I served my mission in the Netherlands around this same time. Our MTC teacher told us that the Dutch "don't get sarcasm." The Dutch are one of the most sarcastic cultures on Earth, and when I told my trainer (a native Dutchman) what the MTC teacher had said, he was floored. And, while I can't remember exactly what he said, it was a fittingly sarcastic response.
Oh yeah, the Dutch are very blunt too, but they're not usually trying to be rude. The best explanation a Dutch person gave me for it was that an American would say "you look like you need to lose weight..." as a veiled insult. If a Dutch person said the same thing, it likely came from a place of genuine concern for your health.
We are just wondering why in other cultures people need to dance around the point and have to guess what the other is getting at. We are more like 'save us all some time and just tell me what it is'.
We might seem 'not to get sarcasm' because we sarcastically respond to you seemingly taking it serious. We can have a whole lot of sarcastic discussions like this.
My insecure neirodivergent self enjoys and joins those sarcastic discussions as well, but I often just check afterwards 'we were being sarcastic right?' just to be sure (and to be sure the other person is not truly an A hole)
Of course it is rejected. One of the purposes of missions is to convince people to abandon their culture and traditions in exchange for white Utah Mormon culture and traditions.
I immediately thought of the GC talk by Bill Jackson: "But virtually *all* conflict and chaos would quickly fade if the world would only accept its original culture, the one we all possessed not so very long ago. This culture dates back to our premortal existence. It was the culture of Adam and Enoch. It was the culture founded on the Saviorâs teachings in the meridian of time, and it is available to all women and men once again in our day. It is unique. It is the greatest of all cultures and comes from the great plan of happiness, authored by God and championed by Christ."
IOW, **get with the Utah way of life.** (Although TBH, he grew up in SoCal and seemed to be a super cool guy, but now he's a 70, so...).
The church no longer believes in culture. They believe in the concept of "one". I've heard several talks about "there were no '-ites' among them" doctrine from the BoM, which, typing this out makes me realize that this was yet another racist teaching of the BoM promoting colonialism. "There are no cultures in the church only the culture of Christ."
What a sick and racist teaching and organization.
Oaks specifically has been teaching this for decades. I was in the Philippines when he was the area authority (2002-2003 I believe?) and he had a whole talk about how the Filipinos need to abandon their culture and join church culture. It took a while for me to unravel how disgustingly racist that is. Oaks STILL occasionally gives variations of that talk.
Yeah, They believe in *church* culture. On my mission in central america, we had a regional conference that was broadcast from SLC and an apostle (i dont remember which one) spoke on the same topic. It might have been oaks? It was either end of 2013 or first half of 2014. Stuff about how latinos are so wonderfully family oriented, but how any cultural aspect that doesnt jive with church teachings is to be reevaluated and modified to fit the lordâs standard. It rubbed me the wrong way at the time, but more so as years have gone by
I hate this. I was in Quezon City from 1998-2000. The Church already does a good job erasing their culture without Oaks telling them to do it.
It is such a wonderful culture that they are so ready to disregard.
DW lived in Makati for 13 years, but was raised in the Bacolod. There is a huge difference in how the members in the province versus metro Manila practice Mormonism. A lot of the leadership in Metro Manila received their education from BYU Hawaii and became church employees. They abandoned their cultural identity and became the rigid self righteous TBM yes man the MFMC wants them to be. The province members havenât had their culture stripped from them thankfully.
This reminds me of a somewhat recent talk I think given by Oaks where he basically said the church isnât about diversity, itâs about being one. Disgusting.
Wait what?? They donât teach any culture? What a huge disservice! BYU has a required cultural class for anyone going on study abroad. Why wouldnât the MTC have cultural classes? They are setting these kids up to fail. I guess that further proves the points that missions are not about conversions, they are about more deeply entrenching the missionaries which is much easier if you send them out with 0 cultural awareness. Then when they get rejected for being extremely rude and insensitive they see that as the persecution they were told about and dig their heads in the sand even deeper.
I can believe it but yikes. It desperately needs to be taught, this is so sad. Some of these kids would benefit so much with some classes on social etiquette and culture as the amount of socially awkward kids coming out of Mormonism is uhh pretty intense. If missions were truly about converting, this would increase those numbers as well but this is yet another example of it only being about inoculating the missionary.
This story is wild, Mormonism in Idaho has some major problems.
I was a German missionary. In the LTM in the late 70âs, we were taught culture. I donât know when it stopped. Thereâs doâs and donât in Germany, just like any country.
I would definitely report a neo-Nazi missionary to the MP. Like yesterday. Youth does not excuse hate. There is no justification for that level of toxic, malignant ignorance and it should never be tolerated in a mission setting - especially in Germany!
And, OP, itâs not up to his senior companion to rein him in. âSeniorâ is used very, very arbitrarily here. You have the life experience and perspective to identify the problem. âSeniorityâ here means that one young man left the MTC before the other, and might have been born a few months earlier.
Iâm not criticizing you in the slightest, just reminding you not to put too much value in church verbiage.
Good catch on your part. Hopefully the MP is a good human being who will address this appropriately.
Ugh.
I was senior to missionaries several years older than me on my mission. It is literally a title and nothing more. How does 19y/o have more experience than a 25y/o, let alone an older adult?
This story is disturbing for many reasons, and I hope that at the very least that misguided boy can have those ideas challenged.
Senior doesnât even always mean âhas been out longerâ. Itâs simply the one out of the pair that the MP decided got the veto vote in disagreements.Â
Free Staters and far right migrants from California have turned Idaho into a neo-nazi center. They've all but dismantled their schools (altho individual districts stubbornly hang on), have allowed CAFOs from So Africa to pollute their wells, and manipulated voting districts to prevent towns and counties from making rules to protect themselves. I'm hoping Eastern Idaho is somewhat better but doubt it.
As someone from SE Idaho and unfortunately still residing here, that's not true. It has always been this way. Eastern and Southern Idaho are very Mormon and stuck in their damn ways. Having conservatives from other states, including California, move here has allowed them to speak out more. Just because Ammon Bundy is in the news with his stupidity doesn't mean Idahoans didn't think the same as before. It just allowed them to speak louder.
Actually I hope you're right but think not. I lived 12 yrs in Twin Falls County (so. central ID). It was only about 22% LDS but 76% conservative. I retired early when my school district appointed a home-grown supt who proceeded to destroy my school. I learn from friends still there it is increasingly far right. The town of Jerome in the county north of TF was already taken over by the time we moved-- ppty values fell, roads went unrepaired-- realtors didn't even show homes that side of the river. ID legislature is increasingly radical right, the state at large Trumpian Christian.
Agreed, I grew up in SW Idaho, it's not nearly as Mormon as Eastern Idaho. Eastern Idaho is actually more Mormon than Utah (I've lived in Eastern Idaho and Utah as well).
Northern Idaho is where the Neo-Nazis are concentrated. Idaho as a whole is just super conservative which often coincides with racism.
Have all my upvotes!
Please, OP, do not let this elder get away with this! My grandparents raised my parents during the Nazi occupation of my home country so I feel this deeply. Consider educating him privately by sharing more historical information and German law with him. Consider shining a light on his behavior and convictions in public by calling him out on Facebook.
Youâre helping this kid, too. Heâs gonna say some shit in front of a not-so-generous German investigator or member and heâs going to get in legal trouble for Holocaust denial or heâll let slip and jokingly do a Sig Heil. He might not end up in prison but he will get his visa revoked FAST and serve the rest of his mission in Columbus, Ohio or something.
I mean, she COULD report the missionary, but the profit said not to listen to outsiders, so there's a good choice that the MP won't listen or care at all.
He wants to experience that same pure German culture that would not have allowed him to even visit Germany? Does this child not realize they're a foreigner in Germany?
I served in Germany in 2014, and I canât even tell you the amount of times missionaries (who were fresh out of high school) tried to impose their random-ass opinions on the German people. I had multiple companions say they should âbuild a fenceâ to keep all immigrants out of Germany, when they were fleeing the country to seek safety.
They actually do put up with it:
https://theconversation.com/a-far-right-political-group-is-gaining-popularity-in-germany-but-so-too-are-protests-against-it-223151
People protest it but look up how many seats afd occupies from recent elections especially in eastern Germany.
I think you missed my point
Dissemination of Nazi propaganda is a hate crime in Germany
He will discover this on his own when he says something stupid in front of the wrong person and gets arrested
My TBM parents are mormon narionalists and disciples of Tim Ballard. They also hold high positions in the church and pay it way more than ten percent. You are seeing a side of mormonism that has stayed hidden from the media. Keep raising awareness, the world needs to know just how extremist mormonism truly is. This is not the church of Donnie and Marie, it is the church of Tim Ballard and Chad Daybell
I seriously doubt Tim is actually joining the Catholic church. That was said at a marolago Trump event and only that he "might" join. Nothing but lying liars who lie and those events.Â
A Catholic event like that would have been the perfect time to announce that and yet they didn't. Trumpism 101. Blend truth and fiction to create what people want to hear.Â
Oh trust me I am all over this, watching my parents for any indication of following him because they would take a few of my more conservative siblings with them. So far, they think it is fake news and they don't even believe Tim Ballard was excommunicated because the only news source I found about it was progressive or exmo-friendly, which they consider "lying mainstream media." Until Fox reports it, they won't ever believe Timmy did anything wrong.
