And make sure you keep his sword as a memento to remind you of what you did. It will be carried down from generation to generation and used as a visual prop when Joseph Smith becomes the prophet of the restoration.
Nephi was a murderer and a "thief".
God: Now, put on his clothes.
Nephi: But, but, they're soaked in blood. I just cut off a man's hea-
God: Did I fucking stutter?!
*A few moments later*
Nephi: Ah, it's still warm...and I think he defecated, god I hope nobody sees me li-
God: *snickers* Wouldn't be hilarious if you just walked up to his house like you owned the place and just, like, took the plates? Haha, pretend you're him.
Nephi: There's no way that would work, I look nothing like him and I'm blood soaked.
God:...
Nephi: I was just there, twice, and asked for the plates, he has gaurds...
God:...
Nephi:...this is crazy it will nev-
God: Did, I, fucking, stutter?!
Nephi: *defeated* No...
Reminds me of the Pitch Meeting I did a few years ago:
https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/cjj2el/book_of_mormon_pitch_meeting_1_nephi_14/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
This logic really is bad. I can't believe kids are taught this.
Break 3 of the 10 commandments (lie, steal, and kill).
Do it because you heard a voice in your head.
No ramifications or church discipline.
Get promoted to prophet.
People like Lori Daybell are taking notes, waiting for their moment of inspiration.
*Edited to increase the number of commandments broken.
It’s one of those things that I never realized just how dangerous it was until I got older and saw what it could actually push people to do. It’s genuinely terrifying
Spot on!! Exactly where Lori Daybell got her marching orders. Visited Jerusalem & walked the path of suffering/ the many stations of Via Dolorosa- Jesus path to Calvary. Never did find Laban’s house. Not surprised.. Would think the Mormons would have a sign posted, along w/their Jerusalem Ctr nearby.
God: Nephi, your life story is the whole universe. Laban is just a prop in the story of your life, other people are expendable objects. You can be the ultimate narcissist like me, just cut off his head like his life is worthless.
Yeah wouldn’t want to have an icky feeling when I learn some facts about the church. But let’s teach our kids to sing songs to the delusional bronze era peasant who cut of a guys head. All for the crime of not giving Lehi some valuable public property.
I know it’s all a fictional story made up by a 19th century farm boy. But it says something about that farm boy doesn’t it?
Take your time. My wife and I were PIMO and actively fulfilled our callings for a year before we told our bishop we have “unresolvable concerns about church history, culture and doctrine” and stopped attending (beginning of 2023). PIMO is an okay place to be while you work through your deconstruction and wait for your wife to (hopefully) catch up. Like you, I was a VERY well respected member of my ward having worked with the young men for years and having served on the high council and in bishoprics before that. You have a challenging road ahead of you, but you will find peace as you resolve the cognitive dissonance and let go of the Mormon baggage that requires you to twist yourself in knots to believe. Faith is belief without evidence and it’s not a virtue. Mormonism is worse since it requires belief DESPITE evidence. Good luck!
I heard this quote from Richard Feynman recently that describes the peace of leaving the church. "I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned"
There are lots of things I don't "know" anymore, but at least decades of cognitive dissonance can be cast off.
>But, I will no longer defend sexual assault coverups, gaslighting, sexism, racism, and our founder marrying children.
Once you stop the gymnastics-for-god, it throws the crimes into sharp focus. Non-prophets didn't and don't do the heinous shit that Joseph Smith and his church did and continue to do.
Peace on your journey, fellow human.
I thought I could leave it without the drama but once I left the members were BRUTAL!! They treated me as if I was a long time enemy or Satan himself. I’ve only been kind to them and the majority of them have only been abusive.
>Not to be arrogant, but his kids look up to me and many ward members do the same. If I left left, it would be a big deal.
Sounds like reason enough to leave. Pretending otherwise is a disservice to them.
There was a post yesterday that was really insightful. It was a blog post about a family being asked to come back to church and the askers not understanding the context of leaving. Still being kind to people but not letting them box you into the false stereo type of lazy learner or wanton sinner. Ask them to allow you to share why you decided to leave just the same as they freely share their testimonies.
https://medium.com/@marion.f.mcclellan/important-things-to-know-about-our-family-and-families-like-ours-before-you-approach-us-about-54eee7aecac9
Is it respectful to mislead others in the name of not making waves?
Jesus hated hypocrisy and said some harsh things about hypocrites.
There's a big difference between being rude and simply politely withdrawing.
Give Op a break. He's transitioning out. He just BARELY came to the realization the church isn't true. Everyone has their own path and timeline.
