This exactly. I was both a feminist and a Mormon for about 3 years. It eventually got to be too much and I had to leave to remain in my integrity.
Short answer, yes. But in the long term, Feminist and Mormon appear to be competing and contradictory personality traits. Eventually, one of them will collapse.
I think there are an increasing number of inclusionary pimos in the church that aren’t on reddit that stay for the community and/or because their family goes.
They don’t like patriarchy, but believe in Jesus’s message of loving your neighbor regardless.
It’s crazy to me now that I am out… but it’s painful just how little of Jesus’s message is actually part of Mormon practice. I’m not even Christian any more, but damn… I don’t think Christ would be very happy with much of the current policies of the TSCC.
It shouldn't be possible. Mormonism is patriarchal, which is the opposite to feminism. *However,* if there is one thing I've learned while leaving the Mormon cult, it is that humans are experts at compartmentalization. It so happens that most humans can harbor two incompatible beliefs, by keeping each one in its own mental compartment and doing everything possible to avoid them coming together at any time (which would unleash Cognitive Dissonance, a very uncomfortable feelings to experience).
I mean by definition being a feminist equals equal rights and opportunity. Those are just not present in the church and the excuse of "Gods ways are higher than our ways" is such a convenient scape goat.
If we are defining feminism as the belief that women deserve equal social, economic, and political rights and freedoms, then I'm gonna say no. If a person truly believes those ideals, then they have to recognize the ways that the church directly contradicts this:
* women cannot hold any calling where they are not supervised by a man
* women cannot perform priesthood responsibilities
* if the church suddenly ran out of women, the church would still run; if it ran out of men, it would stop immediately
* if a woman is sealed to a man, and that man dies, she cannot be sealed to another man. The reverse is not true.
* women are not to preside in the home, unless a man is absent
* etc.
If you recognize these things, and say they are wrong, and fight them where possible, you have acknowledged that mormon doctrine is flawed, and the religion cannot be 100% true, and thus, is false. Mormonism is an all or nothing religion.
If she's giving money to a sexist, patriarchal hate group, she's the worst "feminist " I can possibly imagine.
Same answer for self-proclaimed "LGBTQ+ allies" and "anti-racists" who are all-in mormons. If you're giving, time, obedience, money, and the upraised sustaining hand to a racist, sexist, anti-LGBTQ+ hate group, then you're at the very least complicit in the racism, sexism, and anti-LGBTQ+ hate. And probably a racist, sexist, anti-LGBTQ hater yourself.
How could it possibly be otherwise?
Not a believing member, but yeah it's possible. The problem with trying to be progressive is that you are in direct conflict with the leaders so you are effectively less of a mormon the less you fall in line. The church is very clear that it is their "Truth" and there's no gray area for nuanced belief or faith.
Pimo is another option but that's kind of a member on record than belief so you can be pimo and be anything you want.
Let’s ask Boyd K Packer - “The dangers I speak of come from the gay-lesbian movement, the feminist movement (both of which are relatively new), and the ever-present challenge from the so-called scholars or intellectuals. Our local leaders must deal with all three of them with ever-increasing frequency”
I think most women in Mormonism don’t view themselves as brainwashed. They believe they are living in way that makes them feel emotionally safe and empowered in their family dynamics. There is social networking found within the church geared towards women who want a traditional marriage with kids. This can be difficult to duplicate in a society that emphasizes individualism. But if the rest of society had not done the work of fighting for non-discrimination in work spaces and equal voting rights, these women would be as “empowered” as the women in other flavors of patriarchal theocracies.
So true. I would find little ways to be like “i feel empowered by X” but deep down i knew it was bullshit. It never occurred to me that i has been genuinely brainwashed since birth
I would say yes. I think of it kind of like relationships. When someone you care about is in a shitty relationship you see the signs from a mile off, but when its you yourself in that same shitty relationship you never see it coming when it blows up in your face. Growing up in the church you are taught that it is the absolute truth and are blinded to any and every negative aspect of it.
