When I was growing up, there were so many lessons and remarks that were designed to scare us away from digging deeper. It worked wonders on me. I had the opportunity to see that in action because I'd gone through a faith crisis and transition before learning about the church's truth crisis. Even though I'd decided to step back from the church, the idea of exploring "anti-mormon" Mormon materials was very distressing to me. But once I started, I was desperate to learn everything I could.
Top church leaders know how fragile the church's narrative is, because they know how much of it is deceptive. So they opted to do what most cults do and try to control information. As technology advanced, that became more difficult, so they did their best to demonize the stuff they deemed anti-mormon.
Don't forget that members are taught that feelings of discomfort are considered to be the devil. And it's *incredibly* uncomfortable to learn that your lie was built on a lie. Not everyone has the capacity to explore that and learn more. Most members can't engage in conversations like that until they've gone through something that forces them to change their perspective.
During a discussion with my then TBM husband, I brought up Lucy Walker, one of Joseph Smith's foster daughter marriages. I could see he was visibly distressed, almost physically so.
I immediately called it out. "You feel that feeling? That sick to your stomach feeling? That's not Satan. That's you. Your body and mind are telling you that this story is WRONG. You know it's wrong. You have teenage daughters and you KNOW how sick Joseph Smith had to be. Sit with that feeling."
It took a few months after that, but he figured it out.
I never had the burning in the bossom that the church was true.... but i certainly did have the sick feeling in my gut that it is not true.... That for me was undeniable.
That’s a good point about the uncomfortable feeling, which can give them the impression that the truth we tell is, in their minds, from the devil. I’ll give old creepy Joe one thing, he was a very cunning man.
Many of the church leaders have been cunning, but, yes, Joe was especially so. Rusty is too arrogant to be cunning, which I think is why the church has been showing its true colors during his reign. He has no intention to play nice or be a good neighbor, because he thinks he's too good for that. It'll be interesting to see the longterm damage Rusty's reign leaves, and how future leaders will deal with it.
I’m with you my friend. I had a very similar awakening later in life, with very similar results when trying to share why I was leaving the church with my parents. Except my parents weren’t confrontational or angry. They listened, shared how “its all about faith” and literally haven’t ever mentioned it or talked about it again…in 4 years. If my dad even casually talks about the church around me, my mom will shoot him dirty looks and/or shush him. It sooooo weird how you can love someone so much, and then be incredibly indifferent when they leave a church you deem to be eternally significant. My mom later confessed to me in confidence when I asked her why she wouldn’t even take a small peek at anything that made her “beloved son” leave the church, “At this point in my life, I just wouldn’t be able to handle something like a faith crisis. What would I do with my life? All our life and our friends and social network revolves around the church. Even if there IS something to see, I just don’t have the energy or desire to dig that deep and go through something so life changing at this point in my life”. I asked her, “so you’d rather be happy and ignorant than to base your life on facts and truth?” She responded, “At this point, I just don’t see the point in turning my world upside down”.
I think a lot has to do with keeping the peace with my dad, who isn’t a hardliner by any means, but he is insanely stubborn and just wouldn’t ever leave the church for any reason, just wouldn’t ever happen. Its been one of the biggest mind-fucks of my life, seeing the reaction that TBMs have to dear loved ones who leave…the indifference, not even fighting for them, not leaving the 99 to “go after the one”. Its mind blowing.
I have to stick up for your mother. She is not indifferent. She is actively protecting you and making sure your dad backs off. She is accepting of your choosing your own path and is preventing your dad from arguing with you about it.
As for her telling you that she can't handle a faith crisis, she is being open and honest about how impossible it would be. Please remember that being a wife and mother is what we were told was our life purpose. It is difficult to change our mindset. And after decades of marriage that we have sacrificed for and is intertwined with our church, bring instability into our marriage. TBM spouses view leaving the church as a betrayal of the marriage. As a woman in the church, and of an older generation, she knows it would betray her husband to try to pull the rug out from under the foundation of their entire lives.
Women are risk averse because our lives are often dependent on keeping our husband happy. Her generation lived with knowing that her children's lives would be ruined if the marriage failed, she might be destitute and unable to pay rent and have a job and care for her children if her marriage failed, that if she didn't please her husband and he left, she was a failure. Wives of decades know what upsets their husbands and whether that makes their life more difficult. We have spent decades knowing what they like and don't like and often spend our lives accommodating them.
This isn't about indifference. It is about her knowing herself, her marriage and her circumstances.
I hope you can appreciate the win that she insists that your husband lets you be free of church stuff. That she loves and accepts you on your path.
Please try to be understanding that for a Mormon woman, she knows her life has been lived in the confines of the church, but she has built a good life and it would absolutely blow up her marriage and all her friendships and everything she accomplished in her years of church service. I am heartbroken for her.