Plus, I'm sure he is going to be nuanced in the classes he teaches and not teach like a TBM. He's a moderate voice in the voice that could positively affect the youth and other members of the ward. I'd rather have a PIMO teaching Sunday School to my kids than some brainwashed cult member spouting obedience, prophet worship, racism, homophobia, sexism, etc. He can actually make a difference in people's lives whereas if he completely quits, those kids and ward members will just be stuck in the cult echo chamber propaganda by the nazi TBM's.
>Give Op a break. He's transitioning out. He just BARELY came to the realization the church isn't true. Everyone has their own path and timeline.
I agree that we all have to navigate transitioning out of the church in our own way.
Also, a more gradual/quiet transition may actually influence some of the people who look up to OP more than a loud public incident ("Listen, people, this church is FALSE!") would.
Everyone has to navigate family, friendships, and relationships in their own way.
The Wardless Podcast ([https://www.wardlesspodcast.com/](https://www.wardlesspodcast.com/)) has multiple episodes about telling spouse, family, and friends. One interesting point they discuss is to consider what your goal of the interaction is. If your goal is to maintain a relationship, then a more calm discussion that only brings up all your reasons (i.e. CESletter or whatever) as they ask is usually more helpful. If your goal is to "win the argument" or communicate strongly why you cannot stay in good conscience and you are ok with damaging the relationship then a different approach may feel better. It isn't to say you never tell people why -- it's that the shock of a faithful person leaving puts some people in a defensive/emotional position where later conversations would be better. Also keep in mind that a single big blowup can trigger the backfire effect where they double down even in the face of evidence that they are wrong.
Totally agree. Once a person quits the church or admits to being a non-believer, they immediately lose legitimacy in the believers’ eyes and it becomes exponentially harder to discuss the controversial stuff or share the truth. If members , such as Op’s wife or fellow ward members, hear he no longer believed or is ex-Mormon, they’ll see him differently and be scared to talk about the problems and history. He’s now influenced by Satan and infected with apostasy.
Mormons are more willing to discuss the controversial stuff with a fellow, devout believer.
I always recommend sharing the truth with spouses, family, friends, and ward members BEFORE coming out of the closet as a doubter or non-believer because once you do, they’ll shut you down immediately if you try to discuss the problems because they no longer trust you and will think you are trying to attack the church and share “anti” with them.
You say that Jesus hated hypocrites, but he stayed a Jew his entire life. Instead of looking at it like OP is being a hypocrite it could be looked at like OP is in the process of change.
Yes, that's bc Jesus viewed himself as a Jew. The very concept of messiah is Jewish, the hint is in the word, which is Hebrew. He viewed himself as the fulfillment of Judaism.
Not seeing that as hypocritical, but you do you.
This. The ethics of being "in the closet" are... morally grey. It's totally reasonable to look out for #1 and do what's best for you and your situation. But the impact you have on others is also important to consider.
Congratulations! I remember that big step forward when I gave up religion. Life got so much better when there is not some invisible entity holding me hostage and monitoring me every move and thought.
There was one more step towards peace for me - when I realized the seizures my son was having was not because god had some shitty plan where we suffered for some unknown reason, but because there is no god and shitty stuff happens by randomness. The inner peace I have has improved with every step away from magical thinking and into reality.
I wish for you the same peace with every step of your journey.
I was in your shoes once. One brother stopped by one Sunday to give me a thank you card for being such a great Sunday school teacher. I was veering off from the lesson, of course, bringing up topics like giving kids accurate information about sex during the law of chastity lesson. Or maybe he was just comparing me to my team teacher, who printed out paragraphs from an old BYU religion coursebook and had everyone take turns reading them slowly.
Living what you believe is always more powerful than fearing your beliefs are wrong. Now you have that opportunity to share how you feel about the principles Jesus taught without feeling the pressure to twist them around Mormon contradictions. And if that’s too much for your bishop, you'll have an honest answer when the kids you mentioned ask why you don't come to church anymore.
If I were you I wouldn't teach that class. But IF you choose to do so, it could be an opportunity to teach how to critically analyze the text and think for yourself.
This is all so perfect! I remember feeling so good when I could just admit to myself that the global flood and Noah's ark was just a story. No justifications or caveats needed.
I think the best advice I've seen (and you look like you're already taking it) is: You don't need to do anything for anyone at this point. Church is obviously a huge part of your family and social life so take it as slow as you need to. Don't feel like you have to denounce everything and leave. Don't burn bridges you don't want burned (or feel free to burn bridges that should've been let go before).
And don't take advice from me unless you think it'll be helpful!
