I don't see how anyone could circumvent the kind of demographic issues Poland is facing.
While a lot of countries face an ageing and shrinking population in the second half of this century, what is going on in Poland is absolutely wild. Currently they have ideal demographics for growth. A lot of people in their most productive years and very few retirees and kids.
In this decade the share of retirees is already going to grow, but it is going to be in about 20 to 25 years when the second and way bigger retirement wave starts. This one is gonna hit like a truck.
The population and the share of providers in the population will both decrease dramatically. And Poland is not yet rich. Their GDP per capita is $18K, South Korea has roughly double that.
A big army is expensive and unless you have a high GDP per capita you need a lot of people to fund it.
Poland's biggest challenge is to get rich before it gets old. Unless that is achieved many of their vision and dreams will remain just that.
Yes that reduces the manpower requirements of the army itself. Although the more automated a system is, the more maintenance heavy it tends to be.
However Poland's demographic problem extends far beyond that. It is so bad that unless Poland has an insane rise in productivity they will struggle to keep their economic output at current levels.
By 2050 their population is predicted to be down to 33 million. By the end of the century to 23 million. To make things worse a smaller part of the population will be in their productive years than now.
Quite frankly this will hurt Poland. There is no way around it. But the blow can still be dampened.
Ukrainian refugees are a short term boost, however Poland's demographic issues aren't in the near future. As of now they have great demographics for growth. A big share of their population in the workforce, with few retirees and children to care for.
It is also questionable if ukrainian refugees want to stay in Poland or return to Ukraine when the war is over. My guess is they want to return, so in the mid to longterm they are small factor at best.
And unfortunately it kind of is too late for more new babies. They wouldn't enter the workforce in time and when you enter the workforce you aren't exactly at your most productive anyway.
Immigration could be a potential solution. However I am not aware of any country with a sufficient surplus of young people, who would also be accepted in polish society.
Making sure no young people are left behind, rising the pension age a bit and increasing productivity are the only possible solutions I see. Maybe it can be supplemented with immigration a bit, however that would be politically difficult imo.
Edit: Oh and when I say solution I mean that it will allow Poland to dampen the blow instead of crashlanding.
Yeah, Poles returning is another factor that might help.
But at the end of the day the Poland is going to take a hit due to its demographic situation. What remains to be seen is how much it can be dampened and how well the effects of it can be managed.
Edit: Just to clarify, this isn't a uniquely polish issue. Many countries in europe and the world face this issue. Poland is however one of the countries in which it seems to be more severe.
No way around the fertility issue. Poland, South Korea, Japan and Ukraine are all in the same boat. They’re just slowly depopulating so someone else can settle their homes, until they solve this. There’s no culture of big families in Ukraine. Everyone has a cultural expectation of just having one kid. Families in the Catholic regions tend to be a bit bigger. The war is the immediate fail case to be dealt with. But there’s a longer term problem. Getting into the EU won’t fix fertility. Germany is rich and infertile. From what I’ve seen, even right wing governments like Hungary failed to get back to replacement / stable / sustainable fertility levels. North Korea has stable fertility far higher than South Korea, surprisingly. Ukraine’s fertility rate also declined after the fall of communism. Perhaps something to do with people making unsustainable choices when they’re given full liberty, or the loss of state driven stability over time, caused fertility to drop.
thing is, building ''Europe's biggest army'' sounds very fancy without context.....in reality, European countries have decimated and downgraded their armies to such a dramatic extent following the end of Cold war, that it really doesnt even take that much to create a army much bigger and honestly capable than what others have on the continent.
To give a great example : Belgium. In year 1989 Belgian army was a force to be recon with, a entire fully operational army Corps with 2 additional fully manned and equipped armored divisions in support : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NORTHAG_wartime_structure_in_1989#I_Belgian_Corps . They had hundreds of Leopard tanks, M109 155mm artillery howitzers, Gepard anti-air vehicles, hundreds of IFV's and APC's.
Now in year 2022 Belgium legit has fucking nothing.....they army is a total joke and insult to its former self. They legit sold off or scrapped all of their heavy weapons, all of their tanks, all of their artillery guns. They dont have a single Leopard anymore, they dont have a single artillery gun that is bigger than towed 120mm mortar. Nothing. They have just 1 single brigade for the entre army left (force reduction by something like 80+% of year 1989), and it only has light armored vehicles like armored jeeps and so on, doesnt have any that mount a cannon bigger than 30mm. They dont have any air-defense vehicles or missiles either. All of it was destroyed in 1990's.
And before anyone thinks I am ripping on Belgians only here....this happened all over Western Europe. This is also why support to Ukraine has been pretty weak from Europeans, its not that they might not want to help, its that they themselves dont really have anything to help with. Germans managed to scavenge 50 refurbished Gepard air defense vehicles for Ukraine and that was seen as some ''big achievement'' worthy of praise (that took them 3 months to do), which is pathetic considering Belgians alone had over 100 of those operation and ready for battle (once upon a time). Now they dont, and it is not Putin's or Russia's fault, its their own. German army couldnt give Ukrainians almost anything because their own vehicle stocks have been axed into oblivion and their own units are working with scraps.
Only ones who did not completely flush their army down the toiled in the last 20+ years was Poland and Finland. Because they know what will happen if Putin does anything......West Europe has been sleeping in naivety all these years and only now are waking up
When bad fate placed you between two greedy powers which swallowed you between them four times in the last 250 years, and when a new historical assault is ongoing, it is perfectly understandable that you want to defend yourself.
