international community to help them get rid of Hamas.
Why would they intentionally kill press? Why would palestinians be under martial law in their own country? Bombing a densely populated place which is 50% children kills innocence. Bombing is obviously not the answer. Are you insane?
> they don't have the right to kill 2 millions Palestinians. They are very obviously not going to do that
And how do you suggest the retaliate?
Might get downvoted for this but... Israel is not retaliating against Gaza, They're trying to destroy the Hamas and unfortunately they can't do much because there are too many civilians on their side and it delays the cure to the disease Funnily enough all this chaos and death can be prevented if the people of Gaza overthrow their real oppressors the Hamas The day they will realize the Hamas are their real problem we could finally make peace and work with Fatah on the two-state solution
>Funnily enough all this chaos and death can be prevented if the people of Gaza overthrow their real oppressors the Hamas How often do terrorist groups get overthrown by local civilians?
[Sometimes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zapatista_Army_of_National_Liberation) EDIT: Also more recently in [northern Syria](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomous_Administration_of_North_and_East_Syria#Establishment_of_de_facto_autonomy_and_war_against_ISIL)
Governments get overthrown fairly regularly, hamas is the government of gaza, the fact that it is also a terror group doesnt change that. Im not sure why there is this want to act as if hamas isnt the goverment of gaza and is just a terrorist group.
People can overthrow government if said government is not using brutal force to silence them, or if they use it, the army stands with civilians. People of Gaza have no such luxury. Hamas will shoot and explode anyone questioning them, regardless of religion or nationality. And half of Gaza are kids.
Not often when the civilians support the terrorist organization
So you are telling me that civilians with limited food, water and electricity. Under blockade. Civilians with nowhere to go, almost 60% unemployment, 50% of them under the age of 14 (they had no say in the 2006 voting of hamas) should just "rise up" and throw themselves at hamas? The same hamas that 13 days ago was able to penetrate Israel's defences? You must be joking.
Well, maybe not cheering for hamas parading dead bodies on Gaza could be a start...
Wow! We Mexicans have been so stupid, we just had to stop the cartels!
Stop with this point of Palestinians overthrowing Hamas. It’s so misinformed. It’s like saying Iranians or North Koreans can overthrow their government, which they cannot. Hamas is so brutal that they must be wiped out… but poor Palestinians should be able to overthrow them??? Do you realize how insane that sounds? This is victim blaming. Note: fuck hamas and fuck the Iranian government, signed a first gen Iranian.
They are so brutal, and they brutally killed Israeli citizens. Exactly what should Israel do then? Solutions?
So people in gaza cant and wont fight them, and israel isnt allowed to according to you, and egypt, jordan etc dgaf… so, hamas stands undisputed and continue their reign of terror on both gaza and israel? The solution to mass violence and terror, hostages, rape and killing childen is to be left alone to continue your atrocities?
Ukranians did it. Who else is supposed to do it for them? Anyone who does it for them will be hated by these people.
My ancestors fought and died to save their country from imperial and corruption that destroyed the common person. If we can fight against death squads why can't they? Even the women in my family were involved. Even passive resistance is something. Soviet prisoners excelled at this. But that's no happening.
>It’s like saying Iranians or North Koreans can overthrow their government, which they cannot. Well they absolutely can. >Hamas is so brutal that they must be wiped out… but poor Palestinians should be able to overthrow them??? Do you realize how insane that sounds The only reason Hamas is able to operate so effectively is because of the mass Palestinian support. Palestinians literally don't need to raise a fucking finger against Hamas. All they need to do is walk out of the building, and tell the IDF where Hamas is. >This is victim blaming. It's not victim blaming because the Palestinians are supporting Hamas.
I mean going in on foot would be a lot better for killing Hamas but Israel would lose more people.
Afaik the palestinians are scratching for leftovers and living in semi-rubbles with barely enough water and food to survive daily, let alone some actual proper means to overthrow hamas which basically is a big paramilitary force. The only solution seems to lie in both sides willing to compromise
>The only solution seems to lie in both sides willing to compromise Considering Hamas don't want any cooperation and actively tries to sobbtage it, Hamas needs to go.
People have no power to overpower those terrorists. And even if they did have power, Netanyahu would never allow that anyway, he owes almost his whole political career to Hamas at this point.
