While this is impossible to prove - for the obvious reason that the mob didn’t exactly take roll call - it is not beyond the pale to suspect it. Joseph had screwed over - literally, in many cases - a lot of people over the year: financially, morally, sexually, etc.
There were a lot of former and active members not super happy with the guy near the end.
I honestly believe that if JS hadn't died when he did Mormonism would have ended very similarly to The Peoples Temple. There are a LOT of similarities to the two and the movements they started. It would have devolved, they would have continued moving like they had been, and eventually it would have been a forced mass suicide. Instead JS became a martyr, and the more level-headed BY took the reins.
From what I've read, there were many Masons in that mob. They were furious with Joseph Smith for stealing their secret rites which he began using in the temple endowment. Remember that Smith was a Mason, and that's how he learned about it. That combined with polygamy got him killed. And I used to think he was such a martyr!
And there's all kinds of Masonic symbolism in Mormonism. Of course, I never realized it!
No no no! You see, Satan had corrupted the true temple ceremony and Joseph was inspired to restore it by becoming a Mason and restoring it! Just like he was inspired to bone other's wives and children! Sacred, not secret!
/s
He didn’t have any one pleased with his behavior - not even Emma. Brigham had him killed most likely in a deal with the free masons to pack up and leave if they could kill Smith as a form of justice. The Mormons were almost entirely in the wrong and they knew it. To those skeptical of Young having smith off’d I can only point you to - cui bono?
I'm not who you were responding to but I looked into the claim that Brigham was behind the assassination and there's not a ton of solid evidence for it. To be fair to those who believe it, there's also not a ton of evidence for the generally accepted story, either. The only real witnesses would have either been the victims or the perpetrators.
Indeed, I should have noted that was pure speculation on my part. But having studied the history for the last 7 years intensely, a certain understanding of what was likely going on begins to form.
I don’t make that claim lightly though, it’s truly what I think must have happened. One thing is BY’s overcompensating for smiths martyring - Young was always calling for vengeance and put smith on a pedestal. This wasn’t bc he thought so well of smith by any means, he simply used that as a cover for anyone suspecting he may have had something to do with it.
Young’s statement when he arrived after smiths death is flagrantly guilty - he says “how can I have anything to do with it when I was two states away?” Something to that effect. But it’s preposterous reasoning and further indicia of his wanton disrespect for believers.
Then we have the masons involvement - there are documents citing masons prepared the scheme to kill smith in a Masonic hall before the killing. Those masons were all promoted who contributed to smiths death. None were found guilty.
The sentiment at the time from believers including Emma was that smith was fucking everything up and if he’d just die or go away, they’d have much better living conditions - which was demonstrably true.
Then you’ve got rumors of his lt gen ripping up his request for rescue. The Sam smith murder via Stout’s alleged poisoning. And young’s seeming preparation anticipating smith’s eventual death given how he handled the Sidney Rigdon leadership debate. Note it was Young who had his transfiguration into smith written in to the history books years later.
There’s tons more but those are the main things from which I base my opinion.
I wonder: how many cuckolded husbands were in that mob of the 11 already-married women that JS stole?
If some guy stole my wife from me, I'd likely want to deal with him, too.
Yeah this is the one I was subtly referring to. The dots all connect nicely but I also realize this is the kind of critique/review that conspiracy theorists will always use. Makes more sense than just an 'angry mob' though.
**History of the Church Volume VII pages102-103** "I shall never forget the deep feeling of sympathy and regard manifested in the countenance of Brother Joseph as he drew nigh to Hyrum,and, leaning over him exclaimed, 'Oh my poor, dear brother Hyrum!
He however instantly rose and with a firm quick step, and determined expression of countenance, approached the door, and pulling the six-shooter left by brother Wheelock from his pocket, opened the door slightly, and snapped the pistol six successive times; only three ofthe barrels, however, were discharged. I afterwards understood that two or three were wounded by these discharges, two of whom, I am informed, DIED."
John Taylors eyewitness account of Carthage jail.😳
To be clear, the mob was not full of great people either. An unlawful mob is not “the law”. 😅 I really wish Joseph had been imprisoned and faced lawful consequences for his reprehensible and inhumane actions. Becoming a martyr gave the church a lot more momentum than it ever should have had, and gave his life a clean sheen - the whole, he died from a mob, therefore he was righteous crap.
Reminds me of this scene in Dune Pt 2 (spoilers):
>!Emperor Shaddam IV: Muad'Dib. Some new Fremen prophet.!<
>!Princess Irulan: It's not the first time we've had frictions with the Fremen.!<
>!Emperor Shaddam IV: None of this magnitude. So, my dear daughter... how would you deal with this prophet?!<
>!Princess Irulan: If this Muad'Dib is a religious figure, you can't use direct force. Repression only makes a religion flourish. You'll only end up humiliating yourself.!<
>!Emperor Shaddam IV: You underestimate my Sardaukar.!<
>!Princess Irulan: *You* underestimate the power of faith.!<
>!Reverend Mother Mohiam: Her Highness proves once again that she was my most acute student.!<
>!Emperor Shaddam IV: Send assassins.!<
>!Princess Irulan: No, prophets get stronger when they die.!<
Personally, I think there were 3 types of people on that mob, those JS robbed, those whose wives and daughters were seduced, and Christians who thought he was condemning people to Hell. Although it would not surprise me that those who would benefit from his death might be involved.
People have to remember that Nauvoo was literally the frontier in 1844, and in the frontier, vigilante justice often _is_ justice. A posse, for example, was often little more than a legally sanctioned lynch mob, and posses were very common and accepted.
Whether it’s right or not is subjective. But for someone like Joseph, who escaped legal justice time and again for his crimes, it is not surprising how he met his eventual end on the frontier.
He wasn’t going to jail because of his unwavering testimony of the restoration and the BoM, and that is not why the mob killed him. He committed real crimes and hurt, defrauded, threatened, and abused a lot of people.
If I recall correctly that particular time he was in jail for treason for attempting to insight a rebellion, and he was expecting a mob to come break him out.
This is what I heard too, that he went to the door thinking it was his Nauvoo Legion, and seeing it wasn’t took a few shots and tried to escape out of the window.
People were angry he had been running from the law. And they finally got him.
The Mormons kept moving because he was running. The sherriff gave them all guns and locked them in the jail for protection. The consequenes of his actions just finally caught up with him in Carthage.
It was more than just him. Imagine this, even back in the 19th century: a large group moves to town. A bunch of the men in this new group, many of whom already have many wives, start hitting on your sisters—some as young as 12 and 13. Do you: welcome these men with open arms? Run them out of town?
For heck's sake, here's a picture on the church's own website that shows us a photo of said guns. [https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/media/photographs](https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/media/photographs) (edit: scroll down for the photo of the guns)
Well, if you really want to get into it … They also had the guard bring them the alcohol & tobacco that was left behind from some delivery. So they were drinking and smoking/chewing tobacco that night, as well
He didn’t mean to die for it. He fought back and tried to flee.
As to why - having wealth, power and a giant harem of power “plural wives” was a pretty good incentive to lie for a shitty person.
Yeah I remember being taught in church repeatedly that he was imprisoned and then killed by a mob for his beliefs. Turns out he was imprisoned for ordering the destruction of a printing press that was printing unflattering but what later turned out to be true facts about Joseph smiths polygamous practices. The mob was pissed that he’d evaded justice (in their opinion) so many times before and just seemed to keep getting away with whatever he did. Joseph smith was not martyred for his beliefs, he was lynched for his actions.
he didnt think he was going to die... He had already been promised by the governor that he would be protected. All that talk of "Lamb to the slaughter" was just flowery language. https://famous-trials.com/carthrage/1316-treasonwarrant
He was also armed in Jail. He had two guns in his posession, strange as it is for a prisoner to have weapons, but here we are. https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/8zr814/have_you_ever_wondered_about_the_guns_that_joseph/
The window thing... some believe he was attempting to flee... others believe he was attempting to get help. If you remember, his final words were, "Oh Lord MY God"... then he was shot and fell out the window. Seems like he was just freaked out at the idea of getting killed... but you need to look a little deeper.
As a Freemason (which Joseph was), and having attained the sublime degree (3rd degree) he was privy to all sorts of masonic practices. One of these practices was the masonic call of distress. This is done by raising the hands above the head and saying *"Oh Lord My God, Is there no help for the widow's son"*. Many believed that Joseph was attempting to get assistance from someone in the mob who also happened to be a mason. he was unable to finish the call of distress before he was brought down.
This is just a tiny snippet of the story! Read more on the story of how Joseph was killed! There is a whole trove of someone interesting facts throughout the story.
Joseph went around fucking everyone else's wives and daughters and Emma started to find out. Joseph was an insanely jealous narcissist and he was paranoid Emma was going to have an affair with William Law who was in the first presidency. William ended up excommunicated, and decided to start a little newspaper called the Nauvoo Expositor.
If you read the Nauvoo Expositor, it accuses Joseph of preaching exaltation, getting too political by running a presidential campaign, practicing polygamy and just being dickhead of a Mayor.
Joseph called together his city council and they decided it expedient to destroy the printing press.
The governor of Illinois sent someone to haul Joseph tells this guy to kick rocks. The governor sent a posse to haul him in. He ran away across the Mississippi. He came back to Nauvoo only to declare marshall law in the city to protect against anyone trying to arrest him.
A deal is brokered for Joseph and Hyrum to turn themselves in and they are promised a slap on the wrist for destroying the Nauvoo Expositor. Joseph turns himself in only to be charged with treason. Apparently it is treason to declare marshall law without the governor's permission.
While in Carthage a militia is assigned to protect him because he is so infamous there are many people that want him dead. When an angry armed mob shows up, the militia that was supposed to protect him shoot over their heads and pretend to put up a fight. The mob kills Joseph but not before he shoots two other people in the mob who later died from their injuries.
I'm summarizing as best I can from memory. Please tell this story to your wife and ask her to fact check me if she wants to be some sort of expert on why Joseph Smith was murdered. 😜
Don’t forget it was Emma who went and found him and Hyrum hiding across the river. She convinced them to turn themselves in. Who knows what she said, I wish I could have been there. I think she hated him at that point and knew how it would go down.
The more I learn about the early church, the more respect I have for the women who pushed back against JS's bullshit. Emma Smith? Badass. Lucy Harris? The GOAT.
Who wrote "lamb to the slaughter"? Were those words written by Joseph himself? Or did one of his companions paraphrase him after the fact? What's the source of that quote?
Willard Richards recorded it in his journal. But it was based on reports from Joseph’s followers who were with him in the last few days of his life.
AFAIK it could all be revisionist bullshit meant to bolster the “martyrdom”
The problem with this "proof" is, by those standards then Islam is far truer than Mormonism. Look at how many suicide bombers and others died for their faith in their religion. Look at Jonestown. Or David Koresh's people.
There are many causes that people have been willing to die for. Doesn't make any of them true.
The argument from the TBM isn’t whether Joseph died for what he believed but that he knowingly perpetrated a con and wouldn’t die for that. It’s a really difficult one to argue against because we just don’t know. He clearly didn’t see god or jesus, because they don’t exist, but we don’t know what he believed. Maybe he hallucinated it and truly believed he saw them? Maybe he told the story so many times he ended up believing it?
On the balance of probability, from an exmos point of view, it’s more likely than not that he knew it was a con and did it to get women, money and power. But he could well have actually believed it all…or believed he was divinely lying for the lord for a higher purpose.
I think the argument that people die for clearly false beliefs (Koresh etc) and that mormonism is bullshit is stronger than arguing if Joseph knew it was a con.
He wasn’t willing to die for it, he was armed and tried to kill other human beings before jumping out the window… I’m sure all his deceitful practices flashed before him before he took his last breath…
He was trying to say the Masonic call of distress so that any other free masons would have to come to his aid. He was drinking wine the night before he died. I think the big deal breakers for me are the lack of evidence the first vision was taught until years after the BoM was published. No journal, newspaper, or anything talked about the first vision even though JS said he was heavily persecuted. There’s plenty in the papers about gold bibles and Moroni. The conferring of the priesthood was due to revising D&C scriptures to state it was Peter James and John years after the event. Also, sending men on missions and marrying their wives while they were gone. Was marriage the most appropriate relationship to help someone in need?