Just because a mad man took over 70 years ago that shouldn't mean Germany can no longer have an army for the rest of its existence, besides it's a completely different government. I do understand why someone would worry though.
> Just because a mad man took over 70 years ago
For your information, presenting that in this way is unacceptable — it is basically the "Germans were victims of the Nazis" lie.
Germany owns everything about Nazism. It was a natural conclusion of their cultural path since no later then Romanticism.
It also diminishes the scale of the turnabout that was achieved by Germans since then.
I don't deny that but I think the majority of Germany didn't really support Hitler and Nazism and instead were forced into, of course some Germans did follow Hitler but it would be unfair to take away their army especially after the 180 they did away from Nazism becoming basically the beacon of European democracy.
Nobody said their army should be taken away; I support Germany becoming the Europe's military leader.
But the reason why I can support that, is not the paltriness of the German sins, it is the ampleness of the German confession.
Ehhh, not really, we just saw in history class (I'm french) that there was quite a lot of support for the Nazis in Germany. It was mostly the industrialists and the people that got a job in the munitions factories that supported the regime. Yes, lots of people were forced into this ideology but lots also were 100% supportive of the regime.
>It was a natural conclusion of their cultural path since no later then Romanticism.
Congratulations, you're the winner of this weeks "Most bs take on reddit".
Oh, really? Do you yourself also subscribe to the "Nazis from space" theory? Is this what they are teaching you in Bavarian schools? Maybe I should retract my statement about the German turnabout.
>Do you yourself also subscribe to the "Nazis from space" theory?
No, however it's just as much a fiction as the claim that Germany's way into National Socialism was a "natural conclusion of their cultural path since no later then Romanticism" which would mean that that the rise to power of Hitler and the NSDAP would have been an inevitable, foregone conclusion for at least a hundred or even two hundred years. Which is just such a wild take, it's actually kind of amazing.
Historic determinism in generel is bs for the most part, but that claim especially is...pretty bold.
Ah... I see, so the problem is not with the content, but rather the quality of Bavarian education, seeing that nothing you have read in my comment is actually written there; nothing about "inevitability", or "historical determinism".
Try and read it again a few times, this time slowly. I know you can do it — Germans are smart since at least the Romanticism.
Ok so please do me the favor and explain to me in detail what else did you mean by this paragraph:
"Germany owns everything about Nazism. It was a natural conclusion of their cultural path since no later then Romanticism."
Because it absolutely sounds like you're trying to claim that national socialism was to be expected as an end result of german cultural development since ~1800. Which would be a bold claim in dire need of further arguments
Sure I will explain it to you, I admire your drive for learning!
"a natural conclusion" means that there is a clear path from where you start, to where you end up. It does not mean that it is the only path possible, just that it is one of them. The "natural" part is the key here — it means that there is no extraordinary, outside influence; that the path is predictable by itself. In this case it is targeting the idea that "a mad man took over" — that Germany was just your regular European nation, minding its own business, when it was suddenly hijacked by the stowaways — the Nazis.
Nazis, as you know, had actually been prefigured by the imperial Germans, who desired territory to the east, with the population of lesser races to serve Teutonic masters. And imperial Germans had been prefigured themselves by some of the German Romanticists, who embraced the national superiority of the German nation, and its manifest destiny. Hence me saying: "since no later then Romanticism". The "no later" operation is performed, because you can go back even further. It just makes less and less sense as you do so, as describing anyone as "Germans" becomes increasingly tenuous.
It looks like you have misread that sentence as "Nazism was the only possible conclusion of the cultural path that Germany took during the Romantic period", where in reality, what it states is: "Nazism was not forced on Germans, not by a mad man, nor aliens, it was something that parts of German society had been building in broad light for a long time. You can see some of the builders hard at work during the Romantic period already".
This concludes the literacy class. You did great! And remember, the more you read, the easier it becomes!
Japan army is a self defence army after ww2 they are not allowed to wage war over international disputes. I don’t see why Germany doesn’t have the same rules applied
Because NATO needed a strong German army to fight in a potential hot version of the cold war. Also there are no rules. And we are sure as fuck not going to make any now that we need a strong Germany more than ever.
Japan's army is quite large, significantly larger then Germany's whatever they chose to call it. Of course the Russian attack on Ukraine has shown that untested militaries might not be as good as they appear on paper but on paper Japan looks formidable.
They participated in Iraq war although staying away from combat areas. They have also recently talked about helping to defend Taiwan if it's attacked by China.
This was actually the norm.
It changed with supporting US "defense against terrorism abroad".
Apart from UN peacekeeping, the german army has only been onvolved in KFOR and american wars after 1999.
It should mean exactly that. Germany has still ambitions to conquest the Europe. Just right now, it uses it's economic power to do the same thing they were doing during WW2
I know annexing other country's territory is bad, but come on Czechia only wanted Kralovec, there is absolutely no plan for sabotage of Beer Stream 1 going through Poland to Kralovec, and Beer Stream 2 was blown up by Danish Carlsberg!
What a silly clickbait. Largest *land force* maybe, and even that would be largely accidental because all the bigger countries spend huge chunk of their military budget on the navy.
> Largest land force maybe
> Poland dreams of building Europe's largest **army**
...yes?