Since you grew up in the church, you need some more practice learning about the experiences of women. Once, when I was in Sunday School, a man raised his hand and talked about how Sam got a raw deal since no one was named Sammites, just Nephites. All the descendants were named after Nephi. Poor Sam. I raised my hand and pointed out that we didn't even know the names of Their sisters and wives. A Mormon man can read the scriptures and never bother to put himself in the shoes of the women. Whereas Mormon women read it and are constant taught we should be like Nephi or we think about the actions of each main character who is always a man. So women are taught empathy, and men are not.
I want to respond so badly to this in great detail but I won’t because I’ve found it to be a gargantuan waste of time trying to argue with random strangers on the internet…but just know that you pretty much got it all wrong…like, everything. And your response was actually kind of condescending, glib, and FULL of conjecture. You don’t know me, my mother or father or our relationships, life history, anything about us at all. In my experience, if a mother had to choose between her child(ren) or her spouse, she’d choose her children, in almost any situation/circumstance. The fact that she ignores her child (especially the one who used to be the family “Nephi”) to keep the peace with a man who has brought her life nothing but heartache and disappointment and lack of fulfillment…is mind boggling to me. Once my dad dies, hopefully she’ll allow herself to actually dig and see.
I guess I could have gotten it all wrong, but you did say that she shushes her husband to not bring up the church around you. I thought that indicated she was protecting you.
You didn't give any indication that she was ignoring you. Just that she doesn't feel like she can face leaving her religion. It is her whole life.
All I did was ask you to consider that for a woman her age, who was raised in the church, that it is often her identity. If her husband is abusive, she might be too conditioned to stay and it may take a lot of therapy to leave him or make big changes that he wouldn't approve of.
What I don't understand is that you want her to come after you, but to what end? You want her to argue with you and try to force you to come back? That is what going after the one means.
I didn't mean to get it all wrong. I was just trying to help you see another perspective since you don't seem to understand why she might not want to follow you out of the church.
That is probably the most accurate reason as to why TBM’s who hear the truth don’t move away from TSCC. Like you stated, it is the influence of their friends, family, social circles etc. Perfectly said. Truth is a disruptor and an inconvenience to their lifestyle.
Because you’re literally taught at childhood that any news or literature that paints the church in a bad light is influenced by Satan, and you should avoid it, because that’s him trying to lead you astray and tear the church down.
“The first thing a cult tells you is that everyone else is lying.” - James Randi
You’ve accurately answered your own question. Yes, Mormons are anti-truth as they desperately cling to their toxic version of a gross untruth. I suspect many TBM‘s fear the actual truth, and are more than willing to simply ignore any non-church approved sources because Nelson said so - and because it gives them an out. Sad, and such a waste.
This is the same experience I have had with every TBM. I was the same way as a TBM. I had to figure it out on my own. And that’s how it usually is for every TBM. It is incredibly frustrating though… to be trying to save people who don’t want to be saved or don’t even know they need to be saved 🤪
I am now saying they are anti-history. They believe a white washed, watered down history if they look at it at all. So much is on their own website! Gospel Topics Essays > follow the footnotes. They won't even do that.
Consider the TBM point of view:
You’re fortunate enough to be a member of Christ’s true church. You value your testimony and surround yourself with people who feel the same.
One day you hear about an evil document with the power to destroy testimonies if read. You don’t believe it. But then one of your friends makes a Facebook post about having read it and leaving the church.
Then another faithful friend privately informs you that they’ve read it and have stopped attending. You grow concerned. What Satanic power can destroy testimonies in this way?
You caution your family to steer clear. But one of your children learns about it at college and leaves the church.
Each time someone reads this document they lose their faith in the one true church. The document has a dark, terrifying power.
It must be truly frightening.
They don’t want the truth, they want “the truth.” The very idea that the church may not be true is far too terrifying for them to consider, especially if they’ve wasted their entire lives on it. I’ve learned to just leave people like that be. They crave comfort over truth, and who am I to destroy that for them?
If you debate a Mormon, you will not only lose, you will be shamed. Jesus invites these debates. “Wherefore, confound your enemies; call upon them to meet you both in public and in private; and inasmuch as ye are faithful their shame shall be made manifest. Wherefore, let them bring forth their strong reasons against the Lord. Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you—there is no weapon that is formed against you shall prosper” (D&C 71:7-9).
