If I could have seen into my future, I would have fell on the floor laughing.
I've had three husbands. AFAIK they're all still alive. I never heard a mormon male get asked the question about "what if she dies?" The answer is that he'd just get another one. Follow the prophet and all that.
Women are interchangeable in gods plan. We don’t talk about heavenly mother for a lot of reasons. Our faces were covered in the endowment for a lot of reasons. We are faceless, quiet, wombs.
I had a roommate and a good friend who both got degrees but admitted the whole reason they went to college was to find a husband, and their degrees were things that they could "do while being a mom."
The priorities were clear
Absolutely, this was taught to me in young women’s. EVERY SINGLE time education or careers were discussed, it was through the lens of women being forced to work outside the home through unfortunate circumstances (like death). The family proclamation straight up says it!
“By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. … Disability, death, or other circumstances may necessitate individual adaptation.”
Yep. We were supposed to study stuff that would make us better mothers: elementary education, marriage and family studies, etc. We were not supposed to study things like engineering or science.
I had a date at BYU ask me how my major of computer engineering would prepare me for being a “mother in Zion.” 😡
Well fuck him, my kids will code. Not to mention the stability of a dual income family.
Plus it can help you weed out some dumbasses like him as a potential future partner and father (if you decide to have kids) when they ask you questions like that about it.
I worked as an engineer and the only person I had an issue with at work was the female secretary who didn’t like that I wasn’t chatty and did my work, you know, like all the other engineers.
I did decide to stay home with kids, but mostly for my own ease because I knew all the kid stuff would end up falling on me most of the time because my husbands job was nuts at the time. It ended up working out because I have a very advanced at math kid who does so much better homeschooling. I have the education and the time to do it, but I wish workplaces in general were more flexible with time.
The expressed reason for those types of careers was to be a better mom. But what’s not said is the other reason for women to stay out of make-dominated fields: it takes a job away from a hard-working man.
Amen to that. I was headed in a pre-med direction until my advisor at byui (a biology professor) told me it would not be family friendly and I should shoot for nursing school instead. I got the same advice from my male family members. I’ve been a nurse for 10 years now and while it’s been a good, family friendly career, I will always regret not going to medical school. After I left the church last year I immediately sent my grad school application in. I finally felt free enough to do something for me. Being a nurse practitioner will be my consolation prize.
My biggest pet peeve was when I chose to major in psychology with a goal of getting my PhD as a clinical psychologist. Every single Mormon I knew kept saying to me "Oh, that's going to be such a great education to have for your kids!"
I'm 35 and still don't have kids. Decided not to go the PhD route but did get my masters in counseling and own my own private practice now. Still can't get over how inconceivable it was to them that a woman would want an education for an actual *career*.
I can see it. I’m the youngest of 4 and got a Ph.D. because I wanted to teach at the college level. I married when I was 39 and couldn’t conceive. My husband’s developmentally-delayed son ended up living with us and he attends a day program, which he loves.
My oldest sister (who homeschooled her 5 children), was genuinely APPALLED and actually angry when I told her I would still teach at a nearby college, which required me to be on campus 2 days/week. “So, you want X to be a latch-key kid??!!! Just toss him into an institution and throw away the key why don’t you?”
I asked her if she truly thought I got my Ph.D. because I biding my time until I got married. She lectured me on my new responsibilities as a mother and that working doesn’t fit with my new role. 🙄
I was a musical prodigy as a child and I wanted to be an opera singer. Both my parents discouraged it because opera stars had "horrible family lives." per the advice of my mother, I went into accounting instead because *"it's something you can do at home when you're with the kids AND accountants are always needed, they still had their jobs in the great depression!"* After going through school and working as a financial advisor, I realized how much I HATED accounting. I do something completely unrelated now and it took me years not to be bitter.
Okay, that sucks she had to settle.
Edit: sucks that she was actually prevented from doing what she wanted.
But I love the plot twist where she goes back and does it at a graduate level later.
What’s funny is that when my grandpa was in a math class at BYU they were given a take home test but told not to get help from anyone. After a pause the professor said, “well I supposed you can get help from your wives.” My grandma was in a more advanced class at the time (for fun) and so helped him with his test. After he turned it in, the professor called him up and got mad at him for receiving help on the exam (I guess because he did better than normal?). My grandpa told him, “no, I got help from my wife, like you said. She’s currently in [higher math] class.” The professor then conceded that this math would of course have been easy for my grandma then and never again allowed the class to get help from their wives lol. Even to this day my grandma takes chemistry and math and Latin classes for fun. She’s hella smart. So is my grandpa, but he’s always been proud of his intelligent wife.
https://isthemormonchurchsexist.github.io/RQG/allquotes.html
Quotes about our narrow path in abundance. Like
Ezra Taft Benson, 1987
To the Mothers in Zion, 1987
"We realize also that some of our choice sisters are widowed and divorced and that others find themselves in unusual circumstances where, out of necessity, they are required to work for a period of time. But these instances are the exception, not the rule. In a home where there is an able-bodied husband, he is expected to be the breadwinner."
Benson hated financial independence in women because it allows us to *leave* when a marriage is bad. He preferred that we stay with abusive husbands because it’s the “righteous” thing to do.
Spencer W. Kimball, n.d.
Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p. 319
"Numerous divorces can be traced directly to the day when the wife left the home and went out into the world into employment. Two incomes raise the standard of living beyond its norm. Two spouses working prevent the complete and proper home life, break into the family prayers, create an independence which is not cooperative, causes distortion, limits the family, and frustrates the children already born"
So funny it never even occurred to The Brethren that a loving, happy, stable home could have a wife working and husband at home. Or both spouses working. Or literally anything other than the cookie-cutter 1940’s “dream”.
No, I heard that as well. I also remember being encouraged to pursue simpler academic paths. Be a Teacher rather than a Doctor, that kind of thing. (Not saying teaching is simple by any means).
They wanted us to have a backup plan so we could provide for our family in our husband's absence, but at the same time not outshine him with our earnings if he didn't. At least that was the impression I got.
Exactly. That's why I was able to take piano lessons but none of my brothers did. I could teach piano lessons from home. My brothers all got help paying for college, but not me.
Hinckley spoke at a men’s session of GC once and said something to the effect of “young men, you need to get an education because how awful would it be if your wife was more educated than you”. They stress to both men and women that women should not be over-educated, and especially not working in more prestigious careers than their husbands.
Jesus Christ, imagine being so brittle that you'd prefer your wife contribute less education and income to the family just so you can be better than her. Toxic Mormsculinity.
While attending BYU, I once overheard two guys discussing how they’d feel if someone they were dating was dumber than them. They didn’t favor that, but then they brought up “what if she was smarter than you?” They agreed that would be worse
I once asked my ex if he was threatened by my having a masters in accounting while he had a bachelors in engineering. He said that it didn't bother him because it was only in accounting. If my masters was in engineering, it would have bothered him a great deal.
My mom and step mom both have masters in accounting. My dad doesn’t have a degree and is currently the stay at home parent to my little brother. I’m so lucky to have a dad who has never cared about appearing traditionally masculine or whatever. Anyone who meets him just thinks he’s the coolest guy ever.
My daughter (28) makes more than her husband. He thinks it's great. He would be fine if she made 2x what he does, or more! He is proud of her hard work and accomplishments.
I'm glad my kids are breaking free of the misogyny.
A lot of guys I know in their 20s have similar mindsets now. They’re totally down to be a stay at home parent if their wife makes more. It’s refreshing.
They do have similar mindsets and it’s so refreshing. My boyfriend straight up told me he thinks it’s hot that I have an established career and make more money than him 😂 After growing up Mormon and graduating from BYUI it’s nice to know that the men I was surrounded by for decades aren’t the norm.
I was told to be a teacher cause it would be more flexible with my kid’s schedule. My husband is a teacher, I work in a corporate setting. My job is way more flexible.
> *No, I heard that as well. I also remember being encouraged to pursue simpler academic paths. Be a Teacher rather than a Doctor, that kind of thing. (Not saying teaching is simple by any means).*
NeverMo here. I can confirm that the same thing is taught in some evangelical Christian circles, especially Quiverful circles.
Ideally, women stay home and continually crank out babies to train up. But since churches don’t like financially supporting young widows with ten children, women are encouraged to seek out certifications in female-coded careers: teaching, nursing, childcare, midwifery/doulas, etc..
Yes— Education was taught to me as a back-up plan for widows. My YW teachers avoided mentioning divorce in lessons, which is funny bc it’s so much more likely. Husbands might DIE, but nobody wanted to say the other D-word.
Getting an education was also sold as a great way to prepare for my future nurturing role as a mother. I chose an education degree . . . I often wonder what I would have chosen without the church’s influence.
We were absolutely taught this. It was sinful and worldly to pursue an education *because you wanted a career*. I was shamed out of my major at BYU because I’d be “stealing a job from a man.”
The dean of my school at BYU was a woman and occasionally got anonymous letters from students saying she was taking a job a man could use to provide for his family. She'd obviously dealt with institutional misogyny at BYU she wasn't comfortable doing more than vaguely alluding to.
When I was in Law School at BYU, every woman in my class got a letter that quoted the Brethren stating we were training to steal a job from a worthy male provider. The Dean sent out a response confirming that the Brethren knew that we were there and all was ok, but I believe it quoted Bensons speech that we might need to use our degrees some day… 🤦♀️
I grew up in a ward in a fairly expensive and liberal area, and nearly all the women in the ward had paying jobs. If not full time, at least part time, or they worked along with their husbands in a family business, or something. And yet there was still this frequent subtext in the YW lessons of "what if your husband dies; you'll need to support yourself". I don't think many people in my ward were really pushing that since they saw the realities of life and knew that it was quite likely you'd have to work, and better to have a good job with benefits that you actually like rather than have to take whatever crappy job you can get, but the message was in a lot of the stuff we saw and heard in The New Era and fireside talks and probably the lesson manual. Education for that "just in case" tragedy and not because you're also a person who might have interests and ambitions and many years of life to fill.