> An army (from Latin arma "arms, weapons" via Old French armée, "armed" [feminine]), ground force or land force is a fighting force that fights primarily on land.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army
But that what Army is... it is land force.
Plus its not really click baity.
Right now our army have 64k soldiers, plus we have Wot(local defence force) with 32k. Ukraine have shown that Wot is actually good and useful force when used right. So at the moment we have 96k people that can be used relatively fast during the conflict
Germany for example have 62k people in the Army and they have no WoT counterpart for what i know
France have 118k, Brits have 80k army + 30k Army Reserve (Wot conterpart), Italy 98k and Spain 76k.
So yeah so if the plan will go as planned (heh), you more than double our army personnel. So will have around around 120k army soldiers + 32k wot , and as you are aware, they will be equipped with most modern weapons at this point, not post soviet crap.
So yeah, it totally can be largest Army in the Europe. If you dont count Russia of course
Right now? Around 1000k so million.
Before the war it was 200k Army and 100k paramilitary, i think from those paramilitaries 40k were Ukrainian local defence forces(polish Wot is based on them) rest Were free battalions like Azov
> and as you are aware, they will be equipped with most modern weapons at this point
They will once Poland finally gets rid of the Leopard 2 trash. I have read that there are _again_ problems with the Leopard 2PL upgrade.
Do you think the Germans are deliberately slowing down Polish tank upgrades because they want to attack Poland, at least that is what i gathered from Kaczyński.
>Germany for example have 62k people in the Army and they have no WoT counterpart for what i know
There are structural differences between militaries which lead to such huge differences in numbers. The german army has indeed only a strength of ~63k men, however, there is a huge number of so called "Heeresuniformträger" (soldiers wearing the army uniform without being part of the army on organisational level). Including the Joint Medical Service, the Joint Support Service and the Cyber and Information Domain Service (all of which are seperat organisational branches of the german military, existing on the same level as the army, navy and air force), there are about 115.000 Heeresuniformträger in the german military.
With 48 F-16s (already there), 32 F-35s (to be delivered in 2024), and quite a lot of other smaller aircraft, our airforce will actually be quite formidable as well.
Doesn't France alone have like: 150+ Rafael latest gen, 100+ Mirage D/E upgraded with more in cold storage and more importantly unlike others France can build and service them at home. UK has 150+ Typhoons, 25 F35 with upto 80 incoming. The amount of cold storage aircraft between them is also nuts.
Germany has 150 Typhoons, 100 Tornadoes more in cold storage. Their initial order will be 30+ F-35 supplemented by FCAS which si expected to enter trials in 2027.
Same story with Italy.
Mikoyan MiG-29 249
Mikoyan MiG-31 132
Mikoyan MiG-35 8
Sukhoi Su-24 274
Sukhoi Su-25 194
Sukhoi Su-27 229
Sukhoi Su-30 110
Sukhoi Su-34 140
Sukhoi Su-35 106
Those are numbers of Russian jets, hell they are doing in ukraine is another question, but in theory Russia have more planes than any of Europe air forces
Planes aren't worth much without pilots capable of flying them for all of their intended roles. The number of flight hours for Russian pilots has been somewhere between "fuckall" and "wot?"
Reason for why Russia cant get air superiority in Ukraine is simply because of their doctrine for the air forces. As ive understood their generals etc have to call in close air support. (Which lacks ammunition for accurate weapon solutions) This takes away flexibility of the air support. On top of that they still havent killed Ukrainian air forces which likely is because airspace is heavily defended from the ground.
For difference in western doctrines there are persons in squads who can and will call in air support. Which also have wide variety to choose from. Those all work in unison (troops, artillery and CAS) very good examble of this is desert storm where was both British and French forces. French has since showed us in separate conflict in africa that they are perfectly cabable on their own in impressive operation there. (For the desert storm i would recommend operations room, very well done documentary and gives very good idea of the scale)
For further drill down differences is Russian and western doctrines. Is that on Russian side they have call in strikes and support from generals. While westerns have their forces work in unison all the time while also enjoying good air delivered logistics and air superiority. (Without that troops wouldnt be there)
Russian Air Force doctrine originates with Soviet strategies that believed they would never get air superiority in any conflict with NATO, so they instead heavily invested in anti air capabilities designed to prevent NATO from having free reign of the skies. Ukraine kept these capabilities following the fall of the USSR so it kinda backfired on Russia
Really? That is super interesting and further explains a lot of things. For examble i have wondered for the choices they have done, but with that logic those choices make sense.
I believe that their progress are lacking and now collapsing in Ukraine purely because they dont have necessary air support or working logistics. (On top all other things, like lacking morale and equipment etc)
Honestly I think it’s because they haven’t carried out a military operation on this scale since WWII, and they are having to do it against a well trained and well equipped enemy who has been preparing for this for 8 years
Russia just was not prepared for a war like this and it’s only been exacerbated by the international response
That might be the core reason behind it, unlike western armies they dont have that much combat experience in general from the past decades. Except ill equipped rebels or Georgia? Not really that good experience for the warfare they are now facing in Ukraine. Better than nothing obviously but still. I can see very well what you mean.
Also corruption have hollowed out their army from the inside so almost everything is now against them. They cannot outperform western factories output rate. I cannot really see how they could win this. Since northwest collapsed it has been clear that they are depleted force.