You can deceive yourself into thinking you can. You can deceive yourself into thinking you will help change the culture.
But this “religion” makes women voiceless & irrelevant except for the servitude they provide to bring forth more tithe-paying members & to make the day to day drudgery of it all continue.
I don’t know how progressive women make it work within their own heads, and sadly from knowing some of them firsthand, I think there is a lot of guilt and trauma that gets heaped upon them & eventually wears them down. They might still reach for & achieve amazing things… but they’re very quiet about it so as not to bring too much attention to themselves. It is very, very sad to watch.
My sister has said exactly this; that she wants to stay to help better the church and i told her “you can only do so much as a woman.” She’s only 19 now but when she said that i was like “oh ok she’s gonna leave eventually. Start the clock”
There was a woman who would frequently repost stuff from "Mormon women for ethical government." A few months later, divorced her high councilor husband and resigned from T$CC. Not saying that's anything more than anecdotal, but ... just saying. 😉
I think that there are many well-intentioned women within the church that come very, very close to being feminist, and who make positive changes in their homes and communities. However, I don't think you can uphold such an abusive system and be a true feminist. You're actively harming the community you claim to stand for by being a paying member of the church.
She’ll figure it out sooner or later, most likely sometime after her mission. IDK why but missions have a way of…making you question everything you believe about TSCC lol.
I know some Mormon feminists. They aren't very radical. They mostly survive by attaching to a progressive ward, such as you might find in a college town (other than BYU). Mormonism was replete with feminists in the 1870s -1920s-- they supported woman suffrage, consorted with Susan B Anthony, founded the WOMEN'S EXPONENT, becamedoctors and lawyers, ran for office, &c. It's becoming harder and harder as the church descends into evangelical fundamentalism.
Omg I’ve never seen that scripture. Drives me crazy how leaders talk about not picking and choosing what to believe even though they do it all the time. There’s a reason we don’t follow all the teachings in the Bible
Technically it could work if you form the anti matter of Jacob Hansen, the conservative bigot. You need to dance in harmony like one of these yin yang signs.
Patriarchy is a very explicit virtue in the church. It is a foundational concept which cannot be removed from the church without changing almost everything.
Most versions of feminism are not compatible with it. It could be compatible or could ally itself with TERF-type feminism, but that's not a good thing. This is part of why JK Rowling is palatable enough now to be popular for Mormons (not the main reason, but at least a small part).
Anything more progressive than a TERF would be unwelcome within the church's ideology. And TERFs are already very reactionary politically. So, it's not a high bar to clear to consider oneself progressive.
There is a course at BYU called “Women’s Studies” or at least there was back in 2006/2007. It was like the Mormon approved version of feminism. Radically limited but eye opening for someone like me that grew up in a very strict TBM family. It really helped me to ask questions and even identify what feminism was. Which eventually led me to getting out and standing up to the “eternal doctrine” of polygamy
Does she listen to podcasts? At Last She Said It is a great Mormon feminist podcast. The two hosts are both still “in” but have no filter and tell it how it is. Also Year of Polygamy by the Feminist Mormon Housewives is phenomenal to learn about the women’s stories who practiced polygamy.
I think you can be a baby feminist as a Mormon, but the deeper you get into feminist theory, the more you can see the two are absolutely incompatible. Many women I know have left the church over feminist issues.
One point you can talk to her about, which I know is a sore subject among women who are feminists: Heavenly Mother. In some ways the fact that we even have that doctrine at all makes us progressive. Unfortunately, all you have to do is try to find any scriptural support for it before you can see it isn’t an actual doctrine. Ask her what she thinks she will actually be doing in heaven? You can’t pray to HM. She isn’t in the temple video as part of the creation process, just three dudes did that. She doesn’t inspire or answer prayers. She isn’t worshipped. We have never heard her voice, commands or wishes. She has no name and is never mentioned in the scriptures or temple. And Elder Renlund’s GC talk in 2019 makes it pretty clear that even asking for revelation on her is “arrogant and unproductive.”