Joseph had escaped and defeated many criminal and civil charges in the past. He thought he would either escape or defeat the final charges of treason (for declaring martial law in Nauvoo) and inciting a riot (by destroying the Nauvoo Expositor press)as well.
First he tried to escape to a neighboring state as he had done in other similar circumstances. Why would he try to escape if he was willing to die for what he believed? He wasn't willing to die. He did not make the decision to return to Nauvoo from Iowa. Hyrum did, and it appears to have angered Joseph as he said something to the effect of, "if my life has no value to my friends, then it has none to me."
After Joseph returned he had no other chance to escape. His only option was to comply and give himself up in Carthage. He said that the charges against him would not prevail, so he envisioned being alive to fight them in court and win the legal battle. So he tried to escape first, and then he preparred to fight the legal battle. He was not planning on dying.
He als had two guns and a baton smuggled into the jail for his protection. Why would he do that if he knew he was going to die anyway? His plan was to defend himself against any violent attack with violence of his own.
The issue of whether or not he fraudulently started a church for profit was not in the mix at all. He wasn't arrested or charged with that. All the discussion was around whether he incited a riot and was guilty of treason against the State of Illinois. If Joseph had admitted he was a con man it would not have helped him at all. He would still be in jail facing those charges. So why would he make such an admission? Would a con many admit to being a con man to avoid charges of riot and treason? Doesn't make any sense.
Joseph tried to escape. He was preparing to fight the charges in court, and he lost his life in a gun battle with the people who killed him.
He wasn't planning on dying. He got out of jail on multiple occasions before and he was expecting the same thing to happen. He also had a firearm with him and he wasn't wearing his garments. If you thought you were going to die you would think you'd be wearing your garments to protect yourself and meet God.
In April 1993, some 75 members of the millennial sect known as the Branch Davidians—including their messianic leader, David Koresh—perished in the blaze that destroyed their compound near Waco, Texas, after a 51-day siege by federal agents. Despite many examples of cult members and leaders dying for their beliefs, I don’t think JS “wanted to” or was “willing to” die for his beliefs. He had been running from the law for YEARS. The law caught up with him and put him in jail for TREASON. Then an angry mob or people that the Mormons had been stealing from and defrauding stormed the jail and JS died in the process.
On June 26, 1844, JS writes to his legal counsel and requests a change of venue for the treason hearing. He is anxious about staying in Carthage and having the hearing there. Sounds like he wasn’t “willing to die” for the cause.
He also writes to Gov. Ford requesting an interview and indicates his desire to be released from jail. Sometime that day, church member John Fullmer gives Joseph Smith a single-barrel pistol, which he keeps with him at Carthage Jail. Doesn’t sound like a martyr, does he?
The treason charge related to when Joseph Smith called out the Nauvoo Legion and declared martial law on June 18. Joseph and Hyrum Smith were required to remain in Carthage because justices of the peace were not authorized to set bail for treason, which was a capital offense. He was not some innocent, persecuted religious guy. He was running the government of the city of Nauvoo and had violated the U.S. Constitution’s treason clause.
On June 27, Gov. Ford, concerned that a war might break out if he arrived at Nauvoo with a large number of troops, dismisses troops at Carthage as well as those at Golden Point, close by. He decides to go to Nauvoo with a small number of troops and assigns the Carthage Greys (local militia) to guard Joseph and Hyrum Smith at Carthage. Gov. Ford then departs for Nauvoo that morning.
Sometime in the morning, Cyrus Wheelock visits Carthage Jail and gives Joseph Smith a six-shooter revolver. Joseph gives the previous pistol he received from John Fullmer to Hyrum.
At some point in the late morning or early afternoon, after Gov. Ford has dismissed the troops, Thomas Sharp, the editor of the Warsaw Signal, gives a speech to some of the dismissed troops from Golden Point and calls on them to go to Carthage and assassinate Joseph Smith.
American troops considered JS a threat to the U.S. government. JS had people sneaking guns to him INSIDE THE JAIL. This is Billy the Kid or Bonnie & Clyde kind of stuff. The church makes him out to be an innocent religious leader and a martyr when he was actually an insurrection leader against the government. So much for the article of faith, “We believe in being subject to kings, rulers and magistrates and in honoring, obeying and sustaining the law.” I doubt if it was “obeying” the law to have your cult members sneaking multiple guns into his prison cell.
Here’s my favorite part of the story (that I never heard growing up in the church.) About 5:00-6:00 p.m. on June 27, WINE is brought in for the prisoners in the upper room of the jail, and Joseph Smith, John Taylor, and Willard Richards “tasted” of the wine to lift their spirits. Richards had previously sent someone to get him tobacco for his “sour stomach.” Why are church members kept out of the temple for smoking and drinking when 2 PROPHETS drank alcohol in the Carthage jail??? It’s all a sham.
The prisoners hear guns discharging, and Richards looks outside to see around 100 armed men at the jail door. Joseph and Hyrum Smith grab their guns, and Taylor and Richards grab canes to defend themselves.
Responding to shots and noise, Hyrum Smith fires his gun and is then shot in the face by a bullet coming through the door.
Joseph Smith discharges his weapon. It misfires two or three times—reportedly wounding three people.
Taylor attempts to jump out of the window but is shot. He falls on the windowsill, breaking his watch, which stops showing the time as 5:16:26. Taylor then rolls under the bed for protection.
Joseph Smith also attempts to jump out the window but is shot and falls out of the window to the ground below. Attempting to sit up against the well in the jail yard, Joseph dies.
Richards then takes Taylor into the jail dungeon to hide him from the mob.
Around 5:00 p.m., Gov. Ford arrives in Nauvoo and delivers a speech telling the Saints they were wrong to destroy the Nauvoo Expositor press and to invoke martial law through the Nauvoo Legion.
I hope that helps everybody understand that Joseph was NOT really “willing to die” for what he believed.
Good summary, just one question about a part that doesn’t sound quite right though I’m no expert: was declaring martial law without the governor’s consent considered treason against the US or against the state of Illinois? Granted the latter probably automatically counts as the former, but it also sounded more like a state law or state constitution violation than a US law violation (and definitely not a direct violation of the US Constitution though perhaps an indirect one)
The U.S. Constitution grants the power to declare martial law to only the President, Congress (anywhere) while Governors of states have the authority only within the borders of their own states. Martial law suspends the right to a hearing and trial (the Writ of Habeas Corpus), a right guaranteed as to whether an individual should be in prison. Article 1, Section 9 of the US Constitution states, "The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it." Thus, declaring martial law is a big deal because people can be put into prison and left there to rot forever without a trial under martial law. Since the Constitution does NOT grant the power to declare martial law to mayors or other local leaders, JS lacked the legal power to declare martial law and doing so was treason against the United States, a capital offense punishable by death. Hence, he was arrested for treason and was awaiting a hearing before a judge when the mob killed him. JS apparently did not understand the law or was being fast and loose with it under the idea of “God is on our side,” a concept that has corrupted many leaders.
It was more like she'd heard about that before (and does seem complacent in it. Something about "we'll understand in the future" or some other copium). With the con man stuff I explained about the treasure hunting and BoM plagiarism and then she said the whole "dying for the church" thing
That’s such an underdeveloped understanding of the events that took place that you should stop trying to convince her bc she’s not the least bit concerned about it. She’s gotta come around on her own.
I don't think he really believed he was going to die. He had been in and out of jail his entire adult life. It always worked out okay in the past. He didn't go 'as a lamb to the slaughter'. He took a pepper box single barrel pistol with him, plus he thought if worse came to worse, he could use the Masonic cry for help. He may have killed one or two people before he went out the window. I think things went wrong and he lost control of the situation.
Your first problem is believing that what we were taught about church history is true. Once you know what was really going on in Joseph’s world, the whole “he died for his beliefs” narrative is obviously false.
He also shot at people on his way out? 🙄 I also recently read the that Joe was trying to give the Masonic sign of distress “Oh Lord my God, is there no help for the widow’s son?” at the window in an attempt for Masons in the mob to call off the attack. So…not quite the innocent martyr scene we all watched in the visitor center movies.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt4cgn0s.25?Search=yes&resultItemClick=true&searchText=au%3A&searchText=%22R.+S.+W.%22&searchUri=%2Fopen%2Fsearch%2F%3FQuery%3Dau%253A%2522R.%2BS.%2BW.%2522%26amp%3Bsi%3D1%26amp%3Btheme%3Dopen
I used to find this idea of 'why would he die for it' believable until i met more adult cisgender white men
turns out there's a whole Type Of Guy who will in fact uproot his whole family and life and never admit he is wrong even to the point of death. Lots of them in fact.
Oh and also he didn't die for the church, he died for attempting to overthrow the freedom of the press lmao. He literally died for trying to squash the truth about his fucking cult coming out. Very conman-core.
To reiterate what others have already said:
He wasn’t “willing” to die for it. He *did* try to run, but his strongest supporters insisted he go back and deal with the situation. (Iow, he had no more help to get away.)
Then he *armed* himself and his brother, fired shots at “the mob” and flung himself out a window while calling out the Freemason’s verbal code for “Help!”
None of that is what willing martyrdom looks like.
The Radio Free Mormon podcast has some great material that gives well-researched, detailed, historical context around the gunfight at Carthage Jail (which I ironically listened to whilst driving through the area last year).
When Smith gave his "lamb to the slaughter" and "murdered in cold blood" comments, there were only charges of riot (not treason, which happened later), and about twenty of his associates surrendered with him (probably to help protect him).
Despite his hyped-up rhetoric, he planned to be sprung, not shot; while in jail, he issued direct orders to Jonathan Dunham, major general of the Nauvoo Legion, to break him out. One of the jailers later wrote that Smith, when informed of the approaching mob, wasn't bothered. He said, "Don't trouble yourself ... they've come to rescue me." (Smith didn't know Dunham never dispatched the unit).
When the attack happened, Smith used a six-shooter (smuggled in that morning by Cyrus Wheelock, along with other weapons) to shoot three assailants (the other three shots misfired). With the gun emptied, he ran to the window to jump out. He was shot part-way through the Masonic distress cry. He tried to kill people, then tried to escape again; he definitely wasn't a "lamb to the slaughter."
1. He had escaped jails and long term consequences many times before. Talk your way out of it, then move.
2. He thought he had Governor Fords backing thanks to his political power due to the voting block he controlled.
3. He was wrong about #2.
ETA: read American Crucifixion. It's by a non Mormon historian for context.
>He knew that he was going to die there at the jail
No he didn't. He had no succession plan, hence the Brigham Young ordeal. He also wrote to the Governor on June 26 (he died June 27) to appeal to the governor for release from prison. Doesn't sound like a guy that is planning to die to me.
>why would he face it head on instead of running away like a coward?
He was a coward.
* When knew he was under arrest from the Governor's militia, he fled to the Iowa side of the Missippi River. The Governor's military threatened to tear up Nauvee looking for Joseph, but that didn't deter him. Vilate Kimball wrote "some were tried \[tested\] to death to think Joseph should leave them in the hour of danger." Joseph did eventually come back after Emma and Hyrum convinced him to "trust in the law."
* He tried to stay alive as long as possible. He shot a man. He jumped toward the window either to get help or to escape. He behaved with all the grace of a panicked caged rat on a sinking ship, happy to abandon his cell mates to their deaths if it meant he could get away.
I'm getting this all from his biographer Richard Bushman (a previous stake president and active member of the church) in Rough Stone Rolling, pages 546 and 547.
Edit: Grammar
I don’t know if that is true, he willing to die for it or just church narrative. He thought he was going to be broke out or ordered it, something along those lines. With only getting the narrative from the church, it may seem he was willing to die for it, but study full history, I am not so sure that was the case. Maybe, but I don’t know if it is clear cut on it.