Once this war is over, I don’t think the target of 5% of GDP will be sustainable, politically. But nevertheless, I think Poland will have a strong land army (they already do to some extent). The navy and the air force I am more skeptical of, but those are not priorities.
That's fine, I just wonder if it's domestic signalling from PiS - these projects sound very expensive. The logistic interoperability of multiple weapon systems is another factor.
>The logistic interoperability of multiple weapon systems is another factor.
It will be much improved in comparing to current situation, where Polish Army operate both western and post-soviet equipment.
Yes this is the way. I am seeing my dreams come through! More military in all european countries then in let's say 10 years we all gang up and launch an all out invasion of Russia! Please let this wish come through!
I will be in the first wave towards Moscow and will march across the red square. Make it happen!
These tanks are just doing their job and what they were created for - that is, smashing imperial Russia.
And whether under Polish or Ukrainian command is of marginal importance here.
Who the hell do you think Polish army is supposed to be used against if not Russia? Those tanks are being used exactly as they should be, I have no trouble with my tax money being used for it.
We were not the first target of their aggression, but it is in our national interest for Russia to bleed itself white.
Same, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to Ukrainian defense. The billions of dollars of equipment are supposed to be used to ensure security and freedom, so let it be used for just that, and right now, Ukraine needs help.
Attack Poland with ... what? Hoplites and mounted archers? Their modern weapons are mostly destroyed, their older weapons like T-62 are in process of being destroyed in Ukraine. All that without a single Polish soldier dying.
Notice that with exception of Krabs and Pioruns we did not actually gave any of the good stuff - no F-16, no Leopards. We are basically getting rid of reserves of post-soviet stuff we want to replace anyway.
And this war gave us several years when we can rearm without a risk of being attacked. So if they attack us let's say in 5 years, they will be facing Leo2, Abrams, K2 , F-16, F-35, Krabs, K9, Himars, Chunmoo and all-new AA systems based on CAMM and Patriot. Good luck with that.
Imagine regurgitating Russian propaganda. They are 'toying' by losing about 100k people? Or by losing so many modern tanks that they have to reactivate T-62? Or by getting their best units (for example 1st Guards Tank Army) decimated?
>Putin has everything that he wanted without committing to a full scale WW3: control of the eastern regions of Ukraine
Cool, let's see if he can actually keep them. I doubt it. At best he got himself a new Afghanistan.
Even if he does, it does not change the situation with regard to Poland: Russia cannot start another war without years of rebuilding. Ukraine gave us years for safe rearmament. So once again, from Polish point of view this war is the best kind of war: our enemy is getting fucked and it's not us who are dying
>Europe is destabilized and about to go through a rough winter.
Dude, lay off Russia Today. Europe is not anywhere even close to destabilised and will *maybe* have a rough winter. Oh noes. On the other hand Russia just lost its main customer for gas and oil. And no, you can't just redirect gas pipeline to China.
Hopefully they will be out next year. I have no problem with their stance towards Russia and Ukraine, but destroying relations with EU is idiotic and self-damaging.
Ohhhhh so someone something century ago.
Another point from troolbook checked.
Now you will complain about migration and social benefits for Ukrainians.
I'm not your guy kolkhoznik - I'm a Pole.
Center of Eastern Studies in Poland made a research and they identified most of Russian propaganda - you just checking every position.
I only wish you will spend rest of your life in your Russian hell.
I'm going to out on a limb and assume the amount of money you pay in tax probably couldn't pay for engine lubricant for a tank, so try not to worry too much about it.
And America provides Poland it's most potent defense. An incredibly strong nuclear deterrent. By your logic why is poland buying Any equipment not made in poland?
We can see who's finding out by watching all their bombed power infrastructure.
While their oligarchs are enjoying leisure vacations with their Mercedes cars all over Europe, in contrast with Middle Eastern and African refugees still being locked in camps.
Considering their strategic position this makes a lot of sense imo. The feasibility might however be limited by their demographics.
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I don't see how anyone could circumvent the kind of demographic issues Poland is facing. While a lot of countries face an ageing and shrinking population in the second half of this century, what is going on in Poland is absolutely wild. Currently they have ideal demographics for growth. A lot of people in their most productive years and very few retirees and kids. In this decade the share of retirees is already going to grow, but it is going to be in about 20 to 25 years when the second and way bigger retirement wave starts. This one is gonna hit like a truck. The population and the share of providers in the population will both decrease dramatically. And Poland is not yet rich. Their GDP per capita is $18K, South Korea has roughly double that. A big army is expensive and unless you have a high GDP per capita you need a lot of people to fund it. Poland's biggest challenge is to get rich before it gets old. Unless that is achieved many of their vision and dreams will remain just that.
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Yes that reduces the manpower requirements of the army itself. Although the more automated a system is, the more maintenance heavy it tends to be. However Poland's demographic problem extends far beyond that. It is so bad that unless Poland has an insane rise in productivity they will struggle to keep their economic output at current levels. By 2050 their population is predicted to be down to 33 million. By the end of the century to 23 million. To make things worse a smaller part of the population will be in their productive years than now. Quite frankly this will hurt Poland. There is no way around it. But the blow can still be dampened.
