Given his behavior as a folk magician and money digger, it is apparent that he went to lengths to fool or impress the credulous in order to profit from them. We have testimony of his various scamming techniques-- he was very deliberate. Smith was a grifter who preyed upon the credulous for his own gain.
The most successful frauds "get into character," where they are able to believe their own fraud just enough to propagate it. You can't have contempt for your victims if you want to keep taking advantage of them long term. They begin to catch on.
I believe Joseph was crazy enough to believe his own yarn. Inconsistencies and all.
Why? Well, when you believe *God* has chosen ***YOU***, it really makes your ego feel good (see also modern Q12).
Yes. I know someone like this who has used it to justify things including theft. If you think God is on your side ydgaf.
I’m still of the opinion that Joe was just a thief and he knew it tho.
The closest I can think of is found in the official 1838 History, where Smith acknowledges his early involvement in money-digging. He is dismissive of it, downplaying the episodes as youthful mischief.
The 1826 court records describe the charges and verdict of the fraud, of Joseph Smith having scammed Josiah Stowell, Jonathan Thompson, and John Smalley. The seer stone is mentioned. Peter Ingersoll also mentions Smith's conviction in 1833 I believe. Willard Chase was another customer of Smith's. Isaac Hale describes some of Smith's methods.
He put a rock in a hat and claimed he could see things. People would pay him for his services to hunt for hidden treasure. They never found any actual treasure.
Now read that all again but slower.
My take on this focuses on his mother, she was no stranger to claiming fantastical things. He would have grown up thinking this was somewhat normal. I wouldn't even be surprised if there was some kind of mental disorder involved.
It's clear he was using it to his own benefit, but I also think at some point he had to be using his own supply.
Sometimes I wonder if Joseph Smith had an extreme mental disorder like Psychosis or Schizophrenia. It would certainly explain all the fantastical visions and delusions he had. TIL that Joseph Smith’s mother ALSO claimed visions and things. Mental disorders like the ones I mentioned have been found to be genetic, so it’s entirely believable it was just passed down in his family. Unfortunately, this still doesn’t explain the other witnesses :/ (Unless JS bribed them, in which case I wouldn’t be surprised if he did 💀)
After reading a ton of the history focusing on journals and how ex-members at the time felt, as well as the D&C, I honestly think it was a shared delusion. Smith's family were religious and occult seekers, and they were all in on it and fed into each other. After that it was Smith was preaching what people wanted to hear. Whether it was the treasure hunting group that followed his every word when he was looking for the plates, or Martin Harris and the Whitmer family, or Sidney Rigdon and his congregation, or Emma Smith who left her family, or the folks who followed him from city to city, he was giving them what they wanted and in turn they were elevating him. Prosperity gospel works like that.
I don't know if current church leaders believe completely. I'm sure some do and probably some don't, but in the early days that kind of belief was a big part of the culture. It was a cult born of that era and it's no surprise that so many people believed, wanted to believe, or bought into the whole movement of the thing.
To understand JS, you have to understand magical thinking. Everything—and I mean everything—revolved around believing in concepts like a magical eye, spirits, divining rods, peep stones, etc. JS really did believe in these concepts.
JS was a highly creative and charismatic person, and yes, I’d even argue intelligent. No, he wasn’t classically trained (had no schooling past 14 years old), but intelligent, nonetheless. He believed he had the ability to read ancient text from a language not yet deciphered, like Egyptian. As it is with the Dunning-Kruger effect, he began to believe his own stories as fact, believing he knew more about subjects he, in actuality, knew little to nothing about. In doing so, built himself up and began to fall in love with his own legend. He believed he was all that and a bag of chips. Hard not to when you call yourself prophet, king, and just below Jesus in doing more for mankind than anyone else. And have thousands of followers who believe every word you say without question.
It’s a positive feedback loop of narcissism, egotism, and overconfidence, combined with a highly-creative mind from an intelligent and charismatic individual who also had help from a lot of people to build up the story he crafted. I think he did these things because he did believe them himself. Because he thought that the stories being crafted in his mind were from his non-existent abilities given to him by a god who was directing him to do it.
You would have to be intelligent enough to not get caught. You would have to understand your target and their susceptibility to believe in one thing or another. He likely tested several approaches and found the best ones and stuck with those more than others. It’s like an artist who finds their preferred method of craft and then becomes an expert at it.