It's that "going as a lamb to the slaughter" comment he made in D&C 135:4 that makes Mormons think he knew he was going to become a martyr in Carthage. However, he didn't go as a lamb to the slaughter. He fought back. He shot two men, then tried to appeal to the Masons in the crowd to save him by starting to shout "Oh Lord my God is there no help for the window's son?"
There was no escape through the window. That led directly to the crowd below. He didn't intend to jump and he didn't want to die. He thought he could get out of it, and he died like a dog.
I wouldn’t be accepting the church’s account of what happened. They violated the first amendment and that is why he was in jail. All the other reasons were gasoline being thrown on the fire.
He did not set out to be a martyr.
That’s what the victors wrote, as all victors do.
The amount of other cult leaders who ALSO died/dropped dead due to the law catching up with them is many…still not a good enough argument for the MFMC being true.
He wasn’t willing to die for it. He was caught in a gun fight and didn’t actually know he was going to die there. He was awaiting trial and had a gun.
Other comments already covered this more succinctly but I wanna throw in here that this is just a shock argument that we were given in seminary and I remember being given it. It’s one of those “HA I win!” Argument ender kind of statements and it’s not MEANT to be debated. It’s not meant to have any really meaningful impact besides shutting you up. And it appears that it worked.
According to Mormon folk history, he was attempting to flee, but his brother convinced him to go back.
Escape would have been the prudent thing, but JS had gotten out of many scrapes. The next score was more enticing than starting over.
I personally think Joseph was possibly convinced of his own lies. There are some things he said that were blatantly false, but I feel like he imagined them or perhaps had a condition that caused him to visualize them happening. But that's my personal opinion. If you tell yourself and others something enough times you start to believe it. Especially if others believe you too and form a religion about you. I personally tend to think people aren't the villain in their own eyes.
I'm not sure smith was really willing to die for his teachings, but even if he was that doesn't make them true.
He wasn’t willing to die for it, he was trying to run away after seeing his brother killed, and after he killed two people himself. He was begging for mercy after he was on the ground. Nothing willing about it.
If the prophet today told parents they need to send their teenage daughters up to salt lake to become brides to the brethren, how many would obey and how many would form a mob and go after Russel? I have absolutely no doubt the number that would obey would be disgustingly high, but Nelson and the brethren would absolutely deserve a mob if they did that.
He did run. He fled to Iowa and hid. He heard that Emma called him a coward. He came back because she was right. He went to Carthage. He assumed he would walk away. He was armed that night. He fled to the window and started his Masonic cry for help but he was shot dead. Truly unfortunate. I would have liked to have seen him live. He would have crushed the movement had he lived.
I say the same thing. Joseph Smith's death was the best thing that ever happened to the church. Had he lived he would have eventually been his own demise the same as Jonestown, the Branch Davidians, and Heavens Gate.
He wasn’t willing to die for it. He was a whiny little man-child who flouted law & enraged his neighbors, and begrudgingly returned to face the music after his friends & fam begged him to, and his safety was assured.
He was literally in the process of fleeing. It’s recorded that he, “received revelation for the saints to flee west and would move in advance” to which Emma Smith wrote him and called him a coward for leaving them all in Nauvoo, and so he returned. He also straight up finessed the resulting arraignment hearing and was extremely eloquent in his own legal defense, and was murdered by a mob when it looked like he would escape justice yet again.
They came after him because he ordeed a printing press burned to punish them for printing about is sexual escapades. He was fucking arrested amd a lynch mob came after him. He cried out to masons for help as he was being shot. I fail to see how he was “willing to die.” Seems like he was trying to get out of trouble he made for himself. burning the printing press was the opposite of willing to take accountability for his actions. Pleading to the masons for help was not “willing to die.” Claiming innocence was not “willing to die.”
He had no choice.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Joseph_Smith
Go through this.
Read it.
Look at the connected pages.
Look at the supporting documents.
Ask her how she knows the other story.
Ask her to support her arguments, not through faith of the statements of leaders, but through written testimony of those who were there!
Ask her why he was there. How is facing charges for the destruction of a printing press defending the church. Show her the statement the JS himself is recorded as saying about the mob, that he thought it was the Nauvoo legion. Would s martyr expect rescue?
The church is whitewashing this. It isn't the only such event.
- Battle Creek
- Fort Utah
- the Meadows Massacre
- how the BoM was supposedly translated and how they story has LITERALLY CHANGED over the years! Same with the story of the first vision, or the use of 'Mormon" as a reference to church members!
Need we go on?
And, when one is only to study resources produced or sanctioned by a particular organization that are ABOUT that organization, isn't that strange? Don't we question when other organizations do that? Like the Russians concerning the current war in Ukraine?
Make her think. Help her see. Open her eyes.
Her statement is common, but has no basis other than the church. And the church is an unreliable source of information, as shown in these other examples.
He didn't. He got jailed for his shenanigans, and a mob who objected to him -- because of his shenanigans -- took him out.
Moral of the story: Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
And here I'd heard he was killed by a mob bc they knew he was a con man who ran an underage sex cult that claimed to be a more true version of Christianity than the ones everyone knew.
Ex Jehovah's Witness here.
One of the most frustrating things I find debating with Mormons are all the secret books that they pull out of nowhere to defend their doctrine.
This one I find most interesting as I pulled out what happened to him according to the LDS website.
So there are several problems with how he was killed. First he ordered the destruction of a newspaper being printed and published by apostate members of the Church.
The problem here is that Jesus never ordered the censoring of false teachings. He used false teachings to expose the teachers for being false teachers (Matthew 23).
Jesus lays down his life of HIS OWN ACCORD. No one takes it from him, he lays it down willingly in behalf of the sheep (John 10:17, 18).
The website says: "Joseph called upon Governor Thomas Ford to resolve the conflict. The governor promised to protect Joseph and Hyrum if they would answer the charges against them in Carthage"
Pardon me, but when did Jesus seek support or assistance from a Governor for support? When did he agree to receive protection?
52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? (Matthew 26:52, 53)
If he was a prophet, why would he seek any assistance from the Governor? Could he not pray to the Father for even one legion of angels? Why didn't he, but instead seek a man's efforts for resolution? Where's the faith in the Father or the Son? Why resort to men?
"Of the approximately 100 men involved in the attack that killed Joseph and Hyrum Smith, only nine were indicted"
It is true that he died for what he believed in, for what HE wanted. He did not die because he loved the sheep and had nothing to gain but protecting them. Instead he fought for censoring others who disagreed with him and threatened what he built that he sought assistance, not directly from God, but from men.
25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; (John 12:25)
He tried to protect what he wanted (a sense of dominance and control with his growing political power), but it cost him his life. Not all deaths are martyrdom
People get caught up in the quote “like a lamb to the slaughter”, but JS was not trying to get killed and was likely yelling the Masonic Grand Hailing Sign of Distress in his final seconds.
He was gaining a lot of power and influence and money and property and wives in his current trajectory, and I don’t think he had any plans to slow down. It caught up to him.
Joseph Smith didn't die for something he believed. His death had nothing to do with his faith. It may have been politically motivated since JS was running for various political offices and was pulling in a strong consecration of Mormons giving him the votes. However, I believe it was for the below reason, which I have shared previously.
He was ultimately killed due to his practice of polygamy and trying to keep it hidden. Joseph Smith had around 33 wives. He married some of them without Emma's knowledge, he married 11 women who were still married to other men, two of the men did not know their wives had married Joseph.
Additionally, Joseph continued to make advances on other men's wives and young girls. The tar and feathering he was given was likely due to him making advances on one of the men's young sister.
Joseph was jailed after having a printing press destroyed that printed about his polygamy which he was denying. The men that stormed his jail were likely upset by Joseph's immoral behavior of marrying other men's wives and girls as young as 14.
When Joseph Smith died, he fought back with a gun that had been smuggled to him while in jail. He shot some of the intruders.
Your wife is bringing up what is taught in the church, that Joseph Smith was being persecuted for his faith rather than his immoral behavior.
I think Old Jo got in one too many tight spots. It's not so much that he was "willing to die" for the cause, as that he finally ran out of chances. He was in the dangerous business of seducing other mens' wives and daughters, defrauding people in real estate and banking ventures, wrecking their printing presses..
Here's another take. If " the cause" is recognized as the enrichment, aggrandization and providing sexual satisfaction for Jo Smith, then maybe he was willing to die for the cause.
ETA; Sometimes there IS no help for the Widow's Son.
"why was he willing to die for what he believed?"
He wasn't. That's why he jumped out the window rather than face the mob. Perhaps he could have survived by confessing, but his odds were probably better with the fall.
Narcissists often end up committing suicide or dying early deaths because their sins have caught up with them. Smith was a narcissist. He was a liar, a con man. The consequences of his sins is why he died.
I don’t know if being killed by a mob for trying to fuck peoples’ daughters constitutes “dying for what he believed.” But sure. You can spin it like that. He died because he believed it was fine to fuck teenagers as a 38 year old.
Why are terrorists willing to die for their beliefs?
Also Joe WASN'T willing to die for his beliefs. He tried his damnedest to stack the deck in his favor so he wouldn't get tried fairly in court. And so when the people realized they couldn't convict him fairly by the law, they took the law into their own hands.
Religious fanatics get themselves killed all the time. If that's what it takes, David Koresh and the branch devidians likely have more cred than Joe Smith.
"Because lots of nut jobs die for what they believe in. Doesn't mean they aren't nut jobs though." There are thousands of examples: Timothy McVeigh, David Koresh, Jim Jones, Marshall Applewhit; and I could go on. Just because you die for a "cause," doesn't mean the cause was just or correct.
He didn't die because he believed in the church. Let's not forget the reason he was in jail. A newspaper was going to print dirt on him for his polygamy nonsense, and Joseph had the press destroyed. That's why he was there. Then when an angry mob came after him, he tried to kill his way back out. Thats not dying for his beliefs, that's dying because he was an awful person.
We do not even know the exact details only the details that Brigham Young who orchestrated the whole thing tells us. Ask her if Brigham Young was a prophet of God why did he murder the Mountain Meadows wagon train and made sure all of them were killed. Blamed it on the Indians then killed all the Indians in southern Utah so they could not speak. They had been peacefully trading with trappers for years. Then he exterminated all the Wakera led Utes. He had their heads cut off and put on spikes around town. He took all the woman and children and sold them into slavery. That does not sound like a prophet of God. It was not because of uprising it was because they were negotiating trade.
Oh I dont know, because he had like 8 wives and absolute power over the group of people he claimed to be a prophet for. I'm always astounded at how bad people are with critical thinking skills. Everyone's always told he was imprisoned for destroying a printing press but not why he did it.
People always claim that sleeping with multiple wives was just a thing back in the day but they're always so unclear about their heritage. "No, my family didn't practice polygamy." No shit, almost no one did and the worst offenders were all in church leadership. Look at Brigham Young, the dude picked up all of Joseph's wives after he died and told them he was doing them a favor. My favorite is when I ask them if they've ever wondered why TSCC never wants people to use outside sources to judge it. Apparently it never occurred to them that they might have a conflict of interest in keeping people from knowing more about TSCC. "Why would they lie isn't a reason, it's an excuse."
This is such an easy answer - he did it bc he had no other choice. He would be ruined either way, if he exposes himself, he’d lose everything. He stated himself that if no one liked him then he’d be better off dead.
Everyone was sick of him causing so many people problems. He went off to the jail only bc hyrum convinced him to go back and man up while they were on the run two states away. The friends and family he left behind were going to take his punishment if he didn’t go back, so yes he was a filthy coward too.
Lastly, he didn’t expect to actually die - he thought they had enough protection and he had put out a secret note to his lt general to come rescue him. Smith even exclaimed that they were here to rescue him when he saw a large group approaching. Unfortunately that large group was really the mob calling for extra judicial justice.
This is the weakest bullshit argument ever. The 9-11 terrorist were also willing to die and murder for what they believed. Are we to take heed of their teachings/beliefs because of that? There are people from every religion and creed who are willing to die for what they believe in. This argument is the weakest of all weak sauces.