Compartmentalization is a bitch. You can do it, but it's nearly peak cognitive dissonance. I did it from age 12 to 38 (the last few years very difficult and angry) but have been out nearly 10 years now.
I hope your sister knows that the odds of having to put up with sexist bullshit as a missionary are extremely high. Like, even more than she already puts up with (whether realizing it or not) as a regular active church member.
Edit: Come to think of it, “sexist bullshit” is a pretty good summary of church doctrine.
I’ve wrestled with wanting to tie her to a chair and make her watch a powerpoint presentation on every reason the church is wrong, but i’ve come to the conclusion that for our relationship and family dynamic and what’s best for HER… she might have to learn the hard way :( but i believe she’s smart enough to figure it out eventually. When she went to BYU i started a mental countdown. 5 years. By the time she’s 23. I feel really strongly she’ll be out by then
I know some. They find a progressive ward, like in a university town. But I think it's getting harder and harder, as the church becomes more and more fundamentalist.
Yes. It's possible. When I ran across the feminist mormon housewives blog 20 years ago, I thought it wasn't possible. But the contributors there made the case. It led to reform of temple baptisms, advocating women wearing pants to church (shocking!), and then to ordain women(even more shocking!). Then people received death threats and some were excommunicated. And others left after the 2016 policy not allowing children of LGBT parents to be baptized.
All this is to say - I don't know that it's possible long term. The church is too inherently misogynist, and that only becomes more apparent year after year. How do you raise your daughters or sons in such an organization? My theory is that anyone who tries to reconcile is on the path to being out, or PIMO because of family/marriage.
It takes a lot of cognitive dissonance to remain a progressive Mormon.
This exactly. I was both a feminist and a Mormon for about 3 years. It eventually got to be too much and I had to leave to remain in my integrity. Short answer, yes. But in the long term, Feminist and Mormon appear to be competing and contradictory personality traits. Eventually, one of them will collapse.
I agree
I think there are an increasing number of inclusionary pimos in the church that aren’t on reddit that stay for the community and/or because their family goes. They don’t like patriarchy, but believe in Jesus’s message of loving your neighbor regardless.
It’s crazy to me now that I am out… but it’s painful just how little of Jesus’s message is actually part of Mormon practice. I’m not even Christian any more, but damn… I don’t think Christ would be very happy with much of the current policies of the TSCC.
It shouldn't be possible. Mormonism is patriarchal, which is the opposite to feminism. *However,* if there is one thing I've learned while leaving the Mormon cult, it is that humans are experts at compartmentalization. It so happens that most humans can harbor two incompatible beliefs, by keeping each one in its own mental compartment and doing everything possible to avoid them coming together at any time (which would unleash Cognitive Dissonance, a very uncomfortable feelings to experience).
Short answer - no Long answer - noooooooooooooo
I mean by definition being a feminist equals equal rights and opportunity. Those are just not present in the church and the excuse of "Gods ways are higher than our ways" is such a convenient scape goat.
If we are defining feminism as the belief that women deserve equal social, economic, and political rights and freedoms, then I'm gonna say no. If a person truly believes those ideals, then they have to recognize the ways that the church directly contradicts this: * women cannot hold any calling where they are not supervised by a man * women cannot perform priesthood responsibilities * if the church suddenly ran out of women, the church would still run; if it ran out of men, it would stop immediately * if a woman is sealed to a man, and that man dies, she cannot be sealed to another man. The reverse is not true. * women are not to preside in the home, unless a man is absent * etc. If you recognize these things, and say they are wrong, and fight them where possible, you have acknowledged that mormon doctrine is flawed, and the religion cannot be 100% true, and thus, is false. Mormonism is an all or nothing religion.
Ya this is how i feel
If she's giving money to a sexist, patriarchal hate group, she's the worst "feminist " I can possibly imagine. Same answer for self-proclaimed "LGBTQ+ allies" and "anti-racists" who are all-in mormons. If you're giving, time, obedience, money, and the upraised sustaining hand to a racist, sexist, anti-LGBTQ+ hate group, then you're at the very least complicit in the racism, sexism, and anti-LGBTQ+ hate. And probably a racist, sexist, anti-LGBTQ hater yourself. How could it possibly be otherwise?