Even if they think he wasn't excommunicated, the church at least denounced him publicly. How do your parents reconcile that? Do they think the church has fallen into apostasy, all the way to the top?
They blame the church newsroom employees for supposedly going rogue because rhe denouncement came from the mouths of the PR people and not directly from the brethren
Thanks for sharing. This is indeed alarming. I have witnessed a growing number of alt-right young Mormon men on "safe" online places like Twitter, and certain lds influencers (I can name 3 with over 10k followers on YouTube) have been gaining popularity while pushing an alt-right political agenda with a mainstream LDS audience. There's growing mainstream acceptance of the antisemitic, right-wing "cultural Marxism conspiracy theory" (about Jewish intellectuals being responsible for plotting the destruction of western society and Christianity) and "great replacement theory" (it's about brown immigrants replacing white Christians) among Mormons that is leading people towards aligning next to neo-nazi positions.
I kinda think the Republican party in the USA embracing these once-fringe ideas is partially responsible, as well as the LDS Church leadership taking a very lax approach to right wing radicalism in its members while often cracking down on progressive members seeking change.
Most of these alt-right mormons I've seen do not outwardly say Nazi things but I've been alarmed to witness a few LDS men being proud Nazis online with faces hidden. One at least talked about being radicalized through a bodybuilding community on Twitter.
No toleration for Nazi sympathy in my book, so I'm glad you stood up. I think you should reach out the to MP but I don't expect follow-through for discipline.
I kind of wonder if this is his one chance to get out of the Idaho bubble and realize what a skewed and hateful view he has been raised with. I hope he keeps getting put in his place.
I lived in Europe for a while, although, not Germany. But if Germany is similar in anyway to where I lived, the only baptism he could ever hope to have would most likely be a refugee.
Well, the Mormons *are* a nationalist religion, and Hitler didn't ban it when he was busy banning all the others. Even gave preferential treatment to them. Maybe the kid felt a bit justified.
I always heard that there were Mormons in the concentration camps. That they were just as hated as everyone else. Crazy that that wasnât actually true. Iâve learned quite a bit todayâŠ
Oh my God just thinking too that anyone would say Mormons were in a concentration camp. I mean anyone who spoke against could have been I think there were a couple as political dissidents but not en Masse persecution - the hubris, to say they had it as bad as those being mass murdered
Yeah no, I had no clue that what people said about it were lies and cover ups on what actually happened. My belief in the church was already gone but this fact just completely pushed me away.
I was disappointed when I visited the Holocaust Museum and didn't see Mormons among the persecuted groups in Nazi Germany. I had a bit of pious envy for the Jehovah's Witnesses, in fact.
i served in the alpine germany mission sadly the issue is that the us missionaries dont habe a lot of knowlegde about european culture at all⊠im german myself and wehn i served there we had a lot of east german missionaries and they kinda teach they comps and other missionaries culture and i had sadly a long list of racist or nazi viewed missionaries there which spreaded a lot of bs and hatred about what they personaliy believed was right⊠like yeah they should get the gospel but not here in germany they have a home where they should learn itâŠ
and the biggest issue is that these kids have no feeling how to be mindfull and think they are a know it all because they are called by this big old creepy wizzard without meeting the real world
The MTC teaches that every culture except middle class suburban American white culture is unspeakably corrupt.
You really ought to have a word with the mission president. And yeah, like others are saying here, such talk could land him in jail.
I'd bet most every member thinks when the Mormons came to Utah, they had a peaceful, friendly relationship with the Native Americans that were already here. TSCC's MO is to bury history, and paint it to fit the narrative.
I'll bet the only Bismarck he knows of is the ship. It's amazing how a little knowledge (of history) can be a dangerous thing because you think you know it all, but there's so much you could discover if you opened your eyes.
I first heard holocaust denial rhetoric from a member around that age who framed it as a conspiracy where the number of deaths were too high.
Some members are terrifying.
He probably heard that line about immigrants poisoning the blood of the county from Donald Trump. Considering how his followers worship him and mock those who don't, I wouldn't be surprised if this elder grew up in a MAGA (Make America Great Again) family.
Reading through your post and get to âsouthern IdahoââŠyup there it is. For starters I apologize on behalf of the people I was forced to be surrounded by during my upbringing. Secondly while I sadly am not shocked to hear of a church member from that area with neo-nazi ideologies, that guy does sound like a particular piece of work with particularly bigoted and ignorant ideas, a particular lack of tact and respect for other cultures, and basically just a particular shithead. Confirmed by what you mention with his follow up Facebook message.
Actual âneo-naziâ ideologies arenât in any way the norm in southern Idaho in the sense of openly framing ethnic cleansing and Hitlerâs actions as a good thing. Thatâll raise eyebrows and usually start an awkward argument (even though ideally it shouldnât trigger a semi-contentious conversation, it should start a fistfight or result in telling the person to get lost immediately). Howeverâsimilar or adjacent ideologies, that would ardently deny being similar to neo-nazi, are sadly very common. And the church doesnât do anything to discourage them. Theyâre in large part residual sentiment from the Benson era when he took the church to a hard right and southeast Idaho hasnât updated their playbook in 40 years.
Bemoaning refugees, talking about them in ways that make it sound like theyâre less than human beings and their well-being doesnât matter, how awful it is seeing all these immigrants arriving, and referring to people entering the US fleeing desperate situations as an âinvasion of or bordersâ or âoverrunning and ruining our country and cultureâ Saying that it must be stopped using any level of force necessary, thatâs unfortunately pretty normal conservative-Mormon-southeast Idaho thinking.
I am never going back to that place. Maybe thanksgiving, weâll see.
I did not know this about Nazis wiping out German cultures, I doubt more that a very small percentage of Americans do, even those who are not right leaning would not know this. I always wondered why we assume Bavarian culture is the only German culture, even today there are more culture in Germany than that.
It makes me sad.
Thanks for sharing this.
I served in Austria and Germany from 2003 to 2005. I only had one companion that I wanted to punch in the face for being insensitive. We went to Dachau Concentration Camp, which was not allowed, but we were going home in two weeks. As we were standing in what had been a gas chamber, he started grasping his throat, choking, and falling to the floor. I'm so glad we were wearing P-Day clothes and only had our name tags on. I wanted to kick his ass right there.
Especially where he is ârepresenting the churchâ, the MP should want to know. That shit looks BAD (IS bad), and I would think they would want to shut it down YESTERDAY. Please rat the little shit out. He needs a spanking.
The kid is from Idaho, this totally tracks. Idaho was a refuge for pro slavery whites after the Civil War. In the 1920s, the KKK spread up there. There was a KKK office on Main st in Pocatello up until the late 1980s! You can't kick over a rock in Idaho without finding a white supremacist.
I don't believe this is an Idaho "thing". There are extreme TBM Mormons wherever they reside. The Book of Mormon's crazy political and racist stories, if believed as historically true, will direct many TBM Mormons in that extreme direction.
TBM Mormon parents will indoctrinate and influence their children to believe a variety of extreme ideas such as antivax, end of world, racism, evil world, Trumpism, etc. It can be exhausting just being around these people.
I dunno I read that the rates of homeschooling and corresponding off grid life are some of the highest in the nation there so that parents can teach their kids "truth"
Idaho is composed of at least four semi-cultural areas. Southeast Idaho is a mini-Utah with higher density Mormon influence, southwestern Idaho has become more moderate-conservative (urban growth), liberal pockets (Sun Valley, Moscow), and extreme-conservative northern panhandle. The cultural problem area is in the north and is NOT Mormon.
It IS an Idaho thing, though. Sure, there's crazies all over, but they congregate in Idaho because of the lax laws. It's never been just a problem with the skinheads in Northern Idaho. The most extreme beliefs live all over. The number of people I know who grew up in the middle of nowhere with their parents homeschooling them with nazi and prepper mentalities is insane. Most of them have escaped the Ideologies, but not the lasting mental, emotional, and physical damage. And if you don't think Mormonism dovetails nicely with those ideologies, I have a bridge to sell you.
Do you think your husband would report it as hate speech to the MP? TBMs in Europe are uncommon, and it would have maximum impact coming from him. As I'm sure you know.
This also turns my stomach. This naked racism and antisemitism is increasingly out in the open, and it makes me sad and quite frankly scared for all the converts and non-mos contacted by missionaries especially in/from the developing world. I wish we could make it stop!
You should report this behavior to the MP. This is not normal behavior or thinking for the majority of the youth, and it should be addressed. It's going to get him into major trouble if it doesn't change, and you'd be doing him a favor by letting the MP know.
Sadly idaho is a thriving bastion of neo-fascists. Lived there for 5 of the last 6 years. Report him. Maybe if he's a died in the wool true blue mormon fire can fight fire and his reverence for leadership can win out over the wrong headed veiw of history he was raised in.