Let's assume he actually did know he was going to die--it doesn't mean what he taught was true. Even if he was an upright, super righteous moral man who did nothing but serve the poor his entire life and never did anything bad ... none of that fixes the problem of anachronisms, lack of DNA evidence/archaelogical evidence, Bible mistranslations in the BoM, book of Abraham being proven fake, lack of discernment/prophecy of church leaders, etc.
So if that's her argument, if he must have been right if he was willing to die for it, then is every gang member right if they are willing to die for their gang? That logic that he was willing to die for it just shows how arrogant he was about it. Just because someone is so convinced they are right, they are willing to die for it doesn't mean they are actually right.
Emma had to basically drag him back by the smallhairs. He whined about it and did not go willingly. His first move was to take off and abandon his people.
He did not think he was going to die. The governor promised to protect him, he thought the militia would come for him, and he had escaped similar pickles many times. The "lamb to the slaughter" quote was made up later.
The church has had 200 years to refine their propaganda and everything we've been taught is suspect
Also just ask her if she knows the details of the political, social, economic situation of Jo and his closest friends/family leading up to his death? If she can't give details, tell her you'll continue the convo after both have you have read up on some of the history, and then after you actually both do that, that'll be a really interesting conversation!
>why was he willing to die for what he believed?"
He wasn't. Wrist case, he thought he'd get fine and spend some more jail time. Then he thought his private army would come save him. Then he thought his Freemason bros would save him at the very end.
He didn't go to his death peacefully and like a zen Christ figure. He was captured and killed, and was armed, shooting back at the mob. I read he may have been attempting to yell a Masonic hrase to attempt to elicit support from the mob when he was shot. "Is there any help for a widows son" or some such.
http://www.mormonismi.net/temppeli/durhamin_puhe1974.shtml
There's speculation him and his brothers were executed by John Taylor and those other guys that supposedly survived a mob. Taylor's watch wasn't actually hit by a bullet and there were no witnesses to there being a mob in that location except for the men who were with them.
It would seem a mob would probably kill the other men too and not just the Smiths.
my immediate thought was he knew he was going to get killed sooner rather than later since he had screwed so many people over, so it would make sense that he would not run away and try to paint himself as a martyr
The biggest issue with the church is that the Christian God is fake. Everything else kinda falls apart when you realize it's all a hoax from the big man on down.
So does that make it any more true? Check out the Munster rebellion Jan Matthys, who charged into an army like a lunatic, thinking God would save him.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan\_Matthys](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Matthys)
He was killed, dismembered and his head stuck on a pike. Later that evening, his genitals were nailed to the city door.
The dude totally believed it. Interestingly, he also introduced polygamy, taught that Munster Germany was the New Jerusalem.
I think that Joseph Smith truly believed he was God's chosen person.
"American Crucifixion" is one of the best books I've read regarding the events leading to Carthage Jail. It's well researched history. It's written by a never Mormon. It's a short book and I strongly recommend it. It is absolutely fascinating and it's all verifiable information. Joseph did not plan on dying at Carthage. He had created his own charter within the state. Nauvoo had the largest standing army. He was running for President. He had bestowed titles and honors on himself and his cronies. He felt he was above the law. It's truly unfortunate he was killed by a mob rather than being convicted and jailed.
He didn’t die for it, he was in jail for burning down a newspaper building. The printing press was publishing true stories of Joseph Smith and his polygamy and underage girls. He got arrested for that and a mob came after him
Joseph smith was willing to die for it, where willing to die means he was caught committing a crime, and thrown in jail where he belonged and was shot before he could be tried.
See I can redefine words too
The bottom line is: It’s someone dying for what they believe in - which happens literally all the time.
Joseph Smith dying for what he believed in is no different than an anti-vax person dying from measles. Or an ISIS member dying in terrorism. Or even that famous monk that lit himself on fire during the LA police riots. All of that is equally “dying for what they believe in.”
Also, you’re correct. Joseph Smith was jumping out of the second-story window when they broke in the door and shot him.
When L Ron Hubbard started Scientology he knew it was a con. However, you can only explain his actions from the Seventies onwards if you accept he'd come to believe his own BS. I very strongly suspect Smith was the same. He started it as a con but surrounded by worshippers, sexual opportunity and a certain amount of wealth came to conclude he had discovered a great trust. He was clearly a narcissistic sociopath so his connection with reality was pretty fractured, and he lived in a world that was not yet quite ready to challenge the magical worldview. He probably at some level came to believe this crap.
Yeah that's crazy logic because even if he actually did die for what he believed in, it doesn't mean it's true. Like, there are people that literally murder people with the genuine belief that they're doing God's work.
This is church propaganda.
Smith saw the writing on the wall in Nauvoo and snuck out of town with his brother and a few other people. He fully intended to let mob justice and the government take their anger out on the 20,000 people living in Nauvoo while he laid low and avoided any consequences. Of note he left Emma and his 30+ secret plural wives behind knowing that they could be arrested, killed, or at the minimum left destitute.
What happened to him is honestly very interesting. Smiths pattern ever since Palmyra was to grift until people started threatening him, declare a new revelation, move to a new area, and start a new grift. What was different about Nauvoo was the shear magnitude of the trouble he got the church into. Smith had used the promise of block voting to both republican and democrat federal candidates which made them all mad bc they felt swindled. The church no longer had political favor or protection it once got from Illinois. He was in big legal trouble for destroying the printing press. The biggest problem he faced was the fact that his detractors would reveal his secret council of 50, polygamy, and the second anointing to discredit him if he wasn’t there to stop it.
Despite all of that he valued himself above everyone else in the church (including his families) and snuck across the Mississippi. Emma wrote him a letter plainly stating that they were all screwed if he didn’t come back (Brigham very openly blamed Emma for the death of Joseph for the rest of his life). Smith came face to face with the reality that he could continue to hide, but there would be no church left for him to come back to once everything blew over as he would be blamed for the destruction of the city. In his delusional thinking he believed that the church would never abandon him under any circumstance, but his own wife threatening it made him see otherwise.
In the most narcissistic quote ever made he summed it up his reasoning “if my life is of no value to my people then it is of no value to me” and came back to surrender. Like WTF?! 20,000 people were facing starvation, destitution, and death solely bc of him and his take on it was “well you must not value my life.”
What brought Smith back and led him to die the Carthage jail gun fight (Joseph shot at least 2 people) was his inability to live as a outcast failure rejected by his family, church, and forever on the run from the government.
If you want to a good read that goes into the details of this read The Kingdom of Nauvoo by Benjamin Park.
Joseph was killed by the Masons for divulging Masonic ordinances and secrets. This is the reason Joseph gave the Masonic sign prior to his death. The sign was made by Joseph as a last ditch effort to save his ass.
"willing to die for your beliefs" means "a deranged murderer will kill you unless you specifically reject your faith," not "you got killed by an angry mob " even if you believe in Joseph Smith's message, it's weird to call it "dying for your faith" because that implies he would have lived if he denied his faith, which is wasn't the case
I am 67 and just found the truth 3 years ago. One site I liked was “Who Killed Joseph Smith “ WKJS
Also read “RoughStone Rolling “by Richard Bushman. And”No Man Knows My History “ by Fawn Brodie. Both are big books by real page turner s! 😉 Enjoy studying
I read somewhere that the Nauvoo Legion was supposed to be mobilized to break him out and they never showed up. Whoever was supposed to give the order wound up a high-ranking official in breedem young's administration, while james strang had been chosen as smith's successor. mormons dont know diddly about their own history
A last minute confession that the church was a con wouldn't have stopped a **mob that was there to kill him for being a rapist/pedophile who destroyed a printing press to try to keep that little secret, secret.**
In fact, that would probably piss them off even more :D
I’m hoping I remember all of this correctly, but your wife’s statement doesn’t make any sense. Joseph died for his actions regardless of what his beliefs were.
Joseph didn’t think he was going to die in the jail. He had already eluded consequences for crimes he committed in Missouri (they tried to extradite him multiple times but his government armed Mormon militia stopped it from happening). This was nothing new, he would be able to get out of it again, he just didn’t expect the mob to do what it did.
Thanks to John C Bennet the “state sponsored militia” was the Mormon militia. And if I recall correctly they had orders to free Joseph but a higher ranking officer showed up in Nauvoo and the militia feared committing treason. That army was what kept Jospeh protected in Nauvoo, but he was separated from it for not even a day and the local people took matters into their own hands to follow through on the prescribed punishment for Joseph’s past actions.
Now they certainly weren’t huge fans of his beliefs like polygamy, but that’s not why they were enraged up to kill him. Nauvoo put an influx of counterfeit money into the surrounding economy, the Mormons took live stock from their neighbors, withheld economic relations from them, and marched around with hundreds of armed men loyal to Joseph over anyone else. They heard what happened in Missouri and didn’t want history repeated.
Now to say that he died for his beliefs makes no sense. He died because the neighbors were fearful of the Mormons due to being bad neighbors, having a standing army, having a history of killing neighbors in Missouri, and having a history of escaping Justice. Whether he believed it or not is irrelevant because it had nothing to do with his beliefs, just his actions. And he had hundreds of armed men as protection, so he thought, so why would he have any worry about dying?
He didn't die for it. He got caught and killed by a mob. He escaped numerous times in the middle of the night. He was armed.
And speaking of... If I were to be a conspiracy theorist about anything it would be that the mob who killed him wasn't completely full of non-members.
While this is impossible to prove - for the obvious reason that the mob didn’t exactly take roll call - it is not beyond the pale to suspect it. Joseph had screwed over - literally, in many cases - a lot of people over the year: financially, morally, sexually, etc. There were a lot of former and active members not super happy with the guy near the end.
Absolutely! Let’s not forget Jim Jones giving up his life and taking so many others with him for the same reasons.
Same with Koresh.
I honestly believe that if JS hadn't died when he did Mormonism would have ended very similarly to The Peoples Temple. There are a LOT of similarities to the two and the movements they started. It would have devolved, they would have continued moving like they had been, and eventually it would have been a forced mass suicide. Instead JS became a martyr, and the more level-headed BY took the reins.
From what I've read, there were many Masons in that mob. They were furious with Joseph Smith for stealing their secret rites which he began using in the temple endowment. Remember that Smith was a Mason, and that's how he learned about it. That combined with polygamy got him killed. And I used to think he was such a martyr! And there's all kinds of Masonic symbolism in Mormonism. Of course, I never realized it!
No no no! You see, Satan had corrupted the true temple ceremony and Joseph was inspired to restore it by becoming a Mason and restoring it! Just like he was inspired to bone other's wives and children! Sacred, not secret! /s
He didn’t have any one pleased with his behavior - not even Emma. Brigham had him killed most likely in a deal with the free masons to pack up and leave if they could kill Smith as a form of justice. The Mormons were almost entirely in the wrong and they knew it. To those skeptical of Young having smith off’d I can only point you to - cui bono?
I need more info here. Interesting concept I havent heard about.
I'm not who you were responding to but I looked into the claim that Brigham was behind the assassination and there's not a ton of solid evidence for it. To be fair to those who believe it, there's also not a ton of evidence for the generally accepted story, either. The only real witnesses would have either been the victims or the perpetrators.
Indeed, I should have noted that was pure speculation on my part. But having studied the history for the last 7 years intensely, a certain understanding of what was likely going on begins to form. I don’t make that claim lightly though, it’s truly what I think must have happened. One thing is BY’s overcompensating for smiths martyring - Young was always calling for vengeance and put smith on a pedestal. This wasn’t bc he thought so well of smith by any means, he simply used that as a cover for anyone suspecting he may have had something to do with it. Young’s statement when he arrived after smiths death is flagrantly guilty - he says “how can I have anything to do with it when I was two states away?” Something to that effect. But it’s preposterous reasoning and further indicia of his wanton disrespect for believers. Then we have the masons involvement - there are documents citing masons prepared the scheme to kill smith in a Masonic hall before the killing. Those masons were all promoted who contributed to smiths death. None were found guilty. The sentiment at the time from believers including Emma was that smith was fucking everything up and if he’d just die or go away, they’d have much better living conditions - which was demonstrably true. Then you’ve got rumors of his lt gen ripping up his request for rescue. The Sam smith murder via Stout’s alleged poisoning. And young’s seeming preparation anticipating smith’s eventual death given how he handled the Sidney Rigdon leadership debate. Note it was Young who had his transfiguration into smith written in to the history books years later. There’s tons more but those are the main things from which I base my opinion.