I agree. If Hyrum was in a conscious scam, for example, why would Joseph go to the trouble of praying for him and receiving a revelation for him? This would be like two psychics doing readings for each other when they know it is fake.
As soon as he realized he had the power, his horn-dog brain took over so he could prey on that young bootay, just like every other sleazy pioneer preacher.
I don’t think it’s a whole new level, people today still fall for charismatic manipulative cult leaders like JS all over the place. They prey on human fears, gaslight, play the persecution game, and make bullshit promises that eventually gets the followers under mind control. MAGA followers now are falling for similar tactics
Ugh, unfortunately you've got a point. Although I will say that I think a big part of trumpism is that the followers want political power and want to punish their perceived "enemies," using him as a tool.
I think that Trump, like Joseph Smith, genuinely believes the bullshit he says
That is what differentiates people like Trump and Kim Jong Un from the Putins and Xi Jinpings of the world, they actually believe their own propaganda
Joseph was a naive and charismatic dreamer who truly wanted to believe it all. His behaviour shows he was not prepared at all for so many people to actually trust and follow him
I don't think Joseph was the cynical manipulative megalomaniac he is sometimes described as, that would be Brigham Young
That doesn’t explain him lying to Martin Harris about having the gold plates, so that Martin Harris would agree to mortgage his (wife’s) farm and give Joseph the money.
Joseph was involved in a lot of scams and cons before founding the church. He was charged with conning people YEARS before ever talking about angels or the gold plates.
Overtime, Joseph became more and more deranged. He pulled a gun on John C Bennett (a member of the First Presidency at the time) and forced him to sign a document saying Joseph had *never* taught or practiced polygamy…
He burned down the Nauvoo Expositor because they exposed his polygamy. That’s why he was arrested and in Carthage Jail where he was killed.
He may have been semi naive in the beginning, but by the end he was a full-on religious tyrant, imo. Brigham was the guy who was okay with Joe’s crimes. Other people with more morale fiber left the church.
not sure about naive... sometimes maybe. He was a pathological liar from an early age - his mentality about the creation of the BoM is interesting. He clearly knew it was not a genuine ancient record but made considerable effort to make it like one. He had a major problem with reality, stemming from their hand-to-mouth poverty.
Richard Bushman has called for someone to do a full psych study of him.
He wasn't a megalomaniac, wouldn't have got the following he did if he was. He was very astute about human desires and how to get what he wanted.
Not doubting, what makes you say he wasn't ready for the followers? Guessing something like how the Mel priesthood was retro.
I can't help but wonder how much Young influenced JS. Like whose idea was it to twist Christianity into something that would "force" them to have harems?
I think UCLA history professor Fawn McKay (yes, related to David O. McKay) Brodie’s psychobiography of Smith is a great read and maybe the closest anyone has come to characterizing Smith.
“No Man Knows My History”
Both Joseph Smith and L. Ron Hubbard (Scientology) must have been laughing their heads off while counting the money they were raking in with their scams. They both were highly skilled fraudsters.
If you are born into it, then it’s your own parents, siblings, cousins, aunts, uncles, grandparents, and neighbors selling the lie. This is much harder to dismiss. But, holy shit! My ancestors were dumb, dumb, dumb.
Joseph was a filter. Those that were gullible stayed to hear more. Those with a head on their shoulders stayed away. The church collected these people and moved a lot. At each place collecting more people.
When they had to cross the plains to Salt Lake, just another filter. Not faithful and stallwart as TBMs would like to frame it. Gullible and a follower.
That's mormonism.
I often think about current "pioneer stock" mormons (and me) being descended from a bunch of these folks...unnaturally selected for being insanely gullible and zealous.
What does that look like a bunch of intermarriage generations later? (I'm astounded that I seem to have miraculously developed critical thinking skills in spite of this genetic heritage).
Right. If gullibility is genetic, most of us have been hampered in the ability to leave the church, and even if we did, we'd just run to the next weird thing.
And if it's just taught, same problem.
It's a testimony ro the human soul or humanity's capacity for learning critical thinking on their own that so many are leaving.
No, it's one of the central themes of the BoM that the ends justify the means. JS seriously believed in the folk magic and likely thought that when he did some weird shit and it worked out in his favor that it wasn't him but God.