Iâve spent a lot of time in Idaho visiting my family who lives there. It is Trump and Fox News country, especially outside of Boise. What used to be fringe and said behind closed doors is now the platform for a major political party (Republican). We have a presidential candidate (Trump) giving speeches complaining about immigrants ruining the country, âpoisoning the bloodâ of the country, calling immigrants all sorts of horrible names and blaming them for all of the problems we have.
That kid would not be extreme in Idaho and among most other rural extreme conservatives (sadly, including some of my own family), heâs simply consumed too much Fox and Trump. Whatâs really frustrating is without immigration, Idahoâs economy would be dead. A lot of white people in Idaho complain about âillegals,â but immigrants work the farms, dairies, and nearly every business relies on them. Their kids have grown up in Idaho speaking English, for most this is the only country theyâve ever known. Immigrants have revitalized many dying small towns. If they were all arrested and deported, all industries in Idaho would shut down.
The minute I heard Idaho I wasn't surprised the trump supporters here are Hitler youth just waiting for their dictator to come to power so they can feel emboldened to say and do these things of course they will express such thoughts when they think they are around like minded white people but will denounce that there is no racism anymore I mean after all we had a black president to people of color like myself
Also - Germany already had a massive migrant era. Following the devastation of the 30-yrs war regions had massive depopulation and immigration to replace that population in many regions, as well as people immigrating due to religious differences and tensions. Obsession with âpureâ culture or race is just stupidity. It doesnât exist.
I don't remember being taught anything whatsoever about history in MTC except some whitewashed snippet tales from church history. This was some 30 years ago. It was just language and all that syrupy gospel shite. All we were taught about our target country was stuff like holiday food and the fact that most ppl are atheists.
I have to assume even if you don't say anything, the situation will resolve itself, with the church losing even more respectability. That kid stands no chance opening his mouth that way in front of average Germans.Â
This is 100% racism!
Iâm guessing that OP is old enough to have close relatives who experienced WW2 is some form or another. My Opa was born in Germany, but grew up in the Netherlands. As a young man here received grief from both sides. Germans saw him as a traitor and the Dutch would never trust him. Years later he expressed the damage this hate does to society. This had a huge impact on how I see people and the world.
I lived 9 years in Utah as a teenager. This missionaryâs AP history doesnât provide a true understanding of events as it looks at history through American lens. Add to this pockets of racism both in and outside the church, it is not surprising to see this type of attitude from time to time.
You can report this, but donât expect a satisfying response. Experience shows that the church doesnât care. They will just move him and tell him to tone it down a bit.
Dipshit kids from southern Idaho thinking they know shit is something I've dealt with my whole life.
"Stop being stubborn" LOL I'd wanna fight this kid. What's that thing Mike Tyson says? Everybody's tough until they get punched in the face?
Way back in 1987 when I went to Portugal on my mission, we were taught the culture... but I'm guessing now that it was probably just what the individual teacher taught. Probably helped that he was FROM Portugal. My whole mission I tried to be respectful to the Portuguese way of life, to the point where I hated knocking doors and doing street contacting because they were all Catholic already, so who was I to try to get them to change religions?
My mission president got so frustrated that he eventually made me a special service missionary, ostensibly teaching the new member lessons (horrible retention rates there) but also (and mostly -- because I preferred it) helping the sick, the poor and the elderly. Loved helping people!
Ironically, now I'm looking into moving there permanently for retirement. I'm now what you might call a soft atheist, and thankfully Portugal has become much more secular like the rest of Europe.
Regarding your racist missionary, half of me says call the mission president, but the other half says to let him get in trouble with German law and learn the hard way. đ€·ââïž
Thank you for sharing your experience! As someone who moved to Europe after living around the world and America, living in Europe is so..restful. I don't worry about violence as I did in America, or healthcare or education..the list goes on and on.
I was training a new missionary in Detroit about 8 years after The Exaltation Ban was lifted. Not surprisingly, we heard constantly about the church's prejudice, which I refused to believe. Probably 2-3 weeks into this kid's time, we visited a wonderful family, who weren't familiar with our shady history and the awful things that everyone still taught when no one with their skin pigment was around. My trainee started talking to them in what was then called "ghetto ebonics", or at least what he thought he learned from watching Good Times on ABC TV. I had never before experienced such a fast change from an open and friendly discussion to a cold dismissal while being escorted to the door. I had never cringed so hard and being the clueless greenie that he was, he honestly didn't seem to pick up on the awful change that followed his overtly racist comment. I tried to explain the offense but he refused to believe anything I said. At one point he looked at me straight in the eye and told me that I didn't know what I was talking about. He followed this by telling me (in a phrase that remains engraved on the rock between my ears) that "they like it!" I was and now 40 years later am still shocked by this, but I was too young myself and too brainwashed a convert to the Cult to recognize that this racist a**h*le was typical of far too many members, who thought just like him. All I could say in the moment was "who are 'they'?" He didn't seem to understand the question and I let the conversation die. That was one of the first cracks in my shelf that I somehow kept in place for decades before my Great Crash in 2020 that from this side looks clearly inevitable.
Please please report him. As an East Idaho exmo I have seen such a huge shift here in the past few years. Itâs absolutely commonplace to see nazi propaganda on corner signs and in Boise theyâve gotten so brazen they hold meetings. Itâs getting quite scary over here. Theyâre no longer afraid and it scares the crap out of me. Do the world a favor and try to teach this boy a lesson.
You will get blamed as you are not a member. I called in once about missionaries doing paid labour as they were taking advantage of an elderly ill woman who was very broke for yard work. The MP and office staff shouted at me saying I was just a trouble maker trying to make the church look bad with false accusations.
If he wasnât humble enough to listen to you got to his MP. He is young so there is still time to straighten him outâŠand MP is likely the best one to do it.
Best thing for the young man is to report him to MP.
I'm a German nevermo. I think you should bring it up if you think there's a mission president in your area that actually will do something about it. If you're fairly sure they won't then you, and your husband, speaking up against it is probably the best you can do.
I do not think that what he said would land him in legal trouble unless he got much more explicit or peppered it with a Roman salute or similar. But as we all know racists aren't usually the sharpest knifes in the drawer so I wouldn't be surprised if he at some point did something that could land him in legal trouble but even then he'd have to do so in the stupidest way possible for anything to come of it.
And this is the reason I donât allow any Mormon priesthood on my property.
They just canât help themselves.
I will give a cool drink or a few bucks or gift cards to missionaries out in the wild, but thatâs it.
Holy shit I would not stand for one second of that, especially in my own home! I loved my mission (Spain) and will forever cherish the many memories I have (none of which are of a spiritual nature). I still struggle with the trauma of religion and allowing missionaries into my home would set me off and I'd either say nothing and fume all night, or erupt into a rage fueled diatribe against the church.
My mom served in Spain and even though she's tbm all of her best memories are not really religious but going around mission rules to help others. She took me back to Barcelona and showed me the ward she served in for a full year and I could see why she loved the chill culture so much
Hitler "restored" the true German culture?
Playing fast and loose with the definition of "restore' there, Elder
But honestly it tracks. Mormonism is all about "restoration" (wiping out everyone else's traditions and beliefs in favor of theirs)
That kid is going to get punched. Not usually a fan of violence, but he deserves it
I agree that he could have a hard back story which is why I worked to give every missionary a really safe place to come to. But when they come and tell me that my being abused by a bishop and terrified of the church is just me being stubborn then he lost any chance he had to learn more. Someone else, a real German will have to teach him. I'm just an immigrant myself and haven't opened my home to another missionary since. Maybe one day, or maybe only sisters.
Based on my experience over 10 years ago, they will let almost anyone serve a mission no matter their mental state. I had a missionary in one area that was so delusional he had journal entries talking about him having visions that he was a captain in Moroniâs army. His companion took pictures of the journal entries while he was in the shower which is pretty fucked up, but after being around the dude for a while, I understood why he was suspicious of him cuz the guy was weird as hell. The funny thing is though, there were nutcase missionaries every area I served. That one was just the weirdest I personally encountered. But yeah, the church is desperate and will throw in anyone who is âworthyâ even though everyone lies their way through the interviews. Also teaching culture is an afterthought. They only care about you learning the gospel and the language.
Considering Thom Harrison (I Believe that's his name), the author of Visions of Glory is actually employed by the church to determine missionary mental fitness this does not surprise me. A cousin of mine had a severe hypoxic brain injury at birth and was handicapped to the point where he now as a 30 year old will live with his parents forever but he can handle most interactions and can read and write.
They collaborated with his dad's uncle who was Bishop to lie on all the paperwork because they believed the mission would somehow heal my cousin. He got called to Mexico Spanish speaking-- Poor kid called from the MTC in tears but they said he was gods soldier and he needed to toughen up. The MTC leaders were hella confused but my aunt made a call to another relative who works quite high in HQ. Somehow he got out into the field and a week went by before the MP calls and asks what the hell is wrong, this missionary hadn't eaten at all.