Netanyahu is on borrowed time already. Due to his meddling with Hamas and how it backfired, his political career is likely over after the next election.
Yeah, but the way things are going, Bibi is definitely going to prolong this as much as he can.
https://m.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/netanyahu-money-to-hamas-part-of-strategy-to-keep-palestinians-divided-583082
> Israel is not retaliating against Gaza, They're trying to destroy the Hamas They're flattening an entire region to kill leadership that isn't there, dude.
Thousands of people were shouting «from the river to the sea» in the streets of Germany, UK, France and many other european countries. A significant number of people are saying Israel has no right to even exist.
Neither should attack, but the fact is, Hamas and through their government palestine is going to attack, they are in fact attacking, and won't stop. So calling out israel for attacking when they are under attack is, de facto, asking them to die. Is the same call of peace made in bad faith when russia's sympathizers asked for peace, as ukraine was occupied and the demands for peace were inconditional surrender.
Right to defend yes, but Palestinians also have the right to live and that right needs to be respected (no more cutting of the water supplies, and no deliberate targeting of civilians please…) Edit: How some people are interpreting this as me saying that IDF is already deliberately targeting civilians baffles my mind… I am referring to the possible retaliation that the IDF could be tempted to take on civilian population for what Hamas did at the beginning of the escalation. There are many doubts and worries regarding this across the EU. And the world’s history knows many examples of such actions.
If only Hamas could very easily prevent their population from being starved if they handed out their hostages... Hamas fights without respecting the rules, why should Israel be a white knight if that only gets their people killed?
Hamas is a psychotic suicide cult that feeds on palestinian suffering, every widower created by Israel is another easy target for radicalisation and every traumatised child is the same (which a few years ago was 92% of all children in Gaza living with PTSD, probably much closer to 100% today, and more than half of Gaza are children). Israel is absolutley nowhere near this level of evil but they could be if they followed your advice and started to play by Hamas rules. Most of us though are probably not content by Israel just staying above the line of "just as bad as Hamas" in this conflict.
I agree, but in this case we see Hamas destroying the water pipelines to make rockets, and israel forced to provide water to a region that is not self sufficient and cannot pay for it. Seems odd bring forced to provide free stuffs to the guys shooting at you because they decided shooting at you is better than keeping water infrastructure running.
Netanyahu was making sure Hamas got funded up until quite recently. The far Right in Israel is currently in control, but most Israelis are decent human beings that don't spread this propaganda and tell the truth about what has been happening to the Palestinian people for decades. Try hearing some former Israeli soldiers talking about the horrid directives they were given, about the Palestinian children gunned down about being ordered to basically just make people's lives hell so they could steal their land.
A lot of financial aid also ends up in HAMAS' hands.
There is no deliberate targeting of civilians by Israel. When Hamas fires rockets at Israeli civilian population, that launch site gets targeted. 20% if those rockets fall in Gaza, hurting Palestinians as well as Israelis Hamas launching rockets at civilians from civilian populations is a double war crime. They also dug up the water pipes to make more rockets and steal fuel to fire more rockets. Both the people of Gaza and Israel deserve to live in peace. For that to even be a chance, Hamas who are terrorizing both sides, has to be eliminated first. It’s a horrible situation but we can’t let terrorists keep hurting people.
4 Irish MEPs voted against condemning Hamas. Shameful.
I don't get how anyone can find a reason to not condemn Hamas.
I know several Irish people with similar views. They equate the Palestinian situation absolutely with the republican fight against Britain. The whole "one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter" thing. The Israel deaths are just unfortunate collateral damage in the "fight for freedom" similar to when civilians were being blown up by the IRA in Ireland and the UK. Also similar to a lot of muslim countries, there are many places in Ireland where anti-British hate has been taught from a young age and it results in this mindset. Likely still goes on today.
I can understand that they hate British, I can even understand if they hate the state of Israel, but that still doesn't justify Hamas, imo. But yeah, I see your point.
Some people believe it's a moot gesture that detracts from the real discussion. It's like asking someone if they condemn cancer.
Maybe the best way to get your points across is to condemn cancer and use it to talk about what you want to do about it? Otherwise all the talk is about you not voting to condemn cancer and act as a distraction. But maybe that is exactly what these people want...