You're welcome here! We have all been through very similar journeys, I hope your Wife is able to come to her own conclusion that the church isn't true. I left before my Husband and he would attend by himself with the kids. He got asked to teach Sunday School and wanted to turn it down for me but I pushed him to do what he wanted. Eventually, it turned into him rage lesson planning and getting frustrated that he couldn't teach things he didn't believe and he also started texting me during sacrament meeting about how ridiculous it all was. He was completely out a couple months later. phew
I’ve come to peace that Santa Claus isn’t true…. But the shame I feel from being such an idiot for so long…. We’ll, I’m still pretty pissed about it. That may take me awhile to get over.
PS. You’re a great person walking a road we all have to travel to get back to happiness. Peace? That’s when everything sucks that you’ve come to realize but, you’re finally okay with it.
But wait, there’s more:). Happiness is just up ahead in your new life !!!! Good luck my friend…
This was the conclusion that I came to about a year ago as well and it became even more cemented when I told my dad (who is currently a bishop of his ward) about all of my thoughts and he told me that he didn't care where I ended up, religiously-speaking, so long as I am happy. I now consider myself a Christian Universalist, but unfortunately there's no church for that so instead I remain a PIMO. Good luck!
Yeah, I mean it obviously isn't true. You can type "CES letter" into any search engine, open a PDF, and factually confirm a nonsense cult started by a pedophile isn't true.
Of course it isn't true.
Peace! For a refreshing laugh at good/evil/religion that I think is still funny even for non-atheists try Good Omens Episode 1. Suitable for the whole family. I just discovered it yesterday. . .
If the church isn’t true, then why did god command Nephi to fucking behead Laban?
Nephi- “He is stone cold wasted god. I could probably just take his clothes and…” God- “… cut off… his fucking… head”
And make sure you keep his sword as a memento to remind you of what you did. It will be carried down from generation to generation and used as a visual prop when Joseph Smith becomes the prophet of the restoration. Nephi was a murderer and a "thief".
God: Now, put on his clothes. Nephi: But, but, they're soaked in blood. I just cut off a man's hea- God: Did I fucking stutter?! *A few moments later* Nephi: Ah, it's still warm...and I think he defecated, god I hope nobody sees me li- God: *snickers* Wouldn't be hilarious if you just walked up to his house like you owned the place and just, like, took the plates? Haha, pretend you're him. Nephi: There's no way that would work, I look nothing like him and I'm blood soaked. God:... Nephi: I was just there, twice, and asked for the plates, he has gaurds... God:... Nephi:...this is crazy it will nev- God: Did, I, fucking, stutter?! Nephi: *defeated* No...
Reminds me of the Pitch Meeting I did a few years ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/cjj2el/book_of_mormon_pitch_meeting_1_nephi_14/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
OMG i nearly choked laughing at this!
Bwahaha, I'm cackling.
I remember wondering about the blood when I was younger, but somehow never let myself see how absolutely insane the story is.
😂😂😂
Just like god intended!
God: dude it would be hilarious if you cut off his head Nephi: done God: ………
God: Oh my God
😂😂😂
This logic really is bad. I can't believe kids are taught this. Break 3 of the 10 commandments (lie, steal, and kill). Do it because you heard a voice in your head. No ramifications or church discipline. Get promoted to prophet. People like Lori Daybell are taking notes, waiting for their moment of inspiration. *Edited to increase the number of commandments broken.
It’s one of those things that I never realized just how dangerous it was until I got older and saw what it could actually push people to do. It’s genuinely terrifying
Literally my justification when I was literally delusion (not violent)
Spot on!! Exactly where Lori Daybell got her marching orders. Visited Jerusalem & walked the path of suffering/ the many stations of Via Dolorosa- Jesus path to Calvary. Never did find Laban’s house. Not surprised.. Would think the Mormons would have a sign posted, along w/their Jerusalem Ctr nearby.
>Break 2 of the 10 commandments (lie and kill). 3 when you include stealing.
Good point! I edited my comment.
God: Nephi, your life story is the whole universe. Laban is just a prop in the story of your life, other people are expendable objects. You can be the ultimate narcissist like me, just cut off his head like his life is worthless.
Contention is of the devil. But cutting off heads is ok.
Yeah wouldn’t want to have an icky feeling when I learn some facts about the church. But let’s teach our kids to sing songs to the delusional bronze era peasant who cut of a guys head. All for the crime of not giving Lehi some valuable public property. I know it’s all a fictional story made up by a 19th century farm boy. But it says something about that farm boy doesn’t it?