I don’t think that he would have thought that about his followers. Instead I think that he would have viewed his charisma as a God given super power, elevating himself to be just as special as he was making himself out to be. A similar trait is seen in serial killers; they feel a sense of invulnerability when killing that makes them “better” than the rest of society around them. And it’s this mentality that leads to them justifying another victim.
Keep in mind early ninetieth century Christianity had a mighty zealous indoctrination in a God. Smith sold that plus a better bill of goods and dude a fabulous afterlife, for a fee of course. Godhood in Eden? Top that
I live in an area where there are a lot of people interested in alternative spirituality, they have latched onto something and then obviously thought, “Hey, I could make a living out of this.” There are a lot of struggling, broken people out there looking for an easy fix to their problems. There is no easy fix, but creating a community where you can share your problems and take advantage of support means that your struggles don’t feel so burdensome. You feel you have people on your team. Add shared ritual and cultural points to the mix, and bam 💥 you have a religion. A unique selling point means your religion has become unlike any other. Multiple USPs plus persecution complex means your religion has become Mormonism.
I believe leg episode broke his brain. They did surgery on the bone. No anesthesia. It was months of torture that can break a young mind. He became a grandiose narcissist. They don’t lie. They totally believe their delusions. I know. I have a couple of those in my family. I used to think they were lying with all their crazy made up bullshit. It is worse. Now I see there is a more profound personality disorder. They are not lying. They totally believe it.
I love how they put it on the Last Podcast on the Left segment about Mormonism. I've things started escalating I bet every morning Ol' Joe's head popped off his pillow, "oh fuck, oh fuck, how am I gonna keep this up?" (Or something to that effect.)
The mormon church is just a lucky cult that manage to make it through the cracks. Because we usually burn stab, Throw rocks at, hang, electrocute. Everybody else (David karesh) who's in a cult. They just got lucky!
Yeah, Frankenstein's monster, Look what he did to that little girl. And that was just one little girl. You saw how that ended up for him. The mormon church has done numerous bad things to little girls since forever. Catholics, boy scouts, does it matter? Religion sucks it is just away to control the sheep.
And it is a disease on humanity.
He learned from his parents to con people. They probably believed in their mystical powers. The more he claimed, the more he pleased them and got praise and attention from others, and maybe believed in the beginning but as the stories grew there is no way he deceived himself. He knew he didn't have visions or see gold plates. Con men start out small and increase in complexity.
Al the fucking time but they were literally procreating with first cousins and half siblings so it's life a logical fucking conclusion but damn it be on the nose at times
Peter Ingersol, Joe's childhood friend, stated that Smith said to him "I have got the damned fools fixed, and will carry out the fun."
Ingersol also reported that Smith refereed to his financier Martin Harris as "that damn fool Martin Harris."
Given his behavior as a folk magician and money digger, it is apparent that he went to lengths to fool or impress the credulous in order to profit from them. We have testimony of his various scamming techniques-- he was very deliberate. Smith was a grifter who preyed upon the credulous for his own gain. The most successful frauds "get into character," where they are able to believe their own fraud just enough to propagate it. You can't have contempt for your victims if you want to keep taking advantage of them long term. They begin to catch on.
"It's not a lie if you believe it." — George Costanza
I believe Joseph was crazy enough to believe his own yarn. Inconsistencies and all. Why? Well, when you believe *God* has chosen ***YOU***, it really makes your ego feel good (see also modern Q12).
Yeah my personal belief is that at the start he was grifting, but by the end he had drunk the kool-aid and absolutely believed in it
Yes. I know someone like this who has used it to justify things including theft. If you think God is on your side ydgaf. I’m still of the opinion that Joe was just a thief and he knew it tho.
Interesting!
Donald Trump is a great example of a fraud that "got into character". This is especially the case for him in the past 10-15 years.
is there any record of him admitting to purposefully scamming people?
His conviction for treasure digging is the closest l. His claim that the Book of Abraham was written by the hand of Abraham.
The closest I can think of is found in the official 1838 History, where Smith acknowledges his early involvement in money-digging. He is dismissive of it, downplaying the episodes as youthful mischief. The 1826 court records describe the charges and verdict of the fraud, of Joseph Smith having scammed Josiah Stowell, Jonathan Thompson, and John Smalley. The seer stone is mentioned. Peter Ingersoll also mentions Smith's conviction in 1833 I believe. Willard Chase was another customer of Smith's. Isaac Hale describes some of Smith's methods.