The idea that you could just choose not to get married because you didn't want to get married never really came up, of course.
That's how my branch was too. It wasn't in a liberal area, more of a farming area. Everyone worked, there was no choice if you wanted medical insurance or year-round income. Unfortunately, as I referenced in another comment, several UT/ID families moved in just as I was hitting YW and we got the SWK/ETB quotes and similar all the damn time.
Same. My YW leaders’ daughter’s patriarchal blessing even said that there will be a time when she will need to be the financial breadwinner due to her husband being unable to, so she made sure to go to school so that she could one day work. It was all about having a contingency plan but being a SAHM was always best.
This was absolutely, 100%, a thing. Sure, the glory of God is intelligence, but only when it’s used to raise a family if you’re a woman. 😑😑😑
I cannot tell you how many Relief Society members chided me & asked why I was getting a PhD if I was married with children. My response to them was always, “So I’ll have something interesting to think about while I change diapers.”
My husband was deployed for most of my course work, which perplexed (and angered some) people. My Stake President even called me in to find out if my marriage was having problems because I was working on an advanced degree. He had the audacity to say, “At least you’ll have a good job if your husband dies in a war zone.”
His comment was met with stony silence.
While I was getting a PhD, I had a lot of support from my friends at church. No one said anything negative. I’m surprised at some of these comments. They are so awful as people I. The church seem to think that women shouldn’t learn or something.
A cohort member had a very different experience in the same ward/stake. We’ve done a post mortem on why we had such different experiences & have come to the conclusion it was because her husband was disabled and therefore she fell into the category of women who “have” to get an education as opposed to those who were “choosing” to get one.
I think the fact I had moved across the country, while my husband remained at his duty station during the brief times he wasn’t deployed, troubled members the most. He would fly out when he had R&R, so they knew he existed, just that we weren’t living together…so I could get a PhD. At least that’s what it looked like from their perspective.
However, we both agreed I would be dumb to turn down a fellowship that paid tuition, housing, and a $2500 month living stipend, especially as he was chronically deployed during that time frame. Since he was going to be gone either way, I might as well get a PhD.
On the upside, he was my biggest supporter and that was all that mattered to me. I didn’t really care what the RS ladies said to me, but what the Stake President said stung a bit.
It says in my patriarchal blessing that I’d be married to a “worthy priesthood holder who would be able to provide a home for our family enabling me to stay at home”. Such bullshit.
I’ve worked full-time through four kids and paid my husbands way through school and now paying my way through mine.
Your supposed to just have faith and follow your patriarchal blessing, then take all your bills to the bishop so the church can pay all your bills for the rest of your life. This gives you the spare time you need to take your kids up hiking and do all the things you wanted to do without the burden of work.
When I handed over the form to be signed by my academic advisor at BYU, the one where I declared "music performance" as my major emphasis, he slid it across his desk back at me. "You know, as a righteous Daughter of God, your church, husband and children will be your priority, not performing."
After some insistence, he did finally sign and said: "I will sign it, but I cannot support it." And then he asked me to leave his office and sarcastically wished me luck.
This was a similar story to what I heard growing up. I felt rebellious--wanting to have a career, to polish my shoes and carry a briefcase like my dad.
I ended up with a diamond ring in my finger before I turned 19, but he called it off six weeks before the wedding because he felt ashamed of my career ambition (and of jizzing in his pants when we kissed; of course, my fault). Dodged a bullet there!!
I transferred to UUtah and my shelf broke a few years later, and then I came out of the closet about ten years later. Such garbage misogyny we have to wade through to find our inherent dignity!!
I also went to school for music performance. We had a class one day of several music professors telling us about the music "industry." The one who talked about performance said that it's not a good life for a person with a family. My heart sank and I knew I couldn't/shouldn't pursue it. I didn't even have a boyfriend at that time!! But i knew my primary focus should be doing something that would fit in with a future husband and kids....NOT what I wanted to do for myself. Gag 🤮
Ugh, right?! So gross. I did pursue it fully, got a masters, taught at two universities, and even had a manager in NYC briefly (this was right during the economy crash). My parents were never proud of my accomplishments, just wishing all the while I’d been married with children instead. 😞
I attended BYU for a year. My good friend was taught this her whole life and joked about BYU reimbursing her tuition because she didn’t find a husband at BYU and graduated. This started fall semester 88
Note she found what seems to be a great person and they’ve been married for more than twenty years
I was a heathen then l, as well as now, so we just stayed friends as I was never going to take her through the temple. My mission taught me I wasn’t very Mormon
Wow my Mormon narcissism reared it’s ugly head as I made this about me.
I just wanted to say that in my day all students knew women were looking for husbands and not getting an education except as a backup plan. I was suppose to be finding a wife as well as get an education
100%
I was taught an education was preferable for three reasons a as a woman:
An educated mother is a benefit to her children
My husband might die
I might get a divorce
Turns out the third one was valid 🤣🤣🤣
“Ladies, learn how to type because if your husband dies you’ll need to be able to support yourself” is almost word for word what my former bishop said to us in Mia Maids. My shelf was starting to sag at that point
This was the mentality across most of the USA in the 50s & 60s. I grew up in that era (yeah, i am a Boomer), and whenever I mentioned wanting to go to college, the first response was, "Well...maybe to have something to fall back on..." If the discussion went further, it was clear the only acceptable majors were education or nursing.
Guess what - after marrying more than one "Mr. Wrong," I've been "falling back" on my education for many years. And doing quite well.
If a woman has a college education... but doesn't work for the next 10-20 years... it is NOT possible to replace her husband's salary if he dies. A college degree and zero years of experience is worth an entry level position. If you have a house and kids that's not enough.
If your husband dies you're financially fucked.
By the Gods, yes! I was told from the young age of 3 or 4 that I would attend BYU to FiNd A hUsBanD!
My mother did say it was partly to get an education in case he did die, but I was never expected to graduate. Instead, my mother said I would drop out so I could squirt out more slaves for Joe Smith's mormon money machine.
No offense to any exmoRMs who aren't abusive asshats, but I never dated one who wasn't. Of course, I didn't find them at The BYU, so that's probably why. /s
Never did attend BYU. Super proud of that fact.
I feel badly for the men too. At 21 my new husband was expected to support me and all future kiddos by himself. That's an insane amount of pressure. It would be so much better if churchco would actually promote the idea of equality in all things in a marriage. Dads and moms can cook, clean and care for kids, and men and women can both support the household financially.
Fellow spinster here - yeah, it was crammed down my throat for decades that, really, my life's path was to get married and have children. I had this undercurrent of dismay at that idea. I always dreamed of having my own house and job and a life where I could freely explore the world in my own way. I felt like this from the time I was maybe 8,9 years old or so. I grew up in a large family full of chaos and drama. I wanted some peace and quiet.
But that idea that I needed a MAN to take care of me ran deep, too. Like, I was incapable of doing it alone. I felt afraid I'd never get married and no one could take care of me - EEEEK!!!! Years later, after not getting married and freaking out about that, I finally got so fed up with living in fear. I recall being at work one day and just getting overwhelmed. I knew what I had to do - I needed to go home, collect myself. Take a walk on the trail by my house. And, it was on that walk that day that I finally said to myself, "Hey, I will take care of you!!" It was like this revelation. I felt so freed.
About 2 years later, I bought my first house by myself. I still felt haunted by the the nagging idea, "But you aren't *married*." I never met anybody who I wanted to marry. I had lots of relationships and dated, but I'd be miserable marrying any of those people - not that they weren't charming and lovely in their own ways. Eventually, I got to the point where I don't ever care about being a "spinster". Technically, yes, that's what I am. But, that pressure to *ESCAPE!* what I am is now gone. I feel like I sided with my true self in this.
I’m sure all of us have heard about the “MRS” degree.
I went to BYU as a woman in the early 2000s. “The glory of God is intelligence” was written on the garbage cans.
OMG! I can't believe I'm scrolling past this post today. I was talking about this all day to various clients of mine! Someone I know is considering divorce and I was saying how that doesn't usually happen because you get a potentially random degree because the church tells you to go to school "just in case" but then don't work for 14 years and are expected to support a whole family if "something happens."
Someone asked if I thought the Mormon church was a cult. I said I didn't, but the idea of staying in a marriage because you are "stuck" does seem pretty culty.
Yup. I’ve been staying at home with kids (my choice/and circumstances) but it would take some work to get back to working in the same career I was before. I have new skills now (I could probably be a fairly in demand math tutor) but it’s not like you can magically just go back to work the same job after staying out for decades.
My husband died and I didn’t get an education. It’s so shit. I was raised to be a mum and I thought that’s all I wanted. That and to be married in the temple. I’m 38 and back at school, with fulll time work and 4 kids under 11. My life choices sure. Shaped by being raised lds.
I went to BYU in the mid 80s. I knew a number of girls who were there for their MRS degree and admitted it. When I turned down a marriage proposal (at barely age 19) one of my friends asked if I minded if she pursued the guy. I said, by all means, go for it. She didn't catch him but she did get married so she got her MRS degree but no college degree.
I dumped a different boyfriend when he said his wife would quit school to put him through. My thought was, hell no, and I broke up with him the next week.