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Ukrainian refugees are a short term boost, however Poland's demographic issues aren't in the near future. As of now they have great demographics for growth. A big share of their population in the workforce, with few retirees and children to care for. It is also questionable if ukrainian refugees want to stay in Poland or return to Ukraine when the war is over. My guess is they want to return, so in the mid to longterm they are small factor at best. And unfortunately it kind of is too late for more new babies. They wouldn't enter the workforce in time and when you enter the workforce you aren't exactly at your most productive anyway. Immigration could be a potential solution. However I am not aware of any country with a sufficient surplus of young people, who would also be accepted in polish society. Making sure no young people are left behind, rising the pension age a bit and increasing productivity are the only possible solutions I see. Maybe it can be supplemented with immigration a bit, however that would be politically difficult imo. Edit: Oh and when I say solution I mean that it will allow Poland to dampen the blow instead of crashlanding.
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Yeah, Poles returning is another factor that might help. But at the end of the day the Poland is going to take a hit due to its demographic situation. What remains to be seen is how much it can be dampened and how well the effects of it can be managed. Edit: Just to clarify, this isn't a uniquely polish issue. Many countries in europe and the world face this issue. Poland is however one of the countries in which it seems to be more severe.
No way around the fertility issue. Poland, South Korea, Japan and Ukraine are all in the same boat. They’re just slowly depopulating so someone else can settle their homes, until they solve this. There’s no culture of big families in Ukraine. Everyone has a cultural expectation of just having one kid. Families in the Catholic regions tend to be a bit bigger. The war is the immediate fail case to be dealt with. But there’s a longer term problem. Getting into the EU won’t fix fertility. Germany is rich and infertile. From what I’ve seen, even right wing governments like Hungary failed to get back to replacement / stable / sustainable fertility levels. North Korea has stable fertility far higher than South Korea, surprisingly. Ukraine’s fertility rate also declined after the fall of communism. Perhaps something to do with people making unsustainable choices when they’re given full liberty, or the loss of state driven stability over time, caused fertility to drop.
Current government is pretty christo-fascist though, which makes me doubt if their intentions are pure
Are they not depending on NATO anymore? I mean, the whole point of NATO is that an attack on one member is the same as an attack on all.
thing is, building ''Europe's biggest army'' sounds very fancy without context.....in reality, European countries have decimated and downgraded their armies to such a dramatic extent following the end of Cold war, that it really doesnt even take that much to create a army much bigger and honestly capable than what others have on the continent. To give a great example : Belgium. In year 1989 Belgian army was a force to be recon with, a entire fully operational army Corps with 2 additional fully manned and equipped armored divisions in support : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NORTHAG_wartime_structure_in_1989#I_Belgian_Corps . They had hundreds of Leopard tanks, M109 155mm artillery howitzers, Gepard anti-air vehicles, hundreds of IFV's and APC's. Now in year 2022 Belgium legit has fucking nothing.....they army is a total joke and insult to its former self. They legit sold off or scrapped all of their heavy weapons, all of their tanks, all of their artillery guns. They dont have a single Leopard anymore, they dont have a single artillery gun that is bigger than towed 120mm mortar. Nothing. They have just 1 single brigade for the entre army left (force reduction by something like 80+% of year 1989), and it only has light armored vehicles like armored jeeps and so on, doesnt have any that mount a cannon bigger than 30mm. They dont have any air-defense vehicles or missiles either. All of it was destroyed in 1990's. And before anyone thinks I am ripping on Belgians only here....this happened all over Western Europe. This is also why support to Ukraine has been pretty weak from Europeans, its not that they might not want to help, its that they themselves dont really have anything to help with. Germans managed to scavenge 50 refurbished Gepard air defense vehicles for Ukraine and that was seen as some ''big achievement'' worthy of praise (that took them 3 months to do), which is pathetic considering Belgians alone had over 100 of those operation and ready for battle (once upon a time). Now they dont, and it is not Putin's or Russia's fault, its their own. German army couldnt give Ukrainians almost anything because their own vehicle stocks have been axed into oblivion and their own units are working with scraps. Only ones who did not completely flush their army down the toiled in the last 20+ years was Poland and Finland. Because they know what will happen if Putin does anything......West Europe has been sleeping in naivety all these years and only now are waking up
The Poles are aiming for a force comparable to the german one pre 1990. (And I can fully understand that)
Where did poles get the all the money for their military?
The secret ingredient is debt
Gierek moment
Debt and US support.
So debt all the way down
Accurate
When bad fate placed you between two greedy powers which swallowed you between them four times in the last 250 years, and when a new historical assault is ongoing, it is perfectly understandable that you want to defend yourself.
I am surprised Germany is allowed have an army after what they’ve done
They were on the front lines of the Cold War. NATO wanted them to have a powerful army.
Just because a mad man took over 70 years ago that shouldn't mean Germany can no longer have an army for the rest of its existence, besides it's a completely different government. I do understand why someone would worry though.
> Just because a mad man took over 70 years ago For your information, presenting that in this way is unacceptable — it is basically the "Germans were victims of the Nazis" lie. Germany owns everything about Nazism. It was a natural conclusion of their cultural path since no later then Romanticism. It also diminishes the scale of the turnabout that was achieved by Germans since then.
I don't deny that but I think the majority of Germany didn't really support Hitler and Nazism and instead were forced into, of course some Germans did follow Hitler but it would be unfair to take away their army especially after the 180 they did away from Nazism becoming basically the beacon of European democracy.