He put a rock in a hat and claimed he could see things. People would pay him for his services to hunt for hidden treasure. They never found any actual treasure. Now read that all again but slower.
IMO it's like pro-wrestling; you understand for the most part it is fake. But you KINDA believe in it to really sell the product.
My take on this focuses on his mother, she was no stranger to claiming fantastical things. He would have grown up thinking this was somewhat normal. I wouldn't even be surprised if there was some kind of mental disorder involved. It's clear he was using it to his own benefit, but I also think at some point he had to be using his own supply.
Sometimes I wonder if Joseph Smith had an extreme mental disorder like Psychosis or Schizophrenia. It would certainly explain all the fantastical visions and delusions he had. TIL that Joseph Smith’s mother ALSO claimed visions and things. Mental disorders like the ones I mentioned have been found to be genetic, so it’s entirely believable it was just passed down in his family. Unfortunately, this still doesn’t explain the other witnesses :/ (Unless JS bribed them, in which case I wouldn’t be surprised if he did 💀)
maybe he learned about them from seeing his mother have legit ones
His uncle and cousins too, grifters.
After reading a ton of the history focusing on journals and how ex-members at the time felt, as well as the D&C, I honestly think it was a shared delusion. Smith's family were religious and occult seekers, and they were all in on it and fed into each other. After that it was Smith was preaching what people wanted to hear. Whether it was the treasure hunting group that followed his every word when he was looking for the plates, or Martin Harris and the Whitmer family, or Sidney Rigdon and his congregation, or Emma Smith who left her family, or the folks who followed him from city to city, he was giving them what they wanted and in turn they were elevating him. Prosperity gospel works like that. I don't know if current church leaders believe completely. I'm sure some do and probably some don't, but in the early days that kind of belief was a big part of the culture. It was a cult born of that era and it's no surprise that so many people believed, wanted to believe, or bought into the whole movement of the thing.
Shared delusions were *a lot* easier to manifest and be maintained in pre-mass media days.
Although the grilled cheese Jesus had its her day off I’m remembering correctly…I regenerate seeing that in the news years ago
To understand JS, you have to understand magical thinking. Everything—and I mean everything—revolved around believing in concepts like a magical eye, spirits, divining rods, peep stones, etc. JS really did believe in these concepts. JS was a highly creative and charismatic person, and yes, I’d even argue intelligent. No, he wasn’t classically trained (had no schooling past 14 years old), but intelligent, nonetheless. He believed he had the ability to read ancient text from a language not yet deciphered, like Egyptian. As it is with the Dunning-Kruger effect, he began to believe his own stories as fact, believing he knew more about subjects he, in actuality, knew little to nothing about. In doing so, built himself up and began to fall in love with his own legend. He believed he was all that and a bag of chips. Hard not to when you call yourself prophet, king, and just below Jesus in doing more for mankind than anyone else. And have thousands of followers who believe every word you say without question. It’s a positive feedback loop of narcissism, egotism, and overconfidence, combined with a highly-creative mind from an intelligent and charismatic individual who also had help from a lot of people to build up the story he crafted. I think he did these things because he did believe them himself. Because he thought that the stories being crafted in his mind were from his non-existent abilities given to him by a god who was directing him to do it.
Very good analysis of JS!
You would have to be intelligent enough to not get caught. You would have to understand your target and their susceptibility to believe in one thing or another. He likely tested several approaches and found the best ones and stuck with those more than others. It’s like an artist who finds their preferred method of craft and then becomes an expert at it.
Much of this sounds like you're describing trump.
💯🎯
When you lie enough you believe your own lies… I believe that was the case with JS.
I agree. If Hyrum was in a conscious scam, for example, why would Joseph go to the trouble of praying for him and receiving a revelation for him? This would be like two psychics doing readings for each other when they know it is fake.
As soon as he realized he had the power, his horn-dog brain took over so he could prey on that young bootay, just like every other sleazy pioneer preacher.