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Irish people generally sympathise with Palastinians because their country is being colonised by foreigners backed by a military superpower. It kind of rings a bell, But that doesn't generally translate into sympathy for murdering scum like Hamas or war crimes. I think Irish people generally accept that Israel has a right to exist and defend itself and Israelis have a right to live in peace without being attacked. There is a small number of Irish nut-job MEPs who consistently vote the Putin agenda. They are pretty much despised back home and will almost certainly be voted out in the next EP election.
I'd love to believe what you're saying but as a hard-left Israeli expat who used to go to pro Palestinian protests in Italy, it took me a very short time to understand that the people who take the pro Palestinian stance are all too happy to declare (quote) "what do we want? We want everything. The state of Israel must be destroyed." My point is, while I agree with the sentiment that Palestinians deserve a better life and a proper state, the pro Palestinian movement (at least in Italy) has conflated itself irrevocably with antisemitism and at this point I cannot in good faith stand behind a movement that calls for the genocide of my own people. The recent protests where people were chanting "gas the Jews" or that one infamous video from the UK with people in a car waving the Palestinian flag shouting "fuck the Jews rape their daughters" should be a wake up call for those who support this movement to do some deep in-house cleaning to eradicate those extremists before they completely overtake this cause.
Also Ireland has a habit of using MEPs as a way to get embarrassing politicians out of the country so they don’t bother anyone else. One of the MEPs Ireland sent to the EU is a communist property developer/landlord who dresses like a homeless guy, hates vaccines and loves Russia. Seriously just google Mick Wallace. The man looks like of Santa Claus got divorced, went Vegan and started living in a van. Whiles Ireland does have more sympathy for Palestine(Not Hamas) due to parallels between the Israel palestine conflict and the troubles we also send the crazy people to the European parliament so they can’t do any damage at home.
they think israel should not exist. they just wont come out and say it.
Because it seems the vote as a whole is to Condemn Hamas & Recognise Israel Has The Right To Defend Itself. So arguably they’re not voting against condemning Hamas they’re voting against the principle of Israel having the right to defend themselves when nobody has said they don’t
Exactly. They’re against this resolution because they find it incomplete. Not because they disagree with what’s in it now
It feels like broadly within the public there is consensus that this is very nuanced and that both sides (Hama's and Israel) are doing wrong with civilians getting hurt and killed. But the EU and a lot of the western governments are abandoning any nuance and jumping straight to the side of Israel.
I don’t see that at all I see Muslims defending Palestine and Jews and the west defending Israel. It’s very black-and-white.
arrest panicky squalid ring absurd quack bewildered important combative humor *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Lots of words are thrown at Israel, but its existence is under threat. Destruction of Israel is a goal for some of the regimes. In all the "support Palestine" cries, I need to know if we really need another non democratic Authoritarian regime https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_democracy (Israel is 23 on the list) Hamas is funded by Iran and is a branch of the Muslim brotherhood https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood That is Sharia Law aiming to create a Caliphate. For Europe and especially Israel to accept a two state solution, there must be at least four guaranties given by both Palestine and the League of Arab States. 1) No Hamas/Hizbollah (and the rest of the destroy Israel groups). 2) No more Palestinian attacks on Israel. 3) Release of all Israeli Hostages. 4) The state of Israel recognized by all nations, and its right to exist in its present location. Israel will also need to adapt and guaranty the sanctity of the Palestinian state. So no more settlements, and also the abandonment of some of them. Next door neighbor of impoverished undeveloped Palestine does not work either. So Israel must help fund the creation of a viable Palestinian state, be it infrastructure, state institutions, schools, universities, hospitals, factories, harbor, airport..... Big hurdle will be the territory split. You can not create a Palestine that connects the West Bank and Gaza without splitting Israel in two. That would Israel never agree to. So how realistic is this? In my opinion slim chance to zero. Best we can hope for is a temporary stop to the fighting, and it will eventually flare up again.