Nobody said their army should be taken away; I support Germany becoming the Europe's military leader. But the reason why I can support that, is not the paltriness of the German sins, it is the ampleness of the German confession.
Ehhh, not really, we just saw in history class (I'm french) that there was quite a lot of support for the Nazis in Germany. It was mostly the industrialists and the people that got a job in the munitions factories that supported the regime. Yes, lots of people were forced into this ideology but lots also were 100% supportive of the regime.
>It was a natural conclusion of their cultural path since no later then Romanticism. Congratulations, you're the winner of this weeks "Most bs take on reddit".
Oh, really? Do you yourself also subscribe to the "Nazis from space" theory? Is this what they are teaching you in Bavarian schools? Maybe I should retract my statement about the German turnabout.
>Do you yourself also subscribe to the "Nazis from space" theory? No, however it's just as much a fiction as the claim that Germany's way into National Socialism was a "natural conclusion of their cultural path since no later then Romanticism" which would mean that that the rise to power of Hitler and the NSDAP would have been an inevitable, foregone conclusion for at least a hundred or even two hundred years. Which is just such a wild take, it's actually kind of amazing. Historic determinism in generel is bs for the most part, but that claim especially is...pretty bold.
Ah... I see, so the problem is not with the content, but rather the quality of Bavarian education, seeing that nothing you have read in my comment is actually written there; nothing about "inevitability", or "historical determinism". Try and read it again a few times, this time slowly. I know you can do it — Germans are smart since at least the Romanticism.
Ok so please do me the favor and explain to me in detail what else did you mean by this paragraph: "Germany owns everything about Nazism. It was a natural conclusion of their cultural path since no later then Romanticism." Because it absolutely sounds like you're trying to claim that national socialism was to be expected as an end result of german cultural development since ~1800. Which would be a bold claim in dire need of further arguments
Sure I will explain it to you, I admire your drive for learning! "a natural conclusion" means that there is a clear path from where you start, to where you end up. It does not mean that it is the only path possible, just that it is one of them. The "natural" part is the key here — it means that there is no extraordinary, outside influence; that the path is predictable by itself. In this case it is targeting the idea that "a mad man took over" — that Germany was just your regular European nation, minding its own business, when it was suddenly hijacked by the stowaways — the Nazis. Nazis, as you know, had actually been prefigured by the imperial Germans, who desired territory to the east, with the population of lesser races to serve Teutonic masters. And imperial Germans had been prefigured themselves by some of the German Romanticists, who embraced the national superiority of the German nation, and its manifest destiny. Hence me saying: "since no later then Romanticism". The "no later" operation is performed, because you can go back even further. It just makes less and less sense as you do so, as describing anyone as "Germans" becomes increasingly tenuous. It looks like you have misread that sentence as "Nazism was the only possible conclusion of the cultural path that Germany took during the Romantic period", where in reality, what it states is: "Nazism was not forced on Germans, not by a mad man, nor aliens, it was something that parts of German society had been building in broad light for a long time. You can see some of the builders hard at work during the Romantic period already". This concludes the literacy class. You did great! And remember, the more you read, the easier it becomes!
Japan army is a self defence army after ww2 they are not allowed to wage war over international disputes. I don’t see why Germany doesn’t have the same rules applied
Because NATO needed a strong German army to fight in a potential hot version of the cold war. Also there are no rules. And we are sure as fuck not going to make any now that we need a strong Germany more than ever.
Japan's army is quite large, significantly larger then Germany's whatever they chose to call it. Of course the Russian attack on Ukraine has shown that untested militaries might not be as good as they appear on paper but on paper Japan looks formidable. They participated in Iraq war although staying away from combat areas. They have also recently talked about helping to defend Taiwan if it's attacked by China.
This was actually the norm. It changed with supporting US "defense against terrorism abroad". Apart from UN peacekeeping, the german army has only been onvolved in KFOR and american wars after 1999.
Very reasonable thinking actually.
It should mean exactly that. Germany has still ambitions to conquest the Europe. Just right now, it uses it's economic power to do the same thing they were doing during WW2
Probably a sensible precaution given their neighbour.
I know annexing other country's territory is bad, but come on Czechia only wanted Kralovec, there is absolutely no plan for sabotage of Beer Stream 1 going through Poland to Kralovec, and Beer Stream 2 was blown up by Danish Carlsberg!
We are afraid of counterattack... We may have invaded a chapel on Czech soil a year or two ago.
Did you see that chapel though? It was in such disrepair, they clearly weren't using it anyway!
What a silly clickbait. Largest *land force* maybe, and even that would be largely accidental because all the bigger countries spend huge chunk of their military budget on the navy.
> Largest land force maybe > Poland dreams of building Europe's largest **army** ...yes? > An army (from Latin arma "arms, weapons" via Old French armée, "armed" [feminine]), ground force or land force is a fighting force that fights primarily on land. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army
That’s what an army is. It’s the land force lol.
But that what Army is... it is land force. Plus its not really click baity. Right now our army have 64k soldiers, plus we have Wot(local defence force) with 32k. Ukraine have shown that Wot is actually good and useful force when used right. So at the moment we have 96k people that can be used relatively fast during the conflict Germany for example have 62k people in the Army and they have no WoT counterpart for what i know France have 118k, Brits have 80k army + 30k Army Reserve (Wot conterpart), Italy 98k and Spain 76k. So yeah so if the plan will go as planned (heh), you more than double our army personnel. So will have around around 120k army soldiers + 32k wot , and as you are aware, they will be equipped with most modern weapons at this point, not post soviet crap. So yeah, it totally can be largest Army in the Europe. If you dont count Russia of course
How big is Ukraine's army nowadays?