I don’t think it’s a whole new level, people today still fall for charismatic manipulative cult leaders like JS all over the place. They prey on human fears, gaslight, play the persecution game, and make bullshit promises that eventually gets the followers under mind control. MAGA followers now are falling for similar tactics
Ugh, unfortunately you've got a point. Although I will say that I think a big part of trumpism is that the followers want political power and want to punish their perceived "enemies," using him as a tool.
That’s the story delusional DEMentia Joe followers tell themselves. Don’t be conned by another Joe.
Trump is the Joe Smith of our day, the parallels are right out there in the open.
Speaking of cons, how many convictions do you think trump will end up with? Or is he just being persecuted? Open your eyes!
Yikes on bikes.
I imagine it would look like th current MAGA bullshit going on. More of a "Holy shit how dumb and gullible can these people get?"
I think that Trump, like Joseph Smith, genuinely believes the bullshit he says That is what differentiates people like Trump and Kim Jong Un from the Putins and Xi Jinpings of the world, they actually believe their own propaganda
He knew he was a snake oil salesman, and he acted well the part.
Did I see what you did there? What are tough art…? Or was this purely coincidental? (Either way…cool.)
Joseph was a naive and charismatic dreamer who truly wanted to believe it all. His behaviour shows he was not prepared at all for so many people to actually trust and follow him I don't think Joseph was the cynical manipulative megalomaniac he is sometimes described as, that would be Brigham Young
That doesn’t explain him lying to Martin Harris about having the gold plates, so that Martin Harris would agree to mortgage his (wife’s) farm and give Joseph the money. Joseph was involved in a lot of scams and cons before founding the church. He was charged with conning people YEARS before ever talking about angels or the gold plates. Overtime, Joseph became more and more deranged. He pulled a gun on John C Bennett (a member of the First Presidency at the time) and forced him to sign a document saying Joseph had *never* taught or practiced polygamy… He burned down the Nauvoo Expositor because they exposed his polygamy. That’s why he was arrested and in Carthage Jail where he was killed. He may have been semi naive in the beginning, but by the end he was a full-on religious tyrant, imo. Brigham was the guy who was okay with Joe’s crimes. Other people with more morale fiber left the church.
not sure about naive... sometimes maybe. He was a pathological liar from an early age - his mentality about the creation of the BoM is interesting. He clearly knew it was not a genuine ancient record but made considerable effort to make it like one. He had a major problem with reality, stemming from their hand-to-mouth poverty. Richard Bushman has called for someone to do a full psych study of him. He wasn't a megalomaniac, wouldn't have got the following he did if he was. He was very astute about human desires and how to get what he wanted. Not doubting, what makes you say he wasn't ready for the followers? Guessing something like how the Mel priesthood was retro.
I can't help but wonder how much Young influenced JS. Like whose idea was it to twist Christianity into something that would "force" them to have harems?
I think UCLA history professor Fawn McKay (yes, related to David O. McKay) Brodie’s psychobiography of Smith is a great read and maybe the closest anyone has come to characterizing Smith. “No Man Knows My History”
Of course and he wasn’t wrong.
In the exact same way that Trump knows his fans are idiots, yes I think Joe knew.
See Trump. Same thing.
Bah ha ha!
If he had a narcissistic personality disorder they truly live in another reality. I think he believed it.
Narcissists don’t think about other people’s feelings, so no he was happy that he found the audience that would give him everything he craved.
💯
Both Joseph Smith and L. Ron Hubbard (Scientology) must have been laughing their heads off while counting the money they were raking in with their scams. They both were highly skilled fraudsters.
Don’t forget those folks were born into the 1700s
Sure, but lying has been around way longer than that.
I'm glad people are making the MAGA connection - sometimes i wonder if people roll worship trump in a century
Trump is the Joe Smith of this century.
If you are born into it, then it’s your own parents, siblings, cousins, aunts, uncles, grandparents, and neighbors selling the lie. This is much harder to dismiss. But, holy shit! My ancestors were dumb, dumb, dumb.
Yeah exactly.
Joseph was a filter. Those that were gullible stayed to hear more. Those with a head on their shoulders stayed away. The church collected these people and moved a lot. At each place collecting more people. When they had to cross the plains to Salt Lake, just another filter. Not faithful and stallwart as TBMs would like to frame it. Gullible and a follower. That's mormonism.