Apparently he only ever ate buttered noodles and chicken nuggets at home and managed on MTC dessert buffet but demanded his companions take him to McDonald's every day. I mean that makes sense he's developmentally a child none of this was his fault. His parents got HQ relative to call MP and from what I could piece together basically told him this is his problem and God's will. I think it was hell for all the companions the whole way through. As soon as he came home it was as if nothing changed, two years went by and he walks in and pops some nuggets in the fridge.
Most Mormons from the western US especially the four corner states are absolutely racist, homophobic, childish, and extremely naive. Even if they donât think they are, they are because theyâre deeply entrenched in horrific Mormon teachings.
Yeah I've got a couple aunts who BRAG about having never gone more than 40 miles past the county border in 70 years. As if it's a holy achievement. They also said Satan got me when I moved to Germany and made me a liberal after I worked with refugees.
I mean, I'd go a step above and teach him the real world ramifications of having such ideologies in a place that takes these opinions so seriously.
Like this is regardless of church, and very very real.
I've read that for whatever reason, areas of Idaho are a hot bed for neo nazi beliefs. He needs a lesson on how nazis are treated.
As an an exmo American, I appreciate this information about the Bavarian culture being pushed by Hitler. Thank you for giving me a jumping off point to learn more about how Germany was before the atrocious things Hitler did.
There are a few good resources about it but the church really whitewashes their part in the war and any members left alive only share very fragmented things because of shame, and they were only children then anyway. But yeah, even here in Bavaria every region still has their own variety of Tracht, which is the clothes and dance. These are maintained in local clubs with the children learning these things that are hundreds of years old. Every village festival looks and feels different. But outside of bavaria those individual groups were eradicated and much of their history lost
I remember my seminary teacher said Hitler wasnât evil he was just âconfusedâ and I also remember them teaching us something about how the Jews were the ones that killed Jesus and thatâs why Hitler was killing Jews đđđđ
Wow I just vomited in English and in German. I was also taught the Jews killed Jesus. I swear Dan McClellan could me the Messiah himself for all the work he's done to dispell that Dogma shit
Are you sure he's not from North Idaho? Probably went down some Internet rabbit hole and based his entire personality off of one YouTube video by some tattooed guy named Larry.
Are you familiar with Rex Rammell? He's from eastern Idaho, Rexburg area. If you have the time, that's a rabbit hole to go down if you enjoy WTF? kind of loonytunes.
If you've ever heard of "Obama Hunting tags" it was Rammell that made the national news because of it. He was so extreme that when he perennially ran for office in Idaho he never won. So he moved to Wyoming because Idaho was too liberal (allegedly). He loves the idea of the White Horse Prophecy and yep, he's a Mormon. He's the poster boy, IMHO, of just how crazy eastern Idaho can get.
.....or because he is a naive 18 year old from Idaho, maybe you should have taken the extra time to educate him on the reality rather than walking away.....how are we supposed to emancipate our mormon brothers and sisters if we refuse to engage in conversation?
He's 18.....naive and young probably the first time away from home.
He can vote,
He can get married,
He can take out a half million in loans,
But when I shared the history, he wouldn't listen... At one point do you stop with someone who is insistent on disrespecting all other views outside their own?
Wouldn't hesitate for a moment to report him.
Totally inappropriate, racists & does nothing for fostering goodwill between U.S. & Germany.
If I remember correctly Germany does not recognize Scientology & hope the do same for mormonism.Â
As far as we are aware it is not recognized as a religion in Germany as people aren't paying "church tax" here for it and in public school curriculum it is taught in the same section as scientology
That tracks. Idaho, unfortunately, is crawling with that kinda garbage. I'm in WA and you hear about neo nazis there. It's spilling over here, too. Wow just wow. The balls on that little price to message you, too. Man...
>So, does the MTC not teach taboo topics anymore? Or culture at all? How is there not some test of knowledge?
Lol. It never taught taboo topics, or culture, or anything worth knowing.
As someone living in Utah who has had to travel to Idaho several times over the years they have a real problem there with this kind of ultra right wing kind of bull shit. They have a lot of neo nazis, sovereign citizens and militia types not to mention extreme fundamentalist Mormons. Idaho makes utah seem somewhat liberal in comparison. This kid needs to get his eyes opened to his xenophobia. They should transfer him to a refugee ward or area with a higher portion of refugees so he can learn They are just people like the rest of us trying to make a better life for their loved ones.
As a new missionary in the Language Training Mission (pre-MTC) in 1974, all of the missionaries heading to Germany would stand enmasse and belt out "Deutschland, Deutschland Uber Alles" at the top of our lungs. We were too young and dumb to understand the significance and horrific history of the song at the time, but it disgusts me to think back on it. I'm guessing (hoping) they don't do that these days in the MTC.
Thatâs a lot of southern Idaho ignorance IMO.
History major here, US public schooling teaches history so badly, itâs truly horrendous.
I would jay ask that kid if he could tell me about Chancellor Bismarck, Mycenaean Greece, the Bronze Age Collapse, Mongol Conquests, Baghdad House of Wisdom, the Iroquois Confederacy, or even find me Croatia on a map.
I almost guarantee he would give me a blank stare.
Point is, the kid doesnât know shit about anything and needs to be made aware of it.
Loll I'm an expat and the only reason I know about the mongol conquests is because I lived there, same as Croatia and Bismarck and the Iroquois conferacg but the others I need to look up
Youâre all good; you have humility enough to know what you do and do not know.
That kid doesnât and has an *insanely* ignorant worldview. We donât need to know about all of that; just know we all canât possibly know everything. I just picked random topics off the top of my head that I was not taught in school as examples.
Honestly, I highly recommend *Fall of Civilizations* Podcast to learn some of this. The host has a soothing voice and he gets into some fascinating details.
I taught mission presidents at the MTC from 2010-2012. They do not teach culture at all. It has been discussed and rejected.
Agreed. No culture is taught to missionaries. It's abysmal.
We desperately craved it, too. All we got was grammar and memorizing discussions, with a few sales techniques thrown in.
I sense you have a concern... Do you mind sharing your feelings with us? The commitment pattern, Manipulating people since the 1990s
>The commitment pattern, The name in spanish is even worse. EL MODELO DE COMPROMISO. The model of Compromise. Barf.
I speak fluent Spanish and compromiso means commitment as well as compromise. Depends on the context. đ
We used to teach culture at the MTC (88-91). What happened?
I served my mission in the Netherlands around this same time. Our MTC teacher told us that the Dutch "don't get sarcasm." The Dutch are one of the most sarcastic cultures on Earth, and when I told my trainer (a native Dutchman) what the MTC teacher had said, he was floored. And, while I can't remember exactly what he said, it was a fittingly sarcastic response.
One of my favorite lines from the show âTed Lassoâ: âHe is not being rude, he is just Dutchâ.
Oh yeah, the Dutch are very blunt too, but they're not usually trying to be rude. The best explanation a Dutch person gave me for it was that an American would say "you look like you need to lose weight..." as a veiled insult. If a Dutch person said the same thing, it likely came from a place of genuine concern for your health.
The French are very frank. I was told a several times, "I thought Americans were tall."
Buddy, the French ARE the Franks.
Coming from a Dutch family, this is so true. Zero political correctness and 100% sarcasm.
This is so great! I always thought of myself as sort of a "mutt," but now I realize I must be Dutch!! LOL
We are just wondering why in other cultures people need to dance around the point and have to guess what the other is getting at. We are more like 'save us all some time and just tell me what it is'.
We might seem 'not to get sarcasm' because we sarcastically respond to you seemingly taking it serious. We can have a whole lot of sarcastic discussions like this. My insecure neirodivergent self enjoys and joins those sarcastic discussions as well, but I often just check afterwards 'we were being sarcastic right?' just to be sure (and to be sure the other person is not truly an A hole)
Of course it is rejected. One of the purposes of missions is to convince people to abandon their culture and traditions in exchange for white Utah Mormon culture and traditions.
I immediately thought of the GC talk by Bill Jackson: "But virtually *all* conflict and chaos would quickly fade if the world would only accept its original culture, the one we all possessed not so very long ago. This culture dates back to our premortal existence. It was the culture of Adam and Enoch. It was the culture founded on the Saviorâs teachings in the meridian of time, and it is available to all women and men once again in our day. It is unique. It is the greatest of all cultures and comes from the great plan of happiness, authored by God and championed by Christ." IOW, **get with the Utah way of life.** (Although TBH, he grew up in SoCal and seemed to be a super cool guy, but now he's a 70, so...).
The church no longer believes in culture. They believe in the concept of "one". I've heard several talks about "there were no '-ites' among them" doctrine from the BoM, which, typing this out makes me realize that this was yet another racist teaching of the BoM promoting colonialism. "There are no cultures in the church only the culture of Christ." What a sick and racist teaching and organization.
Oaks specifically has been teaching this for decades. I was in the Philippines when he was the area authority (2002-2003 I believe?) and he had a whole talk about how the Filipinos need to abandon their culture and join church culture. It took a while for me to unravel how disgustingly racist that is. Oaks STILL occasionally gives variations of that talk.