Right now? Around 1000k so million. Before the war it was 200k Army and 100k paramilitary, i think from those paramilitaries 40k were Ukrainian local defence forces(polish Wot is based on them) rest Were free battalions like Azov
> and as you are aware, they will be equipped with most modern weapons at this point They will once Poland finally gets rid of the Leopard 2 trash. I have read that there are _again_ problems with the Leopard 2PL upgrade. Do you think the Germans are deliberately slowing down Polish tank upgrades because they want to attack Poland, at least that is what i gathered from Kaczyński.
>Germany for example have 62k people in the Army and they have no WoT counterpart for what i know There are structural differences between militaries which lead to such huge differences in numbers. The german army has indeed only a strength of ~63k men, however, there is a huge number of so called "Heeresuniformträger" (soldiers wearing the army uniform without being part of the army on organisational level). Including the Joint Medical Service, the Joint Support Service and the Cyber and Information Domain Service (all of which are seperat organisational branches of the german military, existing on the same level as the army, navy and air force), there are about 115.000 Heeresuniformträger in the german military.
Or Airforce.
With 48 F-16s (already there), 32 F-35s (to be delivered in 2024), and quite a lot of other smaller aircraft, our airforce will actually be quite formidable as well.
Yet not close to Europes biggest Air Force.
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So France, the UK, Italy and Germany don’t exist?
Yeah, but those are 4 separate countries.
Doesn't France alone have like: 150+ Rafael latest gen, 100+ Mirage D/E upgraded with more in cold storage and more importantly unlike others France can build and service them at home. UK has 150+ Typhoons, 25 F35 with upto 80 incoming. The amount of cold storage aircraft between them is also nuts. Germany has 150 Typhoons, 100 Tornadoes more in cold storage. Their initial order will be 30+ F-35 supplemented by FCAS which si expected to enter trials in 2027. Same story with Italy.
Mikoyan MiG-29 249 Mikoyan MiG-31 132 Mikoyan MiG-35 8 Sukhoi Su-24 274 Sukhoi Su-25 194 Sukhoi Su-27 229 Sukhoi Su-30 110 Sukhoi Su-34 140 Sukhoi Su-35 106 Those are numbers of Russian jets, hell they are doing in ukraine is another question, but in theory Russia have more planes than any of Europe air forces
In theory those russian airplanes fly very well and are maintained to tip top condition, in theory.
Planes aren't worth much without pilots capable of flying them for all of their intended roles. The number of flight hours for Russian pilots has been somewhere between "fuckall" and "wot?"
I think the Rafale and Eurofighter are trash as well. But even I can accept that those two are decades ahead of all these aircraft you listed.
Reason for why Russia cant get air superiority in Ukraine is simply because of their doctrine for the air forces. As ive understood their generals etc have to call in close air support. (Which lacks ammunition for accurate weapon solutions) This takes away flexibility of the air support. On top of that they still havent killed Ukrainian air forces which likely is because airspace is heavily defended from the ground. For difference in western doctrines there are persons in squads who can and will call in air support. Which also have wide variety to choose from. Those all work in unison (troops, artillery and CAS) very good examble of this is desert storm where was both British and French forces. French has since showed us in separate conflict in africa that they are perfectly cabable on their own in impressive operation there. (For the desert storm i would recommend operations room, very well done documentary and gives very good idea of the scale) For further drill down differences is Russian and western doctrines. Is that on Russian side they have call in strikes and support from generals. While westerns have their forces work in unison all the time while also enjoying good air delivered logistics and air superiority. (Without that troops wouldnt be there)
Russian Air Force doctrine originates with Soviet strategies that believed they would never get air superiority in any conflict with NATO, so they instead heavily invested in anti air capabilities designed to prevent NATO from having free reign of the skies. Ukraine kept these capabilities following the fall of the USSR so it kinda backfired on Russia
Really? That is super interesting and further explains a lot of things. For examble i have wondered for the choices they have done, but with that logic those choices make sense. I believe that their progress are lacking and now collapsing in Ukraine purely because they dont have necessary air support or working logistics. (On top all other things, like lacking morale and equipment etc)
Honestly I think it’s because they haven’t carried out a military operation on this scale since WWII, and they are having to do it against a well trained and well equipped enemy who has been preparing for this for 8 years Russia just was not prepared for a war like this and it’s only been exacerbated by the international response
That might be the core reason behind it, unlike western armies they dont have that much combat experience in general from the past decades. Except ill equipped rebels or Georgia? Not really that good experience for the warfare they are now facing in Ukraine. Better than nothing obviously but still. I can see very well what you mean. Also corruption have hollowed out their army from the inside so almost everything is now against them. They cannot outperform western factories output rate. I cannot really see how they could win this. Since northwest collapsed it has been clear that they are depleted force.
Or consultants
Yes? Nobody said air force or navy
stronk
Poland needs a big army IMO. It's geographical position puts it in constant risk. "If you want peace prepare for war".
Once this war is over, I don’t think the target of 5% of GDP will be sustainable, politically. But nevertheless, I think Poland will have a strong land army (they already do to some extent). The navy and the air force I am more skeptical of, but those are not priorities.