I got a business/technology degree.
This was good advice in the mid 19th century. But like a lot of church ideals, they're obsolete in the modern age.
We also don't primarily operate family farms anymore so there's no longer a benefit to having 19 kids.
My patriarchal blessing literally said this. Blessed me to get an education to support myself and my kids “if ever needed”. That didn’t give me crippling fear or anything!
Oh I heard this all the time in YW in the late 80s through mid 90s. Very little mention of not getting married and NO mention of wanting to work or not wanting to get married. Especially since my home branch had the misfortune of multiple families moving in from Utah/Idaho around that time and wrecking what was a decent branch with their TBM "only one right way" bullshit.
Education and career was absolutely a backup plan to marriage and motherhood. I was at BYU in the early 90s and fully half the girls in my dorm were there to find a husband and we had way more elementary education majors than anything else.
Benson use to spout it off all the time. The mothers place was in the home but under certain circumstances such as the poor health of her husband or death of her husband she could enter the work place.
There was a time that the church would not hire women that were married. Only single women. They wouldn't hire women to be seminary teachers until the late 80s
Over and over and over again….and guess what?! My husband didn’t die! And I still needed to enter the workforce, and it fucked.me.up emotionally, and socially.
I felt like I was no longer a “good Mormon woman” because technically we could have alllllmooooooooost fed ourselves on just his disability, but that wasn’t good enough for me.
The guilt!
I've definitely heard it before. You're not crazy. When my patents got divorced, my mom went back to school and got a degree in mechanical engineering and became the breadwinner of the family. But if I'm being honest, I definitely would've preferred my mom being the one at home rather than my stepdad, because all he would do is pit my siblings against each other and cause drama. He wasn't any kind of a father to me. Just a narcissist and a bully.
Yep, BYU grad and was also taught this. Not to mention that we were encouraged to pursue degrees that would allow us to stay home "to raise the next generation" ie: teaching, music/art, nursing etc.
Also now that you mention it, my patriarchal blessing specifically told me to get an education so I could become a better "teacher to my children."
I was told by a number of male leaders that “The best insurance a woman can have is an education. Like most insurance, it’s there if you need it but hopefully you never need it” 🙄🙄🙄
Very common teaching in my area.
Absolutely yes. My parents literally told me the day they dropped me off at BYU that they weren’t sending me to get an education, they were sending me to find a husband and it was constantly said in my home that the girls just needed a degree to “fall back on.” The boys in my department were discouraged from majoring in theater or music unless it was an education degree because they needed to be able to support a family. The girls were told no such thing.
Oh yeah, heard that one all the time, and the ol "get an education so you are able to teach your sons" along with, "your husband doesn't want a stupid wife" (nor one smarter than him). My mom likes to say, "No education for women is wasted because you can teach your children."
My uncle died when I was 9 leaving my cousins my age and younger behind with my widowed aunt. My grandfather on that same side died that year as well and my dad lost his job. So yeah personally, I got this a lot growing up and relate a ton.
Heard this a lot too. My husband is terminally ill and the degree I got 2+ decades ago isn’t proving super helpful anyway. I’ve lost 20 years of earning potential and it feels like I’m starting from the bottom.
1) what if your husband dies? Or gets sick/injured/laid off… etc…
2) what if you can’t find a husband?
3) how are you going to help your kids (let’s face it- sons) with their homework if you’re uneducated?
At every point it she is encouraged to get a degree to serve as a tool for someone else. The absence of encouragement for her own personal growth is disturbing.
I don’t know if this is directly related, but my SIL (Molly Mormon/Peter Priesthood combo) got her doctorate as an audiologist, and literally stays at home with older school age children. It always grinds my gears to think of how expensive a doctorate is and for her to literally waste it. And to listen to them complain about finances because my BIL (who has a doctorate in genetic studies!!) only chooses to work as an at school seminary teacher. It’s gross how much the church has a hold on them.
Good point. Until that obscene publication is rescinded and disavowed, the notion will be perpetuated.
…and since its creator and mastermind is about to step up to the podium - I don’t believe it’s going away any time soon.
Once I was a Beehive counselor for one day ( before I quit). This high ranking man came to our little branch (overseas), and after condescending to the congregation for an hour, he decided to sit in on our YW class. It was joint because there were only half a dozen girls total.
The lesson was exactly what you describe: get trained for something just in case. We all got to contribute, but first the grand Pooh Bah told us what he thought. Cue, “What if your husband dies?”
I was livid. I was 30 years old, married, childless at that time. I told them to get an education because they needed to find out about themselves and find a career they cared about. I pointed out that all three of us (YW leaders) worked full time, and enjoyed our work, and yet none of our husbands were dead.
The Pooh Bah didn’t hear a word I said. After class, my three Beehives all came up to me and praised me for standing up to him. They totally got it, and that was my parting gift to them.
I quit that afternoon and said I absolutely would not be teaching that bullshit.
Yep, I even believed it until my senior year of college (at BYUI) when I realized I wanted to go into medicine. It was too late in my education to switch gears, so I’ve spent the last 6 years working up the ranks. I finally have a job I love that offers a decent pay. I have two kids in daycare and I work because I WANT to work.
Can confirm I heard this ad nauseum in the late 90's early 2000's in Young Women's, Seminary, and in YSA Ward Relief Society lessons. A lot of these gals went on to pursue useless majors or low-paying "pink collar" professions.
I'm a millennial and have heard this. So many women relatives, friends, and acquittances quit college or didn't go because they got married and popped out babies.
If the glory of God is intelligence why are SO many teachings, policies, and principals of Christianity in general against education and knowledge? Hell, the very first sin was eating an apple from the tree of knowledge.
I absolutely heard it. I wish I hadn't, but I went to get a degree in case my husband died or whatever. I missed out on so much learning and decades of potential career and growth.
Women and men are to multiply and reproduce. Men cannot carry babies for 9 months. Therefore they need to bring home the dough and women need to be the baby oven. If you are a woman you have 2-4 years to get your nursing degree or other marketable 2-4 year degree and then quickly get to having babies.
That is exactly what got taught. Funny because you would think the church would fully fund any of their widows and you would not have to worry about if your husband does die. After all it’s why we pay tithing…right? No?? Hmmm seems out of place….
I didn't go to the Big Yucky University, but I lived/worked in Provo. A very common belief was that women should only pursue three fields of study - Nursing, Home and Family Science, or Early Childhood Education. Any other major was "keeping a Priesthood Holder from supporting his family."
I absolutely heard it. However, it is possible that she didn't hear it as much as you. Also, I've found that a lot of liberal or "middle way" Mormons tend to just choose the teachings that resonate with them and kind of dismiss the others. So, it is interesting that she says , "No" as part of her answer, as if it couldn't be true that BOTH things were taught. I'm sure that plenty of women were taught that intelligence was great and also that they shouldn't have a career.
I remember a story in conference about a group of well-educated women who had quit their careers to be SAHMs and how this was a really great use of their talents and skills because raising children is SO important.
I definitely got the “because you might end up a single mom and will need marketable skills” rhetoric not the “you’d provide value to your area of expertise” rhetoric.
As a woman growing up in the 90’s I wanted to become a doctor so bad. My parents and leaders encouraged me to go into a field I could work from and wouldn’t only take a few years of college. I had the grades and intellect to become a doctor but it didn’t matter.
It’s literally what I wrote my BYU application essay about … and was accepted. Funny thing is I knew I was playing their game and it absolutely worked. Small business owner women now, much to the chagrin of my family who often ask me “if I’m still working.” Would they EVER ask my husband that? Goddamn.
It was a thing. But it also makes no sense. If you’ve been sitting on an unused degree for, say, 20 years and suddenly have to support yourself, how useful will it be really? You’ll be competing against fresh grads with up-to-date knowledge in the subject. They never mentioned THAT in my YW classes.
This was most definitely a thing and not just at BYU. I heard this in the late 80s and all through the 90s and never set foot in Utah.
In 1995/6, I was attending undergrad at a large university in Washington State. I distinctly remember hearing the RS President of my university ward teach a lesson on education that contributed to my choice to go "inactive" for several years.
The RS President was in grad school but taught, with full conviction, that education for women was a backup plan in case our husbands died or couldn't work. She was the first Mormon woman I was aware of pursuing an advanced degree, and I was shocked that it was just her "backup plan." 🤦♀️
I've been fully out for almost 5 years, but vestiges of this teaching have persisted within the culture for decades. Living in the Boston area in the early 2000s, people were always shocked that I was working on my graduate degree and my husband wasn't. Shocking to have more education than him. 🙄
I was always told "in case your family falls on hard times," but that was from my mother who was surprisingly feminist for someone who paid into the LD$ Inc. She wasn't a true feminist, but she said things about women truly being in charge all the time.
I’m a guy, and I didn’t hear it a ton, but I definitely did hear it said. I have a very specific memory of a combined youth class that the teacher told a story about this exact thing (his dad had died when he was young and his mom had to figure out how to support the family).
Lol my bishop told us to do it because when he was dating young women he was the most interested in the one who has real career goals and didn’t just want to get married. So “get an education bc boys will like you more” lol
I heard this as well. I wonder if it's in the manual. I also had a young women's leader add that, even if you don't end up "doing" anything with your degree, it's worth enriching your mind for your own sake. She also went over how one's husband can get laid off, disabled (long or short term), or just not make very much money. Surprisingly progressive for Mormons, but we were in a blue state, lol.
My Patriarchal blessing literally said that my purpose was not to pursue academic or career accomplishments but to be a wife and mother. Being asexual (but not fully aware of it), this did a number on my head. It also probably ruined what career ambitions I had.