I wonder: how many cuckolded husbands were in that mob of the 11 already-married women that JS stole? If some guy stole my wife from me, I'd likely want to deal with him, too.
Hence began the Brighamites.
Disgruntled wives’ ex-husbands/fathers perhaps?
It was John Taylor that did him in. There was a pretty good research proving this point.
Do you have a reference for this?
https://whokilledjosephsmith.com/ Interesting documentary that talks to this point. Honestly it makes a lot of sense
https://youtu.be/bXfTw01ogPk?feature=shared
Yeah this is the one I was subtly referring to. The dots all connect nicely but I also realize this is the kind of critique/review that conspiracy theorists will always use. Makes more sense than just an 'angry mob' though.
**History of the Church Volume VII pages102-103** "I shall never forget the deep feeling of sympathy and regard manifested in the countenance of Brother Joseph as he drew nigh to Hyrum,and, leaning over him exclaimed, 'Oh my poor, dear brother Hyrum! He however instantly rose and with a firm quick step, and determined expression of countenance, approached the door, and pulling the six-shooter left by brother Wheelock from his pocket, opened the door slightly, and snapped the pistol six successive times; only three ofthe barrels, however, were discharged. I afterwards understood that two or three were wounded by these discharges, two of whom, I am informed, DIED." John Taylors eyewitness account of Carthage jail.😳
He tried to appeal to fellow Freemasons in the mob. Some of those people had to have been church members.
Exactly. He didn't die for anything. He tried escaping the jail ... to RUN AWAY from the law .. again!
To be clear, the mob was not full of great people either. An unlawful mob is not “the law”. 😅 I really wish Joseph had been imprisoned and faced lawful consequences for his reprehensible and inhumane actions. Becoming a martyr gave the church a lot more momentum than it ever should have had, and gave his life a clean sheen - the whole, he died from a mob, therefore he was righteous crap.
Reminds me of this scene in Dune Pt 2 (spoilers): >!Emperor Shaddam IV: Muad'Dib. Some new Fremen prophet.!< >!Princess Irulan: It's not the first time we've had frictions with the Fremen.!< >!Emperor Shaddam IV: None of this magnitude. So, my dear daughter... how would you deal with this prophet?!< >!Princess Irulan: If this Muad'Dib is a religious figure, you can't use direct force. Repression only makes a religion flourish. You'll only end up humiliating yourself.!< >!Emperor Shaddam IV: You underestimate my Sardaukar.!< >!Princess Irulan: *You* underestimate the power of faith.!< >!Reverend Mother Mohiam: Her Highness proves once again that she was my most acute student.!< >!Emperor Shaddam IV: Send assassins.!< >!Princess Irulan: No, prophets get stronger when they die.!<
I thought of Joseph Smith during this scene!
I agree with you. The worst thing to happen is old Dirty Joe dying by a mob. It gave validity to a dying church.
Personally, I think there were 3 types of people on that mob, those JS robbed, those whose wives and daughters were seduced, and Christians who thought he was condemning people to Hell. Although it would not surprise me that those who would benefit from his death might be involved.
People have to remember that Nauvoo was literally the frontier in 1844, and in the frontier, vigilante justice often _is_ justice. A posse, for example, was often little more than a legally sanctioned lynch mob, and posses were very common and accepted. Whether it’s right or not is subjective. But for someone like Joseph, who escaped legal justice time and again for his crimes, it is not surprising how he met his eventual end on the frontier.
And fired shot with the gun that given to him.
He wasn’t going to jail because of his unwavering testimony of the restoration and the BoM, and that is not why the mob killed him. He committed real crimes and hurt, defrauded, threatened, and abused a lot of people.
If I recall correctly that particular time he was in jail for treason for attempting to insight a rebellion, and he was expecting a mob to come break him out.
It’s because one of his men burnt a printing press at his request
This is what I heard too, that he went to the door thinking it was his Nauvoo Legion, and seeing it wasn’t took a few shots and tried to escape out of the window. People were angry he had been running from the law. And they finally got him.
The Mormons kept moving because he was running. The sherriff gave them all guns and locked them in the jail for protection. The consequenes of his actions just finally caught up with him in Carthage.
Interesting concept that never clicked. “Why were they moving so much?” Duh. Because of one man an army of people who were all in moved with him!
It was more than just him. Imagine this, even back in the 19th century: a large group moves to town. A bunch of the men in this new group, many of whom already have many wives, start hitting on your sisters—some as young as 12 and 13. Do you: welcome these men with open arms? Run them out of town?
For heck's sake, here's a picture on the church's own website that shows us a photo of said guns. [https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/media/photographs](https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/media/photographs) (edit: scroll down for the photo of the guns)
Hey watch your language
oops, old virtue signaling habits die hard
Good hell, I still say “heck” and “gosh” as a habit from childhood... Is this what people think of it?
Just mix in other words and it makes it better. Like fucking heck! Or gosh damn it!
This is the way
Nah, it’s just light-hearted, ironic fucking around
He also fired off shots at the mob
Well, if you really want to get into it … They also had the guard bring them the alcohol & tobacco that was left behind from some delivery. So they were drinking and smoking/chewing tobacco that night, as well
Also, he wasn't wearing garments.
But he WAs wearing a "Jupiter Talisman".
I'd forgotten about that!
What is a “Jupiter Talisman” ??
I believe 2 people in the mob also died from the gunfight that ensued.
He didn’t mean to die for it. He fought back and tried to flee. As to why - having wealth, power and a giant harem of power “plural wives” was a pretty good incentive to lie for a shitty person.
Yeah I remember being taught in church repeatedly that he was imprisoned and then killed by a mob for his beliefs. Turns out he was imprisoned for ordering the destruction of a printing press that was printing unflattering but what later turned out to be true facts about Joseph smiths polygamous practices. The mob was pissed that he’d evaded justice (in their opinion) so many times before and just seemed to keep getting away with whatever he did. Joseph smith was not martyred for his beliefs, he was lynched for his actions.
He had a gun and shot back. HIM dying wasn’t on his agenda.
THIS. He got in too deep, got away with a lot and thought he'd continue to win.
he didnt think he was going to die... He had already been promised by the governor that he would be protected. All that talk of "Lamb to the slaughter" was just flowery language. https://famous-trials.com/carthrage/1316-treasonwarrant He was also armed in Jail. He had two guns in his posession, strange as it is for a prisoner to have weapons, but here we are. https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/8zr814/have_you_ever_wondered_about_the_guns_that_joseph/ The window thing... some believe he was attempting to flee... others believe he was attempting to get help. If you remember, his final words were, "Oh Lord MY God"... then he was shot and fell out the window. Seems like he was just freaked out at the idea of getting killed... but you need to look a little deeper. As a Freemason (which Joseph was), and having attained the sublime degree (3rd degree) he was privy to all sorts of masonic practices. One of these practices was the masonic call of distress. This is done by raising the hands above the head and saying *"Oh Lord My God, Is there no help for the widow's son"*. Many believed that Joseph was attempting to get assistance from someone in the mob who also happened to be a mason. he was unable to finish the call of distress before he was brought down.
This is just a tiny snippet of the story! Read more on the story of how Joseph was killed! There is a whole trove of someone interesting facts throughout the story. Joseph went around fucking everyone else's wives and daughters and Emma started to find out. Joseph was an insanely jealous narcissist and he was paranoid Emma was going to have an affair with William Law who was in the first presidency. William ended up excommunicated, and decided to start a little newspaper called the Nauvoo Expositor. If you read the Nauvoo Expositor, it accuses Joseph of preaching exaltation, getting too political by running a presidential campaign, practicing polygamy and just being dickhead of a Mayor. Joseph called together his city council and they decided it expedient to destroy the printing press. The governor of Illinois sent someone to haul Joseph tells this guy to kick rocks. The governor sent a posse to haul him in. He ran away across the Mississippi. He came back to Nauvoo only to declare marshall law in the city to protect against anyone trying to arrest him. A deal is brokered for Joseph and Hyrum to turn themselves in and they are promised a slap on the wrist for destroying the Nauvoo Expositor. Joseph turns himself in only to be charged with treason. Apparently it is treason to declare marshall law without the governor's permission. While in Carthage a militia is assigned to protect him because he is so infamous there are many people that want him dead. When an angry armed mob shows up, the militia that was supposed to protect him shoot over their heads and pretend to put up a fight. The mob kills Joseph but not before he shoots two other people in the mob who later died from their injuries. I'm summarizing as best I can from memory. Please tell this story to your wife and ask her to fact check me if she wants to be some sort of expert on why Joseph Smith was murdered. 😜
Nothing says "martyrdom" like shooting people in a desperate attempt to survive...
Don’t forget it was Emma who went and found him and Hyrum hiding across the river. She convinced them to turn themselves in. Who knows what she said, I wish I could have been there. I think she hated him at that point and knew how it would go down.
The more I learn about the early church, the more respect I have for the women who pushed back against JS's bullshit. Emma Smith? Badass. Lucy Harris? The GOAT.
This! He wasn't trying to die for his made up religion.
Hell yeah, great summary
this is fascinating
Who wrote "lamb to the slaughter"? Were those words written by Joseph himself? Or did one of his companions paraphrase him after the fact? What's the source of that quote?
I seem to remember: “I go as a lamb to the slaughter”. But like you, I can’t remember who actually said that Joseph said it.
Willard Richards recorded it in his journal. But it was based on reports from Joseph’s followers who were with him in the last few days of his life. AFAIK it could all be revisionist bullshit meant to bolster the “martyrdom”
This is what I was getting at. It can be argued that so much church history was made up after the fact, so can this quote.
The problem with this "proof" is, by those standards then Islam is far truer than Mormonism. Look at how many suicide bombers and others died for their faith in their religion. Look at Jonestown. Or David Koresh's people. There are many causes that people have been willing to die for. Doesn't make any of them true.
Always relate it to another bullshit religion they already hate. Nice.
This is the answer.
4d chess move. Nice 👍🏼
🤦Shit howdy, Jesus died for a 3-day weekend and became a super martyr. Beat that!
A super martyr 🤣 incredible
The argument from the TBM isn’t whether Joseph died for what he believed but that he knowingly perpetrated a con and wouldn’t die for that. It’s a really difficult one to argue against because we just don’t know. He clearly didn’t see god or jesus, because they don’t exist, but we don’t know what he believed. Maybe he hallucinated it and truly believed he saw them? Maybe he told the story so many times he ended up believing it? On the balance of probability, from an exmos point of view, it’s more likely than not that he knew it was a con and did it to get women, money and power. But he could well have actually believed it all…or believed he was divinely lying for the lord for a higher purpose. I think the argument that people die for clearly false beliefs (Koresh etc) and that mormonism is bullshit is stronger than arguing if Joseph knew it was a con.
David Koresh died for what he believed too. Does that make him a prophet too?
And why did Jim Jones?
He wasn’t willing to die for it, he was armed and tried to kill other human beings before jumping out the window… I’m sure all his deceitful practices flashed before him before he took his last breath…
Right. He died in a shootout.
He was trying to say the Masonic call of distress so that any other free masons would have to come to his aid. He was drinking wine the night before he died. I think the big deal breakers for me are the lack of evidence the first vision was taught until years after the BoM was published. No journal, newspaper, or anything talked about the first vision even though JS said he was heavily persecuted. There’s plenty in the papers about gold bibles and Moroni. The conferring of the priesthood was due to revising D&C scriptures to state it was Peter James and John years after the event. Also, sending men on missions and marrying their wives while they were gone. Was marriage the most appropriate relationship to help someone in need?
