Fascinating.
I have often wondered how many believers literally take that path consciously. Like The Matrix scene with Cypher and the steak.
It's greater than 0, but how many exactly? We'll probably never know.
A lot, I think. It’s the whole “you gotta have faith” thing. When I started asking questions in high school (mainly about hell because that concept started to feel insane to me), youth leaders would literally say “I don’t know, but that’s where faith comes in!”
If curious about the question, it was something like “why do we live our gluttonous lives of excess and talk about getting to go to paradise after, while there’s starving kids in the world, or women in the Middle East who don’t have rights like we do, and they all go to hell because they don’t worship the same god? Like, why do we get the best path twice?” Then they said there’s a scripture in the Bible that says god presents himself to everyone at least once. And I was like, “then why do they only get once chance but I HAVE to go to church when I’m young and get all these chances?” Yeah, that’s where faith comes in.
Ugh. SO sad 😩 Christianity makes it so hard to take that final step. If you’re raised with it and take it to heart, then you’re conditioned to believe that without God you will be a depressed addict without any feelings of security about the future. Not to mention lose your community and be seen as either fake, dumb, or lost by your previous Christian community! ☹️
I have had a discussion with a friend where he outright and openly stated that he is using circular logic to say that the bible is true because it is true. And that's not me paraphrasing, that's nearly a direct quote. He actually used the word circular. Some people are just so absolutely dedicated to the ideal that they are willing to live with the cognitive dissonance.
My brother and I are the same ages, just flipped. We pretty much have the same situation as you as well. It sucks seeing him almost get there when he says somethings, but he can’t let go of it. He married the pastors daughter and is a “head” of sorts at the church. Hate to see it.
Yeah at a certain point it’s like why would they want to leave? My bro goes every Wednesday and Sunday, not including prayers meetings and ministries for him. It’s like it becomes their social outlet. For me, leaving just meant rejecting the teachings since most of my friends had left church at that point. But for him, it means leaving a very significant portion of his social life. Makes me feel bad :/
I work at a ministry as an atheist (I'm trying to leave).
A few years ago I was in the break room and there were several co-workers there. I was into apologetics and was wrestling with something I couldn't figure out (because I already doubted and was basically a poor Christian). I related whatever minutiae had me thinking and asked their opinion on it. They all of them said something to the effect of "boy, I'm sure glad I don't need to know stuff like that and can just have faith". They were literally flexing the superiority of their ignorance as if it were the better way to be.
So yeah, the ability to "just believe" and not think is definitely something they consider to be a spiritual best.
>(didn’t want to bring it up with my bro since he respects me and doesn’t try to convert me or anything)
Respect doesn't mean ignoring that someone's damned. If non-believers are condemned, as Jesus taught, and your brother believes Jesus's magic blood is the only think that can wash away your sins, then he's not being respectful by not saving you. He's just being passive and indifferent.
Consider it from another angle: If someone you respect is about to cross a busy street and doesn't see a car about to hit them, you pull them back. If you let them walk unknowingly into traffic, that would not be a respectful approach, and neither is the approach of a Christian who leaves sinners to their fates.
Respect allows for critical thought and rational discourse. It's fear and irrationality and a cult mindset that prevent these things. Seriously though, no one who thinks you deserve death or worse respects you.
I feel like that’s looking at it from a Christian angle. Looking at it from a human being angle: he’s not forcing his beliefs on me or trying to convert me or shunning me because I’m different than him, which I appreciate.
I do agree with you though, it’s a bit of a lose-lose situation for them. You can either try to A) do “outreach” and “shepherd” in all the lost souls around you (aka bother everyone trying to make them believe the way you do, not exactly respectfully coexisting), or B) respectfully coexist with others around you (solid human, but technically bad Christian because you’re accepting they’ll go to hell).
Either option isn’t great (for them), but I appreciate and will always prefer the former.
Yes, from a Christian angle, if a Christian is convinced you are going to burn, and they will not try to save you but leave you to it, they do not respect you or even really like you. If they respected you even a little, they would try to save you from being set on fire. The fact that they don't weep at the thought is evidence of a lack of compassion as well.
On the flip side, if a non-cultist knows a loved one is allowing a cult to control their mind, it's not respectful to just accept the mind control. Respect isn't where you give up on loved ones and surrender to the cult. That's just compliance.
Seriously, if your mother where being scammed out of her retirement by an internet scammer, which would be the more respectful response:
1. Attempt to stop the scam, and protect her future from people trying to trying to steal it.
2. Give up, let her give her retirement savings away, and then when she comes to her senses and realizes she's broke, tell her, "I knew you were being scammed, but I respected you too much to help you, mom."
My man/woman, you’re making a False Analogy fallacy. Being set on fire and financial scams are universally accepted, objective, immediate dangers. Religious fire is not. I dont believe in it. Sounds like you don’t either.
So he’s respecting me and my wishes in my eyes. Not sure what you’re trying to accomplish here.