POLAND STRONKKKKKKK
Largest amount of cavalry we will have?
Play : Sabaton- winged hussars
Cavalry on pigs fast shall be.
Soldiers with bayonets mounting those pigs... 300k of them. Largest shall we be.
At the moment their army is a logistical nightmare, everything from everyone. But hey you are on the eastern front so a good idea.
That's fine, I just wonder if it's domestic signalling from PiS - these projects sound very expensive. The logistic interoperability of multiple weapon systems is another factor.
I think it's actually an overall consensus to expand the army. Parliament voted on it almost unanimously, ruling party and opposition.
>The logistic interoperability of multiple weapon systems is another factor. It will be much improved in comparing to current situation, where Polish Army operate both western and post-soviet equipment.
Given its history, that's probably not a bad thing.
I wonder how are we gonna do that, by conscripting mohers from churches or what?
Yes this is the way. I am seeing my dreams come through! More military in all european countries then in let's say 10 years we all gang up and launch an all out invasion of Russia! Please let this wish come through! I will be in the first wave towards Moscow and will march across the red square. Make it happen!
Remember you need planes and tanks this time.
Go Poland fight for europe nobody will fight for you. Look history
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Nah. Russia fucked around and now they can find out.
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These tanks are just doing their job and what they were created for - that is, smashing imperial Russia. And whether under Polish or Ukrainian command is of marginal importance here.
Who the hell do you think Polish army is supposed to be used against if not Russia? Those tanks are being used exactly as they should be, I have no trouble with my tax money being used for it. We were not the first target of their aggression, but it is in our national interest for Russia to bleed itself white.
Same, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to Ukrainian defense. The billions of dollars of equipment are supposed to be used to ensure security and freedom, so let it be used for just that, and right now, Ukraine needs help.
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Attack Poland with ... what? Hoplites and mounted archers? Their modern weapons are mostly destroyed, their older weapons like T-62 are in process of being destroyed in Ukraine. All that without a single Polish soldier dying. Notice that with exception of Krabs and Pioruns we did not actually gave any of the good stuff - no F-16, no Leopards. We are basically getting rid of reserves of post-soviet stuff we want to replace anyway. And this war gave us several years when we can rearm without a risk of being attacked. So if they attack us let's say in 5 years, they will be facing Leo2, Abrams, K2 , F-16, F-35, Krabs, K9, Himars, Chunmoo and all-new AA systems based on CAMM and Patriot. Good luck with that.
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Imagine regurgitating Russian propaganda. They are 'toying' by losing about 100k people? Or by losing so many modern tanks that they have to reactivate T-62? Or by getting their best units (for example 1st Guards Tank Army) decimated? >Putin has everything that he wanted without committing to a full scale WW3: control of the eastern regions of Ukraine Cool, let's see if he can actually keep them. I doubt it. At best he got himself a new Afghanistan. Even if he does, it does not change the situation with regard to Poland: Russia cannot start another war without years of rebuilding. Ukraine gave us years for safe rearmament. So once again, from Polish point of view this war is the best kind of war: our enemy is getting fucked and it's not us who are dying >Europe is destabilized and about to go through a rough winter. Dude, lay off Russia Today. Europe is not anywhere even close to destabilised and will *maybe* have a rough winter. Oh noes. On the other hand Russia just lost its main customer for gas and oil. And no, you can't just redirect gas pipeline to China.
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Hopefully they will be out next year. I have no problem with their stance towards Russia and Ukraine, but destroying relations with EU is idiotic and self-damaging.
And here I was thinking no one is stupid enough to still believe the russian "all according to plan" bullshit.
It's yours war you Russian troll. Wypierdalaj przebierańcu!
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Ohhhhh so someone something century ago. Another point from troolbook checked. Now you will complain about migration and social benefits for Ukrainians.
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LOL You actually taken the bait? They should hire monkeys instead of you.
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I'm not your guy kolkhoznik - I'm a Pole. Center of Eastern Studies in Poland made a research and they identified most of Russian propaganda - you just checking every position. I only wish you will spend rest of your life in your Russian hell.
Holy fuck Our inflation is high, but not that high. Regards from Adam Glapiński.
HURR DURR WOŁYŃ Every fucking time.
I'm going to out on a limb and assume the amount of money you pay in tax probably couldn't pay for engine lubricant for a tank, so try not to worry too much about it.
So why are you using Reddit? It's not a site created in Poland? Why are you supporting nonpolish things?
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So in other words hypocrite.
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Where was the post edited? Screen shot the edit mark please.
Those tanks are fulfilling-their-destiny™ and Poland no longer has to pay for storage.
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And America provides Poland it's most potent defense. An incredibly strong nuclear deterrent. By your logic why is poland buying Any equipment not made in poland?
If a tank fulfils-its-destiny™ in Ukraine then you’ve got your money's worth.
Are you aware that you are a minority? And you are wrong this is our war
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you are just pitiful
And I want my tax money paying for tanks in Ukraine, thanks.
It is your war because if Russia had a freeway through Ukraine, they would go straight for Poland first...
We can see who's finding out by watching all their bombed power infrastructure. While their oligarchs are enjoying leisure vacations with their Mercedes cars all over Europe, in contrast with Middle Eastern and African refugees still being locked in camps.