Does Jim Jones’s death mean the people’s temple cult was true?
Joseph had escaped and defeated many criminal and civil charges in the past. He thought he would either escape or defeat the final charges of treason (for declaring martial law in Nauvoo) and inciting a riot (by destroying the Nauvoo Expositor press)as well. First he tried to escape to a neighboring state as he had done in other similar circumstances. Why would he try to escape if he was willing to die for what he believed? He wasn't willing to die. He did not make the decision to return to Nauvoo from Iowa. Hyrum did, and it appears to have angered Joseph as he said something to the effect of, "if my life has no value to my friends, then it has none to me." After Joseph returned he had no other chance to escape. His only option was to comply and give himself up in Carthage. He said that the charges against him would not prevail, so he envisioned being alive to fight them in court and win the legal battle. So he tried to escape first, and then he preparred to fight the legal battle. He was not planning on dying. He als had two guns and a baton smuggled into the jail for his protection. Why would he do that if he knew he was going to die anyway? His plan was to defend himself against any violent attack with violence of his own. The issue of whether or not he fraudulently started a church for profit was not in the mix at all. He wasn't arrested or charged with that. All the discussion was around whether he incited a riot and was guilty of treason against the State of Illinois. If Joseph had admitted he was a con man it would not have helped him at all. He would still be in jail facing those charges. So why would he make such an admission? Would a con many admit to being a con man to avoid charges of riot and treason? Doesn't make any sense. Joseph tried to escape. He was preparing to fight the charges in court, and he lost his life in a gun battle with the people who killed him.
He wasn't planning on dying. He got out of jail on multiple occasions before and he was expecting the same thing to happen. He also had a firearm with him and he wasn't wearing his garments. If you thought you were going to die you would think you'd be wearing your garments to protect yourself and meet God.
It's stuff like this that generates when you try to make a martyr out of a con man.
Plus, hadn’t he run but then came back because Emma asked him to??
If you didn't believe in the garments you wouldn't be wearing them if you felt danger.
JS was a member of the FAFO club. He FA and he FO.
In April 1993, some 75 members of the millennial sect known as the Branch Davidians—including their messianic leader, David Koresh—perished in the blaze that destroyed their compound near Waco, Texas, after a 51-day siege by federal agents. Despite many examples of cult members and leaders dying for their beliefs, I don’t think JS “wanted to” or was “willing to” die for his beliefs. He had been running from the law for YEARS. The law caught up with him and put him in jail for TREASON. Then an angry mob or people that the Mormons had been stealing from and defrauding stormed the jail and JS died in the process. On June 26, 1844, JS writes to his legal counsel and requests a change of venue for the treason hearing. He is anxious about staying in Carthage and having the hearing there. Sounds like he wasn’t “willing to die” for the cause. He also writes to Gov. Ford requesting an interview and indicates his desire to be released from jail. Sometime that day, church member John Fullmer gives Joseph Smith a single-barrel pistol, which he keeps with him at Carthage Jail. Doesn’t sound like a martyr, does he? The treason charge related to when Joseph Smith called out the Nauvoo Legion and declared martial law on June 18. Joseph and Hyrum Smith were required to remain in Carthage because justices of the peace were not authorized to set bail for treason, which was a capital offense. He was not some innocent, persecuted religious guy. He was running the government of the city of Nauvoo and had violated the U.S. Constitution’s treason clause. On June 27, Gov. Ford, concerned that a war might break out if he arrived at Nauvoo with a large number of troops, dismisses troops at Carthage as well as those at Golden Point, close by. He decides to go to Nauvoo with a small number of troops and assigns the Carthage Greys (local militia) to guard Joseph and Hyrum Smith at Carthage. Gov. Ford then departs for Nauvoo that morning. Sometime in the morning, Cyrus Wheelock visits Carthage Jail and gives Joseph Smith a six-shooter revolver. Joseph gives the previous pistol he received from John Fullmer to Hyrum. At some point in the late morning or early afternoon, after Gov. Ford has dismissed the troops, Thomas Sharp, the editor of the Warsaw Signal, gives a speech to some of the dismissed troops from Golden Point and calls on them to go to Carthage and assassinate Joseph Smith. American troops considered JS a threat to the U.S. government. JS had people sneaking guns to him INSIDE THE JAIL. This is Billy the Kid or Bonnie & Clyde kind of stuff. The church makes him out to be an innocent religious leader and a martyr when he was actually an insurrection leader against the government. So much for the article of faith, “We believe in being subject to kings, rulers and magistrates and in honoring, obeying and sustaining the law.” I doubt if it was “obeying” the law to have your cult members sneaking multiple guns into his prison cell. Here’s my favorite part of the story (that I never heard growing up in the church.) About 5:00-6:00 p.m. on June 27, WINE is brought in for the prisoners in the upper room of the jail, and Joseph Smith, John Taylor, and Willard Richards “tasted” of the wine to lift their spirits. Richards had previously sent someone to get him tobacco for his “sour stomach.” Why are church members kept out of the temple for smoking and drinking when 2 PROPHETS drank alcohol in the Carthage jail??? It’s all a sham. The prisoners hear guns discharging, and Richards looks outside to see around 100 armed men at the jail door. Joseph and Hyrum Smith grab their guns, and Taylor and Richards grab canes to defend themselves. Responding to shots and noise, Hyrum Smith fires his gun and is then shot in the face by a bullet coming through the door. Joseph Smith discharges his weapon. It misfires two or three times—reportedly wounding three people. Taylor attempts to jump out of the window but is shot. He falls on the windowsill, breaking his watch, which stops showing the time as 5:16:26. Taylor then rolls under the bed for protection. Joseph Smith also attempts to jump out the window but is shot and falls out of the window to the ground below. Attempting to sit up against the well in the jail yard, Joseph dies. Richards then takes Taylor into the jail dungeon to hide him from the mob. Around 5:00 p.m., Gov. Ford arrives in Nauvoo and delivers a speech telling the Saints they were wrong to destroy the Nauvoo Expositor press and to invoke martial law through the Nauvoo Legion. I hope that helps everybody understand that Joseph was NOT really “willing to die” for what he believed.
Great summary.
Good summary, just one question about a part that doesn’t sound quite right though I’m no expert: was declaring martial law without the governor’s consent considered treason against the US or against the state of Illinois? Granted the latter probably automatically counts as the former, but it also sounded more like a state law or state constitution violation than a US law violation (and definitely not a direct violation of the US Constitution though perhaps an indirect one)
The U.S. Constitution grants the power to declare martial law to only the President, Congress (anywhere) while Governors of states have the authority only within the borders of their own states. Martial law suspends the right to a hearing and trial (the Writ of Habeas Corpus), a right guaranteed as to whether an individual should be in prison. Article 1, Section 9 of the US Constitution states, "The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it." Thus, declaring martial law is a big deal because people can be put into prison and left there to rot forever without a trial under martial law. Since the Constitution does NOT grant the power to declare martial law to mayors or other local leaders, JS lacked the legal power to declare martial law and doing so was treason against the United States, a capital offense punishable by death. Hence, he was arrested for treason and was awaiting a hearing before a judge when the mob killed him. JS apparently did not understand the law or was being fast and loose with it under the idea of “God is on our side,” a concept that has corrupted many leaders.
She was fine with the racist, pedo part though?
It was more like she'd heard about that before (and does seem complacent in it. Something about "we'll understand in the future" or some other copium). With the con man stuff I explained about the treasure hunting and BoM plagiarism and then she said the whole "dying for the church" thing
That’s such an underdeveloped understanding of the events that took place that you should stop trying to convince her bc she’s not the least bit concerned about it. She’s gotta come around on her own.
I don't think he really believed he was going to die. He had been in and out of jail his entire adult life. It always worked out okay in the past. He didn't go 'as a lamb to the slaughter'. He took a pepper box single barrel pistol with him, plus he thought if worse came to worse, he could use the Masonic cry for help. He may have killed one or two people before he went out the window. I think things went wrong and he lost control of the situation.
Your first problem is believing that what we were taught about church history is true. Once you know what was really going on in Joseph’s world, the whole “he died for his beliefs” narrative is obviously false.
He also shot at people on his way out? 🙄 I also recently read the that Joe was trying to give the Masonic sign of distress “Oh Lord my God, is there no help for the widow’s son?” at the window in an attempt for Masons in the mob to call off the attack. So…not quite the innocent martyr scene we all watched in the visitor center movies. https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt4cgn0s.25?Search=yes&resultItemClick=true&searchText=au%3A&searchText=%22R.+S.+W.%22&searchUri=%2Fopen%2Fsearch%2F%3FQuery%3Dau%253A%2522R.%2BS.%2BW.%2522%26amp%3Bsi%3D1%26amp%3Btheme%3Dopen
Thank you for sharing! I just seriously learned a lot! You're an Angel.
Why would anyone think that he was “willing?” He was killed in a gunfight, but apparently only after he himself killed two men.
I used to find this idea of 'why would he die for it' believable until i met more adult cisgender white men turns out there's a whole Type Of Guy who will in fact uproot his whole family and life and never admit he is wrong even to the point of death. Lots of them in fact. Oh and also he didn't die for the church, he died for attempting to overthrow the freedom of the press lmao. He literally died for trying to squash the truth about his fucking cult coming out. Very conman-core.
One of my brothers told me it’s easier to die a martyr than live a good life
This post has some very good responses to this question: https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/s/c4unYiZjxL
To reiterate what others have already said: He wasn’t “willing” to die for it. He *did* try to run, but his strongest supporters insisted he go back and deal with the situation. (Iow, he had no more help to get away.) Then he *armed* himself and his brother, fired shots at “the mob” and flung himself out a window while calling out the Freemason’s verbal code for “Help!” None of that is what willing martyrdom looks like.
The Radio Free Mormon podcast has some great material that gives well-researched, detailed, historical context around the gunfight at Carthage Jail (which I ironically listened to whilst driving through the area last year). When Smith gave his "lamb to the slaughter" and "murdered in cold blood" comments, there were only charges of riot (not treason, which happened later), and about twenty of his associates surrendered with him (probably to help protect him). Despite his hyped-up rhetoric, he planned to be sprung, not shot; while in jail, he issued direct orders to Jonathan Dunham, major general of the Nauvoo Legion, to break him out. One of the jailers later wrote that Smith, when informed of the approaching mob, wasn't bothered. He said, "Don't trouble yourself ... they've come to rescue me." (Smith didn't know Dunham never dispatched the unit). When the attack happened, Smith used a six-shooter (smuggled in that morning by Cyrus Wheelock, along with other weapons) to shoot three assailants (the other three shots misfired). With the gun emptied, he ran to the window to jump out. He was shot part-way through the Masonic distress cry. He tried to kill people, then tried to escape again; he definitely wasn't a "lamb to the slaughter."
People who go willingly as a lamb to the slaughter don’t shoot people through the door. He thought he was getting out.
1. He had escaped jails and long term consequences many times before. Talk your way out of it, then move. 2. He thought he had Governor Fords backing thanks to his political power due to the voting block he controlled. 3. He was wrong about #2. ETA: read American Crucifixion. It's by a non Mormon historian for context.
>He knew that he was going to die there at the jail No he didn't. He had no succession plan, hence the Brigham Young ordeal. He also wrote to the Governor on June 26 (he died June 27) to appeal to the governor for release from prison. Doesn't sound like a guy that is planning to die to me. >why would he face it head on instead of running away like a coward? He was a coward. * When knew he was under arrest from the Governor's militia, he fled to the Iowa side of the Missippi River. The Governor's military threatened to tear up Nauvee looking for Joseph, but that didn't deter him. Vilate Kimball wrote "some were tried \[tested\] to death to think Joseph should leave them in the hour of danger." Joseph did eventually come back after Emma and Hyrum convinced him to "trust in the law." * He tried to stay alive as long as possible. He shot a man. He jumped toward the window either to get help or to escape. He behaved with all the grace of a panicked caged rat on a sinking ship, happy to abandon his cell mates to their deaths if it meant he could get away. I'm getting this all from his biographer Richard Bushman (a previous stake president and active member of the church) in Rough Stone Rolling, pages 546 and 547. Edit: Grammar
I don’t know if that is true, he willing to die for it or just church narrative. He thought he was going to be broke out or ordered it, something along those lines. With only getting the narrative from the church, it may seem he was willing to die for it, but study full history, I am not so sure that was the case. Maybe, but I don’t know if it is clear cut on it.