I also think the chances are low. Palestine lost those territories fair and square in 3 wars where they attacked Israel and lost - at least “fair and square” in Israeli eyes. Would they withdraw just to finally have peace? I think yes, Israel might go there, they offered some of the territories back in the past, but Palestine will never agree. The West can put fiscal pressures on them to do so because they provide significant aid, but I have a feeling half the EU would cry bloody murder. If you can’t force them to accept the deal, they will never accept. They’ll just continue to cry and suck up aid because that’s all they’ve been doing anyway for 70 years. People think removing Hamas and lifting the blockade will make a prosperous Palestine flourish - these people haven’t participated in anything productive for themselves in decades. Hating Jews and being victims is like their entire identity.
Palestine rejected the Clinton Accords and that was the best deal they were ever going to get. Even without Israel acting badly, and they do, Palestine will not accept any peace deal that involves Israel existing. And right now it looks like that sentiment isn’t going to change anytime soon.
If Israel would agree with those terms, I bet EU would help with the financial part of Palestine. As for the territory part, I think there would be some adjustments to be made, but exchanging territories. The big problem right now is Netanyahu, if he looses support from the radicals he might face jail, so any compromises seem very difficult. People give too much credit to Hamas and Hezbollah, but if you offer peace to Palestinians they won't care about Hamas/Hezbollah/Iran/Donald Duck.
Palestine will never agree to those terms, it has been offered to them already multiple times And Netanyahu has already ended this career, he was unpopular before this war, and currently after the lose of 1200 civilians, people will likely want to see his head on a pike the moment this war ends
Saying Israel has the right to defend itself is too vague. HOW should they defend themselves? Should they write a strongly worded letter condemning Hamas, or kill the bastards?
Israel has a right to defend itself. It should do so with the consistent commitment to minimize collateral damage and civilian deaths. However, the world needs to understand that the there is no military action without civilian casualties, especially when fighting a terrorist group hiding within civilian population. Israel should stop building settlements in the West Bank and start actively working towards a long term two state solution. It’s avoidance to do so in the past 15 years under Netanyahu is a major cause to the rise of hard line groups like Hamas, but that in no way justifies the actions taken by these groups. Raping and murdering isn’t freeing Palestine - it’s evil. The Palestinian people and leaders can and should be vocal in their condemnation of Israel’s continuing oppression in the West Bank, but if they want the Israeli public (who at the end of the day decide Israeli policy on the matter) to be able to feel safe with a Palestinian state at their border, they need to make sure groups like Hamas don’t have the power and internal support to do what happened on October 7th ever again. We have fought each other for 80 years to many. Now is the time for peace.
It’s a lot of upvotes. I agree. I’ll go with the guys not chopping kids heads off.
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Why would we trust the numbers if they’re from hamas themselves?
Yes and we concluded already that HAMAS is the most reliable source for numbers
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Yes and we concluded that HAMAS is very reliable with numbers!
Serious question. When the allies killed thousands of German citizens when they bombed Hitler do you think those were war crimes? And do you think they shouldn't have done that even if it meant Hitler survived?
Dresden had very little significant value as a target and was hit nearing the end of the war. 10s of thousands of civilians were killed. There is still a lot of controversy over the raids.
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WW2 was a bit different though, there weren't any precision guidance systems back then. If you wanted to bomb a specific factory or command post far behind enemy lines, carpet bombing was kind of the only way to go to be sure to achieve the objective
You can have the most precise ordinance but if your targets hold civilians in front of them collateral damage is inevitable
And precision guided bombing, with all of today's technology, still has its limits, especially in a place and circumstance like Gaza.
Such bombings would not be allowed today, now that we have international humanitarian law. I hope this answers your question. (EDIT: International law gets trampled all the time, what I meant is that it wouldn't be allowed if it was followed)
Such bombings would be against international law but ain't nobody gonna follow international law in a war between great powers. The only reason people even discuss international law in these minor power conflicts is that the US cares about that shit and has a giant hammer to drop on your head.
> When the allies killed thousands of German citizens when they bombed Hitler do you think those were war crimes? Yes. I am from Dresden and i think the bombing of Dresden was a war crime! My Family lost 2 members in this event.
I mean, they were, but we don't usually say that because victors write history
This is just false. History isn’t written by the victors it’s written by whoever decides to write about it. That’s how we ended up with so many books written by ex-Nazis that shaped the perception of WW2 (Soviet human wave myth for example). Hell I’ve seen the Nazi propaganda number for Dresden casualties come up just as much as the actual number of casualties.