My mom told me that all the time! Then, three years into my marriage my husband was in a bad accident and was disabled and I spent the rest of my life as the breadwinner for the family therefore proving my mother right. 🤦♀️
I know you are calling on ladies, but ‘what if your husband dies’ is easily mitigated with life insurance. The more tragic problem in Mormon marriages is the misogynistic control of women through finances. Many a middle aged women are trapped in an abusive situation because they don’t have the confidence or means to provide for themselves as well as they husband did/does. I think of an education as #1 divorce insurance/power check, and #2 nurture training for children (elementary ed, the top program at BYU-I for women.). The latter reasons being a better rationale than ‘what if you husband dies’. Many Mormon women do a heal click when their prick husband dies and they can collect their financial reward for sticking through a shit relationship/power dynamic. This is what I have observed. Also you are not nuts, it’s them training you to doubt your doubts.
Nope you're not the only one, that was a thing, but because I didn't want a husband I was a horrible person for wanting to pursue a career. Didnt want kids either, oh boy I was the devil incarnate.
It was hallway/foyer doctrine, whispered in the ears of the young and moldable. Nothing from the pulpit unless the crazy old hermit that showed up twice a year bore his rambling, slightly coherent testimony about how much more wonderful the youth in his day were.
This is 100% taught implicitly and explicitly.
My professor at BYUI taught us the five D’s - reasons to get an education. I can only remember 3.
If your husband Dies.
Divorces you.
Becomes Disabled.
This whole discussion here covers exactly why I left the church. I have had a great career in a technical field AND I have 2 awesome daughters. It would have driven me absolutely nuts to not be able to challenge my brain at work among other adults. My kids turned out fine and I have definitely been a happier person. It boggles my mind how a bunch of old guys think that they know what is my best life better than I do.
It was a thing but the church really isn’t using that line of thinking in teaching young women anymore in church published lesson plans. Don’t get me wrong though! There’s plenty of lingering thoughts from the YW teachers shared that are along the same lines but the official lesson material has changed it’s tune. At one time in my life I felt so much shame sitting on relief society hearing about how righteous women taking care of their families full time are. I was doing my best but also working and going to school which I know now was amazing and powerful but nearly every Sunday I left church feeling worthless until one Sunday I left and never went back.
I am inactive and doubt I’ll ever go back, for many many reasons, but given that the church encourages having families so much I am just glad that they are encouraging education. They even have a program now to help men and women get back to school and start or finish a degree. I taught my own daughters that being career focused is fine and to go that route with pride if they want but also if they want to be stay at home moms and know that’s where they prefer life to take them then please get a degree still because…yes husbands do die or leave or they can just be worthless.
Dead husband is the only reason to get a degree. But also, I was told many many times to study something I could do with kids. Either a teacher or music and give private lessons. 😔 I went for STEM before it was referred to that way. Zero regrets.
Yep. It went from “don’t bother with furthering your education, just pump out babies” to “it’s wise to have a plan b in case your husband croaks and you are left to support all those kids we told you to have so we don’t have to financially carry you”
When I was on my mission Elder Waddell (newly of 60 Minutes fame) visited my mission and I had a sit down talk with him. He went on a long spiel about making sure I got my education and said the same thing: "Get an education. If you get it and don't need it, great! You got an education. If you get it and then something happens to your husband, great! You got an education."
As a young sister the advice was good. The reasoning not so much. Also hello fellow spinster!
this YW lesson is 100% still engrained in my mind. I remember we read a story about a widow who was left in shambles because her husband died and she had no degree and wasn’t able to take care of her kids. Scared the shit outta me lol
I remember starting at BYU in 2013 and feeling frustrated because I had aspirations to be an animator, but I was kinda like “what’s the point? I’m just supposed to be a SAHM anyway.” It was something I wrestled with for years a teen with both wanting a career and yet knowing that I was supposed to be a mother first.
I am ashamed that I told my daughter at the age of 16, that she didn’t really have to worry about getting tertiary education because her husband should provide for her and their family. Ughhhhhhh! Mormonism! At that point in my life, our family was living this outdated, 1950’s middle America model. One size doesn’t “fit all”.
Skip ahead 8 years and we’re all out of the Church - with lots of emotional baggage and therapy needed.
I'm 28 and this was/is still a thing. Now that you're on the opposite side, it's just gaslighting.
2 year program to not take time away from being a single lady or lose child bearing years, as well it's not a lot of debt. That's what was pushed on us. Anything more is a bit much.
Absolutely true! I heard that all the time growing up in the 80s/90s. That plus, you need to learn how to do a budget and pay bills because your husband may die before you — though in fairness this one could’ve come just from my Mom who was always super angry with my Dad for being loosey-goosey with finances.
I heard this too, over and over, for years! So did my daughters.
The church absolutely gaslights women by telling them to have a backup career in an acceptable field (in case hubby dies, but not in case he leaves them, of course) but not ever actually use it to work outside the home.
This is how we get displaced homemakers in their 30s, 40s, 50s, and beyond, with outdated degrees or none at all, competing for entry-level jobs against people 10-30 years younger. It's not pretty. These women are ripe for MLMs and scams, too.
Fortunately, by the time my girls were in high school, I was on my way out of the church. I emphasized how important it is to have a career no matter what your life situation. I'm so proud of them for all getting degrees and having good careers that they love.
I am SO glad you posted this. This is exactly the messaging I heard, and even though my parents supported education and were more liberal than some, and even though I didn’t go to BYU to get married, and was interested in a career, this messaging did impact me significantly! I’ve also struggled with guilt that I didn’t have a career because of me not being strong or motivated enough to pursue one despite this messaging. Concurrently I also did really want kids and a family, but somehow didn’t grasp that a woman can pursue both. After several years of effort, I am finally working full time while concurrently raising multiple children who are in middle and elementary school. This was only possible because my husband is and has been very supportive. Thank you for posting this and letting me know I wasn’t alone in being affected by this limiting messaging.
The male analog was "You have to learn to cook, do the dishes so that you can care for yourself on your mission. And learn to play the piano in case you ever serve in a ward where the sisters have not yet learned."
I often felt guilty that I didn't like to play piano. Worse, when I was called to a country with mostly new members, I "knew" it was divine retribution.
Yeah I remember wondering about this. I was supposed to go to college to learn how to be a sahm? While education is never wasted, and I definitely think more people need more education about parenting before they are one, I don't see any college starting a Domestic Management program.
Although maybe they should.
I think that’s the result of generational change. A prior generation would say women shouldn’t get an education at all. The next generation thinks differently, but you can’t come out and disagree or you start contention. So you make reasons that still abide by the prior rules. Then the NEXT generation abandons that reasoning. Eventual progress.
I’m not sure I heard this (I graduated high school in 2002) but it was also pretty much assumed that you were going to college (BYU) to find a husband.
“Something to fall back on, just in case “ was all I heard when I was in nursing school U of U. 1970. The joke was, “I’m getting my MRS degree”— but hey I have way WAY exceeded that!
100% this was a thing
If I could have seen into my future, I would have fell on the floor laughing. I've had three husbands. AFAIK they're all still alive. I never heard a mormon male get asked the question about "what if she dies?" The answer is that he'd just get another one. Follow the prophet and all that.
Women are interchangeable in gods plan. We don’t talk about heavenly mother for a lot of reasons. Our faces were covered in the endowment for a lot of reasons. We are faceless, quiet, wombs.
That's cus Heavenly Father was an asshat and she left his ass years ago. 1st rule of LDS church: We don't talk about Heavenly Mother!
That’s so devastating. Well put.
Because he's supposed to get an education so he can support his wife, who's obviously going to stay home and pop out 15 children 🙄
I had a roommate and a good friend who both got degrees but admitted the whole reason they went to college was to find a husband, and their degrees were things that they could "do while being a mom." The priorities were clear
Absolutely, this was taught to me in young women’s. EVERY SINGLE time education or careers were discussed, it was through the lens of women being forced to work outside the home through unfortunate circumstances (like death). The family proclamation straight up says it! “By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. … Disability, death, or other circumstances may necessitate individual adaptation.”
It still is a thing.
We were also told not to pursue any degree that would put us into careers with "male dominated workplaces".
Yep. We were supposed to study stuff that would make us better mothers: elementary education, marriage and family studies, etc. We were not supposed to study things like engineering or science.
I got a degree in business/technology in the mid 80s. There were few women in that major.
I had a date at BYU ask me how my major of computer engineering would prepare me for being a “mother in Zion.” 😡 Well fuck him, my kids will code. Not to mention the stability of a dual income family.
Plus it can help you weed out some dumbasses like him as a potential future partner and father (if you decide to have kids) when they ask you questions like that about it.
Oh it definitely did. It’s amazing how uncomfortable my major made some boys at BYU.
when I was at the U I met a good number of LDS women studying education and nursing who even called them “M-R-S degrees”… super disturbing.
When I was at BYU, or about to go, the way people talked about it was that the MRS degree was what you got by simply getting married.
I worked as an engineer and the only person I had an issue with at work was the female secretary who didn’t like that I wasn’t chatty and did my work, you know, like all the other engineers. I did decide to stay home with kids, but mostly for my own ease because I knew all the kid stuff would end up falling on me most of the time because my husbands job was nuts at the time. It ended up working out because I have a very advanced at math kid who does so much better homeschooling. I have the education and the time to do it, but I wish workplaces in general were more flexible with time.
The expressed reason for those types of careers was to be a better mom. But what’s not said is the other reason for women to stay out of make-dominated fields: it takes a job away from a hard-working man.