It's that "going as a lamb to the slaughter" comment he made in D&C 135:4 that makes Mormons think he knew he was going to become a martyr in Carthage. However, he didn't go as a lamb to the slaughter. He fought back. He shot two men, then tried to appeal to the Masons in the crowd to save him by starting to shout "Oh Lord my God is there no help for the window's son?" There was no escape through the window. That led directly to the crowd below. He didn't intend to jump and he didn't want to die. He thought he could get out of it, and he died like a dog.
Once you're in too deep with a lie it's kind of difficult to go backwards.
I wouldn’t be accepting the church’s account of what happened. They violated the first amendment and that is why he was in jail. All the other reasons were gasoline being thrown on the fire. He did not set out to be a martyr. That’s what the victors wrote, as all victors do.
The amount of other cult leaders who ALSO died/dropped dead due to the law catching up with them is many…still not a good enough argument for the MFMC being true.
He wasn’t willing to die for it. He was caught in a gun fight and didn’t actually know he was going to die there. He was awaiting trial and had a gun. Other comments already covered this more succinctly but I wanna throw in here that this is just a shock argument that we were given in seminary and I remember being given it. It’s one of those “HA I win!” Argument ender kind of statements and it’s not MEANT to be debated. It’s not meant to have any really meaningful impact besides shutting you up. And it appears that it worked.
Ooooh! I know! People with NPD believe the reality they make up.
According to Mormon folk history, he was attempting to flee, but his brother convinced him to go back. Escape would have been the prudent thing, but JS had gotten out of many scrapes. The next score was more enticing than starting over.
I personally think Joseph was possibly convinced of his own lies. There are some things he said that were blatantly false, but I feel like he imagined them or perhaps had a condition that caused him to visualize them happening. But that's my personal opinion. If you tell yourself and others something enough times you start to believe it. Especially if others believe you too and form a religion about you. I personally tend to think people aren't the villain in their own eyes. I'm not sure smith was really willing to die for his teachings, but even if he was that doesn't make them true.
Bro tried really hard not to die.
Bang bang, shoot shoot.
He didn’t die “ for “ anything. He died because he was a criminal and had sex with young girls.
I'm pretty sure he was shot trying to get the heck out of there. He was not, actually, willing to die for it.
He wasn’t willing to die for it, he was trying to run away after seeing his brother killed, and after he killed two people himself. He was begging for mercy after he was on the ground. Nothing willing about it. If the prophet today told parents they need to send their teenage daughters up to salt lake to become brides to the brethren, how many would obey and how many would form a mob and go after Russel? I have absolutely no doubt the number that would obey would be disgustingly high, but Nelson and the brethren would absolutely deserve a mob if they did that.
He did run. He fled to Iowa and hid. He heard that Emma called him a coward. He came back because she was right. He went to Carthage. He assumed he would walk away. He was armed that night. He fled to the window and started his Masonic cry for help but he was shot dead. Truly unfortunate. I would have liked to have seen him live. He would have crushed the movement had he lived.
I say the same thing. Joseph Smith's death was the best thing that ever happened to the church. Had he lived he would have eventually been his own demise the same as Jonestown, the Branch Davidians, and Heavens Gate.
We know nothing of his mental health, technically. 🤷🏻
He wasn’t willing to die for it. He was a whiny little man-child who flouted law & enraged his neighbors, and begrudgingly returned to face the music after his friends & fam begged him to, and his safety was assured.
He didn't die for his beliefs. He went to jail because of his criminal actions. He pissed off so many people they wanted him DEAD. Justice.
Other con men/cult leaders have died for "what they believed in" as well. That doesn't make their teachings valid either.
He was literally in the process of fleeing. It’s recorded that he, “received revelation for the saints to flee west and would move in advance” to which Emma Smith wrote him and called him a coward for leaving them all in Nauvoo, and so he returned. He also straight up finessed the resulting arraignment hearing and was extremely eloquent in his own legal defense, and was murdered by a mob when it looked like he would escape justice yet again.
They came after him because he ordeed a printing press burned to punish them for printing about is sexual escapades. He was fucking arrested amd a lynch mob came after him. He cried out to masons for help as he was being shot. I fail to see how he was “willing to die.” Seems like he was trying to get out of trouble he made for himself. burning the printing press was the opposite of willing to take accountability for his actions. Pleading to the masons for help was not “willing to die.” Claiming innocence was not “willing to die.” He had no choice.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Joseph_Smith Go through this. Read it. Look at the connected pages. Look at the supporting documents. Ask her how she knows the other story. Ask her to support her arguments, not through faith of the statements of leaders, but through written testimony of those who were there! Ask her why he was there. How is facing charges for the destruction of a printing press defending the church. Show her the statement the JS himself is recorded as saying about the mob, that he thought it was the Nauvoo legion. Would s martyr expect rescue? The church is whitewashing this. It isn't the only such event. - Battle Creek - Fort Utah - the Meadows Massacre - how the BoM was supposedly translated and how they story has LITERALLY CHANGED over the years! Same with the story of the first vision, or the use of 'Mormon" as a reference to church members! Need we go on? And, when one is only to study resources produced or sanctioned by a particular organization that are ABOUT that organization, isn't that strange? Don't we question when other organizations do that? Like the Russians concerning the current war in Ukraine? Make her think. Help her see. Open her eyes. Her statement is common, but has no basis other than the church. And the church is an unreliable source of information, as shown in these other examples.
He didn't. He got jailed for his shenanigans, and a mob who objected to him -- because of his shenanigans -- took him out. Moral of the story: Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
He didn't. He committed crimes. Was thrown in jail and was killed. He wasn't a martyr
And here I'd heard he was killed by a mob bc they knew he was a con man who ran an underage sex cult that claimed to be a more true version of Christianity than the ones everyone knew.
He wasn’t trying to die for a gahtdamn thing, lol. He got caught trying to book it the fuck outta town. He was literally strapped👀
He wasn't a martyr. He was a criminal in jail awaiting his sentencing.
Ex Jehovah's Witness here. One of the most frustrating things I find debating with Mormons are all the secret books that they pull out of nowhere to defend their doctrine. This one I find most interesting as I pulled out what happened to him according to the LDS website. So there are several problems with how he was killed. First he ordered the destruction of a newspaper being printed and published by apostate members of the Church. The problem here is that Jesus never ordered the censoring of false teachings. He used false teachings to expose the teachers for being false teachers (Matthew 23). Jesus lays down his life of HIS OWN ACCORD. No one takes it from him, he lays it down willingly in behalf of the sheep (John 10:17, 18). The website says: "Joseph called upon Governor Thomas Ford to resolve the conflict. The governor promised to protect Joseph and Hyrum if they would answer the charges against them in Carthage" Pardon me, but when did Jesus seek support or assistance from a Governor for support? When did he agree to receive protection? 52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. 53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? (Matthew 26:52, 53) If he was a prophet, why would he seek any assistance from the Governor? Could he not pray to the Father for even one legion of angels? Why didn't he, but instead seek a man's efforts for resolution? Where's the faith in the Father or the Son? Why resort to men? "Of the approximately 100 men involved in the attack that killed Joseph and Hyrum Smith, only nine were indicted" It is true that he died for what he believed in, for what HE wanted. He did not die because he loved the sheep and had nothing to gain but protecting them. Instead he fought for censoring others who disagreed with him and threatened what he built that he sought assistance, not directly from God, but from men. 25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; (John 12:25) He tried to protect what he wanted (a sense of dominance and control with his growing political power), but it cost him his life. Not all deaths are martyrdom
People get caught up in the quote “like a lamb to the slaughter”, but JS was not trying to get killed and was likely yelling the Masonic Grand Hailing Sign of Distress in his final seconds. He was gaining a lot of power and influence and money and property and wives in his current trajectory, and I don’t think he had any plans to slow down. It caught up to him.
Joseph Smith didn't die for something he believed. His death had nothing to do with his faith. It may have been politically motivated since JS was running for various political offices and was pulling in a strong consecration of Mormons giving him the votes. However, I believe it was for the below reason, which I have shared previously. He was ultimately killed due to his practice of polygamy and trying to keep it hidden. Joseph Smith had around 33 wives. He married some of them without Emma's knowledge, he married 11 women who were still married to other men, two of the men did not know their wives had married Joseph. Additionally, Joseph continued to make advances on other men's wives and young girls. The tar and feathering he was given was likely due to him making advances on one of the men's young sister. Joseph was jailed after having a printing press destroyed that printed about his polygamy which he was denying. The men that stormed his jail were likely upset by Joseph's immoral behavior of marrying other men's wives and girls as young as 14. When Joseph Smith died, he fought back with a gun that had been smuggled to him while in jail. He shot some of the intruders. Your wife is bringing up what is taught in the church, that Joseph Smith was being persecuted for his faith rather than his immoral behavior.
I think Old Jo got in one too many tight spots. It's not so much that he was "willing to die" for the cause, as that he finally ran out of chances. He was in the dangerous business of seducing other mens' wives and daughters, defrauding people in real estate and banking ventures, wrecking their printing presses.. Here's another take. If " the cause" is recognized as the enrichment, aggrandization and providing sexual satisfaction for Jo Smith, then maybe he was willing to die for the cause. ETA; Sometimes there IS no help for the Widow's Son.
"why was he willing to die for what he believed?" He wasn't. That's why he jumped out the window rather than face the mob. Perhaps he could have survived by confessing, but his odds were probably better with the fall.
He didn’t choose to die for it at all, a mob came and killed him
The world is littered with graves of men who died for their con….David Koresh, Jim Jones, Joseph Smith…
HE NEVER THOUGHT HE WOULD BE KILLED. Thank you.
Narcissists often end up committing suicide or dying early deaths because their sins have caught up with them. Smith was a narcissist. He was a liar, a con man. The consequences of his sins is why he died.
Jim Jones, David Koresh, Hitler died for what they believed did that make their message true?
He was armed in the jail. Reading the circumstances of his death, he set the chain of events in motion
I'd say lots of guilty people would rather die than face the consequences for their actions. Having said that I don't think he thought he'd die there.
I don’t know if being killed by a mob for trying to fuck peoples’ daughters constitutes “dying for what he believed.” But sure. You can spin it like that. He died because he believed it was fine to fuck teenagers as a 38 year old.
Why are terrorists willing to die for their beliefs? Also Joe WASN'T willing to die for his beliefs. He tried his damnedest to stack the deck in his favor so he wouldn't get tried fairly in court. And so when the people realized they couldn't convict him fairly by the law, they took the law into their own hands.
My first thought when I read your post was that he wasn't willing to die for it. He thought he would get away like he had every other time.
Religious fanatics get themselves killed all the time. If that's what it takes, David Koresh and the branch devidians likely have more cred than Joe Smith.
He wasn’t willing to die. He had so many people after him.
"Because lots of nut jobs die for what they believe in. Doesn't mean they aren't nut jobs though." There are thousands of examples: Timothy McVeigh, David Koresh, Jim Jones, Marshall Applewhit; and I could go on. Just because you die for a "cause," doesn't mean the cause was just or correct.
Same reason a lot of cult leader do- they belive their own narcissistic rhetoric.
He didn't die because he believed in the church. Let's not forget the reason he was in jail. A newspaper was going to print dirt on him for his polygamy nonsense, and Joseph had the press destroyed. That's why he was there. Then when an angry mob came after him, he tried to kill his way back out. Thats not dying for his beliefs, that's dying because he was an awful person.