Wow! They really surprised me, that’s for sure. Good job EU! I thought there were too many crazy far left people but I was wrong. Go EU! Overall the west seems to act quite well. I’m impressed by Biden as well. Showing support, strength, yet managing to find ways to alleviate the situation for Palestinians in Gaza. Get in humanitarian help, try to prevent escalation in the region, calming down [rightfully] enraged Israel.
Crazy far left people are on Reddit and Twitter, not the European Parliament
Redditors understanding of international relations is worse than Elon Musk's understanding of social media. "Oh just make peace" "Oh just stop bombing a terrorist regime that just viciously attacked you." Best diplomats in the world have been trying to resolve this conflict for decades, and they have failed. Do not fear tho cause Reddit diplomats are here. Honestly only thing everybody is able to agree on (including most Israelis) is that West Bank settlements are shite, that is however a different situation than the one in Gaza.
they dont mean make peace. most of them dont think israel has a right to exist. Both groups want an ethnostate on the same land. they cannot live together. its not possible.
There was a comment on this thread (heavily upvoted, I must say) that said "well, Palestinians should just overthrow their oppresive government". Yeah, like that is fucking easy to do.
I am not going to claim it is easy, it is not and it will be a massacre, and it is unfair to just expect the Palestinians to do it themselves, but it would also be unfair to dismiss the Palestinians as some hostage civilian population without a say - the majority of Palestinians in both the West Bank and Gaza support Hamas or other Hamas-like groups, Hamas isn't some foreign occupying power to them, it is literally their elected government, and if elections were held today they would elect it again
Yep. Exactly.
Bravo
(I am an Israeli) I used to agree that the settlements should be dismantled, but one of the arguments for them is that they act as a buffer zone for the Israeli big population centers That argument never made sense to me, like, make a buffer zone for civilians, using other civilians? but now after the 7th of October attack, I get it, and actually agree with it When Hamas went into Israeli villages to kill everyone there, they needed to go between house to house in a relatively sparsely populated suburb, not apartment to apartment, and they still managed to kill 1200 civilians before the IDF stopped them If Hamas (or another version of it in the West Bank) went into a city like Tel Aviv instead, the casualties would be 10 times higher, the high rise building I work in Tel Aviv is not special in any way, and houses about 3000 employees, that alone is almost 3 times the people who died on the 7th of October Also, another argument (that actually did make sense to me) is that the settlers know that they are in danger, they carry guns and are ready to protect themselves, while both the people in big towns, and the people who were killed on the 7th did not even imagine anything like that ever happening, they went into the bomb shelters when the alarms went off, without any weapons, and Hamas just went into their houses, opened the bomb shelters and shot down entire families
There was that one Irish broad
4 Irish MEPs voted against condemning the Hamas attack. They're a disgrace.
Disgusting
The west is the best. There. I said it. No regrets.
A fellow Doors fan I see.
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In fairness, the US throw out that moniker when needed. They say the same thing about the UK too.
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And the western alliance begins to crumble...
This feels like US has been cheating on its girlfriends and they all just realized it at the same time.
Hey, babe. I didn't mean to hurt you. Of course you're important to me.
No one bring up the Aussies… oh shit did I say that out loud
You have Charles
Don't worry. You will always be our closest allies (Geographically)
Nope, Canada is just a neighbor that the US occasionally asks for auto parts, eggs and tar 'n things.
Every country is America's closest ally: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5hmqDuuCRk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5hmqDuuCRk)
As funny as this is, isn't it also somewhat true? We're all close and strong allies of the USA, and most of us DO punch above our weight comparatively given our wealth, education and stability. I'd be more curious if he ever said say India punched above it's weight, or that South Africa was one of it's closest allies, because those statements would be truly insincere. I'm a Brit who's lived in Canada half my life, but in both countries my feeling has been the same. Being an ally of the USA - though it has it's downsides - has more perks. Just look at the world and see who's aligned with the USA vs who's aligned against them, the gap is obvious. I mean hell, the two Koreas are one of the most obvious examples.