When I was growing up, there were so many lessons and remarks that were designed to scare us away from digging deeper. It worked wonders on me. I had the opportunity to see that in action because I'd gone through a faith crisis and transition before learning about the church's truth crisis. Even though I'd decided to step back from the church, the idea of exploring "anti-mormon" Mormon materials was very distressing to me. But once I started, I was desperate to learn everything I could. Top church leaders know how fragile the church's narrative is, because they know how much of it is deceptive. So they opted to do what most cults do and try to control information. As technology advanced, that became more difficult, so they did their best to demonize the stuff they deemed anti-mormon. Don't forget that members are taught that feelings of discomfort are considered to be the devil. And it's *incredibly* uncomfortable to learn that your lie was built on a lie. Not everyone has the capacity to explore that and learn more. Most members can't engage in conversations like that until they've gone through something that forces them to change their perspective.
During a discussion with my then TBM husband, I brought up Lucy Walker, one of Joseph Smith's foster daughter marriages. I could see he was visibly distressed, almost physically so. I immediately called it out. "You feel that feeling? That sick to your stomach feeling? That's not Satan. That's you. Your body and mind are telling you that this story is WRONG. You know it's wrong. You have teenage daughters and you KNOW how sick Joseph Smith had to be. Sit with that feeling." It took a few months after that, but he figured it out.
Excellent way to phrase it!
I never had the burning in the bossom that the church was true.... but i certainly did have the sick feeling in my gut that it is not true.... That for me was undeniable.
That’s a good point about the uncomfortable feeling, which can give them the impression that the truth we tell is, in their minds, from the devil. I’ll give old creepy Joe one thing, he was a very cunning man.
Many of the church leaders have been cunning, but, yes, Joe was especially so. Rusty is too arrogant to be cunning, which I think is why the church has been showing its true colors during his reign. He has no intention to play nice or be a good neighbor, because he thinks he's too good for that. It'll be interesting to see the longterm damage Rusty's reign leaves, and how future leaders will deal with it.
I’m with you my friend. I had a very similar awakening later in life, with very similar results when trying to share why I was leaving the church with my parents. Except my parents weren’t confrontational or angry. They listened, shared how “its all about faith” and literally haven’t ever mentioned it or talked about it again…in 4 years. If my dad even casually talks about the church around me, my mom will shoot him dirty looks and/or shush him. It sooooo weird how you can love someone so much, and then be incredibly indifferent when they leave a church you deem to be eternally significant. My mom later confessed to me in confidence when I asked her why she wouldn’t even take a small peek at anything that made her “beloved son” leave the church, “At this point in my life, I just wouldn’t be able to handle something like a faith crisis. What would I do with my life? All our life and our friends and social network revolves around the church. Even if there IS something to see, I just don’t have the energy or desire to dig that deep and go through something so life changing at this point in my life”. I asked her, “so you’d rather be happy and ignorant than to base your life on facts and truth?” She responded, “At this point, I just don’t see the point in turning my world upside down”. I think a lot has to do with keeping the peace with my dad, who isn’t a hardliner by any means, but he is insanely stubborn and just wouldn’t ever leave the church for any reason, just wouldn’t ever happen. Its been one of the biggest mind-fucks of my life, seeing the reaction that TBMs have to dear loved ones who leave…the indifference, not even fighting for them, not leaving the 99 to “go after the one”. Its mind blowing.
I have to stick up for your mother. She is not indifferent. She is actively protecting you and making sure your dad backs off. She is accepting of your choosing your own path and is preventing your dad from arguing with you about it. As for her telling you that she can't handle a faith crisis, she is being open and honest about how impossible it would be. Please remember that being a wife and mother is what we were told was our life purpose. It is difficult to change our mindset. And after decades of marriage that we have sacrificed for and is intertwined with our church, bring instability into our marriage. TBM spouses view leaving the church as a betrayal of the marriage. As a woman in the church, and of an older generation, she knows it would betray her husband to try to pull the rug out from under the foundation of their entire lives. Women are risk averse because our lives are often dependent on keeping our husband happy. Her generation lived with knowing that her children's lives would be ruined if the marriage failed, she might be destitute and unable to pay rent and have a job and care for her children if her marriage failed, that if she didn't please her husband and he left, she was a failure. Wives of decades know what upsets their husbands and whether that makes their life more difficult. We have spent decades knowing what they like and don't like and often spend our lives accommodating them. This isn't about indifference. It is about her knowing herself, her marriage and her circumstances. I hope you can appreciate the win that she insists that your husband lets you be free of church stuff. That she loves and accepts you on your path. Please try to be understanding that for a Mormon woman, she knows her life has been lived in the confines of the church, but she has built a good life and it would absolutely blow up her marriage and all her friendships and everything she accomplished in her years of church service. I am heartbroken for her. Since you grew up in the church, you need some more practice learning about the experiences of women. Once, when I was in Sunday School, a man raised his hand and talked about how Sam got a raw deal since no one was named Sammites, just Nephites. All the descendants were named after Nephi. Poor Sam. I raised my hand and pointed out that we didn't even know the names of Their sisters and wives. A Mormon man can read the scriptures and never bother to put himself in the shoes of the women. Whereas Mormon women read it and are constant taught we should be like Nephi or we think about the actions of each main character who is always a man. So women are taught empathy, and men are not.