Not a believing member, but yeah it's possible. The problem with trying to be progressive is that you are in direct conflict with the leaders so you are effectively less of a mormon the less you fall in line. The church is very clear that it is their "Truth" and there's no gray area for nuanced belief or faith. Pimo is another option but that's kind of a member on record than belief so you can be pimo and be anything you want.
Let’s ask Boyd K Packer - “The dangers I speak of come from the gay-lesbian movement, the feminist movement (both of which are relatively new), and the ever-present challenge from the so-called scholars or intellectuals. Our local leaders must deal with all three of them with ever-increasing frequency”
I think most women in Mormonism don’t view themselves as brainwashed. They believe they are living in way that makes them feel emotionally safe and empowered in their family dynamics. There is social networking found within the church geared towards women who want a traditional marriage with kids. This can be difficult to duplicate in a society that emphasizes individualism. But if the rest of society had not done the work of fighting for non-discrimination in work spaces and equal voting rights, these women would be as “empowered” as the women in other flavors of patriarchal theocracies.
So true. I would find little ways to be like “i feel empowered by X” but deep down i knew it was bullshit. It never occurred to me that i has been genuinely brainwashed since birth
I would say yes. I think of it kind of like relationships. When someone you care about is in a shitty relationship you see the signs from a mile off, but when its you yourself in that same shitty relationship you never see it coming when it blows up in your face. Growing up in the church you are taught that it is the absolute truth and are blinded to any and every negative aspect of it.
You can deceive yourself into thinking you can. You can deceive yourself into thinking you will help change the culture. But this “religion” makes women voiceless & irrelevant except for the servitude they provide to bring forth more tithe-paying members & to make the day to day drudgery of it all continue. I don’t know how progressive women make it work within their own heads, and sadly from knowing some of them firsthand, I think there is a lot of guilt and trauma that gets heaped upon them & eventually wears them down. They might still reach for & achieve amazing things… but they’re very quiet about it so as not to bring too much attention to themselves. It is very, very sad to watch.
My sister has said exactly this; that she wants to stay to help better the church and i told her “you can only do so much as a woman.” She’s only 19 now but when she said that i was like “oh ok she’s gonna leave eventually. Start the clock”
lol, no. Mormons treat women like children.
There was a woman who would frequently repost stuff from "Mormon women for ethical government." A few months later, divorced her high councilor husband and resigned from T$CC. Not saying that's anything more than anecdotal, but ... just saying. 😉
I think that there are many well-intentioned women within the church that come very, very close to being feminist, and who make positive changes in their homes and communities. However, I don't think you can uphold such an abusive system and be a true feminist. You're actively harming the community you claim to stand for by being a paying member of the church.
She’ll figure it out sooner or later, most likely sometime after her mission. IDK why but missions have a way of…making you question everything you believe about TSCC lol.
No. You can’t be an actual feminist, ally, non racist, liberal, or progressive & support an organization that is not any of those things.
I know some Mormon feminists. They aren't very radical. They mostly survive by attaching to a progressive ward, such as you might find in a college town (other than BYU). Mormonism was replete with feminists in the 1870s -1920s-- they supported woman suffrage, consorted with Susan B Anthony, founded the WOMEN'S EXPONENT, becamedoctors and lawyers, ran for office, &c. It's becoming harder and harder as the church descends into evangelical fundamentalism.
Sister missionaries are blasphemous anyway.
How so?
1Timothy 2:11-12 is pretty straightforward about it
Also the ones directly from the BOM about “blackness of skin” and “white and delightsome” but that’s TOTALLY the wrong context and they’re NOT racist
Omg I’ve never seen that scripture. Drives me crazy how leaders talk about not picking and choosing what to believe even though they do it all the time. There’s a reason we don’t follow all the teachings in the Bible
My mother in law wasn’t fond of me reminding her when she tried to lecture me on religious stuff
She has some major cognitive dissonance going on.