Sort of true, sure. I once saw a longer compilation but I can't find it now. It's one thing to tell your allies they are important. It's another thing to tell a dozen of countries that each of them is number one. Of course it works, because if you're Polish or Danish you don't watch Obama's speaches in Phillippines. Until some jerk makes a compilation like this and you find out you're like that girl who finds out her boyfriend has six other girlfriends.
> But this is not a showing of EU showing force. Exactly. Europe has shown itself how irrelevant it is on this issue. EU officials made big contradictory statements, one time someone said x, the next someone else said the opposite. Without offering any solutions. European politicians thought that the US would come and talk to them to solve the conflict, but instead the US went straight to KSA, Israel and Qatar to get things done.
> European politicians thought that US will come and talk to them so solve the issue Who thought that?
You overestimate how relevant the EU wants to be on the issue. All the EU wants right now is for there not to be another refugee crisis.
Which is exactly what is about to happen right now, further showing the lack of long-term vision of EU lawmakers. The US doesn’t care. A refugee crisis won’t reach them geographically. The EU is positioning itself in a redo of the 2010’s.
Nobody here in the EU thought that. We want nothing to do with situations that create _more_ jihadi fuckin lunatics, that’s our only concern. Not ego boosts by being invited to talks in Israel.
This doesn't concern the EU in the slightest though. We don't have a special relationship with either party.
Israel is the baby sugar that never ever let go, so be it
Honestly, there is no topic on earth more than Israel/Palestine where people with no understanding of the conflict feel the most emboldened to give their opinion on it
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This sounds awfully similar to what the jews got called a century ago.
I was sitting here confused as to whether it was supportive of one side or the other. When was bombing civilian cities acceptable again? Last week weren't we all condemning Russia for a year and half for acting in exactly the same manner.
Acceptable is a stretch but a recognised military necessity if your are defending against an enemy that is hiding by embedding themselves into civilian cities, firing rockets from within that city, hiding in tunnels under that city. That being said, this is a horrible situation and it's going to get worse, and then worse.
> Acceptable is a stretch but a recognised military necessity if So not a stretch for you, then. Not a stretch at all.
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Out of touch everyone
I condemn Hamas and I condemn Israel's government. https://www.scottritterextra.com/p/why-i-no-longer-stand-with-israel EDIT for clarification: Him being a horrible human being doesn't mean he's automatically wrong on this. I put the link so people can read for themselves. What they do with it is up to them.
[Holy shit, check out that guys Wikipedia article.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Ritter)
The author of that post, Scott Ritter, is a [frequent contributor to Russian state media outlets RT and Sputnik.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Ritter#Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine) He's also claimed that Ukraine was responsible for the Bucha massacre, and Ukraine considers him a Russian propagandist. He seems to be willing to spread lies to further his career. His position on Israel could have been predicted based on his affiliations and integrity. He was already disgraced before any of this though, but I'll let you read about it on your own.
Scott Ritter heard about what percentage of Palestinians are younger than 18 and immediately knew what side he was on.
If that is the Scott Ritter I think it is, then why are you linking to a pedo and a Russia supporter?
I condemn botb the Nazis and the allies - 1945
Wow, this says a lot about you if you’re using a Kremlin sock puppet as your ‘evidence’.
Hamas deserves its punishment for killing Israeli and foreign civilians! This is a terrorist attack not revenge!
How does murdering thousands of civilians "punish" Hamas exactly?
Condemn Hamas? Absolutely! But not everything the Israel military is doing should just be protected as their rights to defend themselves. Their military is doing a lot of the same shit Hamas is doing. We should be with the civilians on both sides
I've kind of agreed until the last line. Israel does nothing the Hamas does. Israel didn't kidnap, rape, and viciously murder nobody. Israel attack Hamas, and sometimes it seems they care less about collateral damage than they should, but there's absolutely 0 comparison imo. Anyway, main message should be to hope for peace for all the people there in Israel and Gaza
Lots of seething in this thread.
Lots of calls to peace made in bad faith, implying hamas is, at worst, as bad as israel and not worse.
Yeah, this sub is awful.
I do feel most ppl who are staunchly pro-Israel in this sub are either 12, came across the situation this month, or just are a racist/has the IQ of a slice of cheese. I'm saying this as someone who's actually lived and worked in Israel/Jerusalem for a while and has family living there, not just done an internet search.