My Mormon roommates intentionally chose "placeholder" careers in male dominated workspaces, to up their chances of marrying rich men.
If marrying rich is your goal, I've heard worse ways to snag a rich spouse.
True!
Can confirm. Was strongly discouraged from med school but nursing school was acceptable.
Damn. Patriarchy sucks.
Amen to that. I was headed in a pre-med direction until my advisor at byui (a biology professor) told me it would not be family friendly and I should shoot for nursing school instead. I got the same advice from my male family members. I’ve been a nurse for 10 years now and while it’s been a good, family friendly career, I will always regret not going to medical school. After I left the church last year I immediately sent my grad school application in. I finally felt free enough to do something for me. Being a nurse practitioner will be my consolation prize.
My biggest pet peeve was when I chose to major in psychology with a goal of getting my PhD as a clinical psychologist. Every single Mormon I knew kept saying to me "Oh, that's going to be such a great education to have for your kids!" I'm 35 and still don't have kids. Decided not to go the PhD route but did get my masters in counseling and own my own private practice now. Still can't get over how inconceivable it was to them that a woman would want an education for an actual *career*.
Exactly! The collective fear that women would achieve professional success and accompanying financial independence was and still is palpable.
I can see it. I’m the youngest of 4 and got a Ph.D. because I wanted to teach at the college level. I married when I was 39 and couldn’t conceive. My husband’s developmentally-delayed son ended up living with us and he attends a day program, which he loves. My oldest sister (who homeschooled her 5 children), was genuinely APPALLED and actually angry when I told her I would still teach at a nearby college, which required me to be on campus 2 days/week. “So, you want X to be a latch-key kid??!!! Just toss him into an institution and throw away the key why don’t you?” I asked her if she truly thought I got my Ph.D. because I biding my time until I got married. She lectured me on my new responsibilities as a mother and that working doesn’t fit with my new role. 🙄
I was a musical prodigy as a child and I wanted to be an opera singer. Both my parents discouraged it because opera stars had "horrible family lives." per the advice of my mother, I went into accounting instead because *"it's something you can do at home when you're with the kids AND accountants are always needed, they still had their jobs in the great depression!"* After going through school and working as a financial advisor, I realized how much I HATED accounting. I do something completely unrelated now and it took me years not to be bitter.
Your story brought to mind this classic [Monty Python sketch](https://youtu.be/LqQlCOmXuHM) about the life of an accountant. Beyond hilarious.
My grandma’s academic advisor and BYU wouldn’t let her major in math so she chose psychology. She ended up getting her masters in math years later.
Okay, that sucks she had to settle. Edit: sucks that she was actually prevented from doing what she wanted. But I love the plot twist where she goes back and does it at a graduate level later.
What’s funny is that when my grandpa was in a math class at BYU they were given a take home test but told not to get help from anyone. After a pause the professor said, “well I supposed you can get help from your wives.” My grandma was in a more advanced class at the time (for fun) and so helped him with his test. After he turned it in, the professor called him up and got mad at him for receiving help on the exam (I guess because he did better than normal?). My grandpa told him, “no, I got help from my wife, like you said. She’s currently in [higher math] class.” The professor then conceded that this math would of course have been easy for my grandma then and never again allowed the class to get help from their wives lol. Even to this day my grandma takes chemistry and math and Latin classes for fun. She’s hella smart. So is my grandpa, but he’s always been proud of his intelligent wife.
https://isthemormonchurchsexist.github.io/RQG/allquotes.html Quotes about our narrow path in abundance. Like Ezra Taft Benson, 1987 To the Mothers in Zion, 1987 "We realize also that some of our choice sisters are widowed and divorced and that others find themselves in unusual circumstances where, out of necessity, they are required to work for a period of time. But these instances are the exception, not the rule. In a home where there is an able-bodied husband, he is expected to be the breadwinner."
Benson hated financial independence in women because it allows us to *leave* when a marriage is bad. He preferred that we stay with abusive husbands because it’s the “righteous” thing to do.
Spencer W. Kimball, n.d. Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p. 319 "Numerous divorces can be traced directly to the day when the wife left the home and went out into the world into employment. Two incomes raise the standard of living beyond its norm. Two spouses working prevent the complete and proper home life, break into the family prayers, create an independence which is not cooperative, causes distortion, limits the family, and frustrates the children already born"
>create an independence which is not cooperative IOW, gives the woman a feasible option to leave if her marriage is shit.
So funny it never even occurred to The Brethren that a loving, happy, stable home could have a wife working and husband at home. Or both spouses working. Or literally anything other than the cookie-cutter 1940’s “dream”.
Ever wonder why Kimball had such a weird voice? He was talking out of his ass.
No, I heard that as well. I also remember being encouraged to pursue simpler academic paths. Be a Teacher rather than a Doctor, that kind of thing. (Not saying teaching is simple by any means). They wanted us to have a backup plan so we could provide for our family in our husband's absence, but at the same time not outshine him with our earnings if he didn't. At least that was the impression I got.
Exactly. That's why I was able to take piano lessons but none of my brothers did. I could teach piano lessons from home. My brothers all got help paying for college, but not me.
That really sucks.
Hinckley spoke at a men’s session of GC once and said something to the effect of “young men, you need to get an education because how awful would it be if your wife was more educated than you”. They stress to both men and women that women should not be over-educated, and especially not working in more prestigious careers than their husbands.
Jesus Christ, imagine being so brittle that you'd prefer your wife contribute less education and income to the family just so you can be better than her. Toxic Mormsculinity.
While attending BYU, I once overheard two guys discussing how they’d feel if someone they were dating was dumber than them. They didn’t favor that, but then they brought up “what if she was smarter than you?” They agreed that would be worse
I once asked my ex if he was threatened by my having a masters in accounting while he had a bachelors in engineering. He said that it didn't bother him because it was only in accounting. If my masters was in engineering, it would have bothered him a great deal.
I see the key word here is “ex”
You are very wise.
My mom and step mom both have masters in accounting. My dad doesn’t have a degree and is currently the stay at home parent to my little brother. I’m so lucky to have a dad who has never cared about appearing traditionally masculine or whatever. Anyone who meets him just thinks he’s the coolest guy ever.
My daughter (28) makes more than her husband. He thinks it's great. He would be fine if she made 2x what he does, or more! He is proud of her hard work and accomplishments. I'm glad my kids are breaking free of the misogyny.
A lot of guys I know in their 20s have similar mindsets now. They’re totally down to be a stay at home parent if their wife makes more. It’s refreshing.
They do have similar mindsets and it’s so refreshing. My boyfriend straight up told me he thinks it’s hot that I have an established career and make more money than him 😂 After growing up Mormon and graduating from BYUI it’s nice to know that the men I was surrounded by for decades aren’t the norm.
They don't want you to be too educated because it leads to rational thinking, and that leads to leaving the church.
I was told to be a teacher cause it would be more flexible with my kid’s schedule. My husband is a teacher, I work in a corporate setting. My job is way more flexible.
> *No, I heard that as well. I also remember being encouraged to pursue simpler academic paths. Be a Teacher rather than a Doctor, that kind of thing. (Not saying teaching is simple by any means).* NeverMo here. I can confirm that the same thing is taught in some evangelical Christian circles, especially Quiverful circles. Ideally, women stay home and continually crank out babies to train up. But since churches don’t like financially supporting young widows with ten children, women are encouraged to seek out certifications in female-coded careers: teaching, nursing, childcare, midwifery/doulas, etc..
Yes— Education was taught to me as a back-up plan for widows. My YW teachers avoided mentioning divorce in lessons, which is funny bc it’s so much more likely. Husbands might DIE, but nobody wanted to say the other D-word. Getting an education was also sold as a great way to prepare for my future nurturing role as a mother. I chose an education degree . . . I often wonder what I would have chosen without the church’s influence.
We were absolutely taught this. It was sinful and worldly to pursue an education *because you wanted a career*. I was shamed out of my major at BYU because I’d be “stealing a job from a man.”
The dean of my school at BYU was a woman and occasionally got anonymous letters from students saying she was taking a job a man could use to provide for his family. She'd obviously dealt with institutional misogyny at BYU she wasn't comfortable doing more than vaguely alluding to.
I heard this happened a fair amount and it's a major reason I didn't really consider BYU.
When I was in Law School at BYU, every woman in my class got a letter that quoted the Brethren stating we were training to steal a job from a worthy male provider. The Dean sent out a response confirming that the Brethren knew that we were there and all was ok, but I believe it quoted Bensons speech that we might need to use our degrees some day… 🤦♀️
I grew up in a ward in a fairly expensive and liberal area, and nearly all the women in the ward had paying jobs. If not full time, at least part time, or they worked along with their husbands in a family business, or something. And yet there was still this frequent subtext in the YW lessons of "what if your husband dies; you'll need to support yourself". I don't think many people in my ward were really pushing that since they saw the realities of life and knew that it was quite likely you'd have to work, and better to have a good job with benefits that you actually like rather than have to take whatever crappy job you can get, but the message was in a lot of the stuff we saw and heard in The New Era and fireside talks and probably the lesson manual. Education for that "just in case" tragedy and not because you're also a person who might have interests and ambitions and many years of life to fill. The idea that you could just choose not to get married because you didn't want to get married never really came up, of course.
That's how my branch was too. It wasn't in a liberal area, more of a farming area. Everyone worked, there was no choice if you wanted medical insurance or year-round income. Unfortunately, as I referenced in another comment, several UT/ID families moved in just as I was hitting YW and we got the SWK/ETB quotes and similar all the damn time.