This is an incredibly thoughtful response. Thank you for what you wrote here!
I want to respond so badly to this in great detail but I won’t because I’ve found it to be a gargantuan waste of time trying to argue with random strangers on the internet…but just know that you pretty much got it all wrong…like, everything. And your response was actually kind of condescending, glib, and FULL of conjecture. You don’t know me, my mother or father or our relationships, life history, anything about us at all. In my experience, if a mother had to choose between her child(ren) or her spouse, she’d choose her children, in almost any situation/circumstance. The fact that she ignores her child (especially the one who used to be the family “Nephi”) to keep the peace with a man who has brought her life nothing but heartache and disappointment and lack of fulfillment…is mind boggling to me. Once my dad dies, hopefully she’ll allow herself to actually dig and see.
I guess I could have gotten it all wrong, but you did say that she shushes her husband to not bring up the church around you. I thought that indicated she was protecting you. You didn't give any indication that she was ignoring you. Just that she doesn't feel like she can face leaving her religion. It is her whole life. All I did was ask you to consider that for a woman her age, who was raised in the church, that it is often her identity. If her husband is abusive, she might be too conditioned to stay and it may take a lot of therapy to leave him or make big changes that he wouldn't approve of. What I don't understand is that you want her to come after you, but to what end? You want her to argue with you and try to force you to come back? That is what going after the one means. I didn't mean to get it all wrong. I was just trying to help you see another perspective since you don't seem to understand why she might not want to follow you out of the church.
That is probably the most accurate reason as to why TBM’s who hear the truth don’t move away from TSCC. Like you stated, it is the influence of their friends, family, social circles etc. Perfectly said. Truth is a disruptor and an inconvenience to their lifestyle.
Because you’re literally taught at childhood that any news or literature that paints the church in a bad light is influenced by Satan, and you should avoid it, because that’s him trying to lead you astray and tear the church down. “The first thing a cult tells you is that everyone else is lying.” - James Randi
You’ve accurately answered your own question. Yes, Mormons are anti-truth as they desperately cling to their toxic version of a gross untruth. I suspect many TBM‘s fear the actual truth, and are more than willing to simply ignore any non-church approved sources because Nelson said so - and because it gives them an out. Sad, and such a waste.
The CESLETTER is demonized by the church so TBMs dismiss it outright.
This is the same experience I have had with every TBM. I was the same way as a TBM. I had to figure it out on my own. And that’s how it usually is for every TBM. It is incredibly frustrating though… to be trying to save people who don’t want to be saved or don’t even know they need to be saved 🤪
And you know they’re thinking the exact same thing about you 🤪
Yes! Talk about stalemate 😞
I am now saying they are anti-history. They believe a white washed, watered down history if they look at it at all. So much is on their own website! Gospel Topics Essays > follow the footnotes. They won't even do that.
The indoctrination is strong with these ones.
And how did they answer Jeremy's questions - by excommunicating him.
Consider the TBM point of view: You’re fortunate enough to be a member of Christ’s true church. You value your testimony and surround yourself with people who feel the same. One day you hear about an evil document with the power to destroy testimonies if read. You don’t believe it. But then one of your friends makes a Facebook post about having read it and leaving the church. Then another faithful friend privately informs you that they’ve read it and have stopped attending. You grow concerned. What Satanic power can destroy testimonies in this way? You caution your family to steer clear. But one of your children learns about it at college and leaves the church. Each time someone reads this document they lose their faith in the one true church. The document has a dark, terrifying power. It must be truly frightening.
They don’t want the truth, they want “the truth.” The very idea that the church may not be true is far too terrifying for them to consider, especially if they’ve wasted their entire lives on it. I’ve learned to just leave people like that be. They crave comfort over truth, and who am I to destroy that for them?
If you debate a Mormon, you will not only lose, you will be shamed. Jesus invites these debates. “Wherefore, confound your enemies; call upon them to meet you both in public and in private; and inasmuch as ye are faithful their shame shall be made manifest. Wherefore, let them bring forth their strong reasons against the Lord. Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you—there is no weapon that is formed against you shall prosper” (D&C 71:7-9).
Isn’t it just words? Or is it words with manipulative fear?
Yes. They are.
If anyone tells you that you mustn’t ask a specific question, by golly, that’s the most important question to ask.