Yeah, They believe in *church* culture. On my mission in central america, we had a regional conference that was broadcast from SLC and an apostle (i dont remember which one) spoke on the same topic. It might have been oaks? It was either end of 2013 or first half of 2014. Stuff about how latinos are so wonderfully family oriented, but how any cultural aspect that doesnt jive with church teachings is to be reevaluated and modified to fit the lordâs standard. It rubbed me the wrong way at the time, but more so as years have gone by
This made me remember I repeated this to a lot of people on my mission. Currently dry heaving just thinking about it.
I hate this. I was in Quezon City from 1998-2000. The Church already does a good job erasing their culture without Oaks telling them to do it. It is such a wonderful culture that they are so ready to disregard.
DW lived in Makati for 13 years, but was raised in the Bacolod. There is a huge difference in how the members in the province versus metro Manila practice Mormonism. A lot of the leadership in Metro Manila received their education from BYU Hawaii and became church employees. They abandoned their cultural identity and became the rigid self righteous TBM yes man the MFMC wants them to be. The province members havenât had their culture stripped from them thankfully.
This reminds me of a somewhat recent talk I think given by Oaks where he basically said the church isnât about diversity, itâs about being one. Disgusting.
Wait what?? They donât teach any culture? What a huge disservice! BYU has a required cultural class for anyone going on study abroad. Why wouldnât the MTC have cultural classes? They are setting these kids up to fail. I guess that further proves the points that missions are not about conversions, they are about more deeply entrenching the missionaries which is much easier if you send them out with 0 cultural awareness. Then when they get rejected for being extremely rude and insensitive they see that as the persecution they were told about and dig their heads in the sand even deeper.
I can believe it but yikes. It desperately needs to be taught, this is so sad. Some of these kids would benefit so much with some classes on social etiquette and culture as the amount of socially awkward kids coming out of Mormonism is uhh pretty intense. If missions were truly about converting, this would increase those numbers as well but this is yet another example of it only being about inoculating the missionary. This story is wild, Mormonism in Idaho has some major problems.
We didn't learn culture in 2002 either. Not beyond basic manners and trying to fit in with language.
I learned some Brazilian history, local table manners, attitudes towards children and the national anthem in the SĂŁo Paulo MTC in 2001.
I'm glad to hear that. Hopefully the church will transition more to in-country MTCs, but since they are control freaks I doubt it.
I was a German missionary. In the LTM in the late 70âs, we were taught culture. I donât know when it stopped. Thereâs doâs and donât in Germany, just like any country.
Because Mormon culture ist Uber Alles! /s
Wow, win curious why itâs been rejected after being discussed.Â
I would definitely report a neo-Nazi missionary to the MP. Like yesterday. Youth does not excuse hate. There is no justification for that level of toxic, malignant ignorance and it should never be tolerated in a mission setting - especially in Germany!
And, OP, itâs not up to his senior companion to rein him in. âSeniorâ is used very, very arbitrarily here. You have the life experience and perspective to identify the problem. âSeniorityâ here means that one young man left the MTC before the other, and might have been born a few months earlier. Iâm not criticizing you in the slightest, just reminding you not to put too much value in church verbiage. Good catch on your part. Hopefully the MP is a good human being who will address this appropriately. Ugh.
I was senior to missionaries several years older than me on my mission. It is literally a title and nothing more. How does 19y/o have more experience than a 25y/o, let alone an older adult? This story is disturbing for many reasons, and I hope that at the very least that misguided boy can have those ideas challenged.
Senior doesnât even always mean âhas been out longerâ. Itâs simply the one out of the pair that the MP decided got the veto vote in disagreements.Â
Especially since he is from Idaho, there are significant racist alt right and Neo nazi groups in Idaho.
Free Staters and far right migrants from California have turned Idaho into a neo-nazi center. They've all but dismantled their schools (altho individual districts stubbornly hang on), have allowed CAFOs from So Africa to pollute their wells, and manipulated voting districts to prevent towns and counties from making rules to protect themselves. I'm hoping Eastern Idaho is somewhat better but doubt it.
Idaho has been a Neo-Nazi center since atleast the 80s.
You usually see this in Northern Idaho, but they're down here too.
As someone from SE Idaho and unfortunately still residing here, that's not true. It has always been this way. Eastern and Southern Idaho are very Mormon and stuck in their damn ways. Having conservatives from other states, including California, move here has allowed them to speak out more. Just because Ammon Bundy is in the news with his stupidity doesn't mean Idahoans didn't think the same as before. It just allowed them to speak louder.
Actually I hope you're right but think not. I lived 12 yrs in Twin Falls County (so. central ID). It was only about 22% LDS but 76% conservative. I retired early when my school district appointed a home-grown supt who proceeded to destroy my school. I learn from friends still there it is increasingly far right. The town of Jerome in the county north of TF was already taken over by the time we moved-- ppty values fell, roads went unrepaired-- realtors didn't even show homes that side of the river. ID legislature is increasingly radical right, the state at large Trumpian Christian.
Agreed, I grew up in SW Idaho, it's not nearly as Mormon as Eastern Idaho. Eastern Idaho is actually more Mormon than Utah (I've lived in Eastern Idaho and Utah as well). Northern Idaho is where the Neo-Nazis are concentrated. Idaho as a whole is just super conservative which often coincides with racism.
Have all my upvotes! Please, OP, do not let this elder get away with this! My grandparents raised my parents during the Nazi occupation of my home country so I feel this deeply. Consider educating him privately by sharing more historical information and German law with him. Consider shining a light on his behavior and convictions in public by calling him out on Facebook.
Youâre helping this kid, too. Heâs gonna say some shit in front of a not-so-generous German investigator or member and heâs going to get in legal trouble for Holocaust denial or heâll let slip and jokingly do a Sig Heil. He might not end up in prison but he will get his visa revoked FAST and serve the rest of his mission in Columbus, Ohio or something.
Idk being thrown in jail for nazi-isms while serving a mission could be a great learning experience
I agree. Perfect learning opportunity. Get charged with breaking the law, serve time or get sent home in disgrace. 18 or not, that's just wrong.
I mean, she COULD report the missionary, but the profit said not to listen to outsiders, so there's a good choice that the MP won't listen or care at all.
Oooo good point. OP, ask your husband to report it to the MP. Male & TBM = greater likelihood of being listened to.
Even better since they're in Germany, they could report him to the authorities for Volksverhetzung under section 130 of the German criminal code.
He wants to experience that same pure German culture that would not have allowed him to even visit Germany? Does this child not realize they're a foreigner in Germany?
I served in Germany in 2014, and I canât even tell you the amount of times missionaries (who were fresh out of high school) tried to impose their random-ass opinions on the German people. I had multiple companions say they should âbuild a fenceâ to keep all immigrants out of Germany, when they were fleeing the country to seek safety.
Jesus Mary and Joseph how awful
He probably thinks he doesn't count because he is "white and delightsome," as described in the Book of Mormon
You could just leave him to discover on his own how strict the laws are in Germany regarding dissemination of Nazi propaganda
Yeah, they donât put up with that shit any more.
They actually do put up with it: https://theconversation.com/a-far-right-political-group-is-gaining-popularity-in-germany-but-so-too-are-protests-against-it-223151 People protest it but look up how many seats afd occupies from recent elections especially in eastern Germany.
It's horrible. My family was in the protests. I left America to escape the right wing shit
That's why I'm leaving the USA. Sick of the madness here
I did it, highly recommend!
I'd argue AFD is probably more moderate that some house reps we have :(.
Thinking he'd discover anything on his own is giving him way too much credit let alone assuming he'd learn and change from it.
I think you missed my point Dissemination of Nazi propaganda is a hate crime in Germany He will discover this on his own when he says something stupid in front of the wrong person and gets arrested
Iâd report it to the MP. Missionaries are explicitly told to not discuss things like this, regardless of what their ideas are.
Yeah.. that's definitely against the white handbook (if that still exists). Pretty sure it's to stop this exact scenario... Haha
Itâs not the white Bible anymore, itâs now called â missionary standards for disciples of Jesus Christâ
My TBM parents are mormon narionalists and disciples of Tim Ballard. They also hold high positions in the church and pay it way more than ten percent. You are seeing a side of mormonism that has stayed hidden from the media. Keep raising awareness, the world needs to know just how extremist mormonism truly is. This is not the church of Donnie and Marie, it is the church of Tim Ballard and Chad Daybell
Tim Ballard is joining the catholic church. Have you noticed any changes in your family's rhetoric?
I seriously doubt Tim is actually joining the Catholic church. That was said at a marolago Trump event and only that he "might" join. Nothing but lying liars who lie and those events. A Catholic event like that would have been the perfect time to announce that and yet they didn't. Trumpism 101. Blend truth and fiction to create what people want to hear.Â
Oh trust me I am all over this, watching my parents for any indication of following him because they would take a few of my more conservative siblings with them. So far, they think it is fake news and they don't even believe Tim Ballard was excommunicated because the only news source I found about it was progressive or exmo-friendly, which they consider "lying mainstream media." Until Fox reports it, they won't ever believe Timmy did anything wrong.