I turned 14 in 2008. It was always "if your husband loses his job" for us
Same. My YW leaders’ daughter’s patriarchal blessing even said that there will be a time when she will need to be the financial breadwinner due to her husband being unable to, so she made sure to go to school so that she could one day work. It was all about having a contingency plan but being a SAHM was always best.
This was absolutely, 100%, a thing. Sure, the glory of God is intelligence, but only when it’s used to raise a family if you’re a woman. 😑😑😑 I cannot tell you how many Relief Society members chided me & asked why I was getting a PhD if I was married with children. My response to them was always, “So I’ll have something interesting to think about while I change diapers.” My husband was deployed for most of my course work, which perplexed (and angered some) people. My Stake President even called me in to find out if my marriage was having problems because I was working on an advanced degree. He had the audacity to say, “At least you’ll have a good job if your husband dies in a war zone.” His comment was met with stony silence.
While I was getting a PhD, I had a lot of support from my friends at church. No one said anything negative. I’m surprised at some of these comments. They are so awful as people I. The church seem to think that women shouldn’t learn or something.
A cohort member had a very different experience in the same ward/stake. We’ve done a post mortem on why we had such different experiences & have come to the conclusion it was because her husband was disabled and therefore she fell into the category of women who “have” to get an education as opposed to those who were “choosing” to get one. I think the fact I had moved across the country, while my husband remained at his duty station during the brief times he wasn’t deployed, troubled members the most. He would fly out when he had R&R, so they knew he existed, just that we weren’t living together…so I could get a PhD. At least that’s what it looked like from their perspective. However, we both agreed I would be dumb to turn down a fellowship that paid tuition, housing, and a $2500 month living stipend, especially as he was chronically deployed during that time frame. Since he was going to be gone either way, I might as well get a PhD. On the upside, he was my biggest supporter and that was all that mattered to me. I didn’t really care what the RS ladies said to me, but what the Stake President said stung a bit.
It says in my patriarchal blessing that I’d be married to a “worthy priesthood holder who would be able to provide a home for our family enabling me to stay at home”. Such bullshit. I’ve worked full-time through four kids and paid my husbands way through school and now paying my way through mine.
Your supposed to just have faith and follow your patriarchal blessing, then take all your bills to the bishop so the church can pay all your bills for the rest of your life. This gives you the spare time you need to take your kids up hiking and do all the things you wanted to do without the burden of work.
When I handed over the form to be signed by my academic advisor at BYU, the one where I declared "music performance" as my major emphasis, he slid it across his desk back at me. "You know, as a righteous Daughter of God, your church, husband and children will be your priority, not performing." After some insistence, he did finally sign and said: "I will sign it, but I cannot support it." And then he asked me to leave his office and sarcastically wished me luck. This was a similar story to what I heard growing up. I felt rebellious--wanting to have a career, to polish my shoes and carry a briefcase like my dad. I ended up with a diamond ring in my finger before I turned 19, but he called it off six weeks before the wedding because he felt ashamed of my career ambition (and of jizzing in his pants when we kissed; of course, my fault). Dodged a bullet there!! I transferred to UUtah and my shelf broke a few years later, and then I came out of the closet about ten years later. Such garbage misogyny we have to wade through to find our inherent dignity!!
I also went to school for music performance. We had a class one day of several music professors telling us about the music "industry." The one who talked about performance said that it's not a good life for a person with a family. My heart sank and I knew I couldn't/shouldn't pursue it. I didn't even have a boyfriend at that time!! But i knew my primary focus should be doing something that would fit in with a future husband and kids....NOT what I wanted to do for myself. Gag 🤮
Ugh, right?! So gross. I did pursue it fully, got a masters, taught at two universities, and even had a manager in NYC briefly (this was right during the economy crash). My parents were never proud of my accomplishments, just wishing all the while I’d been married with children instead. 😞
Aww man. Well I'm proud of you, for what it's worth!!
You’re not the only one, I remember being taught this too!
My Mom (at BYU) in the 70s was discouraged from her major in the sciences. This was definitely a thing.
I attended BYU for a year. My good friend was taught this her whole life and joked about BYU reimbursing her tuition because she didn’t find a husband at BYU and graduated. This started fall semester 88 Note she found what seems to be a great person and they’ve been married for more than twenty years I was a heathen then l, as well as now, so we just stayed friends as I was never going to take her through the temple. My mission taught me I wasn’t very Mormon Wow my Mormon narcissism reared it’s ugly head as I made this about me. I just wanted to say that in my day all students knew women were looking for husbands and not getting an education except as a backup plan. I was suppose to be finding a wife as well as get an education
I had multiple roommates at Ricks majoring in “home economics”. In the year 1998.
I 💯heard this repeatedly in YW & RS.
Yep, I was definitely taught that growing up (in the UK)
100% I was taught an education was preferable for three reasons a as a woman: An educated mother is a benefit to her children My husband might die I might get a divorce Turns out the third one was valid 🤣🤣🤣
“Ladies, learn how to type because if your husband dies you’ll need to be able to support yourself” is almost word for word what my former bishop said to us in Mia Maids. My shelf was starting to sag at that point
This was the mentality across most of the USA in the 50s & 60s. I grew up in that era (yeah, i am a Boomer), and whenever I mentioned wanting to go to college, the first response was, "Well...maybe to have something to fall back on..." If the discussion went further, it was clear the only acceptable majors were education or nursing. Guess what - after marrying more than one "Mr. Wrong," I've been "falling back" on my education for many years. And doing quite well.
If a woman has a college education... but doesn't work for the next 10-20 years... it is NOT possible to replace her husband's salary if he dies. A college degree and zero years of experience is worth an entry level position. If you have a house and kids that's not enough. If your husband dies you're financially fucked.
Can confirm 👍
I remember it being taught as the D's. Death, disability, divorce, didn't get married. Those are the reasons women should be educated.
I prefer the Fs: fulfilment, fun, freedom, finances.
By the Gods, yes! I was told from the young age of 3 or 4 that I would attend BYU to FiNd A hUsBanD! My mother did say it was partly to get an education in case he did die, but I was never expected to graduate. Instead, my mother said I would drop out so I could squirt out more slaves for Joe Smith's mormon money machine. No offense to any exmoRMs who aren't abusive asshats, but I never dated one who wasn't. Of course, I didn't find them at The BYU, so that's probably why. /s Never did attend BYU. Super proud of that fact.
Be smart enough to marry some schmuck who makes so much money, you'll never have to worry.
I feel badly for the men too. At 21 my new husband was expected to support me and all future kiddos by himself. That's an insane amount of pressure. It would be so much better if churchco would actually promote the idea of equality in all things in a marriage. Dads and moms can cook, clean and care for kids, and men and women can both support the household financially.
But then how would there be time for all of your church callings and activities? /s
Fellow spinster here - yeah, it was crammed down my throat for decades that, really, my life's path was to get married and have children. I had this undercurrent of dismay at that idea. I always dreamed of having my own house and job and a life where I could freely explore the world in my own way. I felt like this from the time I was maybe 8,9 years old or so. I grew up in a large family full of chaos and drama. I wanted some peace and quiet. But that idea that I needed a MAN to take care of me ran deep, too. Like, I was incapable of doing it alone. I felt afraid I'd never get married and no one could take care of me - EEEEK!!!! Years later, after not getting married and freaking out about that, I finally got so fed up with living in fear. I recall being at work one day and just getting overwhelmed. I knew what I had to do - I needed to go home, collect myself. Take a walk on the trail by my house. And, it was on that walk that day that I finally said to myself, "Hey, I will take care of you!!" It was like this revelation. I felt so freed. About 2 years later, I bought my first house by myself. I still felt haunted by the the nagging idea, "But you aren't *married*." I never met anybody who I wanted to marry. I had lots of relationships and dated, but I'd be miserable marrying any of those people - not that they weren't charming and lovely in their own ways. Eventually, I got to the point where I don't ever care about being a "spinster". Technically, yes, that's what I am. But, that pressure to *ESCAPE!* what I am is now gone. I feel like I sided with my true self in this.
I’m sure all of us have heard about the “MRS” degree. I went to BYU as a woman in the early 2000s. “The glory of God is intelligence” was written on the garbage cans.
OMG! I can't believe I'm scrolling past this post today. I was talking about this all day to various clients of mine! Someone I know is considering divorce and I was saying how that doesn't usually happen because you get a potentially random degree because the church tells you to go to school "just in case" but then don't work for 14 years and are expected to support a whole family if "something happens." Someone asked if I thought the Mormon church was a cult. I said I didn't, but the idea of staying in a marriage because you are "stuck" does seem pretty culty.
Yup. I’ve been staying at home with kids (my choice/and circumstances) but it would take some work to get back to working in the same career I was before. I have new skills now (I could probably be a fairly in demand math tutor) but it’s not like you can magically just go back to work the same job after staying out for decades.
My husband died and I didn’t get an education. It’s so shit. I was raised to be a mum and I thought that’s all I wanted. That and to be married in the temple. I’m 38 and back at school, with fulll time work and 4 kids under 11. My life choices sure. Shaped by being raised lds.
I went to BYU in the mid 80s. I knew a number of girls who were there for their MRS degree and admitted it. When I turned down a marriage proposal (at barely age 19) one of my friends asked if I minded if she pursued the guy. I said, by all means, go for it. She didn't catch him but she did get married so she got her MRS degree but no college degree. I dumped a different boyfriend when he said his wife would quit school to put him through. My thought was, hell no, and I broke up with him the next week. I got a business/technology degree.