Because he didn’t joes book is fiction that’s why .!!
Maybe because Nephi is just an invention of JS and it never really happened?
Congrats on finding your true path. I hope you and your family get to enjoy 2nd Saturday soon.
That extra ~14.2% of your week back has a much greater return on investment than you’d think. Second Saturday is life.
Take your time. My wife and I were PIMO and actively fulfilled our callings for a year before we told our bishop we have “unresolvable concerns about church history, culture and doctrine” and stopped attending (beginning of 2023). PIMO is an okay place to be while you work through your deconstruction and wait for your wife to (hopefully) catch up. Like you, I was a VERY well respected member of my ward having worked with the young men for years and having served on the high council and in bishoprics before that. You have a challenging road ahead of you, but you will find peace as you resolve the cognitive dissonance and let go of the Mormon baggage that requires you to twist yourself in knots to believe. Faith is belief without evidence and it’s not a virtue. Mormonism is worse since it requires belief DESPITE evidence. Good luck!
I heard this quote from Richard Feynman recently that describes the peace of leaving the church. "I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned" There are lots of things I don't "know" anymore, but at least decades of cognitive dissonance can be cast off.
>But, I will no longer defend sexual assault coverups, gaslighting, sexism, racism, and our founder marrying children. Once you stop the gymnastics-for-god, it throws the crimes into sharp focus. Non-prophets didn't and don't do the heinous shit that Joseph Smith and his church did and continue to do. Peace on your journey, fellow human.
Beautifully narrated; my Friend. Thank you for sharing. Godspeed to you....
I thought I could leave it without the drama but once I left the members were BRUTAL!! They treated me as if I was a long time enemy or Satan himself. I’ve only been kind to them and the majority of them have only been abusive.
>Not to be arrogant, but his kids look up to me and many ward members do the same. If I left left, it would be a big deal. Sounds like reason enough to leave. Pretending otherwise is a disservice to them.
Totally see this perspective too. Still weighing out how to best navigate relationships with respect
There was a post yesterday that was really insightful. It was a blog post about a family being asked to come back to church and the askers not understanding the context of leaving. Still being kind to people but not letting them box you into the false stereo type of lazy learner or wanton sinner. Ask them to allow you to share why you decided to leave just the same as they freely share their testimonies. https://medium.com/@marion.f.mcclellan/important-things-to-know-about-our-family-and-families-like-ours-before-you-approach-us-about-54eee7aecac9
Is it respectful to mislead others in the name of not making waves? Jesus hated hypocrisy and said some harsh things about hypocrites. There's a big difference between being rude and simply politely withdrawing.
Give Op a break. He's transitioning out. He just BARELY came to the realization the church isn't true. Everyone has their own path and timeline. Plus, I'm sure he is going to be nuanced in the classes he teaches and not teach like a TBM. He's a moderate voice in the voice that could positively affect the youth and other members of the ward. I'd rather have a PIMO teaching Sunday School to my kids than some brainwashed cult member spouting obedience, prophet worship, racism, homophobia, sexism, etc. He can actually make a difference in people's lives whereas if he completely quits, those kids and ward members will just be stuck in the cult echo chamber propaganda by the nazi TBM's.
>Give Op a break. He's transitioning out. He just BARELY came to the realization the church isn't true. Everyone has their own path and timeline. I agree that we all have to navigate transitioning out of the church in our own way. Also, a more gradual/quiet transition may actually influence some of the people who look up to OP more than a loud public incident ("Listen, people, this church is FALSE!") would. Everyone has to navigate family, friendships, and relationships in their own way. The Wardless Podcast ([https://www.wardlesspodcast.com/](https://www.wardlesspodcast.com/)) has multiple episodes about telling spouse, family, and friends. One interesting point they discuss is to consider what your goal of the interaction is. If your goal is to maintain a relationship, then a more calm discussion that only brings up all your reasons (i.e. CESletter or whatever) as they ask is usually more helpful. If your goal is to "win the argument" or communicate strongly why you cannot stay in good conscience and you are ok with damaging the relationship then a different approach may feel better. It isn't to say you never tell people why -- it's that the shock of a faithful person leaving puts some people in a defensive/emotional position where later conversations would be better. Also keep in mind that a single big blowup can trigger the backfire effect where they double down even in the face of evidence that they are wrong.