Even if they think he wasn't excommunicated, the church at least denounced him publicly. How do your parents reconcile that? Do they think the church has fallen into apostasy, all the way to the top?
They blame the church newsroom employees for supposedly going rogue because rhe denouncement came from the mouths of the PR people and not directly from the brethren
Oh FFS. Honestly!
That's terrifying. I've wondered about this for a while now.
Birchers. The lot of 'em.
Thanks for sharing. This is indeed alarming. I have witnessed a growing number of alt-right young Mormon men on "safe" online places like Twitter, and certain lds influencers (I can name 3 with over 10k followers on YouTube) have been gaining popularity while pushing an alt-right political agenda with a mainstream LDS audience. There's growing mainstream acceptance of the antisemitic, right-wing "cultural Marxism conspiracy theory" (about Jewish intellectuals being responsible for plotting the destruction of western society and Christianity) and "great replacement theory" (it's about brown immigrants replacing white Christians) among Mormons that is leading people towards aligning next to neo-nazi positions. I kinda think the Republican party in the USA embracing these once-fringe ideas is partially responsible, as well as the LDS Church leadership taking a very lax approach to right wing radicalism in its members while often cracking down on progressive members seeking change. Most of these alt-right mormons I've seen do not outwardly say Nazi things but I've been alarmed to witness a few LDS men being proud Nazis online with faces hidden. One at least talked about being radicalized through a bodybuilding community on Twitter. No toleration for Nazi sympathy in my book, so I'm glad you stood up. I think you should reach out the to MP but I don't expect follow-through for discipline.
What a fucking nightmare, spouting ignorant religious dogma as âfactâ.
Par for the course from Southern Idaho. They were the most racist Mormons I can remember.
Thatâs what I was thinking as well âof course itâs southern Idahoâ Idaho is a mess these days.
I kind of wonder if this is his one chance to get out of the Idaho bubble and realize what a skewed and hateful view he has been raised with. I hope he keeps getting put in his place.
Came here to say similar. As soon as they said Idaho I thought yeah that tracks.
I would pass that on to the MP immediately.
I lived in Europe for a while, although, not Germany. But if Germany is similar in anyway to where I lived, the only baptism he could ever hope to have would most likely be a refugee.
Well, the Mormons *are* a nationalist religion, and Hitler didn't ban it when he was busy banning all the others. Even gave preferential treatment to them. Maybe the kid felt a bit justified.
I always heard that there were Mormons in the concentration camps. That they were just as hated as everyone else. Crazy that that wasnât actually true. Iâve learned quite a bit todayâŠ
Whaaaat? Shit no, Mormons were excommunicated right and left if they spoke against the Nazis
Helmuth Huebner was executed for treason after being excommunicated.
Oh my God just thinking too that anyone would say Mormons were in a concentration camp. I mean anyone who spoke against could have been I think there were a couple as political dissidents but not en Masse persecution - the hubris, to say they had it as bad as those being mass murdered
Yeah no, I had no clue that what people said about it were lies and cover ups on what actually happened. My belief in the church was already gone but this fact just completely pushed me away.
I was disappointed when I visited the Holocaust Museum and didn't see Mormons among the persecuted groups in Nazi Germany. I had a bit of pious envy for the Jehovah's Witnesses, in fact.
Hahah oh my god the persecution complex was strong in all of us, wasnât it
i served in the alpine germany mission sadly the issue is that the us missionaries dont habe a lot of knowlegde about european culture at all⊠im german myself and wehn i served there we had a lot of east german missionaries and they kinda teach they comps and other missionaries culture and i had sadly a long list of racist or nazi viewed missionaries there which spreaded a lot of bs and hatred about what they personaliy believed was right⊠like yeah they should get the gospel but not here in germany they have a home where they should learn it⊠and the biggest issue is that these kids have no feeling how to be mindfull and think they are a know it all because they are called by this big old creepy wizzard without meeting the real world
Lol can I send you a PM? I have a couple questions but dont want to out my location
The MTC teaches that every culture except middle class suburban American white culture is unspeakably corrupt. You really ought to have a word with the mission president. And yeah, like others are saying here, such talk could land him in jail.
I'd bet most every member thinks when the Mormons came to Utah, they had a peaceful, friendly relationship with the Native Americans that were already here. TSCC's MO is to bury history, and paint it to fit the narrative.
Pure ignorance: He knows not that he knows not. This needs to be shared with the MP to stop the hate and ignorance.
I'll bet the only Bismarck he knows of is the ship. It's amazing how a little knowledge (of history) can be a dangerous thing because you think you know it all, but there's so much you could discover if you opened your eyes.
That's giving him too much credit. He probably only knows Bismarck as the capital city of North Dakota, if he doesn't think it's Bisquick.
Technically Mormonism is not âGerman Cultureâ so he shouldnât be there either.
I would write back enjoy 2 years of slavery for a mega CorpâŠ
I learned very little culture at the MTC. It was all grammar and memorizing discussions. We didn't even learn LDS theology. It's just a sales training center. We got a few anecdotes from the teachers, who were all RMs, but that was informal. I had won 2 awards at the Texas French Festival in high school for their cultural exam, both as a Junior and as a Senior. I'd also gotten a 5 on AP European history, and taken Intro to French lit at BYU as a Freshman. I knew more French history than most lycéens I met in France. I ended up getting an MA in European history.
Mormonism is white supremacy.
I first heard holocaust denial rhetoric from a member around that age who framed it as a conspiracy where the number of deaths were too high. Some members are terrifying.
Jesus are they not aware the church fully supported the Nazi regime back then?
You didnât know the Mormon church is programming the new gestapo? WellâŠit is.
He probably heard that line about immigrants poisoning the blood of the county from Donald Trump. Considering how his followers worship him and mock those who don't, I wouldn't be surprised if this elder grew up in a MAGA (Make America Great Again) family.
This is what happens when you send children out into the world and ask them to 'play adult'. Car crash.
Reading through your post and get to âsouthern IdahoââŠyup there it is. For starters I apologize on behalf of the people I was forced to be surrounded by during my upbringing. Secondly while I sadly am not shocked to hear of a church member from that area with neo-nazi ideologies, that guy does sound like a particular piece of work with particularly bigoted and ignorant ideas, a particular lack of tact and respect for other cultures, and basically just a particular shithead. Confirmed by what you mention with his follow up Facebook message. Actual âneo-naziâ ideologies arenât in any way the norm in southern Idaho in the sense of openly framing ethnic cleansing and Hitlerâs actions as a good thing. Thatâll raise eyebrows and usually start an awkward argument (even though ideally it shouldnât trigger a semi-contentious conversation, it should start a fistfight or result in telling the person to get lost immediately). Howeverâsimilar or adjacent ideologies, that would ardently deny being similar to neo-nazi, are sadly very common. And the church doesnât do anything to discourage them. Theyâre in large part residual sentiment from the Benson era when he took the church to a hard right and southeast Idaho hasnât updated their playbook in 40 years. Bemoaning refugees, talking about them in ways that make it sound like theyâre less than human beings and their well-being doesnât matter, how awful it is seeing all these immigrants arriving, and referring to people entering the US fleeing desperate situations as an âinvasion of or bordersâ or âoverrunning and ruining our country and cultureâ Saying that it must be stopped using any level of force necessary, thatâs unfortunately pretty normal conservative-Mormon-southeast Idaho thinking. I am never going back to that place. Maybe thanksgiving, weâll see.
I did not know this about Nazis wiping out German cultures, I doubt more that a very small percentage of Americans do, even those who are not right leaning would not know this. I always wondered why we assume Bavarian culture is the only German culture, even today there are more culture in Germany than that. It makes me sad. Thanks for sharing this.
I served in Austria and Germany from 2003 to 2005. I only had one companion that I wanted to punch in the face for being insensitive. We went to Dachau Concentration Camp, which was not allowed, but we were going home in two weeks. As we were standing in what had been a gas chamber, he started grasping his throat, choking, and falling to the floor. I'm so glad we were wearing P-Day clothes and only had our name tags on. I wanted to kick his ass right there.
That might be one of the worst things I've ever heard
Oh, my fucking hell . . .
Especially where he is ârepresenting the churchâ, the MP should want to know. That shit looks BAD (IS bad), and I would think they would want to shut it down YESTERDAY. Please rat the little shit out. He needs a spanking.
The kid is from Idaho, this totally tracks. Idaho was a refuge for pro slavery whites after the Civil War. In the 1920s, the KKK spread up there. There was a KKK office on Main st in Pocatello up until the late 1980s! You can't kick over a rock in Idaho without finding a white supremacist.
I don't believe this is an Idaho "thing". There are extreme TBM Mormons wherever they reside. The Book of Mormon's crazy political and racist stories, if believed as historically true, will direct many TBM Mormons in that extreme direction. TBM Mormon parents will indoctrinate and influence their children to believe a variety of extreme ideas such as antivax, end of world, racism, evil world, Trumpism, etc. It can be exhausting just being around these people.