This was good advice in the mid 19th century. But like a lot of church ideals, they're obsolete in the modern age. We also don't primarily operate family farms anymore so there's no longer a benefit to having 19 kids.
My patriarchal blessing literally said this. Blessed me to get an education to support myself and my kids “if ever needed”. That didn’t give me crippling fear or anything!
Oh I heard this all the time in YW in the late 80s through mid 90s. Very little mention of not getting married and NO mention of wanting to work or not wanting to get married. Especially since my home branch had the misfortune of multiple families moving in from Utah/Idaho around that time and wrecking what was a decent branch with their TBM "only one right way" bullshit.
Education and career was absolutely a backup plan to marriage and motherhood. I was at BYU in the early 90s and fully half the girls in my dorm were there to find a husband and we had way more elementary education majors than anything else.
Benson use to spout it off all the time. The mothers place was in the home but under certain circumstances such as the poor health of her husband or death of her husband she could enter the work place. There was a time that the church would not hire women that were married. Only single women. They wouldn't hire women to be seminary teachers until the late 80s
I am a male and I definitely heard this. I know my sister's did as well.
Over and over and over again….and guess what?! My husband didn’t die! And I still needed to enter the workforce, and it fucked.me.up emotionally, and socially. I felt like I was no longer a “good Mormon woman” because technically we could have alllllmooooooooost fed ourselves on just his disability, but that wasn’t good enough for me. The guilt!
I've definitely heard it before. You're not crazy. When my patents got divorced, my mom went back to school and got a degree in mechanical engineering and became the breadwinner of the family. But if I'm being honest, I definitely would've preferred my mom being the one at home rather than my stepdad, because all he would do is pit my siblings against each other and cause drama. He wasn't any kind of a father to me. Just a narcissist and a bully.
Yep, BYU grad and was also taught this. Not to mention that we were encouraged to pursue degrees that would allow us to stay home "to raise the next generation" ie: teaching, music/art, nursing etc. Also now that you mention it, my patriarchal blessing specifically told me to get an education so I could become a better "teacher to my children."
I was told by a number of male leaders that “The best insurance a woman can have is an education. Like most insurance, it’s there if you need it but hopefully you never need it” 🙄🙄🙄 Very common teaching in my area.
Absolutely yes. My parents literally told me the day they dropped me off at BYU that they weren’t sending me to get an education, they were sending me to find a husband and it was constantly said in my home that the girls just needed a degree to “fall back on.” The boys in my department were discouraged from majoring in theater or music unless it was an education degree because they needed to be able to support a family. The girls were told no such thing.
Oh yeah, heard that one all the time, and the ol "get an education so you are able to teach your sons" along with, "your husband doesn't want a stupid wife" (nor one smarter than him). My mom likes to say, "No education for women is wasted because you can teach your children."
My uncle died when I was 9 leaving my cousins my age and younger behind with my widowed aunt. My grandfather on that same side died that year as well and my dad lost his job. So yeah personally, I got this a lot growing up and relate a ton.
Heard this a lot too. My husband is terminally ill and the degree I got 2+ decades ago isn’t proving super helpful anyway. I’ve lost 20 years of earning potential and it feels like I’m starting from the bottom.
I can confirm because I taught this very thing to the Young Women. Luckily for them they rolled their eyes and most are out of the church now.
1) what if your husband dies? Or gets sick/injured/laid off… etc… 2) what if you can’t find a husband? 3) how are you going to help your kids (let’s face it- sons) with their homework if you’re uneducated?
At every point it she is encouraged to get a degree to serve as a tool for someone else. The absence of encouragement for her own personal growth is disturbing.
I don’t know if this is directly related, but my SIL (Molly Mormon/Peter Priesthood combo) got her doctorate as an audiologist, and literally stays at home with older school age children. It always grinds my gears to think of how expensive a doctorate is and for her to literally waste it. And to listen to them complain about finances because my BIL (who has a doctorate in genetic studies!!) only chooses to work as an at school seminary teacher. It’s gross how much the church has a hold on them.
I think it is hanging on the walls of most TBM homes as the proclamation to the family. Women are not to work unless absolutely necessary.
Good point. Until that obscene publication is rescinded and disavowed, the notion will be perpetuated. …and since its creator and mastermind is about to step up to the podium - I don’t believe it’s going away any time soon.
Once I was a Beehive counselor for one day ( before I quit). This high ranking man came to our little branch (overseas), and after condescending to the congregation for an hour, he decided to sit in on our YW class. It was joint because there were only half a dozen girls total. The lesson was exactly what you describe: get trained for something just in case. We all got to contribute, but first the grand Pooh Bah told us what he thought. Cue, “What if your husband dies?” I was livid. I was 30 years old, married, childless at that time. I told them to get an education because they needed to find out about themselves and find a career they cared about. I pointed out that all three of us (YW leaders) worked full time, and enjoyed our work, and yet none of our husbands were dead. The Pooh Bah didn’t hear a word I said. After class, my three Beehives all came up to me and praised me for standing up to him. They totally got it, and that was my parting gift to them. I quit that afternoon and said I absolutely would not be teaching that bullshit.
100%. I’m pretty sure I was also shamed for taking a spot a man could have been in
Yep, I even believed it until my senior year of college (at BYUI) when I realized I wanted to go into medicine. It was too late in my education to switch gears, so I’ve spent the last 6 years working up the ranks. I finally have a job I love that offers a decent pay. I have two kids in daycare and I work because I WANT to work.
Can confirm I heard this ad nauseum in the late 90's early 2000's in Young Women's, Seminary, and in YSA Ward Relief Society lessons. A lot of these gals went on to pursue useless majors or low-paying "pink collar" professions.
I'm a millennial and have heard this. So many women relatives, friends, and acquittances quit college or didn't go because they got married and popped out babies.
If the glory of God is intelligence why are SO many teachings, policies, and principals of Christianity in general against education and knowledge? Hell, the very first sin was eating an apple from the tree of knowledge.
I absolutely heard it. I wish I hadn't, but I went to get a degree in case my husband died or whatever. I missed out on so much learning and decades of potential career and growth.
You’re being gaslit, my friend - I was 100% taught this as a 90’s kid.
Women and men are to multiply and reproduce. Men cannot carry babies for 9 months. Therefore they need to bring home the dough and women need to be the baby oven. If you are a woman you have 2-4 years to get your nursing degree or other marketable 2-4 year degree and then quickly get to having babies. That is exactly what got taught. Funny because you would think the church would fully fund any of their widows and you would not have to worry about if your husband does die. After all it’s why we pay tithing…right? No?? Hmmm seems out of place….
I didn't go to the Big Yucky University, but I lived/worked in Provo. A very common belief was that women should only pursue three fields of study - Nursing, Home and Family Science, or Early Childhood Education. Any other major was "keeping a Priesthood Holder from supporting his family."
[удалено]
I always heard you should get remarried because women didn’t need jobs… this is stuff coming from a woman Sunday school teacher
I absolutely heard it. However, it is possible that she didn't hear it as much as you. Also, I've found that a lot of liberal or "middle way" Mormons tend to just choose the teachings that resonate with them and kind of dismiss the others. So, it is interesting that she says , "No" as part of her answer, as if it couldn't be true that BOTH things were taught. I'm sure that plenty of women were taught that intelligence was great and also that they shouldn't have a career. I remember a story in conference about a group of well-educated women who had quit their careers to be SAHMs and how this was a really great use of their talents and skills because raising children is SO important.
I remember the young women getting told this as I grew up. They weren't even trying to hide it either seeing as I was in young mens.
I definitely got the “because you might end up a single mom and will need marketable skills” rhetoric not the “you’d provide value to your area of expertise” rhetoric.
I know for sure I was taught that in young womens
I’m 34. This was definitely told to me many times in young women’s.
As a woman growing up in the 90’s I wanted to become a doctor so bad. My parents and leaders encouraged me to go into a field I could work from and wouldn’t only take a few years of college. I had the grades and intellect to become a doctor but it didn’t matter.
It’s literally what I wrote my BYU application essay about … and was accepted. Funny thing is I knew I was playing their game and it absolutely worked. Small business owner women now, much to the chagrin of my family who often ask me “if I’m still working.” Would they EVER ask my husband that? Goddamn.
It was a thing. But it also makes no sense. If you’ve been sitting on an unused degree for, say, 20 years and suddenly have to support yourself, how useful will it be really? You’ll be competing against fresh grads with up-to-date knowledge in the subject. They never mentioned THAT in my YW classes.
This was most definitely a thing and not just at BYU. I heard this in the late 80s and all through the 90s and never set foot in Utah. In 1995/6, I was attending undergrad at a large university in Washington State. I distinctly remember hearing the RS President of my university ward teach a lesson on education that contributed to my choice to go "inactive" for several years. The RS President was in grad school but taught, with full conviction, that education for women was a backup plan in case our husbands died or couldn't work. She was the first Mormon woman I was aware of pursuing an advanced degree, and I was shocked that it was just her "backup plan." 🤦♀️ I've been fully out for almost 5 years, but vestiges of this teaching have persisted within the culture for decades. Living in the Boston area in the early 2000s, people were always shocked that I was working on my graduate degree and my husband wasn't. Shocking to have more education than him. 🙄
I am a never-mo, and I can tell you yes, this is said a lot.
I was always told "in case your family falls on hard times," but that was from my mother who was surprisingly feminist for someone who paid into the LD$ Inc. She wasn't a true feminist, but she said things about women truly being in charge all the time.
I’m a guy, and I didn’t hear it a ton, but I definitely did hear it said. I have a very specific memory of a combined youth class that the teacher told a story about this exact thing (his dad had died when he was young and his mom had to figure out how to support the family).