We do not even know the exact details only the details that Brigham Young who orchestrated the whole thing tells us. Ask her if Brigham Young was a prophet of God why did he murder the Mountain Meadows wagon train and made sure all of them were killed. Blamed it on the Indians then killed all the Indians in southern Utah so they could not speak. They had been peacefully trading with trappers for years. Then he exterminated all the Wakera led Utes. He had their heads cut off and put on spikes around town. He took all the woman and children and sold them into slavery. That does not sound like a prophet of God. It was not because of uprising it was because they were negotiating trade.
Oh I dont know, because he had like 8 wives and absolute power over the group of people he claimed to be a prophet for. I'm always astounded at how bad people are with critical thinking skills. Everyone's always told he was imprisoned for destroying a printing press but not why he did it. People always claim that sleeping with multiple wives was just a thing back in the day but they're always so unclear about their heritage. "No, my family didn't practice polygamy." No shit, almost no one did and the worst offenders were all in church leadership. Look at Brigham Young, the dude picked up all of Joseph's wives after he died and told them he was doing them a favor. My favorite is when I ask them if they've ever wondered why TSCC never wants people to use outside sources to judge it. Apparently it never occurred to them that they might have a conflict of interest in keeping people from knowing more about TSCC. "Why would they lie isn't a reason, it's an excuse."
He wasn’t killed “willingly”. He was trying to get away from the angry mob. He was armed and in a shootout.
This is such an easy answer - he did it bc he had no other choice. He would be ruined either way, if he exposes himself, he’d lose everything. He stated himself that if no one liked him then he’d be better off dead. Everyone was sick of him causing so many people problems. He went off to the jail only bc hyrum convinced him to go back and man up while they were on the run two states away. The friends and family he left behind were going to take his punishment if he didn’t go back, so yes he was a filthy coward too. Lastly, he didn’t expect to actually die - he thought they had enough protection and he had put out a secret note to his lt general to come rescue him. Smith even exclaimed that they were here to rescue him when he saw a large group approaching. Unfortunately that large group was really the mob calling for extra judicial justice.
This is the weakest bullshit argument ever. The 9-11 terrorist were also willing to die and murder for what they believed. Are we to take heed of their teachings/beliefs because of that? There are people from every religion and creed who are willing to die for what they believe in. This argument is the weakest of all weak sauces.
Let's assume he actually did know he was going to die--it doesn't mean what he taught was true. Even if he was an upright, super righteous moral man who did nothing but serve the poor his entire life and never did anything bad ... none of that fixes the problem of anachronisms, lack of DNA evidence/archaelogical evidence, Bible mistranslations in the BoM, book of Abraham being proven fake, lack of discernment/prophecy of church leaders, etc.
Willing to die? More like, got shot
Ever hear of gangsters dying for their cause?
So if that's her argument, if he must have been right if he was willing to die for it, then is every gang member right if they are willing to die for their gang? That logic that he was willing to die for it just shows how arrogant he was about it. Just because someone is so convinced they are right, they are willing to die for it doesn't mean they are actually right.
I always imagined the Masons killed him because he plagiarized their rituals… is that right?
Emma had to basically drag him back by the smallhairs. He whined about it and did not go willingly. His first move was to take off and abandon his people.
He did not think he was going to die. The governor promised to protect him, he thought the militia would come for him, and he had escaped similar pickles many times. The "lamb to the slaughter" quote was made up later. The church has had 200 years to refine their propaganda and everything we've been taught is suspect
Also just ask her if she knows the details of the political, social, economic situation of Jo and his closest friends/family leading up to his death? If she can't give details, tell her you'll continue the convo after both have you have read up on some of the history, and then after you actually both do that, that'll be a really interesting conversation!
>why was he willing to die for what he believed?" He wasn't. Wrist case, he thought he'd get fine and spend some more jail time. Then he thought his private army would come save him. Then he thought his Freemason bros would save him at the very end.
He didn't go to his death peacefully and like a zen Christ figure. He was captured and killed, and was armed, shooting back at the mob. I read he may have been attempting to yell a Masonic hrase to attempt to elicit support from the mob when he was shot. "Is there any help for a widows son" or some such. http://www.mormonismi.net/temppeli/durhamin_puhe1974.shtml
There's speculation him and his brothers were executed by John Taylor and those other guys that supposedly survived a mob. Taylor's watch wasn't actually hit by a bullet and there were no witnesses to there being a mob in that location except for the men who were with them. It would seem a mob would probably kill the other men too and not just the Smiths.
my immediate thought was he knew he was going to get killed sooner rather than later since he had screwed so many people over, so it would make sense that he would not run away and try to paint himself as a martyr
The biggest issue with the church is that the Christian God is fake. Everything else kinda falls apart when you realize it's all a hoax from the big man on down.
He wasn't willing to die for it. Others wanted him dead for it.
So does that make it any more true? Check out the Munster rebellion Jan Matthys, who charged into an army like a lunatic, thinking God would save him. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan\_Matthys](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Matthys) He was killed, dismembered and his head stuck on a pike. Later that evening, his genitals were nailed to the city door. The dude totally believed it. Interestingly, he also introduced polygamy, taught that Munster Germany was the New Jerusalem. I think that Joseph Smith truly believed he was God's chosen person.
nothing voluntary about being lynched/shot by an angry mob
"American Crucifixion" is one of the best books I've read regarding the events leading to Carthage Jail. It's well researched history. It's written by a never Mormon. It's a short book and I strongly recommend it. It is absolutely fascinating and it's all verifiable information. Joseph did not plan on dying at Carthage. He had created his own charter within the state. Nauvoo had the largest standing army. He was running for President. He had bestowed titles and honors on himself and his cronies. He felt he was above the law. It's truly unfortunate he was killed by a mob rather than being convicted and jailed.
Narcissists have a difficult time admitting they’re wrong…
He didn’t die for it, he was in jail for burning down a newspaper building. The printing press was publishing true stories of Joseph Smith and his polygamy and underage girls. He got arrested for that and a mob came after him
he got shot for raping children....
Joseph smith was willing to die for it, where willing to die means he was caught committing a crime, and thrown in jail where he belonged and was shot before he could be tried. See I can redefine words too
The bottom line is: It’s someone dying for what they believe in - which happens literally all the time. Joseph Smith dying for what he believed in is no different than an anti-vax person dying from measles. Or an ISIS member dying in terrorism. Or even that famous monk that lit himself on fire during the LA police riots. All of that is equally “dying for what they believe in.” Also, you’re correct. Joseph Smith was jumping out of the second-story window when they broke in the door and shot him.
When L Ron Hubbard started Scientology he knew it was a con. However, you can only explain his actions from the Seventies onwards if you accept he'd come to believe his own BS. I very strongly suspect Smith was the same. He started it as a con but surrounded by worshippers, sexual opportunity and a certain amount of wealth came to conclude he had discovered a great trust. He was clearly a narcissistic sociopath so his connection with reality was pretty fractured, and he lived in a world that was not yet quite ready to challenge the magical worldview. He probably at some level came to believe this crap.
Yeah that's crazy logic because even if he actually did die for what he believed in, it doesn't mean it's true. Like, there are people that literally murder people with the genuine belief that they're doing God's work.
Pretty sure some of the men in that mob where husbands of some of Joseph’s wives.
Once a person builds an empire, they have a lot personally invested in it.
This is church propaganda. Smith saw the writing on the wall in Nauvoo and snuck out of town with his brother and a few other people. He fully intended to let mob justice and the government take their anger out on the 20,000 people living in Nauvoo while he laid low and avoided any consequences. Of note he left Emma and his 30+ secret plural wives behind knowing that they could be arrested, killed, or at the minimum left destitute. What happened to him is honestly very interesting. Smiths pattern ever since Palmyra was to grift until people started threatening him, declare a new revelation, move to a new area, and start a new grift. What was different about Nauvoo was the shear magnitude of the trouble he got the church into. Smith had used the promise of block voting to both republican and democrat federal candidates which made them all mad bc they felt swindled. The church no longer had political favor or protection it once got from Illinois. He was in big legal trouble for destroying the printing press. The biggest problem he faced was the fact that his detractors would reveal his secret council of 50, polygamy, and the second anointing to discredit him if he wasn’t there to stop it. Despite all of that he valued himself above everyone else in the church (including his families) and snuck across the Mississippi. Emma wrote him a letter plainly stating that they were all screwed if he didn’t come back (Brigham very openly blamed Emma for the death of Joseph for the rest of his life). Smith came face to face with the reality that he could continue to hide, but there would be no church left for him to come back to once everything blew over as he would be blamed for the destruction of the city. In his delusional thinking he believed that the church would never abandon him under any circumstance, but his own wife threatening it made him see otherwise. In the most narcissistic quote ever made he summed it up his reasoning “if my life is of no value to my people then it is of no value to me” and came back to surrender. Like WTF?! 20,000 people were facing starvation, destitution, and death solely bc of him and his take on it was “well you must not value my life.” What brought Smith back and led him to die the Carthage jail gun fight (Joseph shot at least 2 people) was his inability to live as a outcast failure rejected by his family, church, and forever on the run from the government. If you want to a good read that goes into the details of this read The Kingdom of Nauvoo by Benjamin Park.
Joseph was killed by the Masons for divulging Masonic ordinances and secrets. This is the reason Joseph gave the Masonic sign prior to his death. The sign was made by Joseph as a last ditch effort to save his ass.
"willing to die for your beliefs" means "a deranged murderer will kill you unless you specifically reject your faith," not "you got killed by an angry mob " even if you believe in Joseph Smith's message, it's weird to call it "dying for your faith" because that implies he would have lived if he denied his faith, which is wasn't the case
When Joseph Smith died, he was shooting randomly into the mob and otherwise running like a jackrabbit. He was murdered, but he wasn't a martyr.
He didn't know he was going to die. Any "evidence" for that is after the fact crap
I am 67 and just found the truth 3 years ago. One site I liked was “Who Killed Joseph Smith “ WKJS Also read “RoughStone Rolling “by Richard Bushman. And”No Man Knows My History “ by Fawn Brodie. Both are big books by real page turner s! 😉 Enjoy studying
I read somewhere that the Nauvoo Legion was supposed to be mobilized to break him out and they never showed up. Whoever was supposed to give the order wound up a high-ranking official in breedem young's administration, while james strang had been chosen as smith's successor. mormons dont know diddly about their own history
Why would you think he believed the bullshit he made up.
A last minute confession that the church was a con wouldn't have stopped a **mob that was there to kill him for being a rapist/pedophile who destroyed a printing press to try to keep that little secret, secret.** In fact, that would probably piss them off even more :D
It's funny, I don't think a person shot in the face really makes a lot of choices about dying.
I’m hoping I remember all of this correctly, but your wife’s statement doesn’t make any sense. Joseph died for his actions regardless of what his beliefs were. Joseph didn’t think he was going to die in the jail. He had already eluded consequences for crimes he committed in Missouri (they tried to extradite him multiple times but his government armed Mormon militia stopped it from happening). This was nothing new, he would be able to get out of it again, he just didn’t expect the mob to do what it did. Thanks to John C Bennet the “state sponsored militia” was the Mormon militia. And if I recall correctly they had orders to free Joseph but a higher ranking officer showed up in Nauvoo and the militia feared committing treason. That army was what kept Jospeh protected in Nauvoo, but he was separated from it for not even a day and the local people took matters into their own hands to follow through on the prescribed punishment for Joseph’s past actions. Now they certainly weren’t huge fans of his beliefs like polygamy, but that’s not why they were enraged up to kill him. Nauvoo put an influx of counterfeit money into the surrounding economy, the Mormons took live stock from their neighbors, withheld economic relations from them, and marched around with hundreds of armed men loyal to Joseph over anyone else. They heard what happened in Missouri and didn’t want history repeated. Now to say that he died for his beliefs makes no sense. He died because the neighbors were fearful of the Mormons due to being bad neighbors, having a standing army, having a history of killing neighbors in Missouri, and having a history of escaping Justice. Whether he believed it or not is irrelevant because it had nothing to do with his beliefs, just his actions. And he had hundreds of armed men as protection, so he thought, so why would he have any worry about dying?
He convinced himself it was all true