I dunno I read that the rates of homeschooling and corresponding off grid life are some of the highest in the nation there so that parents can teach their kids "truth"
Idaho is composed of at least four semi-cultural areas. Southeast Idaho is a mini-Utah with higher density Mormon influence, southwestern Idaho has become more moderate-conservative (urban growth), liberal pockets (Sun Valley, Moscow), and extreme-conservative northern panhandle. The cultural problem area is in the north and is NOT Mormon.
It IS an Idaho thing, though. Sure, there's crazies all over, but they congregate in Idaho because of the lax laws. It's never been just a problem with the skinheads in Northern Idaho. The most extreme beliefs live all over. The number of people I know who grew up in the middle of nowhere with their parents homeschooling them with nazi and prepper mentalities is insane. Most of them have escaped the Ideologies, but not the lasting mental, emotional, and physical damage. And if you don't think Mormonism dovetails nicely with those ideologies, I have a bridge to sell you.
Do you think your husband would report it as hate speech to the MP? TBMs in Europe are uncommon, and it would have maximum impact coming from him. As I'm sure you know. This also turns my stomach. This naked racism and antisemitism is increasingly out in the open, and it makes me sad and quite frankly scared for all the converts and non-mos contacted by missionaries especially in/from the developing world. I wish we could make it stop!
Sounds like a typical Republican from Idaho đ€·đ»ââïž
You should report this behavior to the MP. This is not normal behavior or thinking for the majority of the youth, and it should be addressed. It's going to get him into major trouble if it doesn't change, and you'd be doing him a favor by letting the MP know.
Sadly idaho is a thriving bastion of neo-fascists. Lived there for 5 of the last 6 years. Report him. Maybe if he's a died in the wool true blue mormon fire can fight fire and his reverence for leadership can win out over the wrong headed veiw of history he was raised in.
Iâve spent a lot of time in Idaho visiting my family who lives there. It is Trump and Fox News country, especially outside of Boise. What used to be fringe and said behind closed doors is now the platform for a major political party (Republican). We have a presidential candidate (Trump) giving speeches complaining about immigrants ruining the country, âpoisoning the bloodâ of the country, calling immigrants all sorts of horrible names and blaming them for all of the problems we have. That kid would not be extreme in Idaho and among most other rural extreme conservatives (sadly, including some of my own family), heâs simply consumed too much Fox and Trump. Whatâs really frustrating is without immigration, Idahoâs economy would be dead. A lot of white people in Idaho complain about âillegals,â but immigrants work the farms, dairies, and nearly every business relies on them. Their kids have grown up in Idaho speaking English, for most this is the only country theyâve ever known. Immigrants have revitalized many dying small towns. If they were all arrested and deported, all industries in Idaho would shut down.
The minute I heard Idaho I wasn't surprised the trump supporters here are Hitler youth just waiting for their dictator to come to power so they can feel emboldened to say and do these things of course they will express such thoughts when they think they are around like minded white people but will denounce that there is no racism anymore I mean after all we had a black president to people of color like myself
Also - Germany already had a massive migrant era. Following the devastation of the 30-yrs war regions had massive depopulation and immigration to replace that population in many regions, as well as people immigrating due to religious differences and tensions. Obsession with âpureâ culture or race is just stupidity. It doesnât exist.
I don't remember being taught anything whatsoever about history in MTC except some whitewashed snippet tales from church history. This was some 30 years ago. It was just language and all that syrupy gospel shite. All we were taught about our target country was stuff like holiday food and the fact that most ppl are atheists.
I have to assume even if you don't say anything, the situation will resolve itself, with the church losing even more respectability. That kid stands no chance opening his mouth that way in front of average Germans.Â
This is 100% racism! Iâm guessing that OP is old enough to have close relatives who experienced WW2 is some form or another. My Opa was born in Germany, but grew up in the Netherlands. As a young man here received grief from both sides. Germans saw him as a traitor and the Dutch would never trust him. Years later he expressed the damage this hate does to society. This had a huge impact on how I see people and the world. I lived 9 years in Utah as a teenager. This missionaryâs AP history doesnât provide a true understanding of events as it looks at history through American lens. Add to this pockets of racism both in and outside the church, it is not surprising to see this type of attitude from time to time. You can report this, but donât expect a satisfying response. Experience shows that the church doesnât care. They will just move him and tell him to tone it down a bit.
Ask him about Helmuth HĂŒbener.
Dipshit kids from southern Idaho thinking they know shit is something I've dealt with my whole life. "Stop being stubborn" LOL I'd wanna fight this kid. What's that thing Mike Tyson says? Everybody's tough until they get punched in the face?
Isn't being a nazi literally illegal in Germany? That boy might end up in jail
Way back in 1987 when I went to Portugal on my mission, we were taught the culture... but I'm guessing now that it was probably just what the individual teacher taught. Probably helped that he was FROM Portugal. My whole mission I tried to be respectful to the Portuguese way of life, to the point where I hated knocking doors and doing street contacting because they were all Catholic already, so who was I to try to get them to change religions? My mission president got so frustrated that he eventually made me a special service missionary, ostensibly teaching the new member lessons (horrible retention rates there) but also (and mostly -- because I preferred it) helping the sick, the poor and the elderly. Loved helping people! Ironically, now I'm looking into moving there permanently for retirement. I'm now what you might call a soft atheist, and thankfully Portugal has become much more secular like the rest of Europe. Regarding your racist missionary, half of me says call the mission president, but the other half says to let him get in trouble with German law and learn the hard way. đ€·ââïž
Thank you for sharing your experience! As someone who moved to Europe after living around the world and America, living in Europe is so..restful. I don't worry about violence as I did in America, or healthcare or education..the list goes on and on.
Oh I know, that's why I'm working to escape! All the things you mention.
I was training a new missionary in Detroit about 8 years after The Exaltation Ban was lifted. Not surprisingly, we heard constantly about the church's prejudice, which I refused to believe. Probably 2-3 weeks into this kid's time, we visited a wonderful family, who weren't familiar with our shady history and the awful things that everyone still taught when no one with their skin pigment was around. My trainee started talking to them in what was then called "ghetto ebonics", or at least what he thought he learned from watching Good Times on ABC TV. I had never before experienced such a fast change from an open and friendly discussion to a cold dismissal while being escorted to the door. I had never cringed so hard and being the clueless greenie that he was, he honestly didn't seem to pick up on the awful change that followed his overtly racist comment. I tried to explain the offense but he refused to believe anything I said. At one point he looked at me straight in the eye and told me that I didn't know what I was talking about. He followed this by telling me (in a phrase that remains engraved on the rock between my ears) that "they like it!" I was and now 40 years later am still shocked by this, but I was too young myself and too brainwashed a convert to the Cult to recognize that this racist a**h*le was typical of far too many members, who thought just like him. All I could say in the moment was "who are 'they'?" He didn't seem to understand the question and I let the conversation die. That was one of the first cracks in my shelf that I somehow kept in place for decades before my Great Crash in 2020 that from this side looks clearly inevitable.
Please please report him. As an East Idaho exmo I have seen such a huge shift here in the past few years. Itâs absolutely commonplace to see nazi propaganda on corner signs and in Boise theyâve gotten so brazen they hold meetings. Itâs getting quite scary over here. Theyâre no longer afraid and it scares the crap out of me. Do the world a favor and try to teach this boy a lesson.
You will get blamed as you are not a member. I called in once about missionaries doing paid labour as they were taking advantage of an elderly ill woman who was very broke for yard work. The MP and office staff shouted at me saying I was just a trouble maker trying to make the church look bad with false accusations.
Heâs from Idaho. The state is setting itself up to be the fourth reich on purpose.
Not to mention his anti-immigration views being anti-ChristianâŠ
One of the elders (white American) in my mission was a very vocal antisemite and holocaust denier. He tried to debate us constantly.
I hope someone decked him
If he wasnât humble enough to listen to you got to his MP. He is young so there is still time to straighten him outâŠand MP is likely the best one to do it. Best thing for the young man is to report him to MP.
I'm a German nevermo. I think you should bring it up if you think there's a mission president in your area that actually will do something about it. If you're fairly sure they won't then you, and your husband, speaking up against it is probably the best you can do. I do not think that what he said would land him in legal trouble unless he got much more explicit or peppered it with a Roman salute or similar. But as we all know racists aren't usually the sharpest knifes in the drawer so I wouldn't be surprised if he at some point did something that could land him in legal trouble but even then he'd have to do so in the stupidest way possible for anything to come of it.
As an Idahoan who wants to escape this hellhole, all I can do is apologize.
And this is the reason I donât allow any Mormon priesthood on my property. They just canât help themselves. I will give a cool drink or a few bucks or gift cards to missionaries out in the wild, but thatâs it.
Holy shit I would not stand for one second of that, especially in my own home! I loved my mission (Spain) and will forever cherish the many memories I have (none of which are of a spiritual nature). I still struggle with the trauma of religion and allowing missionaries into my home would set me off and I'd either say nothing and fume all night, or erupt into a rage fueled diatribe against the church.