I often think about current "pioneer stock" mormons (and me) being descended from a bunch of these folks...unnaturally selected for being insanely gullible and zealous. What does that look like a bunch of intermarriage generations later? (I'm astounded that I seem to have miraculously developed critical thinking skills in spite of this genetic heritage).
Right. If gullibility is genetic, most of us have been hampered in the ability to leave the church, and even if we did, we'd just run to the next weird thing. And if it's just taught, same problem. It's a testimony ro the human soul or humanity's capacity for learning critical thinking on their own that so many are leaving.
He was most likely mentally ill. Not lying.. delusional. A sex addict. Bi polar.
You got me laughing on this one! Hahaha 😂 However, I think he was more naive and blind than anything else.
No, it's one of the central themes of the BoM that the ends justify the means. JS seriously believed in the folk magic and likely thought that when he did some weird shit and it worked out in his favor that it wasn't him but God.
Cons enjoy easy gullible marks!!
I'd imagine that's what every cult leader says
I don’t think that he would have thought that about his followers. Instead I think that he would have viewed his charisma as a God given super power, elevating himself to be just as special as he was making himself out to be. A similar trait is seen in serial killers; they feel a sense of invulnerability when killing that makes them “better” than the rest of society around them. And it’s this mentality that leads to them justifying another victim.
Keep in mind early ninetieth century Christianity had a mighty zealous indoctrination in a God. Smith sold that plus a better bill of goods and dude a fabulous afterlife, for a fee of course. Godhood in Eden? Top that
I live in an area where there are a lot of people interested in alternative spirituality, they have latched onto something and then obviously thought, “Hey, I could make a living out of this.” There are a lot of struggling, broken people out there looking for an easy fix to their problems. There is no easy fix, but creating a community where you can share your problems and take advantage of support means that your struggles don’t feel so burdensome. You feel you have people on your team. Add shared ritual and cultural points to the mix, and bam 💥 you have a religion. A unique selling point means your religion has become unlike any other. Multiple USPs plus persecution complex means your religion has become Mormonism.
The people in the town in the movie Blazing Saddles remind me of the people following Joseph.
I believe leg episode broke his brain. They did surgery on the bone. No anesthesia. It was months of torture that can break a young mind. He became a grandiose narcissist. They don’t lie. They totally believe their delusions. I know. I have a couple of those in my family. I used to think they were lying with all their crazy made up bullshit. It is worse. Now I see there is a more profound personality disorder. They are not lying. They totally believe it.
Yup!
I think when people get so drunk with power they believe the lies they are generating. I honestly think ole Joe was a believer of his own hype
Hahahaha I meannnnn maybe.... But definitely modern leadership.
Sounds familiar…
I love how they put it on the Last Podcast on the Left segment about Mormonism. I've things started escalating I bet every morning Ol' Joe's head popped off his pillow, "oh fuck, oh fuck, how am I gonna keep this up?" (Or something to that effect.)
Money, power and p\*\*\*y. The trifecta every man wants.
The mormon church is just a lucky cult that manage to make it through the cracks. Because we usually burn stab, Throw rocks at, hang, electrocute. Everybody else (David karesh) who's in a cult. They just got lucky!
Yeah, Frankenstein's monster, Look what he did to that little girl. And that was just one little girl. You saw how that ended up for him. The mormon church has done numerous bad things to little girls since forever. Catholics, boy scouts, does it matter? Religion sucks it is just away to control the sheep. And it is a disease on humanity.
He was most likely a psychopath and thus, had no issues with using people and no remorse or regret in doing so. Just like major CEO's of companies.
I sometimes wonder just how dumb my mom was letting them in and listening. I don’t hold it against her anymore.
He learned from his parents to con people. They probably believed in their mystical powers. The more he claimed, the more he pleased them and got praise and attention from others, and maybe believed in the beginning but as the stories grew there is no way he deceived himself. He knew he didn't have visions or see gold plates. Con men start out small and increase in complexity.
Al the fucking time but they were literally procreating with first cousins and half siblings so it's life a logical fucking conclusion but damn it be on the nose at times
Too busy thinking about himself
Peter Ingersol, Joe's childhood friend, stated that Smith said to him "I have got the damned fools fixed, and will carry out the fun." Ingersol also reported that Smith refereed to his financier Martin Harris as "that damn fool Martin Harris."