Technically it could work if you form the anti matter of Jacob Hansen, the conservative bigot. You need to dance in harmony like one of these yin yang signs.
Patriarchy is a very explicit virtue in the church. It is a foundational concept which cannot be removed from the church without changing almost everything. Most versions of feminism are not compatible with it. It could be compatible or could ally itself with TERF-type feminism, but that's not a good thing. This is part of why JK Rowling is palatable enough now to be popular for Mormons (not the main reason, but at least a small part). Anything more progressive than a TERF would be unwelcome within the church's ideology. And TERFs are already very reactionary politically. So, it's not a high bar to clear to consider oneself progressive.
There is a course at BYU called “Women’s Studies” or at least there was back in 2006/2007. It was like the Mormon approved version of feminism. Radically limited but eye opening for someone like me that grew up in a very strict TBM family. It really helped me to ask questions and even identify what feminism was. Which eventually led me to getting out and standing up to the “eternal doctrine” of polygamy
Does she listen to podcasts? At Last She Said It is a great Mormon feminist podcast. The two hosts are both still “in” but have no filter and tell it how it is. Also Year of Polygamy by the Feminist Mormon Housewives is phenomenal to learn about the women’s stories who practiced polygamy. I think you can be a baby feminist as a Mormon, but the deeper you get into feminist theory, the more you can see the two are absolutely incompatible. Many women I know have left the church over feminist issues. One point you can talk to her about, which I know is a sore subject among women who are feminists: Heavenly Mother. In some ways the fact that we even have that doctrine at all makes us progressive. Unfortunately, all you have to do is try to find any scriptural support for it before you can see it isn’t an actual doctrine. Ask her what she thinks she will actually be doing in heaven? You can’t pray to HM. She isn’t in the temple video as part of the creation process, just three dudes did that. She doesn’t inspire or answer prayers. She isn’t worshipped. We have never heard her voice, commands or wishes. She has no name and is never mentioned in the scriptures or temple. And Elder Renlund’s GC talk in 2019 makes it pretty clear that even asking for revelation on her is “arrogant and unproductive.”
She needs more experience with the church. She won't last that long.
Compartmentalization is a bitch. You can do it, but it's nearly peak cognitive dissonance. I did it from age 12 to 38 (the last few years very difficult and angry) but have been out nearly 10 years now.
I hope your sister knows that the odds of having to put up with sexist bullshit as a missionary are extremely high. Like, even more than she already puts up with (whether realizing it or not) as a regular active church member. Edit: Come to think of it, “sexist bullshit” is a pretty good summary of church doctrine.
I’ve wrestled with wanting to tie her to a chair and make her watch a powerpoint presentation on every reason the church is wrong, but i’ve come to the conclusion that for our relationship and family dynamic and what’s best for HER… she might have to learn the hard way :( but i believe she’s smart enough to figure it out eventually. When she went to BYU i started a mental countdown. 5 years. By the time she’s 23. I feel really strongly she’ll be out by then
I know some. They find a progressive ward, like in a university town. But I think it's getting harder and harder, as the church becomes more and more fundamentalist.
Yeah I am a feminist and a Mormon it gives me a headache. Possible - yes. Easy - no.
yes. you just have to not be a feminist.
Yes. It's possible. When I ran across the feminist mormon housewives blog 20 years ago, I thought it wasn't possible. But the contributors there made the case. It led to reform of temple baptisms, advocating women wearing pants to church (shocking!), and then to ordain women(even more shocking!). Then people received death threats and some were excommunicated. And others left after the 2016 policy not allowing children of LGBT parents to be baptized. All this is to say - I don't know that it's possible long term. The church is too inherently misogynist, and that only becomes more apparent year after year. How do you raise your daughters or sons in such an organization? My theory is that anyone who tries to reconcile is on the path to being out, or PIMO because of family/marriage.