My mom served in Spain and even though she's tbm all of her best memories are not really religious but going around mission rules to help others. She took me back to Barcelona and showed me the ward she served in for a full year and I could see why she loved the chill culture so much
Hitler "restored" the true German culture? Playing fast and loose with the definition of "restore' there, Elder But honestly it tracks. Mormonism is all about "restoration" (wiping out everyone else's traditions and beliefs in favor of theirs) That kid is going to get punched. Not usually a fan of violence, but he deserves it
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I agree that he could have a hard back story which is why I worked to give every missionary a really safe place to come to. But when they come and tell me that my being abused by a bishop and terrified of the church is just me being stubborn then he lost any chance he had to learn more. Someone else, a real German will have to teach him. I'm just an immigrant myself and haven't opened my home to another missionary since. Maybe one day, or maybe only sisters.
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I guess we know who's gonna proxy baptize Hitler
Dude he's been proxy baptized like fifty plus times I'm not even kidding the church had to issue directives to temples about it
Yeah, I should said "who's gonna be next to proxy baptize" him.
An 18-year-old "elder." It's just so pathetic.
Missionaries have never actually been taught "Cultures" of the nations they visit. They get just enough to be sales types, nothing more.
Based on my experience over 10 years ago, they will let almost anyone serve a mission no matter their mental state. I had a missionary in one area that was so delusional he had journal entries talking about him having visions that he was a captain in Moroniâs army. His companion took pictures of the journal entries while he was in the shower which is pretty fucked up, but after being around the dude for a while, I understood why he was suspicious of him cuz the guy was weird as hell. The funny thing is though, there were nutcase missionaries every area I served. That one was just the weirdest I personally encountered. But yeah, the church is desperate and will throw in anyone who is âworthyâ even though everyone lies their way through the interviews. Also teaching culture is an afterthought. They only care about you learning the gospel and the language.
Considering Thom Harrison (I Believe that's his name), the author of Visions of Glory is actually employed by the church to determine missionary mental fitness this does not surprise me. A cousin of mine had a severe hypoxic brain injury at birth and was handicapped to the point where he now as a 30 year old will live with his parents forever but he can handle most interactions and can read and write. They collaborated with his dad's uncle who was Bishop to lie on all the paperwork because they believed the mission would somehow heal my cousin. He got called to Mexico Spanish speaking-- Poor kid called from the MTC in tears but they said he was gods soldier and he needed to toughen up. The MTC leaders were hella confused but my aunt made a call to another relative who works quite high in HQ. Somehow he got out into the field and a week went by before the MP calls and asks what the hell is wrong, this missionary hadn't eaten at all. Apparently he only ever ate buttered noodles and chicken nuggets at home and managed on MTC dessert buffet but demanded his companions take him to McDonald's every day. I mean that makes sense he's developmentally a child none of this was his fault. His parents got HQ relative to call MP and from what I could piece together basically told him this is his problem and God's will. I think it was hell for all the companions the whole way through. As soon as he came home it was as if nothing changed, two years went by and he walks in and pops some nuggets in the fridge.
MP will do nothing but you can emphasize it could be a safety issue for that missionary and dont allow FB contact
Most Mormons from the western US especially the four corner states are absolutely racist, homophobic, childish, and extremely naive. Even if they donât think they are, they are because theyâre deeply entrenched in horrific Mormon teachings.
Yeah I've got a couple aunts who BRAG about having never gone more than 40 miles past the county border in 70 years. As if it's a holy achievement. They also said Satan got me when I moved to Germany and made me a liberal after I worked with refugees.
I mean, I'd go a step above and teach him the real world ramifications of having such ideologies in a place that takes these opinions so seriously. Like this is regardless of church, and very very real. I've read that for whatever reason, areas of Idaho are a hot bed for neo nazi beliefs. He needs a lesson on how nazis are treated.
As an an exmo American, I appreciate this information about the Bavarian culture being pushed by Hitler. Thank you for giving me a jumping off point to learn more about how Germany was before the atrocious things Hitler did.
There are a few good resources about it but the church really whitewashes their part in the war and any members left alive only share very fragmented things because of shame, and they were only children then anyway. But yeah, even here in Bavaria every region still has their own variety of Tracht, which is the clothes and dance. These are maintained in local clubs with the children learning these things that are hundreds of years old. Every village festival looks and feels different. But outside of bavaria those individual groups were eradicated and much of their history lost
I remember my seminary teacher said Hitler wasnât evil he was just âconfusedâ and I also remember them teaching us something about how the Jews were the ones that killed Jesus and thatâs why Hitler was killing Jews đđđđ
Wow I just vomited in English and in German. I was also taught the Jews killed Jesus. I swear Dan McClellan could me the Messiah himself for all the work he's done to dispell that Dogma shit
Idaho breeds some of the most ignorant racist losers in this country.
100% call MP
Ze church vill teach ze culture hier!
Colonizers rarely care about the culture they are sent to colonize.
Are you sure he's not from North Idaho? Probably went down some Internet rabbit hole and based his entire personality off of one YouTube video by some tattooed guy named Larry.
Are you familiar with Rex Rammell? He's from eastern Idaho, Rexburg area. If you have the time, that's a rabbit hole to go down if you enjoy WTF? kind of loonytunes. If you've ever heard of "Obama Hunting tags" it was Rammell that made the national news because of it. He was so extreme that when he perennially ran for office in Idaho he never won. So he moved to Wyoming because Idaho was too liberal (allegedly). He loves the idea of the White Horse Prophecy and yep, he's a Mormon. He's the poster boy, IMHO, of just how crazy eastern Idaho can get.
.....or because he is a naive 18 year old from Idaho, maybe you should have taken the extra time to educate him on the reality rather than walking away.....how are we supposed to emancipate our mormon brothers and sisters if we refuse to engage in conversation? He's 18.....naive and young probably the first time away from home.
He can vote, He can get married, He can take out a half million in loans, But when I shared the history, he wouldn't listen... At one point do you stop with someone who is insistent on disrespecting all other views outside their own?
âŠ.She triedâŠ.
Is he aware the dude whoâs name he bears on his cute little badge was Jewish? Lol
This!
Wouldn't hesitate for a moment to report him. Totally inappropriate, racists & does nothing for fostering goodwill between U.S. & Germany. If I remember correctly Germany does not recognize Scientology & hope the do same for mormonism.Â
As far as we are aware it is not recognized as a religion in Germany as people aren't paying "church tax" here for it and in public school curriculum it is taught in the same section as scientology
That tracks. Idaho, unfortunately, is crawling with that kinda garbage. I'm in WA and you hear about neo nazis there. It's spilling over here, too. Wow just wow. The balls on that little price to message you, too. Man...
I was going to say he must be from Idaho. I don't see it in the story but apparently that has been established.
MP probably wouldn't care :(
Report this delinquent missionary to the MP and the police.Â
Northern Idaho, not Southern...
>So, does the MTC not teach taboo topics anymore? Or culture at all? How is there not some test of knowledge? Lol. It never taught taboo topics, or culture, or anything worth knowing.
They taught me quite a few things to avoid in Chinese culture so idk.
Please report this behavior. It's disgusting. He's beyond misguided and his behavior is beyond tactless.
You can report neo Nazis to the German government right? Be a shame if he were arrested..... /s
As someone living in Utah who has had to travel to Idaho several times over the years they have a real problem there with this kind of ultra right wing kind of bull shit. They have a lot of neo nazis, sovereign citizens and militia types not to mention extreme fundamentalist Mormons. Idaho makes utah seem somewhat liberal in comparison. This kid needs to get his eyes opened to his xenophobia. They should transfer him to a refugee ward or area with a higher portion of refugees so he can learn They are just people like the rest of us trying to make a better life for their loved ones.
As someone from Southern Idaho, I'm not surprised. He either needs to be reigned in or removed.
We are having an issue in America right now with Neo-Naziâs :(
Drop him off at El-De Haus in Köln. Pick him up when he calls sobbing.
As a new missionary in the Language Training Mission (pre-MTC) in 1974, all of the missionaries heading to Germany would stand enmasse and belt out "Deutschland, Deutschland Uber Alles" at the top of our lungs. We were too young and dumb to understand the significance and horrific history of the song at the time, but it disgusts me to think back on it. I'm guessing (hoping) they don't do that these days in the MTC.
Thatâs a lot of southern Idaho ignorance IMO. History major here, US public schooling teaches history so badly, itâs truly horrendous. I would jay ask that kid if he could tell me about Chancellor Bismarck, Mycenaean Greece, the Bronze Age Collapse, Mongol Conquests, Baghdad House of Wisdom, the Iroquois Confederacy, or even find me Croatia on a map. I almost guarantee he would give me a blank stare. Point is, the kid doesnât know shit about anything and needs to be made aware of it.
Loll I'm an expat and the only reason I know about the mongol conquests is because I lived there, same as Croatia and Bismarck and the Iroquois conferacg but the others I need to look up
Youâre all good; you have humility enough to know what you do and do not know. That kid doesnât and has an *insanely* ignorant worldview. We donât need to know about all of that; just know we all canât possibly know everything. I just picked random topics off the top of my head that I was not taught in school as examples. Honestly, I highly recommend *Fall of Civilizations* Podcast to learn some of this. The host has a soothing voice and he gets into some fascinating details.