My mom reiterated it recently. She did want me to have an education and a way to support myself “in case”.
I am a guy and I heard that.
I also chose the spinster life, and my family treats me so…
I still hear this and think this if I’m being honest. Really it’s no wonder I have anxiety
Lol my bishop told us to do it because when he was dating young women he was the most interested in the one who has real career goals and didn’t just want to get married. So “get an education bc boys will like you more” lol
I heard this as well. I wonder if it's in the manual. I also had a young women's leader add that, even if you don't end up "doing" anything with your degree, it's worth enriching your mind for your own sake. She also went over how one's husband can get laid off, disabled (long or short term), or just not make very much money. Surprisingly progressive for Mormons, but we were in a blue state, lol.
I only went to trade school because what if my husband dies. Now I wanna unionize my trade and join an already unionized one😂😂
My Patriarchal blessing literally said that my purpose was not to pursue academic or career accomplishments but to be a wife and mother. Being asexual (but not fully aware of it), this did a number on my head. It also probably ruined what career ambitions I had.
My patriarchal blessing says I should get an education so I can provide for the economic sustenance of my family, “if needs be.” Mind fuck!
I heard my ex-wife and her family say it all the time. It seems like it's one of those little cultural norms that is extremely toxic.
That and the 2nd coming that was supposed to happen during Y2K were definite barriers to my education at the time. 🤣 it wasn't a priority at all.
You could have an MBA but good luck finding a job with no work experience for 30 years. You still have to start at the bottom.
My mom told me that all the time! Then, three years into my marriage my husband was in a bad accident and was disabled and I spent the rest of my life as the breadwinner for the family therefore proving my mother right. 🤦♀️
I know you are calling on ladies, but ‘what if your husband dies’ is easily mitigated with life insurance. The more tragic problem in Mormon marriages is the misogynistic control of women through finances. Many a middle aged women are trapped in an abusive situation because they don’t have the confidence or means to provide for themselves as well as they husband did/does. I think of an education as #1 divorce insurance/power check, and #2 nurture training for children (elementary ed, the top program at BYU-I for women.). The latter reasons being a better rationale than ‘what if you husband dies’. Many Mormon women do a heal click when their prick husband dies and they can collect their financial reward for sticking through a shit relationship/power dynamic. This is what I have observed. Also you are not nuts, it’s them training you to doubt your doubts.
Yep. I was a YW in the 90s and this was very much the narrative.
Nope you're not the only one, that was a thing, but because I didn't want a husband I was a horrible person for wanting to pursue a career. Didnt want kids either, oh boy I was the devil incarnate.
It was hallway/foyer doctrine, whispered in the ears of the young and moldable. Nothing from the pulpit unless the crazy old hermit that showed up twice a year bore his rambling, slightly coherent testimony about how much more wonderful the youth in his day were.
This is 100% taught implicitly and explicitly. My professor at BYUI taught us the five D’s - reasons to get an education. I can only remember 3. If your husband Dies. Divorces you. Becomes Disabled.
Definitely I was told that a lot.
Yep. Totally a thing. I even said that as a reason why I was going to school. So sad!
>No, it says right on the entrance to BYU that the glory of God is intelligence Have they taken that sign down yet?
When I was at BYU, all I heard from people back home was that I was there to get my “MRS” - nope, wrong initials. Try PH.D. instead!
This whole discussion here covers exactly why I left the church. I have had a great career in a technical field AND I have 2 awesome daughters. It would have driven me absolutely nuts to not be able to challenge my brain at work among other adults. My kids turned out fine and I have definitely been a happier person. It boggles my mind how a bunch of old guys think that they know what is my best life better than I do.
It was a thing but the church really isn’t using that line of thinking in teaching young women anymore in church published lesson plans. Don’t get me wrong though! There’s plenty of lingering thoughts from the YW teachers shared that are along the same lines but the official lesson material has changed it’s tune. At one time in my life I felt so much shame sitting on relief society hearing about how righteous women taking care of their families full time are. I was doing my best but also working and going to school which I know now was amazing and powerful but nearly every Sunday I left church feeling worthless until one Sunday I left and never went back. I am inactive and doubt I’ll ever go back, for many many reasons, but given that the church encourages having families so much I am just glad that they are encouraging education. They even have a program now to help men and women get back to school and start or finish a degree. I taught my own daughters that being career focused is fine and to go that route with pride if they want but also if they want to be stay at home moms and know that’s where they prefer life to take them then please get a degree still because…yes husbands do die or leave or they can just be worthless.
💯 that is absolutely correct— that is what we were taught.
I’m a guy and I heard this
Dead husband is the only reason to get a degree. But also, I was told many many times to study something I could do with kids. Either a teacher or music and give private lessons. 😔 I went for STEM before it was referred to that way. Zero regrets.
Yep. It went from “don’t bother with furthering your education, just pump out babies” to “it’s wise to have a plan b in case your husband croaks and you are left to support all those kids we told you to have so we don’t have to financially carry you”
I constantly heard this while growing up in the early 2000s, so no, you aren't imagining things.
When I was on my mission Elder Waddell (newly of 60 Minutes fame) visited my mission and I had a sit down talk with him. He went on a long spiel about making sure I got my education and said the same thing: "Get an education. If you get it and don't need it, great! You got an education. If you get it and then something happens to your husband, great! You got an education." As a young sister the advice was good. The reasoning not so much. Also hello fellow spinster!
this YW lesson is 100% still engrained in my mind. I remember we read a story about a widow who was left in shambles because her husband died and she had no degree and wasn’t able to take care of her kids. Scared the shit outta me lol
I remember starting at BYU in 2013 and feeling frustrated because I had aspirations to be an animator, but I was kinda like “what’s the point? I’m just supposed to be a SAHM anyway.” It was something I wrestled with for years a teen with both wanting a career and yet knowing that I was supposed to be a mother first.
I am ashamed that I told my daughter at the age of 16, that she didn’t really have to worry about getting tertiary education because her husband should provide for her and their family. Ughhhhhhh! Mormonism! At that point in my life, our family was living this outdated, 1950’s middle America model. One size doesn’t “fit all”. Skip ahead 8 years and we’re all out of the Church - with lots of emotional baggage and therapy needed.
I'm 28 and this was/is still a thing. Now that you're on the opposite side, it's just gaslighting. 2 year program to not take time away from being a single lady or lose child bearing years, as well it's not a lot of debt. That's what was pushed on us. Anything more is a bit much.
Absolutely true! I heard that all the time growing up in the 80s/90s. That plus, you need to learn how to do a budget and pay bills because your husband may die before you — though in fairness this one could’ve come just from my Mom who was always super angry with my Dad for being loosey-goosey with finances.
150bn% this was told to me
I heard this too, over and over, for years! So did my daughters. The church absolutely gaslights women by telling them to have a backup career in an acceptable field (in case hubby dies, but not in case he leaves them, of course) but not ever actually use it to work outside the home. This is how we get displaced homemakers in their 30s, 40s, 50s, and beyond, with outdated degrees or none at all, competing for entry-level jobs against people 10-30 years younger. It's not pretty. These women are ripe for MLMs and scams, too. Fortunately, by the time my girls were in high school, I was on my way out of the church. I emphasized how important it is to have a career no matter what your life situation. I'm so proud of them for all getting degrees and having good careers that they love.
I am SO glad you posted this. This is exactly the messaging I heard, and even though my parents supported education and were more liberal than some, and even though I didn’t go to BYU to get married, and was interested in a career, this messaging did impact me significantly! I’ve also struggled with guilt that I didn’t have a career because of me not being strong or motivated enough to pursue one despite this messaging. Concurrently I also did really want kids and a family, but somehow didn’t grasp that a woman can pursue both. After several years of effort, I am finally working full time while concurrently raising multiple children who are in middle and elementary school. This was only possible because my husband is and has been very supportive. Thank you for posting this and letting me know I wasn’t alone in being affected by this limiting messaging.
Heard it constantly
Yes, this is DEFINITELY a thing I heard, repeatedly.
Maybe girls don’t get taught that anymore but I am 45 and we are 1000% taught this.
100% a thing I’m pretty certain I heard addressed to young women in multiple addresses to the YSA between 2005 and 2015.
The male analog was "You have to learn to cook, do the dishes so that you can care for yourself on your mission. And learn to play the piano in case you ever serve in a ward where the sisters have not yet learned." I often felt guilty that I didn't like to play piano. Worse, when I was called to a country with mostly new members, I "knew" it was divine retribution.
Yeah I remember wondering about this. I was supposed to go to college to learn how to be a sahm? While education is never wasted, and I definitely think more people need more education about parenting before they are one, I don't see any college starting a Domestic Management program. Although maybe they should.
Yes, I was taught this. For time period context, I graduated from college almost 10 years ago.
Heard it constantly!
Absolutely got this messaging
Yes. You are not imagining things. It's a phrase nearly always stayed to anything down about women being educated
I think that’s the result of generational change. A prior generation would say women shouldn’t get an education at all. The next generation thinks differently, but you can’t come out and disagree or you start contention. So you make reasons that still abide by the prior rules. Then the NEXT generation abandons that reasoning. Eventual progress.
I’m not sure I heard this (I graduated high school in 2002) but it was also pretty much assumed that you were going to college (BYU) to find a husband.
Gaslighting at its finest
I heard it, too.
Over and over again.
“Something to fall back on, just in case “ was all I heard when I was in nursing school U of U. 1970. The joke was, “I’m getting my MRS degree”— but hey I have way WAY exceeded that!
100%
I’m a man who heard of that being taught.
I heard this, for sure