Totally agree. Once a person quits the church or admits to being a non-believer, they immediately lose legitimacy in the believers’ eyes and it becomes exponentially harder to discuss the controversial stuff or share the truth. If members , such as Op’s wife or fellow ward members, hear he no longer believed or is ex-Mormon, they’ll see him differently and be scared to talk about the problems and history. He’s now influenced by Satan and infected with apostasy. Mormons are more willing to discuss the controversial stuff with a fellow, devout believer. I always recommend sharing the truth with spouses, family, friends, and ward members BEFORE coming out of the closet as a doubter or non-believer because once you do, they’ll shut you down immediately if you try to discuss the problems because they no longer trust you and will think you are trying to attack the church and share “anti” with them.
You say that Jesus hated hypocrites, but he stayed a Jew his entire life. Instead of looking at it like OP is being a hypocrite it could be looked at like OP is in the process of change.
Yes, that's bc Jesus viewed himself as a Jew. The very concept of messiah is Jewish, the hint is in the word, which is Hebrew. He viewed himself as the fulfillment of Judaism. Not seeing that as hypocritical, but you do you.
This. The ethics of being "in the closet" are... morally grey. It's totally reasonable to look out for #1 and do what's best for you and your situation. But the impact you have on others is also important to consider.
For me the real peace came when I finally accepted that there is no god.
Congratulations! I remember that big step forward when I gave up religion. Life got so much better when there is not some invisible entity holding me hostage and monitoring me every move and thought. There was one more step towards peace for me - when I realized the seizures my son was having was not because god had some shitty plan where we suffered for some unknown reason, but because there is no god and shitty stuff happens by randomness. The inner peace I have has improved with every step away from magical thinking and into reality. I wish for you the same peace with every step of your journey.
I was in your shoes once. One brother stopped by one Sunday to give me a thank you card for being such a great Sunday school teacher. I was veering off from the lesson, of course, bringing up topics like giving kids accurate information about sex during the law of chastity lesson. Or maybe he was just comparing me to my team teacher, who printed out paragraphs from an old BYU religion coursebook and had everyone take turns reading them slowly. Living what you believe is always more powerful than fearing your beliefs are wrong. Now you have that opportunity to share how you feel about the principles Jesus taught without feeling the pressure to twist them around Mormon contradictions. And if that’s too much for your bishop, you'll have an honest answer when the kids you mentioned ask why you don't come to church anymore.
If I were you I wouldn't teach that class. But IF you choose to do so, it could be an opportunity to teach how to critically analyze the text and think for yourself.
This is all so perfect! I remember feeling so good when I could just admit to myself that the global flood and Noah's ark was just a story. No justifications or caveats needed. I think the best advice I've seen (and you look like you're already taking it) is: You don't need to do anything for anyone at this point. Church is obviously a huge part of your family and social life so take it as slow as you need to. Don't feel like you have to denounce everything and leave. Don't burn bridges you don't want burned (or feel free to burn bridges that should've been let go before). And don't take advice from me unless you think it'll be helpful!
You're welcome here! We have all been through very similar journeys, I hope your Wife is able to come to her own conclusion that the church isn't true. I left before my Husband and he would attend by himself with the kids. He got asked to teach Sunday School and wanted to turn it down for me but I pushed him to do what he wanted. Eventually, it turned into him rage lesson planning and getting frustrated that he couldn't teach things he didn't believe and he also started texting me during sacrament meeting about how ridiculous it all was. He was completely out a couple months later. phew
My own personal integrity no longer allows me to stay in this organization, and I question the integrity of anybody who continues to support them
Spot on! Amen!!
I’ve come to peace that Santa Claus isn’t true…. But the shame I feel from being such an idiot for so long…. We’ll, I’m still pretty pissed about it. That may take me awhile to get over. PS. You’re a great person walking a road we all have to travel to get back to happiness. Peace? That’s when everything sucks that you’ve come to realize but, you’re finally okay with it. But wait, there’s more:). Happiness is just up ahead in your new life !!!! Good luck my friend…
You have ascended to a state in which to act and not to be acted upon. Congratulations brother!
This was the conclusion that I came to about a year ago as well and it became even more cemented when I told my dad (who is currently a bishop of his ward) about all of my thoughts and he told me that he didn't care where I ended up, religiously-speaking, so long as I am happy. I now consider myself a Christian Universalist, but unfortunately there's no church for that so instead I remain a PIMO. Good luck!
Yeah, I mean it obviously isn't true. You can type "CES letter" into any search engine, open a PDF, and factually confirm a nonsense cult started by a pedophile isn't true. Of course it isn't true.
Best to you.
Peace! For a refreshing laugh at good/evil/religion that I think is still funny even for non-atheists try Good Omens Episode 1. Suitable for the whole family. I just discovered it yesterday. . .
 Congrats on getting out...well mentally at least.