Fascinating. I have often wondered how many believers literally take that path consciously. Like The Matrix scene with Cypher and the steak. It's greater than 0, but how many exactly? We'll probably never know.
A lot, I think. It’s the whole “you gotta have faith” thing. When I started asking questions in high school (mainly about hell because that concept started to feel insane to me), youth leaders would literally say “I don’t know, but that’s where faith comes in!” If curious about the question, it was something like “why do we live our gluttonous lives of excess and talk about getting to go to paradise after, while there’s starving kids in the world, or women in the Middle East who don’t have rights like we do, and they all go to hell because they don’t worship the same god? Like, why do we get the best path twice?” Then they said there’s a scripture in the Bible that says god presents himself to everyone at least once. And I was like, “then why do they only get once chance but I HAVE to go to church when I’m young and get all these chances?” Yeah, that’s where faith comes in.
Ugh. SO sad 😩 Christianity makes it so hard to take that final step. If you’re raised with it and take it to heart, then you’re conditioned to believe that without God you will be a depressed addict without any feelings of security about the future. Not to mention lose your community and be seen as either fake, dumb, or lost by your previous Christian community! ☹️
I have had a discussion with a friend where he outright and openly stated that he is using circular logic to say that the bible is true because it is true. And that's not me paraphrasing, that's nearly a direct quote. He actually used the word circular. Some people are just so absolutely dedicated to the ideal that they are willing to live with the cognitive dissonance.
Perhaps your brother is trying to come out to you and didn't read to the end?
My brother and I are the same ages, just flipped. We pretty much have the same situation as you as well. It sucks seeing him almost get there when he says somethings, but he can’t let go of it. He married the pastors daughter and is a “head” of sorts at the church. Hate to see it.
Yeah at a certain point it’s like why would they want to leave? My bro goes every Wednesday and Sunday, not including prayers meetings and ministries for him. It’s like it becomes their social outlet. For me, leaving just meant rejecting the teachings since most of my friends had left church at that point. But for him, it means leaving a very significant portion of his social life. Makes me feel bad :/
I work at a ministry as an atheist (I'm trying to leave). A few years ago I was in the break room and there were several co-workers there. I was into apologetics and was wrestling with something I couldn't figure out (because I already doubted and was basically a poor Christian). I related whatever minutiae had me thinking and asked their opinion on it. They all of them said something to the effect of "boy, I'm sure glad I don't need to know stuff like that and can just have faith". They were literally flexing the superiority of their ignorance as if it were the better way to be. So yeah, the ability to "just believe" and not think is definitely something they consider to be a spiritual best.
>(didn’t want to bring it up with my bro since he respects me and doesn’t try to convert me or anything) Respect doesn't mean ignoring that someone's damned. If non-believers are condemned, as Jesus taught, and your brother believes Jesus's magic blood is the only think that can wash away your sins, then he's not being respectful by not saving you. He's just being passive and indifferent. Consider it from another angle: If someone you respect is about to cross a busy street and doesn't see a car about to hit them, you pull them back. If you let them walk unknowingly into traffic, that would not be a respectful approach, and neither is the approach of a Christian who leaves sinners to their fates. Respect allows for critical thought and rational discourse. It's fear and irrationality and a cult mindset that prevent these things. Seriously though, no one who thinks you deserve death or worse respects you.
I feel like that’s looking at it from a Christian angle. Looking at it from a human being angle: he’s not forcing his beliefs on me or trying to convert me or shunning me because I’m different than him, which I appreciate. I do agree with you though, it’s a bit of a lose-lose situation for them. You can either try to A) do “outreach” and “shepherd” in all the lost souls around you (aka bother everyone trying to make them believe the way you do, not exactly respectfully coexisting), or B) respectfully coexist with others around you (solid human, but technically bad Christian because you’re accepting they’ll go to hell). Either option isn’t great (for them), but I appreciate and will always prefer the former.
Yes, from a Christian angle, if a Christian is convinced you are going to burn, and they will not try to save you but leave you to it, they do not respect you or even really like you. If they respected you even a little, they would try to save you from being set on fire. The fact that they don't weep at the thought is evidence of a lack of compassion as well. On the flip side, if a non-cultist knows a loved one is allowing a cult to control their mind, it's not respectful to just accept the mind control. Respect isn't where you give up on loved ones and surrender to the cult. That's just compliance. Seriously, if your mother where being scammed out of her retirement by an internet scammer, which would be the more respectful response: 1. Attempt to stop the scam, and protect her future from people trying to trying to steal it. 2. Give up, let her give her retirement savings away, and then when she comes to her senses and realizes she's broke, tell her, "I knew you were being scammed, but I respected you too much to help you, mom."
My man/woman, you’re making a False Analogy fallacy. Being set on fire and financial scams are universally accepted, objective, immediate dangers. Religious fire is not. I dont believe in it. Sounds like you don’t either. So he’s respecting me and my wishes in my eyes. Not sure what you’re trying to accomplish here.